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Ouranos
2010-02-13, 03:20 PM
So, because I keep seeing people talk about the dreaded dump stat, I decided to post up my old group's house rule for stat rolling at character creation. It tends to result in better overall stats and greater flexibility and choice of those stats.

You roll 5d6 instead of 4, and drop the lowest 2 dice. This yields better averages, but still keeps the max 18 before racials. You do this 7 times and keep the highest 6 of the scores. Now, after this, you are given a 2 point bonus to go into any stat of your choice that is BELOW 16 AFTER racial mods. This allows people a little more freedom in how their stats sit togethor, and gives you a better chance at being better at secondary tasks. Yes, it helps optimisers alot more, but the less experienced can now also play monks and paladins without being punished as severely.

Dante & Vergil
2010-02-13, 03:49 PM
How would someone determine the statistics for something like this?

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 04:12 PM
This is an interesting variation on the traditional roll 4d6 in order, but also has a significantly higher power level.

Eighteens would be normal for primary stats, probably, and on a whole the system would be equivalent to 36 or higher point buy.

In playing these games, do your PCs seem to be able to overcome level appropriate challenges without optimization?

Also, the point of the dump stat is that you have a lowest stat. This isn't a bad thing, since it reflects that people with low charisma become fighters/barbarians/wizard/not bards. You seem to have "fixed" this by simply making every stat high.

Zexion
2010-02-13, 04:38 PM
If you are playing a one-man campaign, then this is an interesting alternative to 50 Point Buy (what I usually use). On the other hand, it will be hard to explain how your wizard is strong enough to win a boxing match without a single injury, dodge lightning-quick attacks, and still decided to study wizardry in a small, cramped space when he could easily run an extremely profitable business.

Temotei
2010-02-13, 04:59 PM
If you are playing a one-man campaign, then this is an interesting alternative to 50 Point Buy (what I usually use). On the other hand, it will be hard to explain how your wizard is strong enough to win a boxing match without a single injury, dodge lightning-quick attacks, and still decided to study wizardry in a small, cramped space when he could easily run an extremely profitable business.

Not really. A wizard can do anything. :smallcool:

Harperfan7
2010-02-13, 05:08 PM
I rolled and got 18, 18, 18, 14, 13, 13.

Don't you think that's too high? It might be fun to play a solo campaign with a character that good, but with a group it would just get boring.

(I have to admit, rolling those felt like it was my birthday...or not pulling out. :smallamused:)

Temotei
2010-02-13, 05:35 PM
I rolled and got 18, 18, 18, 14, 13, 13.

Don't you think that's too high? It might be fun to play a solo campaign with a character that good, but with a group it would just get boring.

(I have to admit, rolling those felt like it was my birthday...or not pulling out. :smallamused:)

Not if you balanced the encounters to go against that, or if the players aren't experienced.

paddyfool
2010-02-13, 05:43 PM
Hi Ouranos,

I just tried rolling 10 sets of stats using your system in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7883228&posted=1#post7883228). (Apologies for the first blank post on that thread - I must have done something wrong, although I swear I didn't preview). The overall results were as follows (adding the +2 to the highest stat below 17 16, assuming no racials):

(17,16,14,13,12,11)
(17,16,15,13,10,10)
(18,17,17,17,14,12)
(17,16,13,10,8,8)
(17,13,12,12,11,11)
(17,16,15,14,14,11)
(18,17,16,16,14,11)
(17,17,14,14,13,11)
(17,17,13,13,12,9)
(17,16,15,15,14,11)

So... ten times out of ten, I got at least one stat at 17 or 18, including one roll with two 18s and one with an 18 and three 17s. And there's still a risk of dump stats, as seen by that one time I rolled two 8s.

It's an interesting system, but I don't think it resolves the problems with die-rolling for stat generation.

EDIT: Apologies for minor corrections; I thought it was <=16, not <16 previously.

Kumori
2010-02-13, 06:37 PM
I just did some math and here's what I found:
3d6 = 10.5 average
4d6b3 = ~12.24 average
5d6b3 = ~13.43 average
5d6b3, with +2 to one = ~13.76 average.

The difference doesn't seem too substantial to me, but it does result in far better consistency among stats.
I didn't factor in the 7th roll of 5d6b3 that you allow, because I can't think of a timely way to do it.

Melayl
2010-02-13, 08:40 PM
I do 3d6, drop the lowest, and add 8. Then I let them move points where ever they want to. Yeah, scores do get a little high, but they're heroes, right?

Kumori
2010-02-13, 09:43 PM
I do 3d6, drop the lowest, and add 8. Then I let them move points where ever they want to. Yeah, scores do get a little high, but they're heroes, right?

3d6b2+8 = ~16.46 average. That's huge!

Egiam
2010-02-13, 09:55 PM
And this is why I always have my players use point buy.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-13, 09:56 PM
3d6b2+8 = ~16.46 average. That's huge!

That's nothing; we often do 4d6, reroll 1s, and drop the lowest. Sometimes we even get a free 18.

The group I play with likes playing in high-power campaigns...obviously. :smalltongue:

Egiam
2010-02-13, 10:01 PM
Eh... I like more gritty games. As DM, I usually have my players just use 25 point buy, then pit them against encounters with EL equal to the average class level +1. If I want it to be more epic, I give them action points.

Kumori
2010-02-13, 10:09 PM
That's nothing; we often do 4d6, reroll 1s, and drop the lowest. Sometimes we even get a free 18.

The group I play with likes playing in high-power campaigns...obviously. :smalltongue:

That scenario gives an average of 13.2, no factoring the free 18 in.

Ouranos
2010-02-13, 10:16 PM
Point buy just ENCOURAGES dump statting. Yes, my system does result in higher averages, but those 2 points that can be moved around and have to go in lower stats make up for the weaknesses of the classes like monk and paladin that need too many stats. And it does result in more consistant stats because the randomness of it is lowered some. But we would tend to make the games a little tougher then by the MM. Things like undead always receiving max hit points on all their hit die. We also tended to use more numerous weak enemies and swarm fight for several rounds, making con really important (as one newb wizard we had found out when he dumped his only 10 point stat into con, lol). Magic items tended to be a little rarer then normal. That and player mistakes became alot more forgiving with this system when you have afew extra stat points to save your ass for NOT being an optimiser (I'm the only one in any of the groups I've played that's actually half decent at it)

Kumori
2010-02-13, 10:21 PM
I'm not trying to say any one system of stat generation is better or worse than any others. I'm watching this thread because I like seeing the various ways that people generate their scores, and I like doing the math. It shows a general comparison of the power of characters each method can create.

Agi Hammerthief
2010-02-13, 10:27 PM
I prefer point buy

why use dice in the first place when you start cheating to pimp the results?


whats the obsession with rolling d6s for stats anyways?
if you want a minimum modifier of +0 you can just let them roll 3d4 + 6

gives you results from 9-18 with a nice bell curve centered around 13,5

2d4+10 => 12 to 18, bell curve around 15

1d8+10 => 11 to 18, linear probability

Melayl
2010-02-13, 10:48 PM
3d6b2+8 = ~16.46 average. That's huge!

It is, but our games (when we get the chance to play) tend to be a bit...brutal. The last one led a group of 6 PCs against encounters 1-2 above their ECL, with large numbers of opponents in each. We had one fatality and a few near-fatalities. It was fun!

Besides, in our world, 1/4 - 1/3 of the populace has at least one PC level, so the characters need to stand out a bit.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-13, 10:52 PM
That scenario gives an average of 13.2, no factoring the free 18 in.

I don't have an answer for you then. We always seemed to be able to get very high results. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, or perhaps we were just quite lucky. :smalltongue:


why use dice in the first place when you start cheating to pimp the results?

The organic, unplanned results from rolling feels more fun to me for some reason. It's just a personal thing, though. Understand what you're saying.

Ouranos
2010-02-13, 11:33 PM
Yeah. To me a character feels more natural with oddball stats, or more heroic for having alot of hig stats. Made me feel more unique in the game world to be fighting not 2 orcs at lvl 1, but 3-4. that and my dice are always hot for stats, even using STANDARD roll system I usually averaged about 13, was always funny when the fighter would have better charisma then the rogue, or the paladin with better dex then the bararian...

Temotei
2010-02-13, 11:49 PM
Point buy is boring to me. I like the randomness of rolling for statistics. :smallsmile:

I also like my heroes to be high-powered machines, but then again, I like to tailor high-powered encounters too. :smallbiggrin:

Ashtagon
2010-02-14, 02:39 AM
3d6 six times, in order, when doing "commoner" games

For high powered games, I just give them an array of 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 17.

For mid-range games, 4d6 drop lowest seven times, drop lowest, arrange as you like.

Kensen
2010-02-14, 03:26 AM
The rolling method creates slightly stronger characters, but it doesn't really address the dump stat problem. If for example you happen to get 18,17,16,15,14,14, and one of the 14s ends up being the Cha score of a fighter, Cha is still a dump stat. The only difference is that your character's dump stats are better than normally. Basically, 14 becomes the new 8.

Mathis
2010-02-14, 04:54 AM
Eh... I like more gritty games. As DM, I usually have my players just use 25 point buy, then pit them against encounters with EL equal to the average class level +1. If I want it to be more epic, I give them action points.


Challenge Ratings are for whimps! My DM doesn't bother with EL or CR or whatever, the players should be able to survive whatever encounter thrown against them (within reasonable bounds), this might ofcourse mean they are going to have to run or use the terrain creatively but hey, it's all fun.

In our experience, meeting monsters and challenges that are "appropriate" for our level means a push-over, an almost guaranteed win unless we fail at rolling. And no, this is not because our DM does not use monsters and their abilities creatively.

And we use the standard 4d6b3 rolling method. 6 rolls, reroll 1s.
For play-by-posts I prefer to use 32 point buy.

UglyPanda
2010-02-14, 10:52 AM
5d6b3 is about equivalent to 38 point buy. Adding two points to a stat below 16 is about four more points. So this new system the OP proposes is about 42 point buy. It's slightly more because of the seventh stat, but I'm too lazy to calculate that.


Statistical probability chart for 5d6b3
{table=head]Stat |Probability |# out of 7776 possibilities
3|0.000128601 |1
4|0.000643004 |5
5|0.001929012 |15
6|0.005272634 |41
7|0.011574074 |90
8|0.02186214 |170
9|0.038065844 |296
10|0.060442387 |470
11|0.085519547 |665
12|0.113297325 |881
13|0.135673868 |1055
14|0.148533951 |1155
15|0.142875514 |1111
16|0.12024177 |935
17|0.078446502 |610
18|0.035493827 |276[/table]
I used Excel and a few odd equations to do the math a couple months ago.