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Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-13, 04:53 PM
On the forum when talking about the tier 1 classes you always find mention of CoD-zilla; the C part of the CoD-zilla has always been clear to me, a cleric which using self-buffs and maybe DMM transforms into a melee monster that outfights the fighter.

Now the D part of CoD-zilla is pretty unclear to me, is it the same principlie using self buffs to become a melee monster or does Druid-zilla uses different tactics than a cleric-zilla.?

So can anybody answer my question please?

Also my first thought when I heard Druid-zilla for the first time was a druid wildshaped into a Battle titan a literal druidzila

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 04:55 PM
Same principle. Cast bite of the wereX in combat and maybe some long term buffs cast out of combat (Venomfire, GMF, Barkskin, Heart of the X, Primal X). Turn into large animal. Eat faces. Have pet which eats faces with you.

d13
2010-02-13, 04:56 PM
And still be a Full Caster while you eat faces.

Tavar
2010-02-13, 04:57 PM
First off, your animal companion is roughly equivalent to a fighter. Then, add in wildshape, and you can become as good if not better than a fighter yourself. Then add in spells, and you can either buff you and your animal companion up, or summon even more things to beat down others.

UglyPanda
2010-02-13, 04:57 PM
What everyone else said. Also remember that your animal companion shares buffs with you. Properly buffed*, your animal companion alone outfights the fighter. The Druid just relaxes or summons more face-eating animals.



*Sometimes not even necessary.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 04:58 PM
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8664/druidob.jpg

Alternatively, have your animal companion charge in, summon something, cast a spell, turn into something...etc. etc.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-13, 04:58 PM
Really? hmm I was kinda hoping it was something at least differen
Though you can make a literal druidzilla while wildshaping into a Battletitan.

also is there a way for druids to ger DMM?

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 05:00 PM
also is there a way for druids to ger DMM?

They take a 1 level cleric or PRC dip. It isn't always worth it for a druid. Many of the best druid buffs last a long time anyway, and dipping outside druid hurts your spellcasting, your pet and your wildshape.

Volkov
2010-02-13, 05:09 PM
The answer is simple, you can turn into godzilla and stomp the BBEG flat under your 55,000 ton weight. The Clericzilla cannot.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-13, 05:12 PM
Technically, a Druid 20 with the right spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) can take and use DMM unhindered. Get some Unguent of Timelessness and get dozens or even hundreds of turn attempts ready ahead of time.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 05:13 PM
The answer is simple, you can turn into godzilla and stomp the BBEG flat under your 55,000 ton weight. The Clericzilla cannot.

Are you allowed to turn into a blue whale in mid-air? I thought you had to turn into something specific to the environment (just like summoning spells can't summon something that will die imminently).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-13, 05:14 PM
They take a 1 level cleric or PRC dip. It isn't always worth it for a druid. Many of the best druid buffs last a long time anyway, and dipping outside druid hurts your spellcasting, your pet and your wildshape.

How about a dip into prestige paladin? IIRC it gives turn undead at first level and advances spellcasting.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 05:16 PM
How about a dip into prestige paladin? IIRC it gives turn undead at first level and advances spellcasting.

Alignment impossiblity aside, where would you get Protection from Evil?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-13, 05:18 PM
Alignment impossiblity aside, where would you get Protection from Evil?

Good point, I just checked the SRD, althoug some readings of extra spell might let you get Protection from evil right?

Volkov
2010-02-13, 05:19 PM
Are you allowed to turn into a blue whale in mid-air? I thought you had to turn into something specific to the environment (just like summoning spells can't summon something that will die imminently).

Godzilla can shoot radioactive particle beams, a whale can't. So there's no point in becoming a whale, especially because in one movie, godzilla flew with his atomic ray.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 05:21 PM
Good point, I just checked the SRD, althoug some readings of extra spell might let you get Protection from evil right?True, but on second glance, Turn Undead is a prerequisite for Prestige Pally, so that's out.

The normal paths to DMM Druids go through Sacred Exorcist (which also has a spell list problem, but there are dozens of ways around that) or Cleric dips (which are actually really good, what with their 2-3 Domain Abilities/Feats, turning and access to Cleric wands).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-13, 05:22 PM
Prestige Paladin has Turn Undead as a prerequisite. Druid is powerful enough without Divine Metamagic anyway, Cleric-zillas need to use it because Divine Power and Divine Favor only last a round/level, whereas Wild Shape lasts all day by itself.

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 05:29 PM
The normal paths to DMM Druids go through Sacred Exorcist (which also has a spell list problem, but there are dozens of ways around that) or Cleric dips (which are actually really good, what with their 2-3 Domain Abilities/Feats, turning and access to Cleric wands).

They are OK. Remember that even sacred exorcist is a hit to your pet and wildshape.

Personally, if I wanted to be a Druid-Zilla and felt like retarding my casting, pet and WS for permanent buffs and free feats, I'd dip monk 1 before cleric 1, for wisdom to AC and free Improved Grapple, both of which help melee druids a lot. But Cleric 1/Druid 19, Monk 1/Druid 19, and Druid 20 are all playable in any tier 1 party.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 05:35 PM
First off, your animal companion is roughly equivalent to a fighter. Then, add in wildshape, and you can become as good if not better than a fighter yourself. Then add in spells, and you can either buff you and your animal companion up, or summon even more things to beat down others.

I always found this explanation of Dzilla a little amusing, since fighter gets so much criticism for being a fighter, but Dzilla gets high fives for being a fighterx3.

What makes Dzilla so baller isn't that he can be a very competent melee fighter (anyone can do that), it's his full complement of spells that are ridiculously good. If you pick through enough books, a druid has got virtually the same spells a wizard does, but he doesn't have to rely on his teammates to finish off an incapacitated enemy.

He also is one of the most SAD classes after level 5, thanks to wildshape & that one really silly feat that lets him cast spells while wildshaped. This means he gets a pretty solid number of skill points, thanks to int being a tertiary stat, combined with an initiate feat and an already decent selection of skills, he can make a halfway decent skill monkey.

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 05:41 PM
Well, fighters are good in situations that call for fighters. The druid is a better fighter than a fighter on the days when a fighter is needed, and a scout, or healer, or diviner, or item crafter, or flying nuker, or some other crazy thing on days when they aren't.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 05:53 PM
The druid is a better fighter than a fighter on the days when a fighter is needed

I disagree. An ubercharger does tons more damage, and with reach, a spiked chain and great cleave, kills everything in a 20' radius. A druid can't do that when mimicking a fighter.

I would describe a druid as a competent melee combatant with minimal resource expenditure- a handful of long term buffs, one use of wildshape, maybe a feat. It's all the other crap a druid gets that makes him such a badass. His battlefield control spells, debuffs, and buffs are on par with the wizard's. He has access to virtually the same movement modes as a wizard, too. But when it comes to pure melee damage output & lockdown, a druid has to waste a ton of spells and feats to do it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-13, 06:01 PM
A Druid may not be able to wipe out an entire encounter in a single swing, but he can summon a few lions, Animal Growth his lions/companion/self, and single-handedly defeat an equal number of opponents via melee. Plus the times when the Fighter is needed are far fewer than the times when he's riding on the other characters' coattails.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 06:09 PM
A Druid may not be able to wipe out an entire encounter in a single swing, but he can summon a few lions, Animal Growth his lions/companion/self, and single-handedly defeat an equal number of opponents via melee.

So? He's still doing the same crap a fighter does. When someone asks "what's Dzilla?", invariably, there are a half dozen people that cream their pants over how druids can waste daily resources to be a halfway decent fighter.


Plus the times when the Fighter is needed are far fewer than the times when he's riding on the other characters' coattails.

I'd put it this way: a party needs a mediocre fighter, someone who can do damage, to play clean up. A druid can do that by default. Then he comes with full casting from a spell list that's almost as awesome as the wizard's. A druid gets the buffs of a cleric and the everything else of a wizard. It's nuts.

Turning the druid into a good fighter is a waste of time and resources, though, because the resources are far better spent on things that aren't easily replicated by "I attack; I attack; I attack."

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 06:13 PM
I disagree. An ubercharger does tons more damage, and with reach, a spiked chain and great cleave, kills everything in a 20' radius. A druid can't do that when mimicking a fighter.

Yes, but chargers have their own limitations that the druid doesn't, The ubercharger is one specific example of fighter found only in highly optimized games, and the druid while mimicking a fighter can do things that the ubercharger cannot do. Even the ubercharger cannot engage and lock down 2 opponents 50 feet away from each other, like the druid and his T-Rex pet can. Uberchargers are vastly more gear dependent, etc....

Yes, an ubercharger is better in his niche. So what. The druid while in full fighter mode with the lions share of his resources dedicated to combat buffs is still more versatile than a charger, and is better than more typical fighters through his entire level range after wildshape.

sofawall
2010-02-13, 06:15 PM
Are you allowed to turn into a blue whale in mid-air? I thought you had to turn into something specific to the environment (just like summoning spells can't summon something that will die imminently).

The only things that have to appear in their proper environment are Conjuration (Summoning) (and maybe Calling) spells. Animal Companions have to be appropriate to the campaign, but Alter Self (and by extension, Wildshape) has no such restriction.


I disagree. An ubercharger does tons more damage, and with reach, a spiked chain and great cleave, kills everything in a 20' radius.
On an ubercharger? Spiked Chain means no multiplier from Lance, and Great Cleave stops you from charging when you use it, kinda ruining your schtick.

Maybe you mean a simple charger, not an ubercharger.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 06:30 PM
On an ubercharger? Spiked Chain means no multiplier from Lance, and Great Cleave stops you from charging when you use it, kinda ruining your schtick.

You can't ride a mount when in a frenzy, anyway. And charging stops you from charging. There's no problem with turning into a whirlwind of death at the end of it.


Yes, but chargers have their own limitations that the druid doesn't, The ubercharger is one specific example of fighter found only in highly optimized games, and the druid while mimicking a fighter can do things that the ubercharger cannot do. Even the ubercharger cannot engage and lock down 2 opponents 50 feet away from each other, like the druid and his T-Rex pet can. Uberchargers are vastly more gear dependent, etc....

Yes, an ubercharger is better in his niche. So what. The druid while in full fighter mode with the lions share of his resources dedicated to combat buffs is still more versatile than a charger, and is better than more typical fighters through his entire level range after wildshape.

Could you please go back and re-read my posts? This is exactly what I'm saying. Look, even the OP was confused (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7883049&postcount=7) by everyone's druidgasm, when all it amounted to was this:


http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8664/druidob.jpg

Alternatively, have your animal companion charge in, summon something, cast a spell, turn into something...etc. etc.


On an ubercharger? Spiked Chain means no multiplier from Lance, and Great Cleave stops you from charging when you use it, kinda ruining your schtick.

You can't ride a mount when in a frenzy, anyway. And charging stops you from charging. There's no problem with turning into a whirlwind of death at the end of it.

sofawall
2010-02-13, 06:56 PM
You can't ride a mount when in a frenzy, anyway. And charging stops you from charging. There's no problem with turning into a whirlwind of death at the end of it.

A) I got the first time, B) You can ride a mount in battle, especially with a lance, and C) Another multiplier is probably going to add up to more than +7 damage.

faceroll
2010-02-13, 07:05 PM
A) I got the first time, B) You can ride a mount in battle, especially with a lance, and C) Another multiplier is probably going to add up to more than +7 damage.

Are you familiar with the frenzied berserker?

sofawall
2010-02-13, 08:43 PM
Are you familiar with the frenzied berserker?

I am, and there are ways to avoid going into a frenzy. I suggest using them.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-13, 09:20 PM
So? He's still doing the same crap a fighter does. When someone asks "what's Dzilla?", invariably, there are a half dozen people that cream their pants over how druids can waste daily resources to be a halfway decent fighter.



I'd put it this way: a party needs a mediocre fighter, someone who can do damage, to play clean up. A druid can do that by default. Then he comes with full casting from a spell list that's almost as awesome as the wizard's. A druid gets the buffs of a cleric and the everything else of a wizard. It's nuts.

Turning the druid into a good fighter is a waste of time and resources, though, because the resources are far better spent on things that aren't easily replicated by "I attack; I attack; I attack."

Halfway decent fighter? A riding dog is about equivalent to a fighter, and that's not even counting the druid's summons+buffs+coolness.

Azernak0
2010-02-13, 10:57 PM
A Charger is very good, but I would still back up the Druid for being more powerful. The suggested Charger Character requires a high number of feats in order to pull off the Frenzied Berserker, Spiked Chain, and still count as a Charger:

1:Power Attack
F1: Cleave
F2: EWP: SC
Free: Pounce
3: Destructive Rage
Free: Improved Trip
6: Intimidating Rage
9: Improved Bull Rush
12: Shock Trooper
15: Great Cleave
18: Leap Attack

So at level 18, he becomes a decent Charger and he can really pump out some serious punishment. By level 18, the Druid could just cast Reverse Gravity and take a high number of people out of the fight. Frenzied Berserkers are also hurt really bad by Grease because they auto fail any Dexterity check like Balance and Ride. Of course, that build is an Orc and has a strength of 36 before magic items.

I doubt that anyone would deny that a Charger is not a powerful character. However, the Druid takes less time to break out of their shell, is useful out of combat, has less weaknesses, provides more utility, and is capable of more cheese. Planar Shepherd grants himself free Wishes or acts 10 rounds to 1 and is still a Druid.

nightwyrm
2010-02-13, 11:05 PM
The point is not whether fighters (or melee in general) are good or not. The point is that the druid has a class feature that is comparable to another player character, has another class feature that allows it to adaquately perform the role of melee classes, and still have 9 levels of spell casting.

Gnaeus
2010-02-13, 11:11 PM
Could you please go back and re-read my posts? This is exactly what I'm saying. Look, even the OP was confused[/url] by everyone's druidgasm, when all it amounted to was this:


Well, you made a post disagreeing that a druid can outfighter a fighter citing one specific build. I pointed out that in some ways a druid can outfighter the build.

Whether it is efficient for the druid to play fighter depends a lot on what he is facing that day and what is in his party. You act like being a melee combatant isn't one of the druid's core strengths, or that optimizing that angle, even for a specific day, is a bad idea. That just isn't always true.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-14, 03:30 PM
Get some Unguent of Timelessness and get dozens or even hundreds of turn attempts ready ahead of time.Explain. I see this meaning you don't get extra spell or turn undead refreshes. After all its the same day to you...

mostlyharmful
2010-02-14, 03:38 PM
Druids don't win on the action economy abuse (beyound minionmancy) or mindbending but it's got all the other uber casterness - Battlefield Control, Buffs, Debuffs, Minionmancy, Transport, Utility, whatever....

Sure it's SAD, able to scout, skillmonkey, abuse the rules with the best of them but personally its the effortlessly filling the map with minions and taking more actions than the rest of the party put together times three that makes them both fun and a headache to play. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0344.html)

faceroll
2010-02-14, 04:56 PM
Halfway decent fighter? A riding dog is about equivalent to a fighter, and that's not even counting the druid's summons+buffs+coolness.

It's like you read one line of my post, and totally missed the point.


Well, you made a post disagreeing that a druid can outfighter a fighter citing one specific build.

No; I am saying a druid can catch up with a fighter build if he wants to in doing damage, but he would be a fool to do so.

Here's what makes druids good:


The point is not whether fighters (or melee in general) are good or not. The point is that the druid has a class feature that is comparable to another player character, has another class feature that allows it to adaquately perform the role of melee classes, and still have 9 levels of spell casting.

It should be mentioned that the druid spell list is probably the second best in the game.

Gnaeus
2010-02-14, 06:15 PM
No; I am saying a druid can catch up with a fighter build if he wants to in doing damage, but he would be a fool to do so.

O.K. Now your point is clear, it just isn't true.

The degree to which it is worth it to optimize a druid as a melee fighter will depend on the campaign and the party. In a party of muggles it is indeed not a wise choice. A druid hanging out with an Archivist, a Wizard and a Beguiler or Cleric-Skillmonkey may indeed find himself in the fighter role a lot. If your default action in combat is to close with the enemy and rip off faces, any build that doesn't help you do that isn't a good build. Even the most melee focused druid isn't giving up spellcasting options for the days that having a fighter in the group isn't helpful.

faceroll
2010-02-14, 07:08 PM
O.K. Now your point is clear, it just isn't true.

The degree to which it is worth it to optimize a druid as a melee fighter will depend on the campaign and the party. In a party of muggles it is indeed not a wise choice. A druid hanging out with an Archivist, a Wizard and a Beguiler or Cleric-Skillmonkey may indeed find himself in the fighter role a lot. If your default action in combat is to close with the enemy and rip off faces, any build that doesn't help you do that isn't a good build. Even the most melee focused druid isn't giving up spellcasting options for the days that having a fighter in the group isn't helpful.

Here, check this post out:


I would describe a druid as a competent melee combatant with minimal resource expenditure- a handful of long term buffs, one use of wildshape, maybe a feat. It's all the other crap a druid gets that makes him such a badass. His battlefield control spells, debuffs, and buffs are on par with the wizard's. He has access to virtually the same movement modes as a wizard, too. But when it comes to pure melee damage output & lockdown, a druid has to waste a ton of spells and feats to do it.

Gnaeus
2010-02-14, 07:28 PM
Here, check this post out:

And it is just as incomplete now as when you first posted it. A druid which is playing a meleer can still do battlefield control and buffs. The only feat a druid NEEDS is Natural Spell, in those games which allow it. A druid that is going to be spending a lot of time in combat is better off taking feats like multiattack, travel devotion, and improved grapple than caster feats. The exception to this is the multi use feats, like quicken and extend spell, that will help him regardless of what he is doing that day.

The only feat which is wasted as you put it is the feat he doesn't use.