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CTLC
2010-02-13, 07:05 PM
Hiyo, i decided to make a defensive build, using magic, but i see that dnd 3.5 is not overly loving of defensiveness. Not that there arent somethings totally worth using.
The build is going to go into Iot7FV asap. But i cannot decide whether to take factotum, abjurer, or conjurer first.
My thinking is as follows:
Abjurer fits the best, thematically, and everything else-ly. But I do not really love teh abjuration school [i know, defensive mage who doesnt like abjuration...]
Conjurer has abrupt jaunt and is a wizard. nuff said.
Factotum looks like the best thing ever for someone like me, i love being random and hopping around abilities. But i am not sure as to its playability, specifically its ability to get some wall and other spells i want. However, skill points may be the best thing in the universe. And all the other abilities are really cool too.

So, comments on defensive builds you like, or on factota?

Edit: A factotum is really helpful in a group of only three though!

Overshee
2010-02-13, 07:07 PM
Hiyo, i decided to make a defensive build, using magic, but i see that dnd 3.5 is not overly loving of defensiveness. Not that there arent somethings totally worth using.
The build is going to go into Iot7FV asap. But i cannot decide whether to take factotum, abjurer, or conjurer first.
My thinking is as follows:
Abjurer fits the best, thematically, and everything else-ly. But I do not really love teh abjuration school [i know, defensive mage who doesnt like abjuration...]
Conjurer has abrupt jaunt and is a wizard. nuff said.
Factotum looks like the best thing ever for someone like me, i love being random and hopping around abilities. But i am not sure as to its playability, specifically its ability to get some wall and other spells i want. However, skill points may be the best thing in the universe. And all the other abilities are really cool too.

So, comments on defensive builds you like, or on factota?

I don't think Factotum technically count as spellcasters. Their "spells" are spell like abilities. I don't know the prerequisites for Iot7V, but I'm not sure factotum will qualify.

CTLC
2010-02-13, 07:08 PM
I don't think Factotum technically count as spellcasters. Their "spells" are spell like abilities. I don't know the prerequisites for Iot7V, but I'm not sure factotum will qualify.

... ruh roh.
-goes to check!

Myou
2010-02-13, 07:23 PM
I don't think Factotum technically count as spellcasters. Their "spells" are spell like abilities. I don't know the prerequisites for Iot7V, but I'm not sure factotum will qualify.

Yeah, uh, Factotums can't enter casting PrCs like that, not unless your DM is insane and allows them to imitate 15th level casting. But even then it would be too late for IotSV.

CTLC
2010-02-13, 07:53 PM
so, factotum is out. wah-wah-wahhhhh

Abjurer or conjurer then?
Are there any abjurer variants worth a damn?
Conjurer has abrupt jaunt, and conjuration spells are usually good.

sooo, im probably playing a human, and probably a wizard, unless you all have good Iot7FV builds?

Optimator
2010-02-13, 08:01 PM
Going into IotSFV? Abjurer into master specialist into IotSFV is a no-brainer.

Then again, Abrupt Jaunt is the heat.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 08:19 PM
Are there any abjurer variants worth a damn?

Not a variant, but the Master Specialist prestige class in Complete Mage gives Abjurers 2 out of Iot7V's 3 prerequisite feats in its first 2 levels.

In a defensive- and support-oriented Wizard, I'd probably use a build that looks like this:

Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/War Weaver 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 10/Archmage 3

War Weaver is in Heroes of Battle. It is a very effective group buffer.
Actually, that's an understatement.
It is perhaps the single best support class in 3.5.

[Archmage is just there because it's always a good add-on and Iot7V's already have 2 of its 3 prerequisite feats.]

Myou
2010-02-13, 08:40 PM
Not a variant, but the Master Specialist prestige class in Complete Mage gives Abjurers 2 out of Iot7V's 3 prerequisite feats in its first 2 levels.

In a defensive- and support-oriented Wizard, I'd probably use a build that looks like this:

Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/War Weaver 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 10/Archmage 3

War Weaver is in Heroes of Battle. It is a very effective group buffer.
Actually, that's an understatement.
It is perhaps the single best support class in 3.5.

[Archmage is just there because it's always a good add-on and Iot7V's already have 2 of its 3 prerequisite feats.]

I swear IotSV is a 7 level class, I'd look it up but I'm AFB.

Bibliomancer
2010-02-13, 08:44 PM
I swear IotSV is a 7 level class, I'd look it up but I'm AFB.

It is a 7 level class. You can complete it by 16th level, so the above build could be modified to Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/War Weaver 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 3. I think that the OP of that line just added 10 in on auto-pilot, because if you change it to 7 the CL prerequisites work out and you get a 20 level build.

Overshee
2010-02-13, 09:03 PM
Not a variant, but the Master Specialist prestige class in Complete Mage gives Abjurers 2 out of Iot7V's 3 prerequisite feats in its first 2 levels.

In a defensive- and support-oriented Wizard, I'd probably use a build that looks like this:

Abjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/War Weaver 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 10/Archmage 3

War Weaver is in Heroes of Battle. It is a very effective group buffer.
Actually, that's an understatement.
It is perhaps the single best support class in 3.5.

[Archmage is just there because it's always a good add-on and Iot7V's already have 2 of its 3 prerequisite feats.]

Hey, I'd be really interested in more information on this build. I don't really know much about the prestige classes besides basic roles and powers, any chance someone could expand upon this progression further?

CTLC
2010-02-13, 09:21 PM
hum, heroes of battle?
dont have it, ill see if any of my group does, but id rather enter Iot7FV as soon as i can.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-13, 09:43 PM
Im currently playing a generalist wizard(with domain wiz variant, storm domain) 5, Incantatrix 4, IoT7V 2, and let me tell you, it's incredibly powerful defensively. Has some offensive muscle too. At level 10, I sank a fleet in under a minute without taking damage.

The build works best with another spellcaster around, that way you can abuse both the cooperative spellcasting and the ability to apply metamagics to buffs. Since both work 3+int mod times per day(12 each for me), this gives you an utterly ridiculous number of possible buffs. In my particular case, I have a mystic theurge buddy who gladly tosses a couple fun buffs on me like lesser vigor in return for me persisting his buffs via cooperative spellcasting.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-13, 09:45 PM
hum, heroes of battle?
dont have it, ill see if any of my group does, but id rather enter Iot7FV as soon as i can.

No worries, considering you can enter War Weaver by 4th level if you do it right.

Pluto
2010-02-13, 10:07 PM
I think that the OP of that line just added 10 in on auto-pilot, because if you change it to 7 the CL prerequisites work out and you get a 20 level build.
:smallredface:
Right you are.

Hey, I'd be really interested in more information on this build. I don't really know much about the prestige classes besides basic roles and powers, any chance someone could expand upon this progression further?
Sure.

The only really interesting things that are going on here are the War Weaver and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils Prestige classes.

War Weaver is a 5-level class with 4/5 levels advancing casting.
Even with the lost caster level, it's outrageously powerful.
Its schtick is buffing the whole party quickly and efficiently.
It basically has two abilities:
--One allows the War Weaver to affect all party members with a single casting of single-target buff spells.
(So one casting of Fly can have the whole party airborne)
--The other allows the War Weaver to store buff spells in an "Eldritch Tapestry." These spells can be activated later as a move action. Up to four spells can be stored this way and all can be released at once with a Move action.
(This means a War Weaver can start a conflict with about 3 times the defensive spell output of another caster--before considering that each spell's effect is spread to all party members.)

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is a 7-level PrC with full spellcasting.
That's enough to make it powerful.
On top of that, each level gives it the ability to raise one or more layers of a moveable Prismatic Wall as a standard action a couple times per day. The
Initiate can choose different veils to stop different sorts of items and effects according to the party's and the opposition's abilities.
These veils can eventually be raised as an immediate action.
Iot7V gives some other minor benefits I can't remember now. The veils are the big thing.

Archmage is just there because it's an overall good class (it gives benefits basically for free which would typically require several levels of metamagic) and because Iot7V shares most of its prerequisites.

CTLC
2010-02-13, 10:09 PM
Im currently playing a generalist wizard(with domain wiz variant, storm domain) 5, Incantatrix 4, IoT7V 2, and let me tell you, it's incredibly powerful defensively. Has some offensive muscle too. At level 10, I sank a fleet in under a minute without taking damage.

The build works best with another spellcaster around, that way you can abuse both the cooperative spellcasting and the ability to apply metamagics to buffs. Since both work 3+int mod times per day(12 each for me), this gives you an utterly ridiculous number of possible buffs. In my particular case, I have a mystic theurge buddy who gladly tosses a couple fun buffs on me like lesser vigor in return for me persisting his buffs via cooperative spellcasting.

im not willing/allowed to do that much cheese.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-13, 10:10 PM
The other two major abilities are a bonus of Iot7V level to abjuration spells vs dispel attempts and kaledescopic doom. The latter option fries all the buffs on the target creature, and then, for each buff on it, subjects it to the effects of a veil, working its way from first to last. It's pretty much death for a buffed up caster type.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-13, 10:15 PM
im not willing/allowed to do that much cheese.

Yeah...we play at a very high level of optimization. It's pretty much assumed that every rogue will pick up a ring of blink, for example. DMs now avoid even mentioning valuables as part of the scenery, because they WILL somehow be stolen.

Basically, find the level of power you're willing to play at, and go with that. Spells are as much a part of this as build is. For instance, I COULD persist lesser ironguard, which combined with a few other spells, makes me nearly immune to damage entirely...but I like to give the DM the illusion that Im still mortal, and can be damaged. Use the juice on other party members instead, and watch them enjoy their power. Plus, you're a far less obvious target in combat then, since all the critical spells have been cast just before going to bed or in the early morning.

Myou
2010-02-14, 04:40 AM
Im currently playing a generalist wizard(with domain wiz variant, storm domain) 5, Incantatrix 4, IoT7V 2, and let me tell you, it's incredibly powerful defensively. Has some offensive muscle too. At level 10, I sank a fleet in under a minute without taking damage.

The build works best with another spellcaster around, that way you can abuse both the cooperative spellcasting and the ability to apply metamagics to buffs. Since both work 3+int mod times per day(12 each for me), this gives you an utterly ridiculous number of possible buffs. In my particular case, I have a mystic theurge buddy who gladly tosses a couple fun buffs on me like lesser vigor in return for me persisting his buffs via cooperative spellcasting.

Domain wizards can't enter Incantatrix. Did the DM houserule that in?

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 04:42 AM
Domain wizards can't enter Incantatrix. Did the DM houserule that in?

Uh...since when? A normal generalist or a specialist can, what explicitly forbids a domain wizard? There's nothing stating they aren't allowed to ban a school of magic, after all.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 05:03 AM
Just a note: You need 3 levels of Master Specialist to get both the feats that get you into IotSV.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 05:11 AM
If you prefer a more simple build, you can go:

Abjurer (Wizard) 3 / Master Specialist 6 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Master Specialist +4

That would be for a more dispel oriented build.

For a support/counterspell/dispeller?

Abjurer 3 / Master Specialist 10 / War Weaver 5 / Archmage 2

Throw Personal range spells into the weave.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 11:05 AM
Ye, the build is more dispelling, counterspelling, and basically non-lethal incapacitate moves. War weaver would make a buffing god, but i dont think im allowed to use it, so abjurer 3, master specialist 6, enter Iot7FV at level 10, which is the soonest possible, and then master specialist it out i guess.

...
Whats a domain wizard?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 11:33 AM
Ye, the build is more dispelling, counterspelling, and basically non-lethal incapacitate moves. War weaver would make a buffing god, but i dont think im allowed to use it, so abjurer 3, master specialist 6, enter Iot7FV at level 10, which is the soonest possible, and then master specialist it out i guess.

...
Whats a domain wizard?

If you took Precocious Apprentice you could get into Master Specialist a level early, which allows you to get Mastery of Counterspelling later.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 11:38 AM
1. Precocious Apprentice?
2. Mastery of Counterspelling?
3. Domain wizards again?

Greenish
2010-02-14, 11:43 AM
Whats a domain wizard?UA variant wizard: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard

CTLC
2010-02-14, 11:48 AM
wow, i just checked the srd and totally missed that, thanks a ton.

I assume I cannot take a domain and specialize, so i shall specialize in abjuration.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 12:13 PM
1. Precocious Apprentice?

A feat. Complete Arcane. Gives you a 2nd level spell slot at level 1. Cheesy way to early-entry PrCs that require 2nd-level spells.


2. Mastery of Counterspelling?

High Arcana choice for Archmage. Dungeon Master's Guide. Any spell you counter that can be reflected is. Very fun when people chuck Save or Dies at you.


3. Domain wizards again?

Yeah, Unearthed Arcana, and no, you can't specialise.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 12:22 PM
taking all this into account, what is the best build for abjurer, master specialist, Iot7FV, and then archmage, for mastery of the spelling of the counter variety?

Trying to get as far as possible in as few levels as possible, starting at level 3, level fairly quickly.

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 12:25 PM
taking all this into account, what is the best build for abjurer, master specialist, Iot7FV, and then archmage, for mastery of the spelling of the counter variety?

Trying to get as far as possible in as few levels as possible, starting at level 3, level fairly quickly.

Well, you can go Wizard 2/Master Abjurer 7/Initiate 7/Master Abjurer 3/Archmage 1 pre-epic. Precocious Apprentice with FS enables Master Specialist entry on 3. That buys you one level for Archmage, though you'd really want two levels to pick up Arcane Reach too. It's really the best high arcana and goes great with Master Abjurer 10 ability. But meh, you can't fit more than 1 level of Archmage no matter what if you want both, Initiate and Master Abjurer capstones (both of which are awesome).

CTLC
2010-02-14, 12:27 PM
Well, you can go Wizard 2/Master Abjurer 7/Initiate 7/Master Abjurer 3/Archmage 1 pre-epic. Precocious Apprentice with FS enables Master Specialist entry on 3. That buys you one level for Archmage, though you'd really want two levels to pick up Arcane Reach too. It's really the best high arcana and goes great with Master Abjurer 10 ability. But meh, you can't fit more than 1 level of Archmage no matter what if you want both, Initiate and Master Abjurer capstones (both of which are awesome).

And it is impossible to get that second level of archmage in there somehow?

Edit: its unnecessary really, doubt id get to level 20 anyways. What should i do for stats, obviously i want 18 int, and a high con. Does anything else really matter?

Also, feats, i have one for human, one for creation, and one for level 3. Im taking precocious apprentice, and possibly improved initiative, anything else worth taking?

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 12:29 PM
And it is impossible to get that second level of archmage in there somehow?

As long as you want to maintain Master Specialist 10 and Initiate 7, yes. Well, there are tricks for acquiring extra skill ranks (other than Favored, which only gets you one skill anyhow), but those begin to fall on the Theoretical Optimization-side of things and thus don't really belong here.

So yeah, either you give up Master Spec 10, Initiate 7 or Archmage 2.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 12:36 PM
Well, you can go Wizard 2/Master Abjurer 7/Initiate 7/Master Abjurer 3/Archmage 1 pre-epic. Precocious Apprentice with FS enables Master Specialist entry on 3. That buys you one level for Archmage, though you'd really want two levels to pick up Arcane Reach too. It's really the best high arcana and goes great with Master Abjurer 10 ability. But meh, you can't fit more than 1 level of Archmage no matter what if you want both, Initiate and Master Abjurer capstones (both of which are awesome).

This, except if you want to counterspell, dip Cleric 1 (which doesn't delay anything except your spellcasting). Coupla reasons.

1) Inquisition Domain. +4 to Dispel checks.

2) Divine Defiance, which is made of win. Combined with Battlemagic Perception (a spell from Heroes of Battle) you can even counterspell SLAs with it.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 12:38 PM
I care a lot about my character making sense, and he would NEVER take a cleric level.

Not a good cleric, not an evil cleric, not a chance. hehe.

What should i do for stats, obviously i want 18 int, and a high con. Does anything else really matter?
right now i have, 18 int, 16 con, and 10 everything else...

Also, feats, i have one for human, one for creation, and one for level 3. Im taking precocious apprentice, and possibly improved initiative, anything else worth taking?

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 12:39 PM
This, except if you want to counterspell, dip Cleric 1 (which doesn't delay anything except your spellcasting). Coupla reasons.

1) Inquisition Domain. +4 to Dispel checks.

2) Divine Defiance, which is made of win. Combined with Battlemagic Perception (a spell from Heroes of Battle) you can even counterspell SLAs with it.

There are few other domains that also improve Dispel-checks, as generic rolls and such, so yeah. This does require Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric or Illumian with certain sigils to gain the CL 3 required for Divine Defiance though.

sofawall
2010-02-14, 12:41 PM
I care a lot about my character making sense, and he would NEVER take a cleric level.

Not a good cleric, not an evil cleric, not a chance. hehe.

What should i do for stats, obviously i want 18 int, and a high con. Does anything else really matter?
right now i have, 18 int, 16 con, and 10 everything else...

Also, feats, i have one for human, one for creation, and one for level 3. Im taking precocious apprentice, and possibly improved initiative, anything else worth taking?
Str and Cha are useless, Wis sees limited use, Dex is extremely useful (Init, RTA, AC)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 12:44 PM
There are few other domains that also improve Dispel-checks, as generic rolls and such, so yeah. This does require Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric or Illumian with certain sigils to gain the CL 3 required for Divine Defiance though.

It does, but Divine Defiance is certainly worth a lost caster level and another feat; it's the feat that makes counterspelling useful.

Which I'm almost certainly preaching to the choir.

Oh, and @CTLC: You could take an Ur-Priest level, though I think you'd be giving up non-TO hope of Archmage by doing so.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 12:51 PM
ur priest is another thing he would never touch.
current stats are 18 int, 16 con, 14 dex, and three 8s

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 12:54 PM
I care a lot about my character making sense, and he would NEVER take a cleric level.

Not a good cleric, not an evil cleric, not a chance. hehe.

What should i do for stats, obviously i want 18 int, and a high con. Does anything else really matter?
right now i have, 18 int, 16 con, and 10 everything else...

Also, feats, i have one for human, one for creation, and one for level 3. Im taking precocious apprentice, and possibly improved initiative, anything else worth taking?

Uh, take Martial Wizard ACF and trade your Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative if that's what you want. There is a lot worth taking. Small list of feats you'll probably want:

Arcane Mastery [CArc]: Enables you to take 10 on CL checks. When you're doing lots of Dispelling... Well, I needn't explain why this is very useful.

Planar Touchstone [PlH]: Take Catalogues of Enlightement as your Planar Site. This gets you a Domain Granted Power. Guess what you get? Inquisition! +4 on Dispel-checks.

Elven Spell Lore [PHBII]: +2 on Dispel-checks and learn to retype the energy of one spell. Handy if you ever need a damage spell; Scorching Ray and Orb of Fire are solid retypeables.

Chain Spell [CArc]: Chain Dispel Magic allows you to chain through all target's magic items and then hit the creature itself. All this with targeted dispels. Also can take out multiple opponents. Chained Dispels aren't any weaker than standard Dispel. This is awesome.

Quicken Spell [PHB]: Yeah, casting two spells/turn is nice.

Extend Spell [PHB]: Allows you to, early on, make hour/level buffs last all day. Later on, they last two days allowing you to free up the slots for battle spells every other day.

Extraordinary Spell Aim [CMage]: Enables you to aim area effect spells better; Anti-Magic Fields leaving holes for you (quite useful against other casters even though it doesn't really protect you from their magic, and make life hell for melee types), Disjunctions leaving allies out of the deal, Solid Fogs, etc. selectively. Very handy.

Improved Familiar [DMG]: Pseudodragon, Imp & Quasit are all useful in their own way, for example.

Item creation feats: Well duh. Getting cheap items for the party is awesome. Especially Craft Wondrous Items, though Craft Rods is very handy for metamagic rods too. Craft Contingent Spell [CArc] can do some sick stuff like make people almost immortal.


Of course, you need prerequisites (Spell Focus for Master Specialist, a second Spell Focus for Archmage). So yeah, your feats are precious.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 01:24 PM
Please note that counterspelling tends to be quite ineffective without Divine Defiance.

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 01:26 PM
Please note that counterspelling tends to be quite ineffective without Divine Defiance.

Well, with Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, Ring of Spell-Battle and similars, you can still create a decent amount of Immediate Action Counterspells.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 01:48 PM
Well, with Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, Ring of Spell-Battle and similars, you can still create a decent amount of Immediate Action Counterspells.

Duelward sucks compared to BmP, but I guess.

You still need Divine Defiance to counterspell SLAs though.

Or, technically, you can use Celerity to immediate action counterspell, though without Quick Recovery this is a really bad idea.

Myou
2010-02-14, 01:49 PM
Uh...since when? A normal generalist or a specialist can, what explicitly forbids a domain wizard? There's nothing stating they aren't allowed to ban a school of magic, after all.

Domain wizards can't specialise, so that build was illegal, as well as sickeningly cheesy.

Eldariel
2010-02-14, 02:03 PM
Duelward sucks compared to BmP, but I guess.

Yeah, but the trick is to have both up. As they're basically discharged when you use them for counters, it's good to have enough gas for two rounds. BMP identifies the spells for you, while Duelward gives you the first counter.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:08 PM
Yeah, but the trick is to have both up. As they're basically discharged when you use them for counters, it's good to have enough gas for two rounds. BMP identifies the spells for you, while Duelward gives you the first counter.

Yeah, I got that.

Unless... you stack BmPs on yourself. Technically, there's nothing to stop you casting a whole pile of them, though it's a little blurrier whether they all discharge when you use one.

Nice thing about BmP is that it's not an Immediate Action counterspell, it's a Free action counterspell.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 03:09 PM
Sheet at Level 3: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

comments, mistakes i made, etc?
how much gp should i have starting at level 3?

Edit: ways to improve my altogether really sad AC?

Pluto
2010-02-14, 03:49 PM
Sheet at Level 3: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

comments, mistakes i made, etc?
I don't like the early MS entry (levels are cheaper than feats), but that's just taste.

Your spells are probably going to be a problem.
If you want to be defensive, you don't have to be a Monk.
You need something to do.
(Unless you plan on punching baddies in the face. In which case, you might need a new plan.)
Magic Missile, Baleful Transposition and Ray of Enfeeblement are your only active spells.
MM is about as good as a crossbow at this point.
Try spicing this up a bit. Spells are cheap.
Things like Enlarge or Grease or Minor Image or Wall of Smoke will take you far.

Also, Shield but no Mage Armor or Protection from Evil?

CTLC
2010-02-14, 03:56 PM
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

better?
we have another caster in our party who does the typical repertoire
and i changed the wand to a wand of ray of enfeeblement, cause its a really good spell for fighting guards in heavy armor.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 04:26 PM
Although, if i were to specialize in conjuration i would get abrupt jaunt and some of the wall spells are conjuration.

Edit: and to clarify i will need to be able to handle more enemies than reasonable and be able to attack.
so conjuration ftw?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-14, 04:33 PM
Minor nitpick: According to Complete Arcane if a Prg class ask for x spell of x level you can enter that prestige class if you got SLA that meets does prerequisites, now I don't have my book at hands but I thought that Initiate of the sevenfold veil asked for 4 abjuration spells so a factotum that chooses his SLA (they cast spells are SLA right?) as abjuration spells can enter the class.

Kylarra
2010-02-14, 04:34 PM
Domain wizards can't specialise, so that build was illegal, as well as sickeningly cheesy.3.5 Incantrix doesn't require "specialization". It only requires that you haven't banned abj and that you give up a school other than abj/div.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 04:35 PM
Minor nitpick: According to Complete Arcane if a Prg class ask for x spell of x level you can enter that prestige class if you got SLA that meets does prerequisites, now I don't have my book at hands but I thought that Initiate of the sevenfold veil asked for 4 abjuration spells so a factotum that chooses his SLA (they cast spells are SLA right?) as abjuration spells can enter the class.

SLAs only count if it asks for a specific spell IIRC.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 04:42 PM
actually, specialized conjuration is cheesy, and dispelling is more fun.

Pluto
2010-02-14, 04:43 PM
Although, if i were to specialize in conjuration i would get abrupt jaunt and some of the wall spells are conjuration.

That will negate the qualification advantages of the Master Specialist.
Stick with Abjuration; it's a good school, especially once you hit the higher levels.

If you have some way of making feat slots (eg. Flaws/Darkness Shuffle/Custom Item crafting), Conjuration spec. would be fine.
It just doesn't sound like yours is that sort of game.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 04:47 PM
I am actually going to take a flaw, but i need to decide which flaw.

i might take vulnerable as it matters less in the long run, but my AC sucks.
eggs. i need to improve that, ideas?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-14, 04:56 PM
I am actually going to take a flaw, but i need to decide which flaw.

i might take vulnerable as it matters less in the long run, but my AC sucks.
eggs. i need to improve that, ideas?Improve it using miss chances. Take the Child of Shadows as a stance (from ToB), and you'll get concealment whenever you move 10' or more. Requires a 1-level dip or 2 feats, though.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 05:23 PM
Improve it using miss chances. Take the Child of Shadows as a stance (from ToB), and you'll get concealment whenever you move 10' or more. Requires a 1-level dip or 2 feats, though.

its not worth either considering caster levels and feat starvedness

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:03 PM
I am tempted to take dragonborn of bahamut, but im not entirely sure what the aging part entails. And if i do, id rather not be human beforehand right? Because i lose everything from human, but id keep ability adjustments from a different class.
advice?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:21 PM
I am tempted to take dragonborn of bahamut, but im not entirely sure what the aging part entails. And if i do, id rather not be human beforehand right? Because i lose everything from human, but id keep ability adjustments from a different class.
advice?

For wizards it's not all that great. Firstly, Dex isn't a dump stat for them (Con is more important, but not by as much as it would be for a cleric). Secondly, you can't be a **** or you rip apart and likely die.

As a Grey Elf it might be useful.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:30 PM
For wizards it's not all that great. Firstly, Dex isn't a dump stat for them (Con is more important, but not by as much as it would be for a cleric). Secondly, you can't be a **** or you rip apart and likely die.

As a Grey Elf it might be useful.
I know its not all that great, amusing comes to mind though. I like playing things that arent too good or too bad, but are entertaining. And as a defensive caster, id prefer if i simply wasnt as good at ranged touch attacks. sorta, Its a play the ads and disads style. The last sentence in the first part confuses me.

Grey elf is a total option, i am also tempted to go warforged dragonborn of bahamut.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:08 PM
I know its not all that great, amusing comes to mind though. I like playing things that arent too good or too bad, but are entertaining. And as a defensive caster, id prefer if i simply wasnt as good at ranged touch attacks. sorta, Its a play the ads and disads style. The last sentence in the first part confuses me.

If you commit an evil act and don't immediately get an atonement, or you commit multiple evil acts, Bahamut renounces you and you take 2d6 damage per round for a number of rounds equal to your Hit Dice, which is likely fatal unless you have a really large Hit Die or are getting healing during it. At the end of it you stop being a dragonborn.


Grey elf is a total option, i am also tempted to go warforged dragonborn of bahamut.

I posted that before I realised elves can't become dragonborn.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 02:47 PM
If you commit an evil act and don't immediately get an atonement, or you commit multiple evil acts, Bahamut renounces you and you take 2d6 damage per round for a number of rounds equal to your Hit Dice, which is likely fatal unless you have a really large Hit Die or are getting healing during it. At the end of it you stop being a dragonborn.
My character is liberating a small town from evil councils, so no issue there. Ahahaha, i love the idea of 2d6 damage a round, but you could be really lucky, or have silly con...



I posted that before I realised elves can't become dragonborn.
Ill ask my dm, tis a silly thing though.

what about the exiled modron?

Pluto
2010-02-15, 04:09 PM
I posted that before I realised elves can't become dragonborn.

The dragonborn children of Bahamut are a unique race in that they are not born; they are reborn. Each one enters the world as a halfling, an elf, a human, or a member of some other humanoid race with all that race's propensities and traits.
The sleep thing is probably not intended to be taken too seriously.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 04:10 PM
The sleep thing is probably not intended to be taken too seriously.

More like Wizards screwed up, as usual.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 04:13 PM
newest sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

mango please.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 04:19 PM
newest sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

mango please.

I don't think a TN dragonborn will work out too well in the long run.

And Grey Elves can't be Dragonborn, as I pointed out. :smalltongue:

And did you remember to deduct 100 gp from your equipment for the Rite of Rebirth?

CTLC
2010-02-15, 04:28 PM
I don't think a TN dragonborn will work out too well in the long run.
The alignment is wrong, stuff i still need to change it falls under. Im NG


And Grey Elves can't be Dragonborn, as I pointed out. :smalltongue:
DM approved it.


And did you remember to deduct 100 gp from your equipment for the Rite of Rebirth?
Dm has not however told me how much money i have, ill make a note to deduct that though, thanks.

i also need my hp rolled...

Edit: CG makes more sense.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-15, 05:05 PM
I'm surprised no one has offered this build:

Abjurer3/Master Abjurer2/WarWeaver5/Iot7V7/Magical Trickster3

Magical Trickster is from Complete Scoundrel. What does it do? Oh, nothing much. It's a 2/3 class progression. Not spell progression, class progression. Which you use to promote War Weaver. So now you can put 7th level spells in the Weave. It also nets you a free Metamagic feat, and the ability to apply a metamagic feat for free, once a day.

I'm still working on a way to get Iot7V7 in, AND 8th level spells into the Weave. Because Mind Blank on the party? That's damn cool.

Pluto
2010-02-15, 05:15 PM
Magical Trickster is from Complete Scoundrel. What does it do? Oh, nothing much. It's a 2/3 class progression. Not spell progression, class progression.
I don't want to be a pedant, but just for clarification, I think you mean Uncanny Trickster.

And I agree. That is a really neat class for this.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-15, 05:19 PM
I don't want to be a pedant, but just for clarification, I think you mean Uncanny Trickster.

And I agree. That is a really neat class for this.

No, I mean Magical Trickster. It's a different PrC, specifically tailored to use metamagic and tricks in tandem. Uncanny Trickster is something entirely different.

EDIT: ahh, I see what you mean. Magical Trickster doesn't promote class abilities, wheras Uncanny Trickster does. That does make Uncanny Trickster more viable in this option.

Still, wish I could get one more level in there somewhere for 8th level spells in the Weave.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-15, 05:41 PM
You know there's really nothing to a build that's as important as the choice of buff list and WBL choice.

Ironguard, Mindblank, Nondetection, Superior Invisibility, Shapechange, Veil of Undeath, Ghostform, Overland Flight, Anticipate Teleport, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement.... slap all those together and you're a hairs bredth from undetectable.

Combine with Magic Jar, Clone, Astral Projection, Genesis and Contingency and keeping a mage down becomes an even harder job than putting them down.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 07:28 PM
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

Ways to increase my AC apart from spells...
please?

Pluto
2010-02-15, 08:05 PM
Ways to increase my AC apart from spells...
please?
--Throw money at the problem (Mithril Bucklers, [Twilight] Mithril Chain Shirts, rings of protection, etc.)
--Stand behind things (+4 AC).
--Drop prone outside of melee range (+4 AC v. Ranged attacks).
--Stay in the dark (20% miss).
--Get out of reach (a fast/flying/climbing mount, etc.)

CTLC
2010-02-15, 08:16 PM
--Throw money at the problem (Mithril Bucklers, [Twilight] Mithril Chain Shirts, rings of protection, etc.)
--Stand behind things (+4 AC).
--Drop prone outside of melee range (+4 AC v. Ranged attacks).
--Stay in the dark (20% miss).
--Get out of reach (a fast/flying/climbing mount, etc.)

--I have level 3 money minus a little under 900 gp...
--With no penalties to spellcasting? And i will have to move around
--Ahaha, yes
--Ideas to get something to help me here?

Raiki
2010-02-15, 08:17 PM
I'm surprised no one has offered this build:

Abjurer3/Master Abjurer2/WarWeaver5/Iot7V7/Magical Trickster3

Magical Trickster is from Complete Scoundrel. What does it do? Oh, nothing much. It's a 2/3 class progression. Not spell progression, class progression. Which you use to promote War Weaver. So now you can put 7th level spells in the Weave. It also nets you a free Metamagic feat, and the ability to apply a metamagic feat for free, once a day.

I'm still working on a way to get Iot7V7 in, AND 8th level spells into the Weave. Because Mind Blank on the party? That's damn cool.

*Troutslap*

Sorry, had to be done.

PSA: The above troutslap was in no way motivated by the fact that my DM has refused to allow me to progress WW levels beyond 5 by any means. That is all.

~R~

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 12:33 AM
*Troutslap*

Sorry, had to be done.

PSA: The above troutslap was in no way motivated by the fact that my DM has refused to allow me to progress WW levels beyond 5 by any means. That is all.

~R~

It could be worse, I could have mentioned Bloodline. Heck, with Bloodline, you could go AbChamp/War Weaver and end up with auto-quicken 9th level spells which then promptly go into the weave...

CTLC
2010-02-16, 06:13 PM
bloodlines? -shudder-

thats almost as bad as trying to retrain simple weapon proficiency.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 06:04 PM
[my players dont read this for a while please]

I want to use a level six version of this guy as an npc for a oneshot im doing in a different campaign. Ideas? Also i want him to be able to raise veils centered around allys if possible? Or can he do that anyways within his range? Edit: LIES, he wont have veils by then, but what should i do for other abilities?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 07:17 PM
--Ideas to get something to help me here?

Phantom Steed's pretty awesome.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 07:23 PM
Oh for sure! One of the first level 3 spells i want to take. But i was also thinking about something to improve my familiar to a dragon of some sort. Im sortof dragon themed right now. And no, to everyone who just had any though related to kobolds or sorcerers.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 07:26 PM
Oh for sure! One of the first level 3 spells i want to take. But i was also thinking about something to improve my familiar to a dragon of some sort. Im sortof dragon themed right now. And no, to everyone who just had any though related to kobolds or sorcerers.

What about Dragonspawns?

CTLC
2010-02-17, 07:27 PM
Yes, those.
...
I know what those are.
Totally.
What that guy said.
...
That guy~

sorry, but what are dragonspawns?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 07:31 PM
Yes, those.
...
I know what those are.
Totally.
What that guy said.
...
That guy~

sorry, but what are dragonspawns?

Highly overpowered templates (especially White Dragonspawn) found in the Dragonlance campaign setting.


White Dragonspawn gives you:

Monstrous Humanoid type
Cold subtype
+7 natural armour (non-stacking)
Flight at twice land speed (average)
Bite and two claws for 1d4 (if Medium-size, 1d3 if Small)
Breath weapon for 2d6 cold every 2d4 rounds, DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod
Death Throes: Everyone within 10 feet takes 1d6 cold, Reflex half
A free level of sorcerer casting
Low-light vision
Darkvision 30ft
+2 Dex
+2 Con
Access to dragon feats.

CR +1.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 07:37 PM
Highly overpowered templates (especially White Dragonspawn) found in the Dragonlance campaign setting.



CR +1.

I called em dragonlance.
you corrected me.
I remembered it as lance anyways.
ahahahah. Anywho, ill ask my dm, but frankly, op much?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 07:47 PM
I called em dragonlance.
you corrected me.
I remembered it as lance anyways.
ahahahah. Anywho, ill ask my dm, but frankly, op much?

Yes. They are. Well, White is. Black and Green are +2 LA, and still only give a level of sorcerer, but give better breath weapons (4d4 and 4d6 respectively) and stat modifiers (+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha). Blue is +3 LA, and gives a 4d8 breath weapon and +6 Str, +4 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha. Red is +4 LA and gives you a 4d10 breath weapon and +8 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

You can see that they're not all that much better while costing much more LA. Black and Green Dragonspawn are still very powerful if used with LA buyoff, Blue and Red... not so much.

jiriku
2010-02-17, 07:49 PM
If you intend to counterspell, it's really only a viable tactic if you focus on it. Thus, Improved Counterspell from the PHB is an important feat. Also, I misremember their names (currently away from books), but there are a couple of spells in MiC and uhmmm, either Complete Mage or PH2 that are useful to counterspellers. One lets you auto-pass spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast and gives you a +2 untyped bonus to dispel checks, the other lets you dispel as an immediate action without having readied an action to dispel.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 07:50 PM
but i already have a breath weapon that is decent. And im not so much a physical character. However i changed my pre dragonborn race to lesser tiefling. And boooy do my stats suck, totalling 74. But high! con and Higher!! int. So its ok, but i really would benefit from a better familiar ne?

CTLC
2010-02-17, 07:55 PM
If you intend to counterspell, it's really only a viable if you focus on it. Thus, Improved Counterspell from the PHB is an important feat. Also, I misremember their names (currently away from books), but there are a couple of spells in MiC and uhmmm, either Complete Mage or PH2 that are useful to counterspellers. One lets you auto-pass spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast and gives you a +2 untyped bonus to dispel checks, the other lets you dispel as an immediate action without having readied an action to dispel.

wow, i didnt take improved counterspell. But is it really so good? I like my current feats quite a bit, although precocious apprentice will be retrained in teh future. And please remember the names of those feats!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 08:02 PM
If you intend to counterspell, it's really only a viable if you focus on it. Thus, Improved Counterspell from the PHB is an important feat. Also, I misremember their names (currently away from books), but there are a couple of spells in MiC and uhmmm, either Complete Mage or PH2 that are useful to counterspellers. One lets you auto-pass spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast and gives you a +2 untyped bonus to dispel checks, the other lets you dispel as an immediate action without having readied an action to dispel.

Don't use Improved Counterspell. Dispel Magic does better, if boosted (Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) helps here, as do levels in Master Abjurer, Arcane Mastery and Elven Spell Lore). Readying actions to counterspell is also bad. You want immediate action counterspells. The be-all and end-all is Divine Defiance, but barring that you'll want Rings of Greater Counterspells, Battlemagic Perception, and Duelward.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 08:04 PM
Sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

So, this divine defiance thing. How do i get that without levels in cleric?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 08:21 PM
If you are still wondering about a dragon themed familiar, you can take imporved familiar at lvl 8 and gain a pseudrodragon familiar (Details on improved familiar are on the DMG) and there is the feat draconic familiar in draconomicon, which gives you a wyrmling, color depends on CL and aligment, it only details chromatic and metallic dragon so you may want to check that.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 08:31 PM
i knew there was a dragon themed familiar feat, and i didnt think of draconomicon. wow. Thanks, ill check that out.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 08:37 PM
I would suggest a blue dragon wyrmling (Burrow speed is excelent for ambushes) but you are a dragonborn so no luck thre

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 08:45 PM
Sheet: http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=185317

So, this divine defiance thing. How do i get that without levels in cleric?

You need at least 1 level in a divine casting class. If you don't want that, you can't get it.

Basically, it lets you burn a turn attempt to counterspell as an immediate action. Use nightsticks, etc.

CTLC
2010-02-17, 08:47 PM
So i only need a one level dip? Because i need caster level 3 divine dont i?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 08:54 PM
So i only need a one level dip? Because i need caster level 3 divine dont i?

1 level dip and practiced spellcaster (cleric) i guess

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 09:19 PM
1 level dip and practiced spellcaster (cleric) i guess

Precisely.

CTLC
2010-02-18, 03:14 PM
Ok, when would be the best time to take that level dip though?
It wont slow down my Iot7FV at all, but counterspelling isnt strong at low levels.

Eldariel
2010-02-18, 03:17 PM
Ok, when would be the best time to take that level dip though?
It wont slow down my Iot7FV at all, but counterspelling isnt strong at low levels.

Level 1. Get (6+Int)*4 skill points for your trouble too, and d6 HD and the ability to wear some armor for a level. Really, it's the only smart time.

CTLC
2010-02-18, 03:24 PM
Level 1. Get (6+Int)*4 skill points for your trouble too, and d6 HD and the ability to wear some armor for a level. Really, it's the only smart time.

We start at level three, so the armor isnt handy, but a maxed d6 and more skill points are always welcome. Hope it doesnt slow me down to much. -off to change character sheet-
thanks!

Could i theoretically go cleric 1/conjurer1/master conjurer 1?

Eldariel
2010-02-18, 03:29 PM
We start at level three, so the armor isnt handy, but a maxed d6 and more skill points are always welcome. Hope it doesnt slow me down to much. -off to change character sheet-
thanks!

Could i theoretically go cleric 1/conjurer1/master conjurer 1?

Meh, get your DM to approve your Precocious Apprentice for that and you'll be fine. By RAW you couldn't take it since your level 1 isn't in Wizard, but that's just ridiculous.

CTLC
2010-02-18, 03:29 PM
wait, i thought clerics had 2+int?

Eldariel
2010-02-18, 03:33 PM
wait, i thought clerics had 2+int?

Tremble, mortal and despair! Cloistered Cleric has come to this world! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)

Uhm, yeah, there's no reason not to go CC for 1-level dip in Wizard-build since the difference is that standard Cleric gets more martial abilities with better armor/shield proficiencies, higher BAB and one die higher HD vs. Cloistered Cleric's extra Knowledge-domain, extra skills in class and spells.

Since Wizard can't use the armors and shields anyways and doesn't get any of the BAB anyways, all you lose is 2 HP for 16 skillpoints, better list and an extra domain.


Oh, and Cloistered Cleric fits a Wizard infinitely better too. And on low levels, being a level behind on offensive spells is hugely painful, but on counterbalance, your Cleric-spells will still be live (Cause Fear, Obscuring Mist, Lesser Vigor, Shield of Faith, Entropic Warding and the spontaneous Cures). And getting all Knowledges maxed out is awesome for a Wizard. So yeah. Cloistered Cleric is the reason you get 6+Int skills.

CTLC
2010-02-18, 04:30 PM
oh.
a few things though:
1. My wis is less than 10...
2. Divine defiance apparently requires divine caster level 3?

Eldariel
2010-02-18, 04:36 PM
oh.
a few things though:
1. My wis is less than 10...
2. Divine defiance apparently requires divine caster level 3?

1) Doesn't matter. You can still use Spell Completion Items. Though Wis 11 would be ideal.
2) Yes. Either use Illumian-race or Practiced Spellcaster-feat.

CTLC
2010-02-18, 04:55 PM
1) Doesn't matter. You can still use Spell Completion Items. Though Wis 11 would be ideal.
2) Yes. Either use Illumian-race or Practiced Spellcaster-feat.

sweet, will take practiced spellcaster. I will update my sheet in a day or two though, i have to finish a oneshot im doing... tomorrow!