PDA

View Full Version : Rope Trick



Splendor
2010-02-13, 11:47 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm

Some of these questions my group already has decided our answers too, but I wondered what others thought.

1) I understand that spells and area effects cannot cross the extra-dimensional interface. But what about air? Just normal air? The spell doesn't say anything about the extra-dimensional space creating air so does it just flow though? Does that mean sound can pass through? How about light? Is it dark inside a rope trick?

2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?

3) Can it be cast underwater? Does water rush in? If not then creature that breath underwater can't use the spell (they'd suffocate).

4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?

5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?

6) Since it opens a extra-dimensional interface that is like a 3'x5' window, can you cast it in areas that are smaller than 3'x5'? Like a small tunnel?

7) If you can cast it in area's smaller than 3'x5' then couldn't you use it to bypass doors? Cast it centered on a door, climb up this side & pull up rope, lower rope down on the other side and climb down.

8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?

9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.

10) Bags of holding use Leo's Secret Chest and Portable hole uses plane shift to create a extra-dimensional space. When you put one inside the other bad things happen. But it doesn't say what happen when you put a BoH in another BoH, or a port hole in a port hole. What happens if you cast rope trick inside of a rope trick spell?

sofawall
2010-02-13, 11:52 PM
9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.

Take 10. That should make it, if you are the wizard. If you're the Fighter, you very well may fail with ACP.

AgentPaper
2010-02-13, 11:54 PM
The answer to all of your questions is that a cat-girl has just died.

Defiant
2010-02-14, 12:05 AM
Take 10. That should make it, if you are the wizard. If you're the Fighter, you very well may fail with ACP.

Can't take 10 when you are threatened. When climbing the rope means the difference between safety and the guards finding you out, you have to roll (unless you have a specific feat).

Bibliomancer
2010-02-14, 12:11 AM
Some of these questions my group already has decided our answers too, but I wondered what others thought.

1) I understand that spells and area effects cannot cross the extra-dimensional interface. But what about air? Just normal air? The spell doesn't say anything about the extra-dimensional space creating air so does it just flow though? Does that mean sound can pass through? How about light? Is it dark inside a rope trick?

There's a magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bottleofAir) for that, although if the spell doesn't specify suffocation time, it's assumed that you don't have to worry about it. I believe that the spell description states that there's a window in the extradimensional space, so light should pass into it but not vice versa.


2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?

Given that the rope is in the spell name, you'd probably have to be in contact with it to enter the space. You could fly in with your hand brushing the rope, though.


3) Can it be cast underwater? Does water rush in? If not then creature that breath underwater can't use the spell (they'd suffocate).

Since it's an extra dimensional space with the opening effectively pointed downwards, the air would be trapped, probably. Unless it draws air in from the surrounding environment. It probably doesn't, so to fill it with water you'd have to cross the boundary repeatedly, pushing water inside and air out each time.


4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?

He probably wouldn't be able to see it, since see invisibility only sees invisible things and ethereal objects. An extradimensional space is neither, so he probably wouldn't be able to see the interface without true seeing. I doubt that you'd be able to get in within the rope, and plane shifting to demiplanes is difficult, if not necessarily impossible.


5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?

Yes, if you used an area dispel you could dispel the spell and they'd fall out, I think. If you had, say, a teleportation circle open underneath them they could use fly or similar effects to avoid landing in its area, or make a Reflex save vs. the spell's DC to roll out before the spell activated, then the normal save of the spell to resist being teleported, as normal.


6) Since it opens a extra-dimensional interface that is like a 3'x5' window, can you cast it in areas that are smaller than 3'x5'? Like a small tunnel

I'm going to go with yes, because it's extradimensional.


7) If you can cast it in area's smaller than 3'x5' then couldn't you use it to bypass doors? Cast it centered on a door, climb up this side & pull up rope, lower rope down on the other side and climb down.

You can't cast a spell to an area to which you do not have line of effect, so all of the window opens onto the space to which you have access, even if that space is smaller than 3 by 5.


8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?

I think (see above) you'd need to have the rope outside, and if you stuck your hand outside, it wold be visible and you'd be vulnerable (althogh you'd probably have improved cover).


9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.

You could have taken 10, and sure, if you have time and spellbook space (although it might be level 3, and people might wak into it, depending on how you interpret the rope rule). Alternatively, you could cast it next to a wall. I believe that the climb DC of a knotted rope next to a wall is 0.


10) Bags of holding use Leo's Secret Chest and Portable hole uses plane shift to create a extra-dimensional space. When you put one inside the other bad things happen. But it doesn't say what happen when you put a BoH in another BoH, or a port hole in a port hole. What happens if you cast rope trick inside of a rope trick spell?

Only bags of holding and portable holes interact in that way. A bag of holding inside a bag of holding is OK, as is either inside anything else.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 12:16 AM
2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?

You'd have to be touching rope, but you could fly.


4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?

See invisible is a diviation: Rope Trick won't allow Divi's to wprk on it. So the spell fails.
This line:
The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it.

Yes, but no line of effect. Unless he uses Transdimensional metamagic. That can cross beyond plane.


Planeshift might work (but you can't see ther place to shift to). Since you can't choose where to shift (location arrived in random: 5 to 500 miles from area) to in the material plane: you can't reach there except by 1 million to 1 chance.

Also only if limit not reached (only 8 meduims can fit). If there are less you could planeshift there (if you can see it and guessed right area and were lucky).

However, -
Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes.



5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?

You can only dispel the rope. If you pull the rope in after climbing up: they can't dispel it (barring Transdimensional Metamagic)


8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?

You'd lose line of effect.
Yes your hands are outside, but D&D draws the line from you not just your hands.

graeylin
2010-02-14, 12:36 AM
if you can't climb a 10 foot rope, use a 1 foot rope, and just step in.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-14, 12:37 AM
Most of your questions are not clearly spelled out in the rules as they are written - which means you need to ask the DM when they come up. That said, as a DM....


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm

Some of these questions my group already has decided our answers too, but I wondered what others thought.

1) I understand that spells and area effects cannot cross the extra-dimensional interface. But what about air? Just normal air? The spell doesn't say anything about the extra-dimensional space creating air so does it just flow though? Does that mean sound can pass through? How about light? Is it dark inside a rope trick?

If you don't let it make or harvest air, then you've got the problem of "how much is inside" - which is a bit sticky of a question due to the nature of the Rope Trick (8 creatures... whether they're Fine or Colossal; what's the volume on that?). As a DM, I'd just say it lets air in through the window, and be done with that aspect.... although it also means that if you try to cast it underwater, you'll need a way to breath the water, as there isn't any air for the spell to bring in.


2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?

Again, not specified. As a DM, I'd say you need the rope to get in - but if you're flying well enough to go straight up (not all flying creatures can), the climb check is an auto-pass.


3) Can it be cast underwater? Does water rush in? If not then creature that breath underwater can't use the spell (they'd suffocate).

Nothing stops it from being cast underwater. For the second half of this, see my answer to 1.


4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?

Most forms of Plane Shift require a focus that's specific to the plane. There won't be one for a pocket plane you just created, so you can't get in with Plane Shift. Gate, maybe. A spell-like Plane Shift, maybe. But not with Plane Shift the actual spell. That's as far as the rules as written go on this question.

As for getting in with, say, flight - that I'd likely not permit, but see below.


5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?

Well... ignoring that most methods of making a portal require continuous concentration... RAW doesn't really address this. As a DM:

You can dispel the window if you can detect it, as it's part of the spell. That treats it like ending the spell, so everyone falls. If there's a portal there, I'd be granting a reflex save to dodge the opening, based on whatever the DC would be for the caster of the portal effect (so if you open a Gate beneath someone, it's DC 10 + spell level + spellcasting attribute modifier + relevant feats (such as Spell Focus (Conjouration))).


6) Since it opens a extra-dimensional interface that is like a 3'x5' window, can you cast it in areas that are smaller than 3'x5'? Like a small tunnel?

You need line of effect to the area. You can still cast it, but any section of the window you wouldn't have line of effect to doesn't exist. So you end up with a smaller window (and some ad-hock Escape Artist checks to get in through the reduced window size).


7) If you can cast it in area's smaller than 3'x5' then couldn't you use it to bypass doors? Cast it centered on a door, climb up this side & pull up rope, lower rope down on the other side and climb down.

Nope. See above. But that's just a table ruling.


8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?

Then you still don't have Line of Effect from *you*. No semi-invulnerable casting of spells at my table. At least, not for a 2nd level spell.


9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.

Sure. But that's a chat with your DM, and a few thousand in golds to research, plus a spellcraft check. Really, it's not that broken of a change.


10) Bags of holding use Leo's Secret Chest and Portable hole uses plane shift to create a extra-dimensional space. When you put one inside the other bad things happen. But it doesn't say what happen when you put a BoH in another BoH, or a port hole in a port hole. What happens if you cast rope trick inside of a rope trick spell?
Undefined. The Rope Trick spell description says that kind of thing is "hazardous", but offers no further explanation. The FAQ says ignore that line, but as written, you just gave your DM a blank check to do whatever he feels like. You might find yourself in the far realms, on the astral plane, or elsewhere (if he's feeling nice), or you might find that when you open the second trick, a couple of demons take advantage of the weakened fabric of reality to enter the prime material through the hole you punched.

Stegyre
2010-02-16, 04:11 PM
As JS says, these are really (for the most part) DM calls. Here is how I rule:


1) I understand that spells and area effects cannot cross the extra-dimensional interface. But what about air? Just normal air? The spell doesn't say anything about the extra-dimensional space creating air so does it just flow though? Does that mean sound can pass through? How about light? Is it dark inside a rope trick?
Air crosses, as would water, if made under water. This keeps the creatures inside from suffocating. However, because of the rule against transdimensional effects (i.e., a specific feat is required to get a transdimensional effect), you cannot use that air circulation to carry any effect: no poison cloud, etc. You cannot even smoke 'em out.


2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?
Problematic. I understand the reasons others have given for requiring use of the rope, but I say no. Here's why: nothing in the spell description explicitly allows you to seal the entrance. The spell gives you a hidden hideaway, but not an inviolate one. Hence, the rope is not needed, and if your foes can perceive the entrance (and reach it by some method), they can enter, even if you've drawn up the rope.

An inviolate shelter is a higher level spell (MMM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm)), and that security is a significant part of what you're paying for, imho.


3) Can it be cast underwater? Does water rush in? If not then creature that breath underwater can't use the spell (they'd suffocate).
Yes, whereupon it immediately fills with water. The space is essentially a vaccuum, when first created, and it automatically pulls in the local "atmosphere." However, you don't get any sort of suction effect, and you don't draw in any fish, plankton, etc. Don't ask why: it's magic, and as DM, I am simply handwaving that away. (This is to prevent the spell from being used for unintended purposes.)


4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?
If a foe can see the interface and reach it, he can enter it. Nothing in the spell seals the portal. Plane shift, however, does not work, for the reason already given (you cannot supply the focus requirement).


5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?
Another tough one. While I could see analogizing to the Bag of Holding rule (extra-dimensional contents become unavailable), that actually makes the Rope Trick better, by allowing players to seal the space by "dispelling" (though suffocation would then be a valid issue).

I would rule that, because dispelling effectively ends the spell, you get the same effect of the end of the spell: everyone is dumped out. While this arguably constitutes a transdimensional effect, it's a special case.

They get a reflex save to avoid the portal. No-save situations are disfavored.


6) Since it opens a extra-dimensional interface that is like a 3'x5' window, can you cast it in areas that are smaller than 3'x5'? Like a small tunnel? Yes. The window size is not a requirement for the spell. However, you would be unable to access the full size.


7) If you can cast it in area's smaller than 3'x5' then couldn't you use it to bypass doors? Cast it centered on a door, climb up this side & pull up rope, lower rope down on the other side and climb down.
No, for reasons already noted. (No l.o.e.)


8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?
Miyagi: Daniel-san, must talk. Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. Here, Rope trick, same thing. Either you Rope trick "in" or you Rope trick "out." You Rope trick "hand outside," [makes squish gesture] just like grape. Understand?


9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.
Sure, especially considering that psionics have such a variant (Psychoportive shelter).


10) Bags of holding use Leo's Secret Chest and Portable hole uses plane shift to create a extra-dimensional space. When you put one inside the other bad things happen. But it doesn't say what happen when you put a BoH in another BoH, or a port hole in a port hole. What happens if you cast rope trick inside of a rope trick spell?
In my universe (IMU), the spell fizzles: Rope Trick creates an extra-dimensional space from where you are in real space; it cannot do so from the fabric of another extra-dimensional space. (For the same reason, it would also fizzle if cast from within a Bag of Holding or Portable Hole.)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:29 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropetrick.htm

Some of these questions my group already has decided our answers too, but I wondered what others thought.

1) I understand that spells and area effects cannot cross the extra-dimensional interface. But what about air? Just normal air? The spell doesn't say anything about the extra-dimensional space creating air so does it just flow though? Does that mean sound can pass through? How about light? Is it dark inside a rope trick?

It is a physical substance, not the effect of a spell, so odds are it can pass through the entrance.


2) Do you have to climb the rope to get in? What if you can fly?

RAW: You have to climb the rope, which means it probably acts like a door knob. RAI: As long as you know where the entrance is.


3) Can it be cast underwater? Does water rush in? If not then creature that breath underwater can't use the spell (they'd suffocate).

You do know about Air Pressure, right? Odds are, the water won't go in that deep considering the space can't rotate.


4) Lets say I can see invisible. Now I can see the extra-dimensional interface. If I don't need to climb the rope can the enemy get it? Since he can see the opening can he plane shift in?

Plane Shift can't enter a Rope Trick, no matter if you can see it or not.


5) Can I cast dispel magic and dispel the spell and everyone falls out? If so, lets say I open a portal 1 inch under the window and cast dispel magic targeted on the portal, do they get any save not to fall through the portal?

If you're CL is high enough, if you target the spell itself, and if you can get the right setup. However, they'd likely get a save against the Portal (remember, these are people who can dodge an explosion centered on them and take no damage at all).


6) Since it opens a extra-dimensional interface that is like a 3'x5' window, can you cast it in areas that are smaller than 3'x5'? Like a small tunnel?

You can cast it anywhere that you can cast spells. I don't know if squeezing interferes with casting.


7) If you can cast it in area's smaller than 3'x5' then couldn't you use it to bypass doors? Cast it centered on a door, climb up this side & pull up rope, lower rope down on the other side and climb down.

Again, Squeezing rules. This would likely require an Escape Artist check.


8) Spells cannot go through it. How about if I stick my hand outside of the window and cast spells?

Maybe.


9) Could I research a variant spell that opens a doorway instead of a rope I have to climb up? While the climb DC is 5 I once failed twice trying to climb the rope before guards came into the room we were in.

Take 10 or cast Magnificent Mansion.


10) Bags of holding use Leo's Secret Chest and Portable hole uses plane shift to create a extra-dimensional space. When you put one inside the other bad things happen. But it doesn't say what happen when you put a BoH in another BoH, or a port hole in a port hole. What happens if you cast rope trick inside of a rope trick spell?

Ignore that stupid rule. RAW, the effects only happen if you open one of those two specific items within one another.