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magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 02:59 AM
This looks like a really fricking awesome spell for 3rd level, doing 1d8 per caster level to max 10d8, of sonic damage no less, and it can't be Evaded. Even if saved against, it still does almost as much damage as an Orb of Sound.

But I'd never heard of it until I noticed it browsing through Spell Compendium just then.

Is there something I'm missing?

Mystic Muse
2010-02-14, 03:05 AM
yes there is.

Uberchargers are better.:smalltongue:

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 03:11 AM
This looks like a really fricking awesome spell for 3rd level, doing 1d8 per caster level to max 10d8, of sonic damage no less, and it can't be Evaded. Even if saved against, it still does almost as much damage as an Orb of Sound.

But I'd never heard of it until I noticed it browsing through Spell Compendium just then.

Is there something I'm missing?

Compare it to fireball. It is higher damage dice, but only single target. It requires a fort save (which sucks because most big monsters have good fort saves). It can be "evaded" with mettle. It is still capped at 10d8. It is still a low level spell that requires a save. It is still direct damage.

Edit: The range is medium compared to Fireball's long. It is explicitly cancelled by silence.
On the other hand, it's pretty good for blastin' unattended objects.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 03:15 AM
yes there is.

Uberchargers are better.:smalltongue:

Direct damage spells can be useful, though. *points to Orb spells*

And this does almost as much damage as an Orb (more, if you haven't maxed out the CL cap), out of a lower level slot.

Comparing Maximised Sound Lance to Empowered Orb of Sound (and we all know that Maximise is suboptimal for its power boost) gives 80 damage compared to 56.25.

Useful for disrupting casting, wouldn't you say?

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 03:18 AM
Direct damage spells can be useful, though. *points to Orb spells*

And this does almost as much damage as an Orb (more, if you haven't maxed out the CL cap), out of a lower level slot.

The reason orbs are so saucy is because they deal damage on a touch attack regardless of saves, and they ignore SR. Soundlance falls short of meeting these key features.

Adumbration
2010-02-14, 03:20 AM
Compare it to fireball. It is higher damage dice, but only single target. It requires a fort save (which sucks because most big monsters have good fort saves). It can be "evaded" with mettle. It is still capped at 10d8. It is still a low level spell that requires a save. It is still direct damage.

Edit: The range is medium compared to Fireball's long. It is explicitly cancelled by silence.
On the other hand, it's pretty good for blastin' unattended objects.

It is a lower level spell, though. And I can't remember a single monster that has Mettle, and it's very rare even for PCs. So 99% of the time you're automatically dealing 5d8 damage, even against monsters with good fort saves.

I think it's a good spell. I've used it myself in arena type of games, especially against casters.

Temotei
2010-02-14, 03:22 AM
It is a lower level spell, though. And I can't remember a single monster that has Mettle, and it's very rare even for PCs. So 99% of the time you're automatically dealing 5d8 damage, even against monsters with good fort saves.

I think it's a good spell. I've used it myself in arena type of games, especially against casters.

Fireball is a 3rd level spell. :smallconfused:

Automatic 5d8 is assuming you're at least level ten. You get the spell at level five (minimum), so you could be doing 2d8.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 03:22 AM
Fireball is a 3rd level spell. :smallconfused:

Lower than Orbs, that is.

Adumbration
2010-02-14, 03:23 AM
Fireball is a 3rd level spell. :smallconfused:

Huh. That's funny, could've sworn it was 4th. Ah well, never used it. My other points stand, though.

Temotei
2010-02-14, 03:28 AM
Huh. That's funny, could've sworn it was 4th. Ah well, never used it. My other points stand, though.

Mettle is indeed rare. Evasion is more common, but monsters often are missing that as well. They more commonly have high Fortitude saves.

Fireball does less damage, but not by much, and it hits several enemies. It's not canceled by silence, and it uses Reflex as its half-damage save.

Against casters, this sound spell is probably better. Against everything else, there's Master Card fireball is pretty much better. Unless your enemies happen to have fire resistance.

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 03:30 AM
Huh. That's funny, could've sworn it was 4th. Ah well, never used it. My other points stand, though.

They do stand.

As a DM I've made more than one NPC with mettle. My point was that if fireball is counteracted by evasion, then soundlance is counteracted by mettle.

At level 10+, 5d8 is not enough against a single monster. 5d6 against 4 or more mooks is more reasonable.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 03:34 AM
They do stand.

As a DM I've made more than one NPC with mettle. My point was that if fireball is counteracted by evasion, then soundlance is counteracted by mettle.

Evasion IS more common than mettle, though, by a long way.


At level 10+, 5d8 is not enough against a single monster. 5d6 against 4 or more mooks is more reasonable.

Still quite useful as an easy concentration disrupter. It's also Sonic damage, which is less resisted IIRC.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 03:34 AM
It is a lower level spell, though. And I can't remember a single monster that has Mettle, and it's very rare even for PCs. So 99% of the time you're automatically dealing 5d8 damage, even against monsters with good fort saves.

I think it's a good spell. I've used it myself in arena type of games, especially against casters.

5d8 damage averages to 22.5 damage.
10d8 damage averages to 45 damage.

Compare to Empowered Magic Missile.

(5d4+5) x1.5 (at caster level 9) = 26.25 average damage. Splittable, not subject to resistances or immunities (against 99.99% enemies). No attack roll required, no save allowed. Hits incorporeal/ethereal reliably. Stopped only by short duration spells that are less likely to be memorized.

This is why Sound Lance is only 'ok'.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 03:36 AM
5d8 damage averages to 22.5 damage.
10d8 damage averages to 45 damage.

Compare to Empowered Magic Missile.

(5d4+5) x1.5 (at caster level 9) = 26.25 average damage. Splittable, not subject to resistances or immunities (against 99.99% enemies). No attack roll required, no save allowed. Hits incorporeal/ethereal reliably. Stopped only by short duration spells that are less likely to be memorized.

This is why Sound Lance is only 'ok'.

Shield.

Also, Sound Lance doesn't require an attack roll either.

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 03:39 AM
Shield.



How many monsters have shield active vs. have a good fort save?

Harumph!

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 03:39 AM
Shield.

Also, Sound Lance doesn't require an attack roll either.

But it allows a save. Magic Missile allows neither a save nor an attack roll.
It's just: Cast. Damage. That's all.

Shield is a short duration spell. Not highly likely to be cast by a typical caster (as compared to, say, mage armor).

Temotei
2010-02-14, 03:40 AM
And there's no such thing as force resistance.

Adumbration
2010-02-14, 03:41 AM
It is a cleric spell, though, unlike Magic Missile. Clerics get none too many blasty spells.

(I personally used it Sudden Maximized with an Ur-priest, so my stance may be biased.)

sonofzeal
2010-02-14, 03:42 AM
The comparison is Sound Lance vs Fireball.


Fireball has longer range, hits several people, and targets a better save.

Sound Lance does more damage, is harder to completely negate, and is a far better energy type.



.....eh, seems balanced to me.

Temotei
2010-02-14, 03:45 AM
It is a cleric spell, though, unlike Magic Missile. Clerics get none too many blasty spells.

(I personally used it Sudden Maximized with an Ur-priest, so my stance may be biased.)

True that it is a cleric spell, which basically proves that it's inferior.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 03:48 AM
It is a cleric spell, though, unlike Magic Missile. Clerics get none too many blasty spells.

(I personally used it Sudden Maximized with an Ur-priest, so my stance may be biased.)

Also, unlike fireball. But you've not had a problem comparing it to one of the worse wizard evocation spells out there.

Magic Missile is available to clerics via domain. Domain Spontanaety will allow it to be spamcast.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 04:24 AM
Cast Triplecast or whatever the one is that splits one slot into three if you really wanna spam it up. I was trying to find a nice blast spell yesterday and found the same problem...all the good ones are either medium range no save/SR, or medium range and allowed a save. And I still could have sworn there was a blast somewhere that did automatic damage on a RTA to the primary target and then burst for AoE that was Ref half for anyone who happened to be near the poor dude who ate it in the face.

Superglucose
2010-02-14, 05:22 AM
I think I've sufficiently proven that Magic Missile is indeed on the Cleric spell list if you get creative enough :smallbiggrin:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 05:25 AM
Cast Triplecast or whatever the one is that splits one slot into three if you really wanna spam it up. I was trying to find a nice blast spell yesterday and found the same problem...all the good ones are either medium range no save/SR, or medium range and allowed a save. And I still could have sworn there was a blast somewhere that did automatic damage on a RTA to the primary target and then burst for AoE that was Ref half for anyone who happened to be near the poor dude who ate it in the face.

Meteor Swarm?

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 05:29 AM
Meteor Swarm?

Meteor swarm functions now as the Druid 9 spell of similar form (only it's electric based)? And besides...it's sadly set at 24d6 max, which when I can uncap a lowly kelgore's firebolt to do full CL, seems kinda piddly :P

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 05:41 AM
Meteor swarm functions now as the Druid 9 spell of similar form (only it's electric based)? And besides...it's sadly set at 24d6 max, which when I can uncap a lowly kelgore's firebolt to do full CL, seems kinda piddly :P

Hey, you said you'd swear there was a spell which acted Meteor Swarmishly, so I pointed it out. Don't get cranky at me for answering your question.

Also, what is the Druid 9 spell you mention? And from whence does Kelgore's Firebolt come?

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 05:46 AM
Hey, you said you'd swear there was a spell which acted Meteor Swarmishly, so I pointed it out. Don't get cranky at me for answering your question.

Harumph!



Also, what is the Druid 9 spell you mention? And from whence does Kelgore's Firebolt come?

PHB2. I'd be interested in knowing how one would go about "uncapping" it. It looked like a pretty crappy spell to me (plus you'd have to be at least CL 25 to beat the swarm).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 05:55 AM
Harumph!

:smallconfused:


PHB2. I'd be interested in knowing how one would go about "uncapping" it. It looked like a pretty crappy spell to me (plus you'd have to be at least CL 25 to beat the swarm).

No ideas as to the Druid 9 spell?

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 05:56 AM
Hey, you said you'd swear there was a spell which acted Meteor Swarmishly, so I pointed it out. Don't get cranky at me for answering your question.

Also, what is the Druid 9 spell you mention? And from whence does Kelgore's Firebolt come?

I hadn't realized meteor swarm had direct fire capability...Kelgore's firebolt is PHB II, and the druid spell in question isn't up on the spell database, as Masters of the Wild wasn't completed on there. I'll have to go digging for my copy and then see if it was reprinted. Functionally, it was meteor swarm, only electricity damage.

EDIT : Uncapping is accomplished via Reserves of Strength, from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. +1-3 CL (for 1d6/3d6/5d6 damage if you're immune to stunning, which you are if you're a good little caster and have elemental body 24/7) and removal of dice caps on spells. If you have a ridiculous caster level, stuff like phantom steed is fun too, since mathematically you can fly at Mach 1+ :D

Dhavaer
2010-02-14, 05:57 AM
Hey, you said you'd swear there was a spell which acted Meteor Swarmishly, so I pointed it out. Don't get cranky at me for answering your question.

Also, what is the Druid 9 spell you mention? And from whence does Kelgore's Firebolt come?

Kelgore's Firebolt is from PHB2. 1d6/lvl, max 5d6, Ref half, single target at medium range. A good level 1 blasty spell because it scales so quickly.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 06:03 AM
EDIT : Uncapping is accomplished via Reserves of Strength, from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. +1-3 CL (for 1d6/3d6/5d6 damage if you're immune to stunning, which you are if you're a good little caster and have elemental body 24/7) and removal of dice caps on spells. If you have a ridiculous caster level, stuff like phantom steed is fun too, since mathematically you can fly at Mach 1+ :D

Reserves of Strength only breaks the level caps by 3, though. :smallconfused:

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 06:05 AM
Reserves of Strength only breaks the level caps by 3, though. :smallconfused:

Reserves of Strength can only add 3 to CL. It removes the cap outright. BIG difference.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 06:14 AM
Reserves of Strength can only add 3 to CL. It removes the cap outright. BIG difference.

No it doesn't. It says you can exceed the normal limits of a spell with it. Obviously referring to its increase in caster level.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-14, 06:21 AM
No it doesn't. It says you can exceed the normal limits of a spell with it. Obviously referring to its increase in caster level.


You can exceed the normal level-based limits of a spell with this feat...

There is no mention anywhere in the description of there being a new cap, only that the level-based limit is no longer existent. Most DM's will set the cap as you state, but RAW, the cap is completely gone.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 06:24 AM
There is no mention anywhere in the description of there being a new cap, only that the level-based limit is no longer existent. Most DM's will set the cap as you state, but RAW, the cap is completely gone.

It doesn't remove it. It doesn't get rid of it.

It allows you to exceed (go past it) with that feat. It doesn't refer to allowing anything else to exceed it. So other effects cannot, by one valid interpretation.

There's ambiguous enough wording there to allow it to be ruled either way. However, the most common sense valid interpretation is the one that doesn't let level 1 spells perform on par with level 9 spells.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 06:24 AM
There is no mention anywhere in the description of there being a new cap, only that the level-based limit is no longer existent. Most DM's will set the cap as you state, but RAW, the cap is completely gone.

It doesn't say the cap is no longer there.

Hallavast
2010-02-14, 06:25 AM
There is no mention anywhere in the description of there being a new cap, only that the level-based limit is no longer existent. Most DM's will set the cap as you state, but RAW, the cap is completely gone.

That's a subjective interpretation at best. Nice to see another Dragonlancer, though. Most posters here aren't familiar with DL specific stuff.

I know a few DMs that just arbitrarily take off the CL caps on damage spells to buff damage as well.


The Harumph is from a blazing saddles scene. It's a reference about absurd indignity.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 06:27 AM
It doesn't say the cap is no longer there.

Exactly.

For a fireball (cast by a level 15 wizard) without that feat, you have:

1d6/CL (15d6). Max 10d6=10d6

With that feat, you have:

1d6/CL (15d6). Max 10d6=10d6. + 5d6 (Reserves) =15d6

Other parts of the spell aren't allowed to bypass the cap. Only the reserves bonus.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 06:53 AM
Exactly.

For a fireball (cast by a level 15 wizard) without that feat, you have:

1d6/CL (15d6). Max 10d6=10d6

With that feat, you have:

1d6/CL (15d6). Max 10d6=10d6. + 5d6 (Reserves) =15d6

Other parts of the spell aren't allowed to bypass the cap. Only the reserves bonus.

Actually, you only have 13d6. It only adds 3 to your caster level. The 5d6 is how much damage YOU take if you're immune to stunning.

Seffbasilisk
2010-02-14, 06:58 AM
All I can offer is my personal experiance. I've had a few wizards pick up the spell, mostly as a flashy 'Knock' spell, or a 'shatter' specific to locks that ignored magic. You've generally better blasty spells, but for just 'hrrrrrrrrrrm' hole in something, it definitely ranks.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-14, 07:27 AM
All I can offer is my personal experiance. I've had a few wizards pick up the spell, mostly as a flashy 'Knock' spell, or a 'shatter' specific to locks that ignored magic. You've generally better blasty spells, but for just 'hrrrrrrrrrrm' hole in something, it definitely ranks.

So, the poor man's Disintegrate?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 07:53 AM
So, the poor man's Disintegrate?

Poor man's disintegrate that still leaves raw materials to loot.

Jarrick
2010-02-14, 08:24 AM
I've had a good deal of success spamming metamagic'd (read twinned, empowered, maximized) soundlances from a wand as an artificer. Gets a little pricey, but worth the look on your DMs face when you detonate his boss monster in a single round. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-02-14, 08:35 AM
This looks like a really fricking awesome spell for 3rd level, doing 1d8 per caster level to max 10d8, of sonic damage no less, and it can't be Evaded. Even if saved against, it still does almost as much damage as an Orb of Sound.

But I'd never heard of it until I noticed it browsing through Spell Compendium just then.

Is there something I'm missing?

It's against one target; fireballs hit multiple. A scorching ray does 12d6 as a 2nd level spell, about the same amount. Sound lance is still a lot for sonic damage (well, unless you get energy substitution for your scorching rays), but as said there are even cheesier spells that ignore SR in that book.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 08:36 AM
It's against one target; fireballs hit multiple. A scorching ray does 12d6 as a 2nd level spell, about the same amount. Sound lance is still a lot for sonic damage (well, unless you get energy substitution for your scorching rays), but as said there are even cheesier spells that ignore SR in that book.

Please note: Energy Substitution (sonic) does not exist.

ericgrau
2010-02-14, 08:38 AM
It does, and in core, without affecting spell level. Try Archmage. I'm sure there are a dozen other options and I know there's at least one you can get earlier that gives either acid or sonic or both.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 08:41 AM
It does, and in core, without affecting spell level. Try Archmage.

That's not Energy Substitution (sonic). It can turn things into sonic damage, but it's not Energy Substitution (sonic). The feat Energy Substitution cannot be applied to sonic damage.

ericgrau
2010-02-14, 08:44 AM
That's just swell but I was referring to the dozen things that do the same thing. You don't need that particular feat to substitute energy, nor does it matter. All that matters is if you can get sonic (or even acid, really), and yes you can.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 08:50 AM
That's just swell but I was referring to the dozen things that do the same thing. You don't need that particular feat to substitute energy, nor does it matter. All that matters is if you can get sonic (or even acid, really), and yes you can.

I know. But you said Energy Substitution, and that feat cannot choose sonic damage.

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 10:22 AM
And there's no such thing as force resistance.

No, but there's force immunity- ask a force dragon or a Void Incarnate.


I know. But you said Energy Substitution, and that feat cannot choose sonic damage.

Incorrect. In one of the FR books, it indicates that Energy Substitution can indeed be grabbed for sonic damage.

The Complete Arcane (? I think) version excludes it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 10:32 AM
No, but there's force immunity- ask a force dragon or a Void Incarnate.

The Complete Arcane (? I think) version excludes it.

What Force Dragon in ELH? Only Epic Dragons can do that.

Tarterian Dragons (non-epic Force dragons) just have +4 saves vs Force.
They don't have force immunity.

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 10:33 AM
I did in fact mean to reference the ELH force dragon. They can be used even if your group is nonepic... as long as they're baby ones.:smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-02-14, 10:45 AM
Incorrect. In one of the FR books, it indicates that Energy Substitution can indeed be grabbed for sonic damage.

The Complete Arcane (? I think) version excludes it.

Miniatures Handbook, so its 3.0. It had energy substituion as a +1 MM, but allowed you to choose sonic.

SilverStar
2010-02-14, 10:49 AM
Course, then there's this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution), which would indicate to most that it is indeed a legal choice.

Blasters have enough crap to deal with- between SR, saving throws overstripping save DCs, and energy resistances/immunities....

Adumbration
2010-02-14, 10:50 AM
There's also the spell Forceward in SpC pg. 98, that grants effective invulnerability to force effects.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 11:27 AM
Course, then there's this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Energy_Substitution), which would indicate to most that it is indeed a legal choice.

Blasters have enough crap to deal with- between SR, saving throws overstripping save DCs, and energy resistances/immunities....

That's from Deities and Demigods, which is superseded by Complete Arcane.

Boci
2010-02-14, 11:39 AM
Blasters have enough crap to deal with- between SR, saving throws overstripping save DCs, and energy resistances/immunities....

Searing spell/piercing cold?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-14, 11:59 AM
Searing spell/piercing cold?

Piercing cold still doesn't work on [cold] creatures.