Wizards' Duels On Screen and Off

[Hallavast]

So far, I've been dissapointed with Hollywood's portrayals of of Mystical Combat.

Star wars was good, but it lacked substance beyond swordfighting with lasers and throwing/choking stuff with the force.

Harry Potter's latest magical bouts were visually pleasing, but they were too simple and brief. It really only consists of two guys blasting each other until one overpowers the other.

Most other movies don't have real magic fights. Its usually one guy using magic against nonmagic foes.

I'd like to see a complex, visual, flashy, subtly/tactically styled fight between 2 or more magic wielding opponents in an epic but reasonably-scaled scene. Not interested in guns/technology battles. It doesn't have to be a bout between human wizards.

Does anybody know what I'm talking about and share my dissapointment? What are some good exceptions to this trend? What magical battles found in comics/manga/books/mythology would make good big screen adaptations for this kind of thing?

Let's hear your thoughts.

[Yarram]

Off the top of my head... I can't really think of any at all...
The only thing even remotely like what you're describing is Naruto.
The big problem, is that most authors never flesh magic out, and just use it to create the effect they want, so in a Wizards Duel they're either throwing pure mana at each other until the strongest wizard wins, or they both throw big flashy attacks at each other, and in the end it's the wizard with more 'mana' anyway.
Before any really cool wizards duel could ever happen, they'd need to explain exactly how, and what the limitations of magic are, and also create reasons for why pure mana wasn't feasible, and why intelligence could beat power if used appropriately.

EDIT: One of the books from the Chrestomanci series by Dianna Jones was pretty good. Pardon my spelling of the word.

[Dragero]

I remember one movie with pretty epic magic......don`t remember the name though!

[Goloman]

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction is a Star Wars book, telling us lots about fighting with lightsabers and using Force. Many details. And movies? No idea...

[Eldan]

Not in movies, no. I think I've seen some in books. Let me go to my library and think for a while.

[Dallas-Dakota]

Off the top of my head... I can't really think of any at all...
The only thing even remotely like what you're describing is Naruto.
The big problem, is that most authors never flesh magic out, and just use it to create the effect they want, so in a Wizards Duel they're either throwing pure mana at each other until the strongest wizard wins, or they both throw big flashy attacks at each other, and in the end it's the wizard with more 'mana' anyway.
Before any really cool wizards duel could ever happen, they'd need to explain exactly how, and what the limitations of magic are, and also create reasons for why pure mana wasn't feasible, and why intelligence could beat power if used appropriately.


And then they'd need to do that on-screen, in a short amount of time. And then they'd need the special effects/stuff budget for it.

And then actually add in a decent plot/stuff too...

[Liffguard]

There are some pretty epic magic duels in th Second Apocalypse series. They're pretty interesting due to a combination of two factors:
1) Bakker's beautiful descriptive prose
2) The cool metaphysics of the way the magic systems work

Basically there's three basic types of magic; the gnosis, the anagogis and the psukhe. The psukhe is the least powerful but has certain advantages unrelated to combat. It's based on passion and faith, and a major part of mastering it involves gouging out your own eyes.

The gnosis and the anagogis are both similar to each other, and are language based. Sorcerer's use "the god's voice" to dictate changes to reality. The way they differ is that the gnosis is more powerful because it uses purer language and is able to describe abstract effects whereas the anagogis has to use analogy.

For example, let's say two sorcerers want to create a shield. The anagogic sorcerer would describe a stone wall and use that analogy to create a barrier. The gnostic sorcerer would just say "nothing gets past this point."

[SmartAlec]

The shapeshifting duel between Merlin and Madam Mim in Disney's The Sword in the Stone was always a favourite.

[comicshorse]

I actually liked the duel between Eragon and Robert Caryle's character at the end of the Eragon movie

Sorry

[warty goblin]

I actually liked the duel between Eragon and Robert Caryle's character at the end of the Eragon movie

Sorry

Unlike the rest of the movie, I remember wanting to die very little during that part. Right up until Eregon won, because I had been holding out desperate hope that we could get a happy ending after all.

[Mando Knight]

Mahou Sensei Negima starts as a harem manga... but Akamatsu Ken always wanted to do a fighting manga. The mangaka does as he wishes, and magic duels ensue.

[endoperez]

Wow, I never realized magical battles are so rare on the big screen... Hard to believe, considering a single wizard could make a disaster movie all on his own.

[Thane of Fife]

The first of the Magic: the Gathering books, Arena (http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Gathering-Arena-Vol-1/dp/0061054240), was largely about mage duels, and it's a pretty good book. It's nothing like the other Magic books, in that it's actually about wizard duels, and they tend to be epic, with the mages throwing spells, raising defenses, summoning, etc.

[The_Snark]

I always kinda liked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s&feature=related)...

... what?

[Hallavast]

I always kinda liked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s&feature=related)...

... what?

:smalltongue:

Sadly, this is what prompted me to begin my search for a good magic battle.

[Totally Guy]

The finale of King's Quest 5 had a shape shifter wizard duel. That was pretty fun. But it's not worth solving all the puzzles to get there.

[Eldan]

I always kinda liked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s&feature=related)...

... what?

That's hilarious. Made my day. Well, the day started seven minutes ago, technically, but it's still good.

[Tyrant]

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction is a Star Wars book, telling us lots about fighting with lightsabers and using Force. Many details. And movies? No idea...
I'll second the mention of this book for anyone wondering why Force users don't just use Force powers against each other non stop (well, why they don't do it all the time anyway).

For movies, beyond Star Wars and Harry Potter I don't know of many. I think the battle between Palpatine and Yoda is a decent, if short, example.

Overall though, aside from ill defined powers, I think there is another problem. It seems to me that with these powers the first one to land a real solid hit will win, or at least it doesn't take very many hits. So, they are either over real quick or the two sit there and have their magic hit each other's magic over and over until one of the two slips past the other's defense.

I would love to see battles between wizards using something close to the full range of D&D spells (well, the flashy ones and not the instant win ones anyway). Not just fireballs and magic missiles. Things like Evard's Black Tenticles, Ring of Blades, Melf's Acid Arrow, and lots of other spells I don't know because I don't actually play D&D RPG.

[Jimp]

Some fights in the Avatar animated show are good. I haven't watched the series myself as the amount of filler is daunting but people I know have shown be bits of fights and they looked good.

[Prime32]

Mahou Sensei Negima
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (better than it sounds)
Naruto
Slayers (out of a party which maxes out at five people, four can use magic and most of their enemies use it as well)
Avatar (kungfu-based magic, some of the best choreographed fight scenes I've ever seen)
Fullmetal Alchemist

[Hallavast]

Mahou Sensei Negima
Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha (better than it sounds)
Naruto
Slayers (out of a party which maxes out at five people, four can use magic and most of their enemies use it as well)
Avatar (kungfu-based magic, some of the best choreographed fight scenes I've ever seen)
Fullmetal Alchemist

Is it really choreography if it's a cartoon? I mean, it would seem cartoons have an unfair advantage there...

[Seraph]

Is it really choreography if it's a cartoon? I mean, it would seem cartoons have an unfair advantage there...

choreography isn't limited to live action, as its defined as designing sequences of motion. Animation hardly has a "benefit" either, since you have to know exactly how things have to look or it all gets thrown off.

[Hallavast]

Animation hardly has a "benefit" either, since you have to know exactly how things have to look or it all gets thrown off.

Same with live action.

[The Glyphstone]

Same with live action.

I think he's referring more towards the 'uncanny valley' effect as opposed to body movements as much as facial features/appearances. Live action with bad choreography is...actors performing bad choreography, or performing choreography badly. Animated action done badly is not only bad choreography, but bad choreography done by not-quite-human things.

[thompur]

The shapeshifting duel between Merlin and Madam Mim in Disney's The Sword in the Stone was always a favourite.

Seconded. This was my first thought as well.

[ArlEammon]

The fight between Fin Raziel and Bavmorda in Willow.

[thompur]

I always kinda liked this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZqRzHnI8s&feature=related)...

... what?

Absolutely! One of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite movies. One important piece of advise though: NEVER watch WIZARDS if you have a temperature over 100 degrees. You get the most bizaare fever dreams!!:smalleek:

[Killer Angel]

The shapeshifting duel between Merlin and Madam Mim in Disney's The Sword in the Stone was always a favourite.

I really really really hate when I read the OP, and an image came to my mind, then I quickly scroll the thread, hoping no one remember that, only to find I've been ninja'd one day before... :smalltongue:
Well, at least I'll give the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lzf1XroT6w&feature=related).



I'd like to see a complex, visual, flashy, subtly/tactically styled fight between 2 or more magic wielding opponents in an epic but reasonably-scaled scene.

You asked for it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)! :smallbiggrin:

[Corlindale]

I would have to agree with Avatar: The Last Airbender. There's a ton of really cool looking magical duels in that - even if it is intermixed with various martial art styles. It IS pretty much confined to people throwing the four elements at each other in various ways, though.

Otherwise I have to agree with the OP - there is a disappointing lack of really cool magical duels, especially in live action movies. Of course this is somewhat related to the general shortage of good and/or big budget fantasy movies. There are some fairly decent ones in the Harry Potter movies, though.

[SolkaTruesilver]

If litterature is allowed, I will post in the Gromph Vs Lich duel in the 4th book of the War of the Spider Queen.

That was a long-drawn, exhaustive duel. Filled with surprised and turnaround, with both combattants being actually clever but nervous about the fight. Makes you not want to piss them off, or be anywhere near them.

[Da'Shain]

I actually rather enjoyed the Gandalf vs. Saruman fight in LotR. My friends tell me this is blasphemy, but oh well.

For a ridiculously cheesy sequence that is still unbelievable amounts of fun, there's the climax of the first Mummy movie (or the recent "remake", I should say, not the "first"). Which isn't really a "magical duel", but if you think of it as an uber-Necromancer vs. an adventuring party with a Truenamer in it then it becomes pretty close to one.

I know you mentioned Star Wars in the OP, but I have to say, despite hating the vast majority of the movie myself, the duel between Yoda and Palpatine was pretty close to what you're looking for.

Otherwise, all the examples I'm thinking of come from books. I kept on wanting to mention Raistlin vs. Fistandantilus, or Pyrates vs. Dinivan, or Rand vs. Asmodean, or any of a number of scenes, but none of them, sadly, appear outside of a page.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I actually rather enjoyed the Gandalf vs. Saruman fight in LotR. My friends tell me this is blasphemy, but oh well.

.

It was awesome. Pure willpower clash. Having fireballs and lightning would have been too... cheesy..

The other duel (Gandalf the White casting out the possession of Theoden) was also well made.

[Voldecanter]

What about Willow/Dark Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer , there are some very cool Magical Battles/Duels from this character!

......and don't worry once Eye of the World , The Great Hunt and The Dragon Reborn are made into HUGE budget Fantasy Films (Eye of the World is coming out in a year and a Half !) you will see some AWESOME Magical battles ! (Well the ones I really want to see are from the books : The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven , but those will only get made based on the popularity of the first three films )

[Xondoure]

I have to say the wizard's duels in the Xanth novels are always fun, but they aren't really the epic battle your looking for. The closest you get to that with strategic use of a clearly defined magic system would be Fullmetal Alchemist.