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Melamoto
2010-02-14, 09:42 AM
I have read through the class, checked all the class features, and now I'm wondering how many minutes it took to create the class. I've come to the conclusion that it was, at most, 10.
2 minutes to come up with the class.
1 minute to think up the stats and requirements.
1 minute for each of the class features.

Lets look at the requirements:
Requires Full BAB - Ok, so it's a pure melee class
Also Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft - Ok, I can the fluff reason for this, but it uses up almost, if not all of a warrior's precious few skill points on something that is otherwise no use to them.
Then Imp Init and Weapon Focus. Why weapon focus? That makes no sense.

Then the basic class:
Gives Full BAB - Ok, looks good.
Bad Fort, Ref, and good Will - Why? It should obviously have a good will save, but this is obviously a class for the serious fighter. Why give them a bad Fort save?

And now the class features:
Magical Defense - One of the most sensible and useful class features of the class. It just about makes up for the bad fort saves.
Weapon Bond - So this is why you need Weapon Focus. I'm pretty sure this must have been tacked on, because what does this have to do with the class concept at all? Perhaps if you just got a damage bonus vs. casters in general it would make sense, but this seems random to me.
Mind over Magic - The best class feature of the class.
Vicious Strike - The 3 times your character ever has to actually use this will likely not need it.
Auravision - Oh, so you can use arcane sight at will? Cool. Oh, it's only detect magic? That's alright, I guess. Oh wait, you can just tell how many different auras there are in front of you. But you can do it as a free action!
Nondetection Cloak - Let's do some maths on this. By using the Occult Slayer level as a caster level in a spell that uses an opposed caster level check, these are the chances an enemy caster of equal level has of bypassing the effect at any given level.
{table=head]Level|Chance
9|75%
10|75%
11|80%
12|85%
13|90%
14|95%
15+|100%[/table]
Really useful.
Blank Thoughts - Immunity to mind-affecting abilities: Congratulations, you are now on par with most enemies. At least you get it 5 levels before the Wizard gets Mind Blank, making this and Nondetection Cloak completely obsolete. Well, actually the latter is already completely obsolete at level 15 anyway.


So, I'd personally sum it up as

Cons:
-5/7 class features are mostly useless
-Bad saves
-Skill heavy requirements
-Makes you take Weapon Focus

Pros:
-Turn a spell 2/day
-Otherwise straight melee classes can enter the Suel Arcanamach 1 level earlier with this class.

Am I just late to realise this, or is their some hidden, redeeming value I'm missing?

Swiftest
2010-02-14, 09:49 AM
No, there's no redeeming value -- the class is awful. IMO it should get bonus feats from among the mage slayer feat tree or some such.

9mm
2010-02-14, 09:50 AM
no... also with mind over magic, by RAW you must take an action to use a free action which means you can't trigger it all that often. The Occult Slayer is a great example of WoTC not bothering to understand their own damn game.


No, there's no redeeming value -- the class is awful. IMO it should get bonus feats from among the mage slayer feat tree or some such.
I'm fairly sure that the occult slayer was written before the Mage Slayer line.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 09:51 AM
Complete Warrior sadly came first in designers work so they didn't push the buttons yet. If they redid CW they could make the classes a lot better, but that would never have happened (they never redid CP either).

Gamerlord
2010-02-14, 09:52 AM
Complete warrior= broken content.

Case in point:
Samurai (In a bad way.)
Occult Slayer (In a bad way.)
Hulking hurler
Master of the unseen hand (In a bad way.)

I could go on and on....

EDIT: THE NINJAS! THEY BURN!

Boci
2010-02-14, 10:08 AM
So to fix it:
1. Change requirements from weapon focus to mage slayer and remove skill requirement.
2. Give it a good fortitude save.
3. Vicious Strike: Add that anytime an occult slayer forces a caster to make a concentration check to retain their spells, the DC: increases by twice their PrC level, possibly allow them instead to full attack a mage currently casting a spell, or replace this with pierce magical concealment as a bonus feat even if the preqs are not met.
4. Aura vision: Allow them to also learn the school of one aura / round.
5. Nondetection cloak: Either make the caster level equal to their class levels, or their PrC level +10.

How does that sound?

Pechvarry
2010-02-14, 02:01 PM
Nondetection cloak: Either make the caster level equal to their class character levels, or their PrC level +10.

Yep. Sounds good to me. And I'd go for the Vicious strike>>Pierce Magical Concealment route.

Melee can't have nice things, but melee classes are/were the most popular, so their books always get done first. They did the same thing with Sword and Fist. Ghostwalker of ugh, Ninja of Crescent Moon, Large and In Charge...

And I understand they used this format of "melee source books first!" in 4e, too.

Thurbane
2010-02-14, 09:11 PM
One point I disagree on: removing the skill reqs. Maybe lower them, but why remove them altogther? It makes a fair degree of sense that someone who hunts down spellcasters know a little something about how magic works. My 2 coppers, anyway.

...on a tangent, what do people think of the Witch Slayer PrC from ToM?

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-14, 09:16 PM
Isn't that the one that gets Mettle at level 2?

Boci
2010-02-14, 09:24 PM
One point I disagree on: removing the skill reqs. Maybe lower them, but why remove them altogther? It makes a fair degree of sense that someone who hunts down spellcasters know a little something about how magic works. My 2 coppers, anyway.

Magebane requires spellcraft 2 ranks, which I think should be enough.


Isn't that the one that gets Mettle at level 2?

Yep. Their cap forces a wizard to make a will save DC: 20 + Cha mod or lobe affected by an AMF for 1 round. As a swift action. Not bad, but they will need to roll low and it has a 5 round recharge.

Thurbane
2010-02-14, 09:27 PM
You could pump up the DC with Ability Focus and Veil of Allure, but yes, most casters are going to have pretty good Will saves.

Boci
2010-02-14, 09:32 PM
You could pump up the DC with Ability Focus and Veil of Allure, but yes, most casters are going to have pretty good Will saves.

You could go Hexblade 3 / Paladin of -2 on will saves with aura 3, possibly taking dilate aura. Apart from that, you can spend 2 feats to bind Focular and the list goes on, but most require the caster to be within 10ft of you.

Pechvarry
2010-02-15, 12:23 AM
You could go Hexblade 3 / Paladin of -2 on will saves with aura 3,

Tyranny. Though I much prefer your name for it (in addition to making me lol, we ignore alignment restrictions -- I'm playing a lawful good paladin of tyranny currently).

Noodles2375
2010-02-15, 02:33 AM
So to fix it:
1. Change requirements from weapon focus to mage slayer and remove skill requirement.
2. Give it a good fortitude save.
3. Vicious Strike: Add that anytime an occult slayer forces a caster to make a concentration check to retain their spells, the DC: increases by twice their PrC level, possibly allow them instead to full attack a mage currently casting a spell, or replace this with pierce magical concealment as a bonus feat even if the preqs are not met.
4. Aura vision: Allow them to also learn the school of one aura / round.
5. Nondetection cloak: Either make the caster level equal to their class levels, or their PrC level +10.

How does that sound?

Alternatively for 5, you could consider just giving them the Illithid Slayer's Cerebral Blind ability. Even eliminating the psionic focus requirement, considering Occult Slayer doesn't boost caster/manifester levels at all, I still don't think that ability is overpowered.

faceroll
2010-02-15, 03:05 AM
Complete Warrior sadly came first in designers work so they didn't push the buttons yet. If they redid CW they could make the classes a lot better, but that would never have happened (they never redid CP either).

They did remake CWar; it's called The Book of Nine Swords.

AsuroftheStair
2010-02-15, 03:46 AM
The relative badness of the class comes from the fact that it was adapted from a 3.0 Dragon Magazine, & I believe it was 5 levels instead of 10 at that point. The next time I have my hands on that issue I'll see if it was good even then or not.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:56 AM
They did remake CWar; it's called The Book of Nine Swords.

Which also has shining examples of bad writing, like Iron Heart Surge.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-15, 06:38 AM
The book does really stand out for the rarity of the badly put together stuff though, I'd say it's got about the lowest percentage of broken content in any 3.5 book, sure they missed some but they'd worked out what the major holes in the system were by that point and maybe even read some of the online Opti-fu stuff.... shame it's about the last book they made for 3.5...:smallfrown:

Boci
2010-02-15, 08:23 AM
Which also has shining examples of bad writing, like Iron Heart Surge.

Except in ToB there is hardly any badly written. 3 problematic maneuvers (IHS, White Raven Tactics and firesnake) all of which are easy to fix and a PrC thats noticably more powerful than all the others in the book but not game breaking (without cheese). Now try listing all the badly written material in Complete Warrior.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 10:19 AM
You could go Hexblade 3 / Paladin of -2 on will saves with aura 3, possibly taking dilate aura. Apart from that, you can spend 2 feats to bind Focular and the list goes on, but most require the caster to be within 10ft of you.

Catfolk! they get a cha boost to help with the save, and 40 foot land speed to get close.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 10:26 AM
a PrC thats noticably more powerful than all the others in the book but not game breaking (without cheese).

Ruby Knight WINdicator is game breaking. I agree that ToB is in general a great book, but some stuff are outright broken.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 10:31 AM
Ruby Knight WINdicator is game breaking. I agree that ToB is in general a great book, but some stuff are outright broken.

RKV is only game breaking if Divine Impestous is allowed more than 1 use/round (which it goes against RAW). Actually enforcing RAW on this one is safer than not. Chuck still makes things die, but he's a Nova build anyway. And it's more the Cleric's fault than the Bo9S'.


The book does really stand out for the rarity of the badly put together stuff though, I'd say it's got about the lowest percentage of broken content in any 3.5 book, sure they missed some but they'd worked out what the major holes in the system were by that point and maybe even read some of the online Opti-fu stuff.... shame it's about the last book they made for 3.5...


IIRC, the last actual Splat with Crunch was Dragons of Eberron. The Bo9S was a while before the end, at least a month before they announced 4E.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-15, 10:34 AM
IIRC, the last actual Splat with Crunch was Dragons of Eberron. The Bo9S was a while before the end, at least a month before they announced 4E.

Hence about the last book rather than the last book..

Boci
2010-02-15, 01:01 PM
Ruby Knight WINdicator is game breaking.

Hence the "without cheese" clause, which should really go without saying.


I agree that ToB is in general a great book, but some stuff are outright broken.

Care to name the other stuff?

Seatbelt
2010-02-15, 01:21 PM
Care to name the other stuff?


Melee gets nice things. Seems broken to me.

mregecko
2010-02-15, 02:32 PM
I honestly don't understand your objections here... I have played both Melee-focused AND archery-focused Occult Slayers, and can honestly say, if anything, the PrC is on the strong side for what it requires.

1.) Skills Prereqs: If you are going to be a BDF, you're honestly barking up the wrong tree if you expect to be a skill monkey. I don't care if I allocate my skills cross-class to Spellcraft or to the rarely-useful Jump/Climb/Run skills that I'm probably going to dump them into.

2.) Feat Prereqs: Improved Iniatiative is an solid feat. Period. High levels, any bonus to Initiative is useful. Weapon Focus isn't great, but is a prereq for a lot more solid feats (Weapon Spec -> Melee Weapon Mastery), and isn't a bad choice. And you yourself said it makes sense, probably with your Bonded Weapon.

3.) Magical Defense - useful, agree with OP.

4.) Weapon Bond - Really, what does it have to do with the class concept? It is an Occult. Slayer. E.g. things that probably have spells and SLA's? Ergo, you do more damage to those things. Like a slayer would. I think that's kinda self-explanatory. This is essentially a free magebane weapon enhancement.

5.) Mind over magic -- agreed, awesome feature.

6.) Vicious Strike - Actually incredibly powerful for archer / occult slayers. Ready an action to interrupt, and the DC for keeping the spell just doubled.

7.) Auravision - Keep it on. Constantly. Tell your DM "I activate it every round unless otherwise stated." As soon as magical auras ping on your magic-sonar, maybe there's an invisible creature? Or a magical trap? What other fighter can do this?

8.) Nondetection cloak - Yeah. This sucks and is poorly thought out.

9.) Blank Thoughts - Honestly, THE MOST powerful class feature. You get Mind Blank. As early as 10th level. Outside of custom-made magic items, how else is ANY PC fighter type going to gain Mind Blank without it costing valuable 8th level caster slots?

So not only do you get some pretty awesome class features, full BAB, and good Will Saves (something most fighters LACK), you get them over only FIVE levels, and with feat entries that are actually useful. That leaves you enough time to go into a 10-lvl PrC and prep for epic levels.

So.... What's the beef with this PrC again?

My Hexblade 4 / Ftr 4 / Barb 2 / Occult Slayer 5 had saves around +25 for all spells and SLA's, Mettle, Evasion (ring), spell-turning, Mind Blank, and pretty darn great damage output. Outside of Rays, she was near impossible to kill with magic.

-- MrE