The Daemons of the Warp vs The Demons of the Abyss

[Volkov]

Ever in the search for more enemies, The Chaos God's endless Daemon horde has poured into the Greyhawk setting, attacking all the planes at once. An infinite force pours into the Abyss, meeting the infinite hordes of Demons native there. And because evil, much less the chaotic variety, does not get along that well, an epic battle ensues. Now because both hordes are infinite, this is simply a question of who would have the upper hand.

[AgentPaper]

See: The Blood War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War).

[Volkov]

See: The Blood War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_War).

Daemons are a completely different force than Devils and Yugoloths.

[AgentPaper]

Daemons are a completely different force than Devils and Yugoloths.

Two infinite, supremely powerful forces fighting agaisnt each other until the end of time in massive battles that in the end don't really have any effect since both sides are, as noted, infinite.

Sounds like the Blood War.

[The Rose Dragon]

But devils are not infinite. They are just very, very large.

[Volkov]

Two infinite, supremely powerful forces fighting agaisnt each other until the end of time in massive battles that in the end don't really have any effect since both sides are, as noted, infinite.

Sounds like the Blood War.

Daemons are more disorderly than devils. Well, Tzeentch's daemons have a certain order, but no human would ever be able to figure out the order.

[AgentPaper]

But devils are not infinite. They are just very, very large.

Wait, they aren't? I thought that was the whole point of the blood war.

Well then, that changes things significantly. Is Asmodeus in this fight? If he is, then the devils might win by him doing some planar trickery, assuming he can out-trickery Tzeentch, which would be impressive to say the least. If he's not, then it's only a matter of time before chaos overwhelms the devils.

[Volkov]

Wait, they aren't? I thought that was the whole point of the blood war.

Well then, that changes things significantly. Is Asmodeus in this fight? If he is, then the devils might win by him doing some planar trickery, assuming he can out-trickery Tzeentch, which would be impressive to say the least. If he's not, then it's only a matter of time before chaos overwhelms the devils.

The Daemons are attacking every plane and every planet at once. And plus, the main focus in this are the Demons of the Abyss.

[Selrahc]

Daemons are more disorderly than devils. Well, Tzeentch's daemons have a certain order, but no human would ever be able to figure out the order.

Khorne's daemons work on an orderly military basis. He is the only one that does.

[Oslecamo]

Khorne's daemons work on an orderly military basis. He is the only one that does.

On the other hand, Khorne loathes sorcery, and has no psyker demons whatsoever.

Again, the D&D demons have much better magic. The basic daemon troops don't really have much on this field. The basic D&D demons have a much better array of tricks.

There's the 4 Warp gods. The Abyss has at least 14 demon lords. Again, not very pretty for the daemons.

Also, it's not very clear if the daemons of the warp are infinite. The warp fills a limited space on the galaxy. The Abyss on the other hand is truly infinite.

On the other hand the Warp daemons are mainly fueled by the nightmares, feelings and souls of mortals.

The Abyss is fueled by the sheer chaotic destructive energies of the begginning of times. They're really not out there to conquer to corrupt. They're out there to destroy everything and everyone.


Abyss wins.

[crazedloon]

The warp entities win because their very essence is mutable at their own whim. They can change their own physical size at a thought and can manipulate the world around them to the point they can emulate such spells as wish.

Given that the Warp breaches the abyss than the Deamons from the Warp can warp and manipulate the demons from the Abyss with simple thought. With the ability to interact with the abyss the chaos gods would reshape it in thier own image and swiftly take over

[Volkov]

On the other hand, Khorne loathes sorcery, and has no psyker demons whatsoever.

Again, the D&D demons have much better magic. The basic daemon troops don't really have much on this field. The basic D&D demons have a much better array of tricks.

There's the 4 Warp gods. The Abyss has at least 14 demon lords. Again, not very pretty for the daemons.

Also, it's not very clear if the daemons of the warp are infinite. The warp fills a limited space on the galaxy. The Abyss on the other hand is truly infinite.

On the other hand the Warp daemons are mainly fueled by the nightmares, feelings and souls of mortals.

The Abyss is fueled by the sheer chaotic destructive energies of the begginning of times. They're really not out there to conquer to corrupt. They're out there to destroy everything and everyone.


Abyss wins.

And each Chaos god is far, far more potent than any deity D&D has. Tzeentch can easily destroy a world, and he's not the strongest of the lot. Khorne could probably slay Demogorgon with ease. You know how blood-thirsters can cleave planets in half? A very, very powerful one tried to attack khorne, and all it did was leave a scratch in his armor, and Khorne beat him in one blow.

Plus there are other Chaos gods besides the main four, but they're more minor, but at least two of them are about to become major deities.

Also, Warhammer stresses that the Daemons of the warp are endless in number, and that distance doesn't mean jack diddly squat in the warp.

[Weezer]

You know how blood-thirsters can cleave planets in half?

No I don't know, source please?

It seems a bit ridiculous to say that bloodthirsters can cleave planets in half when they make use of/require large numbers of minion daemons to help them conquer planets. Also they can actually be killed in single combat (grey knight grand masters, inquisitor lords etc.) which wouldnt seem possible for someone who can cleave a planet in half.

Also I don't think we should factor the chaos gods in, they never (at least to my knowledge) take active part in the various invasions into real space.

[Volkov]

No I don't know, source please?

It seems a bit ridiculous to say that bloodthirsters can cleave planets in half when they make use of/require large numbers of minion daemons to help them conquer planets. Also they can actually be killed in single combat (grey knight grand masters, inquisitor lords etc.) which wouldnt seem possible for someone who can cleave a planet in half.

Also I don't think we should factor the chaos gods in, they never (at least to my knowledge) take active part in the various invasions into real space.

Inside the eye of terror, in the book black heresy, the blood-thirster in it cleaves a planet in half with his axe and bats one half into the system's sun.

[warty goblin]

No I don't know, source please?

It seems a bit ridiculous to say that bloodthirsters can cleave planets in half when they make use of/require large numbers of minion daemons to help them conquer planets. Also they can actually be killed in single combat (grey knight grand masters, inquisitor lords etc.) which wouldnt seem possible for someone who can cleave a planet in half.

Here's a simile: Consider a nuke. You can destroy a city with it just fine. You can't really prevent street crime with it unless you destroy the city though. You still need police or whathaveyou employing lesser amounts of force than kill everything.

As to fighting one and winning, that's simple: Just. Don't. Get. Hit.


Also I don't think we should factor the chaos gods in, they never (at least to my knowledge) take active part in the various invasions into real space.
There was that whole Horus Heresy thingy, when Horus pretty clearly had the Fiendish Four along for the ride.

[Texas_Ben]

Also I don't think we should factor the chaos gods in, they never (at least to my knowledge) take active part in the various invasions into real space.

The Chaos gods, if I'm not mistaken, don't take an active hand into their dealings with realspace because they're busy plotting and scheming against each other and other chaos entities. Something like an incursion from the Abyss seems like it would be big enough that it would grab their attention.

[Matar]

Well, how is this working exactly?

Are the Daemons trying to invade the Abyss? Well then, the Abyss wins. Mainly because it's infinite in number, with an infinite amount of demons. So, you know, it's sorta impossible for them to win.

Are the Demons trying to invade The Warp or whatever? Then it'd be an endless Blood War. From what I can tell, only so many Demons can get inside The Warp at one time, like a bottle neck, so all the Daemons have to do is hold them back. Which they should be able to do.

Are they both trying to take over a planet/galaxy? I'd give it to the Daemons. They seem to be a lot better at the whole corruption thing.

[Volkov]

Well, how is this working exactly?

Are the Daemons trying to invade the Abyss? Well then, the Abyss wins. Mainly because it's infinite in number, with an infinite amount of demons. So, you know, it's sorta impossible for them to win.

Are the Demons trying to invade The Warp or whatever? Then it'd be an endless Blood War. From what I can tell, only so many Demons can get inside The Warp at one time, like a bottle neck, so all the Daemons have to do is hold them back. Which they should be able to do.

Are they both trying to take over a planet/galaxy? I'd give it to the Daemons. They seem to be a lot better at the whole corruption thing.
The Daemons are equally endless, every bad thought the universe has gives birth to a warp entity, not to mention some just randomly spawn because Chaos is Chaos. While others spawn at the whims of the gods of chaos.

[Oslecamo]

And each Chaos god is far, far more potent than any deity D&D has. Tzeentch can easily destroy a world, and he's not the strongest of the lot. Khorne could probably slay Demogorgon with ease.
Says who? As I pointed out, Warp Gods are powered by mortals. Demon Lords are powered by the raw chaotic essence of the multiverse.

Plus, destroying planets with epic magic is easy. Think more of destroying galaxies(and even universes) as the true power of D&D magic. And creating them also.



You know how blood-thirsters can cleave planets in half? A very, very powerful one tried to attack khorne, and all it did was leave a scratch in his armor, and Khorne beat him in one blow.

Funny thing, that bloodthirster turned in Khorne because he was tricked. And D&D demons are quite adept at corrupting and spreading chaos. The more probable outcome is that all alliances are quickly forgoten when the sugestions and charms start flying around and it's a massive free for all. In wich case it's a victory for the Abyss.



Plus there are other Chaos gods besides the main four, but they're more minor, but at least two of them are about to become major deities.

And there's also more demon lords besides the main 14. There's probably infinite of them.



Also, Warhammer stresses that the Daemons of the warp are endless in number, and that distance doesn't mean jack diddly squat in the warp.
Neither does time. Or logic. Or anything else actualy, being a big furnace of chaotic energy after all.

But the Abyss is diferent. Each section has it's own rules. Crazy rules. Cut a planet in half? Each half grows fangs and closes upon you.

And the Abyss itself, unlike the Warp, is kinda sentient. It's from where everything in D&D originated (while the Warp was created). All other first gods were once demons who managed to get free and "ascend" from it. The Abyss wasn't happy. It wanted them back. So it created demons. To fight the Abyss is to fight the very force that originated the multiverse.

You cannot conquer the Abyss. You can escape away from it, or you can plunge into it and become one of it's pawns to forever spread destruction.

[Volkov]

Destroying or consuming planets is very, very difficult for demon lords to do. Obox-ob could only do so with a very substantial cult on a planet that actively worked to bring the planet it. And he is extremely powerful as Demon lords go.

[Fan]

Um, the Epic Magic deal isn't actually RAW, as producing Epic Spells is technically Home Brew, and with Infinite Loops (Obviously. I don't see why people need to state that things that the Game Designers OBVIOUSLY never intended to be done need to be banned.) banned, I'd LOVE to see you get the 1^10^10th 9th level spells to blow up a planet.

That, and your forgetting that if we meld magic verses, Epic Magic would constitute some MAJOR mind frack on the Arch Devils (Who aren't even IMMUNE to Mind Affecting spells, and considering that they broke the Will of Horus the Emperor's Favored Son, who likely had dozens of anti mind control devices on.), and then you have Asmodeus, Daemon Primarch of Slannesh.

And no one wants that.

[Thane of Fife]

I'd LOVE to see you get the 1^10^10th 9th level spells to blow up a planet.

I suspect that that math doesn't work out the way you intended it to.

More on topic, I don't believe that daemons can sustain their physical forms for extended periods of time outside of the warp, so that seems like it might make their victory a bit tricky.

[Fan]

I suspect that that math doesn't work out the way you intended it to.

More on topic, I don't believe that daemons can sustain their physical forms for extended periods of time outside of the warp, so that seems like it might make their victory a bit tricky.

Twas a intentional exaggeration... Bad math proves a point

Point is, a Planet has a LOT of HP, and you need TIME, and MONEY to research epic spells (more then any single Arch Demon has in his hoard. I've seen their drops.)... They don't have enough money, as they don't get the Layer of Greed like devils in other mythologies/things get.

[Eldan]

Get a few million cultists together. That should do the trick. Per BoVD, a soul is worth 10 XP.

Anyway. DnD magic is indeed ridiculous on epic levels. It doesn't matter if a bloodthirster can split a planet, he can't split a wizard. Why? Because he'll never find him.

[Volkov]

Get a few million cultists together. That should do the trick. Per BoVD, a soul is worth 10 XP.

Anyway. DnD magic is indeed ridiculous on epic levels. It doesn't matter if a bloodthirster can split a planet, he can't split a wizard. Why? Because he'll never find him.

Said wizard will notice a sudden lack of an atmosphere and a very large increase in temperature and radiation as the planet careens into the sun. Not to mention the huge amount of damage the impact would cause, the energy needed to send a planet into it's sun is enormous.

[Fan]

Get a few million cultists together. That should do the trick. Per BoVD, a soul is worth 10 XP.

Anyway. DnD magic is indeed ridiculous on epic levels. It doesn't matter if a bloodthirster can split a planet, he can't split a wizard. Why? Because he'll never find him.

That's also assuming that they HAVE epic wizards... Because last I checked, most of the arch devils didn't even HAVE wizard levels, let alone enough for epic casting.

And there are NO epic Devils in the Epic Handbook, meaning that by RAW the only Epic Devils that exist are the precious few Arch devils that bothered to be epic casters, and Slannesh, and Tzeentch can easily out class them Sorcery wise, as I believe each is a Alpha Plus level Psyker.

[Thane of Fife]

Twas a intentional exaggeration... Bad math proves a point

Point is, a Planet has a LOT of HP, and you need TIME, and MONEY to research epic spells (more then any single Arch Demon has in his hoard. I've seen their drops.)... They don't have enough money, as they don't get the Layer of Greed like devils in other mythologies/things get.

No, I meant in the other direction.

1^10^10 still just equals 1. See here (http://www.google.com/search?q=1^10^10&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).

[crazedloon]

Also Tzeentch knows all future possibilities and past, with the interpretations of the fateweaver he can pretty accurately plan anything (and everything)
His fortress destroys all ambition, hopes and plans without his impute.

Really the warp needs only him and the demons of the abyss would fall apart as they have no equivalent power.

Also there seems to be a misconception that the warp is not limitless. As far as anyone knows it is (it is another dimension that is not confined by our own universe)

[Innis Cabal]

That's also assuming that they HAVE epic wizards... Because last I checked, most of the arch devils didn't even HAVE wizard levels, let alone enough for epic casting.

And there are NO epic Devils in the Epic Handbook, meaning that by RAW the only Epic Devils that exist are the precious few Arch devils that bothered to be epic casters, and Slannesh, and Tzeentch can easily out class them Sorcery wise, as I believe each is a Alpha Plus level Psyker.

Fiendfolio has two in fact. One with vorpal stomach teeth.

[Volkov]

Fiendfolio has two in fact. One with vorpal stomach teeth.

Both were reduced to non epic levels in the fiendish codex upon reevaluating their CR's.

[Texas_Ben]

Plus, destroying planets with epic magic is easy. Think more of destroying galaxies(and even universes) as the true power of D&D magic. And creating them also.

Do it without cheese. Min-maxing and epic cheese and all that jazz are right out. This isn't "The warp vs random group of PCs", it's "the warp vs. the abyss". You wouldn't run a campaign where the PCs get stomped out immediately because "oops they just destroyed the galaxy you were in. Time to reroll characters"



Funny thing, that bloodthirster turned in Khorne because he was tricked. And D&D demons are quite adept at corrupting and spreading chaos. The more probable outcome is that all alliances are quickly forgoten when the sugestions and charms start flying around and it's a massive free for all. In wich case it's a victory for the Abyss.

Demons are adept at corrupting and spreading chaos? And just what do you think Daemons spend pretty much all their time doing? Daemons are definitely better on the whole corrupting folks thing.

[GolemsVoice]

First we'll have to decide which rulest to use. If we use "W40K rules", "magic" would cause a certain strain upon their users. We surely can give the demons some leeway there, because they already are pretty evil and corrupted, so they would need less restraints than mortals, but it would still be dangerous.
If we assume that warp-magic is D&D magic, than Tzeentch at least is an epic level caster in his own right. He IS the god of magic, among other things.

But we'd also ahve to consider that, yes, deamons can't exist indefinitely outside the warp, so this one could be tricky. The Abyss is a VAST place, and, as far as I know, it spawns demons out of it's own substance, without any help needed.

But the most important question, to me, is: What would the DEVILS do? For them, this must seem like heaven. Or, well, like a very good day in hell.

[Killer Angel]

The Daemon horde is attacking the abyss, so we must count also the Obyrith.
Pazuzu, Dagon, Obox-Ob, etc.


The Daemons are attacking every plane and every planet at once. And plus, the main focus in this are the Demons of the Abyss.

Wait... The abyss is their main effort, but they're attacking also The nine hells, the Gehenna, and the Upper Planes? All the Outer Planes?
They're screwed.

[Oslecamo]

Demons are adept at corrupting and spreading chaos? And just what do you think Daemons spend pretty much all their time doing? Daemons are definitely better on the whole corrupting folks thing.

That's the funny thing about 40K daemons, they really don't care that much about actual chaos!

Khorne actualy defends the concept of honorable combat without trickery.

Tzenceth is infamous for his carefull plans and organization. He was also once the strongest chaos god, but sacrificed a good chunk of his power so there could be balance, whitout wich the Warp would cease to exist. Think about it. The Warp needs balance between all 4 of it's gods to survive!

Nurgle is actualy anti-change! His followers are the ones who just want to be freed from death and pain, at all costs.

The alpha legion of chaos space marines put a very big enphasis in discipline.

So, really, only Slanesh actualy behaves like a chaos god.

They're pretty good at corruption I'll give you that however. But daemons can be turned against their own masters. And they don't have anti-mind control protections, while D&D demons have plenty of mind control tirckery.



First we'll have to decide which rulest to use. If we use "W40K rules", "magic" would cause a certain strain upon their users. We surely can give the demons some leeway there, because they already are pretty evil and corrupted, so they would need less restraints than mortals, but it would still be dangerous.

Why should they follow the same rules? As I pointed out, D&D demons are extensions of the Abyss itself, while Warp daemons are actualy manifestations of the feelings of mortals. D&D demons are much better connected to their source of power, and should be able to use it much better as a consequence.

There's a reason why most basic demon troops can use magic, while most daemons are reduced to waving pointy sticks around.



If we assume that warp-magic is D&D magic, than Tzeentch at least is an epic level caster in his own right. He IS the god of magic, among other things.

He's the god of WH40K magic. And since WH40K sorcerors need to walk around in armor to protect themselves and charge into battle with pointy sticks, that isn't saying much really. Heck, Khorne doesn't use WH40K sorcery at all, and he's doing pretty well!



But we'd also ahve to consider that, yes, deamons can't exist indefinitely outside the warp, so this one could be tricky. The Abyss is a VAST place, and, as far as I know, it spawns demons out of it's own substance, without any help needed.
It is the raw angry essence of creation. That's why it cannot be destroyed, just escaped.



But the most important question, to me, is: What would the DEVILS do? For them, this must seem like heaven. Or, well, like a very good day in hell.
Asmodeus takes the oportunity to acquire some valuable intel, but since the daemons will be assimilated/retreating in no time, he still can't unleash his master plan.

[The Glyphstone]

He's the god of WH40K magic. And since WH40K sorcerors need to walk around in armor to protect themselves and charge into battle with pointy sticks, that isn't saying much really. Heck, Khorne doesn't use WH40K sorcery at all, and he's doing pretty well!


Wait, you're using the fact that 40k sorcerers give a universal 'Screw You' to any notion of Arcane Spell Failure (while wearing full plate/mountain plate, for that matter) as a weakness?

[Dervag]

My money's on the Warp. Both sides have nigh-infinite or infinite numbers, but the daemons display greater powers at the high ends- things like turning whole planets into weird-zones where the laws of physics are considered a great joke to tell at parties.

[Oslecamo]

Wait, you're using the fact that 40k sorcerers give a universal 'Screw You' to any notion of Arcane Spell Failure (while wearing full plate/mountain plate, for that matter) as a weakness?

When the emperor of mankind, one of the greatest psykers ever, got stabbed into coma because he decided to charge into melee, yes, it is a big weakness.

Where was his contigency? His hold monster with insane DC to stop Horus? Or a mormekdain's disjuction to disarm/release him? Forcecage? Fly? Grease?

Also, the emperor still being in the golden throne means that nobody in the imperium can even use anything limited wish-level to replicate healing effects to patch up the emperor.

As a conclusion, if psyker powers are so good, why are psykers charging into melee and relying in armor again?

[Volkov]

Nurgle can simply infect demonkind with a disease that is very contagious, very lethal, and very infectious. Demons are not immune to disease and are thus susceptible to germ warfare, and remove disease is not a spell most demons, if any at all can cast. Demons are not wizards, at best they can only cast as level 10 sorcerers, and their spell like abilities aren't the type that are going to make much more than a dent in a daemonic horde.

Also, nurgle is the patron of destructive chabge, aka entropy, this is opposed to tzeentch's constructive, purposeful change. And you refer to the older versions of khorne, these days the martial valor aspect of him is buried under the "so much hate and blood-thirsty rage that even a demon barbarian would soil himself at the sight of him" aspect. Also, all the daemons have to do is slay the big three demon princes, and the resulting power struggle amongst demonkind would let the hordes of daemonkind pour through. Plus, belief and emotions in warhammer are very, very powerful forces. If enough people believe in something that can't happen, it will happen any way.

[The Glyphstone]

When the emperor of mankind, one of the greatest psykers ever, got stabbed into coma because he decided to charge into melee, yes, it is a big weakness.

Where was his contigency? His hold monster with insane DC to stop Horus? Or a mormekdain's disjuction to disarm/release him? Forcecage? Fly? Grease?

Also, the emperor still being in the golden throne means that nobody in the imperium can even use anything limited wish-level to replicate healing effects to patch up the emperor.

As a conclusion, if psyker powers are so good, why are psykers charging into melee and relying in armor again?

That's avoiding the point...you presented 'They wear armor' and 'they fight in melee' as weaknesses. Competent D&D gishes have to jump through numerous hoops to get solid non-magical armor bonuses without ASF. Also, gishes fight in melee, despite having all the power of full wizards. Not using their IWIN spells and instead buffing themselves into insanity and beating people's faces in doesn't make their IWIN spells any less potent. They fight in melee because they're stupid/it fits the setting ambience, no one argues this - go look up the Reasonable Marines as the best-known counter - not because their powers are weaksauce.

Contingencies? Maybe he ran out, spending them against all the death effects/whatever that he endured reaching Horus. It was a long battle, and considering the only 'extradimensional space' ever seen in 40K is the Warp (technically another plane), it'd be hard for him to recover his spells during the battle.

Hold Monster with insane DC? If he had one, he used it. Horus had Freedom of Movement, or he just plain saved....everything gets turned up to 11 in 40K by default, both save DCs and saving throws, causing a null result. Disjunction. Forcecage, grease, fly? Horus did have the full backing of all four Chaos Gods, he was probably packed to the gills with more epic wards and non-epic spells than the entirety of 3.5 has printed. The Emperor still killed him, though he took a fatal blow in doing so.

The healing thing is actually the easiest to explain - Horus's weapon unquestionably did Vile damage, and in a place as screwed up as 40K, can you really imagine someone inventing or researching Consecrate? Limited Wish and Wish can't duplicate a lower-level spell that doesn't exist, and without that, he's toast. Call it a campaign-specific houserule that there is no Consecrate, instead of assuming that 40k has no spellcasters above 4th level.

[crazedloon]

also about the argument of 40k = melee mages = dumb
for this argument we are talking about devils who all have natural attacks and all uses these natural attacks the majority of the time in close combat. Indeed one could argue that the two philosophies in dnd and 40k are very similar. Heck look at the best example of a non magic user supplement and you will notice that there is no archer build based abilities. So dnd (and thus the creatures and worlds) are run with the same misconception (that CC is the way to fight).

The other thing is we are talking about Daemons so mortal tactics have nothing to do with them.

blue/pink Horrors = low level mages who throw simple damage spells around
the Changeling: (and others like him) examples of the lower cast deamons having equivalent mind control magic.
Flamers = example of save or die spells (effects anything equally and kills outright in most cases)
pavane of slaanesh = another example of cumpulsion magic
fateweaver = example of high level preventative magic
boon of mutation = save or die

simple examples from the table top game which are examples of high level magic (and do remember the table top is powered down)

and now looking at a Dark heresy we can look at the deamons presented there and they all have the trait from beyond which make them immune to mind magic, a boon Demons do not share. So we are looking at very similar magic users with one side having a better immunity to it

[Volkov]

Now if Nurgle manages to get a super disease into the demonic hordes, he'll have an easy win. Not to mention, Nurgle has plague zombies.