Are the oots charictors beacoming better or worse

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Sometimes I'm nostalgic about when elan was just a bard and Haley had her hair, it seems the charictors are losing there flavor. However, some may argue that they are evolving and getting better. I do like the art updates but it seems that Roy, Durkon, Elan, Haley, Belkar, and v. are losing depth. tell me what you think:smallwink:

[RMS Oceanic]

They're not losing depth, they're gaining depth. At their core, they're still the six people who marveled (and grumbled) about being updated in Comic #1. They're just becoming more rounded as characters. If they behaved exactly the same way over the last 700 strips, it would have worn thin. All characters change over time.

[Gandariel]

they're becoming better.
at the first strips, when it was a joke-a-day comic, the characters didn't have any depth; now they have (excluding durkon -.-) and that's good...
it's like watching Road Runner and Will Coyote... they have no depth, they wear thin after a while (if you're not 7 ^^)

[DoctorIllithid]

Your spelling and grammar makes my eyes bleed.
But now that I've sucessfully translated your post, I can tell you, for a fact, that yes. Yes, the OOTS characters are getting better and better.

[Lvl45DM!]

They might be losing entertainment value, if you arent into depth

[Hann]

it's like watching Road Runner and Will Coyote... they have no depth, they wear thin after a while (if you have no soul)

Fixed it for you.

And yes, the characters are getting better. You could say that the depth builds...:cool:...character.

[Lvl45DM!]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahh !!!!

[Mystic Muse]

Your spelling and grammar makes my eyes bleed.


heyz! Thats no way 4 u to treat you fello playgrnder?:smalltongue::smallamused:

I am of the opinion they're getting better and becoming more well developed.

[TriForce]

if your saying that by making them more complicated they lose some of their origional no-nonsence humor, then i agree

however, you seem to be saying that by giving them actual reasoning and background they lose flavor and depth, and in that case i advise you to look at the dictionairy again, becouse reasoning and background is what MAKES flavor and depth ( in most cases )

[ThePhantasm]

The characters never emitted light in the first place. They were never serving as beacons.

[drengnikrafe]

Let us consider something carefully for a moment. If you consider the first comic as how the characters originally were, we have a bunch of characters who make observations about the enviroment, and how it changes. In strip 2, we learn Roy is willing to sacrifice a mechanical benefit for a roleplaying benefit. This is character growth. We now know something about Roy's personality. We have vague insight into his backstory.

Now fast forward 700 strips. Numerous more insights into character personalities, personal motivations, examples of behavior.... What's more, the characters actually stick to the personality they are given, even if it makes the joke marginally less funny or easy to write. They are filled to the brim with flavor, and they're likely to get even more.

[jtpete86]

they're becoming better.
at the first strips, when it was a joke-a-day comic, the characters didn't have any depth; now they have (excluding durkon -.-) and that's good...
it's like watching Road Runner and Will Coyote... they have no depth, they wear thin after a while (if you're not 7 ^^)

I agree with this statement about Durkon. I mostly play Clerics. While he does have his moments, I would have ditched him long ago and let the trees have him. Where is he going? And I pray ta Thor he gets thar quick.

[TheBlackShadow]

Overall, I don't think there is any legitimate argument that OotS or its characters (yes, that is how you spell it :smalltongue:) has got worse over time.

As my compatriots have indicated, the comic simply began with a set of characters defined only by little more than their appearances and classes who made jokes about such topics as the events of the campaign or DnD in general. Since then, they have quickly developed more and more fully-formed, interesting characters with different backstories, traits, personalities, goals, and motivations, all of which have been consistent over the course of seven hundred strips.

The comic itself has developed from a simple joke-a-day strip comic with a DnD campaign setting to something with a real storyline and interesting characters, where people argue incessantly over morals and philosophy on its forums (in addition to the nature of the MitD, Vaarsuvius' gender, and post crack pairings fanfic :smallamused:).

Nor can you argue that this increase in depth has significantly affected the quality of its humour. Granted, one might argue that humour is something of an aesthetic and thus might say that the comedy aspect of the comic has degraded, but, if you do follow this argument of humour being an aesthetic, then you must accept thiat this deterioration is solely based on your opinion, which is offset by the considerable growth in the comic's popularity.

I, for one, see no degradation in the comic. Maybe it has lost a certain innocence and simplicity that it had in its earlier days, but other than that OotS has done nothing but improved. It has a recognisable charm and personality with a background and calibre of storytelling that many other webcomics can only envy, all of which only compliment its humour and the amount to which so many people seem to enjoy it.

[Accepts a job offer for marketing and advertising the comic from the Giant]

[Scarlet Knight]

These characters are similar to many of our very own D&D characters.

At first level they are simple, fresh, blank character sheets ready for development : the dwarf, the fighter, the girl, the bard, the mage , the evil psychotic halfling.
As you play, they develop families, history, weaknesses , conflicts... all the things that make us love our characters. The things that make us tell stories of our characters to people who normally wouldn't care!

Now they have become : the loyal dwarf trying to get home, the noble fighter with family issues, the thief with a heart of gold, the bard who loves her, the power hungry elf, and the halfling trying to hide that's he's still evil and psychotic....

:smallsmile:

[autoglassmaster]

I agree that the characters are gaining depth, and that's good, but I can't help but admit that Elan has grown less funny ever since he became useful...

[Math_Mage]

I agree that the characters are gaining depth, and that's good, but I can't help but admit that Elan has grown less funny ever since he became useful...

But it wasn't until he became useful that he could demonstrate his grasp of basic sarcasm! :smallbiggrin:

[X2]

they're becoming better.
at the first strips, when it was a joke-a-day comic, the characters didn't have any depth; now they have (excluding durkon -.-) and that's good...
it's like watching Road Runner and Will Coyote... they have no depth, they wear thin after a while (if you're not 7 ^^)

Get. Out. :smallfurious:

[frogspawner]

I agree with this statement about Durkon. I mostly play Clerics. While he does have his moments, I would have ditched him long ago and let the trees have him. Where is he going? And I pray ta Thor he gets thar quick.
Not fair! We know where Durkon's going. He's going home - posthumously...
... and bringing death and destruction to all his folk when he does.

[LuisDantas]

Sometimes I'm nostalgic about when elan was just a bard and Haley had her hair, it seems the charictors are losing there flavor. However, some may argue that they are evolving and getting better. I do like the art updates but it seems that Roy, Durkon, Elan, Haley, Belkar, and v. are losing depth. tell me what you think:smallwink:

They have gained depth. Which arguably makes them harder to relate to and less funny.

[Snake-Aes]

How can they ever gain depth if they're stick figures!
On the other hand, that guy that got fired from CCPD kinda managed it.

[Optimystik]

They have gained depth. Which arguably makes them harder to relate to and less funny.

Speak for yourself - I found this Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) far more entertaining than any incarnation that has come before.

[NerfTW]

They have gained depth. Which arguably makes them harder to relate to and less funny.

And so we learn where the audience for cookie cutter sitcoms comes from.

[T-O-E]

And so we learn where the audience for cookie cutter sitcoms comes from.

Yeah, I was confused by that.

[veti]

[auto-censored]

Sorry about that. I get exasperated sometimes.

[autoglassmaster]

Speak for yourself - I found this Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0682.html) far more entertaining than any incarnation that has come before.

True, Belkar actually gets more hilarious as the comic goes.

[Inhuman Bot]

Personally? I think that they have more depth, but are less endearing then they used to be.

Specifically, I mean I feel like the whole cast has worn out their welcome, and don't really read the comic much anymore.

Still has one of my favorite forums, though.

[Zxo]

I like the growing depth of characters, it's what makes me care about them. The only issue I have with this is that since all the dark and deep stuff started, the stick figure format feels weird sometimes, too much contrast between the lighthearted art and the story.

(Of course it is way too late for any major art changes in the comic itself and I do not request that, but I would love to see Rich's drawings of OoTS characters in a more traditional, detailed, serious style, as extra content in books or as prints/posters. He said he can draw and showed it in the strip with Nale and Thog's portraits.)

[Kioran]

Most of the characters become somewhat better, but the strip as a whole becomes worse. Roy had some development, V had some....but overall, most of the screentime and development goes to the half of the party I never liked much anyway (Belkar, Haley and Elan).
The parties differences have worked themselves out for the most part (and against all common sense, they haven't killed Belkar yet), and I just don't feel any "pressure" or drama in the story anymore.

Plus Rich killed off the most consequent, dramatic and interesting character. Not that avoiding to kill Miko wouldn't have diminished her character.....but since then, I miss how there were characters willing to die rather than compromise. The current OotS cast is always so....practical.

[Azukar]

The characters never emitted light in the first place. They were never serving as beacons.

I believe the original poster referred to beacoming, not beaconing.

Evidently, the process of beacoming involves channelling the spirit of Gary Beacom, the Canadian figure-skater, or William Beacom (no relation), a duct tape master from Michigan, USA.

Both at the same time would be an awesome trick.

[hamishspence]

Plus Rich killed off the most consequent, dramatic and interesting character. Not that avoiding to kill Miko wouldn't have diminished her character.....but since then, I miss how there were characters willing to die rather than compromise. The current OotS cast is always so....practical.

Xykon offers Roy a compromise- to come back when he has a better chance of winning. Roy refuses. And dies.

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, I was confused by that.

For the most part, I am bugged that the party still keeps Belkar around. He's worn out his welcome at least since Graysky City.

Then there are the dangling character issues with V and Haley. Both have become somewhat of a cipher these days.

Simpler characters are easier to understand, that is all. I am surprised that so many of you are shocked by my stating of such a well-known fact.

[hamishspence]

Didn't he "earn his welcome back" by saving Haley in Greysky City?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html

From here onward, Belkar has tended to be a bit more helpful than he used to be. Even if he "helps" in the most irritating way possible, as with ending Durkon's fight with a tree.

[Kioran]

Xykon offers Roy a compromise- to come back when he has a better chance of winning. Roy refuses. And dies.

Arguably also because he was really, really angry. But yeah, it's one of the moments where Roy shows spine. Contrasted by his continued acceptance of Belkar's (and Haley's) delinquency. But I'll admit Roy, and even moreso Durkon, occasionally show spine and principles. Still, this comic very often feels like it lacks the "lawful".
Miko was the only "high profile" character who had spades of it (unlike N/L G roy, who is LG only by inertia, or Durkon, who is just not high profile). I miss this, much like I miss the sense of urgency in what the order are doing. Somehow, the long split party arc shattered said sense of urgency and purpose, it seems much more like the story overemphasizes the characters and their development/interpersonal stuff over the actual plotline.

The characters have gained depth. Arguably, especially Belkar and Elan have improved. It's just that I cannot care much anymore.

[Math_Mage]

Most of the characters become somewhat better, but the strip as a whole becomes worse. Roy had some development,

By 'some development', you of course mean that he was the *most* developed character through the first 500 strips of the story. And he's been, y'know, dead for most of the recent action, so what do you expect?


V had some....

You consider the entire "Darth V" arc and resulting character transformation to be "some" development? :smallconfused:


but overall, most of the screentime and development goes to the half of the party I never liked much anyway (Belkar, Haley and Elan).

[citation needed] w.r.t screentime.

Oddly enough, you avoided the one criticism that I would make, namely that we still haven't learned much of anything about Durkon (in the online strips, anyway--dunno about OtOoPCs).


The parties differences have worked themselves out for the most part

...Because we just finished about 200 strips dealing, in large part, with exactly that. Give the party some time together to let the interesting dynamics grow (I, for one, am wondering when Haley's family business will start seriously conflicting with her duty to the party, her denial notwithstanding).


(and against all common sense, they haven't killed Belkar yet),

Objections about Belkar's usefulness notwithstanding, I think the relevant point to be made is that were they that pragmatic in their decision-making, the Linear Guild would be dead by now.


and I just don't feel any "pressure" or drama in the story anymore.

Well, we just finished one of THE most dramatic arcs in the story, and now we're in transition. Give Team Evil a few strips to get moving, and I think we'll see the pressure ramp up again.


Plus Rich killed off the most consequent, dramatic and interesting character. Not that avoiding to kill Miko wouldn't have diminished her character.....

More to the point, what good would Miko have been in the arcs following her death? Rich took her off the table because her role in the story was finished. Would you rather she, perhaps, became a mostly-absent recurring villain like the Linear Guild? That would be entirely redundant.

On a side note, I fail to see anything about Miko's character that renders her especially compelling by comparison with the rest of the cast.


but since then, I miss how there were characters willing to die rather than compromise. The current OotS cast is always so....practical.

As previously noted, it is precisely because they are NOT practical that Belkar is still alive. Consider also Roy's refusal to compromise with Xykon, Celia's refusal to compromise her principles in Greysky City, Elan's refusal to kill Kubota, V's refusal to pragmatically admit his/her limits in scrying for Haley's group (and subsequent refusal to take the pragmatic route to save his/her family), and so on. The Order of the Stick may not be as hardline 'idealistic' as Miko, and most of them use their heads a bit more than they used to, but that's like saying Redcloak isn't as evil as Xykon.

[LuisDantas]

Didn't he "earn his welcome back" by saving Haley in Greysky City?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html

We have been through this a few times already, but no, not by a long shot.


From here onward, Belkar has tended to be a bit more helpful than he used to be. Even if he "helps" in the most irritating way possible, as with ending Durkon's fight with a tree.

There is that. But also, he had a certain naive charm before, dangerous as he was. Now he is far more of a hipocrite (sp?).

[hamishspence]

Going by this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html

Roy has decided to keep going with keeping Belkar pointed at the bad guys.

Combined with his being Employee of The Month, it seems he's back to being considered an asset, instead of a liability, as Haley considered him once he triggered the MoJ.

[Snake-Aes]

Consider that Belkar isn't "welcome" in the party as much as "we might as well point him towards something that we want screaming as we muzzle him". Roy voiced exactly that concept to the deva, you know?

I'm not sure i understand the complains that the characters are getting "deeper". When a story develops, it's characters follow along. You can't have a long and well-thought story go through with the characters being exactly the same over it's course.

[Math_Mage]

We have been through this a few times already, but no, not by a long shot.

His 'earning' his welcome or not aside, I think Roy already adequately outlined (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html) the LG justification for keeping Belkar around.


There is that. But also, he had a certain naive charm before, dangerous as he was. Now he is far more of a hipocrite (sp?).

I don't see the hypocrisy. Belkar has realized that the best way to get what you want is to occasionally look like you're helping other people get what they want. Sometimes you might even help.

[Morthis]

Arguably also because he was really, really angry. But yeah, it's one of the moments where Roy shows spine. Contrasted by his continued acceptance of Belkar's (and Haley's) delinquency. But I'll admit Roy, and even moreso Durkon, occasionally show spine and principles. Still, this comic very often feels like it lacks the "lawful".
Miko was the only "high profile" character who had spades of it (unlike N/L G roy, who is LG only by inertia, or Durkon, who is just not high profile). I miss this, much like I miss the sense of urgency in what the order are doing. Somehow, the long split party arc shattered said sense of urgency and purpose, it seems much more like the story overemphasizes the characters and their development/interpersonal stuff over the actual plotline.

The characters have gained depth. Arguably, especially Belkar and Elan have improved. It's just that I cannot care much anymore.

I'm not seeing how Miko was the important element of lawful needed. Miko was a complete mockery of the lawful good alignment and paladins in general. Completely overzealous to the point she managed to make herself fall, and then still not accept her responsibility. I think Durkon is the strongest example of lawful good, but he gets very little character development.

[Ancalagon]

Miko was the only "high profile" character who had spades of it (unlike N/L G roy, who is LG only by inertia, or Durkon, who is just not high profile).

Miko was all about Lawful and not much about Good. Rich even stated he made her in a way how a paladin is a) sadly often played and perceived and b) how a paladin should NOT be.

[Optimystik]

I think Durkon is the strongest example of lawful good, but he gets very little character development.

Even Durkon has his "gray" moments, such as when he purposefully decided not to protect Belkar from the sun. He's still better at being LG than Roy, though.

[Math_Mage]

Even Durkon has his "gray" moments, such as when he purposefully decided not to protect Belkar from the sun. He's still better at being LG than Roy, though.

See also: "I've been reading the description of Control Weather..."

:smallbiggrin:

[Ancalagon]

Even Durkon has his "gray" moments, such as when he purposefully decided not to protect Belkar from the sun. He's still better at being LG than Roy, though.

Challenge: Find more than half a dozen of those grey moments. ;)

[Capt Spanner]

I first started reading an enjoying OOTS as a good (but not brilliant) gag-a-day style webcomic, and enjoyed it. In the No Cure For Paladin Blues arc, I got hooked into the story and have been really enjoying the dramatic, masterfully told storylines these days.

If you like the gag-a-day style, tough. It's not the main focus of the comic (IMO) - go read Irregular Webcomic or xkcd. If you appreciate the epic story, then the characters need development, even if that makes them less funny - otherwise they get stale (and become even less funny in the long run), we cease to care about them and it dies.

Almost all the characters have undergone important development for the story:

Roy - Has had his motive for the quest (his father's blood oath) shattered, but has decided he needs to do this anyway.

Haley - Is becoming more open, less secretive. The more we find out about her past, the more we care for her and want her to have a happy ending.

V - Her* hubris (arrogance) has always been a cause of dramatic tension in the party (particularly with Belkar). While not entirely unjustified, V has had to face up to the fact that arcane power on its own may not be enough and that she will have to learn to use her other traits and skills, and use her intelligence in other ways in order to achieve true power. At the same time, she had discovered the alienating effect power can have on those close to her, and is having to adjust her priorities between her own ambition and those she cares about. V is - for me - the most interesting character in the comic at the minute. I predict this next arc will give us a lot of insight into V' motivations and her underlying character, if not her gender.

Elan - Is still the buttmonkey. Out of all of OOTS he's still the least effective in combat, he's just not totally useless anymore (and thus gives the party a good reason to keep him around). His childishness is still are there and still brilliantly funny. Elan will be the one to keep the party going through their darkest days, mark my words.

Belkar - Gets funnier and funnier as he realises that there are more imaginative ways of getting one over on people then simply killing them. Also causes conflict as the party have to decide whether he's worth the effort of dragging around just to keep him out of trouble. (Having said this, it wouldn't surprise me to see him turn on the party at the last minute - or at least pretend to. Belkar gets very little out of Xykon winning, and is probably too chaotic to work for Xykon. Whether he'll figure this out or not is another thing).

Durkon - Err...guilty as charged, probably. I think he's shown the least growth over the course of the comic. Of course, being the most mature character at the start, and being a member of an ensemble means he can get away with this, but even so.

Xykon - Has been developed from "does evil things to personal gain" stereotype to someone who might commit genocide because they're bored. He's a genuinely terrifying character rather then just a cut/paste evil dude now.


Miko gives us a good example of a good full character arc.
She came onto the scene, wracked with arrogance, filled with hubris. I personally found her to be an excellently written character I loved to hate. We saw her (somewhat justified) suspicion grow to full blown delusions of grandeur until she brought about her downfall, along with the downfall of her beloved city. Only in death did she finally realise her mistakes. It was a fantasticly executed tragic downfall. She was the cause of much humour, and still had one of the most serious storylines of any individual character, and there was no conflict between the two.

If you're nostalgic for the old characters, just read the first 100 strips over and over...


*I've initially took V to be female, and the feminine pronoun stuck.

[Nilan8888]

The thing is, what's considered the starting point of the characters becoming better or worse?

Are we comparing to the early days of strips 1-#100 or the end of Durokan's dungeon? NOT ON YOUR LIFE. No bloody way. There's been so much highs and lows since then I don't think it's in any way a contest.

Are we taking this from the starting point of when the new book began? I think it can be argued that since the move of scene to find Girard's gate the OOTS... although not Team Evil as has been evidenced... hasn't had as much going on recently. But that's not saying the characters have become worse, just that recent events since around stip 670 or so haven't changed them. Since the start of the new book only V, Belkar and Roy have had any effects in one way or another on thier characters, and V's was the only particularly dramatic one (meanwhile Belkar has had a few comments on his already existing character trajectory ('If everyone agrees, it's ok for me to kill you!') and Roy's been the only one with any particular emotional reaction to the events of thier mission.

People have mentioned that Durkon's character is a little thin. In a wierd way though this makes sense since in fact he was the first one to HAVE any depth once upon a time, in his liason with Hilga and was the focus of 'The Saddest Comic Ever'. At that time he was the most dramatic member of OOTS considering we knew next to nothing about the others (Elan had a twin brother... compared to what happens later to Elan with Therakla, these character events are quite thin).

I can see people having nostalgia for these people before they had begin certain character arcs and the drama and the hilarity that ensued because of the very flaws thier parts of the story have resolved. But that doesn't mean we should wish for those days back again. Onward, forever onward.

[Cizak]

If anything, the characters are gaining depth as the story pgrogresses. In the first comic, all we saw about Roy was a stick figure with dark skin. Now, we know what he's like. What he likes, what he dislikes, how he feels about the other stick figures in the that first comic. The story has showed us his personality, and that gives him more depth, at least for me.

[Deca]

Arguably also because he was really, really angry. But yeah, it's one of the moments where Roy shows spine. Contrasted by his continued acceptance of Belkar's (and Haley's) delinquency. But I'll admit Roy, and even moreso Durkon, occasionally show spine and principles. Still, this comic very often feels like it lacks the "lawful".
Miko was the only "high profile" character who had spades of it (unlike N/L G roy, who is LG only by inertia, or Durkon, who is just not high profile). I miss this, much like I miss the sense of urgency in what the order are doing. Somehow, the long split party arc shattered said sense of urgency and purpose, it seems much more like the story overemphasizes the characters and their development/interpersonal stuff over the actual plotline.

The characters have gained depth. Arguably, especially Belkar and Elan have improved. It's just that I cannot care much anymore.

Yeah, Miko turned out REAL Lawful. In fact, she was so lawful that she decided to disregard the legal court procedures and instead kill her legally appointed ruler.
Can't you just feel the Lawful vibes coming from that?

[factotum]

Using Miko as an example of anything is a bad move, because she was arguably insane. She was extremely Lawful, but the code she followed was pretty much made up by herself--she was the Chosen of the Twelve Gods, and therefore whatever she decided upon was the true Law, regardless of the law of the land. Even without that, once she'd decided the law of the land had been corrupted by Shojo she was under no obligation to follow it--as is often repeated in these discussions, "Lawful" in D&D does NOT mean "follows the law of the land"!

[Vaarsuvius4181]

they're becoming better.

it's like watching Road Runner and Will Coyote... they have no depth, they wear thin after a while (if you're not 7 ^^)

What is wrong with you?

Lol haha i STILL watch that show.

[Garwain]

My main concerns is that the OotS is featured less and less as the story unfolds. I am interested and amused by the other important characters, but only serving the OotS in their quest. Returning to the original one dimensional dungeon crawling we started from is maybe a step to far, but I'd like to see some dramatic turning where the story gets rid of some factions so that the important questions can be answered.

I mean... at this rate, the Snarl will die of old age or commit suicide because of boredom before they ever get to the last gate.

And even then... We know there are powers that want to keep the whole fight balanced, so neither Xykon or OotS will ever prevail. Quite a demoralising thought imo...

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, Miko turned out REAL Lawful. In fact, she was so lawful that she decided to disregard the legal court procedures and instead kill her legally appointed ruler.
Can't you just feel the Lawful vibes coming from that?

Miko belived that she WAS the law (as given by the gods) and therefor above mortal laws. Also her inflexability in all things was very "lawfull".

[Deca]

Miko belived that she WAS the law (as given by the gods) and therefor above mortal laws. Also her inflexability in all things was very "lawfull".

People can be inflexible without being lawful.

I would put her down to becoming more Chaotic near the end. By that point, she claimed to still follow the will of the gods but it was amazing how the will of the gods always seemed to coincide with what she wanted. She had laws but she didn't seem above changing aforesaid laws when it suited her by the end.

[HandofShadows]

Elan - Is still the buttmonkey. Out of all of OOTS he's still the least effective in combat, he's just not totally useless anymore (and thus gives the party a good reason to keep him around). His childishness is still are there and still brilliantly funny. Elan will be the one to keep the party going through their darkest days, mark my words.


I agree. Elan is a very important member of the Order. IIRC one of the other members said he was the heart of the Order. While not the best in combat he can hold his own now and he often comes up with interesting ideas, insights and suggestions that have been very helpful. Even if they are a half bubble off plum.

[DarkEternal]

They're getting deeper. Still, the criticism stands on Durkon getting too little development compared to other main characters, hell, even compared to some NPC-s which is a shame, since he is a part of the main group, meaning a main character like everyone else. I am sure Rich will get around to it sooner or later, thogh.

[licoot]

I don't know why people are complaining about the gaining of character depth, because despite the fact that they do get less funny, it barely happens. Most the characters have stayed just as funny, and Belkar has got funnier

[Cleverdan22]

Of course the characters are getting better. But most people have already covered how they have developed and how they've improved.

So I'll touch on a few character things. As to why they keep Belkar around, he is getting much better, even if he is playing the system a little. Even before his "Shojo dream epiphany," he was stabilizing to be a better party member due to Roy's influence.

And I tend to think that Elan is even funnier now rather than less funny since his Dashing Swordsman upgrade. Some of his best moments have been in more recent comics, such as the Orc Island incident and his speech before the battle of Azure City. And haggling.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I think Elan has become less stupid and therefor less funny since the dashing swordsman upgrade. :smallfrown:

Also I know Haley couldn't have kept her crush secret forever but now so much good humor is gone.

[russdm]

I think the charactors are changing for the better though there is one or two i would say no to. Also some of the characters have done more intelligent (in my opinion) things.

Here some highlights, i think showing their growth, or moments that they would have not likely have done before.

Roy: Choosing to take down Xykon because its the right thing to do versus doing it to shove it in his dad's face. He was doing it mainly to shut up his dad who constantly put him down about becoming a fighter instead of a wizard.

Haley: Killing Crystal. Finally somebody has eliminated an annoying participant. Now I am just waiting for them to put down Nale and Co. permnantly for the count.

Elan: Making him a dashing swordsman gave him the ability to have more jokes and be more then some annoying stupidish bard. He also become more useful in the party while retaining his lovable qualities, which were annoying but lovable.

Durkon: Got nothing here. He does not seem to change in anyway.

V: She (I believe V to be female because thats how I feel) choose to accept a deal from the three fiends, which is something not many would do. Also she killed Kubota, another plus to me atleast.

Belkar: His change in actions and outlook/attitude is far more entertaining then before. Now he makes me laugh more.

Mitd: He started out as very non-appearing and now I love him. He is such a neat creature. I can't wait for more mitd stuff, or for his reveal. Alot more interesting.

Redcloak: Has been made more worrisome in my view. Has made me more wondering about how far he is willing to go to complete the plan. More interesting of a villain.

Xykon: An utterly dumb character to me at this point. He has not changed at all and has continued to act the same from Start of Darkness. He is essentially a very powerful bored thug who enjoys breaking things/people/skulls. I no longer find his story interesting. He is just a two-dimensional villain now. I can always expect him to kill someone, do nasty things because of boredom, or that he would be mean/nasty to redcloak. Xykon has lost appeal now to me. I don't understand anymore whats so worrying about him or why i should be concerned anymore.

Something I am unhappy about is that Nale and his bunch survived. The intelligent and pragmatic thing would to get rid of them. They are going to come back and cause more trouble so I hope the OOTS does the smart thing and kill them. I liked how V took out Kubota, he was a two-bit guy that would have caused extra trouble and it worked better getting rid of him.

I am thrilled with the growth made by the OOTSers, Redcloak, the Mitd, but not Xykon, who i frankly don't like. He is not an interesting villain anymore!

[Nimrod's Son]

Durkon: Got nothing here. He does not seem to change in anyway.
Well, how do you improve on perfection? :smallwink:

I don't doubt for a second that Durkon is going to get a LOT more focus in the latter stages of the story. Whether he'll change much is another matter. But I really don't think he needs to... he's already got his whole thang going.

[LuisDantas]

Using Miko as an example of anything is a bad move, because she was arguably insane.

Demonstrably insane. It is arguable when she began to suffer from that insanity, but it was no later than at the time she decided to escape her cell.


She was extremely Lawful,

Arguable at best. She was certainly not at all lawful by the time she went into full-blown delusional madness.

Heck, she was not lawful at all at least since she decided to kill Shojo. And I think a good case can be made that she was never more than nominally Lawful at all.

Miko is True Neutral Self-Serving at heart - to the point of deluding herself into being some sort of Prime Paladin out of utter pride.



but the code she followed was pretty much made up by herself--she was the Chosen of the Twelve Gods, and therefore whatever she decided upon was the true Law, regardless of the law of the land.

There, that is what I just said :)

[Ancalagon]

I am thrilled with the growth made by the OOTSers, Redcloak, the Mitd, but not Xykon, who i frankly don't like. He is not an interesting villain anymore!

He never was any different at all. Never. Read the comment in SoD to find out what he basically is (and never was and never will be more).