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Zephykinns
2010-02-14, 05:50 PM
This is basically the Thread everyone can come to glom over any fun prestige classes that aren't munchkin magnets.

I personally found my favorite prestige class to take as a character that heals/inspires people. It is called the Heart warder. They don't get much battle wise, but they would be GREAT to roleplay as. I wanna give it a shot if I can ever get ahold of a higher level campaign, or a dedicated group that wants to make a good story.

Saph
2010-02-14, 06:07 PM
Loremaster is one of my favourites. It does what a PrC should do; makes you better at the thing it's supposed to specialise in and gives you extra abilities that are fun and useful without being broken.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-14, 06:09 PM
The Fleshwarper will still always hold a special place in my [Silthilar Graft] heart.

Kylarra
2010-02-14, 06:10 PM
Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327).

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 06:10 PM
Radiant Servant of Pelor is relatively balanced. It makes you a better healer/turner.

Longcat
2010-02-14, 06:12 PM
If it weren't for the "non-game-breaking"-part, I'd say Planar Shepherd. From the flavor point-of-view, Druids turning into Outsiders is just awesome. Balance-wise, not so much.

Otherwise, my vote goes to Ruby-Knight Vindicator. You get to be a clerical martial-artist assassin with the flavor of a Warhammer 40k Inquisitor.

Zephykinns
2010-02-14, 06:13 PM
I know ALOT of people that hate prestige classes because they say it "overpowers" them. It does not do that. It just specializes them. And peopel tend to be better at something they can do. It isn't like they all of a sudden became good at EVERYTHING.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-14, 06:15 PM
I'm a fan of Effigy Master, Alchemist Savant and Spell Sovereign (Dragon Magazine #357)

And the Techsmith too. I'm generally a big fan of constructs.

Boci
2010-02-14, 06:15 PM
What about an incantrix who took a vow to never target an unwilling creature with their magic, or use it to force others to serve her? (I.E. never summons, just buffs party members and uses the ocasional divination spell to help learn stuff)

Swok
2010-02-14, 06:22 PM
Totem Rager. Mostly because of the whole "angry beast" vibe it has.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-14, 06:43 PM
I know ALOT of people that hate prestige classes because they say it "overpowers" them. It does not do that. It just specializes them. And peopel tend to be better at something they can do. It isn't like they all of a sudden became good at EVERYTHING.

Except of course the prestige classes that are actually overpowered.

Planar Shepherd, for example, which makes you even better at everything than a normal Druid.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-14, 06:51 PM
What about an incantrix who took a vow to never target an unwilling creature with their magic, or use it to force others to serve her? (I.E. never summons, just buffs party members and uses the ocasional divination spell to help learn stuff)

Still broken. Free metamagic on any spell cast means auto-Persist buffs.


Sapphire Hierarch for me.

Raiki
2010-02-14, 06:51 PM
I have to go with War Weaver. It's good, but it doesn't break the game. It takes the wizard, and nudges it gently in the direction of Not Being A Jerk™. On top of that, it gets points for style.

Now, people using legacy champion or uncanny trickster to overpower it. That is worth a Backhanded Troutslap (also ™).

~R~

Drascin
2010-02-14, 06:54 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is extremely cool, and while powerful, I wouldn't call it gamebreakingly overpowered - or at least not as much as a singleclassed Wizard.

Also, I love the Pyrokineticist. Yes, it kinda sucks, but I have made it a point in many of my melee builds to splash a level of it just because creating a fire whip with my mind is always cool.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-14, 06:55 PM
Jade Phoenix Mage is extremely cool, and while powerful, I wouldn't call it gamebreakingly overpowered - or at least not as much as a singleclassed Wizard.

JPM is a +1 PrC, so no, it isn't that powerful. It's the people who say the Bo9S is broken that claim it is OP'ed.

Boci
2010-02-14, 06:56 PM
Still broken. Free metamagic on any spell cast means auto-Persist buffs.

It overpowered but is it broken? No one is going to feel useless because your character is taking down challanges without breaking a sweat, and the DM doesn't have to spend ages making encounters that will be challanging for you without slaughtering the other players.

Felyndiira
2010-02-14, 06:59 PM
Back when I played Drizzt-clone Eilistraee clerics, one of my favorites was the sword dancer. It's a class balanced towards martial abilities, has nice flavor, and isn't excessively unbalanced (it makes the cleric stronger, but all cleric PrCs make them stronger). The PrC also ended up inspiring one of my favorite characters - an Eilistraee cleric who was a generally curious person didn't give a crap about drow-surface relations or traditions, and simply gained the goddess's favor by doing things she thought were fun that accidentally advanced said objectives.

Right now, my favorite is probably the divine oracle. It fits my illogical like of clerics and offers a really nice flavor along with a few fun abilities. It's especially fun to, instead of playing the Cassandra effect, to cryptically remark at the consequences of other PCs' habits and leave them flabbergasted.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-14, 07:00 PM
It overpowered but is it broken? No one is going to feel useless because your character is taking down challanges without breaking a sweat, and the DM doesn't have to spend ages making encounters that will be challanging for you without slaughtering the other players.

Every encounter in the campaign becomes "Dispel Magic, did it work?", "No", and "Oh, well crap. Here's your XP".


Incanatrix, even when holding back, can ruin the challenge of encounters by sheer nature of it's abilities. The same goes for Planar Shepherd (which can be used to simply Drown anyone within a set radius, as the weakest ability they have), Tainted Scholar (which really screws with MAD, even when played as intended), and Dweomerkeeper (SU Spell is just that damn good because it renders the spell immune to Dispel Magic).

Boci
2010-02-14, 07:02 PM
Every encounter in the campaign becomes "Dispel Magic, did it work?", "No", and "Oh, well crap. Here's your XP".

Because every party member is hasted they suddenly auto win challanges? I know there are some broken buffs like ironguard. They don't have to be used.

deuxhero
2010-02-14, 07:05 PM
Loremaster is one of my favourites. It does what a PrC should do; makes you better at the thing it's supposed to specialise in and gives you extra abilities that are fun and useful without being broken.

This. Swiftblade is also cool for the balance between abilites and no-casting levels that make you actually want to take the class.

taltamir
2010-02-14, 07:06 PM
I know ALOT of people that hate prestige classes because they say it "overpowers" them. It does not do that. It just specializes them. And peopel tend to be better at something they can do. It isn't like they all of a sudden became good at EVERYTHING.

that entirely depends on the class in question. Some ARE overpowering.
take incantantrix for example. its supposedly "abjuration specialized", but its power (and overpower) comes from free metamagic reducers.

Pyro_Azer
2010-02-14, 07:10 PM
Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-14, 07:12 PM
Because every party member is hasted they suddenly auto win challanges? I know there are some broken buffs like ironguard. They don't have to be used.

Haste can't be Persisted. Variable range. However, the buffs you can persist all stack, so they eventually add up too much and overwhelm any opponent incapable of dispelling them.

I'm not talking broken buffs, I'm talking stacking buffs. On their own, they aren't that powerful. But when you apply 3 or 4 or 5 of them to everyone in the party (fairly easy when coupled with War Weaver) they get out of hand and make life difficult for the DM. A fully buffed party (via normal Wizard buffs) is usually capable of handling 4-6 encounters per day, all of which are 2-3 levels above their ECL (if everyone is at the same level of optimization).

With an Incanatrix in the party, suddenly every caster's buff spells are auto-Persisted. If you assume a standard Cleric/Wizard/Skill Monkey/Beat Stick party, that's twice the number of buffs that are lasting longer than they should. Between a 20th level party of 4, there's approixmately 40 spells from the Wizard and 50 spells from the Cleric (not counting bonus spells, but counting Domains). If even a tenth of those are just buff spells the Incanatrix can target with Persist, that's 9 spells the enemy has to deal with on a single character (likely the Beat Stick). Whoever gets targeted that day ends up being the most powerful weapon the party has until hit with an AMF or Dispel or MDJ.

When the DM has to resort to flinging a Dispel Magic every encounter, it means something has rendered encounters trivial. It's actually safer to just use a Standard GOD or Batman build than to allow Incanatrix.

Greymane
2010-02-14, 07:15 PM
Until recently, my favorite was Archmage. Mastery of magic was pretty cool in my opinion.

Then I found the Fiendbinder in Tome of Magic.

You lose a few caster levels, but you get a harem of succubi in return, so it's all good. :smallcool:

Boci
2010-02-14, 07:18 PM
Haste can't be Persisted. Variable range. However, the buffs you can persist all stack, so they eventually add up too much and overwhelm any opponent incapable of dispelling them.

I'm not talking broken buffs, I'm talking stacking buffs. On their own, they aren't that powerful. But when you apply 3 or 4 or 5 of them to everyone in the party (fairly easy when coupled with War Weaver) they get out of hand and make life difficult for the DM. A fully buffed party (via normal Wizard buffs) is usually capable of handling 4-6 encounters per day, all of which are 2-3 levels above their ECL (if everyone is at the same level of optimization).

With an Incanatrix in the party, suddenly every caster's buff spells are auto-Persisted. If you assume a standard Cleric/Wizard/Skill Monkey/Beat Stick party, that's twice the number of buffs that are lasting longer than they should. Between a 20th level party of 4, there's approixmately 40 spells from the Wizard and 50 spells from the Cleric (not counting bonus spells, but counting Domains). If even a tenth of those are just buff spells the Incanatrix can target with Persist, that's 9 spells the enemy has to deal with on a single character (likely the Beat Stick). Whoever gets targeted that day ends up being the most powerful weapon the party has until hit with an AMF or Dispel or MDJ.

When the DM has to resort to flinging a Dispel Magic every encounter, it means something has rendered encounters trivial. It's actually safer to just use a Standard GOD or Batman build than to allow Incanatrix.

That is scary. I don't hace access to the 3.5 Incantrix. Could it work with the 3.0 one?

faceroll
2010-02-14, 07:18 PM
I really like the idea of the spellsword. If spells didn't get me so excited, I'd take more than one level in it.

Two prestige classes I'm a big fan of is the (Illithid) Slayer and the Mage of the Arcane Order. Walker in the Waste is really cool, too.

Edit
@ Sinfire Titan
Do you allow Incantatrixes to circumvent the limitations of persistent spell?

Amphetryon
2010-02-14, 07:19 PM
A vote for Elocator. Flank from funny angles, mobility improvements and some additional Psionic abilities without being a full advancing class.

Hyooz
2010-02-14, 07:21 PM
I like Walker in the Wastes, it combines two of my favorite themes: necromancy and deserts.

Crow
2010-02-14, 07:34 PM
I have always liked the thaumaturgist.

deuxhero
2010-02-14, 07:39 PM
Haste can't be Persisted. Variable range. However, the buffs you can persist all stack, so they eventually add up too much and overwhelm any opponent incapable of dispelling them.


Isn't ''swift'' haste 1:lower level (somewhat quicker) 2:self only (non-variable)

Gnaeus
2010-02-14, 07:42 PM
My vote is for chameleon. Floating feats and huge spell lists are fun.

Lapak
2010-02-14, 07:43 PM
I like the Jade Phoenix Mage and the Ironsoul Forgemaster. Both are very solid PRCs, both make you give up something to get something to keep them from going overboard, and both have really good flavor elements.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-14, 07:46 PM
Master of the nine

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-14, 07:48 PM
Dervish is great. My only gripe is that the ability has a daily limit.

Geometer is all kinds of cool, as is Fatespinner.

I actually like True Necromancer, despise what everyone else ever might think about it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 07:51 PM
I'll add the Avenger because they aren't restricted to evil like the assasin.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-14, 07:54 PM
I was never very fond of the Fatespinner. Mostly because I found it while I was looking for a character concept around controlling chaos, and it sounded perfect based on the name, but the actual abilities had very little to do with I was hoping for.

Pluto
2010-02-14, 07:54 PM
I have a thing for Bards. Stormsingers, Dirgesingers, Seekers of the Song, Warchanters, I love them all. They aren't the sorts of classes that get much love compared to copypasta Lyric Thaumaturgists and Sublime Chords, but I get a huge kick out of them.

Master of Many Forms is just cool, gamebreaking ridiculousness be damned.

Bladesinger sounded so neat to me (this may be the Bardophilia speaking) until I tried to play one. Then I suffered through 8 levels of being eaten by otyughs, drowning, being eaten by owlbears, being eaten by goblins and being eaten by demon rat swarms before I ran out of funds for diamond dust.

Rogue classes do it for me too. Bloodhound has so many neat things going on that I decided to play one about a year ago. I found that it excels in the 'being on the hunt' aspect of its job far more than the 'actually catching anybody' part. But that's okay. It was fun.

Scarlet Corsair is my absolute favorite PrC because it so well supports everything I want to see when swashing buckles. I know a Swordsage or Warblade could beat things up harder, but they just aren't as interesting.

And the Malconvoker and Fiendbinder have crazy style points. I feel like I really should get around to playing one or the other.

[edit]
Oh! Oh!
+1 to Silver Key! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2)
Seriously.
Sneaky Dwarves that can just walk into any place the like.

Draz74
2010-02-14, 07:57 PM
I add votes to Elocator, Bladesinger (which doesn't incredibly suck anymore if you put it in some very specific builds), and Master of Nine. Great choices.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-14, 07:59 PM
Scarlet Corsair is my absolute favorite PrC because it so well supports everything I want to see when swashing buckles. I know a Swordsage or Warblade could beat things up harder, but they just aren't as interesting.


Does it cook bacon? Because that is where other term (buccaneer) first came from.

SaintRidley
2010-02-14, 08:00 PM
I very much enjoy Recaster and Geometer. Two of my favourite Wizard prestige classes.

Mage of the Arcane Order is fun too.

Splendor
2010-02-14, 08:12 PM
Thunder Guide, Windwright Captain, Dark Lantern, Bone knight

Master_Rahl22
2010-02-14, 09:38 PM
+1 to Malconvoker, Master of Nine, and Dervish. Fun, flavorful, and help make you better in the specific area they deal with. I'm also a really big fan of Shadowsun Ninja. The flavor is awesome, and it gives almost all of the good stuff from Monk (only thing missing is bonus feats) without taking Monk levels and even without having to convince a DM to allow Unarmed Swordsage.

MlleRouge
2010-02-14, 09:51 PM
My favorite PrC that I ever played with an Ordained Champion with some (two, as I recall) levels of Contemplative. It gave my cute little clericzilla-of-Hextor some fun options while giving me something to do with all those turn attempts rather than just sticking on another buff. That can get old after a while.


Contemplative was a ton of fun to role play, too.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-02-14, 09:53 PM
Pretty fond of the Master Specialist (CM) as far as adding flavour to your mage, and doing exactly the thing it's designed to do: further specialize your wizard.

Glad to add a +1 to Malconvoker and Shadowsun Ninja- heck, both just scream 'Use me as a plot hook!" Same thing with the Shadowbane Inquisitor. Seriously, if the class itself inspires a plotline, it's a good class. A Paladin-based class that can corrupt itself with its own conviction? That's a story.

JaronK
2010-02-14, 10:05 PM
I'm a big fan of the Earthdreamer PrC... the abilities are just really cool. Chameleons are awesome too. I also like Anima Mages, but those are probably too powerful for this thread.

JaronK

Commander_Vimes
2010-02-14, 10:16 PM
Master Thrower is cool and gives a character some flavorful and quite effective abilities in its narrow area of specialization, while not overpowering the character.

My favorite has to be Ashworm Dragoon though. A move speed of 30ft underground is awesome. The imagery of bursting up out of the ground and lancing someone while the worm drags them down below is awesome. Also a trample attack that takes a standard action to stand up from, because the worm squished you into the ground that hard.

Gorbash
2010-02-14, 10:17 PM
I'm a big fan of the Earthdreamer PrC... the abilities are just really cool.

I'm playing one. :smallbiggrin: And it is indeed a nice prestige class. Not to mention really useful in dungeons!

FishAreWet
2010-02-14, 10:23 PM
+1 Earth Dreamer and Sapphire Hierarch.

I love the fluff behind Necrocarnates and Radiant Servants.

sonofzeal
2010-02-14, 10:27 PM
Death Delver. First nine times you die, you don't.

Gametime
2010-02-14, 11:05 PM
I'll add a vote for Chameleon. I've always wanted to make a Changeling Chameleon who associated a shift in abilities with transforming, complete with shifts in personality and a variety of miniatures associated with each combination.

erikun
2010-02-14, 11:17 PM
I always liked the Master Alchemist, at least the 3.0 version. (I never saw the 3.5 version to compare.) Yes, making potions is inefficient and not the best way to spend funds, but the idea of Potions of Dominate Monster, Potions of Resurrection, or slinging around a Potion of Meteor Swarm - depending on your class - is quite interesting.

I will second the Pyromancer/Cryomancer and related classes. Not powerful, but when your job is "set everything on fire", there is a lot of fun to be had.

Also a fan of the Deepwarden, because I like my rogues healthy, armored, and backstabbing people in the face with a large axe.

Optimystik
2010-02-14, 11:53 PM
Radiant Servant of Pelor is relatively balanced. It makes you a better healer/turner.

RSoP is not balanced. It's like Planar Shepherd - gives you the full power of the base class and more, with no drawback. It even refunds the domain slot that you use on Sun to enter it.

Divine Oracle is my favorite.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-15, 12:14 AM
Assassin and ninja spy will always have a place in my heart, also Scorpion Heritor from sandstorms looks sweet, I am actually playing a character that is going to enter that class next level.

Kira_the_5th
2010-02-15, 12:28 AM
Personally, I'm having a blast with Evangelist. Espionage is far more fun when your bard can distract the guards at the target facility by converting them. The Fast Talking ability's a nice perk, too.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 12:43 AM
I really like the idea of the spellsword. If spells didn't get me so excited, I'd take more than one level in it.

Two prestige classes I'm a big fan of is the (Illithid) Slayer and the Mage of the Arcane Order. Walker in the Waste is really cool, too.

Edit
@ Sinfire Titan
Do you allow Incantatrixes to circumvent the limitations of persistent spell?

No, I do not. The problem is that they can boost their Spellcraft checks to the point that they can Persist any legal target for free, even if someone else casts the spell they target.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 12:46 AM
Personally, I'm having a blast with Evangelist. Espionage is far more fun when your bard can distract the guards at the target facility by converting them. The Fast Talking ability's a nice perk, too.

To rush Diplomacy with your Bard, a better option is to simply bind Naberius using the feat from Tome of Magic. Not only will you not lose bard levels by doing so, you can now Disguise Self at will, take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if threatened, and rush those checks at NO penalty (instead of the -5 penalty for Fast Talking.)

If you have a constitution bonus, you can even choose a number of skills you don't have trained, and make them as though you're trained. And you continually heal ability damage round by round. All for one feat!

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 12:53 AM
To rush Diplomacy with your Bard, a better option is to simply bind Naberius using the feat from Tome of Magic. Not only will you not lose bard levels by doing so, you can now Disguise Self at will, take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if threatened, and rush those checks at NO penalty (instead of the -5 penalty for Fast Talking.)

If you have a constitution bonus, you can even choose a number of skills you don't have trained, and make them as though you're trained. And you continually heal ability damage round by round. All for one feat!

Bind Vestige does not work that way! [/Morbo] Please, reread the feat's effect closely.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 12:57 AM
Bind Vestige does not work that way! [/Morbo] Please, reread the feat's effect closely.

Ah right, only one bonus :smallbiggrin:

Well, binding Naberius with the feat still gets him Silver Tongue, which is exactly what he wants for his Evangelist (Improved Fast Talking, take 10 on Diplomacy) without losing caster levels or bardic music.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-15, 12:58 AM
To rush Diplomacy with your Bard, a better option is to simply bind Naberius using the feat from Tome of Magic. Not only will you not lose bard levels by doing so, you can now Disguise Self at will, take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if threatened, and rush those checks at NO penalty (instead of the -5 penalty for Fast Talking.)

If you have a constitution bonus, you can even choose a number of skills you don't have trained, and make them as though you're trained. And you continually heal ability damage round by round. All for one feat!

Feat doesn't give you all that. It gives you a tiny bit of Naberius. To get the whole thing you need a level dip.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 12:58 AM
Feat doesn't give you all that. It gives you a tiny bit of Naberius. To get the whole thing you need a level dip.

See above - I made the correction.

Kylarra
2010-02-15, 12:58 AM
RSoP is not balanced. It's like Planar Shepherd - gives you the full power of the base class and more, with no drawback. It even refunds the domain slot that you use on Sun to enter it.Not quite. you do lose 1hp/lvl on average... :smallwink:


Honestly, I'd say the opportunity cost of being tied to the burning hate is fairly steep, unless some splats have enhanced his domain set significantly beyond the ones I remember.

Kira_the_5th
2010-02-15, 01:04 AM
Well, binding Naberius with the feat still gets him Silver Tongue, which is exactly what he wants for his Evangelist (Improved Fast Talking, take 10 on Diplomacy) without losing caster levels or bardic music.

Actually, I just love the flavor of being the door to door religious salesman of spies. Sure, Binding seems better from a optimization standpoint, but it loses the feel of what I was going for in the first place, a a guy who fascinates the guards at secure facilities with door to door evangelism while his allies sneak in through the side.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 01:07 AM
Honestly, I'd say the opportunity cost of being tied to the burning hate is fairly steep, unless some splats have enhanced his domain set significantly beyond the ones I remember.

The Adaptation lets you pick any deity or pantheon with the Sun domain. Worship the Sovereign Host in Eberron - thanks to Dol Allarh, they get Sun, meaning you can then pick freely among all of their domains as the bonus one.

Balinor (also in the Host) gives you Celerity - whee!!


Actually, I just love the flavor of being the door to door religious salesman of spies. Sure, Binding seems better from a optimization standpoint, but it loses the feel of what I was going for in the first place, a a guy who fascinates the guards at secure facilities with door to door evangelism while his allies sneak in through the side.

I understand. I was just pointing out that fluff is mutable - if you want to be an Evangelist, you can be a Bard with Perform (Oratory) and Naberius, and simply call yourself one, for a much bigger boost in power.

But that's the min/maxer in me talking, please carry on. :smallwink:

Kylarra
2010-02-15, 01:09 AM
The Adaptation lets you pick any deity or pantheon with the Sun domain. Worship the Sovereign Host in Eberron - thanks to Dol Allarh, they get Sun, meaning you can then pick freely among all of their domains as the bonus one.

Balinor (also in the Host) gives you Celerity - whee!!Well, sure, but that's an adaptation, not RSoP, since the P would be noticeably lacking at that point. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 01:12 AM
Well, sure, but that's an adaptation, not RSoP, since the P would be noticeably lacking at that point. :smalltongue:

Call it Radiant Servant of X then. The point is that the PrC is borked.

Glory and Purification aren't that bad anyway. The former gives you a bonus to turning (as if you needed more) and the latter boosts your CL for Abjuration spells (as if clerics weren't already dispelling masters.)

faceroll
2010-02-15, 02:13 AM
Not quite. you do lose 1hp/lvl on average... :smallwink:


Honestly, I'd say the opportunity cost of being tied to the burning hate is fairly steep, unless some splats have enhanced his domain set significantly beyond the ones I remember.

Yeah; you can't go planning + undeath for your domains, though undeath isn't that important when it's only worth 4k.

Twilightwyrm
2010-02-15, 03:03 AM
I'm not sure if this is considered unbalanced or not, but I've always liked the Champion of Corellon Latharian. It combines the high AC and sword focus I've always wanted from a swordmaster like D&D class (albeit in this case with heavy armor) with a spiritual and philosophical aspect absent from the common fighting class.

Window459
2010-02-15, 03:15 AM
Champion of Gwynharwyf cause you become a barbarian/paladin which is fun

Emmerask
2010-02-15, 03:27 AM
Hm awesome but none gamebreaking

I like the drunken master although it is mechanically weak but during a barfight you really shine ^^

Rage mage style is pretty awesome but extremely weak (only half casting progression) a good prc for a t3 and lower campaign (you may ask your gm if he allows t2 chars with a prc that puts him at t3-t4)

And last but not least seeker of the song is really nice :)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:31 AM
I know ALOT of people that hate prestige classes because they say it "overpowers" them. It does not do that. It just specializes them. And peopel tend to be better at something they can do. It isn't like they all of a sudden became good at EVERYTHING.

Tainted Scholar. You become better at EVERYTHING except getting along with people. Which isn't all that much of a problem, since you have Teh Ultimate Power and can just kill them all. Or, y'know, you can Charm them or Dominate them with unbeatable save DCs, but that's not as fun.

Thing about Tainted Scholar is that the fluff actually justifies it being significantly more powerful than standard Wiz. The problem is just that because it's a game, having one guy in the party ascend to near-omnipotence through channeling the power of Pure Evil (tm) isn't all that interesting for the other players.


That is scary. I don't hace access to the 3.5 Incantrix. Could it work with the 3.0 one?

I don't think so. The key things for an Incantatrix there are Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-02-15, 12:00 PM
I'm a big fan of going War Weaver, with or without persistent spell on top, mostly because it means that I can cover for everyone else's slack if needed.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 12:12 PM
RSoP is not balanced. It's like Planar Shepherd - gives you the full power of the base class and more, with no drawback.

Well yeah, most of the prestige classes are like that, that's why people don't stick around with base class more than 5-6 levels. Why does it have to have a drawback anyways?

And Radiant Servant is overpowered only in undead based campaigns. Saying his overpowered because he doesn't lose anything makes every other caster class that doesn't lose casting levels overpowered. Which they aren't (not all of them, anyways).

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 12:18 PM
Call it Radiant Servant of X then. The point is that the PrC is borked.

Glory and Purification aren't that bad anyway. The former gives you a bonus to turning (as if you needed more) and the latter boosts your CL for Abjuration spells (as if clerics weren't already dispelling masters.)

Why arer picking those 2? Pick Incarnum. Every Diety has Incarnum as a domain according to Magic of Incarnum.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 12:19 PM
Well yeah, most of the prestige classes are like that, that's why people don't stick around with base class more than 5-6 levels. Why does it have to have a drawback anyways?

And Radiant Servant is overpowered only in undead based campaigns. Saying his overpowered because he doesn't lose anything makes every other caster class that doesn't lose casting levels overpowered. Which they aren't (not all of them, anyways).

No - it has nothing to do with simply having 10/10 casting, and everything to do with being strictly better than a base cleric.

Perhaps "borked" was too harsh for the class, but it is certainly overpowered. You're wrong that it's only uber in Undead campaigns - the empowered/maximized healing, disease immunity, boost to will saves and bonus domain are beneficial no matter what campaign your DM is running. What exactly does base cleric get that Radiant Servant doesn't?


Why arer picking those 2? Pick Incarnum. Every Diety has Incarnum as a domain according to Magic of Incarnum.

I wasn't - those are the two that the PrC states you can pick regardless of deity. I could be a RS of the Sovereign Host and grab Celerity and Force, or Competition and War, etc. as my two domains if I wanted to.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 12:40 PM
No - it has nothing to do with simply having 10/10 casting, and everything to do with being strictly better than a base cleric.

That's because every base class pretty much sucks on its own. Same goes for Wizard, Sorcerer etc who don't get any abilities past lvl 1.

Is it overpowered compared to base Cleric? Yes. Is it overpowered compared to rest of the Cleric prestige classes? No.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 12:54 PM
Why arer picking those 2? Pick Incarnum. Every Diety has Incarnum as a domain according to Magic of Incarnum.

Doesn't do much good for them though. Not everyone has meldshaping abilities, and its not like a RSoP can enter Sapphire Hierarch due to domain restrictions. Unless he worships Seterous (SIC), but that's quite crazy.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 12:59 PM
That's because every base class pretty much sucks on its own. Same goes for Wizard, Sorcerer etc who don't get any abilities past lvl 1.

Is it overpowered compared to base Cleric? Yes. Is it overpowered compared to rest of the Cleric prestige classes? No.

Yes, but if you want to just be a quintessential cleric, RS is a no-brainer if your DM allows it.

The same cannot be said of other PrCs. Ordained Champion makes you a better fighter (at the expense of some cleric features), Divine Oracle makes you the soothsayer (at the expense of some cleric features), and Thaumaturgist makes you the summoner (at the expense of some cleric features) - but RS is the only one that just plain makes you a better cleric.

It should always be a tradeoff - a choice. That is the first place Planar Shepherd went wrong, and that is where RS went wrong as well. PS just went completely bananas after that point, whereas RS remained simply overpowered.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 01:12 PM
Ah, but there's a difference:


The same cannot be said of other PrCs. Ordained Champion makes you a better fighter (at the expense of some cleric features)

OC doesn't just make you a better fighter. It makes you a tremendously good fighter at the expense of some cleric features. Which is a good tradeoff, if you want to fight.

So you trade in some cleric features in order to become really good at something else. I don't really know if that applies to Thaumaturgist and Divine Oracle, but I'm sure that was at least the general idea.

Whereas, RSoP doesn't make you excel at anything in particular (except the very specific, turning) and healing from domains (at levels 2, 6 and 10), which isn't really quite a lot of spells, and healing is subpar anyways.

There are more prestige classes like that. Inquisitor, for example. Clerics are not my specialty, so I can't think of any else off the top of my head, but there's a bunch of them for wizards.

Grumman
2010-02-15, 01:13 PM
Yes, but if you want to just be a quintessential cleric, RS is a no-brainer if your DM allows it.
If you want to just be a "quintessential cleric", you need all the help you can get. Exchanging a few hit points for being a better healbot and better at turning undead is not the sort of thing that unbalances games.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 01:34 PM
OC doesn't just make you a better fighter. It makes you a tremendously good fighter at the expense of some cleric features. Which is a good tradeoff, if you want to fight.

It is a good tradeoff.

Tradeoff being the operative word.

But you trade nothing for being an RS. All of the prereqs are things you get naturally just by staying in cleric. Even Extra Turning is something most, if not all clerics will pick up.

The problem is that - as long as RS is in your game - there is zero reason to stay straight cleric. Just like if Planar Shepherd is in your game, there is no reason to be straight druid, or if Incantatrix is in your game there is no reason to be straight wizard.

But Divine Oracle does require sacrifice - a dead feat (Skill Focus, yuck) and not advancing turning - in exchange for powerful benefits.

When a PrC completely obviates the viability of the base class, I consider that overpowered.


If you want to just be a "quintessential cleric", you need all the help you can get. Exchanging a few hit points for being a better healbot and better at turning undead is not the sort of thing that unbalances games.

I didn't say it "unbalanced the game." I said it made staying straight cleric pointless.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 01:45 PM
I didn't say it "unbalanced the game." I said it made staying straight cleric pointless.

I already pointed out that staying in any base class is pointless. As it is, base classes are just a means to reach your desired prestige class, and it applies to every class. Why go straight Rogue when you can go Assassin? Or Invisible Blade, Shadow Thief etc.


Just like if Planar Shepherd is in your game, there is no reason to be straight druid

Maybe you don't want to be a Planar Druid?


or if Incantatrix is in your game there is no reason to be straight wizard.

Incantatrix requires to ban Abjuration. That's a big sacrfice, if you ask me. One I wouldn't be willing to make. It's not a logical extension to wizard. The reason being I want to cast Dispel Magic.

Point being, base classes are crap and there's no reason to play one for 20 levels. Just because RSoP doesn't require worthless feat investment doesn't make it a broken class, since it doesn't really get you anything good compared to other prestige classes.

Not to mention you HAVE to be Neutral Good and you HAVE to worship Pelor (or some other Sun god) which is a pretty specific requirment which not everyone will fullfil.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:48 PM
Incantatrix requires to ban Abjuration. That's a big sacrfice, if you ask me. One I wouldn't be willing to make. It's not a logical extension to wizard. The reason being I want to cast Dispel Magic.

What? Abjuration is the only thing you CAN'T ban for that requirement (well, and Divination, as usual).

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 01:49 PM
Incantatrix requires to ban Abjuration. That's a big sacrfice, if you ask me. One I wouldn't be willing to make. It's not a logical extension to wizard. The reason being I want to cast Dispel Magic.


Reread the class. It requires you to not have banned Abjuration. It then says "Ban another school". Even if it did, if you entered at 6th level you'd be able to keep Dispel Magic.



Point being, base classes are crap and there's no reason to play one for 20 levels. Just because RSoP doesn't require worthless feat investment doesn't make it a broken class, since it doesn't really get you anything good compared to other prestige classes.

I love how you don't know exactly what you are talking about. Crusader, Incarnate, Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Dread Necromancer, Artificer, and Druid are all classes that are worth taking to 20 (depending on the objective you want to accomplish).

Yes, a vast majority of classes are not worth taking to 20th. Not all of them, as your statement implies.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 02:08 PM
Reread the class. It requires you to not have banned Abjuration.

Yeah, I missed that, sorry. Then it's better than I thought, I guess, but just because you don't lose anything by taking it doesn't mean everyone would want to play it and it's OP because of it.


Yes, a vast majority of classes are not worth taking to 20th. Not all of them, as your statement implies.

Ok, I forgot about Druid, my bad, and I was reffering to core classes. And that's the only one out of eleven. But my point still stands, as you have said, vast majority isn't worth staying in, and that's the problem of the base class, not of the prestige.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 02:08 PM
I didn't say it "unbalanced the game." I said it made staying straight cleric pointless.
Hardly. There's all sorts of reasons to play straight cleric, still. For example, one might want the very tasty Magic Domain or any of the other really tasty ones out there, in a campaign where you can't just homebrew your own arbitrary god of leet hax to play a Radiant Servant of Someone Who's Not Pelor.

Now, some DMs will allow you to mix and match domains, especially if you give some good fluff. But many (probably the majority) that I've played under don't. Even the ones that do are fairly likely to enforce it for an obviously god-themed class like this one. And even the ones that are okay with using the "adaption" section in general are liable not to, for exactly the reason you've said - allowing it makes base Cleric kinda silly. Same reason people ignore Arcane Swordsage, really.

Without that flexibility, taking RSoP ties you down to a fairly narrow style of Cleric, with a narrow and generally sub-par set of domains. It also commits you to a class which, while offering some small advantages over base Cleric, really doesn't actually do all that much whatsoever.

Clerics, due to their utter lack of class features, get a lot out of PrCing and lose little in general. There's several good PrCs they can take that cost them little to nothing and give good things in return. RSoP is honestly one of the weakest of these though unless you're going heavy-undead. I wouldn't worry about it.

Kylarra
2010-02-15, 02:42 PM
I'd really like Optimystik to at least acknowledge the fact that RSoX is losing 1hp/lvl on average, the equivalent of an improved toughness feat. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 02:55 PM
Hardly. There's all sorts of reasons to play straight cleric, still. For example, one might want the very tasty Magic Domain or any of the other really tasty ones out there, in a campaign where you can't just homebrew your own arbitrary god of leet hax to play a Radiant Servant of Someone Who's Not Pelor.

I can get Magic just fine by being a Radiant Servant and worshipping the Sovereign Host.


Now, some DMs will allow you to mix and match domains, especially if you give some good fluff. But many (probably the majority) that I've played under don't. Even the ones that do are fairly likely to enforce it for an obviously god-themed class like this one. And even the ones that are okay with using the "adaption" section in general are liable not to, for exactly the reason you've said - allowing it makes base Cleric kinda silly. Same reason people ignore Arcane Swordsage, really.

But this adapatation is a bit more ubiquitous than usual. Pelor does not exist in Eberron or FR, after all. The only real requirement is the Sun domain, and that isn't much of a weakness

And if your DM allows causes, ideals or custom deities, go nuts!


Without that flexibility, taking RSoP ties you down to a fairly narrow style of Cleric, with a narrow and generally sub-par set of domains. It also commits you to a class which, while offering some small advantages over base Cleric, really doesn't actually do all that much whatsoever.

Clerics, due to their utter lack of class features, get a lot out of PrCing and lose little in general. There's several good PrCs they can take that cost them little to nothing and give good things in return. RSoP is honestly one of the weakest of these though unless you're going heavy-undead. I wouldn't worry about it.

I'm not "worried" about it. I'm simply saying that I don't think you give up enough for the benefits you get here.

In other words, if what you want is to be a traditional cleric - your best option should be to be one, not be a super-cleric via PrC.


I'd really like Optimystik to at least acknowledge the fact that RSoX is losing 1hp/lvl on average, the equivalent of an improved toughness feat. :smalltongue:

So acknowledged. :smallwink: I rescind all my objections.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 03:12 PM
I can get Magic just fine by being a Radiant Servant and worshipping the Sovereign Host.
If you're in Eberron. Seeing as how the Greyhawk gods are the default, and tend to get used for most campaigns that aren't explicitly based in another setting, which has other gods and PrCs that you can have fun with anyway.



But this adapatation is a bit more ubiquitous than usual. Pelor does not exist in Eberron or FR, after all. The only real requirement is the Sun domain, and that isn't much of a weakness

And if your DM allows causes, ideals or custom deities, go nuts!
Most don't, in my experience, or at least most I've known see it as mildly cheesy and would be leery of letting you access a god-specific PrC that way.



I'm not "worried" about it. I'm simply saying that I don't think you give up enough for the benefits you get here.

In other words, if what you want is to be a traditional cleric - your best option should be to be one, not be a super-cleric via PrC.
What benefits?

"Extra Greater Turning" is nice in a zombie apocalypse, but turning in general only really helps against masses of weaker undead, and Greater Turning requires that you successfuly do a normal Turning anyway, and if you're already doing that then the difference between "fleeing and cowering for 10 rounds" and "dead" is honestly rather trivial in most cases. If it worked on CR-appropriate enemies reliably that would help, but we both known that turning lags farther and farther behind as you go.

"Divine Health" is practically useless, especially on a class that already had high Fort and spells for dealing with disease.

Empower and Maximize Healing are pretty much jokes. Specifically they don't work on Heal, which is the only in-combat healing spell that's really useful. They help out-of-combat healing, but honestly if that's a major concern then you're probably doing something wrong.

Aura of Warding is nice, but the radius is small enough to be a substantial limiter.

Positive Energy Burst is cool but doesn't really do enough and any Cleric worth his salt has better uses for Turning, especially vs undead.


....you do get a Bonus Domain, though. If you're in Eberron, and if your DM allows the adaption of RSoP, and if your DM lets you worship the whole pantheon, then that becomes very useful. Otherwise, YMMV.

Lysander
2010-02-15, 03:17 PM
How about the Legendary Dreadnought epic prestige class? You mostly just get more durable but it has one of the coolest abilities ever at level 1: the ability to punch down Walls of Force as a non-magical ability.

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 04:12 PM
Empower and Maximize Healing are pretty much jokes. Specifically they don't work on Heal, which is the only in-combat healing spell that's really useful. They help out-of-combat healing, but honestly if that's a major concern then you're probably doing something wrong.


And this works only on spells cast from Healing Domain.

JonestheSpy
2010-02-15, 07:07 PM
Soulbow is a lot of fun - I like archers.

I also really like the Risen Martyr, though I haven't actually had one in a game. As I prefer low-magic games where resurrection is extremely rare, I dig the idea of a class specifically designed to justify playing a character after they die.

Yrcrazypa
2010-02-15, 07:41 PM
I have fun with Arcane Tricksters. There's something about being a rogue that can cast spells that is a lot of fun to me.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-15, 07:47 PM
I have fun with Arcane Tricksters. There's something about being a rogue that can cast spells that is a lot of fun to me.

Then you will love the Unseen seer (Complete MAge) same principle as Arcane trickester but really easier prerequisites, IIRC just 1d6 of extra damage (SA, Skirimish and Suddden strike count) and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 07:49 PM
Then you will love the Unseen seer (Complete MAge) same principle as Arcane trickester but really easier prerequisites, IIRC just 1d6 of extra damage (SA, Skirimish and Suddden strike count) and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

Hmm... any way for a warlock/ roug rog thief to get into that?

(I do so have trouble figuring out what a warlock can and can't go into.)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 08:00 PM
Hmm... any way for a warlock/ roug rog thief to get into that?

(I do so have trouble figuring out what a warlock can and can't go into.)

Divination spells are required. Warlock can't get in easily.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 08:02 PM
Divination spells are required. Warlock can't get in easily.

Meh. Then I'll just stick with Arcane Trickster, If I must jump through hoops anyways. Thanks

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 08:11 PM
What benefits?

You're still missing my point, zeal. I'm not comparing RSoP to other prestige classes. I'm comparing it to base cleric and saying "well, if you want to be a general cleric and this thing is available, it's a no-brainer."

The same can't be said for Divine Oracle, Thaumaturgist, even Ordained Champion. Those are all great PrCs, but they each push your cleric in a particular direction.

RSoP does not - it just makes you a better cleric. Hell, you can even dip in for 5 levels or so, for the disease immunity, refund your domain, and super turn undead, and then pop back out to join the PrC you really want. You lose nothing by doing so.

A PrC should always have a tradeoff. The biggest one RS has is "must be NG." If you're an NG cleric, why wouldn't you join this class?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 08:13 PM
You're still missing my point, zeal. I'm not comparing RSoP to other prestige classes. I'm comparing it to base cleric and saying "well, if you want to be a general cleric and this thing is available, it's a no-brainer."

The same can't be said for Divine Oracle, Thaumaturgist, even Ordained Champion. Those are all great PrCs, but they each push your cleric in a particular direction.

RSoP does not - it just makes you a better cleric. Hell, you can even dip in for 5 levels or so, for the disease immunity, refund your domain, and super turn undead, and then pop back out to join the PrC you really want. You lose nothing by doing so.

A PrC should always have a tradeoff. The biggest one RS has is "must be NG." If you're an NG cleric, why wouldn't you join this class?

You have to take one of three domains, all three of which are subpar?

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 09:19 PM
You lose nothing by doing so

You lose D8 HD, to be fair. It's not much, but it's not nothing.


The biggest one RS has is "must be NG." If you're an NG cleric, why wouldn't you join this class?

Because you might want to take another prestige class that gives you actual benefits, not mediocre ones. Same can be said of Church Inqusitor (which you can take at 4th lvl), Holt Warden, Paragnostic Apostle, Contemplative, Divine Disciple and any other number of cleric prestige classes that don't have many drawbacks and are easy to gain entry.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 09:42 PM
Then you will love the Unseen seer (Complete MAge) same principle as Arcane trickester but really easier prerequisites, IIRC just 1d6 of extra damage (SA, Skirimish and Suddden strike count) and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

It doesn't require Sneak Attack at all, but it helps to have it.

You could be sneaky and use Unseen Seer to qualify for Arcane Trickster while only losing 1 caster level (and at level 6 to boot). You can get some quite nasty attacks with that and Archmage's Arcane Fire.

FishAreWet
2010-02-15, 10:03 PM
You're still missing my point, zeal. I'm not comparing RSoP to other prestige classes. I'm comparing it to base cleric

Why? Why ignore other PrC choices?

Gametime
2010-02-15, 10:17 PM
Why? Why ignore other PrC choices?

Because, if I'm reading his argument correctly, he isn't saying that the class is unbalanced in a global sense but that it represents a fundamentally unbalanced principle present in some prestige classes: that base classes exist only to get you into a strictly superior prestige class. (A game built around this principle isn't necessarily a bad thing, but prestige classes are supposed to be choices, in theory.)

At this point, though, I doubt any new arguments will be introduced on either side - so what say we all get back to light-hearted gushing about cool classes and abilities? I'm personally a huge fan of the Eternal Blade's innocuous but helpful class features (and the awesome capstone doesn't hurt any).

Gorbash
2010-02-15, 10:30 PM
I agree with the derailment. It's not like any of us will accept other side's opinions, this internet after all.

Anyways, I really hate it when Prestige Classes don't have a cool capstone ability. I'm really diappointed when all they get is 'ability they got at first level +4'

FishAreWet
2010-02-15, 10:40 PM
Thrall of XXX classes from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv are almost always tons of fun.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-15, 10:42 PM
I forgot the name of the class but there is an eberron prestige class ...ghost blade or something along the lines of that but I am not sure. Anyway it looks loke a great class, it is only 5 levels long and has full bab soo you can entet into eterna blade later and the printed fluff also makes sense.

The idea is that you are a conduit of the ancestors of the valenar elf, it gives quite a few abilities to improve the valenar double scimitar, including as a capstone treating IIRC both ends of the weapon as a THW so power attacl works!!! also full BAB.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-15, 11:02 PM
Anyways, I really hate it when Prestige Classes don't have a cool capstone ability. I'm really diappointed when all they get is 'ability they got at first level +4'

That's still better than some classes. The Tattooed Monk, for example, gets nothing at level 10, not even "first level ability +X."

Also, it's especially annoying when the capstone is "first level ability +X" AND the level 8 or 9 ability is "capstone-worthy ability."

Grumman
2010-02-16, 12:21 AM
RSoP does not - it just makes you a better cleric.
That's exactly my point: it makes you a better cleric, when you're better off playing cleric-as-divine-gish. It's like a PrC for wizards who want to use evocation blasting spells, or for monks that want to specialise in grappling large monsters. Even if there aren't any downsides to entering the PrC, actually using the class features means wasting time on things that are almost always inferior.

Rowsen
2010-02-16, 12:30 AM
I like the Master Transmogrophist. Because sometimes I'd rather be a dragon. Pity it only has 6/10 casting. On the other hand it is built around boosting Polymorph so I guess it balances out.

I also like the Vermin Lord though I'm not sure why.

tarbrush
2010-02-16, 06:19 AM
I have a deep and abiding love for Telflammar Shadowlord. It can be broken, but it's not like it's a full caster.

weenie
2010-02-16, 06:56 AM
Swiftblade is my all time favorite PrC. Besides that I also enjoy the flavor of Red wizards, because of their heavy specialization and because circle magic offers a reason why they wouldn't just kill each other straight away, but unfortunately circle magic is just too prone to abuse, so the PrC probably won't fit into this category.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 07:08 AM
You have to take one of three domains, all three of which are subpar?

If you were being the quintessential cleric (of Pelor especially), you would have taken those domains anyway.

Also, Sovereign Host gives great domains.


Because, if I'm reading his argument correctly, he isn't saying that the class is unbalanced in a global sense but that it represents a fundamentally unbalanced principle present in some prestige classes: that base classes exist only to get you into a strictly superior prestige class. (A game built around this principle isn't necessarily a bad thing, but prestige classes are supposed to be choices, in theory.)

Yes, this is exactly what I'm saying.


That's exactly my point: it makes you a better cleric, when you're better off playing cleric-as-divine-gish. It's like a PrC for wizards who want to use evocation blasting spells, or for monks that want to specialise in grappling large monsters. Even if there aren't any downsides to entering the PrC, actually using the class features means wasting time on things that are almost always inferior.

It may be inferior to other options, but if the player wants to be that kind of cleric then Radiant Servant is a no-brainer. There is no reason to even consider anything else.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 07:10 AM
Horizon Walker: Dimension door every 1d4 rounds and immunity to harmpful alignment spells. Useful, but not gamebreaking.

Calmar
2010-02-16, 07:42 AM
Yeah, horizon walker is a very cool class. I don't know from ingame-experience whether it's overpowered, but to me it does not seem so. I really like its fluff. It's also nice that you can easily cut the PrC in half, if your campaign is not going to take place on other planes. :smallsmile:

warmachine
2010-02-16, 07:43 AM
Mystic Theurge. Although the loss of spellcaster progression hurts, you get to play god with a wide range and numerous spells. No matter what the GM throws at you, you've probably got a spell to deal with it. Haste, Silence, Fly, Invisibility Purge, Web, Deathward, Arcane Eye, healing etc. The stupid non-spellcasters will love you for making it easier to hack things to death. Let the mortals have their victory, you're dealing with the big picture. Meanwhile, other spellcasters aren't upset because they can still make a difference with their best spells but they're really just useful complements to your plans.

Gorbash
2010-02-16, 08:23 AM
Meanwhile, other spellcasters aren't upset because they can still make a difference with their best spells but they're really just useful complements to your plans.

I really hope you are joking.

Ormagoden
2010-02-16, 09:31 AM
I can think of a few.


Beast master- I was like 6 and watching that movie. There is nothing more I want in a Dnd character than 2 ferrets, a tiger, and an eagle.
Kensai- Nothing says warrior more than a sword with part of your soul in it.
Dread commando- Again, I was like 6 and watching Rambo. He's a dread commando if I ever did see one.
War weaver- As long as you don't purposefully attempt to T off your DM with it this class is great without using any dumb tricks. The way I always thought a "war wizard" should be.
Gate crasher- I know I'm gonna catch flack for this one. BUT, If your campaign includes alot of "Planescaping" This is a really fun and useful class. Especially when you end up fighting demons and devils all the time.

weenie
2010-02-16, 09:37 AM
Oh, and ultimate magus. Not as strong as a pure wizard, but all that nova potential is just super fun :)

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 12:07 PM
Mystic Theurge. ... Meanwhile, other spellcasters aren't upset because they can still make a difference with their best spells but they're really just useful complements to your plans.

Im currently playing in a campaign with a sorc/cleric MT with no early entry shenanigans. Im a straight wizzie. Generalist, domain wizard. He does have more spell slots than me...by about six. We're level 11.

MAD + being behind in both classes really cuts into the actual diversity of spells available. Now, you can build a MT to be quite nasty, but it's not so by default.

Imagine if I'd been a focused specialist. I think I'd be tied for him on spells ready to fire off at any given time.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 12:13 PM
Im currently playing in a campaign with a sorc/cleric MT with no early entry shenanigans. Im a straight wizzie. Generalist, domain wizard. He does have more spell slots than me...by about six. We're level 11.

MAD + being behind in both classes really cuts into the actual diversity of spells available. Now, you can build a MT to be quite nasty, but it's not so by default.

Imagine if I'd been a focused specialist. I think I'd be tied for him on spells ready to fire off at any given time.

Yeah, Mystic Theurge is so controversial (without early entry shenanigans) largely because its power is so variable depending on level. At level 6 or 7 it's a terrible, terrible idea. By Level 11 it's starting to catch up to usefulness again. At Level 16 it's actually very powerful -- more powerful than a pure Wizard or Cleric unless that Wizard or Cleric optimizes the use of their highest-level spell slots. (Which, granted, isn't very hard.) After 16 the Theurge falls a little bit behind again.

AstralFire
2010-02-16, 12:17 PM
That Bard PrC based around the stars that makes Bards 9th level casters. Name slips my memory.

Dervish.

Exalted Arcanist.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-16, 12:21 PM
FORCE. MISSILE. MAGE!!!

Magic Missile is THE Mage spell, a PrC dedicated solely to making it better is amazing. Argent Savant has nothing on this guy (and it even has a funky picture to go with it).

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 12:23 PM
That Bard PrC based around the stars that makes Bards 9th level casters. Name slips my memory.

Sublime Chord - it's based around maths, actually. :smalltongue:

Speaking of maths, Geometer!

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:31 PM
Souleater and Abjurant Champion are on my top list. As is Walker in the Waste and Eldritch Knight.

However, there is some pseudo-broken cheese with a Warforged Souleater build (Fighter 5/Souleater 10/Warforged Juggernaught 5 for instance)

Abjurand Champion is great for PCs who love to hit things hard and cast things that make people fall down. As does Eldritch Knight, considering I'm using both in a future campaign.

As for WitW, there's a distinct brokenability if done right. With being Undead at 10th level, what is to stop you from turning into a BBEG within the party and more importantly, it gives a buttload of cheated abilities when combined with a class that gives every spell basically (glares at Archivist) and if unregulated, the campaign goes from fun to wtf in a heartbeat. Sorry! Brief rant.

However, I wish to take this time to point my lichly finger at three PrCs that in my opinion need to die in Hellfire: Arch Psion, Heirophant, and Archmage. Isn't the flavor text behind them that the caster is the Ultimatum of their craft, and yet it doesn't advance their casting/manifesting a tall. WotC, what were y'all smoking!!??

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 12:37 PM
I kinda like Thrall of Jubilex. Sure, it only good till level 4. I mean, level 5 are tempting (1/day summon any demon, there are lots of low HD demons with unique spells).

Crowning ability (at level 3): Summon slime at will-green slime auto deals Con damage (no save). You can kill anything alive.

Plus, what other class lets you sing in character: Let's get jiggy with it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ezIih6eLQ

arguskos
2010-02-16, 12:38 PM
However, I wish to take this time to point my lichly finger at three PrCs that in my opinion need to die in Hellfire: Arch Psion, Heirophant, and Archmage. Isn't the flavor text behind them that the caster is the Ultimatum of their craft, and yet it doesn't advance their casting/manifesting a tall. WotC, what were y'all smoking!!??
...? Archmage DOES advance casting dude. The others, sure, they're terribad, but Archmage is pretty solid.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:41 PM
...? Archmage DOES advance casting dude. The others, sure, they're terribad, but Archmage is pretty solid.

Not according to DMG... At least last I checked....

And I almost fell in love with Arch Psion, but LOSING powerpoints??????? No way!

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 12:44 PM
Not according to DMG... At least last I checked....

And I almost fell in love with Arch Psion, but LOSING powerpoints??????? No way!

SRD says yes: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

Look see, you do sacrifice spell slots for class featurs, but you do get +1 arcane class each level.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:46 PM
SRD says yes: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

Look see, you do sacrifice spell slots for class featurs, but you do get +1 arcane class each level.

TOTALLY my bad :(. I feel like a jerk...

Kylarra
2010-02-16, 01:33 PM
However, I wish to take this time to point my lichly finger at three PrCs that in my opinion need to die in Hellfire: Arch Psion, Heirophant, and Archmage. Isn't the flavor text behind them that the caster is the Ultimatum of their craft, and yet it doesn't advance their casting/manifesting a tall. WotC, what were y'all smoking!!??
Uh... Archpsion pretty much advances everything a psion would have gotten in 3.0...


Power Points: Arch psions gain power points per day as though they gained a level of psion. These power points are added to the characters' previous totals. Arch psions gain bonus power points based on the key ability score for their primary ability. If a character previously could not gain bonus power points for high ability scores (as is the case for psychic warriors), she now chooses a primary discipline and can gain bonus power points based on the related ability score.

Powers Discovered: Arch psions discover powers each level as though they gained a level of psion. Powers are chosen from the psion power list. Their effective manifester level is increased by one for each level of the prestige class.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:51 PM
Indeed, Heirophant is the only bad PrC of the three.

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 02:00 PM
I always feel bad looking at the Hierophant and want to give him at least 4/5 spellcasting advancement to help him keep up with his brothers.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:03 PM
Heirophant's great ... in Epic, when you already have 20 levels of divine casting. :smalltongue:

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-16, 02:04 PM
I always feel bad looking at the Hierophant and want to give him at least 4/5 spellcasting advancement to help him keep up with his brothers.

I give him 3/5 Casting and 3/4 BAB. Both SRD classes that can access it (Cleric and Druid) get it, and this thing doesn't :smallconfused:

Fitz10019
2010-02-16, 04:08 PM
I like the fluff of the Whisper Knife -- it's a shame the mechanics are exclusively a throwing PrC. I wish there were a melee version.

Xenogears
2010-02-16, 06:30 PM
WarHulk. I love that thing. Can be beastly if abused but it can also be just plain fun. Attack all enemies (and that one ally that I don't like...) that I can reach as an attack action? Awesome!

Felyndiira
2010-02-16, 06:45 PM
Heirophant's great ... in Epic, when you already have 20 levels of divine casting. :smalltongue:

I'm not sure if that'd be considered the case. It's great if you already jumped prestige classes, but the bonus feats from the straight cleric 23, 26, and 29 can offset the bonuses gained by the hierophant (since they're epic bonus feats, including things like bonus domain, multispell, and 10+ level spell slots).

erikun
2010-02-16, 07:02 PM
How could I forget the psionic prestige classes? Most are pretty awesome, and the lost manifester levels usually keep them from becoming the obvious-takes that spellcaster PrCs occasionally become. Two of my favorites are the Psionic Monk (monk-done-right) and the Psion Uncarnate.


Oh, and ultimate magus. Not as strong as a pure wizard, but all that nova potential is just super fun :)
The Magus is one I like too... but with a single feat (Practiced Spellcaster) you can exchange a total of 2 wizard levels for 9 levels in a secondary class, a handful of metamagic, and nearly free metamagic enhancement of a dozen or so spells each day.

I'm sure I could take it without the feat, but then in ends up as a Mystic Theurge - giving up a lot to be only partially as good as you were before.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-16, 07:20 PM
...The Magus is one I like too... but with a single feat (Practiced Spellcaster) you can exchange a total of 2 wizard levels for 9 levels in a secondary class, a handful of metamagic, and nearly free metamagic enhancement of a dozen or so spells each day.

I'm sure I could take it without the feat, but then in ends up as a Mystic Theurge - giving up a lot to be only partially as good as you were before.

Wizard's with Spontaneous Divinations ACF qualify after 3 Levels and by RAW gain Wizard Spell Progression for all the UM's Wiz AND Sor Levels. All of a sudden at Level 20 you have a CL of 27.

So it can go both ways really :smallwink:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-16, 08:43 PM
Since someone mentioned psionic prg classes: Slayer, I mean fulkl bab and 9/10 manifesting, some normal prerequisites the only odd one, in the sense that is is somewhat weird to take this feat if not for slayer, is track. but it seems as a no brainer for Psychic Warriors or maybe even ardents ( whih can offset the manifesting level lost with precocious aprentice or a Ioun Stone IIRC)

The Ogre
2010-02-16, 09:12 PM
The Pale Master PrC is pretty awesome fluff-wise. The first dead level is a downer but getting access to Anime Dead for free makes it a decent trade-off. The free undead grafts are pretty neat too.

Despite how lacking the Alienist is compared to a Malconvoker, I still like the concept of the Alienist.

Grumman
2010-02-16, 09:26 PM
Since someone mentioned psionic prg classes: Slayer, I mean fulkl bab and 9/10 manifesting, some normal prerequisites the only odd one, in the sense that is is somewhat weird to take this feat if not for slayer, is track.
You're supposed to enter as a Ranger 1 / Psionic Warrior 4, or something like that. That's why it has Track and B.A.B. +4 as prerequisites.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-16, 09:31 PM
Either way it is an excelent class for psygish.

Schylerwalker
2010-02-17, 01:00 AM
I've always really liked the Assassin and the Blackguard -- really, really liked them -- but I've always thought they both deserved a capstone ability.