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Gralamin
2010-02-14, 09:15 PM
So, an interesting question has come up on the IRC recently. Given an endless encounter, in which there is at no single time more enemies then needed for a level equivalent encounter, which party would last the longest while still defeating enemies?

Personally, I'd try a party of

Cleric Multiclass Artificer (For certain dailies)
Psion
Vestige Warlock
Fey Warlock
Paladin

Since each is very durable in their own right, and brings much of value to the team.

If level matters, I'd say 5, 15, and 25 are good marks. If terrain matters, assume there is enough room for all combatants to maneuver, without an endless amount (So say, a 20 x 20 room).

What does the playground think?

Important rules clarifications
Post 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7890724&postcount=3)
Post 37 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7897324&postcount=37)

Skrizzy
2010-02-14, 09:24 PM
Well, this gets more into it, what defenses are the enemies attacking? Is it the same composition that always spawns, is it the same enemy period (such as a bunch of agent smith's), the terrain makes a difference, is there anything that can give cover? What magic items are they allowed?

I want to answer your question, but I need to know more about the specifics of the fight to tell you more.

Gralamin
2010-02-14, 09:26 PM
Well, this gets more into it, what defenses are the enemies attacking?
Varies.


Is it the same composition that always spawns, is it the same enemy period (such as a bunch of agent smith's),
Different, depending.


the terrain makes a difference, is there anything that can give cover?
There are things that give cover, but not Superior cover.


What magic items are they allowed? Standard


I want to answer your question, but I need to know more about the specifics of the fight to tell you more.

I thought a lot of these would be granted.

Swordgleam
2010-02-14, 09:28 PM
Shaman, because leader with Con as a key stat seems like "healing surges for everyone!"
Earthstrength Warden as the most Con-based defender
Cleric, because how can that go wrong?
Paladin for defender + healing
Infernal warlock for someone who can deal lots of damage but still has high Con

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-14, 09:51 PM
Barbarians.

5 Rageborn Barbarians each with Silver Phoenix Rage (LV 5 Daily) - Regen 3, a free Surge when you hit 0 HP, and At Wills that give them 5+CON THP per hit.

Those dudes will be there all day :smalltongue:

EDIT: I guess you could swap in a Lazor Cleric with Astral Seal (LV 1 At-Will) if you want to get even more Healing :smallamused:

Oh, and make them all Goliaths with Hide Armor Expertise. That's, what, AC 17+Mods?

At 15, take Goliath Battlearagers MC Barbarian to get Silver Phoenix Rage and Hide Armor Expertise. Because you can never have too much THP.

Altima
2010-02-14, 09:55 PM
Don't forget longtooth shifters, who can have regen that lasts the whole encounter once they're bloodied.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-14, 09:56 PM
Barbarians.

5 Rageborn Barbarians each with Silver Phoenix Rage (LV 5 Daily) - Regen 3, a free Surge when you hit 0 HP, and At Wills that give them 5+CON THP per hit.

Those dudes will be there all day :smalltongue:

Good point, as it's one endless encounter, the rage never ends.

(Or should that be; THE RAGE NEVER ENDS!)

Swordgleam
2010-02-14, 10:08 PM
Because you can never have too much THP.

Doesn't THP not stack?

Tengu_temp
2010-02-14, 10:17 PM
5 Greatbow-using Elven Rangers, with feats and equipment focusing on increasing range and movement speed. At the very minimum everyone has movement speed 8 - that means standard enemies, with movement speed 6, close in at a pace of 4 squares/round (more if they run, but then you get combat advantage and you can take them down faster) as long as you keep shooting and retreating. Most enemies will be dead before they even have a chance to reach you.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-14, 10:18 PM
Doesn't THP not stack?

Geh! Double negatives!
Temp hitpoints are not supposed to stack. They just overlap. (You have 5 THP, get hit for 2 by a minion now you've got 3THP, then get 5 more THP. You've now got a total of 5 THP) There might be a power which was accidentally phrased to allow Temp Hitpoints to stack, but I don't know of one.

sonofzeal
2010-02-14, 10:25 PM
Geh! Double negatives!
Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

Asbestos
2010-02-14, 10:30 PM
Don't forget longtooth shifters, who can have regen that lasts the whole encounter once they're bloodied.

Very good point. Also, not only does Rage never end, but Warden dailies don't either (and neither does any 'until end of the encounter' power).

Encounter powers would be mostly meaningless in this endless encounter though, except for helping get through the first 1 or 2 'encounters' quicker. Ideal dailies would be the ones that grant bonuses to the PCs, but not specific bonuses vs specific enemies.

DarknessLord
2010-02-14, 10:32 PM
Good point, as it's one endless encounter, the rage never ends.

(Or should that be; THE RAGE NEVER ENDS!)

Don't things that last until the end of the encounter only last 5 minutes, like even if you are still in combat, too lazy to look it up now so I'm not 100% sure.

Gralamin
2010-02-14, 10:47 PM
Don't things that last until the end of the encounter only last 5 minutes, like even if you are still in combat, too lazy to look it up now so I'm not 100% sure.

You are correct


Until the end of the Encounter: the effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.

Dailies end.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-14, 10:51 PM
Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, .... among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

I know they're allowed, I just hate reading double and triple negatives. If I'm skimming, a double negative is sure to trip me up.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-14, 11:10 PM
I'll just note that a substantial buff/effect that affects 50 combat rounds is going to be the best choice of a daily power even if combat goes on for another 50 endless, grinding rounds.

CTLC
2010-02-14, 11:30 PM
Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

this is now my favorite post of all time.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-15, 12:36 AM
If I'm correct in presuming sustained powers aren't subject to the abitrary 5 minute limit then this is my strategy for the level 15 mark (because it can't be done before late heroic and I'm sure at epic better options are possible, while the enemies more likely to be able to cope with it)

Four wizards and a leader. The wizards can set up a huge barrier with wall of fire (enough to surround the party with two squares of fire in all directions, more it they can make a stand in the corner) and thunderwave anything that gets inside the wall back through it. The leader is there to heal the wizards when anything is lucky enough to get a hit in (which should be very seldom since the wizards should be at least partially optmized for defence on top of being very difficult to get to) and should have some sort of at-will push as well.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-15, 12:42 AM
Four wizards and a leader. The wizards can set up a huge barrier with wall of fire (enough to surround the party with two squares of fire in all directions, more it they can make a stand in the corner) and thunderwave anything that gets inside the wall back through it. The leader is there to heal the wizards when anything is lucky enough to get a hit in (which should be very seldom since the wizards should be at least partially optmized for defence on top of being very difficult to get to) and should have some sort of at-will push as well.
What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-15, 01:41 AM
The 5 minute rule is the break after the encounter required for the effects to end. If you avoid being attacked or attacking for 5 minutes, any effect that ends at the end of the encounter ends.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-15, 02:32 AM
What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.

There is no reason that the walls have to form a square, you can arrange it so that the wall is still adjacent to every square but the ones the party occupies. Or one of the characters can multiclass shaman for a spirit companion to fill the gap. Readied actions (hopefully) take care of enemies being pushed or slid inside the wall so it is improbable that anything can get inside the wall and attack on the same turn and those that could are unlikely to be able to use an attack that could move the party. However, you do make a good point for when probability allows that eventuallity. To make it ideal, I think it would need to add some powers/items that reduce forced movement.

I believe I mentioned that ideally this would be in a corner of the room, so two wizards can thunderwave out on their turns and two can have thunderwave as readied actions making it extremely unapproachable. It can also free up a wizard or two from wall duty, letting them be able to do something else like make difficult terrain or visions of avarice and to be able to patch up the wall if somebody decides to use Dispel Magic.

Orzel
2010-02-15, 02:46 AM
I'm also in the
"Cleric/Warlock/Rageblood Barbarian/Paladin/human wizard" group.

Especially if you believe dailies and encounters end 5 minutes after the fighting does.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-15, 03:12 AM
What about enemies with powers that cause a slide, push, pull, or can just teleport into the middle of the formation?
At best, your party of 5, can take up a block of 2x3, with one square still open. If they're really foolish, it's a 3x3 square, with 4 squares open.I'm AFB but I think there's a daily Cleric utility power that summons allies who do nothing but occupy squares/provide cover to allies. Might be useful here.

Stunning is a thorn in the side of any sustain: minor strategy though.

Gralamin
2010-02-15, 03:27 AM
I'll just note that a substantial buff/effect that affects 50 combat rounds is going to be the best choice of a daily power even if combat goes on for another 50 endless, grinding rounds.

True, but at max you might cap out at 200 rounds of dailies, and then thats it. Possibly at-will and more defensive features can get you more, but -I- Certainty don't feel like running such a game :smalltongue:

Edit: I suppose if you stagger it right, your group might get up to 1000 rounds of dailies, but I doubt you can keep going as such.


The 5 minute rule is the break after the encounter required for the effects to end. If you avoid being attacked or attacking for 5 minutes, any effect that ends at the end of the encounter ends.

Thats not how the rules work: I quoted the actual rules. Until end of the encounter doesn't mean until the end of the encounter, it means "5 minutes". If you are in combat for 10 minutes straight, your dailies won't last just because you are in combat.


If I'm correct in presuming sustained powers aren't subject to the abitrary 5 minute limit
Correct, but remember, becoming stunned, dazed, or many other conditions can prematurely end a sustained power.

---
Good ideas so far though, quite a few I haven't considered.

Excession
2010-02-15, 04:15 AM
For the "fortress" Wizard group they could all be dwarfs to negate the simpler slide powers. Certainly a standard bullrush doesn't work in that case. Dwarfs also get better access to Second Wind than other races. You could also use hybrid Wizard|Cleric or similar rather than having a single dedicated healer.

Paladins might be good. Lay on Hands can be used 4 or even 5 times a day at level 1, and there's no limit on the number of uses per encounter like Healing Word and similar. Massive AC and piles of surges won't exactly kill you either.

Lunix Vandal
2010-02-15, 06:15 AM
I'll throw out an example that my RL group (currently level 13) stumbled on over the weekend:

Healbot Cleric, with an Astral Seal that hands out 20 HP (give or take a few)
3 other moderately-to-well-optimized party members, and I'm not picky about what they are (we had a Fighter, TWF Ranger, and Wizard at the time)
VS.
An Endless Parade of Adult Green Dragons.

The healbot saves his non-Astral-Seal heals for himself, and spends as much time as possible Astral Sealing the dragon(s). Once the party starts delay-shuffling to give Astral Seal's healing to whoever needs it most, the dragons can't out-damage the free healing without APs. Which they only get two of, each. This is when their 600+ HP becomes a hindrance: especially once their big-damage attacks are gone, the party literally can't kill the dragons fast enough to allow the collective parade to spend an AP every turn.

Alternately (for the lulz), a pair of clerics with Stream of Life can do this all on their lonesomes. The same passive boosts that raise Astral Seal to 20-ish HP bump SoL into the 30s. And ongoing damage doesn't have the "until the end of the encounter or five minutes, whichever comes first" stuff usually tacked on to powers. And you can (a la the power's wording) choose not to save against the damage, so...

Cleric 1: I take the 5 damage from SoL, and heal the other guy for 30.
Cleric 2: I take the 5 damage from SoL, and heal the other guy for 30.
DM: The dragon crits on both of you with his breath weapon for 15 poison damage each. And 5 poison ongoing.
Cleric 1: Dog bowels. I'm wearing Armor of Poison Resistance, so I only take 5, total. On my turn, I take the 5 from SoL, heal him for 30.
DM: I see. Saddening. And you, Cleric 2?
Cleric 2: Oh, what he said. Double the dog bowels. (http://www.erfworld.com/2009/11/book-2-page-3/)

They just need to stay within 5 squares of each other and maintain line-of-sight the whole time. What's that, Mr. Dragon? You have no way of blinding things or prying apart two adjacent creatures by more than 2 squares? For shame.

bosssmiley
2010-02-15, 07:11 AM
I thought that standard 4E attrition party was 4 clerics and a warlord?

hamishspence
2010-02-15, 07:17 AM
Double negatives are actually grammatically acceptable, and indeed occasionally preferable, for certain situations like this one. They only become improper when used for emphasis, such as "I haven't never heard anything like that before". Overzealous english teachers have managed to obscure this fairly self-evident point with excessive condemnations of all double negatives, despite the fact that the Oxford English Dictionary, among other reputable sources, has never prohibited it in general.

Makes me think of that line in Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals- when the maid who is serving isn't the exceptionally attractive one.

"she was good looking, but she was not Her"

(The Professor of Grammar would have corrected this to "she was not she" which would have caused the Professor of Logic to spit out his drink.)

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-15, 03:45 PM
So yeah, 50 Rounds of essential invulnerability is a pretty good place to start if you want an Eternal Combat. The problem with the Clerics & Warlord Party is a severe lack of DPR - no matter how much healing you have, if you don't kill the monsters they will wear you down.

Also: there are other "Silver Phoenix" - like Rages out there; IIRC the LV 15 Party will have a second, so there's 100 rounds. Plus there's Stone Bear Rage (LV 9 Daily) which gives (CON) DR as long as it goes - for Goliath Barbarians (CON 20) that's going to be another 50 rounds.

Oh hey, Stances don't have time limits, so an MC Utility to get Bounless Endurance (LV 2 Fighter Utility) should keep our Goliath Barbarians running forever :smalltongue:

As for the "run away" party - we're not assuming (I don't think) an infinitely flat plane to fight on. If someone is able to swarm one of your Rangers he's dead - and if there's cover, they're going to have trouble too. Nothing stops the Barbarian :smallamused:

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 04:06 PM
Makes me think of that line in Terry Pratchett's Unseen Academicals- when the maid who is serving isn't the exceptionally attractive one.

"she was good looking, but she was not Her"

(The Professor of Grammar would have corrected this to "she was not she" which would have caused the Professor of Logic to spit out his drink.)
Heh, yes. Actually, a lot of grammar misconceptions come from a misguided attempt to try and make english conform to latin rules, when the two languages don't actually have that much in common. Destructive Double Negatives (that resolve to a positive) are fine in english, as is ending a sentence with a preposition, or beginning one with a conjunction. There's also no such thing as a split infinitive in english, and hence no way to improperly split one. In this case, "Her" is being treated as a proper noun, and is hence entirely appropriate there and should in no way be turned into "she" by even the most rigorous stickler.



As to the challenge itself, would it be possible to have a party that could reliably lock down / debuff an entire wave to the point where they're in absolutely no danger, and then "fail" to dispatch that wave? That might allow them to survive indefinitely.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-15, 04:09 PM
As to the challenge itself, would it be possible to have a party that could reliably lock down / debuff an entire wave to the point where they're in absolutely no danger, and then "fail" to dispatch that wave? That might allow them to survive indefinitely.
Dunno.

As worded, it seems like when one monster drops, a new one appears, and AFAIK there's no lockdown mechanism that could hold an entire Encounter indefinitely.

Besides, that seems like a hack. I'm still amused by my All Barbarian Solution (and the Barbarians + Healbot Variant :smalltongue:)

I'm still not sure whether the Ragebloods or the Battleragers would be most effective - but all I can say is that Primal Power's Hide Armor Expertise was a poorly thought-out feat.

Shardan
2010-02-15, 06:17 PM
Battle rager fighter/mc barbarian to get rages for regens as well.

If it truly is 'endless' battle, then at wills will mean more than encounter powers

Colmarr
2010-02-15, 06:21 PM
If it truly is 'endless' battle

It's only 'endless' if the party can avoid dying eventually. Which I doubt any party can do. Sooner or later, attrition will wear them down, even if it's 1 hp at a time.

It's therefore a question not of who can last indefinitely, but who can last the longest, and in that light a 50-round buff is pretty damn useful.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-15, 06:28 PM
Battle rager fighter/mc barbarian to get rages for regens as well.

If it truly is 'endless' battle, then at wills will mean more than encounter powers
The thing is a Battlerager can only get 1 Rage (2 if they take a Barbarian PP - but they shouldn't) which means 50-100 rounds of DOOM. Barbarians, OTOH, get 2 Rages by LV 5 (Battleragers would have 0) and 3 by LV 15. Admittedly, they're not all Silver Phoenixes, but 3 of the ones available by LV 15 (Silver Phoenix, Stone Bear, and the LV 15 Phoenix) make the Barbarian essentially immortal while they run.

As for At-Wills - a Raging Recuperating Strike gives 5+CON THP per hit. A regular Invigorating Strike gives CON+INVIG (typically 2(CON)+1) on a hit and CON on a miss. To balance, every time a Rageblood drops a baddie, he gets 5+CON THP (IIRC, with Improved Rageblood) and Barbarians drop a lot of baddies.

Oh yeah, and Feat Economy - Barbarians spend 1 Feat to get Hide Armor Expertise; Battleragers need 2.

That said, a Battlerager with Boundless Endurance has Regen something silly (3+CON?) forever (while Bloodied) since Stances are not bound by Encounters (IIRC). Of course, a Barbarian MC Fighter gets 3 Immortal Rages plus 1 Immortal Stance... so yeah, I think Barbarians will still come out on top :smallbiggrin:

Swordgleam
2010-02-15, 07:06 PM
So yeah, 50 Rounds of essential invulnerability is a pretty good place to start if you want an Eternal Combat. The problem with the Clerics & Warlord Party is a severe lack of DPR - no matter how much healing you have, if you don't kill the monsters they will wear you down.

I think it depends if you interpret the challenge as the monsters showing up every X rounds, or the monsters showing up whenever you have depleted X% of your current foes. If they show up every X rounds then all-DPS might be the way to go, giving you plenty of free rounds in between to use potions, etc.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-15, 07:28 PM
I think it depends if you interpret the challenge as the monsters showing up every X rounds, or the monsters showing up whenever you have depleted X% of your current foes. If they show up every X rounds then all-DPS might be the way to go, giving you plenty of free rounds in between to use potions, etc.
Maybe, but a Turtle Party is bound to get overwhelmed by a few bad rolls eventually - a Shark Party at least reduces the number of attacks per round.

Assumption: At the end of each round, any downed opponents are replaced by new ones entering from the board edge. They appear on their initiative phase and can act.

Under this method, a Shark Party can probably kill at least one bad guy every round before he can act - which means fewer attacks to deal with. Since the Barbarians have ridiculous AC (thanks to Hide Armor Expertise) and nice Fort they'll be able to shrug off many attacks (unless the DM decides to focus on monsters with Will-targeting Basic Attacks :smallyuk:). For extra lulz, it might not be a bad idea to use Thaneborn Barbarians so that they also get five rounds of combat where everyone is at -2 Defenses (and some extra Will defense).

Gralamin
2010-02-15, 07:34 PM
I think it depends if you interpret the challenge as the monsters showing up every X rounds, or the monsters showing up whenever you have depleted X% of your current foes. If they show up every X rounds then all-DPS might be the way to go, giving you plenty of free rounds in between to use potions, etc.

Okay, since this has become relevant, lets set a rule for it.

Assume there is a table containing all possible challenges (Including Minions, Solos, elites, and standards). A random number generator rolls on that table continuously, making a queue-in of monsters. As soon as enough XP clears to let a monster in, its sent in. If there is an Excess of XP, then however many of them can fit in that XP amount are sent in. (So if it rolls a 25 XP minion, with 500 XP available, you get 20 minions)

Edit: Sent in means they come from any edge that has an opening, and immediately roll initiative, acting when their turn comes up.



As to the challenge itself, would it be possible to have a party that could reliably lock down / debuff an entire wave to the point where they're in absolutely no danger, and then "fail" to dispatch that wave? That might allow them to survive indefinitely.
You've technically stopped defeating foes, which is part of the challenge. To lock down infinitely would just be a way to get yourself disqualified.

Swordgleam
2010-02-15, 10:36 PM
As soon as enough XP clears to let a monster in, its sent in.

It seems like the last thing you'd want then is strikers/DPS - that would just get you more monsters to deal with. So I stand by my initial answer of all defenders/leaders with lots of Con and lots of healing.

Although..


You've technically stopped defeating foes, which is part of the challenge. To lock down infinitely would just be a way to get yourself disqualified.

A lockdown party that kills the lowest xp monster on the field every few rounds might work.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-02-15, 10:41 PM
Temp Hit Points seems like the key here. Why not a Valorous Bard? If you're going to be killing/bloodying things so often...

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 11:07 PM
You've technically stopped defeating foes, which is part of the challenge. To lock down infinitely would just be a way to get yourself disqualified.
Lock down for a month or two, then finish them off. You're now "defeating enemies" over the course of the "battle", and hence win even if you die shortly thereafter.

Dimers
2010-02-16, 01:05 AM
Oh hey, Stances don't have time limits ...

Sorry, no luck there -- "A stance power lasts until the end of the encounter, for 5 minutes, or until you use another stance power."

Going on the assumption that a group could last a few hundred rounds in the first place, then it seems like feats, at-wills, class features and items that heal would have the most benefit. I have a lot of ideas on how to accomplish that, but one really stands out. A Hospitaler paladin heals allies for (level/2)+WisMod when a challenged foe attacks the ally. It doesn't matter whether the attack hits or misses. That's really the strongest way by far to keep healed up in an endless fight -- two or more Hospitalers challenging separate foes. Not as good as the Stream Of Life clerics and harder to maintain (it's a constant whirlwind of motion as each paladin tries to challenge the enemy someone else is facing), but it's got a lot of potential. And hey, the clerics could be MC paladin Hospitalers, anyway.

If you want to get a bit cheesy, have the level 25 party consist of Archmages, which requires the wizard class, which requires a single MC feat. After an Archmage dies, he sticks around in insubstantial form, taking half damage from everything. (The effect explicitly lasts until you take a short rest.) You can still use encounter and at-will powers. So anyone who spends one feat multiclassing to Wizard can reduce damage by 50% for a long, long time.

An Iron Vanguard fighter heals ConMod HP on a kill.

The Life-Stealer infernal warlock PP can self-heal a bit, if he kills lots of natural-origin creatures.

Shaman can heal a bit on an opportunity attack, as well as granting temp HP on a normal melee attack. Debatably, a MC shaman/cleric could benefit from the Warpriest class feature that provides more ways to OA a marked creature.

The Blightspeaker PP for invoker heals himself 5+WisMod HP on divine crits (11th-level feature), and any invoker with a Rod of Hope Triumphant gets temp HP for downing a foe.

An epic druid with Primal Aspect Form feat has regeneration 2 while bloodied.

If the party of 5 is good enough, they can take turns with 4 fighting and 1 taking a short rest to recover encounter powers. :smallwink: And in the same vein, a Swordmaster PP fighter of level 16+ regains a fighter encounter power with every light/heavy blade crit. You could regain the 6th-level utility that reduces damage, or something more worthwhile for attacking, and you can choose on-the-fly.

Ceaon
2010-02-16, 02:17 AM
ShakaUVM from the 4e wiki has one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648814/) or two (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22380297?sdb=1&post_num=1#389672673) interesting things to add to this topic.

Edit: Not everyone is going to follow those links, guess. Those two builds are two characters (a dwarven revenant assassin and a revenant eladrin beastmaster ranger) that are virtually impossible to kill, thanks to revenant shenanigans.
Especially the ranger is just... creepily unkillable..

Yakk
2010-02-16, 10:12 AM
Level ... 24? or is it 21? ... proposal:
1 arcane sword. And 4 of anything. (ok ok, 4 arcane swords -- epic destiny)

They die, then their swords get up and attack. Their swords cannot be attacked, and keep fighting...

Thus killing an infinite number of enemies before being defeated.

(At the end of the fight, the swordmages get back up).

The characters would need some way to get at-will ranged attacks and the like, in case they are fighting harpies. But that shouldn't be that hard.

AgentPaper
2010-02-16, 01:28 PM
Level ... 24? or is it 21? ... proposal:
1 arcane sword. And 4 of anything. (ok ok, 4 arcane swords -- epic destiny)

They die, then their swords get up and attack. Their swords cannot be attacked, and keep fighting...

Thus killing an infinite number of enemies before being defeated.

(At the end of the fight, the swordmages get back up).

The characters would need some way to get at-will ranged attacks and the like, in case they are fighting harpies. But that shouldn't be that hard.

End of encounter, so it lasts for 5 minutes, or 50 rounds.

I think the best bet would be 3-4 longtooth shifter fighters with the Temp HP class feature, using crushing surge and resolute shield, stacking con, and then using Boundless Endurance or Unyielding Avalanche if they're level 15 or higher. Then, 1-2 clerics, using Astral Seal and various sustain effects that heal each round, like Consecrated Ground and Spirit of Healing. If the party is level 22 or higher, then Sealing Death's Door essentially means that they can't die period, unless the cleric is stunned or otherwise made so that he can't keep sustaining the power.

Ormagoden
2010-02-16, 02:17 PM
ShakaUVM from the 4e wiki has one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19648814/) or two (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22380297?sdb=1&post_num=1#389672673) interesting things to add to this topic.

Edit: Not everyone is going to follow those links, guess. Those two builds are two characters (a dwarven revenant assassin and a revenant eladrin beastmaster ranger) that are virtually impossible to kill, thanks to revenant shenanigans.
Especially the ranger is just... creepily unkillable..

CRIPES! you couldn't have warned us about the pic on the second link!

Corvus
2010-02-16, 02:57 PM
Yeah revenants are ideal for this type of thing - especially a Raven Queen worshiping CON based warlock shadar-kai revenant.

The warlock part gives you access to Shadow Warlock armour (first available at +2) which gives you auto CA against any target you have cursed if your Shadow Walk is active. So move 3 squares, curse and have CA. Combine this with Ankhmon's Bracers (late paragon) which causes 1D10 extra damage with arcane attack when you have CA and you also regain HPs equal to the amount of extra damage. Free healing nearly every attack.

Being a Shadar-Kai revenant who worships the Raven Queen allows you to take Raven Consort as an Epic destiny, which at level 24 gives you a +2 untyped bonus to saving throws and defences to the end of the encounter. Cumulative. And if you roll a 20+ on a death save (not hard after a while with all the bonuses you can stack for saves) you heal as if you have spent a healing surge but don't expend one.

Throw in all the other revenant feats - full actions while below 0 HPs, need to fail 2 death saves to fall unconcious, need to fail 5 death saves to die, insubstantial while below 0 HPs etc and you have a character you just can't kill.

Ceaon
2010-02-16, 05:48 PM
CRIPES! you couldn't have warned us about the pic on the second link!

Oh, right, thanks.

Warning: the pic on the second link may be slightly unsettling :smalltongue:

Swordgleam
2010-02-16, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=Corvus;7902224And if you roll a 20+ on a death save (not hard after a while with all the bonuses you can stack for saves) you heal as if you have spent a healing surge but don't expend one.[/QUOTE]

I believe it's nat 20, not a total of 20+.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-02-16, 08:06 PM
I think it is 20+. Or so my cleric friend said, who says he specifically checked the wording when he got that feat that gives +5 to death saves if you're within two squares of him. I don't have the PHB here right now.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-16, 08:30 PM
I think it is 20+. Or so my cleric friend said, who says he specifically checked the wording when he got that feat that gives +5 to death saves if you're within two squares of him. I don't have the PHB here right now.
It is indeed 20+

Swordgleam
2010-02-17, 09:45 AM
It is indeed 20+

Wow. That makes Human Perseverance so much better, and it was already pretty good. 10% chance of auto-reviving?

Thajocoth
2010-02-18, 10:43 AM
Swarm Druids - Luminescent Swarm. Each gives +2 untyped bonus to saves to their allies. That's +8 each (I'm sure they'll eventually change it to not stack.). Add a ring of protection on each player for +9... They also have good con, are primal & wearing Hide, so the +Con to AC feat. They all also reduce melee & ranged damage by their con mod (not a resist), and can use a daily to add a resist equal to their con mod to that for the encounter. A few more dailies and anyone who starts adjacent to them, moves adjacent to them. attacks them or damages them takes damage. Uncanny Dodge - Now they don't grant any attack bonus when enemies have CA. Grasping Claws + feat, any enemy who is hit by an AO is immobilized. Another feat - The druids can shift 2 into a better position when hit by an area or close attack. Another feat, temps whenever they Wild Shape into beast form, so every round, they take turns backing off after their attack, wild shaping to humanoid, then at the start of next turn, wild shaping back to beast to reset their temps.

The Sandman
2010-02-20, 12:09 AM
Assuming you've got enough cover and some way of generating infinite amounts of ammo, a well-built crossbow sniper using the new Rogue stuff in MP2 could probably last for quite a while. With Preparatory Shot, you're getting a Sneak Attack every other round at minimum, and you can easily set yourself up to be constantly Stealthed while moving all around the battlefield by using the Cunning Sneak class feature and the large number of delicious new ranged powers that give you moment and/or attacks that don't necessarily break your cover.

Juk
2010-02-23, 10:25 PM
There is no reason that the walls have to form a square, you can arrange it so that the wall is still adjacent to every square but the ones the party occupies. Or one of the characters can multiclass shaman for a spirit companion to fill the gap. Readied actions (hopefully) take care of enemies being pushed or slid inside the wall so it is improbable that anything can get inside the wall and attack on the same turn and those that could are unlikely to be able to use an attack that could move the party. However, you do make a good point for when probability allows that eventuallity. To make it ideal, I think it would need to add some powers/items that reduce forced movement.

I believe I mentioned that ideally this would be in a corner of the room, so two wizards can thunderwave out on their turns and two can have thunderwave as readied actions making it extremely unapproachable. It can also free up a wizard or two from wall duty, letting them be able to do something else like make difficult terrain or visions of avarice and to be able to patch up the wall if somebody decides to use Dispel Magic.

And when the bad guys have an attack that creates a zone? Imagine this scenario and the put a stinking cloud in your corner. Your whole schtick is erased and your wizards are in a lot of trouble.

deathpigeon
2010-02-23, 10:46 PM
Goliath Rageblood Barbarian
Gnome Infernal Warlock
Longtooth Shifter Battlerager Fighter
Githyanki Staff Wizard (I might change this to Githzerai or Elf Seeker once PHB3 comes out)
Dwarf Protecting Shaman
Elven Archer Ranger

(Additional Races coming soon)

Juk
2010-02-23, 11:19 PM
clearly the revenant beast master is a strong candidate to last forever in the "attrition" party though it's admittedly pretty broken as a concept.

At level 5 a party with 1-2 wizards, 2-3 clerics and either a striker or a defender might last nearly indefinitely with consecrated grounds, and flaming sphere/stinking cloud. It's not the undead can't die lock but barring stuns to the clerics you have unlimited hp's from consecrated ground (maybe toss in a temp HP barbarian as the 5th member to do some damage) and the wizard or wizards can put up sustainable zones of damage.

In the scenario where you have endless waves being sent against the party at set intervals this group might do better than any other especially as they can achieve near infinite survival at level 5 and can reliably reduce each wave to ashes before the next is on the board. It can be broken by stun (though if you have 3 clerics each would need to be stunned at separate times to remove all the potential consecrated grounds). You could possibly add a class or two or magic item or two that give bonus saves as a stunned cleric who gets to make a save prior to his turn might still be able to spend the required minor on his turn.

The barbarian build and ranger build both have potential though I think both will get attrit'd faster than this build. The rangers might do a lot of killing before they get meleed but they will get melee'd and they can't count on a situation where they can attack at range. The barbarians will get worn down by focus fire that over comes a single barbarians thp and gets into the real hp's.

Akal Saris
2010-02-24, 12:24 AM
On the subject of double negatives, today I had to participate in a debate for my Foreign Policy of Japan class.

The subject: The U.S.-Japan Alliance will not survive a major crisis, arguing con side (The U.S.-Japan Alliance will not not survive a major crisis).

We're talking about a graduate-level course from one of the top 10 international affairs schools in the nation, and the entire class was confused on the subject.

The pro side (Yes, the U.S.-Japan Alliance will not survive a major crisis) actually had to email my partner and I to confirm that they were arguing pro The U.S.-Japan Alliance will not survive a major crisis, because they weren't entirely sure. During the Q&A with the class, two students referred to my side as the pro side, sparking another round of corrections from everyone.

The lesson here: double negatives are not insignificant at all, and you shouldn't stop paying attention to them.