What Level is Jirix?

[Cisturn]

hey there oots-fans. What level do you think Jirix is? Personally I'd like to think that he's around mid-level. Being that he must be at least fairly powerful considering he has a unique look and a name. But then again O-Chul took him out with one attack. What do you think?

[Charmy]

We don't have much evidence to work with, but we do have a little..

The best I can think of is that he DID survive a hit from Super V's Chain Lightning. Since the primary target was Xykon, Jirix took 10d6 lightning damage (average of 30).

He looked badly injured afterwards, probably with only a handful of hit points left. That is when he was finished off by O-Chul, who struck him with an improvised spear (1d8 + strength bonus). I'd say an average of 5-6 damage there. If it was a critical then it might be higher. Its hard to say, because the giant doesn't always factor in negative hit points, especially for NPCs. (the art suggests that O-chul's blow sent him directly to -10)

So lets say he has 36-40 hit points (generous). Assuming average hit dice (40 / ( (1d8+2) / 2)), that puts him at around level 9. That seems reasonable to me as it likely makes him the highest level demi-human cleric in Azure City next to Redcloak, and thus an appropriate choice for prime minister.

[Math_Mage]

A looser cap on Jirix's upper health can come from his being one-shotted by Fallen Miko, but I don't know enough about Miko's projected strength to make any calculations.

[TriForce]

A looser cap on Jirix's upper health can come from his being one-shotted by Fallen Miko, but I don't know enough about Miko's projected strength to make any calculations.

he was already injured when miko kicked him, so that was hardly one-shotting

[Querzis]

...why the hell would you assume the cleric who was one-shotted by Miko was Jirix? The only reason Redcloak even resurected Jirix this time is because Xykon told him to and you think he resurected a random hobgobelin cleric he didnt even know back then?

[Kish]

...why the hell would you assume the cleric who was one-shotted by Miko was Jirix?
Because Rich says so in Don't Split the Party.

[Querzis]

Because Rich says so in Don't Split the Party.

So Redcloak actually wasted a resurection spell on a random hobgobelin cleric he didnt even know instead of resurecting the general or the hobgobelin that saved his life, that make a lot more sense. Not to mention the fact that if it was him, then Jirix body was barely ten meters away from the explosion, at that point he would almost need a true resurection.

[Math_Mage]

he was already injured when miko kicked him, so that was hardly one-shotting

Ah. Right. Dust-up with the ghosted Sapphire Guard. Forgot about that. IIRC, he only got hit once at that point, though, and unless it was a particularly powerful member of the SG, the damage would not have been great compared to Miko's attack. Barring any other damage he sustained getting there...well, it's just a shot in the dark.

EDIT: Nonetheless, Querzis, word of God has established that that was Jirix.

[Kish]

So Redcloak actually wasted a resurection spell on a random hobgobelin cleric he didnt even know
You're making assumptions. "He hadn't yet mentioned his name on-panel, nor did we see Redcloak get to know him"=/="he was random and Redcloak didn't even know him."

What is a fact is: Yes, that was Jirix.

[Snake-Aes]

Two Resurrections, and he also got oneshot by O-chul with an improvised spear. How much damage would it do, 1d6 + 5 * 3? I don't think Jirix is quite a high level character at all... especially not after dieing twice.

[Math_Mage]

Two Resurrections, and he also got oneshot by O-chul with an improvised spear. How much damage would it do, 1d6 + 5 * 3? I don't think Jirix is quite a high level character at all... especially not after dieing twice.

As pointed out, O-Chul was just finishing the job V's Chain Lightning started. See Charmy's analysis.

[Snake-Aes]

As pointed out, O-Chul was just finishing the job V's Chain Lightning started. See Charmy's analysis.

Aaah true, I forgot about the chain lightning. Jirix really should learn he's never supposed to survive a second shot... Where are all the healing spells? ;)
That puts him reasonably near having a hundred hit points, so he's not unlikely near 10 or 12.

[factotum]

That puts him reasonably near having a hundred hit points, so he's not unlikely near 10 or 12.

No, because Jirix was not the primary target of the Chain Lightning and therefore would have taken less damage. Also, a cleric with 100 hit points would be a lot higher than level 10 unless they had O-Chul levels of Constitution--average hit points per level for a cleric is 4.5, so without Con modifiers they'd have to be epic level to have that many HP!

[Snake-Aes]

No, because Jirix was not the primary target of the Chain Lightning and therefore would have taken less damage. Also, a cleric with 100 hit points would be a lot higher than level 10 unless they had O-Chul levels of Constitution--average hit points per level for a cleric is 4.5, so without Con modifiers they'd have to be epic level to have that many HP!

excuse me as i spank a certain level 12 cleric into submission...
give him 10 anyway, less hp per dice and less chain damage.

[Optimystik]

So Redcloak actually wasted a resurection spell on a random hobgobelin cleric he didnt even know instead of resurecting the general or the hobgobelin that saved his life, that make a lot more sense.

The trouble with raising people who are squashed under boulders, is that they tend to still be under boulders when they return to life.

[Orzel]

Jirix is about a tier under the OotS like Hinjo. That's about somewhere between level 9-12.

[Neopolis]

The trouble with raising people who are squashed under boulders, is that they tend to still be under boulders when they return to life.
Then move the boulder.

[Ancalagon]

So Redcloak actually wasted a resurection spell on a random hobgobelin cleric he didnt even know

Who told you that?

In fact, I find it highly unlikely that Redcloak would not know one of the highest level clerics of his army. Mobilising the minions and marching to Azure City took time.
Also, Redcloak is right the guy who figures out who is leading the people and what they can do. Can they be trusted? Are they able?

Really... Redcloak "not knowing" Jirix at that point really doesn't seem to be an option. And who told you Jirix was the only cleric or other "high level" Goblin Redcloak brought back? Maybe he brought back "all he could" (based on the state of the individual body and the available diamonds)?

[Ancalagon]

Then move the boulder.

People who lie below a collapsed castle usually tend to... hum... not resemble people at all anymore. And that does not take into account it might take weeks to clear the rubble.
Depending on how the castle came down in that particular place, they might not have cleared it at all...

[zoobob9]

wiat, im new to 3.5, but dont you take an xp loss when your ressurected?

and, jirix may have leverled up between ressurection and becomeing prime minister. maybe through fighting other hobbos for xykon's amusement. this is all speculation.

[slayerx]

Who told you that?

In fact, I find it highly unlikely that Redcloak would not know one of the highest level clerics of his army. Mobilising the minions and marching to Azure City took time.
Also, Redcloak is right the guy who figures out who is leading the people and what they can do. Can they be trusted? Are they able?

Really... Redcloak "not knowing" Jirix at that point really doesn't seem to be an option. And who told you Jirix was the only cleric or other "high level" Goblin Redcloak brought back? Maybe he brought back "all he could" (based on the state of the individual body and the available diamonds)?
Well you have to remember that redcloak originally didn't care about the hobgoblins. He treated them like nothing more than bait and canon fodder... this would lead him to not caring about their names and what not. He wouldn't care about how well the hobgoblins were lead so long as the leaders could get the soldiers from point A to point B on command since he did not care about how many of them died... And i don't think RC had enough time with them after he did start caring about them to start learning names

however i do see it possible for him to raise a random nameless cleric after the fight... by that point he had begun to care and as such would use his powers to raise back to life as many clerics as he could so that they could heal the wounded.

[Gift Jeraff]

wiat, im new to 3.5, but dont you take an xp loss when your ressurected?

and, jirix may have leverled up between ressurection and becomeing prime minister. maybe through fighting other hobbos for xykon's amusement. this is all speculation.

Roleplaying XP! Becoming second-in-command of an army/nation and one of the evil overlord's favorite minions has to be worth something. Also, you wouldn't believe the Challenge Rating on those TPS reports (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html).

[TheBlackShadow]

To the Class and Level Geekery thread!

[Ancalagon]

Well you have to remember that redcloak originally didn't care about the hobgoblins.

Wrong again. At this point, he *did* care. We are after his "Moment of Insight".

[Shale]

Yes, but so soon after it that he wouldn't have had time to get to know individual members of the army yet.

[Ancalagon]

Yes, but so soon after it that he wouldn't have had time to get to know individual members of the army yet.

Soon? We do not know how long it took them to muster the army. We don't know how long exactly they marched.

Even if it's only a week or two the time surely was enough to know
A) Is this guy able (levels)?
B) Is this guy able (mental abilities and planning)?
C) Do I like this guy?

If Redcloak has the spells and diamonds why should he not resurrect one of the most powerful clerics and a guy whom he already has worked with successfully? Jirix' estimation of the situation in the throne room indicates he's actually someone with a "clue".

[Dr.Epic]

Because Rich says so in Don't Split the Party.

This probobly belongs in spoilers.

Also the hobgoblin in black armor and a blue cape in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) strip is Jirix? Why would the giant change his appearance that much?

[Gift Jeraff]

Because back then he was just another hobgoblin cleric. As Rich says in the commentary, he was awarded a position of authority after being brought back from the dead.

[Pyron]

Because back then he was just another hobgoblin cleric. As Rich says in the commentary, he was awarded a position of authority after being brought back from the dead.

Position of authority? Over the cover sheets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) of theTPS reports. :smallyuk:

[Da'Shain]

It does seem rather odd that that was Jirix all the way back then, and Redcloak resurrected him ... especially since he seemed loath to (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) the second time Jirix died. Of course, he could have simply been slow on the uptake and I'm reading too much into it.

[The Pale King]

I know Rich confirmed it, but if that cleric that Miko kills was Jirix, wouldn't his body have been destroyed in the explosion? I highly doubt that Redcloak would use a True Resurrection spell on one random Hobgoblin cleric.

[ClockShock]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html

Apparently it wasn't too stenuous on bodies.

[MRizzle08]

Soon? We do not know how long it took them to muster the army. We don't know how long exactly they marched.

Even if it's only a week or two the time surely was enough to know
A) Is this guy able (levels)?
B) Is this guy able (mental abilities and planning)?
C) Do I like this guy?

If Redcloak has the spells and diamonds why should he not resurrect one of the most powerful clerics and a guy whom he already has worked with successfully? Jirix' estimation of the situation in the throne room indicates he's actually someone with a "clue".

His moment of insight wasn't until the middle of the battle when he was saved from a boulder by a hobgoblin. Meaning the time between he revelation and Jirix' death was in minutes not weeks. I would find it very plausible that at the time Redcloak at had most an inkling of an idea of who Jirix was.

[Studoku]

Because Rich says so in Don't Split the Party.
On which page does it say this? I'm assuming it's in one of the commentaries but I can't find it.

[Dr Bwaa]

I agree with Charmy's analysis, though I think the damage from O-Chul's cage-bar is probably higher: average on 1d8 is 4.5, and O-Chul gets strength-and-a-half for using both hands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), so that's going to be at least 7-8 damage from the "spear," obviously more if he critted.

[Morthis]

I know Rich confirmed it, but if that cleric that Miko kills was Jirix, wouldn't his body have been destroyed in the explosion? I highly doubt that Redcloak would use a True Resurrection spell on one random Hobgoblin cleric.

Even Miko, who was about as close to the explosion as one could be, did not have her body destroyed. Cut in half, sure, but that doesn't matter. RC is definitely capable of casting resurrection, and as long as you have a piece of their body from the time of their death, resurrection is powerful enough.

[slayerx]

Wrong again. At this point, he *did* care. We are after his "Moment of Insight".
you apparently missed the line at the end
"And i don't think RC had enough time with them after he did start caring about them to start learning names"
Helps to read the whole post...

He charged in with a mammoth and made his way directly to the throne room... how much time would he really have to get to know his clerics and various other troops along the way? not to mention that at the point the battle itself, which makes knowing all the details of them less important


Even Miko, who was about as close to the explosion as one could be, did not have her body destroyed. Cut in half, sure, but that doesn't matter. RC is definitely capable of casting resurrection, and as long as you have a piece of their body from the time of their death, resurrection is powerful enough.

True, though it does feel a tad bit unbelievable... namely that what ever was left of Jirix would be buried under rubble or flown to another part of city... not impossible to find, but still a tad unbelievable when i think about it

though it may lend some credence to the theory that RC just raised and resurrected every cleric he could find... afterall, whatever was left of jirix would not be all that recognizable as him... Did RC find his head, recognize him and resurrect him, or did he find the body of an unknown cleric and resurrected that?

[Kish]

On which page does it say this? I'm assuming it's in one of the commentaries but I can't find it.
Opposite strip #541. Fourth paragraph.

[Tass]

The best I can think of is that he DID survive a hit from Super V's Chain Lightning. Since the primary target was Xykon, Jirix took 10d6 lightning damage (average of 30).

It seems nobody have pointed this out yet. 10d6 is an average of 35 not 30
/nitpick

[Gandariel]

probably O-Chul hit him with a critical, since he KOd him...
so he was anyway at low hitpoints after the 35 from Chain Lightning...

though i don't understand why didn't he cure after the lightning...

[Shale]

He might not have had any cure spells left. The fight happens late at night, and it's mentioned that the spellcasters are running low on magic just from having cast spells normally that day. Plus, since Jirix is evil, he would not be able to spontaneously cast a healing spell - he would have to have one prepared.

[megabyter5]

*clears throat*

Xykon instructed Redcloak to Raise Jirix, but Jirix states it was a Resurrection. So, did he lose a level coming back or not?

[Optimystik]

*clears throat*

Xykon instructed Redcloak to Raise Jirix, but Jirix states it was a Resurrection. So, did he lose a level coming back or not?

You lose a level under both. It's only True Resurrection that doesn't.

[Ancalagon]

His moment of insight wasn't until the middle of the battle when he was saved from a boulder by a hobgoblin.Meaning the time between he revelation and Jirix' death was in minutes not weeks.

Does not matter. "Y is 4 minutes after X" and "Y is 4 months after X" does not change the truth that "Y is after X". In addition to the fact that a "Moment of Insight" means a really re-defining moment where you are struck with a sudden realisation and new insight means that you actually HAVE that new insight right after this moment. If you need 4 weeks of comtemplation, it was not a Moment of Insight. ;)


I would find it very plausible that at the time Redcloak at had most an inkling of an idea of who Jirix was.

Yeah, as if Redcloak would go to war without knowing anything about his leaders... sure. We talk about a guy who colour-codes his possible targets and gates and who tortures his prisoner on 2:09 (and not 2:00 or 2:20) just because he wrote 2:09 on his schedule.
How likely is it that he did not "estimate his options" and filled excel-sheets with assumed leadership-scores of his leaders... really... I don't see Redcloak being so sloppy.
He might not have liked Jirix and the others but he surely knew who they were.

[TheGrimace]

Does not matter. "Y is 4 minutes after X" and "Y is 4 months after X" does not change the truth that "Y is after X". In addition to the fact that a "Moment of Insight" means a really re-defining moment where you are struck with a sudden realisation and new insight means that you actually HAVE that new insight right after this moment. If you need 4 weeks of comtemplation, it was not a Moment of Insight. ;)

This part I have to disagree with


Yeah, as if Redcloak would go to war without knowing anything about his leaders... sure. We talk about a guy who colour-codes his possible targets and gates and who tortures his prisoner on 2:09 (and not 2:00 or 2:20) just because he wrote 2:09 on his schedule.
How likely is it that he did not "estimate his options" and filled excel-sheets with assumed leadership-scores of his leaders... really... I don't see Redcloak being so sloppy.
He might not have liked Jirix and the others but he surely knew who they were.

This part I totally agree with, and makes part A notably less important.

but, on with part A anyway I suppose.

The idea is that the Moment of Insight would lead Red Cloak to care about the information, and therefore seek it. However, since he did not care about the information, he had not sought it (except of course for the reasons discussed in your second paragraph).

Suddenly caring about something does not give you knowledge you didn't have before (except in supernatural cases)

[Ancalagon]

This part I have to disagree with


I say he had the information before he cared. As the information is actually what he needs to know to plan the batte as good as possible (that's what Redcloak would do).
He does not care about the persons or what happens to them. But he does care about the information what those persons can do. Thus, he knew them before.

Imagining a Redcloak who has no clue at all about what power the Hobgoblins bring to the fight and who commands what is totally unbelievable.
He did not care about the Hobgoblins but it seems he knew they general quite well.

Suggestion: Explain a) how Redcloak could plan such an attack without knowing his own force and the commanders (clerics) and b) why a character as Redcloak deliberatly(!) would miss such important an crucial information and I might agree with you.
I also find it unlikely he "knew the information" but "missed the names". Redcloak is smart, so he won't have a problem with remembering names. Why would he do that?
Because names make things easier. If you plan your battle, you can keep saying "That guy in the Blue cloak who likes Peanut Butter is going to lead Units 7 to 12 in the west and that guy in the Blue Cloak that is sighly torn will..." instead you could talk about "Jirix and Jorax". Easier, faster, more efficient -> Redcloak.
Him not caring how many hobgoblins will die is an entirely different matter.