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View Full Version : What is the best LA 0 Template ?



Grifthin
2010-02-15, 04:51 AM
Well just what the title says - Which is the best template you can get with LA 0 ?

Sir Homeslice
2010-02-15, 04:56 AM
Necropolitan's pretty boss.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 04:57 AM
Necropolitan's pretty boss.
Doesn't give an LA, but does have a significant xp penalty associated. With LA buyoff, that's effectively the same thing.


Magic-Blooded is actually LA+0, and useful for many.

Volthawk
2010-02-15, 05:21 AM
Amphibious isn't bad. You gain the Aquatic subtype, a swim speed, become able to breathe underwater and above water and the usual swim bonuses, all for -2 DEX.

Orran
2010-02-15, 06:47 AM
I second magic blooded, +2 cha, -2 wis, and a couple of spell like abilities. Works well for any cha based class.

Dragonborn should get a mention too, the real advantage of it is eliminating certain penalties from the base race. Dragonborn Water-Orc is the most common use of this.

Darrin
2010-02-15, 06:53 AM
Primordial Giant, Secrets of Xendrik p. 81. Str -4, Con -2, Int +4, Cha +4. Invisibility, invisibility purge, or levitate at will. Also makes warlock a favored class.

Greymane
2010-02-15, 07:05 AM
Primordial Giant, Secrets of Xendrik p. 81. Str -4, Con -2, Int +4, Cha +4. Invisibility, invisibility purge, or levitate at will. Also makes warlock a favored class.

Whoa. What's the fluff of that template? That sounds... crazy for a giant.

Edit: I should probably contribute, but not really: +1 for Magic-Blooded. Then again, I prefer to pump my charisma.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 08:18 AM
Ghost.

Necropolitan also isn't bad, considering you'll make up the xp lost over time.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 08:55 AM
Ghost.

Which one?

paddyfool
2010-02-15, 09:01 AM
DM's girlfriend.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 09:03 AM
Primordial Giant, Secrets of Xendrik p. 81. Str -4, Con -2, Int +4, Cha +4. Invisibility, invisibility purge, or levitate at will. Also makes warlock a favored class.

Is there a LA0 giant we can add that onto? For extra craziness?

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 09:09 AM
DM's girlfriend.

And /thread

Melamoto
2010-02-15, 09:16 AM
Which one?
I'd assume the one from Ghostwalk, although it's pretty unique to the campaign setting, which is 3.0.

Optimystik
2010-02-15, 09:25 AM
I'd assume the one from Ghostwalk, although it's pretty unique to the campaign setting, which is 3.0.

The one from Ghostwalk is +1 LA, which is why I wasn't sure.

(Although that's much better than the +5 LA one in the SRD.)

Darrin
2010-02-15, 10:25 AM
Is there a LA0 giant we can add that onto? For extra craziness?

Been looking, but haven't found one yet. Half-giant (XPH) or Eneko (Secrets of Sarlona) are both LA +1, not too shabby with LA buyoff.

I was hoping FR might have something tucked away somewhere, but the best I can find is Taer in Unapproachable East, 2 racial HD, LA +1.

If you could increase the size of a Warforged to Large and then applied the Incarnate Construct template, the creature's type would change to giant.

Soranar
2010-02-15, 11:44 AM
dragonborn of bahamut

-2 dex, +2 con and a roleplay requirement for flight, a breath weapon or immunities is pretty decent

Starscream
2010-02-15, 11:54 AM
Another vote for Dragonborn here.

Necropolitan is great if you are someone who can wield negative energy like a DN or evil cleric.

paddyfool
2010-02-15, 11:57 AM
Loredrake and spellhoarding are pretty good for dragons.

Heliomance
2010-02-15, 12:06 PM
Any decent +2 template and Incarnate Construct, as a Warforged.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 12:07 PM
im playing a wizard and im debating taking half giant and primordial giant...

Mongoose87
2010-02-15, 12:11 PM
DM's girlfriend.

DM's wife.

Soranar
2010-02-15, 12:12 PM
DM's wife.

DM's daughter

Greenish
2010-02-15, 12:17 PM
im playing a wizard and im debating taking half giant and primordial giant...+4 int with -2 dex for 1 LA doesn't seem too amazing, even with a fancy SLA, though the mental image sure is awesome.

Rawr, I'm the big, burly wizard!

CTLC
2010-02-15, 12:17 PM
DM's daughter

DM No, seriously, actually being the DM

ye, the image was teh best part.

Mongoose87
2010-02-15, 12:28 PM
DM's daughter

:smallconfused: People love saying no to their children.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 12:37 PM
Been looking, but haven't found one yet. Half-giant (XPH) or Eneko (Secrets of Sarlona) are both LA +1, not too shabby with LA buyoff.

I was hoping FR might have something tucked away somewhere, but the best I can find is Taer in Unapproachable East, 2 racial HD, LA +1.

If you could increase the size of a Warforged to Large and then applied the Incarnate Construct template, the creature's type would change to giant.

If we're mentioning LA +1 templates with buyoff, White Dragonspawn from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting is ridiculously overpowered.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 12:38 PM
what does white dragonlance do?
and which book is dragonborn of bahamut from, for the life of me i cannot remember?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 12:43 PM
what does white dragonlance do?Flight, hefty NA, breath weapon (?) and a couple levels of sorcerer casting, if memory serves. It will also cause your DM to reach for Encyclopedia Britannica, since PHB is too light and soft.

and which book is dragonborn of bahamut from, for the life of me i cannot remember?Offhand, Races of Dragon.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 12:47 PM
DM's girlfriend.

No, Dm's girlfriend is a prestige class.

http://rustyandco.com/?p=103

see?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 12:50 PM
what does white dragonlance do?
and which book is dragonborn of bahamut from, for the life of me i cannot remember?

White Dragonspawn gives you:

Monstrous Humanoid type
Cold subtype
+7 natural armour (non-stacking)
Flight at twice land speed (average)
Bite and two claws for 1d4 (if Medium-size, 1d3 if Small)
Breath weapon for 2d6 cold every 2d4 rounds, DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod
Death Throes: Everyone within 10 feet takes 1d6 cold, Reflex half
A free level of sorcerer casting
Low-light vision
Darkvision 30ft
+2 Dex
+2 Con
Access to dragon feats.

See what I mean about ridiculous?

Dragonborn of Bahamut is indeed from Races of the Dragon.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 12:52 PM
White Dragonspawn gives you:

Monstrous Humanoid type
Cold subtype
+7 natural armour (non-stacking)
Flight at twice land speed (average)
Bite and two claws for 1d4 (if Medium-size, 1d3 if Small)
Breath weapon for 2d6 cold every 2d4 rounds, DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Con mod
Death Throes: Everyone within 10 feet takes 1d6 cold, Reflex half
A free level of sorcerer casting
Low-light vision
Darkvision 30ft
+2 Dex
+2 Con
Access to dragon feats.

See what I mean about ridiculous?

There was something, a ridiculous drawback, that I can't remember. Care to point it out?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 12:54 PM
There was something, a ridiculous drawback, that I can't remember. Care to point it out?Having to worship and serve a white dragon?

Eloel
2010-02-15, 12:57 PM
Having to worship and serve a white dragon?

Was that 'any' white dragon? Like, if you face a white dragon, you're screwed?

Orran
2010-02-15, 12:59 PM
White dragonspawn gives +2 dex and +2 con as well. Changes NA to +7 and gives a fly speed of double land speed. There are also some breath weapon and death throes effects, but they're minor. The white dragon one is the most commonly used because it is LA +1, compared to +2-4 for the others. I'm not sure if you can apply it to a dragonwrought kobold, since it requires the humanoid or monstrous humanoid type, and dragonwrought changes type to dragon. Perhaps since dragonwrought is applied via feat it affects things after race. Any ruling on this?

Magic blooded white dragonspawn dragonwrought desert kobold just sounds awesome.

Edit: ninjaed

Prime32
2010-02-15, 01:00 PM
Unseelie Fey is pretty overpowered, but it doesn't have an LA listed in the template itself (the "LA: +0" entry on the example monster was probably an editing mistake)

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:01 PM
Hum, so if i take dragonborn of bahamut, and im human i lose everything human gives me. So, if i pick something with lots of ability adjustments and then take, thats better right?

also, dragonspawn is +1 LA?!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:02 PM
There was something, a ridiculous drawback, that I can't remember. Care to point it out?

No, there isn't. Not that I can see, anyway. There is the line about the dragonspawn being loyal servants of the dragon that created them - but it immediately follows this by saying that "some have been known to retain their free will".

You do take 50% more damage from fire, though (but you're totally immune to cold, even Piercing Cold, so it kinda evens out).

@Orran: Technically, you can be dragonwrought and white dragonspawn, but no sane DM would allow it since your backstory will necessarily contradict itself.

@CTLC: Yes. +1 LA. Ridiculous, isn't it.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 01:04 PM
Hum, so if i take dragonborn of bahamut, and im human i lose everything human gives me. So, if i pick something with lots of ability adjustments and then take, thats better right?


Human is still pretty good since you get an extra feat and extra skill points before you become a Dragonborn.

Greenish
2010-02-15, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure if you can apply it to a dragonwrought kobold, since it requires the humanoid or monstrous humanoid type, and dragonwrought changes type to dragon. Perhaps since dragonwrought is applied via feat it affects things after race. Any ruling on this?There was a thread about that some time ago, and the general consensus is that it works doesn't work works, too no it doesn't... :smalleek:

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:05 PM
Human is still pretty good since you get an extra feat and extra skill points before you become a Dragonborn.

Im starting the game as a dragonborn though.

Greenish
2010-02-15, 01:07 PM
Hum, so if i take dragonborn of bahamut, and im human i lose everything human gives me. So, if i pick something with lots of ability adjustments and then take, thats better right?Yeah. Water orc (UA: +4 str, +2 con, -2 int, wis, cha) was already mentioned, and Dragonborn Buomman lets you bypass the racial vow of silence.

[Edit]: Wouldn't one lose the extra human feat upon becoming a Dragonborn?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:10 PM
There was a thread about that some time ago, and the general consensus is that it works doesn't work works, too no it doesn't... :smalleek:

Mechanically, it works, but your backstory gets Time Paradoxed and you get a lump on your head from the DMG.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:11 PM
doesnt dragonborn keep those mental penalties though?

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 01:12 PM
doesnt dragonborn keep those mental penalties though?

yes.

I don't think you lose the feat when you become a dragonborn. Otherwise you'd also lose all the skill points you had up until that point too.

Akal Saris
2010-02-15, 01:13 PM
I guess I like necropolitan best. Since you pay 1 LA of experience, you'll eventually make it up due to level difference in exp.

Greenish
2010-02-15, 01:13 PM
doesnt dragonborn keep those mental penalties though?Yes. Still, it's +4 str, +4 con for +0 LA. The mileage naturally varies by your class.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:14 PM
yes.

I don't think you lose the feat when you become a dragonborn. Otherwise you'd also lose all the skill points you had up until that point too.

It says that you lose exactly that, all skill points and feats from the race are gone.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:14 PM
yes.

I don't think you lose the feat when you become a dragonborn. Otherwise you'd also lose all the skill points you had up until that point too.

Skill points are explicitly non-retroactive, though. Feats aren't.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:17 PM
Skill points are explicitly non-retroactive, though. Feats aren't.

I apologize, you lose skill bonuses
i pulled my daily stupid!

Dragonborn. warforged. allowed?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 01:21 PM
Dragonborn. warforged. allowed?Bahamut ain't picky.

[Edit]: Yes he is. See below.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-15, 01:27 PM
Yes, that's one of the things called out as being lost upon transforming.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:28 PM
I apologize, you lose skill bonuses
i pulled my daily stupid!

Actually, I was wrong, you do lose the bonus skill points.


Dragonborn. warforged. allowed?

No.


The dragonborn children of Bahamut are a unique
race in that they are not born; they are reborn. Each
one enters the world as a half ling, an elf, a human, or
a member of some other humanoid race with all that
race’s propensities and traits.


WARFORGED RACIAL TRAITS
• Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged are constructs
with the living construct subtype.

Also, elves can't become dragonborn because they can't sleep.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:31 PM
Actually, I was wrong, you do lose the bonus skill points.



No.

poo.
Although my daily stupid has been revoked?

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 01:34 PM
So by becoming a dragonborn you lose expertise in everything you were good at before? That makes absolutely no sense and breaks verisimilitude.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:35 PM
poo.
Although my daily stupid has been revoked?

It has.

Kinda ridiculous that elves can't become dragonborn, eh?

@Kyuubi: You're being reborn, it's only natural that your mind and muscle memory change a bit.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 01:35 PM
Kinda ridiculous that elves can't become dragonborn, eh?

Wait what? Elves CAN become dragonborn

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:36 PM
Wait what? Elves CAN become dragonborn

The Rite of Rebirth requires 24 hours of sleep. Elves cannot sleep.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:37 PM
The Rite of Rebirth requires 24 hours of sleep. Elves cannot sleep.

ahahahah, this made me laugh out loud. Thats ridiculous. Just, silly.

Non magical sleep potion?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:44 PM
ahahahah, this made me laugh out loud. Thats ridiculous. Just, silly.

I know, so did I upon realising it. It's obviously not intentional, since they even mention dragonborn who started as elves, but elves cannot complete that rite.


Non magical sleep potion?

Don't think they exist. You could be rendered unconscious by drow poison, but that's not sleep.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 01:46 PM
I know, so did I upon realising it. It's obviously not intentional, since they even mention dragonborn who started as elves, but elves cannot complete that rite.



Don't think they exist. You could be rendered unconscious by drow poison, but that's not sleep.

Maybe elves can sleep, but inly if nobody is looking at them...

Edit: Dragonborn. Catfolk.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 01:49 PM
Maybe elves can sleep, but inly if nobody is looking at them...


Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do.


Edit: Dragonborn. Catfolk.

I don't get it.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 02:05 PM
Loredrake and spellhoarding are pretty good for dragons.

or for kobolds...
speaking of, kobold is a +0 LA race that you can do some really crazy things with (all broken though, so don't expect that to fly)

speaking of flying. How come nobody mentioned raptoran?
free non magical flight. LA+0

Oh, and an often unappreciated race... elves make for boss rogues.

An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.

And if you want to play a generalist, then elven generalist is the way to go. (plus the bow proficiency is nice for low level wizards, as bows are better than crossbows)

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:09 PM
@Kyuubi: You're being reborn, it's only natural that your mind and muscle memory change a bit.

But now I have to make an entirely new character because now my Paladin is going to be severely gimped since I chose human as my base race and I want this character to become a dragonborn eventually.

Soranar
2010-02-15, 02:11 PM
or for kobolds...
speaking of, kobold is a +0 LA race that you can do some really crazy things with (all broken though, so don't expect that to fly)

speaking of flying. How come nobody mentioned raptoran?
free non magical flight. LA+0

Oh, and an often unappreciated race... elves make for boss rogues.


And if you want to play a generalist, then elven generalist is the way to go. (plus the bow proficiency is nice for low level wizards, as bows are better than crossbows)

Because the thread is about LA +0 templates, not races

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:13 PM
But now I have to make an entirely new character because now my Paladin is going to be severely gimped since I chose human as my base race and I want this character to become a dragonborn eventually.

No, you don't have to make an entirely new character. But you do lose HD+3 skill points and a feat.

Greenish
2010-02-15, 02:15 PM
But now I have to make an entirely new character because now my Paladin is going to be severely gimped since I chose human as my base race and I want this character to become a dragonborn eventually.Such is life DnD. Not all options are equal.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 02:15 PM
Because the thread is about LA +0 templates, not races

oops, I thought it was +0 LA races... thanks for the correction

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:15 PM
No, you don't have to make an entirely new character. But you do lose HD+3 skill points and a feat.

exactly my point. If I knew I was going to lose all that I wouldn't have made a human in the first place.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:16 PM
exactly my point. If I knew I was going to lose all that I wouldn't have made a human in the first place.

Sucks to be you, you should have read the rules spelled out for you?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 02:17 PM
exactly my point. If I knew I was going to lose all that I wouldn't have made a human in the first place.Everything is subject to GM houseruling. Ask nicely.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:21 PM
actually I don't lose the bonus feat at least according to the rules. Since it's a prerequisite for another feat I have according to the rules I can't lose it.

still, losing the skill points sucks.

sonofzeal
2010-02-15, 02:22 PM
actually I don't lose the bonus feat at least according to the rules. Since it's a prerequisite for another feat I have according to the rules I can't lose it.
Unless there's a specific exception in play here, what happens is you lose both. Yeah, sucks.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:23 PM
Unless there's a specific exception in play here, what happens is you lose both. Yeah, sucks.

says so explicitly in the rules in "races of the dragon"

Heliomance
2010-02-15, 02:23 PM
No, there isn't. Not that I can see, anyway. There is the line about the dragonspawn being loyal servants of the dragon that created them - but it immediately follows this by saying that "some have been known to retain their free will".


Another source revisited white dragonspawn. The free-willed ones have LA +3. The LA +1 ones are thralls and not really suitable for PCs.

Greenish
2010-02-15, 02:24 PM
actually I don't lose the bonus feat at least according to the rules. Since it's a prerequisite for another feat I have according to the rules I can't lose it.As far as I know, yes you can. The feat whose prerequisites you no longer meet stops working too. :smallamused:

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:25 PM
As far as I know, yes you can. The feat whose prerequisites you no longer meet stops working too. :smallamused:

Races of the dragon specifically says I keep it if it's a qualifier for another feat I have.:smallamused:

Greenish
2010-02-15, 02:27 PM
Races of the dragon specifically says I keep it if it's a qualifier for another feat I have.:smallamused:Interesting. Humans might be a decent race for Dragonborn, then.

[Edit]: I think I'll just be quiet from now on... :smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:29 PM
Races of the dragon specifically says I keep it if it's a qualifier for another feat I have.:smallamused:


If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such
as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost,
so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.

You have to lose a feat, but you get to choose which one, with the exception that you can't choose to lose a feat that's a prerequisite for another. It is impossible for you to have no feats that aren't prerequisites for another feat.

So no, you're completely wrong.

@Greenish: No, they aren't. Kyuubi's claiming an exception that doesn't exist.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 02:30 PM
Races of the dragon specifically says I keep it if it's a qualifier for another feat I have.:smallamused:


If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such
as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost,
so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.

You still lose a feat, just not that feat. Maybe give away one of your Weapon Proficiency feats?

Edit: Ninja with exact same quotes. *sigh*

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:32 PM
I don't lose the human bonus feat though.

but yeah. new character time.

and I don't have any weapon proficiency feats.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:33 PM
I don't lose the human bonus feat though.

but yeah. new character time.

and I don't have any weapon proficiency feats.

You do lose a feat, just not necessarily the one you picked then.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 02:34 PM
I don't lose the human bonus feat though.

but yeah. new character time.

and I don't have any weapon proficiency feats.

I thought you were a paladin?
Paladins get Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency that you can lose.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:38 PM
I thought you were a paladin?
Paladins get Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency that you can lose.

Not... really. You don't have those feats. You're proficient with the weapons and armour without needing the feats.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-15, 02:38 PM
The Rite of Rebirth requires 24 hours of sleep. Elves cannot sleep.

Wouldn't trancing count? It's good enough for pretty much everything else that requires sleep.

Or am I the only one who took "24 hours of sleep" to mean "24 hours of sleep or racial equivalent"?


Races of the dragon specifically says I keep it if it's a qualifier for another feat I have.:smallamused:

It doesn't say you keep it, it says you can't lose it. You choose which feat you lose, but you can't choose to lose a feat that's a prerequisite for another one you have.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:43 PM
Wouldn't trancing count? It's good enough for pretty much everything else that requires sleep.

Or am I the only one who took "24 hours of sleep" to mean "24 hours of sleep or racial equivalent"?



It doesn't say you keep it, it says you can't lose it. You choose which feat you lose, but you can't choose to lose a feat that's a prerequisite for another one you have.

Your avatar. The irony.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:44 PM
yes I'm aware.

which is why I'm making a new character that's actually a viable dragonborn race.

Eloel
2010-02-15, 02:45 PM
Not... really. You don't have those feats. You're proficient with the weapons and armour without needing the feats.

You have those feats, as much as elves have their own proficiency feats. See any Chaos Shuffle thread for details.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 02:46 PM
You have those feats, as much as elves have their own proficiency feats. See any Chaos Shuffle thread for details.

This would at least help. I'd retrain the shield proficiency though since I'm a charging Paladin not a sword and board.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 02:52 PM
dragonborn catfolk still looks decent.
basically good ability mods and increased speed plus dragonborn = nice.
How does the dragonborn aging work though?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 02:53 PM
You have those feats, as much as elves have their own proficiency feats. See any Chaos Shuffle thread for details.


Class Features: Special characteristics of the class. When applicable, this section also mentions restrictions and disadvantages of the class. Class features include some or all of the following.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: This section details which weapons and armour types the character is proficient with. Regardless of training, cumbersome armour interferes with certain skills (such as Climb) and with the casting of most arcane spells. Characters can become proficient with other weapon or armour types by acquiring the appropriate Armour Proficiency (light, medium, heavy), Shield Proficiency, and Weapon Proficiency (exotic, martial, or simple) feats. (See Chapter 5: Feats)

Being proficient with something doesn't mean you have the proficiency feat (note how it says "other"). If you don't have the proficiency feat, you can't give it up. If I've just debunked threads worth of cheese, so be it.

@Kyuubi: You can't retrain feats you don't have, and you don't have proficiency feats unless you've bought them.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-15, 02:57 PM
Your avatar. The irony.

Indeed. :smallredface: :smallbiggrin:

Eloel
2010-02-15, 02:59 PM
Searched Chaos Shuffle on google, like I said.
First post on first search result;

Using the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos to change one feat to another. It cheesy in that you can use it on feats like elven racial proficiencies.

I could find where this is justified, but it would take more time ;)

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:00 PM
Searched Chaos Shuffle on google, like I said.
First post on first search result;

I could find where this is justified, but it would take more time ;)

And barring something I haven't read in the Rules Compendium or one of the Monster Manuals, it's wishful thinking and wrong.

EDIT: You can use it on elven proficiencies, because they specifically do give you the feat. Not on class proficiencies.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 03:04 PM
@Kyuubi: You can't retrain feats you don't have, and you don't have proficiency feats unless you've bought them.

then there's no point in continuing to play this character.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:08 PM
then there's no point in continuing to play this character.

Yes there is, if you care about roleplaying.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 03:17 PM
Yes there is, if you care about roleplaying.

I do. Which is why I want to become a Dragonborn and also why I need the skill points I have. Half the skillpoints I have I've put in skills purely for roleplay purposes.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:18 PM
I do. Which is why I want to become a Dragonborn and also why I need the skill points I have. Half the skillpoints I have I've put in skills purely for roleplay purposes.

But why is there no point in continuing to play them just because some mechanics don't work your way?

CTLC
2010-02-15, 03:20 PM
what is unseelie fey from?
if i understand it has some ability mods that even out and a few slas?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 03:20 PM
But why is there no point in continuing to play them just because some mechanics don't work your way?You need maxed Craft: Stories, Profession: Roleplayer and Know: Character History or you can't Roleplay, doh.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:23 PM
You need maxed Craft: Stories, Profession: Roleplayer and Know: Character History or you can't Roleplay, doh.

Ha.

Incidentally, is your screen name a reference to the Melnorme?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 03:25 PM
Incidentally, is your screen name a reference to the Melnorme?If it is, it's entirely subconscious, since I have no idea what The Melnorme is/are.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 03:25 PM
Is it an LA +0 template?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:27 PM
If it is, it's entirely subconscious, since I have no idea what The Melnorme is/are.

They're an alien race in Star Control 2. The first one you run into introduces himself (or herself) as "Trade Master Greenish".

Greenish
2010-02-15, 03:28 PM
Is it an LA +0 template? http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf

Page 4.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 03:33 PM
But why is there no point in continuing to play them just because some mechanics don't work your way?

Because the reason I chose human is For the mechanics. every other race I wanted to play either had too much LA (half dragon) penalized me for being one while being a Paladin, or the campaign didn't allow it (goblin, Hobgoblin, Tiefling) Which also applies to the too much LA thing.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:34 PM
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf

Page 4.

That's a pretty screwed-up template, having to roll for the effects and all.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 03:35 PM
I know, so did I upon realising it. It's obviously not intentional, since they even mention dragonborn who started as elves, but elves cannot complete that rite.



Don't think they exist. You could be rendered unconscious by drow poison, but that's not sleep.

Pathfinder elves sleep instead of trance.

faceroll
2010-02-15, 03:37 PM
Loredrake and spellhoarding are pretty good for dragons.

They don't have a listed LA.


Magic blooded white dragonspawn dragonwrought desert kobold just sounds awesome.

Sounds like a mouthful.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:40 PM
Because the reason I chose human is For the mechanics. every other race I wanted to play either had too much LA (half dragon) penalized me for being one while being a Paladin, or the campaign didn't allow it (goblin, Hobgoblin, Tiefling) Which also applies to the too much LA thing.

That doesn't sound very roleplayingish. And it doesn't negate the fact that abandoning a character you've already been playing because of a mechanical quibble is bad roleplaying.

Ravens_cry
2010-02-15, 03:44 PM
Sounds like a mouthful.
Sounds like a paternity suit.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-02-15, 03:51 PM
That doesn't sound very roleplayingish. And it doesn't negate the fact that abandoning a character you've already been playing because of a mechanical quibble is bad roleplaying.

Because abandoning the 'character' when the mechanics of said character fail to support the Character you want to play is bad roleplaying?

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 03:53 PM
That doesn't sound very roleplayingish. And it doesn't negate the fact that abandoning a character you've already been playing because of a mechanical quibble is bad roleplaying.

been playing for one session and if my skill points dissapear then so does my roleplay aspect.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 03:54 PM
Because abandoning the 'character' when the mechanics of said character fail to support the Character you want to play is bad roleplaying?

Yes, actually, it is.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 04:05 PM
Yes, actually, it is.

Not when the mechanics are necesarry for the roleplay.

Overshee
2010-02-15, 04:26 PM
been playing for one session and if my skill points dissapear then so does my roleplay aspect.

OR, if you roleplay your skill loss it becomes an interesting character concept as the character struggles to remember and re-find the knowledge he lost after his transformation...

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 04:47 PM
OR, if you roleplay your skill loss it becomes an interesting character concept as the character struggles to remember and re-find the knowledge he lost after his transformation...

that works except for one thing.

that's not a character I want to play. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Choco
2010-02-15, 05:00 PM
Swarm is a kickass 0LA template

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 05:05 PM
Swarm is a kickass 0LA template

From where?

Ravens_cry
2010-02-15, 05:07 PM
Swarm is a kickass 0LA template
With some intensely strange role playing implications.

Choco
2010-02-15, 05:35 PM
From where?

Swarm-Shifter, page 123 of Libris Mortis

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 05:51 PM
Are there any viable large creatures or templates to make a creature large that doesn't add LA or RHD?

Greenish
2010-02-15, 05:53 PM
Are there any viable large creatures or templates to make a creature large that doesn't add LA or RHD?As far as I know, everything that gives you Large size or Powerful Build have at least +1 LA.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 05:55 PM
that's what I thought. thanks anyway.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 05:56 PM
As far as I know, everything that gives you Large size or Powerful Build have at least +1 LA.

with good reason

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133269
ah, they are talking bout this.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-15, 06:05 PM
with good reason


not when you want to add 1 RHD and 3 LA on top of that.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 06:07 PM
mhm, I was saying that it should atleast have +1la and rhd.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 06:25 PM
Swarm-Shifter, page 123 of Libris Mortis

I thought it was LA-, not LA+0. As in, not for players.

Any way to reduce size? I do so wish to play a small bug man, and have just stumbled across the Thri-Kreen racial levels. I just need to make it smaller...:smallconfused:

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-15, 06:56 PM
I do so wish to play a small bug man, and have just stumbled across the Thri-Kreen racial levels. I just need to make it smaller...:smallconfused:

Dromite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#dromites) is a small insectoid race. Picture here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80489.jpg)

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 07:01 PM
Dromite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#dromites) is a small insectoid race. Picture here. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80489.jpg)

True. But it doesn't have the amount of arms I'm looking for.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 07:04 PM
True. But it doesn't have the amount of arms I'm looking for.

If i sigged quotes...

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-15, 07:06 PM
True. But it doesn't have the amount of arms I'm looking for.

The Insectile template from Savage Species gives four extra arms to the base creature. It can be applied to any giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid. LA +2. So you could go with Insectile Halfling or something.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 07:08 PM
The Insectile template from Savage Species gives four extra arms to the base creature. It can be applied to any giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid. LA +2. So you could go with Insectile Halfling or something.

1. Oh you have got to be kidding me!
2. Template help thread, welcome to this world.
3. Templates to help dragonborn breath weapons? Possible?

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 07:09 PM
The Insectile template from Savage Species gives four extra arms to the base creature. It can be applied to any giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid. LA +2. So you could go with Insectile Halfling or something.

Or Thri-Kreen racial progression, for no LA, and an few evenings hunting for a way to make it small. :smallwink:

Hmm... I may end up going 3rd party to pull this off. Or home brew. but the last time I tried to home brew it was a horrid waste of space :smallfrown:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 08:48 PM
Are there any viable large creatures or templates to make a creature large that doesn't add LA or RHD?

Sort of. There are a couple of feats that give reach (Inhuman Reach, from Lords of Madness, and Deformity (Tall) from Heroes of Horror). Similarly, there are ways to improve your speed.

But the only way I know to become large without LA or RHD is Enlarge Person.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 08:52 PM
Similarly, there are ways to improve your speed.

elaborate?

Volthawk
2010-02-15, 08:53 PM
elaborate?

Shadow creature gives you X1.5 your speed, of the top of my head

CTLC
2010-02-15, 09:02 PM
Shadow creature gives you X1.5 your speed, of the top of my head
Nice!
...
[this is my least favorite part] penalties?

and where is it from?

Volthawk
2010-02-15, 09:08 PM
Nice!
...
[this is my least favorite part] penalties?

and where is it from?

Well, it's +2 LA and you're extraplanar. But you do get a lot of extra abilities and new ones every 4 HD, including plane shift to and from the plane of shadow. It's in Lords of Madness.

Alternatively, Dark, from Tome Of Magic, is similar, but +1LA. You're still extraplanar and you get a flat +10 to speed. It also gets similar abilities to Shadow, just weaker and it never gets the extra abilities from HD.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-15, 09:10 PM
The Dark template is a +1 and among other things, gives +10 ft to all speeds.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-15, 09:24 PM
elaborate?

Initiate of Fharlanghn gives you +10, and there's class features like Barbarian 1.