GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread II

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

If I manage to win without even participating then I am TRULY epic. :P

Oh. :smallredface:

[DracoDei]

Continuing on (and hoping the Djinn will return the favor... sent him a PM).


Fates Gift:
she has let to use the ability should be "yet".
Also, is this BEFORE or AFTER the die is rolled? IE does it work like a luck reroll, or like a really fast and versatile version of taking 20?


Voice of Destiny:
and books no should be "brooks"... and even that may be wrong.


Transcend Mortality:
Always wins initiative, except against deities of higher Divine Rank (in which case initiative is calculated normally). Are you sure you copied that right, seems self-contradictory, since the higher level diety has the same clause...



I also note that you need to fill out or delete the fluff at the end after the last quote from the Lord Warden of the Silent Cage.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Continuing on (and hoping the Djinn will return the favor... sent him a PM).

PM sent. Hope you're okay with my style of critique, Draco. :smallfrown:

As a note to the homebrewers here...if you ask me to critique a class, I'm going to start critiquing the way I like to critique and be critiqued: brutal honesty. I feel that you guys are all good enough homebrewers that you can handle (hopefully) constructivecriticism, and so from here on I'm going to be giving my 100% unabridged opinion of your work...which means that it might be caustic, and possibly harsher than the typical friendly GitP critique. That's just my style. :smalleek:

This also means I'll be critiquing classes on a request basis only, at least in this contest...don't ask me to look over something if you won't be happy seeing it torn apart at the seams (if, of course, the seams are weak).

Also, just because I rip something completely apart doesn't mean it isn't good. :smallwink:

[Hyooz]

Any last-minute PEACHes for the Dreamer? I got some small comments early on, but I'd love a more in-depth look. Brutally honest or not.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Any last-minute PEACHes for the Dreamer? I got some small comments early on, but I'd love a more in-depth look. Brutally honest or not.

I'll try, Hyooz...but first, I have fluff to finish.

[Hyooz]

I'll try, Hyooz...but first, I have fluff to finish.

Don't worry about it, man. Get your stuff done before you even think about doing stuff for lil' ol' me.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And fluff is finished. *whew*

Never have I produced something so...well...epic in such a short time. Here's hoping the class has a nice feel to it. Fluff/mechanics comments and critique are appreciated, but not required.

Hyooz, working on your PEACH now.

[Vaynor]

Any comments/criticisms of me and DaTedinator's classes? I know it's a bit close to the deadline, but any help would be appreciated.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Onyx Dreamer

First off, I like the concept, although the Dream could be expanded on a little more...it's a great idea, but it seems like a few corners were cut where you could have expanded in a truly excellent manner. Specifically, it comes off as to much of a...well...real place, which bothers me.

Permission to snatch/adapt the idea and tinker with it a bit in my own time (credit where credit is due, of course)? I just love the premise...

Class Abilities

The Dream: Nice idea, although the 3-mile radius is a bit small. Perhaps something like 3 miles per class level? I'd like to see this be a little more useful, as the same amount of scouting is just a quick spell or an hour's work away.

Spirit Talker: Again, nice ability, but it lacks a lot of use since you must first fall asleep in the location you're in. I'd suggest a trance of sorts, as otherwise you'll get narcoleptic Dreamers, or parties deciding to just camp out in order to talk to a ghost. That sort of breaks the flow of the game, in my mind.

Sheathed in Darkness: Alright. Perfectly fine ability. Does this affect only attack rolls, or all harmful attacks? Spells? Psionic Powers? Supernatural abilities? It might help to specify.

Dreamer's Curse: I dislike the fact that it just duplicates two existing spells, although I must admit that sleep does fit. That said, I'd like abilities along the lines of Nightmare's Awaken, only with unique effects...summoning nightmare monsters which fight the dreamer in his or her dreams, mind-wrenching visions...things like that. If I wanted eyebite, I'd play a Wizard. The second power also bothers me, for two reasons: firstly, that's a LOT of Con damage for just a touch attack. Secondly, vengeful spirits just don't seem to fit the surreal, dream-like quality of the class. I'd say accursed spirits needs to go.

Lucid Dream: Does that only work when asleep? If so, it's a much less than impressive ability, especially to sit on a level by itself. Fairly flavorful, but something I'd honestly expect to be part and parcel of the Onyx Dream, if you're going to include the ability. I know I wouldn't be especially excited to grab this ability on a level-up.

Onyx Grip: Bleh. Functional and traditional, but I'm missing the dreamy kick the other abilities have.

Waking Dream: Ah. Here we go. Glad you included this.

Dreamer's Eye: ... ... ... Really? A +1-+5 bonus to the DCs of your save-or-suck/dies? I'm afraid I have to veto this, especially with how easy it is to get checks up there. By level 20 I can easily hit the 36, and a +5 DC is just crazy. Additionally, the flat numerical thing eats into the wonderfully delicious dream flavor, and leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.

Lingering Spirits: A standard ability, presented in a tasty manner. Cool.

Onyx Strike: See Onyx Grip.

Improved Lucid Dream: Moderately decent. Does that faster speed carry over as well? And, if it does, does it also carry over to my base speed?

Vengeful Spirits: Not really liking the spirits angle (as it only appears once or twice, aside from the speaking, which I don't really consider the same thing), but the ability is solid. Might be a bit spammable though, considering you can do it every other round to assist a mystery nova, making your already very high DC mysteries even MORE likely to succeed...which suggests that one of these needs to change, or go...or both of them need a change.

Fellow Dreamers: Back to that delicious dream flavor. Yum.

Dream Walker: Another case of just straight-up spell grabbing. Eh...it works, but I find it somewhat lacking. Astral Projection, at least, functions nicely, but I'm less convinced by limited wish. Dream Stride doesn't have daily uses...so cut that clause, which I assume was carried over from the Blood Magus. The power works, but I'd personally like to see insanity or nightmares as a result of a painful exit, rather than straight up damage. The Fortitude save should be 17 + Charisma modifier...the DC that the spell would have, as the power is a mystery. Gotta be careful when converting from class ability to spell/power/invocation/mystery...you'll miss things like you did here.

Dream Melding: Interesting capstone, as it's very DM dependent for when it's really useful. Still, that fits the surreal quality of the class, so I'm all for it staying.

Overall Consensus

A nice concept with hints of delicious flavoring, weakened in spots by some copy-paste magic and a couple of spirits leaking in through cracks. My opinion, of course, but that's what I'm giving you. I think it could be strengthened by a little more tightening of the amazing surrealism it has in a few places, rather than taking the easy way out and giving flat bonuses to attack rolls or spell DCs.

Final Thoughts

A well built class with some serious potential, that wasn't as explored as thoroughly as it could have been. Something I'd definitely play, but would probably alter myself before bringing it to the field. Still, a nice job overall.

[Hyooz]

I am thoroughly impressed, and grateful. Caught a lot I simply hadn't thought about. To work!

EDIT: Also, permission granted. Feel free to do what you with with the idea of the Dream.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Disciple of the Nine

Concept

Umm...demons and devils lend their power to those who fight evil? Seems a bit...well...stupid of the devils, doesn't it? Especially considering I see nothing of conflict or bargains from the devilish side. Slightly disappointed by that, as a great RP hook just flew by overhead, and nobody grabbed it.

Class Features

Malignant Mind: Why is this not a feat and part of the prerequisite? One might think that a Paladin or Cleric would immediately fall upon completing the obviously evil requirement...and most Deities probably wouldn't let them atone for sacrificing an innocent to an archdevil.

Violate Spells: Not bad. Also (I had to check, but it is) useful against evil creatures. Approved. :smallbiggrin:

Diametric Blade: Seems less than stellar. "Congratulations! You can smite your friends now!" Why would you actually want this power? Using it seems a really good way to lose your alignm...*remembers Malignant Mind*. Still, seems a little odd that you can smite your way through a bus full of nuns to slay a demon and still come out smelling like roses...

Body of the Baatezu: ...alright. The mechanics are solid, so it functions. On a tangent, however, I don't approve of the ability, as all but becoming a devil/demon/whatever, complete with the ability to summon them to help you kick ass, doesn't seem to jive well with the whole "in the name of the greater good" thing. There's not even a little cost to the thing! You just waltz in, grab Asmodeus' power, then waltz right back out and attack the gates of Hell itself, and there's nothing he can do to stop you!

Sacrifice: Again, fairly solid mechanics, but another RP hook just went zooming by. Also, by "this expires" you means "Pain points expire." That'll just clarify things a bit.

Overall Consensus

Solid yet somewhat lacking transformational PrC. Nothing really clicked for me, which was a shame, as I kept feeling things wanting to click. I feel the class would have greatly benefited from trading the transformational aspects for some sort of infernal bargain, and then played off the dualities of committing a terrible crime (or multiple terrible crimes) for the benefit of the greater good. The result of that would be a (to me) deeply interesting character caught between two extremes, struggling to keep the demonic powers within him from boiling over and consuming him completely.

As it is, I get a guy who just takes some cool demon horns and then kills some demons without really worrying about why or where his power is coming from, or what this power is costing him. This makes the class feel extremely bland to me, and, to make it worse, it keeps taunting me with these delicious concepts that I feel weren't fully explored. You have a class feature called Sacrifice...but I see no real sacrifice in the class, and that deeply saddens me.

Final Thoughts

Mechanically sound and definitely functional, but it loses a lot by being pretty much only mechanically sound and functional. It feels like there's a spirit in there that's just not getting out.

And, on a final, unrelated note...I was hoping to see a 9 level class and a 7 level class. Ah well. :smallwink:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Supplicant of the Seven

Concept

Solid concept, although fairly obvious. That, however, has never been a problem. Celestia granting powers to a holy warrior? It's been done before, but that's because it's tried and true. Let's see how your take on it holds up.

Class Features

Aura of Good: Appears on the table, but not in the text. Leftover from an edit, perhaps? Either way, it needs to either stay or go, not hang in this limbo.

Blessing of the Archons: Straightforward transformation, although the "every 3 levels" progression stops abruptly right before it's final iteration at level 10, which looks strange. I'd therefore recommend adding a 10th level power to finish this off...perhaps the wings at 7th, and the Aura of Menace at 10th (or a whole new ability at 10th). Also, fix this wording:

A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same supplicant’s aura for 24 hours. She also grows angelic white wings, allowing her to fly at twice her base land speed, with good maneuverability.
As written, a creature who resists or breaks the effect grows angel wings...and I'm pretty sure the Supplicant was supposed to receive those wings. :smalltongue:

To fix this, mention the wings first. Otherwise you'll just have the Supplicant gaining wings when a creature breaks the effect, which will result in a lot of wings after a week or so.

Barachiel's Blade: Not bad. Why the diminishing damage though? 10d6 isn't that much at higher levels, and allowing it to bounce around for the full effect won't hurt you that much, provided you specify a creature may only be struck once per "casting" of the lightning.

Domiel's Ward: Suitably ward-like.

Bonus Domain: Fits. Not much to say here.

Erathaol's Sight: Alright. Again, straight forward abilities that don't break any existing mold.

Pistis Sophia's Peace: See above.

Raziel's Wrath: Little damage bonus. Nothing spectacular.

Sealtiel's Shield: Again...same comments.

Zaphkiel's Gift: And a transformation capstone to top it off.

Overall Consensus

On the plus side, no surprises here. On the negative side...no surprises here. I didn't seen anything that was a real problem (most of the abilities are standard and straightforward), but, on the other hand, all I see is a straight transformation class with spellcasting. Nothing to really write home about. Still, par for course as far as celestial warriors go, and nicely balanced from a mechanics standpoint, if possibly a little underwhelming in terms of general interest. Barachiel's blade was the closest I came to sitting up attentively, and that one more merited a second glance and an appraising look that a leap-out-of-the-seat moment.

Final Thoughts

Solid class. I can't complain, but I wasn't really blown away. The wind may have rustled my hair briefly, but that's about the limit of my excitement reading the class. I feel you may have passed up some good opportunities to have really unique gifts from each archangel in favor of a straight transformation, and lost a lot of interesting potential in the process. It's definitely a choice for those looking for a holy warrior, but just doesn't carry the punch I like to see in a PrC.

[DracoDei]

PM sent. Hope you're okay with my style of critique, Draco. :smallfrown:

As a note to the homebrewers here...if you ask me to critique a class, I'm going to start critiquing the way I like to critique and be critiqued: brutal honesty. I feel that you guys are all good enough homebrewers that you can handle (hopefully) constructivecriticism, and so from here on I'm going to be giving my 100% unabridged opinion of your work...which means that it might be caustic, and possibly harsher than the typical friendly GitP critique. That's just my style. :smalleek:

This also means I'll be critiquing classes on a request basis only, at least in this contest...don't ask me to look over something if you won't be happy seeing it torn apart at the seams (if, of course, the seams are weak).

Also, just because I rip something completely apart doesn't mean it isn't good. :smallwink:

I haven't read it yet, and it is entirely possible it will be a noticeably unpleasant experience (or maybe not, we shall see...). In either case, I wouldn't have it any other way. I have certain principles that I haven't had sufficient opportunity to practice living up to, regarding how I feel I should seek and take criticism.

Will edit in my actual reaction after reading it.

EDIT: Djinn, Djinn, Djinn... my dear Sir, you got me all worried for nothing... that was a well reasoned and politely stated critique. I will make what changes I can, and leave out what my abilities mean that whatever its flaws might be, attempting to fix the those particular areas would only make things worse.

[Vaynor]

Disciple of the Nine

First of all, I really appreciate the commentary. And on a side note, I didn't have much time to do as much fluff as I wanted, and I can tell that it showed. :smallredface:


Concept

Umm...demons and devils lend their power to those who fight evil? Seems a bit...well...stupid of the devils, doesn't it? Especially considering I see nothing of conflict or bargains from the devilish side. Slightly disappointed by that, as a great RP hook just flew by overhead, and nobody grabbed it.

I can't believe I forgot that. Yeah, they have to sell their soul to the devil lords in order to gain their power. I'll definitely add that in. This is the problem with having a concept in your head and then writing it out, I'm sure I forgot a few other things as well. :smalltongue:


Class Features

Malignant Mind: Why is this not a feat and part of the prerequisite? One might think that a Paladin or Cleric would immediately fall upon completing the obviously evil requirement...and most Deities probably wouldn't let them atone for sacrificing an innocent to an archdevil.

I stated in the prerequisites that if they commit evil acts in the act of aspiring to become a disciple of the nine, they do not lose class features or have their alignment changed. They don't need to atone because they now gain their power from devils and not their former god. If they do cross the devils though and lose their power they'll probably have some trouble regaining class abilities, and will probably have to worship an evil god to get powers again.


Diametric Blade: Seems less than stellar. "Congratulations! You can smite your friends now!" Why would you actually want this power? Using it seems a really good way to lose your alignm...*remembers Malignant Mind*. Still, seems a little odd that you can smite your way through a bus full of nuns to slay a demon and still come out smelling like roses...

Well the idea is that they're crazy. So crazy that they think this is a good idea. Hence the name "Malignant Mind" for the class ability. Of course it doesn't make sense, but they think it does. The ends justify the means and all that jazz. And it's a lot more than smite, quite a few cleric and paladin spells are determined by alignment.


Body of the Baatezu: ...alright. The mechanics are solid, so it functions. On a tangent, however, I don't approve of the ability, as all but becoming a devil/demon/whatever, complete with the ability to summon them to help you kick ass, doesn't seem to jive well with the whole "in the name of the greater good" thing. There's not even a little cost to the thing! You just waltz in, grab Asmodeus' power, then waltz right back out and attack the gates of Hell itself, and there's nothing he can do to stop you!

See above.


Sacrifice: Again, fairly solid mechanics, but another RP hook just went zooming by. Also, by "this expires" you means "Pain points expire." That'll just clarify things a bit.

Fixed.


Overall Consensus

*snipped*

I get what you're saying, and I've added an ability as well as extra fluff that I think will clarify and improve the class. Now, they can still kill devils without worrying about it but for every devil they kill their debt grows larger (increased XP = increased level = lower level of Hell). I think this should solve most of your problems with the class.


As written, a creature who resists or breaks the effect grows angel wings...and I'm pretty sure the Supplicant was supposed to receive those wings. :smalltongue:

To fix this, mention the wings first. Otherwise you'll just have the Supplicant gaining wings when a creature breaks the effect, which will result in a lot of wings after a week or so.

Every time a supplicant of the seven activates his Aura of Menace, an angel gets his wings? :smallbiggrin:

[Hyooz]

First off, I like the concept, although the Dream could be expanded on a little more...it's a great idea, but it seems like a few corners were cut where you could have expanded in a truly excellent manner. Specifically, it comes off as to much of a...well...real place, which bothers me.

Permission to snatch/adapt the idea and tinker with it a bit in my own time (credit where credit is due, of course)? I just love the premise...


As I said earlier, feel free to use the idea and tweak it as you will. I have a feeling you and I envision it very similarly; I just lack the wordcraft to really describe it well since, well, it should be incredibly hard to actually describe.

The Dream:
Nice idea, although the 3-mile radius is a bit small. Perhaps something like 3 miles per class level? I'd like to see this be a little more useful, as the same amount of scouting is just a quick spell or an hour's work away.


Noted and adjusted.

Spirit Talker:
Again, nice ability, but it lacks a lot of use since you must first fall asleep in the location you're in. I'd suggest a trance of sorts, as otherwise you'll get narcoleptic Dreamers, or parties deciding to just camp out in order to talk to a ghost. That sort of breaks the flow of the game, in my mind.

I see it as a fair trade off of cast time and basically at-will casting. I would allow briefer 'naps' to suffice for this ability, probably, though. I'd rather not tack on a trance mechanic, but as long as they are asleep, it should be fine.


Sheathed in Darkness:
Alright. Perfectly fine ability. Does this affect only attack rolls, or all harmful attacks? Spells? Psionic Powers? Supernatural abilities? It might help to specify.

Done.


Dreamer's Curse:
I dislike the fact that it just duplicates two existing spells, although I must admit that sleep does fit. That said, I'd like abilities along the lines of Nightmare's Awaken, only with unique effects...summoning nightmare monsters which fight the dreamer in his or her dreams, mind-wrenching visions...things like that. If I wanted eyebite, I'd play a Wizard. The second power also bothers me, for two reasons: firstly, that's a LOT of Con damage for just a touch attack. Secondly, vengeful spirits just don't seem to fit the surreal, dream-like quality of the class. I'd say accursed spirits needs to go.

Admittedly, I'm not happy to just copy/paste spells as mysteries, but Shadowcasters lack a good deal of versatility, and when I want a similar effect anyway, it's hard to justify re-inventing the wheel when sleep has it covered. I do agree that eyebite was a little out of place, as well as bits of the spirit flavor (I will say though, that the original spirit mystery here was basically a strictly worse cloudkill. I think you'll like what I've come up with instead, however, I certainly prefer it.)


Lucid Dream:
Does that only work when asleep? If so, it's a much less than impressive ability, especially to sit on a level by itself. Fairly flavorful, but something I'd honestly expect to be part and parcel of the Onyx Dream, if you're going to include the ability. I know I wouldn't be especially excited to grab this ability on a level-up.

Yeah, less than super-impressive, but they can't all be huge winners. It's fun, and sets up Waking Dream.

Onyx Grip:
Bleh. Functional and traditional, but I'm missing the dreamy kick the other abilities have.

The flavor is, admittedly, a little weaker here than other places, but the PrC still needed some sound mechanical advantages, and this also helps signify the increasing melding of Dreamer and Dream that started from Sheathed in Darkness.

Dreamer's Eye:
... ... ... Really? A +1-+5 bonus to the DCs of your save-or-suck/dies? I'm afraid I have to veto this, especially with how easy it is to get checks up there. By level 20 I can easily hit the 36, and a +5 DC is just crazy. Additionally, the flat numerical thing eats into the wonderfully delicious dream flavor, and leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.


Ability totally reworked. I was struggling a little between fun flavor abilities and keeping the PrC mechanically sound, and Knowledge devotion is always good so I slapped something together quickly and ran with it. The new ability maintains flavor better and still has some good mechanical kick.

Vengeful Spirits:
Not really liking the spirits angle (as it only appears once or twice, aside from the speaking, which I don't really consider the same thing), but the ability is solid. Might be a bit spammable though, considering you can do it every other round to assist a mystery nova, making your already very high DC mysteries even MORE likely to succeed...which suggests that one of these needs to change, or go...or both of them need a change.

Reworked the flavor here. I don't think it'll be too spammable. I think at 20th, you end up with something like 9 castings/day of initiate mysteries, which isn't too terrible, especially if you're also using it on allies (for good reasons, of course)

Dream Walker:
Another case of just straight-up spell grabbing. Eh...it works, but I find it somewhat lacking. Astral Projection, at least, functions nicely, but I'm less convinced by limited wish. Dream Stride doesn't have daily uses...so cut that clause, which I assume was carried over from the Blood Magus. The power works, but I'd personally like to see insanity or nightmares as a result of a painful exit, rather than straight up damage. The Fortitude save should be 17 + Charisma modifier...the DC that the spell would have, as the power is a mystery. Gotta be careful when converting from class ability to spell/power/invocation/mystery...you'll miss things like you did here.

Blood Magus might be one of my favorite PrCs just for Bloodwalk alone so... yeah, you caught me stealing that entirely. Still, it works, I think. I made a few adjustments to keep the dreamy flava alive. I altered Dreams Made Real, even if it is still spell grabbing. It's another one of those occasions when just using spell writeups made more sense than trying to phrase things perfectly.

Dream Melding:
Interesting capstone, as it's very DM dependent for when it's really useful. Still, that fits the surreal quality of the class, so I'm all for it staying.

If nothing else, you can use touch mysteries at range, so it'll be at least somewhat useful all around.

I appreciate the PEACH quite a bit. Hopefully the new version works even better than before. I'm happy with the changes, at least. I thought I was going to go in heavier with the spirits angle, but considering the spirits in the Dream aren't even really spirits, well, it made sense to just drop it.

[DracoDei]

Ok... one of the things Djinn did in his critique was to add his weight to the concept that the class was too narrowly focused to be worth playing. I put in a little ability that had passed through my mind in an embryonic stage, but been rejected as moving too far away from established druidic areas of competence, and the most central ideas of the PrC... well, the PrC needed some broadening, so now they get to get rid of undead (or deathless...) in ways that higher level clerics could only dream that their Turning or Rebuking abilities could still do.

Also (at his suggestion) put it back to full 10/10 spellcasting advancement.

Tried to hammer home the LACK of actual oaths, just supernatural consequences, and copied over the example spells added, removed, and modified from the example character to a spoiler in the "Spells" section.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Note to self: don't procrastinate next time.

Moar fluff is up for the Temple Wakers. Hopefully, the conflict is clearer now. Now for snacks.

[JoshuaZ]

Ok... one of the things Djinn did in his critique was to add his weight to the concept that the class was too narrowly focused to be worth playing. I put in a little ability that had passed through my mind in an embryonic stage, but been rejected as moving too far away from established druidic areas of competence, and the most central ideas of the PrC... well, the PrC needed some broadening, so now they get to get rid of undead (or deathless...) in ways that higher level clerics could only dream that their Turning or Rebuking abilities could still do.

[QUOTE]

Seems good. Minor issue with that ability's wording "Unless your alignment is Evil, while you treat all undead as if their home plane was the negative energy plane for purposes of your class abilities and spellcasting." Delete "while".

[QUOTE]
Also (at his suggestion) put it back to full 10/10 spellcasting advancement.


I'll defer to him on that; he clearly has a better idea of that than I do.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'll defer to him on that; he clearly has a better idea of that than I do.

I thought the class was specialized enough that both losing Wild Shape and penalizing spellcasting was a bit much. Additionally, randomly picking 4th level is a little bizarre.

Personally, I probably would have made the Anchor Guardian a 5 level class (as the concept is quite specific), and I think some of the trouble comes from spreading it out over 15 levels. Just thoughts, however. :smallbiggrin:

[JoshuaZ]

I thought the class was specialized enough that both losing Wild Shape and penalizing spellcasting was a bit much. Additionally, randomly picking 4th level is a little bizarre.


Eh, it looked like there was a lot being gained at that level between class features, saves and BAB. Although now that I'm looking again I'm not completely sure why I thought that. *shrug*

[Lord_Gareth]

Djinn - YIM!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Djinn - YIM!

On and waiting.

[DracoDei]

Personally, I probably would have made the Anchor Guardian a 5 level class (as the concept is quite specific), and I think some of the trouble comes from spreading it out over 15 levels. Just thoughts, however. :smallbiggrin:
Actually, I originally had it as 10 and I could have probably found a way to squeeze it down to 5 if I had really tried. The thing was I realized that for flavor reasons both the losses had to be permanent, and both Wild-Shape and the spellcasting scale with level all the way to 20th. Thus I felt that the benefits of the PrC had to increase well at least that far. At that time, not enough of the abilities I had scaled by caster level or whatever (and they still don't really), so they wouldn't continue to increase after completing the PrC. Thus, I expanded it to 15. I guess I COULD have set it for Druid 15 entry if I had thought about it like that, but that would mean huge class abilities at PrC level 1, and would have made the "must have gained 2 levels without teleporting" thing actually mechanically nasty, rather than merely flavorful (and I do think that keeping it around adds nice flavor).

My conclusion: Yep, it is narrow (less so now that you can get rid of undead as well as Outsiders) and if someone had pointed out earlier that it should be fewer levels I might have TRIED to get it to 5 (and perhaps failed and ended up going with 15 anyway), but as far as I can see, I would have to completely re-work the abilities from scratch (to make them scale better) to make it a 5 level class.

EDIT: Moved "This is Not Your Home" to 5th level so that it comes one level AFTER you first get any ability that it actually matters for.

[Lord_Gareth]

THE FLUFF IS DONE, MO FOS!

*pants*

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

THE FLUFF IS DONE, MO FOS!

*high fives*

*both Lord Gareth and Djinn in Tonic transform out of HOMEBREWTRON (tm) form*

Mission Accomplished.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

*high fives*

*both Lord Gareth and Djinn in Tonic transform out of HOMEBREWTRON (tm) form*

Mission Accomplished.

Wait, if you guys are HOMEBREWTRON (tm) does that mean you're the villains to someones' WINGITBOT (tm?)?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Wait, if you guys are HOMEBREWTRON (tm) does that mean you're the villains to someones' WINGITBOT (tm?)?

Actually, in an ironic twist of fate, we're also WINGITBOT (tm), but only in-game, where we both tend to run things on instinct and sudden inspiration. Gareth and I and our damn evil plot voodoo...

/inside joke

Explanatory Note: In case anyone was wondering, Gareth and I have known each other for several years now (what is it...6? 7?), over a variety of sites...hence our interactions and inside jokes, like this one. :smallbiggrin:

[Owrtho]

Well, it seems likely that I wont manage to get a submission in in time.
Still will likely try to finish it though, I rather liked the idea.

Owrtho

[Lord_Gareth]

So....voting thread. When does it appear??

[ErrantX]

I'll put it up this evening, I've not had the time today.

-X

[DaTedinator]

Solid class. I can't complain, but I wasn't really blown away. The wind may have rustled my hair briefly, but that's about the limit of my excitement reading the class. I feel you may have passed up some good opportunities to have really unique gifts from each archangel in favor of a straight transformation, and lost a lot of interesting potential in the process. It's definitely a choice for those looking for a holy warrior, but just doesn't carry the punch I like to see in a PrC.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. My apolgies to Vaynor, but this definitely wasn't my greatest work ever, and I think I certainly could've done better if I tried harder, so double apologies to Vaynor.

I think I might remake this class after the competition, as sort of a redemptive effort.

[Xallace]

So, I'm back, sorta! Did I miss anything of importance?

[ErrantX]

Voting Thread is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145723)

Votes will run til the 29th of this month, after that the next contest will begin within a couple days.

-X

[Golden-Esque]

I know its a little late, but I am going to share some critical thinking on the classes.

Just some quick feedback on everyone's entries, since I really didn't have time to offer much during the contest. Sorry! :(

Awesome / Mundane: It was a cool concept, but I really couldn't take it seriously as a class next to the other options. Also, few people like to play the "Common Joe," which also hurts the combo a little.

Lord-Wardens / Illustrious Ones: I am not going to lie, Djinn, the Epic-Level thing turned me away from your class. The Lord-Warden felt more like a suped-up Bloodhound then anything unique to me as well. I also didn't like how the conflict was blurbed in at the end of both entries instead of being consistent throughout the works; it made it feel like each of you made your own class then thought together "hrm, how can we make these fit?"

Anchored / Seed: The Anchored Guardian's picture being one of Malfurion Stormrage (or some other Night Elf Druid) completely distracted me from the Anchored. Seed looked and felt entirely too short. Aside from their background power sources, there wasn't much conflict here either.

Black Wolf / White Wolf: These classes were both fun. It was a daring choice to not do anything extremely supernatural with your classes (gods know we all did). Not only was the fluff opposed, but the things the classes improved were opposed too. Blood feuds are a subtle, but powerful opposition.

Dreamer / Walker: I'm personally not a huge fan of Shadowcasters myself, so there might be a little bit of a bias here. Because Shadowcaster isn't what I could call a "popular" class the way binder got to be, I think trying to suck people in with epic fluff would have been the way to go (like what Djinn did with his Iron Bands class in the 'Wyld Things' contest. That lore alone made me interested in Binders :P). Also, since both classes use the Onyx Dream, they didn't feel opposed.

Nine / Seven: I had to read the line about the Nine being Good-Aligned several times before I realized what it said, then I read the Seven's several times, wondering if they were Evil. If the Seven had been made into an Evil class, this pair would have had my vote. Good guys that draw on Hell and Bad Guys that draw on Heaven? Awesome! However, since they were both Good, I didn't really see a conflict here, which is why I didn't vote for him.

Avenger / Exorcist: Since I helped make these classes, I can't comment much on them, but I will offer my own musing (can't speak for Xallace though). I think we both really wanted to make a class that would "ruffle the hair" as Djinn said of those who read it. In trying to accomplish this, we definitely made it too wordy, and I think I would cut some of it down if I could change it; maybe make it fit on one page :).

Summary: One of the things that REALLY surprised me about how the entries came out was the lack of all-out conflict between the classes. Not much of the lore of any entry hinted at a giant conflict, which (ironically enough) was something Xallace and I both decided early on that we wanted to exist within our classes. Different people, different styles, I guess :).

@ErrantX: I went back and altered Xallace and my posts so that each forum post has a link to the next. If you want, you can change your links back to only showing the first page. I was worried that people wouldn't realize that each word was a different link xD.

[Vaynor]

Nine / Seven: I had to read the line about the Nine being Good-Aligned several times before I realized what it said, then I read the Seven's several times, wondering if they were Evil. If the Seven had been made into an Evil class, this pair would have had my vote. Good guys that draw on Hell and Bad Guys that draw on Heaven? Awesome! However, since they were both Good, I didn't really see a conflict here, which is why I didn't vote for him.

Well our original idea was that while they have the same general agenda (good) but differ in their methods and ideologies. The disciples of the nine find the supplicants of the seven too wimpy (for lack of a better word) in their methods, and the supplicants of the seven think the disciples of the nine are, quite frankly, an abomination, and detest their methods entirely. The disciples of the nine probably wouldn't directly attack the supplicants of the seven without provocation, but the supplicants of the seven would kill a disciple of the nine on sight, thus creating quite a conflict between the two. And because the disciples of the nine would be hated so much by the supplicants of the seven, they don't exactly like them either. I would have detailed more of this in the entry but I wanted both classes to be able to stand alone as well as work together (in a sense), and I figured that the alignment restrictions pretty much set the tone regardless. However, I probably should have included a bit more about the opposition, oh well.

I was thinking about having them both be opposite their power source, but while I could see the Lawful Evil devils granting their power to the disciples of the nine in a maniacal, sell-your-soul kind of deal, I didn't really see any type of good-aligned Celestial-inhabiting self-respecting granting power to evil regardless of the reasons.

We also thought it would be kind of interesting to have completely dichotomous classes that are technically on the same side. I hope this clears things up a bit.

[Golden-Esque]

I was thinking about having them both be opposite their power source, but while I could see the Lawful Evil devils granting their power to the disciples of the nine in a maniacal, sell-your-soul kind of deal, I didn't really see any type of good-aligned Celestial-inhabiting self-respecting granting power to evil regardless of the reasons.

The fun thing about Evil characters is that they are, for a lack of a better word, giant jackasses. I could totally see a Lawful Evil character tricking a celestial into signing a pact and having to spend the rest of their existence furthering Evil.


We also thought it would be kind of interesting to have completely dichotomous classes that are technically on the same side. I hope this clears things up a bit.

You (or anyone else I critiqued) don't have to justify yourself to me. I was just giving my honest opinion :).

[Vaynor]

The fun thing about Evil characters is that they are, for a lack of a better word, giant jackasses. I could totally see a Lawful Evil character tricking a celestial into signing a pact and having to spend the rest of their existence furthering Evil.

Hmm, that would have been a good idea, but we didn't think of it. :smallfrown: Maybe even have them taking the power by force instead of just tricking them.


You (or anyone else I critiqued) don't have to justify yourself to me. I was just giving my honest opinion :).

Oh, I know. I just figured it was an important point to make regardless.

I'll probably end up editing the classes to be more opposed after the contest is over, I really do like the idea of making the supplicants evil (although we'd probably have to change the name (supplicant: one who asks or begs for something earnestly or humbly :smalleek:). They wouldn't exactly scream humble or earnest to me. :smalltongue:

Edit: Thanks for the input by the way. :smallsmile:

[Golden-Esque]

Edit: Thanks for the input by the way. :smallsmile:

No problem. Tacking "False" in front of their name, calling them the False Supplicants of Seven would work just fine, as the "false" hints that they're not as humble or begging as they appear :).

EDIT: The 'S' Alterations also make it sound like you're hissing the name. Snakes have been associated with the Devil since the Old Testament :).

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Lord-Wardens / Illustrious Ones: I am not going to lie, Djinn, the Epic-Level thing turned me away from your class. The Lord-Warden felt more like a suped-up Bloodhound then anything unique to me as well. I also didn't like how the conflict was blurbed in at the end of both entries instead of being consistent throughout the works; it made it feel like each of you made your own class then thought together "hrm, how can we make these fit?"

The conflict actually IS consistent throughout...especially in the fluff at the end. We just felt that it might help DMs to see a more detailed section at the very end. If you re-read it, you'll find their conflict mentioned throughout, especially in the notables section.

And yes...we knew the epic levels would turn people away. I still feel the Illustrious Ones are fairly well done though...and, since this isn't a "stand-on-your-own" contest, I felt it would be good grounds to experiment on, as "overthrowing" me doesn't really count for as much in a team contest, so I wouldn't be weakening the competition for my promised prize for my eventual usurper. :smalltongue:

So I learned submitting an epic level class is, as suspected, a bad idea. Next time, I'll toss that out the window. The game is on. :smallbiggrin:

[DracoDei]

Anchored / Seed: The Anchored Guardian's picture being one of Malfurion Stormrage (or some other Night Elf Druid) completely distracted me from the Anchored.My google-fu stinks with pictures. Bhu tried to help me but... would it have been better to omit the picture entirely in your opinion?

Aside from their background power sources, there wasn't much conflict here either.
Interesting, given that at least two of the powers I created were specific "I hate you SO much" type things to the Seed. Specifically "Where is your Home?" and "Rebuilding My Home". I was trying to imply rather than state, and figured most everyone would not LIKE what a Seed was doing, so I focused on someone who could find out about it, and then do something about it.

[Golden-Esque]

My google-fu stinks with pictures. Bhu tried to help me but... would it have been better to omit the picture entirely in your opinion?

I use DeviantArt (http://www.deviantart.com/?loggedin=1) for my pictures, personally. Its the best custom art site I've ever found, and even though it takes a little of finesse, I've always found something I've liked from the site. Except for when I made the White Lion Knight class. Everything was a Warhammer picture, hahaha.

To be fair, I am biased. I don't know how many Warcraft players are going to look at your class. However, as a Warcraft player, that picture gave me a prejudice about what it was going to be like, and naturally your class and World of Warcraft Druids have little in common, so I was confused.


I was trying to imply rather than state, and figured most everyone would not LIKE what a Seed was doing, so I focused on someone who could find out about it, and then do something about it.

That might have been my problem with the classes, then. I was really expecting a lot of big, flashy battles and a lot of people relied on subtle conflicts. I was expecting these big organizations that were in open conflict with each other (and that's why Xallace and I have such a conflict between the Binders and Priests).

That's actually something I want to write about later. I think the concept of the Shadow War is a cool one :).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I really wish I would have gotten around to this before the vote thread came online, so I apologize for the lack of earlier PEACHes.

Awesome / Mundane: The Scion of Awesome is absurdly so, which is not bad. The clerks of the mundane did a great job of capturing the Joe Schmoe feeling, as much as that seems to hurt the class. I almost want to the say the clerks would work better as an NPC rival than as something for PCs. Alternatively, you could go odd couple on everyone if two players were willing to both take each of the two classes. Overall, it seems like both classes were designed with tongue planted firmly in cheek rather than being out and out jokes.

Lord-Wardens / Illustrious Ones: The conflict is nice here, but seeing [epic] made me lose interest. This tag also made me reel back a little as being unnecessary:

Special [Out of Character]: Must have been given express permission by the DM to take this class.

Beyond that, the presentation and abilities are appropriate for [epic], and I can't help but think of a pair of Scions of Awesome and clerks of the mundane eventually pairing off as Illustrious Ones and Lord-Wardens.

Anchored / Seed: The difference in the length of the two PrCs kind of bugs me on this. Anchored Guardian feels more like restricts options than it offers. From the fluff, it feels more like something some crotchety old man would use to protect the forest he's spent his entire life in than something for adventurers. Seed felt a little light on abilities, although the fluff was interesting.

Black Wolf / White Wolf: Loved the fluff between the two, mechanics less so. It was nice to give Combat Focus some love, but, again, the difference in class levels acted as a mark against it for me. Not much else to say.

Nine / Seven: The fluff on the Disciple of Nine made me think more of Knight Templar (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar) than Well Intentioned Extremist, (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist) which is a shame, because I'd normally love this class. Probably just me, but I feel a more "trickster" approach would have down well for it.

The Supplicant of Seven may have worked better as Evil channeling Good, like Golden-Esque recommended, but I kind of like the idea of them being true and faithful. However, that approach does leave some issue with the conflict. Not sure.

Dreamer / Walker: Will address at the end of the postatoe.

Avenger / Exorcist: I loved the Avenger's fluff and the idea that Seropaenes has become that which he once loathed. The mechanics are a little dense, but, they do more than make up for the fact that you've limited your binding options slightly, as the actual class abilities feel like mini-vestiges in and of themselves. Individually, the Avenger is probably my favorite class out of the bunch.

Sadly, the Exorcist seems far too hypocritical to me, as they're binding portions of the gods to rid the world of people who bind souls to themselves. I would have enjoyed the class more if there was a stronger connection to the traitor angle of Seropaenes becoming a vestige himself and combating that.




Dreamer / Walker: I'm personally not a huge fan of Shadowcasters myself, so there might be a little bit of a bias here. Because Shadowcaster isn't what I could call a "popular" class the way binder got to be, I think trying to suck people in with epic fluff would have been the way to go (like what Djinn did with his Iron Bands class in the 'Wyld Things' contest. That lore alone made me interested in Binders :P). Also, since both classes use the Onyx Dream, they didn't feel opposed.

For the lack of conflict between the Wakers and the Dreamers, I largely feel responsible for that. Most of my inspiration for the Temple Wakers came from Hyooz's initial ideas of the Onyx Dream, and what conflict we did have didn't really solidify until the end of the contest's run, as the Waker I presented was probably the third idea/draft I had for the class. I personally don't feel that the Waker was my best work and, given either more time or inspiration, I could have maybe found a better angle for the conflict. In the end, as others have mentioned, the opposition is largely ideological disputes.


Overall, it seemed that the conflict aspect of this contest threw a little bit of a wrench into the designs. Some groups have clear conflict and amazing fluff, but light mechanics, others have solid fluff and mechanics, but light conflict, and most seem to have one strong, almost "solo" entry with another support entry as the opposition.

[Golden-Esque]

Avenger / Exorcist: I loved the Avenger's fluff and the idea that Seropaenes has become that which he once loathed. The mechanics are a little dense, but, they do more than make up for the fact that you've limited your binding options slightly, as the actual class abilities feel like mini-vestiges in and of themselves. Individually, the Avenger is probably my favorite class out of the bunch.

Sadly, the Exorcist seems far too hypocritical to me, as they're binding portions of the gods to rid the world of people who bind souls to themselves. I would have enjoyed the class more if there was a stronger connection to the traitor angle of Seropaenes becoming a vestige himself and combating that.

You actually stumbled upon the entire point of both classes. The Avengers use a power system that's not very different from casting spells under a Magic Point system, and the Exorcists Bind their deities to themselves in a way identically to the Binders.

In reality, how different are these lot? Xallace and I wanted our conflict to be prominent, but have something else be subtle: irony. Avengers bind the man responsible for creating their greatest enemy to their souls and Exorcists use a channeling method that in reality is no different from Binding. Who's really right, and is the conflict anything more then an old grudge now? How much of a threat do Binders pose to the Universe, anyway? And are the gods worth worshiping if they are so fickle as to abandon all their principals? Its some deep stuff.

On the idea that Seropaenes is a traitor, well, I don't really agree with that. Being a shell of nothing for so long like a Vestige has really warps the mind and destroys the soul; there's really nothing left of the old Seropaenes in terms of personality; he's long gone. All that's left is his knowledge and hatred, a deadly pair for the Seropaenean Exorcists.

[DracoDei]

From the fluff, it feels more like something some crotchety old man would use to protect the forest he's spent his entire life in than something for adventurers.
Can you expand on that? I may have done something wrong in my write-up since, as I envision them, that would be as silly to them as living in, and taking good care of, one's bathroom, while the rest of the house falls to pieces, and is used by homeless drug addicts as a "shooting gallery"

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You actually stumbled upon the entire point of both classes. The Avengers use a power system that's not very different from casting spells under a Magic Point system, and the Exorcists Bind their deities to themselves in a way identically to the Binders.

In reality, how different are these lot? Xallace and I wanted our conflict to be prominent, but have something else be subtle: irony. The one class Binds the man responsible for creating their greatest enemy to their souls and the other performs the very act that they persecute the other for.

Ah, okay. The Magic Point bit for the Avengers seemed minor, as it reminded me more of the psionic vestiges from the Mind's Eye articles, so that portion of it fell past me. The irony to me, at least for the Exorcists feels more prominent than subtle, almost heavy handed, which is why I viewed such as a great hypocrisy.


On the idea that Seropaenes is a traitor, well, I don't really agree with that. Being a shell of nothing for so long like a Vestige has really warps the mind and destroys the soul; there's really nothing left of the old Seropaenes in terms of personality; he's long gone. All that's left is his knowledge and hatred, a deadly pair for the Seropaenean Exorcists.

Fair enough. My memory may be faulty, but I feel that, although Vestiges are shells of their former selves, some piece of identity does remain in that form. It probably does lessen and change, given time, but I can't help but think that the reason vestiges offer themselves up is partially to retain that old sense of self. Just my two cents.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Can you expand on that? I may have done something wrong in my write-up since, as I envision them, that would be as silly to them as living in, and taking good care of, one's bathroom, while the rest of the house falls to pieces, and is used by homeless drug addicts as a "shooting gallery"

I'll try. It may have been the emphasis on being "home" that did it for me. With the removal of wildshape and the idea that their home is mainly their body, that is where the image developed for me. As they are still working towards protecting their surroundings as well, like their garden or yard, that's where for the forest imagery helps. I hope that helps, and it may have just been me.

[Golden-Esque]

It probably does lessen and change, given time, but I can't help but think that the reason vestiges offer themselves up is partially to retain that old sense of self. Just my two cents.

Read up on Amon, the Void Before the Alter :).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Read up on Amon, the Void Before the Alter :).

Right, right. I just keep thinking more of Paimon or Marchosis when I think "vestige" than Amon and others who have "faded" in the centuries.

[DracoDei]

I'll try. It may have been the emphasis on being "home" that did it for me. With the removal of wildshape and the idea that their home is mainly their body, that is where the image developed for me. As they are still working towards protecting their surroundings as well, like their garden or yard, that's where for the forest imagery helps. I hope that helps, and it may have just been me.
Meh.... was supposed to be about a 50/50 of Body and Plane. Don't know how rare or common your confusion would be, but I will try to remember to edit in further clarifying fluff after the voting period is over.

[Bhu]

I know its a little late, but I am going to share some critical thinking on the classes.

Just some quick feedback on everyone's entries, since I really didn't have time to offer much during the contest. Sorry! :(


Anchored / Seed: The Anchored Guardian's picture being one of Malfurion Stormrage (or some other Night Elf Druid) completely distracted me from the Anchored. Seed looked and felt entirely too short. Aside from their background power sources, there wasn't much conflict here either.


Summary: One of the things that REALLY surprised me about how the entries came out was the lack of all-out conflict between the classes. Not much of the lore of any entry hinted at a giant conflict, which (ironically enough) was something Xallace and I both decided early on that we wanted to exist within our classes. Different people, different styles, I guess :).


The Anchored/Seed would be an all out fight. The Seeds goal is to slowly alter more and more of the Prime Material to resemble the Far Realm, something the Anchored Guardian would never stand for. Even worse they could simply start in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness and have plenty of time to convert quite a bit of the area over time, along with the flora and fauna. Given their abilities, it's likely the Guardian would be among the first to discover a Seed.

[Zom B]

Since a few people have pointed it out, I thought I'd chime in on the Black Wolf Warrior. We decided that it worked best as a 5-level PrC because it was supposed to represent a quick path to power. But then again, that was when every level added another +3 to weapon damage and erased your prior class abilities. It made sense to limit it to 5 levels, as making it 10 levels of erasing would be difficult to manage and keep the PrC aimed as a 6th-level entry.

Either way, the PrC gets warrior BAB and good saves all around, something I don't think anything published can lay claim to. In the end, it was difficult to give them a capstone that rivaled the White Wolf's, and it probably would have worked out better if we had taken the BAB down to the Monk's and just expanded on the PrC to ten levels.

But then again, the fluff has gotten some praise, so maybe that will save it.

[Lord_Gareth]

To remind Errant of the idea I'd tossed at him before, I was hoping to make the Sisters of Sorrow in the next PrC contest, a blackguard-esque PrC with themes of heartbreak, revenge, and suffering.

[Hyooz]

Hey now, no fair influencing the theme of the next contest based on ideas you already have :P

[Lord_Gareth]

He'd actually asked me to remind him of it, 'cause I seemed so excited about the idea. Besides, I actually picked one of our contest's themes once :P

[ErrantX]

And the winners are...

Golden-esque and Xallace with their Seropaenean Exorcist and Avenger!

Great classes everybody, I will have to do another teams event sometime in the future. This one was neat!

Expect a new contest sometime either today or tomorrow!

-X

[ErrantX]

New contest is up, had a few minutes as it turns out :)

Power Corrupts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147394) is the theme, make a class that has mechanics similar to Blackguard and Ronin in that you get bonuses for having levels in a specific class (base or prestige, doesn't matter), and may trade in levels of that class to get levels of your new prestige class.

Remember, 'corruption' can go both ways. An evil character could become 'redeemed' as a form of corruption, for example. An ordered character can fall and become a chaotic nightmare, and vice versa.

Enjoy!

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

What about a character who has forsaken a code-of-conduct class (Knight, Paladin, Samurai, just as examples) and can trade in levels of that class?

[Hyooz]

I'm not sure I entirely grasp what you're after with this new contest. The examples of Blackguard and a Wizard swearing off magic for psionic powers kind of confuse me.

Is the main requirement the option to trade in levels of a certain class/getting bonuses for levels in a certain class a la blackguard, or does it need to be a total forsaking of your previous abilities a la wizard to psion? Blackguards still divine cast, is my hang up.

[ErrantX]

What about a character who has forsaken a code-of-conduct class (Knight, Paladin, Samurai, just as examples) and can trade in levels of that class?

I suppose so, so long as the classes have something in common (like a blackguard should be able to cannibalize levels in cleric for example, or Knight).


I'm not sure I entirely grasp what you're after with this new contest. The examples of Blackguard and a Wizard swearing off magic for psionic powers kind of confuse me.

Is the main requirement the option to trade in levels of a certain class/getting bonuses for levels in a certain class a la blackguard, or does it need to be a total forsaking of your previous abilities a la wizard to psion? Blackguards still divine cast, is my hang up.

The main requirement is that through some sort of change in a character via alignment/rp/changing his socks, he has renounced a previous class to gain benefits in this new class, by possessing levels in this renounced class you gain benefits in this new class dependent on how many levels you had (like ex-paladin blackguards gain additional sneak attack, lay on hands, etc) and the ability to the trade in levels of the renounced class(es) to gain levels in your new class.

Does that make sense?

-X

[Arbitrarious]

I think the option is you have to do something that would be forsaking the intent of your previous class. I was kind of the surprised by the no binder cleric thing, but I guess if he didn't say that that would be a really common entry and that theme did just win. Maybe he's looking for fresher ideas.

[Hyooz]

Ok, I think that makes sense.

I'm mostly worried about these classes turning into a Blighter-fest. The Blackguard works because your paladin abilities are changed instead of sworn off. That's more what we're going for?

[ErrantX]

I think the option is you have to do something that would be forsaking the intent of your previous class. I was kind of the surprised by the no binder cleric thing, but I guess if he didn't say that that would be a really common entry and that theme did just win. Maybe he's looking for fresher ideas.

Emphasis mine, what are you talking about? I just used that as an example, not as a restriction. By all means, make a cleric who becomes a binder, or vice versa, or whatever else you want really. A redeemed warlock who becomes a paladin like class, or fallen cleric who gains magic from binding vestiges are cool ideas.


-X

[Arbitrarious]

Emphasis mine, what are you talking about? I just used that as an example, not as a restriction. By all means, make a cleric who becomes a binder, or vice versa, or whatever else you want really. A redeemed warlock who becomes a paladin like class, or fallen cleric who gains magic from binding vestiges are cool ideas.

-X

Ahh, I was under the impression that wasn't what you were really looking for. Sorry for misinterpreting it.

[ErrantX]

Ok, I think that makes sense.

I'm mostly worried about these classes turning into a Blighter-fest. The Blackguard works because your paladin abilities are changed instead of sworn off. That's more what we're going for?

Blighter Fest = Terribad. That being said, anyone who actually wants to make a better version of the Blighter that isn't like playing a game of Eat-The-Stick is welcome to (I'd love to see it). And yes, that's definitely an avenue to work on. Another avenue would be say my example magic-renouncing wizard turned psychic, for each level of wizard he has he gains some new psychic benefit, be it a psi-like ability of a spell he used to know, or a psicrystal familiar type thing.

Just ideas.

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Children of the Mausoleum > Blighter. That is all.

[ErrantX]

Children of the Mausoleum > Blighter. That is all.

FACT.

But a Blighter that isn't just dumb would be neat too :P

If people wanna make redos on Blackguard, Blighter, and Ronin I'm allowing it, just make sure it's different enough and better. Like if someone wanted to add Tome of Battle to Blackguard or Ronin, changing a lot of stuff up to make it more Crusader based or Warblade based. Blighter based on sense and reason, as opposed to stupidity. Ya know?

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

Warning: The Sisters of Sorrow are a very dark-seeming class, dealing with such themes as loss, suicide, and depression. It is intended for mature players who are willing to explore the depths a wounded soul will go to feel healed, or at least stop the pain, and it is not meant to offend anyone. If you are not comfortable with these themes, I would not reccomend reading and/or playing with the Sisters of Sorrow.

[Xallace]

Oooh, I like this one. And with my last midterm tonight, excellent timing.

[FlamingKobold]

Definitely in on this. I have two ideas that relate to this contest, and I'm wondering which one people think is better:

1. Some sort of PrC that requires warlock levels and being evil that lets you trade in eldritch blast damage for some sort of a divine blast. It'd be a sort of paladin/hexblade/warlock, but all Good. Actually, this might work better being a good-deity specific thing and applying to any evil character. It reminds me of Lanky's famous character, a rogue who found the light of god. This would be especially sweet with something like a lich or a vampire.

2. Hunter of the Burning Hate. A cleric/paladin/FS/whatever of Pelor that finally realizes he is evil and swears not to kill Pelorean practitioners, but to enlighten them and cleanse the church. You'd still stay Good, you'd just forsake your god and swear him as your nemesis. This one sounds pretty fun too.

Thoughts on either?

[ErrantX]

Definitely in on this. I have two ideas that relate to this contest, and I'm wondering which one people think is better:

2. Hunter of the Burning Hate. A cleric/paladin/FS/whatever of Pelor that finally realizes he is evil and swears not to kill Pelorean practitioners, but to enlighten them and cleanse the church. You'd still stay Good, you'd just forsake your god and swear him as your nemesis. This one sounds pretty fun too.

Thoughts on either?

I like the 2nd, but I'd suggest building on the idea of Pelor, the Burning Hate :)

-X

[FlamingKobold]

I like the 2nd, but I'd suggest building on the idea of Pelor, the Burning Hate :)

-X

By this do you mean creating more evidence of Pelor's evilness? If not, I don't know what you mean.

[ErrantX]

By this do you mean creating more evidence of Pelor's evilness? If not, I don't know what you mean.

What I meant was that you didn't necessarily stop believing in Pelor, just you sort of switch to the other side of his power. Dark side of the Force and all :)

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...a combination of Gareth's idea lending a bit of inspiration and a picture I've been wanting to use as a class image for AGES have given me an interesting idea...

[Golden-Esque]

Ooooooooooooooh! I have a great idea for this one! The problem? Its going to require that I become intimate with an entire set of mechanics that I've never used before! Sounds like fun to me >:D.

[ErrantX]

Ooooooooooooooh! I have a great idea for this one! The problem? Its going to require that I become intimate with an entire set of mechanics that I've never used before! Sounds like fun to me >:D.

I've had to do that lately, I've never really worked with Incarnum or Binders before, and lately I've been leaving my comfort zone to learn them. It's a trip!

-X

[Xallace]

I've had to do that lately, I've never really worked with Incarnum or Binders before, and lately I've been leaving my comfort zone to learn them. It's a trip!

-X

And well worth it, I bet.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm sorely tempted to make a PrC for truenamers who wake up one day and suddenly realize "Wait a second...truenaming sucks!"

[FlamingKobold]

I'm sorely tempted to make a PrC for truenamers who wake up one day and suddenly realize "Wait a second...truenaming sucks!"

That sounds like an awesome idea. Call it the Tier-less something :smallwink:

On another note, are we allowed to post entries on other threads before submission?

[Golden-Esque]

That sounds like an awesome idea. Call it the Tier-less something :smallwink:

On another note, are we allowed to post entries on other threads before submission?

You probably can, but I'd say just submit it and ask all of the good people of the Voting Forums to critique it for you. We're all more then happy to do so, and the Contest is more about putting out Grade-A content for DMs and Players to use then winning anyway =D.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That sounds like an awesome idea. Call it the Tier-less something :smallwink:

Since posting that, I've been brainstorming other ways to make meta-PrCs for underperforming classes that realize that they suck, so here's what I have so far:

The Silent Judge, a former truenamer who realizes that trying to shape the universe with words just doesn't work and so becomes a paladin-esque figure who smites bards, casters using the Power Word line, etc.
The Muscle-Brained Jock, a former fighter who realizes that just hitting things really hard isn't good enough and develops Str-based psionic powers and other Charles Atlas superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower) like punching holes to the Ethereal and such.
The [insert name here], a former soulknife who realizes that his mind blade is inferior to a regular weapon and so learns how to infuse his psychic power into manufactured weapons instead.
And, on the completely opposite side of things, The Devotee of Vance, a former wizard who realizes (A) the original flavor of Jack Vance's books is better than the watered-down 3e spell preparation fluff and (B) while 3e wizards are more powerful than 2e wizards, there are a bunch of things 2e wizards did better, and so gives up a bunch of power for some Vance- and 2e-inspired tricks.
Which would everyone like to see most, if any?

[Arbitrarious]

Since posting that, I've been brainstorming other ways to make meta-PrCs for underperforming classes that realize that they suck, so here's what I have so far:

The Silent Judge, a former truenamer who realizes that trying to shape the universe with words just doesn't work and so becomes a paladin-esque figure who smites bards, casters using the Power Word line, etc.
The Muscle-Brained Jock, a former fighter who realizes that just hitting things really hard isn't good enough and develops Str-based psionic powers and other Charles Atlas superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower) like punching holes to the Ethereal and such.
The [insert name here], a former soulknife who realizes that his mind blade is inferior to a regular weapon and so learns how to infuse his psychic power into manufactured weapons instead.
And, on the completely opposite side of things, The Devotee of Vance, a former wizard who realizes (A) the original flavor of Jack Vance's books is better than the watered-down 3e spell preparation fluff and (B) while 3e wizards are more powerful than 2e wizards, there are a bunch of things 2e wizards did better, and so gives up a bunch of power for some Vance- and 2e-inspired tricks.
Which would everyone like to see most, if any?


Well I'm always partial to the Soulknife, but I think the Silent judge has a lot more potential from a fluff standpoint so I would go with that one.

[Golden-Esque]

In a dramatic taste of irony given my comments on the Onyxian Dreamer in the last Contest, I am going to attempt a Prestige Class based around the Shadowcaster. However, said Shadowcaster realizes that their little dive into Darkness might not have been the right choice ... :).

[Hyooz]

I've got the fallen druid PrC called, btw. It's not a metal-wearing fallen druid, so feel free to work that angle.

[Glimbur]

I'm considering a fallen Warblade, but I need to make it not too close to the Apostle of Peace. This could get interesting...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hmmm...what do people think of these ideas:

A Truename who was spoken the truename of the Universe itself, forever searing her throat with the awesome power of this most potent of names. Never again can she utter a sound, yet the cosmic power she wields may just make up for that loss...
The Once-Named, who have forsaken their own truename, turning their backs upon the universe. Those who were once truenamers themselves can no longer influence the world around them, but the words they speak, coming to the universe like the ghost in the machine, confuse reality in strange and horrific ways...

[ErrantX]

Ooooo, Djinn both of those are cool... but I'm going to have to go for the Once Named. That just seems more fitting to the concept of the contest that I have in mind.

-X

[Morth]

Okay... completely rethought the Perfectly Imperfect because something just didn't sit right... changing theories and making the Battletrance Fist, a monk who relinquishes mental and spiritual training and instead focuses on instinct and reflexes, learning to enter a trance of complete instinct that lets him outperform and the cost of no conscious decision.

[FlamingKobold]

Not sure what I'm going to do anymore. I like the idea of the Burning Hate, but Ive not decided on what way to go with it.

I considered having the character still follow Pelor and just become evil, but that's the most boring thing to do. Plus it would make no sense for such a character to have any bonuses other than different domains and maybe rebuking undead instead of turning. So I'm thinking of going the other way. The character would lose spellcasting powers granted by Pelor and, now mistrustful of gods, seeks to find a new planar power source. He/she would never consider worshipping anyone, and needs to be in control of her own fate. Thus he/she would turn to pact magic. What better way to lead the crusade against the evil in the church than by using a method that a)Pelor disapproves of and b) gives you dominance of the planar entity that you gain power from, rather than the traditional divine relationship, which is the other way around? I'd add in a mechanism that you gain more power based on how many divine spell levels you gave up. Thus, a 5th level cleric would get more out of it than a 5th level paladin, as they should saeeing as they give up much more.

However, this requires a careful reading of the word corrupted. The character doesn't change alignments, and indeed becomes even more devoted to their prior beliefs. However, they would be corrupted from the church's point of vieew, so I think it could work.

Thoughts?

[Hyooz]

I'd have to lean toward the Once-Named too, because a PrC that makes you mute has all kinds of problems. It's like an archer PrC where you gouge out your eyes. Thematic and cool, but just causes all kinds of problems.

[Lord_Gareth]

I have an announcement - my first child is male!

[FlamingKobold]

I have an announcement - my first child is male!

Congratulations :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

Aaand teaserpost for the Sworn to Sorrow abilities!

[Glimbur]

So, I think I have this mostly hammered out. I need a better name than "reformed murderologist" for a person who has given up violence (and the Sublime Way) in favor of negotiation and more subtle methods. Ideas?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So, I think I have this mostly hammered out. I need a better name than "reformed murderologist" for a person who has given up violence (and the Sublime Way) in favor of negotiation and more subtle methods. Ideas?

I don't know about that; "reformed murderologist" would make an amazing name for an even halfway-humorous class.

[Glimbur]

I don't know about that; "reformed murderologist" would make an amazing name for an even halfway-humorous class.

I think this class has more of a serious bent to it. On the other hand, I am giving a bonus to Forgery checks... Current idea is Apostate Sword.

[FlamingKobold]

Yeah, if you decide on a different name, someone should definitely make a humorous Reformed Murderologist.

Actual help: Forsaker of the Blade? Disciple of Peace? Warrior of Words? (Thought that one sounds more like a truenaming PrC...)

Edit: I'm not sure why they all have the word "of."

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Yeah, if you decide on a different name, someone should definitely make a humorous Reformed Murderologist.

I still haven't decided on an idea yet, so I might just do this one myself if nothing else clicks.

[Lord_Gareth]

Le sigh

[Insert token protest against joke classes here]

[Hyooz]

What exactly is your qualification of a 'joke class'?

Does a PrC need to require the character to kill the one he most loves for it to not be a joke, or is anything even remotely lighthearted inherently a joke?

[Lord_Gareth]

Generally speaking, anything meta automatically qualifies as a joke, or that smacks of OOC references (see: Sellout, Scion of Awesome, CW Samu - wait, that last one was WotC trying to be serious). Others include classes that, frankly, can only be jokes (see: Divine Prostitute, Reformed Murderogist, Naked Knight).

I don't demand dark and creepy. But honestly, the joke material here and in the monster contest (see: Taco Fairy) annoys the living hell out of me.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I have an announcement - my first child is male!

o.O

Congratulations. :smallbiggrin:


Generally speaking, anything meta automatically qualifies as a joke, or that smacks of OOC references (see: Sellout, Scion of Awesome, CW Samu - wait, that last one was WotC trying to be serious). Others include classes that, frankly, can only be jokes (see: Divine Prostitute, Reformed Murderogist, Naked Knight).

I don't demand dark and creepy. But honestly, the joke material here and in the monster contest (see: Taco Fairy) annoys the living hell out of me.

I don't know...I think the Naked Knight was quite good (with a touch of reflavoring for serious campaigns), and I could probably make you a serious Divine Prostitute or Reformed Murderogist without going to far out of my way.

[Lord_Gareth]

....I accept your challenge. Bonus points if you manage to finagle the divine prostitute for this contest.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

....I accept your challenge. Bonus points if you manage to finagle the divine prostitute for this contest.

Done. I might not call it "The Divine Prostitute," but it will be divine, and it will be a prostitute or other "lady of the night."

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don't know...I think the Naked Knight was quite good (with a touch of reflavoring for serious campaigns), and I could probably make you a serious Divine Prostitute or Reformed Murderogist without going to far out of my way.

Yeah, when I see "murderologist" my first thought is of a CSI-type investigator, and a tank-turned-skillmonkey PrC isn't too much of a stretch.

[Glimbur]

Yeah, when I see "murderologist" my first thought is of a CSI-type investigator, and a tank-turned-skillmonkey PrC isn't too much of a stretch.

It's certainly a weird class, as I mention in the spoiler at the end. Who makes a class based around not fighting in D&D? There are a lot of class abilities, but most of them are fluff or penalties to resisting the main shtick. Or bonuses for the main shtick, or spells that seemed cool at the time. What I'm trying to say is PEACH please.

[Arbitrarious]

I have an announcement - my first child is male!

Grats, what did you name him?


The best idea I've got so far is Shining Blasphemer(?) basically a Healer (MH) or other healing class that focuses on the more destructive aspects of positive energy.

[Fortuna]

I might get back into this contest for this time around. What to design, what to design...

How about a Sorc that renounces their heritage and power and devotes their energy into purging so-called 'unclean' energies from themselves and others? Mechanically speaking, a mage-slayer type of thing. I'll see what I can come up with.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Current idea is to have a meldshaper go about banishing souls, namely, his own.

[Hyooz]

Preliminary non-fluff of the druid turned destroyer is up!

[Arbitrarious]

Current idea is to have a meldshaper go about banishing souls, namely, his own.

You may look to the Necrocarnum adept in the book, I believe they had a method of stealing essentia from dead creatures. You could adapt that to your idea. You may also give the class a way to inflict level drain to grant them essentia. Tear away their soul to feed their power yadda yadda.

[KaganMonk]

This is just asking for a Soulfire Warlock, to steal a concept from the Dresden Files. Might just have to try it out.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You may look to the Necrocarnum adept in the book, I believe they had a method of stealing essentia from dead creatures. You could adapt that to your idea. You may also give the class a way to inflict level drain to grant them essentia. Tear away their soul to feed their power yadda yadda.

Actually, I'm thinking about them heading psychic, as psionics are one of the few truly "internal" power sources out there.

[Arbitrarious]

Actually, I'm thinking about them heading psychic, as psionics are one of the few truly "internal" power sources out there.

That could be quite good. Are you going to give them a fast power progression or stack meldshaping levels to get final manifester level?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That could be quite good. Are you going to give them a fast power progression or stack meldshaping levels to get final manifester level?

Yes. Come on, you didn't expect me to give everything away now did ya? :P

[Lord_Gareth]

The abilities for Betrayal (up to level seven, Traitor's Roar) are up!

EDIT: See also Loss, up to Funeral Keen.

[Glimbur]

PEACH of Battletrance fist.

Requirements:
BAB +3 means you can get in after Monk 4. That's not a big deal.
Deft Fist? It appears to be a terrible feat that requires several questionable feats to qualify for. If you want to require feats, consider something thematic and not an obvious choice for all monks. So, not Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike, but maybe the Combat Focus tree from PHB II?
Ok, monks fall. That's sensible.

The skill list is the same as the monk skill list. Does Perform or Concentration really belong here? I also question the knowledges and diplomacy. Maybe throw in Autohypnosis? Or is that antithetical to the point of the class?

d8 is fine.

Full BAB and all good saves? That's a bit sketchy. You've got features based on Ref, so keep that good. I'd drop Will to poor progression to show the loss of emphasis on mental control.

Weapon Proficiencies allows you to use gauntlets and flurry with them. Nice.

Battletrance looks a lot like rage. I like the lack of uses/day. I'm not sure it's good to have it start as a full-round-action to initiate; combats don't last very long and taking the first round to buff is annoying. Possibly have it start as a move or swift action to initiate, and later make it free?

Flash Step could use cleaning up; can a 10th level Battletrance Fist take a 10' step if he wants?

Battletrance Dodging will very rarely help. Attack rolls scale faster than reflex saves do.

Battletrance Reflexes is nice.

Battletrance Barrage is a bit unclear, maybe show us the original 20/15/10/5 becoming 20/20/20/15/10/5 and then 20/20/20/15/15/10/10/5/5/0. Also, that's a lot of dice to roll.

There are technically no dead levels, but some of them are pretty boring. Level 6, for example, isn't very impressive. Does this need to be ten levels long? Or could you do it in 5?

I don't know why anyone would take more levels in monk when this is an option. Still Mind is strictly worse than Mind Blank, Wholeness of Body isn't a big pool and can be covered other ways, ki strike(Lawful) isn't that big a deal to lose since you can use magic weapons (gauntlets) now, etc. I suppose you lose the flurry progression by taking this instead of more monk, but that's a trade well worth making.

[Hyooz]

Admittedly, not much of the Sisters of Sorrow is up, but an early PEACH never hurt anyone. I'll just focus on the flavor aspect of it, for now. Just kind of a stream of consciousness thing, nothing strict or mechanical.



The Sisters of Sorrow have an odd and uneven reputation. A group of travelling warrior-women, the Sisters spread themselves through the land, bringing suffering wherever they go - but, strangely enough, alleviating suffering as well.

Hoo boy... this kind of thing is a huge red flag in my mind. Attempting binaries like this is incredibly risky business. It's way too easy to screw up and end up with something that just contradicts itself, instead of being a curiosity or an interesting dynamic. Generally, I find it better to focus on one particular aspect, and allow ironies to show themselves through use, rather than trying to shine the spotlight on them.



One slays a red wyrm with the help of her adventuring companions and leaves the grateful village in tears of despair with her teachings of hopelessness and pain.


I'm sorry, but what? Why kill the wyrm in the first place then? Is the village not already hopeless and in pain because of the wyrm that's been plaguing them? This is what I was talking about in the odd binary thing. This Sister sees people suffering legitimate, real sorrow, saves them from the sorrow, then turns around and makes them despair again. Is suffering good? Or is suffering bad? Is only the Sister's particular brand of suffering good? Do we need to prevent suffering? Or bask in it? This organization makes no sense.


Another takes and breaks hearts - men and women - to teach youths the folly of loving too hard, too deeply.


Again, why? If the goal is to prevent possible suffering because of a deep love, isn't it preferable, from a suffering prevention standpoint, to simply caution them? The Sister tells her story, maybe? Instead of breaking hearts to teach a weird lesson?


Others try to help others through their pain by reminding them of it, allowing them to greive and move on with their lives.


This just doesn't make sense. I mean, to begin with it's a horrible therapy tactic to bring up the trauma if you're trying to help someone move past it. No, you don't pretend it didn't happen, but you don't remind them of it either. That has a tendency of making it worse. And if the end goal is the person moving on with their lives, then there are methods that don't require the "Hey, remember when your dog died yesterday?" tactic of dragging it out and making them feel worse.


But no matter the mask of sorrow that they wear, the Sisters are always given a wary welcome and a place to sleep, for they are, at least nominally, heroes and champions of the people, whether the people want them to be or not.

I guess?


The Sisters of Sorrow are always recruiting; each Sister is constantly on the lookout for women whose lives have been touched by suffering and pain. Aside from their sworn mission to help such unfortunates, these women represent opportunity, as all too often they are oppressed and beaten down, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and offering them a different path can encourage them to break free of their tormentor(s) and strike out on their own path. To this end, any given Sister may have several "apprentices" (commonly known as Suicide Squires) learning martial skills, the philosiphy of suffering, and other lore from the Sister in question while helping her in her appointed duties. Frankly, this is the most common method of becoming one of the Ladies Weeping (a title they sometimes introduce themselves by); the Sisters are not fools, and they recognize that, unless they train their new recruits, they won't be getting many of them.

Shouldn't the Sisters not want any new recruits? I think a lot of my confusion comes from not understanding this organizations goals or motives at all. What is the 'philosophy of suffering'? How does it relate to the life of an adventurer? Why would a woman, recently traumatized, want to learn this and go around making others sad?


That said, a martially inclined female sometimes seeks out the Sisters after a life-altering trauma, hoping to be able to deal with their suffering and help prevent (or cause) it in others. The Sisters welcome these recruits with open arms, testing them for any obvious or pervasive madness (serial murder is greatly frowned upon by the Ladies Weeping) before welcoming them into their order.


This! It's this kind of thing that just makes this confusing to me. Ladies who want to prevent suffering are just as welcome as those who want to cause it. Does this organization just welcome anyone sad? If people who want to cause suffering are welcome, why are murderers frowned upon? And who would come to these people for help dealing with suffering? Their entire mantra seems to be that suffering gives you power so keep suffering.


Of especial value are those who have forsaken codes of conduct and duty in the face of their pain - these the Sisters encourage, cajole, or intimidate into joining if at all possible, hoping to add another powerful member to their ranks.

Why are these especially valued? I can't think of any classes that gain power by forsaking vows (save this PrC contest). Usually a forsaken vow means they used to have power, but it was stripped from them. Wouldn't it be better to have someone who is suffering, but still living up to their code of conduct? Doesn't that show that suffering can be felt, and still dealt with? That it doesn't have to rule your life?

The initiation is what it is. I won't copy it here since, well, this is a site where kids can show up and I'd like to keep this post PG-13. I do have a quick question about it though. How would the initiation interact with a woman whose Sorrow was betrayal? She was betrayed by someone close to her, came to the Sisters for help getting through the pain, and then they beat the crap out of her. Seems... counter productive.

The mechanics of your classes are usually quite sound, but the flavor this comes packaged with is troublesome to me as a DM. If a player wants to play this class, I have to include this globe-spanning organization into my world. If she is going to seek them out, then they have to be a relatively well-known part of the world. I'll have to build at least one session around her recruitment and initiation, not including her apprenticeship as a "Suicide Squire" *shudder*. And then the initiation which... I have no idea how to even determine if she'll survive the night or not. And really, just ruling that the character doesn't survive and asking the player to roll something cheerful is preferable to dealing with Debbie Downer for the rest of the adventure.

EDIT: A brief dive into the mechanical side of things:


Funeral Keen (Su) [Seventh Level]: Pouring her grief and Loss into her voice, the Sister can let out a heart-breaking funeral keen a number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier. Hostile creatures (or creatures she otherwise designates) within sixty feet of her who can hear the keen must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + the Sister's class level + her Charisma modifier) or have their hearts broken by unimaginable Sorrow; they suffer a penalty equal to the Sister's class level on all rolls. Furthermore, a creature who fails their save by six or more instead dies immediately, their spirit broken by unending Sorrow. A creature that succeeds at its save, or that has already been affected by a Funeral Keen, cannot be affected again for 24 hours. This is a sonic, emotion-affecting effect (see sidebar, below).


Holy Mary mother of God. A 60' radius save-or-die-or-suck. ECL what... 12? Way OP man.

[Xallace]

Alright, so part of the Karmic Fugitive is up. I'd like to make it clear that this class is nowhere near finished, and should prove to have a little (or a lot) more kick to it by the time I'm done. The basic idea is there, though: Kick destiny in the face.

I wanted to follow a more blackguard-y mechanical route; that is, this should be a class that is open to those who want it, but should provide some bonuses if you had to sacrifice something to get there. In this case, if you relied on pre-destination to help you through (read: you were a diviner), you gain bonuses because you no longer have a pre-destiny, and as such things like Divination spells and Insight bonus no longer work for you (I forgot to put that in there; will do soon).

[FlamingKobold]

Man, you're kicking destiny in the face, he's punching destiny in the face, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147840) what next? :smallwink:

I really like the flavor, and the idea of just deciding to ignore your destiny. I'm wondering, however, why that requires you to be skilled with spontaneous arcane magic. Why bard and sorcerer but not martial classes or other spellcasters? That leaves me a bit confused, as I didn't see any indicator of that in the fluff. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I'm just unsure of the justification.

The surge mechanic looks cool, but I have a few questions. Can you use multiple surge points to get multiple feats at once? Or is it like heroics? Can you use these feats to qualify for normal feats? How about further feats gained by that class ability? For the additional 1d6, is it before or after you know the outcome of your roll?

Wow, this guy is very good at will saves. Half class level, charisma mod and no auto-fail on a one. That's very good against spellcasters, which is always a good thing. Sheer Force of Will and Free Thought get a thumbs up for me.

Deviance is cool, and makes you a good emergency "buffer." Does this also work with Can't Stop Me Now? If so, that makes you a great healer. Bring them back to life with no XP cost as an Ex ability?

I'm afraid of what Can't Stop Me ever will do, as it's predecessor looks quite good as it is. Overall, great job thus far.

[Xallace]

Man, you're kicking destiny in the face, he's punching destiny in the face, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147840) what next? :smallwink:

Piledriving destiny's face into Mt. Doom with a tsunami. It's the only logical extrapolation. :smallwink:


I really like the flavor, and the idea of just deciding to ignore your destiny. I'm wondering, however, why that requires you to be skilled with spontaneous arcane magic. Why bard and sorcerer but not martial classes or other spellcasters? That leaves me a bit confused, as I didn't see any indicator of that in the fluff. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I'm just unsure of the justification.

My justification was that spontaneous, Charisma-based casters alter reality through sheer force of will anyway, so they'd be most likely to have the willpower to alter meta-reality. But, I could switch up the pre-reqs and make it more like those classes in Complete Scoundrel that say "+1 level of existing class features."


The surge mechanic looks cool, but I have a few questions. Can you use multiple surge points to get multiple feats at once? Or is it like heroics? Can you use these feats to qualify for normal feats? How about further feats gained by that class ability? For the additional 1d6, is it before or after you know the outcome of your roll?

I will clarify within the text of the class, but in the meantime:
On Feats: Feats only last for one round, and you can only spend one surge point a round, so you wouldn't be able to gain multiple feats anyway. I should clarify "lasts until the beginning of your next turn," that make ease up the confusion. And no, they cannot be used to qualify for any kind of prerequisites.
On Check Results: You can choose to spend the point after you calculate the roll, but before the effects of the roll are declared. So for example, after you add up everything for an attack, but before the DM tells you if it hit or not.


Wow, this guy is very good at will saves. Half class level, charisma mod and no auto-fail on a one. That's very good against spellcasters, which is always a good thing. Sheer Force of Will and Free Thought get a thumbs up for me.

Will is kinda their shtick. It might come into more play later.


Deviance is cool, and makes you a good emergency "buffer." Does this also work with Can't Stop Me Now? If so, that makes you a great healer. Bring them back to life with no XP cost as an Ex ability?

I hadn't actually considered that... I don't think it's too powerful, especially after 10th level.


I'm afraid of what Can't Stop Me ever will do, as it's predecessor looks quite good as it is. Overall, great job thus far.

Well thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

Thanks for the look-see, Hyooz; I'll probably kill the radius on Funeral Keen down to thirty feet. Aside from that, a lot of what you're confused by will be explained in a sidebar or two (The Philosiphy of Sorrow at the very least). In any event, the Sisters are exactly as globe-spanning as any DM wants them to be. Their recruitment base isn't precisely gigantic, and not all women are going to be martially inclined or even competent, and there are certainly Squires who aren't going anywhere further in the organization (just as every organization has its base-line incompetents who aren't going anywhere). If the DM wants an army of the suffering, he can have an army of the suffering. If he wants two or three enemies in his campaign, the Sisters of Treachery and Torment are ready and waiting.

However, the statement involving reminding people of their grief; typically speaking, a Sister who is actually trying to help is attempting to help people work through grief. Sometimes, this means slapping someone in the face so hard with it that they can't go into self-denial anymore. Other times it means being a shoulder to cry on. The Sisters run a rather large gamut when it comes to how they "uphold" their Sorrow.

[FlamingKobold]

Xallace:

I like the new prereqs. I will save prereq is fitting. IF you want to limit this to spellcasters (and monks!) in core, the concentration 10 ranks is sufficient. If you want it to be more open, concentration 6 ranks would ensure that people devoted enough will be able to get in by level 10, so they can finish it pre-epic. However, those with poor will saves would still have to dip and take two not so common feats to get in.

I like the quote under the "Karmic Fugitives in the World" section :smallsmile:

Edit: Since you're so good at will saves, some sort of ability that is resolved by opposing will saves would be both flavorful and cool.

[Hyooz]

Fair enough. I'm sure it'll all make sense, especially with the detailing of the Philosophy of Sorrow.

[Bookmarked]

*Bookmarked exits shadows*

I've like, posted a PRC to be looked at, the Apatheist. I was wondering if someone could go over it and maybe PEACH a little? I could use a hand, frankly.

*Bookmarked enters shadows*

[FlamingKobold]

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS: There aren't all that many classes with good fortitude and will, so expect some dipping. Why knowledge (religion) higher than bluff? YOu don't care about religion, but all of your class features are about bluff... In the first special line, take out "either." As it is now, in the second special line, you lose all class feawtures from everywhere, but only if you cast divine spells. Maybe just say they lose spellcasting abilities?

Small skill list, few skills. sure.

The medium HD.



Apathy (Su): How is this supernatural? It's a bluff (Ex) followed by spell like abilities (Sp). This is a bad mechanic. You make a bluff check, and then the DM arbitrarily sets a sense motive DC? Maybe give those who have levels in classes that grant divine spellcasting a +6 circumstance bonus or anything. Also, sense motive doesn't really have much to do with "I like my god." This is a weird ability. The crowd mechanic is also messed up and non-sensical. Can you do this in combat? What are their bonuses if you do?

Faded (Su): Basically fluff. Not going to be productive all that often.

Suggestion (Su): This should also be spell-like.

Glibness: So you can use suggestion at will, for purposes that have nothing to do with your class, but you can use glibness, which helps you class features immensely, only once per day? Odd. Also, this is also spell-like.

Divine Spell Resistance (Su): SR 15 at level 10? Weak. SR 20 at level 13? Still weak. And it only applies to divine spells.

Conviction: Make it a circumstance bonus. How does sense motive really portray this at all? And, speaking of it, why bluff? You aren't lying to them... you're talking to them with logical argument. This entire class is confusing.

Inconspicuous: This is also spell-like.


Imperceptible (Ex): This is definitely not Ex. How does this fit the flavor of the class?

Proselytise: Denote what each ability is. First and third are Sp, second is Ex.
For the second abilty: This doesn't make sense. A heavily religious hamlet wouldn't have 30% of their people drop their religion just because you talked for 3 hours. Try to make this a more refined mechanic.

Overall, it's okay, but there's a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed. Good jub thus far.

[Glimbur]

Changed out the teleport at level 9 for something more thematic... and probably more powerful. Any thoughts?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Changed out the teleport at level 9 for something more thematic... and probably more powerful. Any thoughts?

I like it, but it seems a little limited in use, being single target and all.

I kind of feel that the Apostate Sword needs a set of abilities to regain some of the lost versatility that would come from maneuvers - maybe something like Incarnum?

[FlamingKobold]

Despite others talk about truenaming PrCs, I decided to do one anyway. I figures it sounded like more fun than the Burning Hate ideam anyway. I'm still thinking of wha to do as a name for the class, as right now it just says *class name*.

[Forever Curious]

Definitely considering making something for this.

THOUGHT: a Dread Necromancer/Necromancy Specialist PrC that uses undead for good instead of evil. Any ideas?

[DracoDei]

Either something with Deadless, or someone who only uses the corpses of evildoers, so that their bodies at least may atone in death for what they did in life, through forced conscription into the battle against ongoing Evil.

[Hyooz]

Alternatively, the necromancer could turn her talents toward making proper constructs rather than undead.

[Divayth Fyr]

Alternatively, the necromancer could turn her talents toward making proper constructs rather than undead.
Perhaps a True Necromancer who renaunces the creation of undead gets better at casting proper resurrecting spells and bolstering living allies/servants OR hunting the undead?

[ErrantX]

Perhaps a True Necromancer who renaunces the creation of undead gets better at casting proper resurrecting spells and bolstering living allies/servants OR hunting the undead?

True Necro, not so much, Dread Necro would be better.

Of course, True Necro could use an escape method. It sorta is a trap.

-X

[Hyooz]

I kind of wish I had the necromancer to effigy master idea before my storm druid idea. That'd be pretty sweet.

[FlamingKobold]

I like the necromancer to effigy master thing. As an aside, does anyone hve any views on the whatever-i-decide-to-call-it's class features/name?

[Forever Curious]

Either something with Deadless, or someone who only uses the corpses of evildoers, so that their bodies at least may atone in death for what they did in life, through forced conscription into the battle against ongoing Evil.

I can probably run with this, if I may.

[Glimbur]

PEACH of Spell Servant.

Entry requirements look workable, Eschew Materials fits fluff ok, could be cut if you'd like.

Very sparse class skill list, this is probably on purpose. Maybe consider adding Autohypnosis because this class seems to be about denying the self and focusing on the goal at hand; and autohypnosis helps with that.

HD is as expected. BAB and saves make sense.

Signature Spell: this is the point of the class. Ok.

SS: Caster Level hurts.

SS: Metamagic Cost 1 is powerful, and the disadvantages are easier to dodge than for Caster Level: just use a rod to metamagic other spells. It does hurt, but you know what you're getting in to with this class.

SS: Focus is only helpful if your signature spell has a save; Enervation seems like it might be useful to have as a signature spell but that means this class feature is a class detriment. Interesting, useful but with drawbacks.

Lucky Casting: That concentration check is trivial. To cast 4th level spells, and so enter this class, you are assumed to be 7th level. So this happens at ECL 10. That means a concentration check is 13(ranks)+~4(Constitution); so you cannot fail to cast a seventh level spell. Also, you don't know any 7th level spells at this level. Move the DC to 15+spell level or 10+2*spell level or even 20+spell level if you want to keep this ability. Saving spell slots is very strong.

Greater MM Reduction: See MM reduction, but even more so. I'm of the opinion that metmagic reducers and alternate payment methods are one of the more egregious problems with 3.5. This is really strong.

Involuntary Casting: At ECL 11, your will save looks like +8(base)+~3(resistance)+~2(Wis). That means this save is pretty trivial at the level it appears; and only gets easier as time goes on. Make it scale with character level if you want to keep this.

Apothesis: WHAT. Ooze HD and BAB are probably better than what you had earlier, though base saves are worse... except you keep your good will save. Also, you are immune to crits and have blindsense, which normally it takes spells to manage. The loss of ability to use equipment makes this a bad deal, were it not for one more thing...
You cast your signature spell at will with any metamagic you want on it. Say it's Enervation. Say furthermore, because I know I'm going to get this capstone, I take a lot of metamagic feats. Every turn at ECL 12, I could drop Maximized Empowered Quickened Split Ray Repeating Extended Enervation, and then a Maximized Empowered Split Ray Repeating Extended Enervation. That's, on average, 26 negative levels in the first round. Then 52 in the second. Or use Fireball and energy admixture it and just murder everything ever. Or hold off on taking this class for a few levels and cast so many Hold Monsters it is not funny. Or Telekinesis everything ever. This class makes blasting viable, moreso than even Incantratrix.

Suggestions: Throw out Lucky Casting. Consider Spell Immunity to your Signature Spell instead, either as a SLA or as a constant effect. Change up the DC on Involuntary Casting. Rework Apothesis; possibly scrap it entirely. I normally don't like full casting progression PrC's, but you give up enough here for it to be allowable.

[DracoDei]

Eh, I think turning into a living spell sounds pretty flavorful... put some caps/limits on the metamagic and it might be good (note this is based entirely on the above review, too tired to look at the actual PrC right now). :smallsigh::smallbiggrin::smallconfused:

[DracoDei]

I can probably run with this, if I may.

I wouldn't have suggested it if I didn't mean for you to use it...

[Hyooz]

I dunno. Usually transformation capstones are cool with me, but that one in particular seems somewhat out of nowhere. You're progressing along, getting really awesome at casting one spell, then BAM you're an ooze.

[Golden-Esque]

I'm still working on my Shadowcaster project for the contest, but I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping that someone more experienced than I in the dark arts can answer.

First, the Shadowcaster has "uses per day," but also assigns a number of casts per use; once if the mystery is used as a spell, twice if the mystery is used as a spell-like ability, and three times if the mystery is used like a supernatural ability. If this is true, are the following statements also true?

A 1st level Shadowcaster can use a 1st level mystery that functions as a spell once per day, a 1st level mystery that functions as a spell-like ability twice per day, and a 1st level mystery that functions as a supernatural ability three times per day.

A 7th level Shadowcaster can use a 1st level mystery that functions as a spell twice per day, a 1st level mystery that functions as a spell-like ability four times per day, and a 1st level mystery that functions as a supernatural ability six times per day.

Other then that, the Shadowcaster seems fairly straight-forward in what it can do. I have a concept for what I want to do with the Shadowcaster in the prestige class, but knowing how the Fundamentals and Mysteries work is vital :).

[Hyooz]

Are the italicized portions quotes from the book? If so, where are they located?

Basically, mysteries can be used a number of times/day depending on how they are cast. As you progress, your mysteries become 'easier' to cast. They start out being cast as arcane spells, then spell like abilities, then supernatural abilities. That can be altered by feats or whatever, but generally as you level up, your initiate/apprentice/master levels all change at the same time.

If you cast a mystery as an arcane spell, you can cast it once/day (before feats, etc.). If as a spell-like, twice a day, and as a supernatural, 3/day. (The chart on page 113 has number of casts/day laid out nicely.)

Most shadowcasters use the unofficial errata from the author (found here (http://lesenswert.wikispaces.com/Shadowcaster+Errata+by+the+author).)

Hopefully that helped.

[Golden-Esque]

Are the italicized portions quotes from the book? If so, where are they located?

Basically, mysteries can be used a number of times/day depending on how they are cast. As you progress, your mysteries become 'easier' to cast. They start out being cast as arcane spells, then spell like abilities, then supernatural abilities. That can be altered by feats or whatever, but generally as you level up, your initiate/apprentice/master levels all change at the same time.

If you cast a mystery as an arcane spell, you can cast it once/day (before feats, etc.). If as a spell-like, twice a day, and as a supernatural, 3/day. (The chart on page 113 has number of casts/day laid out nicely.)

Most shadowcasters use the unofficial errata from the author (found here (http://lesenswert.wikispaces.com/Shadowcaster+Errata+by+the+author).)

Hopefully that helped.

So, from what it says in the book, when you can use a Mystery once per day, its used like an Arcane spell. When you can use a Mystery twice per day, its used as a Spell-Like ability. When you can use a Mystery three times per day, its used as a Supernatural ability?

EDIT: The italicized parts are my examples. Sorry ^_^.

[Hyooz]

Technically the other way around, but yes.

[Stompy]

I'm throwing my hat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8245471&postcount=14) into the ring this time. Any and all comments/PEACHes/smileys will be accepted and appreciated, however, I may not be able to edit my class until Monday (school and all).

Also: My PrC's current theme song (http://www.last.fm/music/Wally%2520Pleasant/_/I%2520Wanna%2520Rock%2520You%2520To%2520Death?ac=I %20wanna%20rock%20you%20to%20death) (via last.fm)

[Glimbur]

Concern: your Arson Is Fun ability cannot actually burn things; due to things having hardness and fire being pretty bad against hardness. The easy fix would be to let it ignore hardness.

Let the improved sunder damage apply to unattended objects too?

The morale bonuses are pretty small... +1 isn't that big a deal when it's as hard to get as, say, destroying a building.

Sunder armor sounds... terrifying.

All in all, looks reasonably balanced. I might want full BAB on them.

[Stompy]

Concern: your Arson Is Fun ability cannot actually burn things; due to things having hardness and fire being pretty bad against hardness. The easy fix would be to let it ignore hardness.

Let the improved sunder damage apply to unattended objects too?

The morale bonuses are pretty small... +1 isn't that big a deal when it's as hard to get as, say, destroying a building.

Sunder armor sounds... terrifying.

All in all, looks reasonably balanced. I might want full BAB on them.

Thanks :), In order

-I'm not particularly learned in the RAW (or irl) of arson; I am under the assumption that given enough time (and possibly accelerent), this ability could cause most wooden buildings (say peasant hut) to burn.

-I thought it did. My bad :P

-I may drive those morale bonuses up when you exchange Ex-paladin levels :) I'm still thinking about the trade-offs that class will have to do for this contest. Also, the duration of Destructive Revelry may be extended, because 1 hour doesn't seem like enough time for it to be useful.

- I haven't written that part up, but I'm going to give armor enough HP to the point where it shouldn't break in 1 hit. I'm thinking that it should go down in maybe 2-4 sunders with a decent strength guy with a 2-handed weapon, depending on armor. Obviously, adamantine armor is going to be hard to break :) I'll think about it when I get around to writing that ability in full. (Also, I thought about using the sunder rules to do called shots but that would have been way too complicated.)

-I had a moral dilemma about the BAB on this class. I may return back to full BAB like it was originally, claiming that it is not broken because casters exist.

[boomwolf]

Intresting one. I'll try to come up with something


I see several problems in existing entries:

Most common is the lack of trade-in mechanic, that is required.

Less common is a slew of abilities, some underwhelming. too many abilities make it hard to read, understand or generally have energy to read it all. try to focus on less abilities with more flavor/mechanic aid in them.

And FlamingKobold's post is just unreadable. I have no clue what is going on there.

And naturally we got incomplete entries. but that's probably going to change.

[ErrantX]

Intresting one. I'll try to come up with something


I see several problems in existing entries:

Most common is the lack of trade-in mechanic, that is required.

Less common is a slew of abilities, some underwhelming. too many abilities make it hard to read, understand or generally have energy to read it all. try to focus on less abilities with more flavor/mechanic aid in them.

And FlamingKobold's post is just unreadable. I have no clue what is going on there.

And naturally we got incomplete entries. but that's probably going to change.

I'm keeping an eye out on things, and yeah, Boomwolf is correct: If you don't have a trade in mechanic, you're wrong. You need one, or your entry is disqualified.

-X

[boomwolf]

Well. this is hard. I got no clue what base class to work from, as all the more easily fitting ones have been taken.

Maybe a knight turned into chaos?
....

naaa...never liked the way he works...

Alternate blackguard? I never quite liked him.
...
...
...
...
God I am a genius. a "blackguard" for the evil paladin variants!
Now working on-"Whiteguard"

or a generalist neutral paladin for fallen of every alignment. (Balancadin?)

Or something else if I can come up with something...

[Glimbur]

Fallen Ranger who has turned his back on nature to help the city grow? Fallen Druid who has lost his alignment balance and is trying to import an aligned plane to the prime? Sorcerer who turns his back on his heritage and now studies... skills/divine magic/combat? Ninja turned negotiator? Feral (Cloistered) Cleric? Swashbuckler that.. uh... ok, I'm out of ideas.

[boomwolf]

Urban Ranger

I don't really see it. and Hyooz made a druid.

That's simply advancing another class. the nature of the sorcerer is "you simply got this power", not something you can actively renounce. (you CAN stop using it. but seriously it makes no sense not to use powers you got available no matter what means or ends you follow.)

negotiator classes are slightly awkward in the combat world of DnD, and you actually made a negotiator already.

[ErrantX]

Well. this is hard. I got no clue what base class to work from, as all the more easily fitting ones have been taken.

Maybe a knight turned into chaos?
....

naaa...never liked the way he works...

Alternate blackguard? I never quite liked him.
...
...
...
...
God I am a genius. a "blackguard" for the evil paladin variants!
Now working on-"Whiteguard"

or a generalist neutral paladin for fallen of every alignment. (Balancadin?)

Or something else if I can come up with something...

A whiteguard, that's a neat idea. Or a paladin that doesn't turn to Evil, but falls to Chaos. Or a Hexblade that changes sides and uses his luck and hexes for good purposes.

-X

[boomwolf]

A whiteguard, that's a neat idea. Or a paladin that doesn't turn to Evil, but falls to Chaos. Or a Hexblade that changes sides and uses his luck and hexes for good purposes.

-X

Paladin that falls to chaos exists in complete divine. forgot the name.

Hexblade in his normal self can use these things for good. yaknow-fighting evil as most adventurers do.

[ErrantX]

Paladin that falls to chaos exists in complete divine. forgot the name.

Hexblade in his normal self can use these things for good. yaknow-fighting evil as most adventurers do.

Holy Liberator falls to CG, I'm saying CN. A Chaos Paladin. Hexblades have a non-good alignment thing, I was thinking of instead of using their ill luck for good purposes, I'm saying they use good luck to boost their party and themselves. I dunno, just thoughts I was having, figured I should clarify.

-X

[Morth]

Fallen Ranger who has turned his back on nature to help the city grow? Fallen Druid who has lost his alignment balance and is trying to import an aligned plane to the prime? Sorcerer who turns his back on his heritage and now studies... skills/divine magic/combat? Ninja turned negotiator? Feral (Cloistered) Cleric? Swashbuckler that.. uh... ok, I'm out of ideas.

A non-gentlemanly/elegant swashbuckler? Maybe one focusing on two-handed weapons instead of finessable ones?

[KaganMonk]

A blackguard that decided being evil wasn't such a great idea. Decided to convert back, but the paladin orders wouldn't have him.

Paladin > Blackguard > Whiteguard

[Sereg]

God I am a genius. a "blackguard" for the evil paladin variants!
Now working on-"Whiteguard"

That is definately something that I've felt needed to exist.

[DracoDei]

- I haven't written that part up, but I'm going to give armor enough HP to the point where it shouldn't break in 1 hit.
The hp for armor (or at least shields) is already defined in the DMG, isn't it?

[Glimbur]

Thanks :), In order

- I haven't written that part up, but I'm going to give armor enough HP to the point where it shouldn't break in 1 hit. I'm thinking that it should go down in maybe 2-4 sunders with a decent strength guy with a 2-handed weapon, depending on armor.

You could just treat armor as being an inch of the relevant material. That gives it 30 hp and hardness 10. Mithral is hardness 15, adamantine is hardness 20. They all have the same hp, which means mountain hammer -> broken stuff. Enhancement bonuses generally add +2 hardness and +10 hp per.

Take an ECL 13 destructive reveler who got in via a full BAB class. BAB = +11, so three attacks. Add a bonus attack from Ruinous Exchange. Assume a 22 Str score, which is a mite low. Assume a +3 weapon, an extra +5 from bard/buffs/etc. Full Sunder looks like 25/25/20/15 for 2d6+3d6+17 a hit. Average damage/swing is 34.5, or 24.5 per hit on nonmagic armor. That means a regular breastplate or whatever takes two swings. The breakpoint for taking three swings is anything past +1. So against anyone seriously invested in armor the armor probably won't drop after one round. That's not even including mithral or adamantine armor.

Factors that would help the reveler include power attack, which depends mostly on how easy the armor sunder check is; martial maneuvers which I suggest simply not allowing to work, and an adamantine weapon which changes the math a lot and means enemies are wearing at least +3 mithral, at least +1 adamantine, at least +6 iron/steel (yeah right), or are unarmored in short order.

tl;dr Treat it as 1" of the relevant material with the standard hardness boosts for enchantments and armor should last a while unless hitting it is easy, mountain hammer works, or adamantine weapons are a factor.

[Stompy]

The hp for armor (or at least shields) is already defined in the DMG, isn't it?

Armor is not defined because normally you can't sunder armor period. (At the very least, you can't in any core or splatbook I know.) Shields are sunder-able as per core though.

[Lord_Gareth]

All non-Corruption class features are completely up.

[Glimbur]

PEACH of Sisters of Sorrow

You need a trade-in mechanic to be a legal class for the contest.

Female Only? I don't really see why, but whatever.

BAB requirement suggests you should be a martial type to enter. I don't see how being good at hitting people is related to Sorrow. Similarly, the required feats and proficiencies don't seem to correlate with the class features or fluff.

They're clearly not a skill-focused class. I'm not sure why Hide and Move Silently are class skills.

d10 hit die? I suppose, given their full BAB preference, they are martial types.

Heartless Strike is a significant debuff, and is really powerful if used on somebody that's already suffering. That said, it isn't usable very often per day.

All the sorrows give significant resistance to surprise, which is a powerful ability at level 6. The second save and especially the third save give powerful effects, especially given that the sister has to make zero effort to activate the ability.

Friendless Tongue is a 3rd level spell at will at ECL 8. It's useful, fits the theme, and isn't overpowered.
Fear is Nothing is nice and flavorful.
Eternal Masochist is situational but nice. Fits the flavor.

Incite Paranoia is weird and situational.
Grief is Stronger than Death is really nice... once per week.
Mind Lash means you can kill disable many things in a standard action. It feels significantly more powerful than the other abilities at this level.

Traitor's Roar is a bit confusing; does the attack on its allies happen immediately after the strike or on the victim's next turn? It's flavorful and seems about right, power-wise.
Funeral Keen is brutal. AoE, significant debuff, scaling save... it's mean provided your foes are vulnerable to it.
Consumptive Voice is kind of weird. Please clean up the wording to more clearly show that it doesn't cause dehydration; and starvation is not very intimidating at ECL 12. Fatigue and exhaustion are significant, but starvation is a few d6 per round at worst.

Duchess Deceitful, and the other capstones, are not very impressive. +2 inherent is nice ECL 14, loss of aging is mostly a fluff thing, and the free magic item is weird and doesn't make sense. Lady Loss is the best because it helps you use your powers more than the Cha boost from any of the capstones does.

I'm split between Sorrow and Torment as the most powerful choices... the question is whether you want to be able to kill nearly anything in a few rounds (ego whip is brutal) or try to kill everything with an AoE.

Unyielding Sorrow makes sense and is of reasonable power. I'm glad that the bonus is typed because it limits crazy stacking.

Stoicism is helpful, I would expect at least a +3 Cha mod from characters taking this class and DR 3/- is nice. Mettle- (only for fort saves, did you mean this to be the case) is kind of good, and the immunities at level 8 are helpful especially immunity to stunning and paralysis.

Share Pain is really really good. I would change it to an immediate action to use, instead of a swift action.

Ten Thousand Teardrops is weird. You have a full BAB martial class which focuses on emotion... and also explosions of ice. 8d8 at ECL 11 is scary to wizards and d6 classes... but rogues have evasion. The damage would be reasonable on a standard action ability, but seems high for a swift action.

Armor of Ice is powerful and sorta fits the fluff.

Peace of Suffering is useful; sleeping and breathing are annoyances that are expensive to solve. Eating and drinking aren't a big deal.

Suicide Queen is lackluster.

Overall, I don't see how the fluff and the crunch tie together in places. Why is this a full BAB class? Why can they cause explosions of ice and piercing damage?

What is an emotion affecting effect?

Aside from some outliers (Funeral Keen or Mind Lash), this doesn't seem very powerful. Were I, for example, a Crusader, I would rather take more Crusader levels than ten levels of this. Maybe a fighter would be interested, but... fighter.

[Hyooz]

Anyone bored enough to PEACH my Scion of the Storm?

[dyslexicfaser]

Anyone bored enough to PEACH my Scion of the Storm?

I don't claim to be very good at it, but here's my take on it:

Simply speaking, the fluff isn't bad (I like a storm PrC that doesn't suck as much as the Stormcaster) but I'm afraid you went too far in the other direction; it's too strong. Full spellcasting advancement, plus a new ability at every level, plus better saves and BAB than the wizard?

The flat +5 DC (by level 10) on your element by itself can be pretty nasty, especially when coupled with the -2 for them being in your storm.

Maybe the Call Storm should be concentration-based? Which can be gotten around with familiar shenanigans or whatever, but at least it wouldn't be a free 3d6 (6d6, 9d6, etc. once you gain the ability to call up storms simultaneously) every round while you do other things.

The Inner Storm should have some other qualifier. Celerity's fine, and it's thematic, but what does it matter if you're fatigued after the fight's over?

That's all I've got.

Would you mind returning the favor?

[Hyooz]

Of course not.

I like the idea of a class for those who get possessed by the 'demon weapons' of legend. Demon weapons have always been pretty cool to me, and I like the idea of the class. Good flavor. Might have issues in a DnD setting though, unless specific cursed weapons are introduced by the DM. Admittedly, having one of these weapons is pretty much the only entry requirement, but it might be a problem.

Skills seem fine. Why a d8 HD? This is pretty much a pure martial class, d8 is going to be a downgrade for pretty much any class wanting to come into this.

Eating souls at first level is pretty powerful. You could have this as soon as ECL 6, and killing things without the chance of rezing this early is pretty strong. The temp HP effect is cool and flavorful, but requiring a Wish to revive at this level is really good.

Fast Healing is also cool

Empty Heart might be too specific. Consider just making them immune to mind effecting... effects?

Saki is really cool. Flavorful, useful. Just straight up cool.

Doesn't Empty Mind really screw over the Saki ability? I can't intimidate anymore...

Oh, ok. Mind-effecting immunity came later. Ignore previous statements.

Why fire and acid to break his regeneration? I know it works on trolls, but there doesn't seem to be a specific reason for it here.

Overall, a pretty good class for what it is. One thing though, is that it seems to lack much in the angle of, like, the blade actually taking control. You still have full control at the end here, as far as I can tell. Maybe you should be compelled every now and again to do bad things, or something, because as is, it kind of drops the ball in that respect. I just have a cursed sword that gives me cool stuff.

[boomwolf]

Well. got a new idea. but not sure I'll be here to post it when its done.

The Antimage. a (usually) former wizard that got rather pissed on magic and is now dedicated to countering, dispelling and braking magic.

[ErrantX]

Well. got a new idea. but not sure I'll be here to post it when its done.

The Antimage. a (usually) former wizard that got rather pissed on magic and is now dedicated to countering, dispelling and braking magic.

Why does that make me think of this guy?

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/72190/spellbreaker_qjpreviewth.jpg

Either way, a good plan. I encourage it, down with the mages!

-X

[boomwolf]

thats what I aimed for.

posting partial class (with hope of completeing it later this week. it wont be done today.

And yes. nearly every ability there is scailing. got an issue?

AND over 15 new spells dedicated to antimage. (granted that 9 are the unsummon line that reflects to the summon spell lines thats not hard.)

entering new deta by infinite edits (internet cafe. can go down any moment. safty mesures.)

[Hyooz]

There's way too many unfinished and illegal entries at this point for my liking. Even Djinn just reserved a post and vanished.

Sad day.

[ErrantX]

There's way too many unfinished and illegal entries at this point for my liking. Even Djinn just reserved a post and vanished.

Sad day.

Agreed. I'm going to go through them tonight and send PM's to those who are illegal still.

9 days folks, let's get this together.

-X

[Hyooz]

Let's see... the finished, legal entries so far, from what I can tell:

Battletrance Fist
Apostate Sword (depending on how strict the trade-in requirement is. you get stuff for having initiator levels)
Scion of the Storm
Apatheist
Cassandric Seer

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Apostate Sword (depending on how strict the trade-in requirement is. you get stuff for having initiator levels)

I wouldn't count that, myself; every class grants at least 1/2 initiator level, so even if you trade in all of your martial adept levels you can still gain benefits even from a few levels of commoner or (the more likely entry) a few fighter levels. If it were changed to "levels in a class granting full IL progression" that would work.

[Xallace]

Yeaaah, I don't think I'll be able to finish mine in time.

[Golden-Esque]

There's way too many unfinished and illegal entries at this point for my liking. Even Djinn just reserved a post and vanished.

Sad day.

Its just kinda tricky with finals weeks starting this week to the first week of May for most people : \. That's pretty much my issue at the moment.

[FlamingKobold]

Its just kinda tricky with finals weeks starting this week to the first week of May for most people : \. That's pretty much my issue at the moment.

Exactly. I deleted my post, and it seems unlikely, but possible, that I'll finish something on time.

[Glimbur]

I wouldn't count that, myself; every class grants at least 1/2 initiator level, so even if you trade in all of your martial adept levels you can still gain benefits even from a few levels of commoner or (the more likely entry) a few fighter levels. If it were changed to "levels in a class granting full IL progression" that would work.

Could I get a ruling on this? I like it how it is now, but if I have to change it to be legal I will.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Could I get a ruling on this? I like it how it is now, but if I have to change it to be legal I will.

Even something like "IL from full BAB classes" or something would work, I think; the issue is that right now, it's impossible to not have IL, even if it's only IL 1 or 2 and you don't get something from it.

[DracoDei]

Is it relevant that Sword-sage is 3/4 BAB?

[Glimbur]

Even something like "IL from full BAB classes" or something would work, I think; the issue is that right now, it's impossible to not have IL, even if it's only IL 1 or 2 and you don't get something from it.

You could be a Swordsage 5, then trade in all your swordsage levels for Apostate Sword levels. That will give you IL 0. That would be smart because your sword sage levels are not worth very much now that you can't use maneuvers... were it not for you getting things by keeping them around. I made 1-2 not help mostly to encourage people to take ToB classes before Apostate Sword, because that's how the fluff goes.

Re: Swordsage BAB: that's why you only need +3 BAB to get in to Apostate Sword, so that Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage could all get in after 5th when they meet the skill requirement. They don't all share one social skill as a class skill that I wanted to use, which is why you can get in via Diplomacy or Sense Motive. The diplomacy entry is probably stronger due to how class abilities later on work... maybe I should throw a bone to the Sense Motive crowd. But I already have so many abilities...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You could be a Swordsage 5, then trade in all your swordsage levels for Apostate Sword levels. That will give you IL 0. That would be smart because your sword sage levels are not worth very much now that you can't use maneuvers... were it not for you getting things by keeping them around. I made 1-2 not help mostly to encourage people to take ToB classes before Apostate Sword, because that's how the fluff goes.

Point. Okay then, I'm appeased. :smallwink:

[ErrantX]

Could I get a ruling on this? I like it how it is now, but if I have to change it to be legal I will.

Apostate Sword - Yes, this needs a clarification, albeit a simple one. Simply say a full martial initiator class, and that's fine. The req was class levels, so this change will make it legal.

People on the list:
Lord_Gareth- Sir, you can't have any pudding if you don't finish your fluff :smallbiggrin:
Djinn_In_Tonic- Simply need to finish it, I guess. Not much here.
Xallace- Yeah, I know you're likely not going to finish, but yeah, the class is unfinished all over the place. You know what you need to do. :smallsmile:
dspeyer- You need to finish the fluff and provide a conversion mechanic.
dyslexicfaser- You need to finish up your fluff as well and provide a conversion mechanic.
Stompy- Just gotta a few last little bits in the fluff left.
boomwolf- Fluff and conversion mechanic as well.

-X

[Glimbur]

Apostate Sword - Yes, this needs a clarification, albeit a simple one. Simply say a full martial initiator class, and that's fine. The req was class levels, so this change will make it legal.

It has been fixed. Also, small static bonuses to skills! Hooray!

[Hyooz]

Hooray! Static bonuses are my favorite kind of static.

[dyslexicfaser]

Apostate Sword - Yes, this needs a clarification, albeit a simple one. Simply say a full martial initiator class, and that's fine. The req was class levels, so this change will make it legal.

People on the list:
Lord_Gareth- Sir, you can't have any pudding if you don't finish your fluff :smallbiggrin:
Djinn_In_Tonic- Simply need to finish it, I guess. Not much here.
Xallace- Yeah, I know you're likely not going to finish, but yeah, the class is unfinished all over the place. You know what you need to do. :smallsmile:
dspeyer- You need to finish the fluff and provide a conversion mechanic.
dyslexicfaser- You need to finish up your fluff as well and provide a conversion mechanic.
Stompy- Just gotta a few last little bits in the fluff left.
boomwolf- Fluff and conversion mechanic as well.

-X

Conversion mechanic?

[Glimbur]

Conversion mechanic?

You have to be able to turn levels in a previous class into levels in your class, like fallen Paladins can trade in paladin levels for blackguard levels.

[dyslexicfaser]

Well, I'll be damned.

I just read the part about 'becoming corrupted', I didn't realize we needed a conversion mechanic.

That'll teach me to read guidelines more closely.

[Hyooz]

Shouldn't be too hard. It won't take much rearranging for your class, I don't think.

[boomwolf]

boomwolf- Fluff and conversion mechanic as well.

-X

Well, I TOLD you it was not finished. I don't have regular internet access. (military service and all.)

Hopefully I could finish today.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

To busy with life and work. Probably won't finish. May also be absent for a contest or two. :smallfrown:

[Hyooz]

To busy with life and work. Probably won't finish. May also be absent for a contest or two. :smallfrown:

Man, nobody's ever going to win that banner. </terrifically selfish outlook>

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm actually bowing out of this one. Sorry ya'll.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I may or may not be able to get a class up in time: my muse has been difficult later, so it seems unlikely. Best of luck to those still working, however.

[boomwolf]

Sadly I must withdraw as well, as my internet assess will be over in slightly more then an hour, yet the class will not be done unless I devote at least three more hours to it.

Damn military service ruining my chances at true glory.

I do however intend to vote and come back to next contest. (unless voting will be over before 21st of may, because I am facing the possibility of having NO internet accesses until then.)

[Golden-Esque]

I got a good chunk of the Prestige Class done before my own personal life hit the fan, so I am going to try to finish it up in time for the contest. I'd hate for there to be a drop in contestants for all of the people who look forward to this :(.

EDIT: I can't help but feel like I'm cheating with this one, guys. You give up class features (Mysteries, to be exact), but you don't completely forgo the use of Mysteries .... Hm, I'll leave it to the community when I finish, I guess.

[Golden-Esque]

Alright, I'm slowly putting up the Dawnseeker PrC. I'm working to get it up as fast as I can! Its mostly formatting stuff, and I'm running around like a mad-man as it is! I just thought people would like to see where the Dawnseeker is coming from.

Up:
Class Rules and Mechanics, All Fluff, Prereqs, 3 of 7 Paths of Light

Working On:
4 of 7 Paths of Light.

[Glimbur]

A few minor questions about the Dawncaster:


A Fundamental empowered this way looses the [Darkness] descriptor and gains the [Light] descriptor. Changing their Fundamental’s type does not require an action; it is a part of casting the Fundamental.

Does this do anything by itself, or does it just change the keyword so other things interact differently with mystery?


**Illuminated Mind (Ex):** The Light bestows wisdom and knowledge upon those who seek its truths, and with time, they learn more secrets then ever imagined. Starting at 3rd Level and at every two levels thereafter, a Dawnseeker gains a +1 bonus to their Intelligence. This bonus is untyped and is a permanent increase to their Intelligence score.

Why is this in here? It seems powerful and I don't understand how it fits the fluff.


The tendril of Darkness deals damage to a number of creatures equal to the total number of Mysteries the Dawnseeker knows (this does not include Mysteries that have been traded for Truths). The same creature can be targeted more than once. Make a ranged touch attack against each target; all of these attacks must be confirmed as successes or fails before damage is determined. Each attack deals 1d6 damage per successful ranged touch attack the Dawnseeker made using this ability.
It seems strange that the damage is based on how many successful hits you have, rather than how many attempts you have. This will take slightly longer in-game to use, and seems like an unnecessary nerf.


The tendril of Light heals a number of allies equal to the total number of Truths the Dawnseeker knows. The same creature can only be targeted once per use of this ability. A selected creature is healed for 1d6+1 Hit Points per three Caster Levels he or she possesses.
Caster Levels... caster levels the Dawnkeeper has? Or the target has? It's unclear.

Math: if you let them stack healing on one target you could get (10d6+10)*6, which averages to 250 healing. That's the same as a Mass Heal, but on only one target and it doesn't heal conditions, just damage. This class is available at ECL 8, so this huge heal would be available at ECL 17... coincidentally the same time Mass Heal is. The cleric's caster level might not be 25 at level 17, but the difference between 170 and 250 (average) hp is not always critical. I'm not sure how expensive this is to use, you would seem to have 6+6+5, or 17 Truths/day. I'm not sure what advice to give, but 6d6+6 on each party member is not very impressive at ECL 17. Maybe the fact that this comes with wildly variable damage to enemies as well tips the scales.

[Golden-Esque]

Does this do anything by itself, or does it just change the keyword so other things interact differently with mystery?[/d]

It only changes how the Fundamental acts with other Fundamentals. Spells with the [Light] descriptor can be used to counteract the [Darkness] descriptor, and that's really the ability's only function. I just didn't want to leave Fundamentals out, but I couldn't see the purpose in making up new Fundamentals for the class when they're fairly weak abilities to begin with.


Why is this in here? It seems powerful and I don't understand how it fits the fluff.

Ever see in the really old portraits during the Renaissance where people who are gifted or intelligent have a halo of light around their heads? That's why :). Also, the Shadowcaster portion of the class still benefits from a high Intelligence. In the end, you're getting a +4 bonus to your Intelligence, which is a +2 bonus to your modifier. I didn't think it was that powerful, personally.


It seems strange that the damage is based on how many successful hits you have, rather than how many attempts you have. This will take slightly longer in-game to use, and seems like an unnecessary nerf.

I prefer to think of it as being unique ^_^. EDIT: Changed this in the new version, see below.


Caster Levels... caster levels the Dawnkeeper has? Or the target has? It's unclear.

Should be the Dawnseeker's caster levels. I'll fix that, good catch :).


Math: if you let them stack healing on one target you could get (10d6+10)*6, which averages to 250 healing. That's the same as a Mass Heal, but on only one target and it doesn't heal conditions, just damage. This class is available at ECL 8, so this huge heal would be available at ECL 17... coincidentally the same time Mass Heal is. The cleric's caster level might not be 25 at level 17, but the difference between 170 and 250 (average) hp is not always critical. I'm not sure how expensive this is to use, you would seem to have 6+6+5, or 17 Truths/day. I'm not sure what advice to give, but 6d6+6 on each party member is not very impressive at ECL 17. Maybe the fact that this comes with wildly variable damage to enemies as well tips the scales.

You know, when you put it like that it really does seem unimpressive. Your comments have really made me think about this ability. It was supposed to be a flashy ending ability, but when you sit back and think of it, because of the way the mechanics for the Dawnstrider class works, you really cut back on your options when you take the class.

Like, take it this way. A character that goes Shadowcaster 20 gets 20 Mysteries. When you take this class, you start with 7 Mysteries and 1 Truth at 8th Level. As you get more Truths, you loose Mysteries, so when you're at 17th Level, you have 10 Truths and 2 Mysteries, while a Shaowcaster of the same level would have have 17 Mysteries. This is not including any multiple times you could have used said Mysteries if they were low-level.

Granted, I like when Prestige Classes have a downside. If they're just better versions of Base Classes, were's the excitement? I don't like when you're forced to take Prestige Classes instead of going full in their normal class because of efficiency. However, I also think that such a substantial loss makes the class bad, and here's my idea to remedy it, tell me what you think:


Apocalypse of Light and Darkness (Su): Light and Darkness bitterly intertwine, bitter foes housed within a Dawnseeker’s body. With great focus, you unleash both, devastating your foes. At 10th Level, a Dawnseeker learns the ultimate technique of their kin; lashing out with Light and Darkness. Using this ability requires a full-round action The Dawnseeker lashes out at their foes with tendrils of Light and Darkness, as described below.

The tendril of Darkness deals damage to a number of creatures equal to the total number of Mysteries the Dawnseeker knows (this does not include Mysteries that have been traded for Truths). The same creature can be targeted more than once. Make a ranged touch attack against each target; all of these attacks must be confirmed as successes or fails before damage is determined. Each attack deals 1d6 damage per Mystery that the Dawnseeker knows to the targeted creature.

The tendril of Light heals a number of allies equal to the total number of Truths the Dawnseeker knows. The same creature can be targeted more than once. Each tendril heals its target for 1d6+1 Hit Points per three Caster Levels the Dawnseeker possesses. In addition, the tendril of Light can remove one status condition of the Dawnseeker's choice from each of its targets, as if by the Heal spell. A target has one condition removed from it per time it is targeted by this ability.

A Dawnseeker can initially use this ability five times per day. However, the number of times per day that the Dawnseeker can use Apocalypse of Light and Dark is reduced by an amount equal to the difference between their Dawnseeker levels and Shadowcaster levels.

Quick Notes:

The tendril of Light can strike the same target more than once.
The tendril of Light removes 1 status condition per target.
The tendril of Darkness's damage is based upon the Dawnseeker's number of Mysteries rather then number of successful hits.
Times per day has been changed to equal 5 - the different between their Dawnseeker and Shadowcaster levels. Yeah, this doesn't encourage multiclassing outside of these two classes, but I'm cool with that :smallcool:.


EDIT: All fluff is now up.

[Glimbur]

Apocalypse looks more useful now.

You are taking a significant cost to take this class; mysteries are presumably useful or you wouldn't pick them and now you can't use some of them. Truths are not yet revealed, so I can't say how cool they are. This does mean you need Truths to not be repeats of mysteries, but I suspect you were already planning on that. I'm impressed at your ambition in making so many new powers.

[Golden-Esque]

Apocalypse looks more useful now.

You are taking a significant cost to take this class; mysteries are presumably useful or you wouldn't pick them and now you can't use some of them. Truths are not yet revealed, so I can't say how cool they are. This does mean you need Truths to not be repeats of mysteries, but I suspect you were already planning on that. I'm impressed at your ambition in making so many new powers.

Truths don't replicate Mysteries; they're their own abilities. But yeah, I am sort of kinda starting to build a reputation for myself that likes to add a lot of choice to their Homebrew. I like knowing people who use myself have the tools to use my creations in many different ways. See the Seropaenean Avenger (last contest) for an example of that xD.

Oh man ... those Hallows were ... something else.

EDIT: 6 of 21 Truths are available.

EDIT EDIT: Illumination of Fortification has one of the best names ever, in my humble opinion. It sounds like something Yugi would call one of his clutch Cards xD.

[Stompy]

Sorry, been busy with school and other things (my internet also went down for a week), but I am working on mine, and it should be completely done either today or tomorrow. I have to work on notables, and well as fluffing up the mechanics. (I think that's it.)

I see a bunch of big, intriguing, and original entries in here; it'll take me around 5 days to cast my vote XD.

[Golden-Esque]

Just finished uploading the last of the Dawnseeker, if anyone's interested. I'm looking for some feedback on the Truths, especially some of the more ... unique ones (Shatter Form comes to mind).

[ErrantX]

Two more days folks, let's see what we can get out of this contest!

-X

[Samb]

Hmmmm I was thinking of a psionic PrC that sacrifices futher mantle access and mantle granted abilities to enhance the two ideals she has left.

Too late for anothe entry?

[Glimbur]

Knock yourself out. Watch out for the problem most people are having, which is that you have to be able to trade in class levels:
the idea is that whatever class you make, it must contain a mechanic that allows you to trade in levels of a single class that exists in print (base or prestige) to gain levels of your new prestige class

[Samb]

Knock yourself out. Watch out for the problem most people are having, which is that you have to be able to trade in class levels:

That's what I'm a bit confused about. Is it class features of one class for new features of this homebrew? Or is it more like retro substitution levels?

[Glimbur]

That's what I'm a bit confused about. Is it class features of one class for new features of this homebrew? Or is it more like retro substitution levels?

It's like what a blackguard with lots of levels in paladin can do. Ex-paladin 15/Blackguard 1 becomes Ex-paladin10/Blackguard 6.

[ErrantX]

Glimbur summed that up very nicely. Yeah, you've got time, but not much!

-X

[Golden-Esque]

It's like what a blackguard with lots of levels in paladin can do. Ex-paladin 15/Blackguard 1 becomes Ex-paladin10/Blackguard 6.

Wait ... what? I thought the entire point of this contest was just to have a major trade-in 0_0.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Wait ... what? I thought the entire point of this contest was just to have a major trade-in 0_0.

Nope. It was supposed to be the Blackguard's mechanic. Part of the reason I didn't bother to finish my entry is that that sort of mechanic is all but impossible to balance properly...you can get an ability at 10 level with trading, or 17 level without. How do you balance that?

[Golden-Esque]

Nope. It was supposed to be the Blackguard's mechanic. Part of the reason I didn't bother to finish my entry is that that sort of mechanic is all but impossible to balance properly...you can get an ability at 10 level with trading, or 17 level without. How do you balance that?

Yeah, I agree :(. Well, I guess I'll keep my entry up if anyone wants to see it or use it or whatever, but it'll be disqualified by those rules, I guess : /.

[ErrantX]

Well, sadly then it seems like this contest is a bust, and the one who went well out of his way to pimp it to me dropped out of it. Meh. We'll still do the voting, but I must say that I am saddened by this contest and all of the dropping out and such.

-X

[Glimbur]

The best answer I came up with to Djinn's lament is giving nice things to people that don't trade in their levels. Then the choice is short-term or long-term power, which is still far from ideal from a class design perspective.

Another approach would be to only allow an amount of levels above a set number to be traded in; Rogue 7/ Reformed Rogue* 1 could go to Rogue 5/Reformed Rogue 3 but not to Rogue 0/ Reformed Rogue 8.

*What does reformed rogue even mean? Rogue as a class is so nebulous that this would be a bad idea to try to make.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, sadly then it seems like this contest is a bust, and the one who went well out of his way to pimp it to me dropped out of it. Meh. We'll still do the voting, but I must say that I am saddened by this contest and all of the dropping out and such.

-X

I must say...go with your instincts for contests, rather than listening to us. It levels the playing field if none of us know what's coming.

Another part of the issue is you based it on a very strange mechanic with only one example in official or unofficial classes. Personally, I always love the themed contests most, or the ones with very ambitious concepts (Bard class, for example). Contests based on mechanics are very meh to me.

[ErrantX]

Oh well, better luck next time! I've got a small list of ideas to go with, and there is another Hybrid Theory contest coming in the future too. So let's see what happens.

-X

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Oh well, better luck next time! I've got a small list of ideas to go with, and there is another Hybrid Theory contest coming in the future too. So let's see what happens.

-X

Oooh, I can't wait for the Hybrid Theory to roll around again, as it's honestly what got me interested in 'brewing to begin with.


It is a shame what happened with this contest. I know I had some ideas down for fluff, but I was never satisfied with what little crunch I could throw together. Timing may also have been a factor, as May is kind of a crunch time for some people.

[Stompy]

Another part of the issue is you based it on a very strange mechanic with only one example in official or unofficial classes. Personally, I always love the themed contests most, or the ones with very ambitious concepts (Bard class, for example). Contests based on mechanics are very meh to me.

Seconded. I liked the theme, but the crunch felt WAY too constricting.

EDIT: I'm done with my PrC now :smallsmile:.

[ErrantX]

Last day folks, midnight tonight we're done and I will post a voting thread with the legal entries. Triple check your work, make sure you're good!

-X

[Hyooz]

Another Worth a Thousand Words contest might be cool

[ErrantX]

Another Worth a Thousand Words contest might be cool

That's Djinn's baby, or someone else who'd like to run it. But yeah, it was a neat idea.

-X

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Another Worth a Thousand Words contest might be cool

Sure. Got distracted by school and RL drama, but I can get another up.

[Lord_Gareth]

*Would make hot, sweet love to a new Thousand Words contest*

I'm in an angelic kinda mood here lately...

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*Would make hot, sweet love to a new Thousand Words contest*

...have you been cheating on my with my own contest, Gareth? :smalltongue:

Also, you? Angelic? HAH! :smallbiggrin:

But I'll consider it...

[dyslexicfaser]

Yep, I'm pulling out as well.

I just can't for the life of me think of a good conversion mechanic.

[ErrantX]

Voting thread is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8412056)

-X

[Golden-Esque]

Just as a comment, I deleted my class from the list of Prestige Classes, since it doesn't meet the rules for the contest. I did, however, make its own post on the forums, which you can view here, if you choose. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8412143&posted=1#post8412143)

And now, I'll go back to finals / birthdays / benders until the next contest ^_~.

[Lord_Gareth]

...have you been cheating on my with my own contest, Gareth? :smalltongue:

Also, you? Angelic? HAH! :smallbiggrin:

But I'll consider it...

Like I said, I've had angels on the brain here lately. I'm thinking some kind of summoner or mage, really, perhaps focusing on the idea of angels as divine soldiers...or slaves.

[DaTedinator]

Yeah, the crunch for this contest was what kept me out. I loved the idea, it was just... hard.

[ErrantX]

And the winner of the contest is... Hyooz and the Scion of the Storm! Congrats Hyooz! Excellent class! :smallbiggrin:

New contest forthcoming today, so keep an eye out! This time I -promise- not to make it on an obscure mechanic :smallredface:

-X

[Hyooz]

Huzzah! Can't wait for the new contest.

If there is any downside to these contests, it's that I find myself hoarding PrC ideas on the off-chance a contest comes up where I can use them. >.> They do tend to get fleshed out and fine-tuned more than they would otherwise, so that's not so bad.

[Stompy]

New contest forthcoming today, so keep an eye out! This time I -promise- not to make it on an obscure mechanic :smallredface

If I'm allowed to unfairly influence the theme, how about, "PrCs that start with 'M' and end in 'erchant'". :smalltongue:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Not this is a mechanic/theme I can get on board with. :smallbiggrin:

[ErrantX]

Alright, new contest is up:

PrC Contest XIV: Power is a Gish best served Bold! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152106)

Check it out, ask questions, let's make this one explode!

-X

[Hyooz]

... that might be the best contest title ever.

[Edge]

I've been waiting for one these I might actually get an idea for. I'll probably be in on this one.

[ErrantX]

... that might be the best contest title ever.

Hehe, I was rather proud of it myself, actually :smallcool:

And oh Djinn, make sure you have a banner ready, this one may cause some real good homebrew to spring up to challenge your reign! :smallwink:

-X

[Lord_Gareth]

"Damn but would you shut. Up? I'm trying to think here."
- Kyria Thorne, Voidmage Husher

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

And oh Djinn, make sure you have a banner ready, this one may cause some real good homebrew to spring up to challenge your reign! :smallwink:

-X

*Cue mustache-twirling, self-praising, super-villain appropriate bragging*

As if, ErrantX. As if there has been a every been solo entry contest I have entered that I did not emerge from clutching the still-beating hearts of my deceased rivals. As if.

:smallbiggrin:

[Lord_Gareth]

*Cue mustache-twirling, self-praising, super-villain appropriate bragging*

As if, ErrantX. As if there has been a every been solo entry contest I have entered that I did not emerge from clutching the still-beating hearts of my deceased rivals. As if.

:smallbiggrin:

We'll see this time, Djinn. By the by, check your mental pockets, 'cause I just stole your void-as-uberstealth concept and gave it some serious plastic surgery.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

We'll see this time, Djinn. By the by, check your mental pockets, 'cause I just stole your void-as-uberstealth concept and gave it some serious plastic surgery.

CURSE YOU, GARETH! I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT IF IT WEREN'T FOR YOUR DEVILISH, SEDUCTIVE CHARM!

:smalltongue:

[Lord_Gareth]

Hey Errant, your quotable table is missing a spell/power increase section. For shame.

[ErrantX]

Hey Errant, your quotable table is missing a spell/power increase section. For shame.

Fixed. :smallredface:


*Cue mustache-twirling, self-praising, super-villain appropriate bragging*

As if, ErrantX. As if there has been a every been solo entry contest I have entered that I did not emerge from clutching the still-beating hearts of my deceased rivals. As if.

:smallbiggrin:

Hear that folks? He just called you all out!
http://southparkstudios-intl.mtvnimages.com/shared/sps/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/import/season_08/sp_0805_04_v6.jpg
That means this is ON! It is ON!

-X

[Volthawk]

This contest idea intrigues me, and I wish to learn more.

I'm in.

[Lord_Gareth]

I have only eight minutes left before I must leave for work (those kittens won't manufacture themselves), so I'ma work mostly on fluff, and not on table.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I have only eight minutes left before I must leave for work (those kittens won't manufacture themselves), so I'ma work mostly on fluff, and not on table.

...you're manufacturing kittens now? :smallconfused:

[Hyooz]

I hate to do this, but this has happened the past several contests and its starting to bug me a little.



7) No reserving posts. Feel free to tweak your class, but the initial post must include the basics.

Just for future reference.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, I've got everything up to and including Becoming a Voidmage Husher up. I'll be back around 4:00 my time to start work on the table 'n' suchlike.

[Stompy]

I hate to do this, but this has happened the past several contests and its starting to bug me a little.

This is most likely happening because early exposure isn't a bad thing, and more importantly, they may be afraid that someone will take their PrC concept first. (Honestly, I'm scared someone will take mine, so I'm going to have my crunch up most likely tonight.)

[Doc Roc]

I'm guessing I'm not allowed to just post swiftblade? ;)

[Frozen_Feet]

I just might give a jab at this. I'm currently musing of a psychic transformational class, centered around the theme of Genius Loci. Lets see what I can do.