GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread II [Archive] - Page 5

Samb

2010-06-29, 11:08 PM

PEACH for Samb's PrC Fate's Blessed

Overview
I love the flavor and general mechanics of the class. It makes luck a very viable mechanic and the general push/pull of saving vs. spending luck rerolls is very nice. However I feel the Caster prereqs and advancement is terribly out of place. I could almost see it if it were designed for a Bard, but for a Cleric not so much. Everything about this class screams rogue: D8, 6 skills per level, huge skill list, 3/4 BAB, Good Reflex. Scoundrel's Luck is the only class ability that is even related to spell casting. The Bottom line is the pairing's just not working for me.
I had just been contemplating taking out the cleric and ardent stuff and going pure skill monkey and glass cannon route. Thing is I only have one feature that is geared for skill.

If I were using this class in my world (which I just might) I would require two luck feats and some other roguish ability (maybe trapsense?). Then I would remove the caster progression and advance Sneak Attack at levels 1, 4, and 7. Then you could either completely change scoundrel's luck or make it work with SA instead.
Yeah Hyzoo already pointed out that the casting stuff felt out of place. Maybe replacing it with sneak attack progression is the way to go. Still auspicious strike has the potential to greatly increase damage making sneak attack progression a bit overkill. I had originally meant this to be for rogue/ardent or rogue/cleric entry but my entry requirements are a bit off.

Beginner’s Luck
Love this ability.

Thanks. It let's you always have a decent skill for everything even if you didn't invest ranks into it.

Easy Luck
Not sure this is necessary, but with as often as you're using Luck rerolls it sure is nice.
For spamming luck rerolls really.

Auspicious strike
To me this is one of the core mechanics that makes the class work. It's also one of the major reasons why I would get rid of the caster stuff.

Lucky charm
The other ability that really makes the class shine. This ability also happens to be super strong. Strong enough that advancing caster levels really worries me from a balance perspective.

Yeah the caster levels are out of place..... but like I said, it was for rogue with cleric/ardent dips. Still I think it is strong enough to stand on its own.

Fate’s friend
Huge boost to the Luck Mechanic. I'm almost sad to see it though. It makes it too easy for a Fate's Blessed to decide when to use his rerolls. It takes away from that agonizing spend/don't spend idea you were going for. I would give serious thought to changing this ability.

Hmmm I think if anything I will make the the luck bonus +3 since using a luck reroll already cuts the effectiveness of auspicious by one. I will keep the "know results" feature though as I think it encourages people to use rerolls while knowing that using rerolls will decrease luck bonuses further down the road.

Fortune 500
Like the ability, but don't care for the name. It's not a big deal, but I find the reference a bit jarring.

hey you were the only only one to get this reference. No one got my reference to Harold and Kumar go to White Castle. Disappointing.

Scoundrel's Luck
Clever Idea.

Maybe change this to maximize damage rolls for one round of I get rid of caster levels. Looks likely.

Lucky Break
Expands upon the auspicious strike mechanic, which is nice. But do you really think he needs caster progression with abilities like this?

I'll have to change the name too since TESD used this in his Sell-out homebrew. I changed this to a flat luck bonus since this could make you very hard to kill.

Hot Streak
Complicated ability, but the general idea is neat enough it's worth hammering out the problems. I think I understand how it works, but lets see. So if Jack used a reroll to roll a nat 20 on a reflex save in round one, he could then spend another reroll to automatically roll a nat 20 on a will save in round two. Or would he only be able to use the ability again if rolling another reflex save?
It is as powerful as it sounds. I need to specify it better. Yes, if you used a reroll on a save and it was successful then you duplicate the results (not the roll itself) on the next turn. Even if the the save is different. If you do not have to make a save on the subsequent round then this effect is wasted. You can change targets each round, if any modifiers change (ie luck bonus, power attack etc) it will not affect the result.

So a Fate's Blessed with a lucky vorpal short sword could make use of Fortune 500 and Hot Streak to cut heads off round after round until he is out of luck. In theory that is.

Anyway thanks for the PEACH, after hearing yours and Hyzoo's advice I think I will distill it further.

Samb

2010-06-29, 11:55 PM

Forever Curious

2010-06-30, 12:25 AM

Edits made. Re-PEACHES and new PEACHES welcome.

Hyooz

2010-06-30, 12:38 AM

I glanced over the new version, and it seems most of my PEACH from before still applies. Thought I have to ask why you toned down Channel Shadows so much. It feels slightly more thematic now, but has lost quite a bit of the extra versatility this class gave rogue-types. If you wanted to limit it to just Illusion spells, I'd say grant them the whole of the school, in gradual chunks.

In case you missed my earlier PEACH, it was here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8792568&postcount=956)

I'd appreciate any PEACHes people might be able to throw my way.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-06-30, 11:41 PM

Yet another revamp on Fate's blessed. Now with SA progression and refined parameters for Hot Streak.

I could really use a PEACH on my creation's capstone, as I think its a cool capstone, but really needs to have a robust ruling to work.

Sure, I can take a quick glance it at. I have an idea in mind for the wording on Hot Streak that will probably make more sense than the previous attempts, but I'll read what's currently up for it first.

Entry Requirements/Casting: I liked the original idea of it being an odd sort of cast-y rogue, but seeing the +2d6 sneak attack for entry and no casting advancement despite the need for a domain or mantle makes me a sad panda. If you keep the +2d6 sneak attack requirement, I'd go ahead and give them full casting. Otherwise, I'd probably lower the sneak attack requirement down to +1d6 or even none, throw up some skills in place of that and then offer them Unseen Seer's style of bonus damage dice instead. It would give a strong incentive to people to have at least one level of rogue/spellthief or whatever to do so, but is not strictly mandatory for entry. The extra luck feat needed should probably stay, though.

Skills/BAB/Saves: I don't see any issues with the skills, but the saves and BAB look funky with the class only being seven levels long. Probably just me and more the system's fault than yours.

Beginner's Luck/Easy Luck/Bonus Luck feats: These two "lucks" kind of clash in that one makes it easier to use luck feats and the other makes it better not to use them. I'll check to see if this is still the trend, but it kind of rubs me the wrong way to see it. Individually, their effects are very nice, but unless Complete Scoundrel says you can only blow one luck feat on any X roll to begin with, you should probably mention if Easy Luck would let me reroll two saves if my first reroll turns up terrible. The bonus luck feats are fine, though.

Auspicious strike/Extra Fortune: Extra Fortune is nice, but I'd almost think that turning the luck rerolls into per encounter uses may be better for how everything flows together than just adding some extras per day. For Auspicious strike, it is unnecessary to say you get both a luck bonus to attack and critical confirmation, as the bonus from the attack roll already adds to confirmation in the same way that your bonuses from strength, BAB, size, and the like add to confirmation rolls. If you meant for the bonuses to stack, though, (i.e., 2x luck rerolls left to crit confirmation), you should mention that. Otherwise, just drop that line.

Lucky charm/Fate’s friend: For Lucky Charm, I'd switch it to say that your luck rerolls per day become rerolls per encounter and mention that that changes how Extra Fortune functions, too. It would help you keep your bonuses for keeping your rerolls unspent, but it still allows you to blow them if need be but be ready for the next encounter at full +whatever. For Fate’s friend, I'd change the wording of the last sentence to say "Whenever you use a luck reroll on a skill, save, attack, grapple, caster level check, bananaphone, wheelbarrowing monkey check, whatever else you want, that roll also gains an additional +3 luck bonus (which may or may not stack with other luck bonuses, your pick, Samb)."

Yeah, that's wordy, but it at least tells you where the bonus is going. It's also how that sort of thing is usually formatted.

Fortune 500/Scoundrel's Luck: Still love Fortune 500. Yeah, it's strictly better than the feat, but it's nothing to terribly bad. I'm still not a fan of Scoundrel's Luck. The maximization in general just kind of bugs me and seems odd. I think that, especially due to your little fluff in the ability, it would make more sense that if you have only 7 luck rerolls, you get twice as much when you use that "7th" reroll and go down to 6. Either you get to reroll twice and pick between those two rolls or the bonus that that reroll adds to skills or what have you from Auspicious Luck is doubled, or both. Just my two coppers.

Lucky Break: It seems odd that Lucky Break doesn't eat up luck rerolls or anything at all, but I'm not complaining. Just kind of odd. Eh.

Hot Streak: The wording is better, but that sort of mimicry still doesn't sit quite right with me. I'd almost rather this give cumulative bonuses to using luck rerolls round after round, as that gives me a better impression of an actual hot streak. Other than that, I don't know.

Xallace

2010-07-01, 01:19 PM

Well, I'm gonna be back to my computer the day after tomorrow, but on the interim I've been thinking about possible entries into this contest. Would love to hear if any of the following are decent enough:

Ironbreacher: It is a point of contention for the fey that mortals seem increasingly interested in the use of their biggest weakness - iron. As this horrible material winds its way into everything from architecture to jewelry on the material plane, the courts find themselves increasingly unable to cope with the change and their influence among mortals dwindles significantly. To counter this, powerful fey lords invest their mortal servants just a little bit of faerie magic and the task of working their will into ironclad environments.
(The name is a placeholder.)
(Would require trapfinding and some skills associated with traps and locks; characters gain supernatural abilities that would clear the way of metal obstructions, from traps to locks to iron golems.)

Winterwind: As above, but the Winter Fey have produced their own brand of agent to deal with the increasing amount of iron on the material plane. Winterwinds become like their namesake: cold, sudden, icy; iron becomes brittle at their touch, and they move through danger with the grace of a breeze.
(Would require warlock levels and some thieving and stealth skills. Along with abilities similar to the Ironbreacher, they would gain more winter-themed powers: the ability to turn Eldritch Blasts into freezing winds, obscuring snow when they move, lowering the hardness of metal objects by freezing them, etc.)

Geist: Many thieves seek to become like ghosts; practically invisible, silent, as though they could slip through walls and doors undisturbed. A small band of thieves has taken this idea one step towards the literal - using magic to become incorporeal and unnoticeable so as to more easily take what they want.
(Would require stealth and thievery skills, plus the ability to cast some transmutation and possibly necromancy spells. The benefits of this class would include limited incorporeality, the ability to manipulate corporeal objects while incorporeal, and other abilities inspired by ghosts [even including things like ghostly possession!])

boomwolf

2010-07-01, 05:00 PM

Well...

This sure looks like a great opportunity (or should I say excuse?) to me to stop slacking off and finish my goddamn Mimic PrC...

Unlike what you would expect, it has nothing to do with the mimic monster.

A bit like chameleon, but it mimics a specific individual. the dream of any infiltrator doppelganger or changeling. (or any other infiltrator really. but they can easily disguise as their intended foe.)

So, instead of following one of multiple sets of abilities (ala chameleon), he gains bonuses and abilities based on these of his mark.
The marking is a bit complex and all. but its very flexible. and very favorable, and has immense potential to be truly like your mark at higher levels.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-01, 05:12 PM

Alright, I'm going to start PEACHing. If people ask for an early PEACH, I'll be happy to bump you up higher in priority, but otherwise I'm doing top to bottom. I think I saw Hyooz request a PEACH but that was a few days ago and I don't know whether or not someone's already gotten to him, so for now I'm just going to start with Rauthiss.

The Cover Array - Rauthiss
Huh. I'm not entirely sure why a Rogue would want his equipment invisible but not himself. That seems odd. Yeah, you could do some trickery with it, but it would be better to actually have that power rather than bluff about it...

Becoming a...
"Social based" seems like an odd thing to say in character. Otherwise, seems fine.

Prerequisites - So... be a 5th level Rogue? Should be something here that shows that someone has gone out of their way to qualify for this.

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Why no Knowledge (Local)? Also, considering this is a semi-magical class, Knowledge (Arcana) seems oddly absent. Otherwise, seems fine.

Invisibility Knack - OK, it's the schtick of the class. I'm still not convinced that this is actually useful.

Shrouded Armor - Wait, why is it conditional on an opponent attacking him? Especially considering it's always active? You should just say that a Covert Array wearing invisible armor gains a +2 competence bonus. Also, it being a competence bonus seems rather odd. Also, does this work for armors with the Glamered special ability? Seems like it should.

Sneak Attack - 3/10 on Sneak Attack; that's pretty weak. Considering that you can't be invisible for these class features, that's kind of troubling.

Persistent Invisibility - That's pretty cool, I like this one.

Shrouded Weapon - So you get, for example, +4 to attack, then +3 to attack, then +2 to attack, and finally +1 to attack? Eh, seems alright. Lots of bonus, takes a while to build up, probably works out nicely enough.

But the obvious question here is - why would you not get this bonus when you yourself are invisible? I mean, you certainly can't be harder to see when you're visible but your weapon isn't.

Inherent Invisibility - So it can't be dispelled and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity? Alright, that seems decent enough.

Stubborn Invisibility - That's pretty useful, cool.

Forever Invisible - Nice, very nice.

Unseen by the Eyes of the Magus - Uh. Hrm. I mean, OK, RAW is unclear here, but does anyone actually play with having Detect Magic see an Illusion aura where there's something under an Invisibility spell? Honestly? And if they do, the Covert Array ought to get this much sooner than 8th.

Infinite Invisibility - Uh. Reread the rules for supernatural abilities, and get back to me on this.

Like a Jaybird - The name's a little weird, but this is fairly nice in terms of avoiding action issues. Feel like it should come sooner.

Unexpected Strike - Uh. K. this will probably not ever get used, you know that, right? Rogues usually use TWF and Sneak Attack to deal lots of damage. Unless someone goes out and buys a Scythe with a lot special abilities that trigger on a critical, this is a waste of time - for a full-round action, you'd much rather get your 5-7 attacks with your 5-7 applications of Sneak Attack, than getting one attack with one Sneak Attack and double damage on the weapon dice and your Str modifier...

Playing a...
I don't think anyone who is worried about being attacked is caring too much about guests being armed in D&D. After all, a Stilled, Silent spell cast with Eschew Materials basically cannot be stopped with anything less than an Antimagic Field - which shuts down Invisibility Knack too.

Combat - Uh... not really. I mean, yeah, you have more AC - which rarely matters anyway - but you have less Sneak Attack, and one of the better ways of getting Sneak Attack to work is denied to you. You do not seem to have the advantage in combat over a straight Rogue.

Advancement - You need at least 13 levels devoted to entering this class and playing it; 7 levels of Artificer aren't really going to do all that much for you.

Resources - Uh. Well, OK, except that Absorb Weapon is a 2nd level Assassin spell. Mostly, this ability is just not that impressive in the world of D&D.

...in the World
Not... that unique. That's the main thing with this class, really, is that they don't really get much that's all that special. No one really cares about making objects invisible when compared to the ability to make people invisible.

Notables - Both? You imply that there were only two notable Covert Arrays ever, which is odd. Yes, we typically only bother writing about two, but there are usually presumed to be more.

The Rest
You should finish it.

Conclusion
The class is well done. The abilities are paced neatly (barring perhaps Unseen by the Eyes of the Magus), grow upon each other, and synergize nicely. But mostly... their main schtick is not something I find particularly interesting, nor do I feel like anyone in the world of D&D would be overly impressed. Making objects invisible just isn't that big a deal. You could probably play this class, and be half-way decent with the Shrouded Armor and Shrouded Weapon abilities, and you might be able to abuse Unexpected Strike if you really try, but I feel like a pure Rogue would be better in combat, and a basic Rogue/Assassin would be better in combat and at infiltration.

ErrantX

2010-07-01, 05:15 PM

Well, I'm gonna be back to my computer the day after tomorrow, but on the interim I've been thinking about possible entries into this contest. Would love to hear if any of the following are decent enough:

Geist: Many thieves seek to become like ghosts; practically invisible, silent, as though they could slip through walls and doors undisturbed. A small band of thieves has taken this idea one step towards the literal - using magic to become incorporeal and unnoticeable so as to more easily take what they want.
(Would require stealth and thievery skills, plus the ability to cast some transmutation and possibly necromancy spells. The benefits of this class would include limited incorporeality, the ability to manipulate corporeal objects while incorporeal, and other abilities inspired by ghosts [even including things like ghostly possession!])

This. Do this :D

-X

DragoonWraith

2010-07-01, 05:20 PM

Yeah, gotta say, the Geist sounds the coolest and most fitting.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-01, 08:20 PM

Knight Miraculous - Lord_Gareth
OK, this is creeping me out from the quote. Kudos on that.

Anyway, "reasonable freedoms"? Sounds a little weird. Otherwise exactly what I've come to expect from you - excellence.

Becoming a...
You're squicking me a little here, but overall this is, again, excellent, and I do believe that was the point.

Prerequisites - Non-good? I think this probably qualifies itself for true Evil here. Unlike the vast majority of classes to hold that moniker. I don't think you need to use and/or since prereqs assume a non-exclusive or (indeed, the English language as a whole generally does, though this is by no means consistent, like most of the language). Anyway, I like that you avoid allowing Assassin's Stance to qualify here. Good stuff.

The Rest
Well... you need to finish this one. Obviously.

Shade Touched - Forever Curious
Image and quote a very cool, nice.

Anyway, sounds very cool, nice.

Becoming a...
You might want to title this section "Becoming Shade Touched" since the class name is basically an adjective and I feel like it would sound better. I'm... probably the only one who actually thinks about these things though.

Anyway, this sounds good, though you're missing an 'a' in "Even few bards...".

Prerequisites - Haha, so I'm not the only one to require Darkstalker. Nice.

Class Features
Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - An impressive list, but nothing out of place; it's a Rogue PrC after all. 6+Int, d6, 3/4 BAB, and good Ref are basically stock-standard, so no comment there.

Chilling Touch - Huh. This has the same progression as a Rogue's Sneak Attack, but deals its damage regardless of circumstances. On the other hand, it's subject to resistances... eh, eh. It's better than Sneak Attack I think, by quite a bit, but it's also not overpowered. Just a note that this quite strong.

Darkened Perception - Fitting.

Channel Shadows - Very, very nice. Fun spells, especially at-will. Thumbs up.

One with the Dark - Dark is a decent Template, though not as good as many think (you have to read it's Hide in Plain Sight carefully). Still, as a class feature, it's not bad.

Nimble Shroud - Nice, minor, but nice.

Frightful Nocturne - Very nice, very fitting. I like this one a lot.

Vexing Gloom - Very strong SR, plus the thing about Light spells is awesome. Fitting and appropriate, I like it.

Concealing Shade - You have a typo in your bolding here. Anyway, very nice feature, I like it.

Embrace of the True Dark - The rules for changing are inconsistent. You say it's 1/day, but then you say you can use it for 2xCha rounds (actually, you say "times", but it should be rounds) per day, and need not be consecutive (but you can't actually use it non-consecutively if you can only switch 1/day). Also, the Plane Shift 1/day means waiting 24 hours to shift back, which is... less than useful. 2/day would be nicer.

Playing a...
Ranged? Why ranged? Chill Touch, being better than Sneak Attack in general, means you have just as much a place in combat as a normal Rogue.

Combat - In combat, this character is basically a Rogue, with less reliance on denying Dex. Whether that means ranged attacks or TWF is pretty much up to the player...

Advancement - Except that you can't actually Hide here without some way of gaining Concealment or Cover, because the Dark template doesn't actually do that. You should probably add the Shadowdancer's form of HiPS somewhere.

Resources - Except, of course, in game, since a DM would be mad to give you any meaningful discounts. Breaking WBL is dangerous.

The Rest
You have to finish this!

Conclusion
You really like the Dread Necromancer, don't you? I mean, this... Chilling Touch ~ Charnel Touch, One with the Dark ~ Lich Body, Frightful Nocturne ~ Fear Aura, plus the fact that your last class was basically a perfect match for the Dread Necromancer (though it could be entered by a lot of classes), heh. Not a criticism, just commenting; that's not really a problem. Anyway, the abilities are cool and fitting, but they all seem pretty minor. This doesn't seem like it would play much different from your standard Rogue, except that you'd have the ability to throw Images everywhere and could avoid getting Light shown on you. It certainly works, but I dunno, I'd hope for a bit more. Embrace of the True Dark certainly helps with that, but it is at level 10...
Well, that's all for now.

Hyooz

2010-07-01, 11:50 PM

Let's PEACH us a Mimic. I know its early, but catching things early in the design process helps. Plus I'm bored. And DragoonWraith's is intimidating right now.

Mimic

Entry Requirements: ...Skill Focus (Disguise)? I guess it's better than a lot of other options out there, and actually costs them something, but it just feels like a wasted Feat >.< Hopefully there's lots of uses of Disguise through the class abilities. That would make this better. The second special requirement is also a bit weird... to qualify with a spell, does just knowing ONE illusion or Disguise Self or Veil spell qualify? What if I'm qualifying with an item, if it's not on my person, it seems like I suddenly lose all class abilities because I don't qualify anymore. This seems like a risky requirement.

Skills: Looks like the rogue skill list and 8 + Int skills, so a rogue type won't lose anything in this department.

Mimic Mark could use some tweaking here and there. The action to set up the Mark is either way too big (one round) or trivial (one round where I can be doing other things... without any mechanical way to determine what takes my attention off of him.) Also, I can't do this in combat, so if I get surprised, it seems highly likely that I won't have a bunch of class features. (But I'll reserve judgement on that for later.)

How long does the Mimic Mark last? Until I mimic someone else, I guess?

Spell Mimic isn't great. I'm a 6th level character (let's assume for a moment I have no spells yet) and now I can cast 1st level spells!... assuming of course my mark has cast them in front of me! Starting around Mimic level 5 your caster level actually out-races your character level, which is kind of fun... and might actually make this an oddly amusingly good choice for a Wizard. At ECL 15 I have more than doubled my spells/day in basically every spell level, have a caster level of 20, and 9th level spells. The only thing this doesn't advance for a wizard is spells known but given enough money... this isn't a problem.

Miiiiiight need to tweak this some.

Skill Mimic is kind of underwhelming. If I was a skillmonkey type coming in, this is ok... I mean, (ECL + 3)/3 is a decent bonus, don't get me wrong. The whole "only if he's done it before" thing keeps gnawing at my opinions of these things. If you follow one guy around for days, then your class abilities might be pretty decent, depending on what he does. Otherwise... you don't have much. More on that later.

Mimic Feat is... pretty terrible. I have zero way of knowing what feats this guy has. So I follow him around for a while... and take a guess. If I'm wrong, I've lost my class features and some health.

But what if I don't have a mark? The ability says that if my Mark doesn't have the feat, I suffer the backlash, but that leaves open not having a mark and just picking feats I don't qualify for as I choose. Woo free Epic feats pre-epic!

Mimic Charged Ability might be kind of useful, but it seems like anything I run into with a spell-like ability will probably be hostile and thus I won't be able to Mimic Mark it.

Memorized Mimic needs some wording tweaks. It sounds like you're going for the ability to 'store' one Mark and recall the abilities later. While it's something the class definitely needs, the paperwork and bookkeeping involved is a touch... eh.

Preliminary Conclusion: Right now, the classic Mimic taunt quote you have up there isn't particularly fitting. The only thing the Mimic can really do better than any given mark is... skills, assuming he already has full ranks in them. He has no way of getting better at fighting, so if that's what his mark does, well, tough luck. His spellcasting is super limited (assuming you didn't cast coming in, I'll get to that shortly) and really all of his class abilities don't do much of anything for him unless he's had days to watch somebody. Admittedly, you can cheese this a little and stare at your gish party member as he uses all his spells to charge you up one night while you're resting, but that's not what the class should be about.

The funny part is, this is without a doubt an AMAZING caster class. Picture this: I come in as a Cleric. Stare at my Wizard friend for a while, and suddenly I'm spontaneously casting from both the cleric and wizard lists, getting ALL my spells known much, much faster than normal (9th level spells at level 15! woo!). Sure, I get some bonuses to skills and stuff here and there, but it really pales compared to the awesome casting machine I've become. I even picked up a better HD, and more skills! Probably a better BAB too!

You need to tweak this quite a bit to get it to work the way I think you want it to. Otherwise, a Factotum/Chameleon does this class's shtick way better than it does, and can also do a bunch of other things. I know this was kind of harsh on an early build, but getting these things out early helps make for less work later.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-02, 12:04 AM

Hmm, got Swordsage'd, hehe. I'm glad to see all this PEACHing, though!

Master Thief - cooperflood
You should add a quote.

Haha, anyway, I like the intro.

Becoming a...
Sounds fine.

Prerequisites - 18 ranks? Wow. +8d6 Sneak Attack is rough too. Do abilities that are not called Skill Mastery but allow the ability to Take-10 whenever (such as the Warlock's Deceive Item ability) qualify? This is very much saying "you're only getting in as a Rogue", it seems to me. I guess that was the intent, but I dunno, I tend to like options to be a little broader. The Rogue is hardly the only thiefly class out there. On the other hand, this is pretty much a gimme for a Rogue who hits level 15, which is also bad. Needs something to demonstrate that the player has gone out of their way for the class.

Class Features

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Wow, a ton of class skills and 10+Int skill points. I like it! Fitting for a high level Rogue PrC. The rest is typical and as expected.

Deadly Critical - Interesting. "Once per enemy", though? I mean, so if there's a recurring BBEG, and you happen to crit him at some point and use this, but he lives and escapes, the next time you see him he's immune to this? That's a little weird. Once per encounter per enemy might make more sense.

Also, you might want to label the half-SA damage to those immune to criticals as a separate ability, because it doesn't really fit under "Deadly Critical" and it's sort of confusing whether that is also limited to just critical hits or once per enemy (it should not be, by the way; there's a Rogue ACF to get this at like level 3).

I'm the Best - Nice, nice. I like it.

Combat Speed - Very nice! I like this a lot.

Just that Good - Wooow. OK, this is very good. Not overpowered, but really really nice.

Meant to Do That - Hahaha, awesome. Very cool.

Quiter Than Death - I'm sure you mean "Quieter Than Death" here. Anyway, interesting. It doesn't really make you quiet, though, it makes you invisible. Not sure about that. Anyway, it's a damn good ability.

First to Act - Wow, very nice. But again, fitting.

Not My Destiny - Very, very cool. Mobile, gets you invisibility, plus it's awesome. It's like you were never there!

Backstabbing Paragon - Honestly, this seems a little odd. Backstabbing implies treachery to me. I dunno. Anyway, whoa. This would take forever just to judge - and be impossible for people using certain dice rollers that don't have the "rollv" option that we have here. And ultimately, most of the time, the damage increase isn't that good - you're generally getting at least +1d6, and getting +2d6 about a third of the time. The chances of getting anything more than that dwindle quite quickly. It's a complicated mechanic for not much gain. Better to say that they roll d10's instead of d6's, or that they count as Empowered, or something.

The bit about affecting things immune to critical hits probably should have been part of the level 1 ability.

Spontanious Problem Solver - You mean "Spontaneous". Anyway, this is pretty cool, but what if the dude's outside of an encounter? I feel like this will see a lot more use outside encounters than during.

The Rest
You should finish it.

Conclusion
I actually really like it. It's a high-end Rogue PrC with high-end features, most of which surprised me by how much I liked them. I really like that you made this a no Sneak Attack class - it really does function as an alternative to Sneak Attack (even as it augments it), and that's awesome. There are a couple of specific issues, but otherwise I think this is quite good.

Ghost Wyrm - Hyooz
Very cool picture. DfA's an interesting choice for this contest...

Intro sounds quite good.

Becoming a...
Hahaha, I love that last line. Very well done.

Prerequisites - Huh. OK, so you can get in by level 5, but it requires both of your Invocations to enter. I dunno, I like things to be a bit more flexible than that... Also, 6 ranks seems odd - you're not getting in until level 5 anyway, so why not 8 ranks?

Class Features

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - More skills for a tricksy dragon - seems fine. Otherwise, Ref save instead of Fort/Will - OK, bit of a downgrade but fitting.

Proficiencies - Unusual for a PrC to get proficiencies at all, especially since this class is not giving Armored Casting as far as I can see (Dragonfire Adepts take Arcane Spell Failure on all armors, unlike Warlocks). Meh, whatever, not a big deal. Also, you have a typo here - should be "but not shields".

Invocations - This is weird. Am I to understand that this ignores the Breath Weapon entirely? Seems strange for a class that requires it. Perhaps Dragonkin would be a better choice for the requirement in that case?

Gaseous Breath - Is this still a cone, or has it become a circle? It sounds like a circle, honestly. Say 50 ft. Cone, rather than a 50 ft. Radius - circles have radii, and though a cone is a section of a circle and calling the distance from the origin to the edge a 'radius' might not be entirely wrong, it's confusing here. That, or spell out that this is a circular area effect.

Anyway, they automatically pass saving throws? What's the point of the Breath Effect then, just to change damage type? And you're not gaining Breath Weapon damage, so auto-halving seems pretty awful. I dunno...

I do like how I think this is supposed to work, allowing you to lay down a cloud and then not have to worry about using your breath weapon, so you can focus on other things. Is that the idea here?

Hidden Dominion - Uh... what's the point of this when the automatically pass those DCs when you use Gaseous Breath?

Truly Unseen - Very nice, very nice. I like this.

Serpent's Guile - "it is often too foes" should be "it is often to foes". Anyway, huh. This is... interesting. Not sure how useful it would be, but I suppose you could lay a trap with it?

Breath Effect - Nice, that was necessary.

Draconic Shade - The rules on movement ("cannot move up or down") are confusing. Maybe look to Psionic Uncarnate for wording ideas? Seems similar. Anyway, fitting and neat, you should just make it more similar to regular Incorporeality.

Improved Gaseous Breath - Can they choose to use the old version if they want the spread? Anyway, sounds good.

Imperceptible Destruction - Erm. Wouldn't they already be flat-footed against you if you're invisible? What's the point?

Clinging Exhalation - Nice. Pretty cool.

Draconic Wraith - Nice.

Ghastly Mastery - Again, this just seems pointless. You'd have this benefit anyway.

Playing a...
Sounds right.

Combat - That's going to be very difficult until you get the Improved Gaseous Breath version... not to mention your damage is going to be pitifully low.

Advancement - You only get one fewer Breath Effect than you would otherwise, but the main issue is your Breath Weapon is going to do absurdly low damage.

Resources - Hehe, I like the wording here. The Resources section always struck me as really strange.

...in the World
Not particularly different from your average Dragonfire Adept here.

Daily Life - That sounds right, and appropriate.

Notables - Sounds good.

Organizations - This strikes me as strange. You'd expect a Ghost Wyrm to form an organization - not of other Ghost Wyrms, but his own crime syndicate or vigilante fighting force or whatever. You'd expect him to be the shadowy figure calling all the shots.

...in the Game
Yeah, this seems right. I'm sort of questionable on the power of the support, though.

Adaptation - I'd advise looking to the Adaptation section of the Dragonfire Adept for help here.

Encounters - I really like this description.

Conclusion
By the end of it, I've come to think that you didn't intend to not have them progress their Breath Weapon, but I believe that's what you've done with the way you've worded the Invocations section. If that was intentional, this is rather weak; the abilities revolve too much around the Breath Weapon for it to be otherwise. As noted above the effects of Imperceptible Destruction and Ghastly Mastery seem useless - this is the same problem I had with the Covert Array, actually. Having invisible weapons is not as good as just being invisible. And really, I'm not sure Hidden Dominion is good enough to bother working very hard to trigger it.

Maybe some kind of Sneak Attack Breath Weapon thing? I dunno. Hidden Dominion's like Cloaked Casting, but... breath effects are not as good as spells.

boomwolf

2010-07-02, 01:42 PM

Now just needs fixing whatever holes I find (or imbalances or other improvements), and making a sample encounter.

Other then that-behold the true glory of the Mimic. and the sheer terror of any party with him as the BBEG (or his right/left hand.)

Many things changed based on Hyooz's comments, and many added that were not intended in the original design but felt like a good addition.

Several stuff got simplified. and others completely replaced. (instead of "memorizing" marks you can change faster. and most things no longer require observing, only to be certain that the mark is capable of them.

Hyooz

2010-07-02, 02:03 PM

First: Wow, I can't believe I forgot to progress their breath weapon damage. That's a major catch. Thanks for that.

Prerequisites - Huh. OK, so you can get in by level 5, but it requires both of your Invocations to enter. I dunno, I like things to be a bit more flexible than that... Also, 6 ranks seems odd - you're not getting in until level 5 anyway, so why not 8 ranks?

Fair enough. I can tweak the prerequisites a little bit. Should only be two of your three invocations, though. You should have two leasts, and need one lesser.

Class Features

Proficiencies - Unusual for a PrC to get proficiencies at all, especially since this class is not giving Armored Casting as far as I can see (Dragonfire Adepts take Arcane Spell Failure on all armors, unlike Warlocks). Meh, whatever, not a big deal. Also, you have a typo here - should be "but not shields".

This is another relic from an earlier concept of the class >.< Thanks for the catch.

Invocations - This is weird. Am I to understand that this ignores the Breath Weapon entirely? Seems strange for a class that requires it. Perhaps Dragonkin would be a better choice for the requirement in that case?

Not supposed to ignore the Breath Weapon, but that's how it ended up written. Slowed breath effect progression, faster invocation progression... that was the idea, at least >.> I'll make the numbers match the vision.

Gaseous Breath - Is this still a cone, or has it become a circle? It sounds like a circle, honestly. Say 50 ft. Cone, rather than a 50 ft. Radius - circles have radii, and though a cone is a section of a circle and calling the distance from the origin to the edge a 'radius' might not be entirely wrong, it's confusing here. That, or spell out that this is a circular area effect.

Anyway, they automatically pass saving throws? What's the point of the Breath Effect then, just to change damage type? And you're not gaining Breath Weapon damage, so auto-halving seems pretty awful. I dunno...

I do like how I think this is supposed to work, allowing you to lay down a cloud and then not have to worry about using your breath weapon, so you can focus on other things. Is that the idea here?

Supposed to be a circle, I'll tighten up the wording to get that across better. I gave auto-save initially because, well, without it, I felt it would be really good for the level it shows up. I mean, you can still drop a cloud of Slow Breath and totally mess up your foes for the encounter. The idea is... well, gassing opponents. Drop a cloud that hurts and blocks vision to tweak the battlefield how you like it.

Hidden Dominion - Uh... what's the point of this when the automatically pass those DCs when you use Gaseous Breath?

>.> Other breath effects?

Serpent's Guile - "it is often too foes" should be "it is often to foes". Anyway, huh. This is... interesting. Not sure how useful it would be, but I suppose you could lay a trap with it?

Thanks for the grammar catch. It's mostly for the helping with the sneaky angle. Breath weapons aren't the most subtle things in the world. Inviso-sneak into a better hiding place (for now) then set them on fire... invisibly. MWAHAHA.

Draconic Shade - The rules on movement ("cannot move up or down") are confusing. Maybe look to Psionic Uncarnate for wording ideas? Seems similar. Anyway, fitting and neat, you should just make it more similar to regular Incorporeality.

I'll check on Uncarnate to fix up the wording issues.

Improved Gaseous Breath - Can they choose to use the old version if they want the spread? Anyway, sounds good.

That was the idea, at least. I'll make the wording clearer.

Imperceptible Destruction - Erm. Wouldn't they already be flat-footed against you if you're invisible? What's the point?

That... is an excellent point. Hm. I'll do something else here.

Ghastly Mastery - Again, this just seems pointless. You'd have this benefit anyway.

Are you sure? The idea is you're able to breathe an invisible breath and stay invisible. Even with Greater Invisibility, if you want to make one invisible, you become visible until this level. I might rethink that aspect of it, which would give us a new capstone.

Organizations - This strikes me as strange. You'd expect a Ghost Wyrm to form an organization - not of other Ghost Wyrms, but his own crime syndicate or vigilante fighting force or whatever. You'd expect him to be the shadowy figure calling all the shots.

Ah, true. Messed up a bit here.

Adaptation - I'd advise looking to the Adaptation section of the Dragonfire Adept for help here.

Good plan. For some reason I didn't think of that.

Conclusion
By the end of it, I've come to think that you didn't intend to not have them progress their Breath Weapon, but I believe that's what you've done with the way you've worded the Invocations section. If that was intentional, this is rather weak; the abilities revolve too much around the Breath Weapon for it to be otherwise. As noted above the effects of Imperceptible Destruction and Ghastly Mastery seem useless - this is the same problem I had with the Covert Array, actually. Having invisible weapons is not as good as just being invisible. And really, I'm not sure Hidden Dominion is good enough to bother working very hard to trigger it.

Maybe some kind of Sneak Attack Breath Weapon thing? I dunno. Hidden Dominion's like Cloaked Casting, but... breath effects are not as good as spells.

I'll rectify the breath weapon damage issue. Admittedly making the breath weapon invisible is most useful for the Gaseous Breath, invisibly gassing a room is fun stuff, especially with something like Slow, or Sleep breath (sleep breath admittedly has to be Improved).

Thanks for the PEACH. I'm actually really liking how the class turned out, by and large, which is fun, since I came into this contest deciding it was going to be a DFA prestige class no matter the theme >.> It's good times, man.

cooperflood

2010-07-02, 03:46 PM

First off thanks for the comments DragoonWraith.

Added Quote and will try to finish the rest of the flavor text soon. Fixed those SP errors I missed.

Prerequisites - 18 ranks? Wow. +8d6 Sneak Attack is rough too. Do abilities that are not called Skill Mastery but allow the ability to Take-10 whenever (such as the Warlock's Deceive Item ability) qualify? This is very much saying "you're only getting in as a Rogue", it seems to me. I guess that was the intent, but I dunno, I tend to like options to be a little broader. The Rogue is hardly the only thiefly class out there. On the other hand, this is pretty much a gimme for a Rogue who hits level 15, which is also bad. Needs something to demonstrate that the player has gone out of their way for the class.

The intent was for it to be primarily a rogue class. That said a number of other classes can fairly easily meet the prereqs. Here a few other builds I could see taking the MT: Ninja 15, Factotum 11/Swashbuckler 3/Exemplar 1, Rogue 5/Assassin 10. I'm open to suggestions on other prereqs, but I'm kind of short on ideas. The only thing that really comes to mind is a feat tax like skill focus, but I would prefer to avoid that.

Deadly Critical - Interesting. "Once per enemy", though? I mean, so if there's a recurring BBEG, and you happen to crit him at some point and use this, but he lives and escapes, the next time you see him he's immune to this? That's a little weird. Once per encounter per enemy might make more sense.
Changed as suggested.

Not My Destiny - Very, very cool. Mobile, gets you invisibility, plus it's awesome. It's like you were never there!
Thanks I'm glad you liked it, that's what I was going for.

Backstabbing Paragon - Honestly, this seems a little odd. Backstabbing implies treachery to me. I dunno. Anyway, whoa. This would take forever just to judge - and be impossible for people using certain dice rollers that don't have the "rollv" option that we have here. And ultimately, most of the time, the damage increase isn't that good - you're generally getting at least +1d6, and getting +2d6 about a third of the time. The chances of getting anything more than that dwindle quite quickly. It's a complicated mechanic for not much gain. Better to say that they roll d10's instead of d6's, or that they count as Empowered, or something.

The bit about affecting things immune to critical hits probably should have been part of the level 1 ability.

Backstab is another reference to OD&D. In theory that's what your doing when your flanking someone and using sneak attack. Second I eliminated the Exploding dice feature, since it wasn't getting much love here and replaced it with a new mechanic. Finally I moved the immune bit to first level (I originally had it there but was worried it might be too strong).

During a surprise round a master thief may maximize all the damage done by his sneak attack class feature. Additionally during all rounds of combat a master thief may add his Dexterity modifier to sneak attack damage.

Spontanious Problem Solver - You mean "Spontaneous". Anyway, this is pretty cool, but what if the dude's outside of an encounter? I feel like this will see a lot more use outside encounters than during.

Added a new counter mechanic, I think I actually like this a lot better.

A master thief starts each day with one use of this ability, each time he rolls initiative he gains one more additional use.

Conclusion
I actually really like it. It's a high-end Rogue PrC with high-end features, most of which surprised me by how much I liked them. I really like that you made this a no Sneak Attack class - it really does function as an alternative to Sneak Attack (even as it augments it), and that's awesome. There are a couple of specific issues, but otherwise I think this is quite good.

Wow, thanks a bunch.

zagan

2010-07-03, 12:22 PM

And I'm done with my class, I wasn't really inspired but i think I've hit upon an underexplored (for good reason ?) concept.

I need more than a week just that find an acceptable image but if you have better it would be welcome.
The class is probably a little bland and/or weak but I think it could be fun to play.
I've used a spellchecker this time but I doubt it was enough.

If someone want me to I would be glad to Peach your work but seeing that all current class have been peached already I don't want to just repeat what as already been said. Still ask if you want help with anything.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-03, 01:05 PM

Minor note on the Tiny Thief: using Minimize causes you to no longer qualify for the prestige class itself if you were small to start, leading to TIME PARADOX! style shenanigans. I'd either remove the requirement or just add a blurb on Minimize to avoid this.

zagan

2010-07-03, 01:18 PM

cooperflood

2010-07-03, 01:38 PM

PEACH for zagan's PrC Tiny Thief

Overview
I like the general idea of this class. It fits the general goal of the competition and becoming smaller is a nifty trick for a thief. However the execution fell flat. It desperately needs more class features that allow it to do something unique or special.

Formating
-The name at the end of the quote shouldn't be italicized.
-Missing +4d6 Sneak Attack at level 7 in the table
-Missing colons (:) a the end of Minimize and Underfoot Combat
-Stop pressing return after the flavor text in your class ability section, it just makes your formating look funky.

Mechanics
Prereqs: I would move Underfoot Combat to the prereq section. This feat is basically required to make this class work, but I hate giving out feats as class abilities. Additionally this class could use an actual prereq that requires some dedication to achieve, personally I think this works perfectly.

BAB, Saves, Skills, HP, and Sneak Attack: All standard for a rogue PrC.

Minimize (Su): This ability should start at a 24 hour duration. It's already an at-will ability, so making it shorter is pretty pointless. See WotC's Warlock class for a good example of at-will personal effects having a 24 hour duration. Additionally once you have a 24 hour duration (or even longer that 30 minutes or so) improving the action to move or swift is pretty useless.

Shrink Item (Sp): Nice ability from a flavor perceptive, but pretty meh as far as power goes. A good player will probably come up with some decent tricks for this ability, but nothing worth more than 5,000 gp or so (the value of a type II bag of holding).

Right Perspectives, Freedom, and Hide in Plain Sight: All are decent abilities, but none are exceptional. Basically nobody is going to take this class with the goal of gaining any of these abilities. They are OK as filler, but really nothing more.

Misc: This class is going to have major problems with DR. With a reduced STR and Weapon size it's not unrealistic for a Tiny Thief to deal 1 damage each round before Sneak Attack. I would address this with a class feature. Maybe allow him to NOT reduce his STR/weapon size when using Minimize or possibly allow him to add his DEX/INT instead of STR to damage.

Conclusion
I would really like to see more abilities that allow him to use his small size in a unique way. Some ideas off the top of my mind are a modified version of Damp Power (ComPsi) or a modified version of Ride the Giant Down (4e PP Giantslayer, MP). The class is certainly playable as is, but it's as you say uninspired. Which is unfortunate because I definitely think you could do some very cool things with this concept.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-03, 01:50 PM

Underfoot Combat requires 10 ranks in Tumble, which makes it a poor pre-requisite for a class that otherwise is enterable at level 5. And what, exactly, is wrong with Bonus Feats? A two feat prerequisite is pretty harsh by 5th, too, though Weapon Finesse is a decidedly good feat for this class.

zagan

2010-07-03, 01:55 PM

Thank you very much for that.

PEACH for zagan's PrC Tiny Thief

Overview
I like the general idea of this class. It fits the general goal of the competition and becoming smaller is a nifty trick for a thief. However the execution fell flat. It desperately needs more class features that allow it to do something unique or special.

That was my felling too, well back to the drawinf board then

Formating
-The name at the end of the quote shouldn't be italicized.
-Missing +4d6 Sneak Attack at level 7 in the table
-Missing colons (:) a the end of Minimize and Underfoot Combat
-Stop pressing return after the flavor text in your class ability section, it just makes your formating look funky.

I'll correct that.

Mechanics
Prereqs: I would move Underfoot Combat to the prereq section. This feat is basically required to make this class work, but I hate giving out feats as class abilities. Additionally this class could use an actual prereq that requires some dedication to achieve, personally I think this works perfectly.

I want to ask for underfoot combat as a prereq at first but it require being small or smaller and while small race benefit the most from it I don't want to bare entry to medium size creature. Plus it require tumble 10 rank an that mean entering the class later.

Minimize (Su): This ability should start at a 24 hour duration. It's already an at-will ability, so making it shorter is pretty pointless. See WotC's Warlock class for a good example of at-will personal effects having a 24 hour duration. Additionally once you have a 24 hour duration (or even longer that 30 minutes or so) improving the action to move or swift is pretty useless.

Yeah, i'll probably do that, if only to gain room for actual class feature.

Shrink Item (Sp): Nice ability from a flavor perceptive, but pretty meh as far as power goes. A good player will probably come up with some decent tricks for this ability, but nothing worth more than 5,000 gp or so (the value of a type II bag of holding).

It was just there to allow the thief to steal something without having the need to regain his normal size.

Right Perspectives, Freedom, and Hide in Plain Sight: All are decent abilities, but none are exceptional. Basically nobody is going to take this class with the goal of gaining any of these abilities. They are OK as filler, but really nothing more.

I would think that hide in plain sight at least would be worth it but perhaps not 10 level.

Misc: This class is going to have major problems with DR. With a reduced STR and Weapon size it's not unrealistic for a Tiny Thief to deal 1 damage each round before Sneak Attack. I would address this with a class feature. Maybe allow him to NOT reduce his STR/weapon size when using Minimize or possibly allow him to add his DEX/INT instead of STR to damage.

It's the sneak attack that matter the most but I might make an ability giving dex to damage instead of strength

Conclusion
I would really like to see more abilities that allow him to use his small size in a unique way. Some ideas off the top of my mind are a modified version of Damp Power (ComPsi) or a modified version of Ride the Giant Down (4e PP Giantslayer, MP). The class is certainly playable as is, but it's as you say uninspired. Which is unfortunate because I definitely think you could do some very cool things with this concept.

I will look at Damp power, I don't have anything on 4e could you describe that power ?

Thank you very much for your imput.

Underfoot Combat requires 10 ranks in Tumble, which makes it a poor pre-requisite for a class that otherwise is enterable at level 5. And what, exactly, is wrong with Bonus Feats? A two feat prerequisite is pretty harsh by 5th, too, though Weapon Finesse is a decidedly good feat for this class.

That's what I point out, thank for your input.

cooperflood

2010-07-03, 02:14 PM

My bad on the Underfoot Combat feat, I forgot that it required Tumble 10. In general I dislike bonus feats simply because they are boring. If I take a PrC I want to be able to do something special not what any schmuck could do. That said Underfoot Combat is an appropriate ability for the class I was probably unduly harsh in my comments related to it (particularly since I was wrong).

Ride the Giant Down does a whole bunch of stuff (much of which is only really relevant to 4e), but the basics are:

While sharing a square with a creature:
-they grant combat advantage to you and allies
-when you take damage from an attack they also take half damage
-when they move you move with them

Those were just two quick examples, don't give them too much weight.

zagan

2010-07-03, 02:31 PM

DragoonWraith

2010-07-03, 03:12 PM

Updated the Shadow of a Murder to somewhat reduce the size of the Paths and Mysteries section, and I tried to clean up the Paths and Mysteries themselves to be formatted better.

Unfortunately, the formatting involves manual returns, which work really badly if your screen size is narrower than mine, and can look kind of poor if it's wider. Not really happy about that, but the actual indent and list tags put too much space above and below things, it would make a longer section even longer.

Glimbur

2010-07-03, 06:39 PM

PEACH of Ghost Wyrm.

Prologue fluff is nice.

Wording on "Breath Weapon 3d6" is a little weird... how about "Breath Weapon that does at least 3d6 damage"? That amount of breath damage happens at level 5, but the skills make you wait until level 6 as does the required lesser invocation. All in all, it's a bit easy to stumble in to as a DFA 6. Maybe throw in a fluff requirement like "must have run a successful ambush" or something to emphasize the sneakiness Also, why are the required skills all social when the class is about more visual sneakiness? Maybe require some cross class ranks in Hide.

1/2 BAB is not an issue due to breath weapon and all. 6+ skills with a sneakier list is sensible. Good Ref save is a little unexpected, but it is roguish and evens out a DFA's saves. A DFA6/Ghost Wyrm 10/DFA 4 ends up with one more invocation than DFA 20, and the invocations break down like this:
{table=head]Class|Least|Lesser|Greater|Dark
DFA 20|2|2|2|2
Ghost Wyrm|2|3|3|1
[/table]
I'd consider taking an extra level of DFA somewhere in my Ghost Wyrm progression to move that greater up to a Dark, but whatever. It's interesting to do the math for this.

"At first level, and every other level thereafter" might be read to teach an invocation every level. Change to "At first level, and every odd level thereafter"

Gaseous Breath is a little weird; does the center have to be exactly 25' away from me? Against people without evasion this can get really mean because in ten rounds I can affect them with ten breath weapons per round. That's... excessive. Make it so that you can't have more than one gaseous breath from the same Ghost Wyrm in the same space at the same time.

Hidden Dominion is fun and flavorful. +2 is nothing to sneeze at, either.

Breath Weapon damage ends up as 10d6 instead of 9d6, not a big deal.

Truly Unseen has a small annoyance: greater invisibility is rounds/level. Since it's at will this only really matters in combat, but you might retain the option to cast regular invisibility for strange cases.

Serpent's Guile is just plain cool. It's particularly sweet with Gaseous Breath. Can the invisible effect be seen like other invisible things are? If so, this is a mean trick along the lines of Invisible Spell Obscuring Mist to play on people with True Seeing or See Invis up constantly. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but consider it.

A Ghost Wyrm gets the same raw number of breath effects as a straight DFA, but the DFA 20 can have two breath effects that require level 15, while a Ghost Wyrm who enters the class ASAP and finishes it all in a row gets only one level 15 breath effect. It's a subtle and small reason to stay DFA, which is good because PrC's should not be strictly better than base classes IMHO.

Draconic Shade is a little unexpected, but interesting. It's not as powerful or limiting as full incorporeality but has some things in common with it. When you say "mundane obstacles", you mean that a wall of force, for example, would block this, right? That's my reading anyway.

Improved Gaseous Breath is even better than Gaseous Breath (of course).

Imperceptible Destruction should have a clause so that if people can see the breath weapon the DC does not increase.

Clinging Exhalation is already a feat, the effect is interesting and thematic. Consider renaming it to Implacable or Persistent.

Draconic Wraith is game-changing. Mundane dungeons will be much less of an impediment at this point. Granted, by ECL 15 wizards have had teleport and scrying and such for a while, but that costs spell slots. This is at-will. The breathing from walls is just icing on the cake.

Ghastly Mastery is a little uninspiring as a capstone. True Seeing is not rare at these levels, so staying invisible is not as great. Maybe require anyone with the ability to see invisible things to make a CL check to sense the Ghost Wyrm. That's still not all that flashy, but it's more useful.

Fluff seems good enough. The lack of a sample NPC is not a big deal, honestly I think that's just in the contest for legacy reasons.

All in all, it's giving up some scales, doubling of breath weapon range (until late in your career) some immunities you should have anyway by ECL 19, and moving around some invocations and breath effects in exchange for everything the class gives. Maybe cut out an invocation and give some other reason to stay DFA 20 instead of this class.

JoshuaZ

2010-07-03, 07:02 PM

Ok, PEACHing Shadow of Murder.

First let me just say that I like this a lot. Very well done, and it redeems the shadow magic system a bit.

The prerequisites seem very heavy. It requires an uncommon feat, and a lot of skill points. Are you sure they should be that much?

Black birds of ill omen flock about the Shadow of a Murder once he has reached 2nd level, and such a grouping is known to some as an "conspiracy" of crows or ravens"

should a conspiracy, not an conspiracy.

Beginning at 10th level, anyone whom the Shadow of a Murder has glimpsed in the middle of a murder, even whom the Shadow does not recognize, is always subject to a Secret Attack, even if they have no ability to cause such damage. The damage of this Secret Attack is equal to that of a Rogue with as many class levels as the target has hit dice, or the actual amount of Sneak Attack or similar damage they are capable of dealing, whichever is higher, plus the +4d6 that the Shadow of a Murder adds to all Secret Attacks.

You mean the Shadow of a Murder deals the sneak attack damage as if they could? This was hard to understand. Improving the wording would be good.

Regarding making the mystery use and transformations extraordinary, this seems a bit weird. Conceptually what is supposed to be going on there?

Regarding these mysteries, I take it you mean them to be only able to be taken by a Shadow of Murder and not a regular shadowcaster? If so, maybe say that explicitly.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-03, 11:45 PM

Ok, PEACHing Shadow of Murder.
Greatly appreciated!

First let me just say that I like this a lot. Very well done, and it redeems the shadow magic system a bit.
Hehe, thank you. I don't think it really does that much for Shadow Magic as a whole, though; hopefully this would more-or-less fit in a game alongside a Shadowcaster without trouble.

The prerequisites seem very heavy. It requires an uncommon feat, and a lot of skill points. Are you sure they should be that much?
...yes. Ish. The class is supposed to be a bit more skill-oriented than it actually turned out to be, so a skillful class entry was expected. However, as it developed it became less so, because the class features don't really reference it much.

I could reduce the requirements, but I'd rather increase the degree to which this class actually uses those skills. Thoughts?

should a conspiracy, not an conspiracy.
Warblgarbl. Thanks.

You mean the Shadow of a Murder deals the sneak attack damage as if they could? This was hard to understand. Improving the wording would be good.
Awkward to describe concisely. The idea is, targets who don't have their own ability to Sneak Attack are suddenly eligible for Secret Attack damage thanks to their complicity in a murder. Since Secret Attack is based on the Sneak Attack damage that the target actually can do, those who don't have any need a way to determine what the damage is - and that's by counting them as a Rogue of their HD. It's awkward, though. I'll need to think about the capstone some.

Regarding making the mystery use and transformations extraordinary, this seems a bit weird. Conceptually what is supposed to be going on there?
I was going for a very "spirit of the city" type of feel, so I wanted his 'magic' to seem very much a part of that. The Shadow of a Murder is often, especially at high levels, a force of nature and an agent of fate. The idea was, where Antimagic Fields suppress tampering with the laws of reality, the Shadow of a Murder is acting within them to bring down murderers. There used to be a bit more fluff to this effect that was accidentally lost when I shortened the Paths and Mysteries section.

Regarding these mysteries, I take it you mean them to be only able to be taken by a Shadow of Murder and not a regular shadowcaster? If so, maybe say that explicitly.
I'm not sure that's entirely necessary; the Shadowcaster has a list, and the Shadow of a Murder has a list. There are some overlaps between the two, but not everything the Shadowcaster gets is available to the Shadow of a Murder, and vice versa. The Cleric spell list doesn't say anything about Sorcerers and Wizards not having access, even when some of the spells are on both lists.

Of course, were I to include this in a game, I'd also recommend for certain of the Paths and Mysteries listed here to be available to a Shadowcaster, as well, though not all of them.

zagan

2010-07-04, 08:19 AM

Okay i've changed a lot of thing on my Tiny Thief as suggested by cooperflood Minimized as now a 24 hour duration from the start.
I've removed shrink item it was flavorful but I need room for other thing and it wasn't strictly necessary.
I've change freedom it's now called clinging techinque it doesn't give a bonus to escape artist anymore but you can use it to follow your foe.
I've add precise strike for dex to damage
attack from below it deny des to ac for the creature in your square.
i've add divert attack that allow you to share your damage with the creature in your square. i would really appreciate help for the wording and balance of this one.
Hide in plain sight is now at 9 level.
As a capstone I've add strike the flaw it allow you to treat all your melee attack as touch attack against the creature in your square. it's a nice capstone but i get the feeling that it lack power to really qualify as a captsone.

EDIT: I've founded a much better image for my Tiny Thief.

Merk

2010-07-07, 04:16 PM

Added my entry, the Mindbreak Stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8870802&postcount=15). Could probably do with a better name, but at the moment how does it look mechanically? I'm most concerned about ravages, mindbreak, and the capstone, in terms of balance and playability.

Edit: A change made to ravages: rather than getting more insane while gaining class levels, you start out really insane and learn to control your insanity as you gain class levels. This makes sense from a flavor standpoint (part of being a mindbreak stalker is being in control of your insanity) and from a mechanical standpoint (so the class isn't as much of a 1 level dip for the insanity immunity).

Edit: Added some clarification to the rule on Knowledge (forbidden lore) and added some fluff.

Hyooz

2010-07-07, 04:32 PM

Gareth... dude. WTF.

Your stuff has had a healthy dose of squick in the past, but this is crossing into the territory of outright offensive. This is a family website, man. Tone it down.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 06:48 PM

Dissembler - Glimbur
Hehe, amusing line there about bringing only what is needed. Quote seems a little odd, though.

EDIT: You should very seriously consider a picture of Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas, it's perfect.

Becoming a...
Interesting, but you'd think there'd be a mention of being undead in here...

Prerequisites - And possibly a mention of a having to have previously had a body part removed? Also, I'm pretty sure you can just say "corporeal undead" instead of "undead without the subtype". And I don't think you're supposed to use the brackets in text, that's just in stat blocks. Nit-picks aside, though, this seems good, albeit a bit trivial to enter aside from the corporeal undead requirement. Is there no feat that is fitting here?

EDIT: Going through the whole thing, I don't think it needs a feat requirement. You've done a good job here making a flavorful and useful prestige class that at the same time doesn't feel like it's getting extra power.

On the other hand, you might want to specify that the undead have a roughly humanoid shape.

Class Features

Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Looks more-or-less like the Rogue list plus Religion; fitting. 6+Int is right. Two good saves is a bit of bonus, but both seem fitting, so that's fine.

Legbone's Connected to the Hip Bone - Should probably be "leg bone" since "legbone" is not a word, but ignoring my pedantry... Sidebar? Ah, sidebar.

Sidebar - OK, interesting. I like this; you seem to have covered everything nicely.

[i]Leg - Why does sleight of hand not take a leg twice as long? That seems odd. As does the improved movement speed; you generally need two legs for that, a single leg would be reduced to a hop, which isn't very fast at all. You need rules for what the rest of the body can do without one or both legs, though. Presumably a movement speed penalty.

Also, how the hell does it see? I mean, I get that blindness makes it hard to use the thing, but that's really just bizarre.

Arms - Does it... float? I mean, I have a hard time seeing an arm on its own using a sword all that effectively, what with crawling on the ground and all. Some clarification there would be nice. Again, rules for what the rest of the character does without the arm would be nice, and the vision is just bizarre, but otherwise it looks fine.

Head - Seems OK, but now I'm absolutely assuming that it floats. Doesn't even begin to make sense otherwise.

Torso - Pretty plain, more-or-less as expected.

Multiple Pieces - Aha! OK. The rules here... more or less make sense, though I had to read that bit about movement speeds three times before I got it.

Getting Back Together - Looks good.

Missing Parts - Also looks good.

Antimagic Fields - Makes sense; also good.

And now a silly question: What if you have a tail? Wings? Fins? Tentacles? Or like, less 'torso' and more 'thorax and abdomen', like Thri-Kreen? Should probably get some form of cursory mention, even if it's "these things remain with the body".

Disassembled Range - Looks good, though you might consider going through the options in the text.

Improvised Weapon - Nifty, I'm glad there are rules for this. Just too perfect.

Armbone's Connected to the Shoulder Bone - "Armbone" is not a word either, for the record. Anyway, progressing nicely.

Sneak Attack - It really wouldn't have been hard to copy the Assassin's blurb about Sneak Attack, IMO. And every class ever with Sneak Attack lists the total amount offered by a given level, so that at level 4 you should list Sneak Attack +2d6.

Like Calls to Like - Neat. Why the barrier on other forms of precision damage? The only one I can think of is Precision Strike, and lord knows Duelists need all the help they can get.

Death Attack - As the Assassin, I presume? Meh. Fitting, but kind of useless as usual.

Headbone's connected to the Neck Bone - Heh, headbone. Also not a word, but whatever; using "skull" here would just ruin things, I think. Anyway, nifty.

Coming Apart at the Seams - Fitting, and I love the name of it. I'm suddenly reminded of Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas, and I think she'd make a much better image for this than the doll who is clearly not undead.

Divided Thought - Wow, tough. But also powerful. I like it. It's a good capstone.

Playing a...
Usually there is some kind of blurb to lead into this, but whatever.

Combat - The fact that leaving a leg behind doesn't slow you down seems strange. Anyway, I'm going to disagree with this advice - at 5th level. The fact that you can Divide and have two sets of actions in which both of your arms can each full-attack for Sneak Attack is worth the risk of lowered HP, IMO. I'm glad you mentioned that the Improvised Weapon thing is not really a great idea, though.

Advancement - You might suggest something though. Really, it seems likely to me that getting as much Sneak Attack damage as possible is the way to go. Oooh, or the Sublime Way - those aren't magic, so you can double-up on those when Divided...

Resources - Hahaha, I like it.

...in the World
I feel like my response to a bodiless arm being found somewhere would not be "What's this arm doing here". Maybe that's just me, heh.

Daily Life - Yeah, not really a lot to say here, I agree.

Notables - Not sure "Summer Camp" exists in the average D&D world, but whatever, this amused me.

Organizations - Hehe, yup.

Reaction
HAHAHAHA! Awesome!

...in the Game
OOoh, I forgot about reach. Yeah, that's gonna be hard. Plus only the arms get Iteratives, no? So... yeah.

Adaptation - Hehe, yup, Constructs or... Oozes.

Encounters - Ooh, mean. Heheh.

Conclusion
Amusing, well done, and fitting. I think it works quite nicely. I really have nothing to say, except for specific nit-picks above - the biggest problem with the class is the possibility of other body types getting involved.

Glimbur

2010-07-07, 10:51 PM

Honestly, the body parts can see mostly because it's a lot easier that way, and to make it simpler to have an arm jump from the ceiling and throttle someone to death. That's also why Death Attack is in the class, despite it being suboptimal. Thanks for the advice on the fluff and naming.

The move speed issue is me choosing... humor? ease of use? other? over actual sense.

I'll put in some explanations of tentacles and wings and tails and such.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 11:28 PM

Well, you should clarify how they move. I mean, the head just has to be floating, right? And probably the arms too?

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-08, 01:55 AM

...I just Squicked so hard that Roland gave me a warning for it. I'm withdrawing from this particular contest, to await the next theme. Sorry ya'll.

Hyooz

2010-07-08, 02:25 AM

...I just Squicked so hard that Roland gave me a warning for it. I'm withdrawing from this particular contest, to await the next theme. Sorry ya'll.

Wow, sorry dude. I mean, as squicky as it was, I was looking forward to the final product.

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-08, 02:27 AM

It's Rich's playground; if it was too squicky, that's the end of it. For all future reference, though, I don't go out of my way to shock or offend. I get a concept, and I execute it. Sometimes that concept goes dark places.

I think, for the next contest, I'll make someone nicer. Like the Children, but with less lynch mobs.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-08, 11:47 AM

Sorry to hear that, Gareth; I have to agree with Hyooz, Roland, and Rich about the squick, but it was still really well done.

ErrantX

2010-07-08, 12:11 PM

Tis lame. You should still attempt an entry if you find yourself with the time and energy.

-X

zagan

2010-07-08, 02:16 PM

I didn't Peach anything yet for this contest and I didn't yet Peach back Coopeflod Master Thief so I will do so now.

Master Thief:

Not much fluff but the class is generic enough that you don't need it.

Requirements: Only 15 level or higher but it's a "capstone" class so that's fine.

Skills: All old class skill stay as such, it's nice and it allow for acf and multiclassing. 10 skill point is very nice too.

Deadly Critical: Very powerfull and fiiting I really like it.

I'm the Best: Also fitting for a high level skill monkey.

Combat Speed: Very original and it give a use to swift action for a straight rogue beside wand of swift action spell.

Just that Good: Interesting mechanique I don't think I've ever seen something like that before.

Meant to do That: Not very plausible but fun.

Quieter than Death: A lot like the Ninja ability but nice. Caster level equal rank is weird but that's all and probably won't come up often anyway.

First to Act: Okay winning init a few time per day cool.

Not my Destiny: Cool but why the invisibility and move ?

Backstabbing Paragon: Maximise sneak attack is nice, and dex to damage is interesting too.

Spontaneous Problem Solver: Okay interesting that give lot of option. Weird way to calculate the number of uses per day, why 1 + initiative rolled ?

Conclusions: I probably didn't say anything that wasnt' said before but still very nice. Thinking about it perhaps too nice I mean what rogue wouldn't take it ? Yeah I know rogue don't have any capstone but Prc that are no brainer always seem too powerfull to me. Oh well it's probably just an impression and my inexperience with very high level play talking.

I'm on a roll so I also want to do Merk's Prc.

Mindbreak Stalker

Cool image and very interesting fluff.

Why factotum as possible entry ? I mean yeah they can met the requirement why would they bother the class only progress manifesting.

Requirements: I never seen the Sanity system used before very original even if it's not really my cup of tea.

Skill: Nice list and good amount of skill point.

Hd, bab, saves: Standard.

Powers Known: 3 lost manifester level seem a little much I hope that the class feature warrant it.

Ravages of the Shattered Mind:
-Okay, Sanity immunity I guess, sound nice.
-I really don't like the random psionic focus thing, it bare me from using anything that require maintaining psionic focus and I'm might not be able to use some metapsionic feat at the worst moment.
-Rank in knowledge (Forbiden lore) okay.
-A little guidline or example on phobia and obsesion would be nice.

Mindbreak: An original variant of sneak attack, very nice.

Serenity of the Infinite Depths: Your missing a word it should be "a bonus on saves against"

Step into Disarray:
-Dimension door is nice, does it's augment as normal for psilike ability, I mean if your manifester level is 7 or higher can you use it as a move action ? And on that subject what's the manifester level ?
-Plane shift is usable how many time per day ? Manifester level ?

Alien Sneak: Interesting, it's pretty clear what you mean particulary with the example but clarying what is usual (scent ?) could help and if unusual sense gain from a spell count ?

Delusion's Gaze: Very nice but risking losing true seeing in the middle of a fight because you lost psionic focus could be anying or even dangerous.

Blade from a Different Dimension: Very nice and could be devastating against wisdom based caster/manifester, stiil lot of creature are immune to ability damage so it should be alright.

Hide in Plain Sight: While normally the ability is nice the risk of losing it every round could be devastating.

Fractal Mindscape: Remind me of the illithid slayer ability but very fitting.

Psychopathic Phantasmagoria: Flavorfull ability, the constant psionic focus offset a little the random one from earlier but you need to struggle for 9 level with it. The bonus feat are very interesting, very limit liste but allow to customise your ability depending on the situation, niptick you need to be an humanoid for aberrant blood so if you qualify by being an elan you gain nothing from that class feature.

Multiclass Note: linking the class to your previous work is a nice idea I like it.

You complete the other section and it's rare so kudo on that, only missing is daily life, notables and organizations.
In adapatation it might be interesting to give the option to remove the sanity requirement.
The stat block is incomplete but it's a nice adventre hook.

Conclusions: Very nice work using a very rare subsystem. The only thing that really bug me is the random psionic focus it's fitting but probably a headache to use.

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-08, 04:05 PM

Tis lame. You should still attempt an entry if you find yourself with the time and energy.

-X

I probably won't. My other ideas are half-formed and kinda bad. I'll await the next theme.

ErrantX

2010-07-08, 04:27 PM

I probably won't. My other ideas are half-formed and kinda bad. I'll await the next theme.

Understandable. I'd say try to salvage the Knights Miraculous if you can, tone it down perhaps? Personally, I love crazy stuff like that because it's Book of Vile Darkness as far as rating, and honestly, that's the rating I run my games at. C'est la vi!

-X

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-08, 04:30 PM

Understandable. I'd say try to salvage the Knights Miraculous if you can, tone it down perhaps? Personally, I love crazy stuff like that because it's Book of Vile Darkness as far as rating, and honestly, that's the rating I run my games at. C'est la vi!

-X

Hahahahahaha....

The BoVD is a really funny joke, one which I paid far too much money for.

Merk

2010-07-08, 04:34 PM

Thanks for the feedback, zagan!

Cool image and very interesting fluff.

Why factotum as possible entry ? I mean yeah they can met the requirement why would they bother the class only progress manifesting.

Thanks. Factotum entry isn't perhaps optimal, but they have easy access to the class, and the 1st level offers insanity immunity, which is big in a campaign that works on this variant.

Requirements: I never seen the Sanity system used before very original even if it's not really my cup of tea.

Skill: Nice list and good amount of skill point.

Hd, bab, saves: Standard.

Powers Known: 3 lost manifester level seem a little much I hope that the class feature warrant it.

7/10 manifesting is intentional as the point where it discourages psion entry (they would lose access to 9th level powers), but is still manageable for the psychic rogue (who still gets 5th level powers).

Ravages of the Shattered Mind:
-Okay, Sanity immunity I guess, sound nice.
-I really don't like the random psionic focus thing, it bare me from using anything that require maintaining psionic focus and I'm might not be able to use some metapsionic feat at the worst moment.
-Rank in knowledge (Forbiden lore) okay.
-A little guidline or example on phobia and obsesion would be nice.

Yeah, the 75% psionic focus is what I was most shaky on. I'll probably get rid of that entirely, or try to find an alternative idea. I might come up with a list of appropriate phobias and obsessions.

Serenity of the Infinite Depths: Your missing a word it should be "a bonus on saves against"

Thanks for catching that, will fix.

Step into Disarray:
-Dimension door is nice, does it's augment as normal for psilike ability, I mean if your manifester level is 7 or higher can you use it as a move action ? And on that subject what's the manifester level ?
-Plane shift is usable how many time per day ? Manifester level ?

I'm not sure what the protocol is on whether Psi-like abilities can be augmented, I'll have to look into that. I'll add in statements specifying that the ML = HD and both powers use the same pool of 3 + int mod / day (so if you have int mod 5, you have 8 uses, and could d-door 6 times and plane shift there and back 2 times, or d-door all 8 times).

Alien Sneak: Interesting, it's pretty clear what you mean particulary with the example but clarying what is usual (scent ?) could help and if unusual sense gain from a spell count ?

Good point on usual vs. unusual. I'll add in a clarifying line, and probably add in a rule that senses gained by spells count as "unusual".

Fractal Mindscape: Remind me of the illithid slayer ability but very fitting.

That might be because I yanked it straight from the Slayer. =p

Psychopathic Phantasmagoria: Flavorfull ability, the constant psionic focus offset a little the random one from earlier but you need to struggle for 9 level with it. The bonus feat are very interesting, very limit liste but allow to customise your ability depending on the situation, niptick you need to be an humanoid for aberrant blood so if you qualify by being an elan you gain nothing from that class feature.

So, just to be clear, the reason Elan don't gain any benefit is because they don't have the aberrant blood feat, so gaining the [aberrant] feats is impossible as they have aberrant blood as a prerequisite, right? In which case I'll add in that this allows you to waive that specific prerequisite, allowing Elans to take [aberrant] feats while using this ability.

Multiclass Note: linking the class to your previous work is a nice idea I like it.

Actually, the awesome Ozodrin class is Owrtho's (?) work, not mine.

You complete the other section and it's rare so kudo on that, only missing is daily life, notables and organizations.
In adapatation it might be interesting to give the option to remove the sanity requirement.
The stat block is incomplete but it's a nice adventre hook.

I'm thinking for the non-sanity adaptation, to have the "special" requirement be that you were at some point reduced to 0 Wisdom, and recovered.

Conclusions: Very nice work using a very rare subsystem. The only thing that really bug me is the random psionic focus it's fitting but probably a headache to use.

Thanks! I'll work on an alternative to the random psionic focus that's more playable.

ErrantX

2010-07-08, 04:59 PM

Hahahahahaha....

The BoVD is a really funny joke, one which I paid far too much money for.

It may be a joke, and it is, but the rating says 18+ and that's where I go. Here, we need to keep it PG13.

-X

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-08, 08:03 PM

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-08, 08:06 PM

Speaking of BoVD, doesn't have a short list of explicitly vile/evil actions to which you could refer via page number under the special requirements rather than stating them outright? I'm not sure if that's technically against the forum rules or not, but it is an idea.

Nope, saying "See page XX of BoVD" is perfectly fine; it's only copying non-OGL stuff directly that's against the rules, since that lets you use the material without having the book.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-08, 09:48 PM

Nope, saying "See page XX of BoVD" is perfectly fine; it's only copying non-OGL stuff directly that's against the rules, since that lets you use the material without having the book.

I was thinking more in the sense of providing information with what the special requirements dealt with without actually stating them in the post explicitly, though.

boomwolf

2010-07-08, 10:12 PM

...

No comments on the Mimic?

DragoonWraith

2010-07-08, 11:10 PM

I'm getting there!

But I'm pretty sure that someone PEACHed the Mimic already...

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-08, 11:14 PM

I could probably do a quick one of it within the next day.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-09, 01:53 AM

I promised PEACHes, so dammit, you get them!

Mimic

*Opening fluff*

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
BAB:+3
Skills: Disguise 8 ranks, Bluff 5 ranks,
Feat: Skill Focus (disguise)
Special: Must have spent 24 hours disguised to another person, and interacting with close acquaintances of him without being detected.

Fluff makes sense. You need to fix up the grammar and spelling of a few things, but a copypasta into Word will solve that. Entry requirements are fairly easy for just about everyone of 3rd level or higher. You may want to add more skills to the list to make it more restrictive, but the special requirement isn't bad.

*snip on skills, table, and HD*

These all look to be in order. Although, I'd actually go and give the Mimic every skill as a class skill. Yeah, it's odd to see, but it's been done before officially. Makes more sense here than on the Factotum, at least.

Weapon Proficiencies: A mimic gains no new proficiencies, he is however proficient with any weapon and armor his current Mimic Mark is proficient with.

Cute and appropriate. I'll actually have to read the rules on the mark, though. At the very least, it makes sense.

Mimic Mark By studying a person for a round he may set him as his Mimic Mark. While studying the victim, the Mimic can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Mimic or recognize the Mimic as an enemy.
While being the Mimic Mark for itself is harmless, it allows the Mimic to use multiple other abilities based on whoever he is mimicking.
Making a new mimic mark make you lose the previous mark and any ability you have learned how to mimic from him.
You gain a bonus of disguise checks to pretend to be your mimic mark equal to twice you Mimic class level.

You can only use Mimic Mark on creatures of your own type.

((note-it is possible to Mimic Mark yourself. and it might be a good idea in some cases.))

Language needs some work, and the ability needs a type, most likely (Ex), but the bonus to disguise seems in order.

Spell Mimic (Su)
The Mimic can cast spells spontaneously from his list of mimic spell known, that list contains any spell he has absolute certainty his current Mimic Mark has.
While using the term "spell", this actually refers to any magic/psionic/material maneuver or the like that is using a level system similar to that of arcane spells.
The caster level/manifester level/initiator level/etc for the mimicked spell (or the like) is equal to twice the Mimic's class level. the save DC is 10+the level of the spell (or the like)+the Mimic's charisma modifier.

Spells you cast against targets who are familiar with the mark yet they believe you to be him (aka, failing to uncover your disguise) are cast with a +2 mimicry bonus to AC.

If the mimic is certain of a certain spell (or the like) but is mistaken/misled and attempts to use one that the Mimic Mark does not have, he looses all spell-casting ability for that day.

I'd change the certainty language to simply "seen the mark cast" to avoid some philosophical quandaries that would arise from such. I would also simply limit it to "Spell, power, martial maneuver, mystery, or similar ability that progresses on a level basis. No matter the original source, when used by a mimic, the ability is treated as a spell of the equivalent level..." and whatever else may be needed in converting stuffs from the others to spells. Also, you need to mention that the spell or whatever is cast from the same criteria as the original caster, so no getting 6th level bard spells from watching a wizard cast that spell as a 9th level spell.

You also need to describe whether the target is gaining an AC bonus from the spell or you or whatever else is happening, as it sounds like ignorant targets are somehow harder to hit if they believe me to be Joe the Plumber.

Not going to lie, this ability alone is probably the most "WTF" worthy ability in the prestige class. Yeah, it's a more limited Ur-Priest, but the caster level for it is much greater. Plus, I can double up on being a cleric or wizard, assuming we've already got one in the party.

Also, the argument could be made that if you've seen yourself use X spell or whatever, you can use X spell or whatever, allowing you to use every spell or whatever as long as you mimic yourself.

Skill Mimic (Ex)
A second level Mimic begins to fake your skills. The Mimic gains a +1 mimicry bonus on a skill for every 3 ranks the mark has in it, rounded down, as long he has witnessed his mark using that skill during the study or afterwards.

The whole "witnesses the use of" business prevents the whole list of Knowledge skills from getting boosted. It'd be easier to just say that a mimic gains a +1 bonus per 3 ranks the target has in the skill and can use such skills untrained. Hell, you may as well say Mimics can use all untrained skills normally, even if they lack ranks in it.

Mimic Feat (Ex)
At third, sixth and ninth levels the Mimic gains a Mimic Feat. these feats can are "open" feats that he may change to any feat at any time as a swift action, however if his current Mimic Mark does not have the feat he chooses he suffers a major backlash, and not only he looses his mark, he also suffers 1d4 damage per HD of his lost mark.

In order to mimic a feat you must have all requirements of it, you can use the mimic spell or mimic ability abilities of the mark to qualify.

If you have no Mimic Mark you cannot choose new Mimic Feats, however if the feat is already set to something, it does not change when you change a mark or looses it, and you suffer no backlash from it. (you only suffer a backlash when changing the Mimic Feat to something the current mark does not have.)

((Tip-mimicking a feat of your mark then changing a mark and mimicking one of the new mark's feats allows you to get feat combination that none of your opponents has, possibly providing an edge.))"

This has an odd problem when you start mimicing yourself to get bonus feats what with tautologies and all. Good in theory, but a little strong in practice.

Mimic Charged Ability (Ex)
If a Mimic of the forth level knows an ability that has a timed used limit (such as 3/day or every 1d4+1 round) that his mimic mark can use he may attempt use that ability himself, if the ability has any variables that depend on the level of the user use the Mark's own level, but ability modifier variables uses the Mimic's own modifier.
If the Mimic attempts to use this ability more then the limit that the Mark has he loses his mark, and suffers 1d4 damage per hit die of the lost mark. (for example, if a Mimic will have a tenth level paladin as his mark, and the Mimicked has witnessed the Smith ability, an attempt to use it for the forth time this day will cause him to lose his mark and take 10d4 damage.)

You need to better describe "timed used limit," stat if you use the full Mimic's level or just Mimic class level, and what modifier is being used when this ability is used and for what exactly.

Same goes for when you lose the mark and whether or not the ability actually goes through. Powerful for the same reason the spells are powerful. By this wording, I can mimic my wizard's whatever spell as long as he has it at least prepared at least once for the day.

Quick Mimic (Ex)
A fifth level Mimic is much faster in his Mimicking, and requires only a move action to change his Mimic Mark.

Cute for combat, but I'm still of the mindset to either mimic every party caster ever or yourself once you've seen them cast spells.

Dominative Mimicry (Ex)
As long nobody has uncovered your disguise (other then the mark itself) you may attempt to control the mark's actions, using a suggestion as a spell like ability. this ability can only be used once per day on any given mark.

Why only a suggestion? This ability needs caster level, save, and the like. Seems limited compared to the rest, but eh.

Mimic Combat Capeability (Ex)
/When you learn to act like him, you learn to fight like him. a sixth level Mimic changes his BAB, initiative and touch AC to match these of his Mark, as long the mark's are higher. this ability cannot increase your BAB above your HD, not can it change the BAB, initiative or touch AC by more then the Mimic's class level each. (in case the difference is higher then the Mimics class level, gain a bonus equal to your class level.)
Also, as you can easily predict the movement of your mark, you gain a +2 mimicry bonus on attacks made against him, and a +2 dodge bonus against attacks he makes.

You need to clear up the language here, too. I'd also change "touch AC" to changing your dexterity modifier, dodge modifier, and maybe untyped modifiers to AC instead. As for the intent of the ability, seems fine to me. Although, it could lead into another weird tautology scenario where you change your shenanigans to someone else in the party's then change them to yourself, retaining the bonuses.

Mimic Any Ability (Ex)
An eight level Mimic becomes truly a master of copying his mark. he is considered to have any ability that does not require an action that his mark has. (such as sneak attack, slow fall, mettle, evasion etc..), is the mark as gained that ability in a level no higher then twice the Mimic class level. (so an 8th level mimic cannot gain an ability his mark learned at level 17)
If the ability has any variables that depend on the level of the user use the Mark's own level, but ability modifier variables uses the Mimic's own modifier, scaling abilities (such as sneak attack or barbarian's DR) are identical to these of the mark, if you have a scaling scaling ability and the mark has it as well they stack.

Another strong ability. Needs some cleaning and presents the same problem as everything else in the class which is "screw mimicing doods, I've got friends to copy!"

Reverse Mimicry (Su)
As long you are successfully disguised as your mark and nobody has uncovered your disguise (other then the mark himself), a Mimic of the ninth level may choose the mark to look as if he is the Mimic himself.

Should stat what ability this mimics. Is it like PAO? Disguise Self? Alter Self? Or is it entirely unique. Also, I feel that this ability should come much sooner in the class.

Rapid Mimicry (Ex)
A tenth level Mimic has reached to top of the mimicking capability, and as such changing his mark is a swift action for him.

See my comments on Quick Mimicry.

True Opposition (Su)
The most fearsome power of a tenth level mimic, the ability to change into a precise replica of your mark, as if a replica made by a Mirror of Opposition. the negative side is however, is that the Mimic is stuck in that form until he takes a full night's rest, and as a replica of mark you retain none of your own abilities, other then Reveres Mimicry.

I'd throw in the option to change back once the poor schmuck is dead. Still a really, really, really strong ability. Meet a dragon for a day, poof, you're a dragon. You're party now has two wizards in full regard, even if it probably would be more effective to remain as a mimic marking yourself.

*Exit fluff*

You've got a "PLAYING A CLASS NAME" left in there, but whatever. I'll leave fluff PEACH to someone else, as I'm generally lazy about that unless it's something that really catches my eye, and even then it's only "marshmallows" or something of the sort.

Overall, I find the class to be silly strong, as more often than not, it'd be better to just mimic a party member and go from there. One possible way to fix this is to throw a time limit on how long you can mimic someone, but that removes the skill bonuses gained from mimicry and heavily favors combative mimicry.

zagan

2010-07-09, 06:06 AM

Thanks for the feedback, zagan!

i like peaching good work.

Thanks. Factotum entry isn't perhaps optimal, but they have easy access to the class, and the 1st level offers insanity immunity, which is big in a campaign that works on this variant.

That's true.

7/10 manifesting is intentional as the point where it discourages psion entry (they would lose access to 9th level powers), but is still manageable for the psychic rogue (who still gets 5th level powers).

Okay, then.

Yeah, the 75% psionic focus is what I was most shaky on. I'll probably get rid of that entirely, or try to find an alternative idea. I might come up with a list of appropriate phobias and obsessions.

An alternative would probably be better but i don't have any idea.

I'm not sure what the protocol is on whether Psi-like abilities can be augmented, I'll have to look into that. I'll add in statements specifying that the ML = HD and both powers use the same pool of 3 + int mod / day (so if you have int mod 5, you have 8 uses, and could d-door 6 times and plane shift there and back 2 times, or d-door all 8 times).

The rule for psi-like ability are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm) basically they are treat as always spending the maximum amount of pp on the power so if it can be augmented they benefit from it.

Good point on usual vs. unusual. I'll add in a clarifying line, and probably add in a rule that senses gained by spells count as "unusual".

Good, more detail is generraly better than less, just in case.

That might be because I yanked it straight from the Slayer. =p

I didn't check but it's fitting.

So, just to be clear, the reason Elan don't gain any benefit is because they don't have the aberrant blood feat, so gaining the [aberrant] feats is impossible as they have aberrant blood as a prerequisite, right? In which case I'll add in that this allows you to waive that specific prerequisite, allowing Elans to take [aberrant] feats while using this ability.

That's right.

Actually, the awesome Ozodrin class is Owrtho's (?) work, not mine.

You might want to give him credit then.

I'm thinking for the non-sanity adaptation, to have the "special" requirement be that you were at some point reduced to 0 Wisdom, and recovered.

That work you just need to precise what it change for the Ravages of the Shattered Mind and Mindbreak ability the only two that deal with sanity. probably wisdom damage immunity for the first and penality to will save for the second.

Thanks! I'll work on an alternative to the random psionic focus that's more playable.

My pleasure.

Merk

2010-07-09, 02:56 PM

Mini-PEACHes best served with a grain of salt. (Mostly only addressing features where I have something to contribute.)

Mimic

Entry:

Requiring +3 BAB seems odd, given that this isn't a martial class. You don't really need to bar caster entry, because there's poor incentive for a full caster to take this class, and "Disguise 8 ranks" already works as a "you must be level 5" check.

Class Skills:

Seconding the suggestion of all skills = class skills; it seems fitting for this class.

Mimic Mark:

You probably want to specify (Ex), as has been mentioned.

Spell Mimic:

The "certainty" part seems problematic. Do you have to see them cast the spell you want to mimic? What if they were using False Theurgy (to pretend to cast one spell, and cast a different one instead)?

Including martial maneuvers in this ability seems awkward, since maneuvers don't use slots, but instead use "readied/spent". Do mimics have any means to refresh maneuvers? I'd probably create a separate ability for "Martial Mimic" if you want to emulate that.

Conclusion:

I like this class. I especially like the Mimic Combat Capability. It has some dangerous-looking toys, in that I mean mimicking special abilities and spells has potential to be broken. But that's more D&D's fault than this class'.

Tiny Thief

Precise Strike:

I think you might be missing "on damage rolls" somewhere in that text.

Strike the Flaw:

"Always make touch attacks" is usually considered an overpowered ability, and coupled with the "Deny DEX bonus attacks" basically reduces all of your attacks to 100% hit and sneak attack always activating. But this class doesn't have many other things to do in combat, so that might be okay.

Conclusion:

It's good at accomplishing its one schtick, but could maybe use some more things it can do to people while small. Right now, it's options seem to be "get small, get under people and sneak attack them" with some interesting but passive abilities (like the auto-movement and damage split) -- it can have more things to do on its turn. But for what it's worth, turning small instead of turning invisible for stealth is a clever idea.

zagan

2010-07-09, 03:44 PM

Thanks for the peach.

Precise Strike:

I think you might be missing "on damage rolls" somewhere in that text.

Thanks for the catch i've corrected it.

Strike the Flaw:

"Always make touch attacks" is usually considered an overpowered ability, and coupled with the "Deny DEX bonus attacks" basically reduces all of your attacks to 100% hit and sneak attack always activating. But this class doesn't have many other things to do in combat, so that might be okay.

At ECL 15 this doesn't seem that strong, I was even afraid it might be too weak. And yes they don't have much else to do but that's not too different than most rogue build so it's alright I think.

Conclusion:

It's good at accomplishing its one schtick, but could maybe use some more things it can do to people while small. Right now, it's options seem to be "get small, get under people and sneak attack them" with some interesting but passive abilities (like the auto-movement and damage split) -- it can have more things to do on its turn. But for what it's worth, turning small instead of turning invisible for stealth is a clever idea.

Thanks, it's not great and perhaps too specilazed but I think it could be fun. Plus outside combat they can make great scout, so there's that.

boomwolf

2010-07-09, 11:25 PM

Thrice Dead Cat-it appears what you found the most broken is what does not work. or at least not intended to. (will make it clearer on the class)

As for grammar issues, I will go over it.

Merk-If you think he can cast spell X, but he actually cast spell Y and used False Theurgy two things can happen:
If he CAN cast spell X: you cast spell X.
If he CANT cast spell X: your casting failed and you lost all casting for the day.

As for the maneuver bit-you make use of slots as if they were spells instead of using them the normal way. it has potential to be stronger for a fast combat, but on the long run its worse.

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-10, 10:36 AM

I HAD ANOTHER IDEA!

...But I'm not sure I can use it >.> As, ah, it involves being a whore. Literally. It's a whore PrC.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-10, 11:01 AM

Thrice Dead Cat-it appears what you found the most broken is what does not work. or at least not intended to. (will make it clearer on the class).

I hope you can get the RAW and RAI for the Mimic to be as close to each other as possible. Generally, when I PEACH, I try to find out how it works in addition to what appears to be the intent.

Averagedog

2010-07-10, 12:04 PM

I HAD ANOTHER IDEA!

...But I'm not sure I can use it >.> As, ah, it involves being a whore. Literally. It's a whore PrC.

Seriously, what does Roland St. Jude have to say about that? These forums are supposed to be relatively safe for work right? I'm pretty sure writing a prestige class based off of being a prostitute breaks the TOS.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-10, 12:31 PM

I believe it should be possible to deal with the subject tastefully and discretely, so that it easily qualifies as PG-13. That said, yeah, checking with Roland would seem most appropriate.

boomwolf

2010-07-10, 04:05 PM

Yea...some things there require clarification, but unfortunately I will have no computer access until the 29th of the month, and using the phone's internet does not allow me to handle over 5000 symbols. (and the class is alot more.)

ErrantX-I request an addition of the time counting one day if you may. otherwise I cannot finish my entry properly.

Hyooz

2010-07-10, 04:22 PM

I HAD ANOTHER IDEA!

...But I'm not sure I can use it >.> As, ah, it involves being a whore. Literally. It's a whore PrC.

I have a class ability for you! (With tongue planted firmly in cheek... MY cheek, mind you.)

Awkward Session (Ex): As a free action, you can make everyone at the gaming session feel incredibly awkward by actually using your ranks in Profession (Prostitute). This ability makes your DM incredibly uncomfortable because now he has to play the part of the John while you awkwardly seduce his NPC. Using this ability has a 1% chance to drive the DM away entirely, and a 10% chance of him finding a way to kill your character ASAP.

Otherwise, you succeed in making the whole room feel awkward by apparently seducing the DM, or the DM propositioning your character. This accomplishes exactly what a Diplomacy skill check would accomplish, but with the added bonus of homosexual overtones (this, of course, assumes the standard DnD group make-up, i.e. lots of guys. -- Awkwardness can be adjusted to account for players and DMs of varying genders and sexualities, as well as intra-group romances or desired romances.)

Wording might need to be cleaned up some, though. Also: it being a free action might be a little OP, but it seems fitting.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-12, 09:58 AM

Came across this picture in the Image Study thread, and am tempted to include it in the Shadow of a Murder:
http://coolvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/themorrigan.jpg

Doctor Acula

2010-07-12, 01:49 PM

I have never made a homebrewed class before, can I please get some PEACH for Withered Hand of Life?

zagan

2010-07-13, 10:37 AM

I have never made a homebrewed class before, can I please get some PEACH for Withered Hand of Life?

I have time so I'll give a PEACH,

Withered Hands of Life:

Nice image and the fluff is short but interesting, I believe I've seen something similar before but it's still prettu original.

Requirments: Fitting classic ECL 6 entry.

Skill, HD, bab and saves: No knownledge (religion )? Why d12 ? Just to use the undead HD size ?

Spells per Day: You might want to use the standard blurd for advancing spellcasting, see the SRD. 3 lost caster level seem a little much. I remark it only advance druid spellcasting but they are way to enter the prc without it, wildshape ranger come to mind for example but they are other way so you might want to just progresse any divine casting. If you want to limit the class to druid you need to make the requirement so only druid can enter druidic as language could probably do the trick.

Rebuke Undead: Fitting; You have formating problem with the last phrase.

Expanded Spell List: Logical.

Spontaneous Casting: Wording need a lot of work, first it should they can not must, otherwise they can't cast any other spell. And what do you mena by the choise is permanent ?

Wild shape: Normal

Ghost companion: Okay, ghost brute template, being incorporeal as some drawback but it probably also mean that it's less vulnerable so there's that. Two thing, first a no point you say that withered hand level progress animal companion ability so you might want to rectify that, second what happened if you don't have an animal companion there's numerous way to not gain it even for a druid Alternate class feature mostly.

Wild Shape(Undead): Fitting but perhaps too powerfull. Any undead template is a lot and some of them are really powerfull even with very little CR. You should probably limit it a little.

Spectral Companion: As word it's the character that gain the template not the companion. Where's the template from ?

Wild Shape(Incorporeal): Same thing as with previous version.

Wraith Companion: Again it's the character that gain it.

Withered Body: The "undead template" ? The wording is weird generally it's something like "the creature type change to undead and gain....etc"

Fluff: A few thing still missing but what you have isn't bad.

Conclusions: Not a bad start, you need to work on the wording, compare it to some official work to find the right way or even other homebrew work. Still the idea is interesting and just need some polishing.

Forever Curious

2010-07-13, 10:52 AM

PEACH of Withered Hand of Life (which is pretty boss btw.)

Withered Hand of Life

"You may think it wrong but I know that these souls, dead or not, are as much a part or nature as the trees in the forest or the earth beneath your feet"- Donru Malikani, a Withered Hand of Life

Fun name, sweet quote.

Most druids look down upon the undead, casting them out as if they were abominations. However some druids view the undead as an equal part of life, a ying to life's yang. After all the vampire hunts as the wolf and no one would call the wolf unnatural. The undead are merely the other side to a coin, equally valuable and equally beautiful.

The Order of the Withered Hand was founded by druids who through understanding and study not only accept the undead but learn how too use their powers as well as they can use nature's powers. Few druid's have the acceptance to follow this path, however those that do find a greater understanding in it.

Ooh, undead Druid. Like a Blighter only different.

Becoming a Withered Hand of Life
All Withered Hands of Life must be druids at some point in their career, however the path they take is often varied. Sometimes they take a few levels in rogue to extenuate their own stealth or into cleric to increase their knowledge of undead.
Entry Requirments
Class Features: Must be able to wild shape
Alignment: Neutral good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil
Special: Peaceful contact with at least one undead creature
Skills: Knowledge(nature) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks

...don't understand the need for stealth skills for an undead druid. I think you can reword the alignment requirement with just "any neutral", but don't hold me to that.

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d12

That seems good. That's a huge HD though. I think druid is a d8. Regardless, I'd use a druid HD.

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spellcasting
1st | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | Rebuke Undead, Expanded Spell list, Spontaneous Casting | +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
2nd | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | Wild Shape(+1/day)| +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
3rd | +1 | +1 | +1 | +3 | Ghost Companion |
4th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Wild Shape(+1/day), Wild Shape(Undead) | +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
5th | +2 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Spectral Companion | +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
6th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | Wild Shape(+1/day), Wild Shape(Incorporeal) |
7th | +3 | +2 | +2 | +5 | | +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
8th | +4 | +2 | +2 | +6 | Wild Shape(+1/day) | +1 level of existing Spellcasting class
9th | +4 | +3 | +3 | +6 | Wraith Companion |
10th | +5 | +3 | +3 | +7 | Wild Shape(+1/day), Withered Body| +1 level of existing Spellcasting class [/table]

Seems fine.

Spells per Day: From first level on a Withered Hand of Life gains spells per day as if he had also gained a level in the druid with the exception of levels 3,6 and 9.
class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a druid of that level would have gained(Wild Shape Improvements, Venom Immunity, etc.)

Hmm...losses three caster levels. Maybe a bit steep, but let's see those class features.

Rebuke Undead: Any Withered Hand, regardless of alignment,
has the power to rebuke or command undead creatures (such as skeletons,
zombies, ghosts, and vampires) by channeling the power of nature through any bone of a creature that has been dead for over one week. This ability works identically too the Cleric feature of the same name.
A Withered Hand may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A Withered Hand with 5 or more ranks in
Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against
undead.

Fits thematically. Perhaps have it stack with other uses (such as from cleric or dread necromancer).

Expanded Spell List: The Withered Hand gains the following spells added too his Druid spell list, he can prepare and cast them as normal druid spells
Level 0: Inflict Minor Wounds
Level 1: Inflict Light Wounds, Detect Undead, Summon Undead I
Level 2: Inflict Moderate Wounds, Death Knell, Command Undead, Summon Undead II
Level 3: Inflict Serious Wounds, Animate Dead, Speak with Dead, Vampiric Touch, Summon Undead III
Level 4: Inflict Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Summon Undead IV
Level 5: Inflict Light Wounds; Mass, Slay Living, Magic Jar, Summon Undead V
Level 6: Inflict Moderate Wounds; Mass, Create Undead
Level 7: Inflict Serious Wounds; Mass, Repulsion, Ethereal Jaunt, Control Undead
Level 8: Inflict Critical Wounds; Mass, Create Greater Undead
Level 9: Soul Bind, Etherealness, Astral Projection

Ooh, those are tasty necromancy spells. I approve.

Spontaneous Casting: At first level a Withered Hand of Life must choose too convert any spell he has prepared into either an "Inflict" spell or a "Summon Undead" spell of the appropriate level. This choice is permanent.

...um...I understand what you mean, but the wording's off. As written, it means at first level you have to convert all your spells into either of those two.

Edit: "A WHoL has the ability to spontaneously inflict harm or summon undead allies. At first level, you can choose to spontaneously convert any spell you cast into either an "inflict" spell or "summon undead" spell of equal level. Once this choice is made, you can not change it". Or something like that.

Wild shape: At every even numbered level you gain the ability to Wild Shape one additional time per day

Kay.

Ghost Companion: At third level the Withered Hands animal companion gains the Ghost Brute template from Savage Species

Not familiar with the template.

Wild Shape(Undead): Beginning at fourth level a Withered Hand of Life gains the ability to use his Wild Shape to assume the form of any corporal undead creature, he can also apply any corporal undead template to a creature he could otherwise wild shape into, every point of CR in the template is treated as one HD in the wild shaped creature. For example a Druid 5/Withered Hand 7 could Wild Shape into a Polar Bear Skeleton.

Eh, more wording issues. So when you apply an undead template to a corporeal creature, the CR increase is treated as additional HD to the base creature? Also, this is a VERY good ability, assuming i understand how Wild Shape works. Libris Mortis has some CRAZY undead creatures. Might want to check it out. I recommend limiting it to the undead template applied to regular creatures.

Spectral Companion: At fifth level the Withered Hand gains the "Spectral Creature" template, this replaces the ghost brute template gained at level 3

I assume you mean his Animal Companion gains the template.

Wild Shape(Incorporeal): At sixth level the withered hand may choose to wild shape into any incorporeal undead, he can also apply any incorporeal undead template to a creature he could otherwise wild shape into, every point of CR in the template is treated as one HD in the wild shaped creature.

And the shenanigans get crazier. I'm not one to talk of balance, but this seems REALLY good. Not Planar Shepherd level, but still mighty.

Wraith Companion:At ninth level the Withered Hand gains the "Wraith" template, this replaces the "Spectral Creature" template gained at level 5

(see "Sepctral Creature" comment)

Withered Body: At tenth level the Withered Hand of Life gains the undead template at all times, all of his previous hit dice become d12s and he looses his constitution score. He also gains all the other benefits of weaknesses of the Undead type.

Not bad. A cute little capstone.

IN SUMMARY: This class is either fun and thematic or overpowered hax. I'll let someone else make that call. Just fix the grammar and wording and you should be good.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-14, 04:43 PM

DragoonWraith

2010-07-14, 05:11 PM

Dragoon, your class references murder a good bit. Does it call out what you mean by murder? It is entirely possible I'm missing it. If murder is just killing something then I think any adventurer would fall victim to it which means it is probably a little too powerful in it's current form. I'm also a little leery of secret attack when you get the 10th level ability. But a good deal of that apprehension lies in what we are defining as murder.
Murder already has a specific definition - that is, the unlawful taking of another human (we'll take sentient for the D&D world) life. Unlawful here generally means that the target was not directly threatening you, though obvious exceptions abound (soldiers in war, official executions, etc; given the prevalence of fantastic racism in D&D, it is possible that certain races will be deemed unprotected by other races - mostly, it's setting dependent).

Basically, murder is much more than killing. Exactly what that entails is going to vary from campaign to campaign, but the oft-quoted sentiment about pornography - I'll know it when I see it - basically applies here. I don't think this is a problem. I mean, after all, the DM already has to adjudicate murder, for the sake of alignment - killing may or may not be Evil, but murder definitely is, and is probably anti-Chaotic, too, at least for certain values of Chaotic. The average Paladin will kill a great many things, but a single murder would no doubt mean his Fall.

JoshuaZ

2010-07-14, 05:26 PM

Quick PEACH of the Shadow Hand Assassin.

I like the PrC overall but the thing with the mouse assassin seems a bit silly. It sort of undermines an otherwise neat class. I'm also wondering if it can possibly have a better name since Shadow Hand Assassin seems pretty generic.

I'm not sure it makes sense for them to get Tiger Claw as a discipline since that's a discipline that doesn't involve much in the way of stealth or the like but rather straight combat.

Given that Step into Darkness involves turning into mist, I think it would make more sense as (su) rather than (ex).

At 10th level, the Shadow Hand Assassin gains knowledge of the most feared ability in their arsenal. Whenever a Shadow Hand Assassin delivers a killing blow to a victim he can choose to steal a small but vital bit of their essence that binds the soul to their physical body. While it is in his possession the victim cannot be raised or resurrected by any means. Even wish and miracle fail if used to attempt to bring the victim back to life. This stolen essence has no physical form and becomes part of the Shadow Hand Assassins soul until the stolen fragment expires. He can choose to release a stolen fragment as a full round action. If he chooses to retain it only the assassin’s death can allow the victim to be resurrected again. If the fragment is not released or the assassin is not killed within a year and a day the fragment withers away and the victim can never be resurrected by mortal magic.

I like this. Among other things it helps provide nice plothooks for adventurers. "Whenever a Shadow Hand Assassin delivers a killing blow to a victim he can choose to steal a small but vital bit of their essence that binds the soul to their physical body."- The wording here is a bit confusing. I'd say instead "Whenever a Shadow Hand Assassin delivers a killing blow to a victim he can choose to steal a small but vital bit of their essence that binds the soul to the assassin's physical body." Also "becomes part of the Shadow Hand Assassins soul" is missing an apostrophe. It might make sense to only restrict this ability to marked victims. Also you may want to specify what creatures have souls for purposes of this ability. For example, can this ability be used on undead beings? (There's a spell in Libris Mortis to resurrect undead beings). Similarly, to prevent Awaken Undead and similar shennanigans it may make sense to specify that the fragment possession also interferes with effects that would make an undead being out of the corpse. It would be nice if it also prevented any effects from functioning that rely on memories in the corpse such as Speak with Dead.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-14, 05:37 PM

Murder already has a specific definition - that is, the unlawful taking of another human (we'll take sentient for the D&D world) life. Unlawful here generally means that the target was not directly threatening you, though obvious exceptions abound (soldiers in war, official executions, etc; given the prevalence of fantastic racism in D&D, it is possible that certain races will be deemed unprotected by other races - mostly, it's setting dependent).

Basically, murder is much more than killing. Exactly what that entails is going to vary from campaign to campaign, but the oft-quoted sentiment about pornography - I'll know it when I see it - basically applies here. I don't think this is a problem. I mean, after all, the DM already has to adjudicate murder, for the sake of alignment - killing may or may not be Evil, but murder definitely is, and is probably anti-Chaotic, too, at least for certain values of Chaotic. The average Paladin will kill a great many things, but a single murder would no doubt mean his Fall.

And much like pornography opinion can vary wildly on what does and doesn't qualify. I can understand your point, but having guidelines in the class write up of what the intent of the scope of ability would be helpful. Your description of murder might be one of those things that spawn arguments like alignments do. For example if a paladin hunts down some evil wretch who hasn't done anything wrong in any area the paladin actually has legal authority in and then smites him to next week is that killing or murder? Even if his god says it's ok? Like I said, just a little blurb I think would help clarify the issue.

Example: Murder in this case is defined as killing a sentient creature solely for profit, personal gratification, or due to lack of impulse control by the attacking creature. Attacking helpless creatures always counts as murder.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I am just stating an issue I see. I did want to add that I do like the overall flavor of the dark avenger archetype.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-14, 05:43 PM

Quick PEACH of the Shadow Hand Assassin.

I like the PrC overall but the thing with the mouse assassin seems a bit silly. It sort of undermines an otherwise neat class. I'm also wondering if it can possibly have a better name since Shadow Hand Assassin seems pretty generic.

Well that was the chracter that actually spawned the concept. I could drop it, but I was amused by it. Not a big deal one or the other. I'm not really sure about a better name. I'm open for suggestions.

I'm not sure it makes sense for them to get Tiger Claw as a discipline since that's a discipline that doesn't involve much in the way of stealth or the like but rather straight combat.

Correct, SHA do have a heavy combat element to them and it is a more direct damage option then setting sun if that is the way you want to play it.

Given that Step into Darkness involves turning into mist, I think it would make more sense as (su) rather than (ex).

And I fail copy/paste... :smalltongue:

I like this. Among other things it helps provide nice plothooks for adventurers. "Whenever a Shadow Hand Assassin delivers a killing blow to a victim he can choose to steal a small but vital bit of their essence that binds the soul to their physical body."- The wording here is a bit confusing. I'd say instead "Whenever a Shadow Hand Assassin delivers a killing blow to a victim he can choose to steal a small but vital bit of their essence that binds the soul to the assassin's physical body." Also "becomes part of the Shadow Hand Assassins soul" is missing an apostrophe. It might make sense to only restrict this ability to marked victims. Also you may want to specify what creatures have souls for purposes of this ability. For example, can this ability be used on undead beings? (There's a spell in Libris Mortis to resurrect undead beings). Similarly, to prevent Awaken Undead and similar shennanigans it may make sense to specify that the fragment possession also interferes with effects that would make an undead being out of the corpse. It would be nice if it also prevented any effects from functioning that rely on memories in the corpse such as Speak with Dead.

Excellent points. I will clear up the wording and add in a side-note about only working on marked targets and what creatures are susceptible to this ability. Thank you.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-14, 05:50 PM

And much like pornography opinion can vary wildly on what does and doesn't qualify. I can understand your point, but having guidelines in the class write up of what the intent of the scope of ability would be helpful. Your description of murder might be one of those things that spawn arguments like alignments do. For example if a paladin hunts down some evil wretch who hasn't done anything wrong in any area the paladin actually has legal authority in and then smites him to next week is that killing or murder? Even if his god says it's ok? Like I said, just a little blurb I think would help clarify the issue.

Example: Murder in this case is defined as killing a sentient creature solely for profit, personal gratification, or due to lack of impulse control by the attacking creature. Attacking helpless creatures always counts as murder.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I am just stating an issue I see.
I see it as far too intrinsically tied to a given campaign setting to dictate it to DMs. Yes, the definition of murder will vary, and yes, a player and the DM should clarify on what is and isn't murder before this class comes into play (assuming it's being played). But that said, the class is entirely to do with vigilantism; these murders were deaths that should not have happened, so cosmicly wrong that its witness triggers this in people. Under what circumstances something is that wrong, however, will depend.

Still, I'm not entirely happy with the class at the moment; I do intend to work on it some more, especially some of the progression and the capstone, as well as some of the fluff. I'll keep this in mind when I do.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-14, 05:53 PM

Still, I'm not entirely happy with the class at the moment; I do intend to work on it some more, especially some of the progression and the capstone, as well as some of the fluff. I'll keep this in mind when I do.

What elements are you unhappy with?

DragoonWraith

2010-07-14, 06:19 PM

That's the main issue; I'm not entirely sure. Very vague feeling of it being incomplete.

JoshuaZ

2010-07-14, 07:34 PM

PEACH of Withered Hand:

The Withered Hand gains the following spells added too his Druid spell list, he can prepare and cast them as normal druid spells

Typo- this should read "to his Druid spell list." The "too" for "to" typo occurs a few other times
such as "This ability works identically too the Cleric feature of the same name." You may want to go through and look over all of them. One uses "too" only when one is talking about quantities (i.e. too much, too little, too nitpicky and pedantic about grammar, etc.). All other uses are "to" unless it is the number "two."

There's also some minor formatting issues. You have some line returns that shouldn't be there, such as in Spells per a day and in Rebuke Undead.

You refer to "savage species" a few times. Since this is a book it should be "Savage Species."

Ok. Now on to the more substantive stuff:

Rebuke undead: should probably specify that levels stack with cleric levels if they have any other source of rebuking.

Spontaneous Casting- The wording is confusing. I'd say "A Withered Hand of Life has the ability to spontaneously inflict harm or summon undead allies. At first level, you choose either to be able to spontaneously convert any spell you cast into an "inflict" spell of equal level or to be able to spontaneously convert any spell you can cast into a "summon undead" spell of equal level. Once this choice is made, you can not change it.

7th level is basically a dead level, with no increase in BABs or saves, no special abilities and nothing but +1 to casting level. Maybe move Wild Shape(Incorporeal) from 6th to 7th level?

JoshuaZ

2010-07-14, 07:37 PM

Example: Murder in this case is defined as killing a sentient creature solely for profit, personal gratification, or due to lack of impulse control by the attacking creature. Attacking helpless creatures always counts as murder.

If profit counts then much of what many adventurers do will count as murder. And any killing by a mercenary even of a soldier then becomes murder also. Impulse control seems particularly hard to define (is it a lack of impulse control when a werewolf kills people?) DragoonWraith's approach of leaving it setting specific seems to make more sense.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-14, 09:38 PM

If profit counts then much of what many adventurers do will count as murder. And any killing by a mercenary even of a soldier then becomes murder also. Impulse control seems particularly hard to define (is it a lack of impulse control when a werewolf kills people?) DragoonWraith's approach of leaving it setting specific seems to make more sense.

It was more an example then a definitive definition.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-15, 06:02 AM

Zagan
Why d12 ? Just to use the undead HD size ?

That's pretty much my only reason for it, I figure it makes it easier for them later. I thought I offset it with a worse BaB and saves than a normal druid

Spells per Day: You might want to use the standard blurd for advancing spellcasting, see the SRD. 3 lost caster level seem a little much. I remark it only advance druid spellcasting but they are way to enter the prc without it, wildshape ranger come to mind for example but they are other way so you might want to just progresse any divine casting. If you want to limit the class to druid you need to make the requirement so only druid can enter druidic as language could probably do the trick.
Druidic Language is a good idea :)
And you said yourself the wildshape abilities are very powerful, I was intitally thinking only losing three caster levels wasn't enough

Ghost companion: Okay, ghost brute template, being incorporeal as some drawback but it probably also mean that it's less vulnerable so there's that. Two thing, first a no point you say that withered hand level progress animal companion ability so you might want to rectify that, second what happened if you don't have an animal companion there's numerous way to not gain it even for a druid Alternate class feature mostly.
I have added it to the requirments :) thank yo

Wild Shape(Undead): Fitting but perhaps too powerfull. Any undead template is a lot and some of them are really powerfull even with very little CR. You should probably limit it a little.
Short of listing exactly what undead you can wildshape into I don't see how to do that.

Withered Body: The "undead template" ? The wording is weird generally it's something like "the creature type change to undead and gain....etc"
Changed it to type, thank you (wording is a challenge for me)

Fluff: A few thing still missing but what you have isn't bad.
Thank you

Conclusions: Not a bad start, you need to work on the wording, compare it to some official work to find the right way or even other homebrew work. Still the idea is interesting and just need some polishing.

I really appreciate the PEACH, I made most of the wording changes you suggested

Forever Curious

Ooh, undead Druid. Like a Blighter only different.

:smallannoyed: I...guess...so? Um, I have always kind of hated blighters because they are the druids who hate themselves for being a druid, and druids my friend are awesome.

...don't understand the need for stealth skills for an undead druid. I think you can reword the alignment requirement with just "any neutral", but don't hold me to that.

I'd prefer to leave the alignment the way it is, just because. And the stealth skills thing came from my idea to make a stealthy druid, initially this was a class that specialized in wildshaping into small animals to gain hide bonuses. Then I said to myself "just make him incoporeal" and that evolved into Withered Hand of Life

That seems good. That's a huge HD though. I think druid is a d8. Regardless, I'd use a druid HD.
me to that.

I wanted to make it simpler when they changed to undead. Also I thought themacticly it would be them slowly becoming undead

Hmm...losses three caster levels. Maybe a bit steep, but let's see those class features.

You never said if you felt the class features supplemented it...

Fits thematically. Perhaps have it stack with other uses (such as from cleric or dread necromancer).

I keep getting that, I am working on the wording so it doesn't look like I vomited on the page

...um...I understand what you mean, but the wording's off. As written, it means at first level you have to convert all your spells into either of those two.

Edit: "A WHoL has the ability to spontaneously inflict harm or summon undead allies. At first level, you can choose to spontaneously convert any spell you cast into either an "inflict" spell or "summon undead" spell of equal level. Once this choice is made, you can not change it". Or something like that.

Oh look, I copy-pasted that. Thank you very much :) by now it is becoming clear wording isn't my strong suit

Not familiar with the template.

I have now labled where all of them are from :)

Eh, more wording issues. So when you apply an undead template to a corporeal creature, the CR increase is treated as additional HD to the base creature? Also, this is a VERY good ability, assuming i understand how Wild Shape works. Libris Mortis has some CRAZY undead creatures. Might want to check it out. I recommend limiting it to the undead template applied to regular creatures.

That would limit it well, good idea

I assume you mean his Animal Companion gains the template.

Yeah, sorry for that

IN SUMMARY: This class is either fun and thematic or overpowered hax. I'll let someone else make that call. Just fix the grammar and wording and you should be good.
Thanks a ton for your input, Great idea on balancing wildshape(undead)
JoshuaZ

PEACH of Withered Hand:
Typo- this should read "to his Druid spell list." The "too" for "to" typo occurs a few other times
such as "This ability works identically too the Cleric feature of the same name." You may want to go through and look over all of them. One uses "too" only when one is talking about quantities (i.e. too much, too little, too nitpicky and pedantic about grammar, etc.). All other uses are "to" unless it is the number "two."
Sorry, my english teacher didn't teach me english. Fun story behind that, actually a plathora of fun stories. I knew I got that wrong.

There's also some minor formatting issues. You have some line returns that shouldn't be there, such as in Spells per a day and in Rebuke Undead.

Line returns?

You refer to "savage species" a few times. Since this is a book it should be "Savage Species."
Right away sir, going to get it done.

Rebuke undead: should probably specify that levels stack with cleric levels if they have any other source of rebuking.
I keep getting that suggestion, working on the wording

Spontaneous Casting- The wording is confusing. I'd say "A Withered Hand of Life has the ability to spontaneously inflict harm or summon undead allies. At first level, you choose either to be able to spontaneously convert any spell you cast into an "inflict" spell of equal level or to be able to spontaneously convert any spell you can cast into a "summon undead" spell of equal level. Once this choice is made, you can not change it.

Thank you, I am having problems wording that

7th level is basically a dead level, with no increase in BABs or saves, no special abilities and nothing but +1 to casting level. Maybe move Wild Shape(Incorporeal) from 6th to 7th level?
GOOD IDEA!!!! I was killing myself thinking of a new feature to put into that level. Gonna still think about it though, It would be nice if you only gained wildshape abilities when you gain wild shape uses

Thank you very much for your input!

JoshuaZ

2010-07-15, 05:06 PM

GOOD IDEA!!!! I was killing myself thinking of a new feature to put into that level. Gonna still think about it though, It would be nice if you only gained wildshape abilities when you gain wild shape uses

Hmm, if you need something else at that level, it should be something not too strong. How about, for making knowledge(religion) checks related to undead you can apply any bonuses you get that would normally apply to knowledge(nature)? That's thematic but not too strong.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-15, 07:21 PM

Hmm, if you need something else at that level, it should be something not too strong. How about, for making knowledge(religion) checks related to undead you can apply any bonuses you get that would normally apply to knowledge(nature)? That's thematic but not too strong.

You are like somekind of genius or something :)

Arbitrarious

2010-07-15, 10:02 PM

Doctor Acula

2010-07-16, 07:30 AM

In that same line of thinking, Undead empathy to replace wild empathy? Let them influence mindless undead. Just a thought.

I was going to do that as a level 1 ability, I replaced it with rebuking. I tihnk it's pretty much the same thing

Arbitrarious

2010-07-16, 08:06 AM

I was going to do that as a level 1 ability, I replaced it with rebuking. I tihnk it's pretty much the same thing

The problem IMO is a great deal of unintelligent undead tend to have massive HD for their CR which makes rebuking difficult. At mid levels and higher you have an easier time controlling powerful undead even with +4 turn resistance then a fricking zombie who is packing more then twice it's CR in HD. Same for skeletons.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-16, 08:22 AM

The problem IMO is a great deal of unintelligent undead tend to have massive HD for their CR which makes rebuking difficult. At mid levels and higher you have an easier time controlling powerful undead even with +4 turn resistance then a fricking zombie who is packing more then twice it's CR in HD. Same for skeletons.
I've never known that, I dont actually play necromancers so I don't know basic things like this.

ErrantX

2010-07-16, 09:10 AM

Just an update for the halfway mark for those of you who have entered in. I'm going to be a bit stricter this contest due to the mishaps of the last one, so here we go...

Rauthiss - Covert Array: Fun class, very neat conceptually. Problem is is that the fluff isn't finished and will be disqualified if not finished.

Forever Curious - Shade Touched: Also neat, heavily emphasizing the contest's name, less I think on what the contest is about but it is in there. Also needs finishing with the fluff, which will go a long way towards making me feel that this class is totally in line with the contest's theme.

Cooperflood - Master Thief: This is very classic for the theme of the contest and a good effort. Again, I need some fluff or I have to disqualify it.

Doctor Acula - Withered Hand of Life: Your concept and ideas for this class are good... but I fail to see how this class meets the theme of the contest. I'm asking for sneaks and scoundrels, and this is an undead druid. While I don't think this meets the qualifications of the contest, if you don't think you can at the very least make it fit, I'd suggest removing it from the contest and reposting in the Homebrew forum as a separate entity, it's definitely neat and should be well received.

Alrighty, other than the above comments, so far so good. Everyone else has done a great job with their classes and seem to me to be in accord with the theme of the contest (or dang close enough).

-X

Doctor Acula

2010-07-16, 09:17 AM

Doctor Acula - Withered Hand of Life: Your concept and ideas for this class are good... but I fail to see how this class meets the theme of the contest. I'm asking for sneaks and scoundrels, and this is an undead druid. While I don't think this meets the qualifications of the contest, if you don't think you can at the very least make it fit, I'd suggest removing it from the contest and reposting in the Homebrew forum as a separate entity, it's definitely neat and should be well received.
-X

yeah... I was kind of worried about that after I posted it so I have two or three back up concepts. Would you mind if I tore down Withered Hand of Life and put up a different class?

ErrantX

2010-07-16, 09:32 AM

yeah... I was kind of worried about that after I posted it so I have two or three back up concepts. Would you mind if I tore down Withered Hand of Life and put up a different class?

No, by all means, if you have a new concept you've got almost 2 weeks to finish it. I like your class, please don't get the impression that I don't. It just doesn't fit the theme of the contest. Please repost it in the main homebrew forum if you do decide to pull it down. :smallsmile:

-X

Doctor Acula

2010-07-16, 09:42 AM

No, by all means, if you have a new concept you've got almost 2 weeks to finish it. I like your class, please don't get the impression that I don't. It just doesn't fit the theme of the contest. Please repost it in the main homebrew forum if you do decide to pull it down. :smallsmile:

-X

Okay, do you think that the following classes would fit the theme allright:

A merchant guild tied to the plane of shadows who uses the plane of shadows as a way traverse great distances rapidly. Mechanically they gain the ability to plain shift to the plane of shadow and use shadows a dimension doors, they also gain a kind of "planar skirmish" based on them using one of the abilities mentioned above

Other idea (which I feel is more boring) is a highway man who uses his skill with his horse too pull off robberies. Mechanically his horse gets some stat bonuses and he gets some abilities for stealthy riding, bonuses to intimidate while on his horse, etc.

ErrantX

2010-07-16, 10:58 AM

Okay, do you think that the following classes would fit the theme allright:

A merchant guild tied to the plane of shadows who uses the plane of shadows as a way traverse great distances rapidly. Mechanically they gain the ability to plain shift to the plane of shadow and use shadows a dimension doors, they also gain a kind of "planar skirmish" based on them using one of the abilities mentioned above

Other idea (which I feel is more boring) is a highway man who uses his skill with his horse too pull off robberies. Mechanically his horse gets some stat bonuses and he gets some abilities for stealthy riding, bonuses to intimidate while on his horse, etc.

Either is fine, so do the one you'd find more fun.

-X

Rauthiss

2010-07-18, 07:59 PM

My new class is up. I trashed the covert array for something new. PEACHES are appreciated.

Forever Curious

2010-07-18, 09:51 PM

Time for another PEACH...

Shadowpath Trader

Sweet name. I'm only going to evaluate the crunch, as per usual.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills:Appraise 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks or Bluff 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Plains) 4 ranks
Special: Must be trained by another Shadowpath Trader for one week on the Plane of Shadow

Hm, decent requirements. Nothing too stringent.

[color=maroon]Class Skills
The Shadowpath Trader's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha) and Use Rope
Skills Points at Each Level: 6+ int

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|[center]+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Shadow Walk, Hidden Chest

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Shadow Jump 10 ft., Cunning Appraisal

3rd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Shadow Skirmish(1d6), Not one to be Cheated

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Shadow Jump 20 ft., Fast Talk

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Trade Routes, Armor Appraisal

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Shadow Jump 40 ft., Shadow Skirmish(2d6)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Chronicle, Wanderer's Diplomacy

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Shadow Jump 80 ft., Charming Salesman

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Shadow Skirmish(3d6), True Appraisal

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Shadow Jump 160 ft., Likable Personality[/table]

Very rouge-based...plus a good Will save.

Shadow Walk (Sp): As a spell-like ability a Shadowpath Trader may use the spell Shadow Walk a number of times equal to his Shadowpath Trader level . His caster level for this is her Shadowpath Trader level.

Hm, free once-per-day teleportation at first level... I'd say it's dippable, but the skill requirements might balance it.

Hidden Chest (Sp): All Shadowpath Traders have a chest hidden in the Plane of Shadows that can only be opened by them. The chest's interior size is one foot by one foot per Shadowpath Trader level regardless of it's actual size. If the Shadowpath Trader is away from her chest she may access it by reaching into any shadow as a standard action, this functions like a bag of holding.

Living things in the chest eat, sleep, and age normally, and they die if they run out of food, air, water, or whatever they need to survive.

I think the "this functions as a bag of holding" line is a little misleading. It clearly doesn't function as a bag of holding. You can probably cut that and it would make just as much sense.

Otherwise, this a fun flavorful and extremely useful ability. I like it.

Shadow Jump (Su): At 2nd level, a Shadowpath Trader gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A Shadowpath Trader can jump up to a total of 10 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 10 feet or two jumps of 5 feet each. Every two levels higher than 2th, the distance a Shadowpath Trader can jump each day doubles (20 feet at 4th, 40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 5-foot increment. (A 6th-level Shadowpath Trader who jumps 37 feet cannot jump again until the next day.)

Wow, Shadow Jump at a level where it's actually useful. Approve.

Cunning Appraisal (Ex): At 2nd level a Shadowpath Trader can use the Appraise skill to determine a magic item's properties. This use of the Appraise skill requires 8 hours of uninterrupted work. The DC of the Appraise check is 10 + the caster level of the item.

That's a very low DC for the amount of time you're putting into it. i'd say either reduce the time or up the DC.

Shadow Skirmish (Ex): A Shadowpath Trader can use her mobility to gain the upper hand on a foe. She deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks she makes during any round in which she uses her Shadow Jump ability. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the Shadowpath Trader’s turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every three levels gained above 3rd (2d6 at 6th and 3d6 at 9th).

The extra damage only applies against living creatures that have a discernible anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The scout must be able to see the target well eough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Shadowpath Traders can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while Shadow Skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet.

This ability is literally unusable. Shadow Jump as written implies the use of a standard action, and therefore no attacks during that round. Plus I'd think Shadow Jump would be better used fleeing rather than engaging in combat. I just think this ability doesn't belong, frankly.

Not one to be Cheated (Ex): Any good trader can spot a liar, from 3rd level on a Shadowpath Trader can use the Appraise skill for all purposes of the Sense Motive skill

Heh, this is nifty. I like it.

Fast Talk (Ex): At 4th level, the Shadowpath Trader knows the right thing to say at the right time. She may make a rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action at only a –5 penalty.

Eh, nothing fancy.

Trade Routes (Ex): A Shadowpath Trader makes her own special trade routes which allow her to navigate the Plane of Shadow swiftly and accurately. Begining at 5th level whenever a Shadowpath Trader uses "Shadow Walk" as a spell-like ability she can move at a rate of 100 miles per hour. Furthermore she can predict exactly where she will end up and isn't shunted in a random direction when the spell ends.

This is a rather powerful ability, but not broken. Just makes you a better teleporter, I guess.

Armor Appraisal(Ex): A Shadowpath Trader may use the Appraise skill to see the flaws in an opponents armor. As a standard action the Shadowpath Trader may make an Appraise check with a DC equal to the opponent's AC, if the check succeeds the Shadowpath Trader ignores the opponent's armor bonus to AC

This is fun, but might be granted at too late a level to really matter. Maybe allow allies to gain the benefits of this, or have them get this as a lower level ability.

Chronicle(Ex): Begining at level 7 a Shadowpath Trader may make a DC 20 Appraise check to determine any non-magical item's age. For a magical item the DC is 20+the caster level of the item.

I can't see this being useful at all outside of roleplaying terms, which isn't bad but isn't good either...

Wanderer's Diplomacy(Ex): At 7th level a Shadowpath Trader gains the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites

Tee hee, fun feat. Love it.

Charming Salesman(Ex): When selling weapons, magic items, & other adventuring goods, you get 75% of list price instead of 50%.

this COULD be broken alongside an artificer to earn hax gold. I do like it, though.

True Appraisal (Su): A Shadowpath Trader knows how to see things the way that they are. From 9th level on a Shadowpath Trader can use the spell True Seeing as an Appraisal check with a DC of 25. This ability is a standard action.

...so, assuming max ranks and a +3 Intelligence modifier, a 10 or higher grants true seeing with no limit. This is VERY good, perhaps too good. Plus there's no duration or number of times allowed per day.

Likable Personality (Ex): Beginning at 10th level a Shadowpath Trader's charm reaches new levels, she projects an aura of friendship 30 ft. around her causing all creatures within the aura to increase their attitudes towards her by one level (Unfriendly becoming Indifferent, Indifferent becoming friendly, etc.) However if she directly threatens or aids in the threatening of the welfare of the creature this affect is negated.

...eh, this doesn't effect PCs at all I don't think. Perhaps give them Suggestion or Charm Person as spell-like abilities. As is, this ability is very weak.

Conclusion: I really want to like this class, but I'm not sure whether it's good, broken, or horrible.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-18, 10:09 PM

PEACHes are also appreciated for my new class, Shadowpath Trader

Some PEACH for Rauthiss

The Improviser

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs14/f/2007/014/8/9/A_Tribute_to_MacGyver_by_Aderwyn.jpg
(Credit to Aderwyn (http://aderwyn.deviantart.com/) of Deviantart)

"Eh, it’ll have to do." – Gyver, a Human improviser

There often come times when a rogue, for some reason or another, must act without having his weapons openly. Some choose to hide their weapons, but an Improviser would rather use what he can find at the location. Many are daredevils, in the profession for the thrill, but just as many use their talents for assassinations, killing their targets with whatever they can find.

A cool concept, but one that frightens me due to the way I can say "I'm improvising!" with any weapon I am not proficient with, any DM with a brain worth it's weight in stone will put a stop to that though.

BECOMING AN IMPROVISER
The large majority of improvisers are rogues that have simply chosen to fight with uncommon weapons, or have found themselves in situations where they needed to improvise.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Class Skills: Sneak attack or similar precision damage +1d6
Skills: Sleight of Hand 8 ranks, Craft (Any) 6 ranks
Special: Must have adventured without using “proper” equipment for 24 hours.

The entry requirements are fine, I just don't see the need for Sleight of Hand. Further more why do they only need 6 ranks in craft (which appears to me to be more of what this class is about in concept)

Class Skills
The Covert Array's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skills Points at Each Level: 6 + int

Hit Dice: d6

Good skill list, but I would throw in some knowledge skills, Macgyver was a physics major after all.

Weapon Proficiencies: The Improviser gains proficiency with all improvised weapons. (This removes the typical -4 penalty. However, improvised weapons are still under DM discretion as to what kind of weapon they are equivalent to. In addition, this does not grant you proficiency with the equivalent of any item you are not normally proficient in.)

And there it is, my fears from earlier are suppressed, now lets move on and see the lovely features

Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): In addition to becoming able to use improvised weapons without penalty, an improviser also learns to wield them more effectively than regular weapons. An improviser gains a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls with all improvised weapons. This bonus increases by 1 every level. In addition, any improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 30 feet.

I can get behind this, it makes alot of sense and doesn't seem crazy broken to me.

On The Spot Defense (Ex): Not content with only being able to whip up an offense in a situation, a second level improviser also learns how to protect himself. He gains the ability to improvise armor in a similar way as improvised weapons.
This follows all normal rules for improvised weapons – the DM decides the rough equivalent of the item. This ability also grants the improviser proficiency with that item, removing nonproficiency penalties. Unlike proficiency with improvised weapons, this also grants the user proficiency with the item’s equivalent for as long as it is improvised – a rogue with this ability could improvise a large shield, and take no nonproficiency penalties, for example.
This ability is typically used with shields, but sometimes used with actual armor – a large rug wrapped around the body, for instance, could function as the equivalent of leather armor.

I don't think there are enough feasible armor for the second half of the ability to work, also I think if I wrapped myself in a rug I would take movement penalties as well as the loss of my arms (depending on length of the rug)

I Don’t Need Those (Ex): An Improviser doesn’t depend on tools to be able to do things – one of third level or higher has honed his skills to the point of not needing them at all. He takes no penalties for not having tools needed for specific skill checks. The skills most commonly associated with this ability are Open Lock and Disable Device – The improviser need not carry around a set of thieves’ tools.

Good ability, I would like it to scale to masterwork eventually.

Didn’t Expect That (Ex): An improviser of level 4 learns to take advantage of his opponent’s unfamiliarity with his weaponry to strike at them to great effect. When an improviser sneak attacks using an improvised weapon, he may make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by the target’s spot check. If the improviser succeeds, the attack is a critical threat. In addition, if the critical hit succeeds, the improviser’s sneak attack dice are multiplied along with the normal damage.

I now see the need for sleight of hand, I would say the sneak attack multiplying is broken but for five levels you cut them off so I can see it being powerful, but allright

I’ve Got Just The Thing (Su): An improviser tends to collect small items and trinkets that he may find useful in his travels and puts them into a small bag. As long as this bag is on his person, an improviser may pull any mundane, non-weapon, non-armor item below 100 GP from it. This ability functions 10 times before the improviser must spend 500 GP to “reload” his bag. The bag is quasimagical; it does not have any magical aura and it is not stopped in an antimagic field, but the bag can hold items that its dimensions would indicate that it normally could not, such as ladders. Many improvisers chalk this effect up to “It works. I’m not going to ask why.”

Weird, but very cool. My only question is does it fit as a capstone? It doesn't really affect the whole "Improvised weapon" theme

Conclusion: Alot of fun stuff here, my only suggestion is to switch your level 5 and 4 abilities

Rauthiss

2010-07-18, 10:15 PM

DOCTOR ACULA: I'm PEACHING you because I want DELICIOUS FRUIT... unless it falls up. D:

My comments are in bold.

I'll handle this quick - there are a LOT of spelling and grammar mistakes here. I sent you a PM where I fixed them all, as well as some wonky wordings. You can just copy paste it into your post, if you'd like to.
Shadowpath Trader

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2005/004/8/e/Merchant_by_Keithwormwood.jpg

"Let's see here I've got poisons, scrolls, crossbows, wine, wands and major historical and religious artifacts. What's your fancy?"-Gorrimir Bumbble describing his wares

Money makes the world go round, and noone knows that fact better than a merchant. Whether it's selling pants or selling polearms the people who always come up on top are the people who get the money. And the merchants who get the most money sell things that can't be gotten anywhere else. If that is from goods so far away noone else has them or goods so illegal no one else is willing to sell them.

Shadowpath Traders are a guild dedicated to doing just that. Through the Plane of Shadow they travel great distances, store their goods and hoard their money. A Shadowpath Trader is more than a mere traveling salesman, he is a wanderer, an a appraiser, a curator and most of all he is a very rich man.

BECOMING A SHADOWPATH TRADER
Many rogues or spelltheives become Shadowpath Traders and even more bards join the prestige class, however the Shadowpath Traders have a high number of commoner and expert members. Very few scouts join due to the classes need for charisma.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills:Appraise 8 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks or Bluff 8 ranks, Knowledge (The Plains) 4 ranks
Special: Must be trained by another Shadowpath Trader for one week on the Plane of Shadow
Why would someone need to know about grasslands to get into the class? Also, how does one get to the Plane of Shadow in order to be trained?

Class Skills
The Shadowpath Trader's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha) and Use Rope
Skills Points at Each Level: 6+ int

Hoo boy, that's one heck of a skill list. Some things seem odd to me - Why does a merchant get climb and tumble, but not intimidate?

Hit Dice: d6

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Shadow Walk, Hidden Chest

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Shadow Jump 10 ft., Cunning Appraisal

3rd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Shadow Skirmish(1d6), Not one to be Cheated

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Shadow Jump 20 ft., Fast Talk

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Trade Routes, Armor Appraisal

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Shadow Jump 40 ft., Shadow Skirmish(2d6)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Chronicle, Wanderer's Diplomacy

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Shadow Jump 80 ft., Charming Salesman

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Shadow Skirmish(3d6), True Appraisal

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Shadow Jump 160 ft., Likable Personality[/table]
Weapon Proficiencies: A Shadowpath Trader gains no proficiencies with any weapons or armor.

Shadow Walk (Sp): As a spell-like ability, a Shadowpath Trader may use the spell Shadow Walk a number of times per day equal to his Shadowpath Trader level. His caster level for this is equal to his Shadowpath Trader level. It is what it is.

Hidden Chest (Sp): All Shadowpath Traders have a chest hidden in the Plane of Shadows that can only be opened by them. The chest's interior size is one foot by one foot per Shadowpath Trader level regardless of it's actual size. If the Shadowpath Trader is away from her chest she may access it by reaching into any shadow as a standard action. This functions like a Bag of Holding.

Living things in the chest eat, sleep, and age normally. They die if they run out of food, air, water, or whatever they need to survive. We had a discussion about this - Who can open the chest? Where is it? (extradimensional space?) Perfect Phylactery Lich hiding place? I'd like to see some more on this ability.

Shadow Jump (Su): At 2nd level, a Shadowpath Trader gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a Dimension Door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some shadow. A Shadowpath Trader can jump up to a total of 10 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 10 feet or two jumps of 5 feet each. Every two levels higher than 2th, the distance a Shadowpath Trader can jump each day doubles (20 feet at 4th, 40 feet at 6th, 80 feet at 8th, and 160 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 5-foot increment. (A 6th-level Shadowpath Trader who jumps 37 feet cannot jump again until the next day.)
Can you use your own shadow? If not, this should be specified, like in the shadowdancer. Also, since it is an ability that is like a spell, why is it supernatural, not a Spell-like ability?

Cunning Appraisal (Ex): At 2nd level a Shadowpath Trader can use the Appraise skill to determine a magic item's properties. This use of the Appraise skill requires 8 hours of uninterrupted work. The DC of this Appraise check is 10 + the caster level of the item.
Good lord, that's a while. I'd decrease the time.

Shadow Skirmish (Ex): A Shadowpath Trader can use his mobility to gain the upper hand on a foe. He deals an extra 1d6 points of damage on all attacks he makes during any round in which he uses his Shadow Jump ability. The extra damage applies only to attacks taken during the Shadowpath Trader’s turn. This extra damage increases by 1d6 for every three levels gained above 3rd (2d6 at 6th and 3d6 at 9th).
This has MAJOR PROBLEM. See FC's DELICIOUS FRUIT.

The extra damage only applies against living creatures that have a discernible anatomy. Undead, constructs, oozes, plants, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to extra damage from critical hits are not vulnerable to this additional damage. The Shadowpath Trader must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. Shadowpath Traders can apply this extra damage to ranged attacks made while Shadow Skirmishing, but only if the target is within 30 feet.
This could probably be done shorter by saying this effect is precision damage.

Not One to be Cheated (Ex): Any good trader can spot a liar. From 3rd level on, a Shadowpath Trader can use an Appraise skill check instead of any Sense Motive skill check, including opposed ones.
This is a cool ability.

Fast Talk (Ex): At 4th level, the Shadowpath Trader knows the right thing to say at the right time. He may make a rushed Diplomacy check as a full-round action at only a –5 penalty.
It is what it is

Trade Routes (Ex): A Shadowpath Trader makes her own special trade routes which allow her to navigate the Plane of Shadow swiftly and accurately. Begining at 5th level, whenever a Shadowpath Trader uses his Shadow Walk spell-like ability he can move at a rate of 100 miles per hour. Furthermore, he can predict exactly where he will end up and isn't shunted in a random direction when the spell ends.
Sounds good.

Armor Appraisal(Ex): A Shadowpath Trader may use the Appraise skill to see the flaws in an opponent's armor. As a standard action, the Shadowpath Trader may make an Appraise check with a DC equal to the opponent's Armor Class. If the check succeeds, the Shadowpath Trader ignores the opponent's armor bonus to AC.
A combat ability? Egad! It is what it is.

Chronicle(Ex): Beginning at level 7, a Shadowpath Trader may make a DC 20 Appraise check to determine any non-magical item's age. For a magical item the DC is 20+the caster level of the item.
Fluff-only abilities? cool.

Wanderer's Diplomacy(Ex): At 7th level, a Shadowpath Trader gains the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
Cool.

Charming Salesman(Ex): When selling weapons, magic items, & other adventuring goods, a level 8 or higher Shadowpath Trader gets 75% of list price instead of 50%.
Cool.

True Appraisal (Su): A Shadowpath Trader knows how to see things the way that they are. From 9th level on, a Shadowpath Trader can make an Appraisal check with a DC of 25 to gain the effects of the spell True Seeing for 1 minute. This ability is a standard action.
Good. :D

Likable Personality (Ex): [/B]Beginning at 10th level, a Shadowpath Trader's charm reaches new levels. He projects an aura of friendship 30 ft. around him causing all creatures within the aura to increase their attitudes towards him by one stage. (Unfriendly becomes Indifferent, Indifferent becomes friendly, etc.) However, if he directly threatens or aids in the threatening of the welfare of the creature, this effect is negated.
Cool.

I DON'T PEACH FLUFF.
PLAYING A SHADOWPATH TRADER
A Shadowpath trader is a party-face. Who else could sell ice to the Eskimos? They make great fifth party members with their broad skill list and their spell like abilities they can cover holes left in some parties.
Combat: Although a good salesman should never need to resort to violence sometimes, sadly, negotiation fails and that is when combat begins. A Shadowpath Trader will use his Shadow Jump ability to gain the element of surprise on their enemies and then use their shadow skirmish ability.
Advancement: As a character advances in Shadowpath Trader they may not be satisfied with their own combat abilities, many go into rogue or spell theif to increase their combat prowess, while some go into bard to enhance their social capabilities
Resources: The Shadowpath Traders are a independent group, however they share one common goal: money. If you pay another Shadowpath Trader you can get them to lead you through the Plane of Shadow, purchase rare items or rent items which noone else in the world even knew existed.

SHADOWPATH TRADERS IN THE WORLD
"We've been after this dammed blackmarket for twelve years!!! Everytime we get close they just vanish into thin air."-Captain of the City Guard trying to catch a Shadowpath Market

A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world.
Daily Life: The daily life of a Shadowpath Trader usually starts with them buying new wares usually from adventurers or from a crafter. Then they Shadow Walk to a major city, sell their goods and repeat. Of course that is ideal, the day can be peppered with people trying to cheat the Trader, monsters encountered along the way, buying stolen goods and having the city guard hunt you down for selling illegal goods.
Notables: Notable Shadowpath Traders include Marylin "Coffin" Comanche, who is on the run for kidnapping street children and selling them as slaves. Faurian Moolang is a Kenku Shadowpath Trader dedicated to bringing healing potions to the sick, wherever they are and is currently feeding the hungry, stealing directly from large farms.
Organizations: Shadowpath Traders are an organization all by themselves, however many join other trading guilds that take a more active role in the welfare of its members.

NPC Reaction
NPCs veiw Shadowpath Traders with no particular kindness or malace, some are hesitant to trust them but it's simply good business to mistrust a merchant. What the Trader does with his powers will determin others opinons of him.

SHADOWPATH TRADERS IN THE GAME Shadowpath Traders are charmers, they would rather talk their way away or run away from a fight. If you are in a Hack and Slash game this isn't the class for you.
Adaptation: You can alter the size of the orginization, you cal also change their bonf in the plane of shadow too any plane used for transport.
Encounters: PCs may encounter a Shadowpath Trader who rips them off or a Shadowpath Trader may ask the PCs to retrieve certain items and artifacts.

Sample Encounter
Give an example of how one might encounter a member of this PrC.
EL x: Give the encounter level and description of a sample member of this class and a stat block for him/her.

Name
alignment/Gender/Race/Levels
Init +0, Senses: Listen +, Spot +,
Languages
------------------------------------------------
AC , touch , flat-footed ()
hp ( HD)
Fort +, Ref +, Will +
------------------------------------------------
Speed ft. ( squares)
Melee
Base Atk +, Grp +
Atk Options
Combat Gear
Spells Prepared
Supernatural Abilities
-----------------------------------------------
Abilities Str , Dex , Con , Int , Wis , Cha
SQ
Feats
Skills
Possessions

In short, the class is cool. It's lack of combat abilities makes me hesitant to say it's good, but I can see it working. At this point, I think your big thing to work on is polish. Putting italics around spell names, periods, etc.

Some PEACH for Rauthiss

A cool concept, but one that frightens me due to the way I can say "I'm improvising!" with any weapon I am not proficient with, any DM with a brain worth it's weight in stone will put a stop to that though.
MAN I SOLVED THIS PROBLEM GOOD

The entry requirements are fine, I just don't see the need for Sleight of Hand. Further more why do they only need 6 ranks in craft (which appears to me to be more of what this class is about in concept)
Not any man can swing a chair leg with finesse. I didn't make the craft very intensive since the class doesn't really make anything. Honestly, I needed prerequisites, and craft vaguely fit my theme. >_<

Good skill list, but I would throw in some knowledge skills, Macgyver was a physics major after all.
YOU ARE CORRECT SIR

And there it is, my fears from earlier are suppressed, now lets move on and see the lovely features
Sounds good.

I can get behind this, it makes alot of sense and doesn't seem crazy broken to me.
Sweet

I don't think there are enough feasible armor for the second half of the ability to work, also I think if I wrapped myself in a rug I would take movement penalties as well as the loss of my arms (depending on length of the rug)
Is there a lot? No. Is there some? Yes, so I wanted to have the possibility open. The rug was just a crappy example. Think of it as a bearskin rug. :D

Good ability, I would like it to scale to masterwork eventually.
...I don't need masterwork tools? Or I get a bonus for using improvised tools?

I now see the need for sleight of hand, I would say the sneak attack multiplying is broken but for five levels you cut them off so I can see it being powerful, but allright
My thoughts as well. Keep in mind as well that all improvised weapons only have a crit modifier of x2

Weird, but very cool. My only question is does it fit as a capstone? It doesn't really affect the whole "Improvised weapon" theme
I'm fighting a Werewolf? Let me grab that silverware I stole from the king. etc. etc. The idea is that with this, an improviser can walk into a dungeon with nothing and still survive. Is it worth a capstone? Not sure.

Conclusion: Alot of fun stuff here, my only suggestion is to switch your level 5 and 4 abilities
A solid suggestion. I might go with that.

some response for Doctor Acula. See above.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-18, 10:31 PM

Forever Curious:

Very rouge-based...plus a good Will save.

Well, bard actually but I suppose I can see where you got that from

Hm, free once-per-day teleportation at first level... I'd say it's dippable, but the skill requirements might balance it.

I never thought about balancing for dipping, thanks for bringing that up

I think the "this functions as a bag of holding" line is a little misleading. It clearly doesn't function as a bag of holding. You can probably cut that and it would make just as much sense.

Otherwise, this a fun flavorful and extremely useful ability. I like it.

Allright, I'll take it out

Wow, Shadow Jump at a level where it's actually useful. Approve.

Do you think it would be horribly broken if I let them use their shadow jump as a swift action so that they can shadow skirmish effectively?

That's a very low DC for the amount of time you're putting into it. i'd say either reduce the time or up the DC.

Cunning Appraisal is based around the feat "Appraise Magic Value" from complete adventurer, it is exactly the same but free so I think that may set precedent for the DC and time. However I could see reducing it to one hour

This ability is literally unusable. Shadow Jump as written implies the use of a standard action, and therefore no attacks during that round. Plus I'd think Shadow Jump would be better used fleeing rather than engaging in combat. I just think this ability doesn't belong, frankly.

I only threw it in because I felt it needed SOME combat ability, preposed fix listed above

Heh, this is nifty. I like it.

It was your idea, of course you like it :P

Eh, nothing fancy.

I like it.

This is a rather powerful ability, but not broken. Just makes you a better teleporter, I guess.

Yeah, I felt it was good but not too good

This is fun, but might be granted at too late a level to really matter. Maybe allow allies to gain the benefits of this, or have them get this as a lower level ability.

Hmmmm, I'll move it up earlier and see how that helps

I can't see this being useful at all outside of roleplaying terms, which isn't bad but isn't good either...

I want to see someone use this ability on a REALLY old person

Tee hee, fun feat. Love it.

SO DO I!! Personally I think all skills should have tactical feats based on them.

this COULD be broken alongside an artificer to earn hax gold. I do like it, though.

No comment, thats true

...so, assuming max ranks and a +3 Intelligence modifier, a 10 or higher grants true seeing with no limit. This is VERY good, perhaps too good. Plus there's no duration or number of times allowed per day.

I wasn't sure about the DC, I honestly just picked a random DC

...eh, this doesn't effect PCs at all I don't think. Perhaps give them Suggestion or Charm Person as spell-like abilities. As is, this ability is very weak.

I was going to add that, but then I forgot

Conclusion: I really want to like this class, but I'm not sure whether it's good, broken, or horrible.
That sentence feels like your saying you don't want to go to prom with me because you just want to be friends.

Rauthiss:

I'll handle this quick - there are a LOT of spelling and grammar mistakes here. I sent you a PM where I fixed them all, as well as some wonky wordings. You can just copy paste it into your post, if you'd like to.
Allready done before you posted this up :)

Why would someone need to know about grasslands to get into the class? Also, how does one get to the Plane of Shadow in order to be trained? I think the first one was a joke so I am ignoring it. And they can enter the Plane of Shadow by hopping onto a Shadow Walk of your mentor or have them use a Plane Shift wand/scroll/magic item

Hoo boy, that's one heck of a skill list. Some things seem odd to me - Why does a merchant get climb and tumble, but not intimidate?
Because he needs climb and tumble to traverse difficult terrain but he shouldn't have to intimidate his opponents.

We had a discussion about this - Who can open the chest? Where is it? (extradimensional space?) Perfect Phylactery Lich hiding place? I'd like to see some more on this ability.
I'll make the section bigger I guess... and it works as well as a secret chest spell for a Lich

Can you use your own shadow? If not, this should be specified, like in the shadowdancer. Also, since it is an ability that is like a spell, why is it supernatural, not a Spell-like ability?
Its supernatural because shadow jump is a supernatural ability for shadow dancers. And I'll add the specification

Good lord, that's a while. I'd decrease the time. I based it around the feat Appraise Magical Value, its pretty much a free version of the feat

This has MAJOR PROBLEM. See FC's DELICIOUS FRUIT.
This could probably be done shorter by saying this effect is precision damage.
I think I may be able to fix it if I make shadow jump a swift action, and I copy-pasted from the actual skirmish section

Rauthiss:

...I don't need masterwork tools? Or I get a bonus for using improvised tools?

I just meant they get a masterwork tool level bonus (+2 I think) when using improvised tools

Arbitrarious

2010-07-20, 10:10 AM

Ok, updated Shadow Hand Assassin. Worried it may be a little too much, but a lot of what is in there is to too eliminate the need for straight up casting. PEACHs appreciated.

Speaking of which...

Peachs!

Improviser
To be honest I liked the Covert Array more, but this is another interesting idea. For the first three levels the abilities are flavorful and appropriate, but a little on the underwhelming side. Then we get to "Didn't Expect That", which I wasn't expecting. It's very powerful and maybe usable a little too often. Perhaps make it so that the first time you use an improvised weapon on an enemy in any given encounter (once per enemy per encounter) is an auto crit? That reflects the fact that your opponent wasn't expecting the weapon to be nearly so dangerous. The slight of hand check seems like your enemy is simply losing track of the weapon for your attack. "I've got just the thing" is a fun nifty ability, but I'd junk the GP refilling and just say he can pull out an amount of mundane items whose value doesn't exceed x (based on class level) with the tagline "such items are always scrounged or improvised items with no gp value" to prevent abuse or the odd instance of pulling out 10 items worth 10gp each but needing 500gp to replace them. My last concern, no sneak attack? I would consider giving it to them since it is an entry requirement (even if you limit it to improvised weapons) or dropping it so other skillful classes, Factotum being a perfect fit based on theme, can enter.

You left Covert Array in the "Playing A" line and I would like to see your fluff.

Overall I like it and would like to see it finished.

Shade Touched
Someone likes The Darkness. The class is well executed and the flavor is good. I have only a couple of things for you to consider. Fiend sight, this class is master of supernatural darkness so let them see through magical darkness as well. The dark creature template is nice but I would drop the template and spread the goodies through the levels as class features to avoid making such a clear breakpoint. Lastly shadow illusions are known for being partially real, perhaps you could let the Shade Touched use Shadow Conjuration/Evocation by spending a Channel Shadows use while in shadows/darkness?

Master Theif
Wow. It's been said already, but this is an amazing prestige class for rogues and I think it could represent a new option in class development, the capstone class. Amazing job with a simple but effective class.

More later.

Zaakar

2010-07-21, 11:30 PM

Shade Touched:
I really like it! Note that this:

Plane Shift (1/day, only to and from the Plane of Shadow)
probably doesn't work like you wanted it to, since it doesn't restrict what planes you can shift to from the Plane of Shadow. Thus if you start off in plane X, you can just shift to Plane of Shadows and then to plane Y.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-22, 12:19 AM

Shade Touched:
I really like it! Note that this:

probably doesn't work like you wanted it to, since it doesn't restrict what planes you can shift to from the Plane of Shadow. Thus if you start off in plane X, you can just shift to Plane of Shadows and then to plane Y.

Given that it's 1/day, that should be fine; going from the Prime to Shadow, resting a day, then going somewhere else fits the theme just fine.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-22, 06:59 AM

I'm gonna do some PEACH
Cover Arcanst

Covert Arcanist
Without additional consideration and practice, the covert use of magic in the presence of others is a difficult task. When required, the covert arcanist is adept at concealing evidence of his spellcasting activites. Possessing penchants for pervasive insight, self-sufficency and interpersonal efficacy, the covert arcanist often fills a role in support of a larger cause or entity.
Hit Die: d4.

Looks pretty good, I really like the concept, but you still need an image and a quote.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become an covert arcanist, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (any other four) 1 rank each, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Sense Motive 2 ranks
Feats: Eschew Materials and Guerilla Scout (HoB pg 97).
Spells: Ablility to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.

Solid entry requirments, may be a little much in the skill department for CHA based casters. I like the use of heroes of battle.

CLASS SKILLS
The covert arcanist's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (none), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at each Level: 4 + Int modifier

You misspelled Decipher Script, I fixed it and bolded it for you.

{table=head] Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Spellcasting
1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Descry, Skill Focus (Spellcraft) | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Bonus feat | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
3rd | +2 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Skill Focus (any Knowledge) | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
4th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Bonus feat | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class
5th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Subtle Magic | +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class[/table]

Two good saves and a Cleric's BaB. It works allright.

CLASS FEATURES
All the following are class features of the covert arcanist prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Covert arcanist gain no proficiency with any weapon, armor or shield. Armor check penalties for armor heavier than leather apply to the skills Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble, and double the normal armor check penalty applies to skill checks.
Can they cast in leather armour? Why are you making it even worse at wearing armor than normal casters?

Spellcasting: With each level you gain as a covert arcanist, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other class feature a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a covert arcanist, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Nothing to say, its okay and I'm a poet.

Descry (Ex): At 1st level, the covert arcanist can access knowledge in the same manner as a bard can. This ability functions like the bardic knowledge ability, except that the bonus for the check equals the character's arcane agent level + his Int modifier. If the covert arcanist has another such lore ability from another source (such as bard or loremaster levels), his covert arcanist levels stack with levels of all other classes that grant such an ability for the purpose of Descry checks.

ummm okay, not really much for a covert caster, but it doesnt go AGAINST the concept, moving along

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level, and again at 4th level, the covert arcanist may select any of the following feats as a bonus feat, as long as they meet the prerequisites: Arcane Strike, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Invisible Spell, Mysterious Magic, Silent Spell, Smiting Spell, Somatic Weaponry, Spell Mastery or Still Spell.

Makes sense, you could add Sudden Silent or Sudden Still to the list.

Subtle Magic (Ex): The spells you cast often don’t register to divination magic. If a divination is attempted against one of your spells, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 15 + your caster level. The subtle magic class feature covers only your spells; the magic items you possess still register normally to detect magic and other spells.

Sounds good. I would extend it magic items they make too

Conclusion: For a "Covert Arcanist" you don't get alot of covert abilities, you get more knowledge abilities than you do stealthy abilities, I would advise a retweak of the fluff or a reworink of the crunch because to me they don't work well together

cooperflood

2010-07-22, 11:19 AM

Finally got around to posting the fluff for Master Thief. So unless someone spots a problem I have missed I'm considering this class finished (Assuming ErrantX oks the fluff).

@Arbitrarious: Thanks for the complement, but I can't claim that capstone classes were my idea. Many people have posted similar creations, most notably Wotc.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-22, 06:55 PM

Man, I am so behind.

The Shadow Eater - Demons_eye
I love the quote, that's awesome.

Plural of "spell thief" is "spell thieves", not "spell thief's" - that would be the possessive. Plus the class is call "spellthief".

Anyway, nitpicks done with, intro sounds good.

Becoming a...
The last sentence is a little weird, but I like the image. Generally sounds good.

Prerequisites - This reads as "be a 5th level Rogue" - you need to add something here just to signify that the Shadow Eater requires being special. A particular feat related to the Shadow, Knowledge (The Planes) ranks for information on the Plane of Shadow, a Special requirement related to the shadow - something.

Class Features
Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Looks like the Rogue's list, 6+Int skills, 3/4 BAB, good Ref save - all standard, looks good.

Consume Shadows - First paragraph, last sentence - "you must chose" should be "you must choose". Second paragraph, first sentence - both instances of "chose" should be "choose". Second paragraph, second-to-last sentence, "two at the forth" should be "two at the fourth". Last paragraph, last sentence, "choices" should be "chooses".

Anyway, ignoring grammatical nitpicks, as it reads, you heal as if you'd rested a full night, then you choose whether to digest or control - healing as if you'd rested a full night again if you digest, or else controlling it. Is that the intention? If so, spell it out, because it looks like you meant that it's either healing or control, not healing and either more healing or control.

For control, you really need to explain what it means that the shadow "does not change ever" - if you mean you can't have it point in any direction aside from your initial choice of North, South, East, or West, you should use the standard blurb - "This choice is made upon deciding to control the shadow, and cannot be changed." If it means something else, you have to explain what that is.

And then you need to explain what it is they can do on your turn as a Free action. You only said they can act, but you have to explain that statement (even if it's only "see below" or something). Actually, you need to explain a lot about the Shadows - they have HP, so they are presumably separate creatures, but then they need a statblock, and they don't have one.

Shadow Ability - Not so much a table as a list, is it?

Shadow Rest - Could be a little high; I'm not really sure.

Shadow Memory - Interesting; I think it's probably fair.

Shadow Melding - How do you destroy someone's shadow? Bathe the area in light from all angles?

Shadow Skill - "shadows modifier" should be "shadow's modifier". Of course, you should be talking about the skills of the shadow's original owner, not the shadow - most people's shadows don't have skills.

Shadow Borrowing - Uh... someone can always voluntarily fail a save. And you can always return shadows at will. What's the point of this?

Shadow Studying - I get what's going on here, but I think it's a little unclear. Anyway, the ability itself is cool.

Shadow Transformation - That's a lot of stuff. A bonus to an ability score is especially unusual. I dunno about this.

Sneak Attack - 3/10. Not bad, not great. It's OK.

Shadow Travel - Do you need line of sight, line of effect, what?

Shadow Companion - Weird to get this at 6th level but get one of class level - 3. Plus, since it's only a 10 level class, I think it's probably safe to make it full class level - or HD-3.

Greater Shadow Transformation - Last sentence you have "30 fiit" instead of "30 feet". Anyway, you go from a 20% miss chance always active, to incorporeality that burns an awful lot of actions? Very strange to lose a potent class feature in order to get a new one. I dunno about this. I didn't really know about the last one, either.

Greater Shadow Travel - Nifty.

Become Shadow - First sentence, "ability of consumption" is kind of awkward. Third sentence, "no stacks with" should be "without stacking". Anyway, better to say your movement speed is doubled (though in some cases this is not as good as the +30 ft you had earlier). Anyway, it seems reasonable. Fast Healing 4 at 15th is pretty weak, though.

Playing a...
Sounds fine...

Combat - Wait. You mean to say that the Shadows you control are equivalent to the people they were once attached to? Uhh... that's not balanced, not at all. Not even remotely. That's massive amounts of power.

Advancement - the Advancement section is typically some thoughts on what a member of your class typically chooses to do with the rest of his levels, after completing your class.

Resources - The Shadowcaster class feature "Sustaining Shadows" would be appropriate to add if this is the case...

...in the World
First sentence, "are saw" should be "are seen". Second sentence, "memory's" should be "memories". The last sentence... is just syntactically bizarre. Not really sure how to untangle it.

Otherwise, though, this is fine.

Daily Life - Second sentence, "Others flaunt it, chewing on people's shadows to make a point." Second sentence, "of how they are" is awkward and can probably just be deleted, while "anikn" should be "akin".

Notables - First sentence, "noticeable" should be "notable". Wouldn't hurt to give the king and the shadow eater names, either.

Organizations - First sentence, "normally reclusive lot" should be "normally a reclusive lot". Second sentence, "man factions" should be "main factions", "Night Shadow s" should be "Night Shadows". Third sentence, "aline" should be "align". Fourth sentence, "over sees" should be "oversees". Also, you should specify who is "everyone" in that sentence.

NPC Reaction
I dunno, if I wasn't familiar with what Shadow Eaters can do, I wouldn't really care that much about it...

...in the Game
"peoples" should be "people's". Otherwise, in D&D, Chakras are just locations on the body - I don't think you can really steal those. Otherwise, this seems OK.

Sample Encounter
OK, the card thing kind of came out of nowhere. How many people would be willing to accept him wagering a shadow? Not many would be my guess. You should say that he bets money against other people's shadows. Like, "I'll bet you 500 gp; if I win, I get your shadow." or something.

Conclusion
Massively, unbelievably overpowered, if I'm understanding correctly, but since my understanding of what shadows do is restricted solely to a blurb in the Combat section, I'm not really sure. You need to have actual rules for what shadows can do - but if they actually are copies of someone the Shadow Eater has successfully consumed the shadow of, this is incredibly overpowered. There's the action advantage (1-4 entire sets of actions every turn), there the fact that he effectively has 1-4 of the strongest foes the PCs ever fought at his beck and call, there's the fact that plenty of monsters have features you don't want the player getting his hands on... I mean, what if a Kobold Shadow Eater ate a Sarrukh's shadow?

boomwolf

2010-07-22, 09:27 PM

YES!

thank gods I got the much needed time extension!

At least now I gonna finish my work.

Although I am fearing for my chances of success here. many strong competitors.
Shade-touched, improviser and tiny thief are good examples of classes I would actually love to play. (or use as NPC's in an adventure.)

DragoonWraith

2010-07-22, 10:02 PM

Time extension?

boomwolf

2010-07-23, 08:59 AM

I should not have access to a computer before the end of the contest, but now I do. therefor-a time extension.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-23, 10:00 AM

Aha.

Fate's Blessed - Samb
Boy has this been overdue; you PEACHed the Shadow of a Murder like a month ago...

I really like the picture, and I like the quote even more, heh. Should probably have quote marks around it though.

Anyway, who says "luck favors the lucky"? That sounds a little ridiculous... The saying is "luck favors the bold", which these characters would seem to be.

Becoming a...
Lots of things have Sneak Attack, but still, fair enough.

Prerequisites - Hmm... so has to be a multiclass Cleric or Ardent? Why? I didn't expect to see that. Would have been better to require the Luck Devotion feat. Also, +2d6 Sneak Attack is achievable using Assassin's Stance, just thought I should point that out; I don't think that's really inappropriate for this class, honestly. And this could be entered at level 5 (sneaky-type 3 for +2d6 SA / cleric-or-ardent 1 for the domain or mantle), is that intentional? It's a bit early...

Class Features
Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - d6 is kind of low, but otherwise this looks fine.

Sneak Attack - 3/7 isn't bad at all. Of course, losing ~7 HP over the course of the class hurts a little bit, especially if you're trying to deliver that SA from melee...

Beginner's Luck - You can usually make "Trained Only" checks, you just can't succeed on a DC higher than 10. You should probably say something along the lines of "you can make checks in 'trained only' skills as if you had training, even if you do not" or something. Anyway, I like the bonus.

Easy Luck - You should specify that they can be taken even when not on your turn; free actions usually can't. Seems like a fitting ability, anyway.

Bonus Luck Feat - Appropriate, but that's a lot of feats. Not so sure about that; I'm not very familiar with the specific Luck feats. Anyway, on a pure formatting issue, this should come before Extra Fortune if you're getting it first. Sneak Attack should have been after this, too, since it comes first at 2nd level.

Extra Luck - Should list this in the Class Features in the same order as in the table. That aside, it's a good feature.

Auspicious Strike - I really like the mechanic where it's equal to the number of rerolls he has remaining. That's clever.

Lucky Charm - So, this replenishes rerolls? Or what? I'm a little confused here. Also, the abbreviation of Charisma is Cha, not Chr, at least in D&D.

Fate's Friend - Oooh, that's nice. Cool.

Fortune 500 - OK, first, haha at the name. Do you have to declare that you're doing this before rolling?

Scoundrel's Luck - Hahaha, awesome. I really like this one. Very nice.

Lucky Break - Nice, nice.

Hot Streak - I like the feature, but what if more than one reroll was used last turn? How do you determine whether or not you're allowed to use Hot Streak? Personally I think it should only be one-for-one...

Playing a...
Hehe, I really do like the back and forth nature on this one; it's quite solid.

Combat - I assume this is the combat section, but you're missing the Combat header. Anyway, typo on "vorpal", which you called "vorpoal", but otherwise I like the advice. But I would point out that vorpal would be overpowered with Fortune 500 - you have a 15% chance to start one-hit-killing everything you attack, until you run out of rerolls. That's kind of overpowered. Should be something in there about how since you didn't roll a natural 20 with Fortune 500, and Fortune 500 doesn't duplicate rolls, you can't trigger Vorpal with it.

Advancement - Level 10? The class only has 7 levels... Otherwise, good suggestions.

Resources - I really like this bit. Well written.

...in the World
Amusing quote.

Daily Life - Haha, I like this.

Notables - Hahahaha, awesome.

Organizations - Makes sense.

NPC Reaction
The use of the word "haters" here is really jarring and out of place. Also, typo where you have "lock" instead of "luck". Otherwise, nice.

...in the Game
What makes them good at running away? I'm a little confused on that. Otherwise, I like the idea of a Joker-type with levels in this.

Adaptation - Of course, you don't need an actual deity of luck to have luck be a real thing. There just needs to be actual luck, rather than just superstition.

Encounters - Hehe, I like it.

Conclusion
It's pretty excellent. I really like how you made a clear and obvious difficulty in deciding whether or not to use rerolls; that's really solid. It's a fun class and very well designed. Kudos on that one.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-23, 11:27 AM

So many typos, so many... Hopefully I found and fixed them all.

Tatsel_Ganav

2010-07-24, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tatsel_Ganav
I just saw the PrC you made for the competition, and it looks very cool. I do have a question though. Given that rogues tend to have low HP, doesn't dealing more than their sneak attack damage to them almost every round... that does seem a bit overpowered, to me at least. Why did you choose to have the ability be so damaging?
You could have posted in the Chat thread; I generally prefer that, honestly, since my PM inbox fills rather quickly, especially with back and forth stuff like this. I'll stick to PMs for now, but if you don't mind switching to the Chat thread feel free to just post the response in the Chat thread with a quote (and presumably a quote of what has been said). You certainly don't need to do so if you don't wish to.

Anyway, my reasoning is that it's really limited; not that many things are going to be subject to the damage. Rogues can Sneak Attack a ton of different things - Shadows of Murders can only use Secret Attack against Rogues and the like, at least until they get the capstone. That was why.

Does this convince you, or do you still think it's overpowered? I hadn't thought of the issue of Rogues' HP; that's an interesting point.

~ DW

Just had this conversation over PM. What does anyone else think? The ability is really narrow, but -really- powerful. Most rogue and assassin sorts would be taken out by 1-3 hits enhanced by the Secret Attack thing.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-24, 12:28 PM

Your quotes are a little confusing, I think.

I just saw the PrC you made for the competition, and it looks very cool. I do have a question though. Given that rogues tend to have low HP, doesn't dealing more than their sneak attack damage to them almost every round... that does seem a bit overpowered, to me at least. Why did you choose to have the ability be so damaging?
You could have posted in the Chat thread; I generally prefer that, honestly, since my PM inbox fills rather quickly, especially with back and forth stuff like this. I'll stick to PMs for now, but if you don't mind switching to the Chat thread feel free to just post the response in the Chat thread with a quote (and presumably a quote of what has been said). You certainly don't need to do so if you don't wish to.

Anyway, my reasoning is that it's really limited; not that many things are going to be subject to the damage. Rogues can Sneak Attack a ton of different things - Shadows of Murders can only use Secret Attack against Rogues and the like, at least until they get the capstone. That was why.

Does this convince you, or do you still think it's overpowered? I hadn't thought of the issue of Rogues' HP; that's an interesting point.

~ DW
Anyway...
Mimic - boomwolf
I really like the image, and the quote's perfect, of course.

I'm not sure on the name, though - Mimic already refers to a monster, and in reality "mimic" is a verb, not a noun. Using "Mime" seems like it might be better. Otherwise, looks good so far.

Becoming a...
Somehow, the phrase "pretty much" just seems out of place and unprofessional to me. It can also be safely removed from the sentence without damaging it; I'd probably write it as "He may be a spy, a thief, an assassin; anything that required resembling someone else."

Otherwise... what's so dreaded about this truth? Seems perfectly obvious...

Prerequisites - Nice, I like these. Well done.

Class Features
Skills, HD, BAB, Saves - Pretty high skills; 8+Int skill points is rather rare, especially among PrCs. Not sure about that. Otherwise, this looks fine.

Mimic Mark - "He" in the first sentence is undefined; it's clear enough that you mean the Mimic, but you should replace the first "he" with "the Mimic" here, I think.

In the second paragraph, "for itself" is odd. "in and of itself" seems like the correct phrase. Also, "Making a new mimic mark make you lose..." should be "Making a new Mimic Mark makes you lose" - or perhaps better, "forces you to lose".

How does Mimic Marking yourself work? That's kind of bizarre and seems to defeat the purpose of the class... Otherwise, this looks fine.

Spell Mimic - Losing spellcasting for the day seems really rough; couldn't it just fizzle and waste the slot/action? Also, the bit about using the spell around someone who doesn't see through the disguise is really confusing.

Skill Mimic - Interesting. Getting this much information about a target is going to be really hard though in most games.

Mimic Feat - This seems somewhat problematic. I mean, in some cases the requirement that you have to meet the prerequisites is going to make this useless, and in other cases you might find yourself able to get feats you shouldn't be able to get (maybe). I dunno, it seems a little awkward.

Still don't understand the backlash thing. You could just make it so that if you attempt to use the feat and the target doesn't actually have it, it doesn't work.

Mimic Charged Ability - "Ability" in D&D refers to Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha, so you should use a different word. "Feature" is one I've often used.

Would this include, say, Vestige-granted abilities?

Quick Mimicry - Huh? What action did it usually take? You didn't specify any action that went with it, you just said that it took a round of study, during which you could still use your actions. This is confusing.

Dominative Mimicry - This seems out of place. I mean, you're mimicking him, why should he be influenced by you? The entire theme of the class is gaining your opponents' features, this seems like a non sequitur.

Mimic Combat Capeability [sic] - Should be "Capability". Anyway... this seems dangerous, but I like the idea. Touch AC though? How does that work? I like the attack/AC bonuses, too.

Mimic Any Ability - Ability, again, is the wrong word. Also, at the end of it, you have "scaling scaling ability", which is presumably a typo. Otherwise... this is sort of scary, but the class wouldn't be complete without it.

Reverse Mimicry - This is interesting; I do like this, even though it kind of goes in the same bin as Dominative Mimicry as seeming out of place.

Rapid Mimicry - Same problem as with Quick Mimicry.

True Opposition - Wow, that's cool. I do like this one.

Playing a...
Your capitalization here is... interesting. You capitalize "Stalk, Mimic, Remove, Repeat" when only Stalk should be capitalized, but then you don't capitalize any of the first words of sentences, which should. Anyway, that aside, this looks good.

Combat - OK, this looks fine, until the end of it. What? I don't understand what "just to use all the powerful abilities they own yet capable of using once per day or encounter" means.

Advancement - Go go Chameleon? It seems perfectly fitting (perhaps too much so...).

Resources - Very true, and very difficult to balance as a result.

...in the World
It still says "Class Name in the World", you should fix that.

I'm fairly certain that "preserved" is not the correct word here. I don't know exactly what you were going for ("perceived", maybe?), but "preserved" makes no sense. Anyway, in a world of magic, I don't see why this is so surprising or unbelievable, but whatever.

Daily Life - The wording here is kind of awkward, but it otherwise looks OK.

Notables - "one with not will die" should probably be "one without will die". Also, some capitalization errors in here. Otherwise, sounds good.

Organizations - Makes sense, sounds good.

NPC Reaction
I really doubt that anyone's going to actually go into shock. But again, I really don't think this is so surprising in a world of magic...

...in the Game
Yeah, I'm not sure of that at all. This strikes me as something extremely dangerous to allow into the game.

Adaptation - Yeah, probably.

Encounters - Uh... huh. It would be interesting for a DM to take one of the players aside, and suggest he play a Mimic of himself for a while. That would be pretty cool, actually.

Conclusion
Two WotC classes spring to mind when I see this. First, there's the Chameleon - a rather cool, solid class, which does a lot of this mimicry stuff pretty well.

The other is the Illithid Savant, one of the most ridiculously powerful PrCs ever written.

I think this is a pretty good job at executing this concept. I still think it's too dangerous to actually allow. I'm afraid I don't really have any particular suggestions - I can't think of any particular way to balance it better than you have - but if I were DMing a game and someone wanted to play this... I'd probably tell them to try the Chameleon, instead.

Jota

2010-07-25, 03:58 PM

Posted initial version of the x factor. I'm not wholly convinced that it fits the concept in name (In the Shadows), but in terms of the contest's fluff I don't think it's matching a square peg and a round hole.

zagan

2010-07-26, 09:21 AM

PEACh for the X factor,

Not the first time I've seen a megaman inspired class, let's see how you go about it.

Nice image, the quote is perhaps a little short. and the Fluff is really lacking.

Requirements: Why leap of the heaven just to go with the platform theme of megaman ? A few rank in martial lore and/or some knowledge skill could pe appropriate

Skills: Lot of skill point and skills including lot of knowledge skills. I'm not sure it fit 6 could be enough. No martial lore either. Any reason why ?
Niptick, you lack a coma betwen listen and move silently.

BaB: 3/4 probably enough but you could probably have gone with full.

Saves: see below.

X Factor Score: This should be after the proficiencies. Giving the choice of what mental stat to use is a nice idea and allow for less MAD.
Niptick, sometime your X in X factor is in capital sometimes not, this is also true in the following abilities, you might want to stick to capitale.

Weapon Proficiencies: You might want to put the ability to gain proficiency under a separate ability. The check seem to be really easy but I'm not sure.
Niptick, The wording is a little weird generally it begin by the type of action need, such as: "As a swift action an X factor may attemtp... etc"

Evolutions: Interesting mechanic to gain new maneuvers, I presume that you still can exchange stances ?
Chosing what save is good is interesting and allow to compensate for a poor save from the preceding class nice idea.

Copy Technique: We arrive at the meat of the class.
It's a little confusing so I can ready any maneuvre I know as a free action when I defeat an enemy. (might want to clarify defeat when brough below 0hp I presume)
As a move action I can learn maneuver from a creature but i can only ready them by using the previous ability. Is that it or can I use the standard method for my class too ? What about crusader as they add to the granted maneuvers ?
Typo: Initiator level not just initiator.
The quote in the middle is really weird, you could use that at the start of the class instead.
The fact that you can't use them to qualify is good it prevent abuse.
Why the healing when discarding maneuvers ?
The discipline depending on the type of creature are well chosen but some obvious one seem to be missing, tiger claw for animal for example. Fey could have white raven and outsider devoted spirit.
For subtype when learning devoted spirit maneuver you might want to limit it by forbiding to take a meneuver with a descriptor different from the subtype. Like if I want to copy a maneuver from a creature with the good subtype I can't learn a maneuver with the evil descriptor.
Cold instead of fire for desert wind is nice, could that allow me to learn a meneuver twice once for each descriptor ?
Learning maneuver that martial adept know is good,
You're still missing lot of class, while they might not all be appropriate listing them would be nice, incarnum class would fit well for example, tiger claw for totemist and devoted spirit for incarnate and soulborn. Here's a complete list: link. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class)

Dash: This is at will ? Seem really strong, I know that megaman can do it but still. The fire or cold effect are nice also.

Double Soul: Nice idea, you might want to look up some obscure subtype like living construct that may be abusable. What plane I'm from if I take the extraplanar subtype ?

Punctuated Equilibrium: Might want to include the number of use in the text in addition to the table. This seem really strong particullary on a per encounter basis, you could charge as a standard action, use two swift action ability. The limit of once per round help, but seeing that it can be gained as ECL 8 this seem really good.

Knowledge Spillover: That one seem perfect. Limit enough to be hard to abuse but still usefull. One thing it's instead of learning maneuver or in addition ?

Wall Slide: Okay, the monk ability but better. A non-action ?

Charge Maneuver: Very nice and synergise well with punctuated equilibrium.

Splash Jump: Okay, hum I make a jump check and I can walk on water interesting mechanic.

Maximize Maneuver: charge but better cool.

Wall Jump: Okay, interesting.

Alpha: Nice progression, but could I've used punctuated equilibrium for that ?

Quantum Evolution: Whoa this is getting really good, fitting capstone but might be tto strong.

Fluff: Nice, missing a number of thing yet but it's not the most important part.

Conclussion: Very good work, need a little refining but interesting. The only thing that worry me is that I'm not sure it fit the contest it seem to but nearlly completely combat orriented even if you can learn thing from a foe.
Still very interesting.

ErrantX

2010-07-26, 09:53 AM

Just a couple more days folks, July 28th, so let's get them finished and ready for the voting.

-X

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-26, 10:58 AM

Quick rules question, Errant - are we allowed to completely re-design a class we've posted before? I've been tossing around remakes of the Pelorian Crusader, Cursed One, Greatbow Master and Whirling Bastion in my head for some time now - all classes I've designed before that could use some serious rehauls. Yes? No? Maybe?

ErrantX

2010-07-26, 11:00 AM

Andion Isurand

2010-07-27, 01:42 AM

I was wondering if anyone has a critique or suggestion for my Covert Arcanist PrC so I can consider polishing it prior to the deadline tomorrow night. It's my first GitP contest entry.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-27, 01:05 PM

I was wondering if anyone has a critique or suggestion for my Covert Arcanist PrC so I can consider polishing it prior to the deadline tomorrow night. It's my first GitP contest entry.

Well I'm going to ask the obvious question. What makes it covert? The class doesn't require hide, move silently, or bluff. Guerrilla Scout isn't a good prerequisite feat since you are getting rid of most of it's benefit when you take the class. The only stealthy aspect of the class is the capstone, which is good, but needs more lead in.

Bardic knowledge isn't a bad feature, but without it having something build off it it seems out of place on a stealthy class as opposed to a more scholarly one which doesn't jibe with the capstone. 5 level classes tend to specialize in a theme to a high degree since they are a smaller investment then average. So what is the theme you are going for? Why do I want this class for a stealthy/skillful caster?

Idea: If you want it to be of a more scholarly bent then stealthy how about this.

Potent Knowledge: Your vast knowledge of various creatures allows you to exploit weaknesses in their defenses. When you would otherwise roll a spell penetration check against a creature you may instead substitute an appropriate knowledge check based on the creatures type (see PHB for what creature types fall under what knowledge skills).

ErrantX

2010-07-27, 01:11 PM

The Chopping Block (or will be Disqualified if not dealt with it) List. You have until Midnight Tomorrow night (Central Time).

Rauthiss - Improvisor needs fluff finishing.
Forever Curious - Shade-Touched needs fluff finished as well.
Andion Isurand - Covert Arcanist needs fluff.
dyslexicfaser - This class is unfinished.
Jota - X Factor... I was initially going to DQ this one, but the more I thought on it the more I felt it was unorthodox but fitting. Still, I may have to DQ it if it doesn't get it's in the Game and in the World sections filled in.

-X

DragoonWraith

2010-07-27, 02:50 PM

I'm going to have to apologize to everyone that I haven't PEACHed yet; I don't think I'll be able to. My deepest apologies.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-27, 06:04 PM

If I could get a short list of those still awaiting PEACHes, I could probably throw some down in place of DW.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-27, 06:10 PM

I was going in order, so it's everything after the Mimic.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-27, 06:18 PM

Andion Isurand

2010-07-27, 07:01 PM

I did as soon as it came up

Well I'm going to ask the obvious question. What makes it covert? The class doesn't require hide, move silently, or bluff. Guerrilla Scout isn't a good prerequisite feat since you are getting rid of most of it's benefit when you take the class. The only stealthy aspect of the class is the capstone, which is good, but needs more lead in.

Thanks guys.

Yeah, the text about armor check penalties under proficiencies is just a restatement of the rules, and is a trait shared by many PrCs.

I'm a big fan of Bardic Knack variant from PHB2, but didn't want to list the variant as the class feature. I did what I could in changing the name of the Bardic Knowledge aka Lore ability into a more proactive sounding "Descry"... aimed more towards this PrC being an intelligence operative than a scholar.

Added the Covert Casting ability for a better lead in to the capstone and to reward charisma based casters who meet the prerequisites.

I used Guerrilla Scout as a prerequisite because its better than Alertness which the presence of a familiar grants. I took inspiration from 4 other PrCs and wanted to keep a parallel with the Alertness prerequisite that one of them has.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-27, 07:03 PM

If anyone wants to give me some last minute PEACH I would really appreciate it

EDIT: Do these need to be 100% done by tonight or tomorrow?

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-27, 07:35 PM

I was going in order, so it's everything after the Mimic.

Alright then. Time for some epic PEACHing. Here's hoping one post can contain it all!

Tiny Thief

*snipped fluff*
ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move silently 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Special: Must have been under an effect that reduce size at least once per day during a month
Special: Must have taught the secret of size changing by a Tiny Thief of at least 5th level

Intro fluff is cute. Makes sense and is a nice alternative to covert OPs. Entry requirements seem in order. You need to switch the last Special to "Must have been taught the secret of size changing by a Tiny Thief of at least 5th level."

Class skills are largely in order. I find it odd that you require ranks in Spellcraft but don't give it as a class skill. I'd change that. That or swap out Spellcraft for UMD as an entry requirement. Since you mention lurks earlier, you may also want to throw in the option to swap Spellcraft and UMD for Psicraft and UPD.

HP, BAB, and Saves all look in order.

The sneak attack progression looks a little fast, especially considering how much you gain to insure it working. I'd trip it down to probably 4d6 over the 10 levels instead of the full 5d6.

You need to change "teach" to "taught" in the first sentence on Minimize. The ability itself looks in order. Could cause problems for Tiny Thieves with no ability to either gain reach or move into their enemies' squares without provoking though. Tumble helps with that.

Underfoot Combat makes sense as an ability. Offering up another feat for those who took it earlier is in line, too. I approve.

Precise Strike's wording feels odd, but it shouldn't cause any problems mechanically speaking. It's effectively a feat in and of itself. Right now, the class looks like a pretty good dip for a high dex, low str Swordsage. Or anyone else who dips Swordsage for Shadow Blade, really.

Right Perspectives is really nice. Stopping all miss chances, not just those from concealment is another feat. It does mean you have to be underfoot, but that's rarely a problem.

I love Clinging Technique! This is one of those abilities that I feel should be in the game by default not unlike grappling in general, but requires a feat or two to really use properly. One thing I would consider is changing it such that when you use your immediate action to activate Clinging Technique, that it applies to whomever is moving for the rest of the round in event that they somehow get another move action or simply take a double-move.

Attack from Below is great. Once in place, you have guaranteed sneak attack against anyone not explicitly immune.

Divert attack is odd, but enjoyable. It could get weird in the case that the opponent your riding tries to whack you and instead hurts himself, although that's probably part of the intent here.

Hide in Plain Sight seems a bit late and is really the only stealth based ability save for the size reduction itself.

Strike the Flaw is a simple capstone, rending an enemy's AC to effectively 10+size+deflection. If you have time, I would think about throwing something else here. While quite good as is, it readily mimics Attack from Below in reducing AC. Just a thought.

Outro fluff seems in order. The quote was nice. As I've said before, I generally breeze through the fluff, so I generally don't comment on much of it.

Mindbreak Stalker
Intro fluff is interesting. Makes me think of the Soul Eater anime, so I'm a tad intrigued.

Entry requirements are in order. I would, however, consider substituting Knowledge (The Planes) in the event sanity rules aren't in effect. Similarly, I'd switch the 0 sanity instance to having been hit by a Confusion or Insanity spell or effect. You should probably also require some ability to manifest powers considering the progression below.

Considering the probable entry, I'm surprised that the skills aren't just Knowledge (all). Other than that, they seem fine. The HD looks a bit big, but the saves and BAB are in order.

The ML progression may be a bit light, considering my intuition tells me you'll probably need 2 levels in a rogue-like class to enter, but I'll see once I'm done reviewing the class abilities.

Ravages of the Shattered Mind (Ex)

For psionic focus, as it plays a big part in metapsionic abilities, I would simply remove the random roll. Instead, a penalty to the concentration check may be in order.

For the phobias and obsessions, I would mention that there are in total five chosen (randomly?) from the full list. The slow removal and penalties seem fine, however.

Mindbreak (Su)

I would change it from being full-on mind-affecting to simply requiring that the target have an Int score. After all, all undead, be they lich or zed, are immune to mind-affecting abilities. The damage seems fine. I'm not familiar with how DND handles sanity damage, but I feel as though it won't be much.

Serenity of the Infinite Depths (Ex)

This is simple and seems in order. I'm tempted to say that it should apply to all mind-affecting abilities, though. Just a thought.

Step into Disarray (Ps)

Step into Disarray is simple but kind of underwhelming. I'd say go ahead and add the powers that it mimics to the Mindbreak Stalker's powers known list for free, too.

Alien Sneak (Ex)

The wording on Alien Sneak could be better. I would consider looking to Darkstalker for what it explicitly calls out and use that as a template. From there, I'd then just add the additional bit for magically enhanced vision.

Delusion's Gaze (Su)

Blindsight is pretty intense and also generally covers the same sort of perceptions as true seeing. It would probably be better to have this simply function as Blindsense instead. Not sure what to do for the psionic focus bonus, though.

Blade from a Different Dimension (Su)

The wisdom damage may be a bit much, save for the fact that it is mind-affecting. The overcoming DR and hardness is fine, though. I'd say switch which ability needs to use the focus and which does not, personally.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

It's HiPS for psionic beings. Looks in order, if a tad late.

Fractal Mindscape (Su)

This is basically a free Mindblank two levels early. However, it's not the first class to do such, so I can't really complain.

Psychopathic Phantasmagoria (Su)

The bonus abilities are nice. Free feats could be a cheap way at temporary flight or extra reach. All in all not bad, if a little odd. I would consider making the type change (but not the subtype change) permanent.

The special note is nice for those homebrewed classes. I haven't seen them myself, so I can't really comment on them. Outtro fluff is fluff. See previous comments.

Brief break before I cover the remaining five classes. Hope I can get them all done in time.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-27, 08:52 PM

Shadow Hand Assassin
For sake of time, I'm skipping fluff outright. I apologize.

Entry requirements seem in order. Fairly easy for a straight swordsage to qualify, but a ranger dip would help.

Skills, HD, saves, and BAB all look fine: essentially, they're what I would expect from a Swordsage PrC.

The extra maneuvers known looks a little heavy, but there is a slightly larger gap than usual for stances. I've always found the progressions for ToB PrCs to be odd at best, so take that into consideration. The disciplines look in order.

Assassin's Mark (Ex)

The bonuses for the mark itself are rather underwhelming, as it eats a full-round action to activate. Here's hoping that the class abilities make up for that. Alternatively, consider adding a progression into the class to lower the activation down to either a swift or free action. I'd also probably start it out as a standard action, too. You should probably also declare what sort of perception, if any, is required to mark someone.

Bonus Feat (Ex)

The list looks in order, although it makes for a tempting 1st level dip. I'd join the last two sentences together, as having the DM adjudication by itself implies that I could potentially take something silly like Empower Spell. That or just strike the last sentence altogether.

Sneak Attack :

Makes sense and the progression is well done. First level is still dippable like no other, but I suspect that the rest of the class will warrant more than just that one level.

Opportunistic Advantage (Ex):

This is kind of like a weak version of Adaptive Style, which isn't bad. It could help alleviate the feat tax on Swordsages for that, so I consider it a plus. The end result is giving a Swordsage a slightly weaker version of one of the Warblade's recovery methods. All in all, I like it!

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

Simple class ability. Progression to Improved Uncanny Dodge is nice, though. Not much to say here.

Cloak of Shadows (Su):

Remove the parenthesis after "special hide check," as other bonuses could come into play for said check, and it's best not to imply that they wouldn't here. Other than that, the ability is cute and practical. Clerics and Druids are likely to spot a SHA, but wizards and sorcerers are not. Eh, it does the job. I'm tempted to say remove mention of the wisdom bonus, but I kind of like seeing it there.

Hunter’s Mark (Ex)

Makes sense. A little light, as those skills are pretty easy to use, though.

Step into Darkness (Su)

This is a pretty handy ability. You should mention whether or not attacks and like are possible in this form, however. I'd lean towards "no," and a hide/move silently bonus is also in order.

Shadow Grace (Su)

The bonus to strength-based skills is odd, but I can't really comment on the dex-based skills. It's a large list at a significant bonus, but it does fit with the assassin theme.

Thousand Faces (Su)

Simple ability and very appropriate. Not bad. Not sure what would change, but you may just copypasta the wording from the Druid ability. (Although, this may already be the case.)

Shadow Hand Style (Su)

Shadow Hand Style should mention whether or not it bypasses sneak attack immunities. I feel like you intend it to do so, which does make sense for an assassin. Just figured I'd let you know.

Ambusher (Ex)

Ambusher allows you to finally mark someone in the surprise round without worrying about blowing actions later. The damage bonus is slightly better than just +1d6 SA, but is more limited. Again, not bad.

Maiming Strikes (Ex):

You need to list how long the periodic damage lasts. I would also give the healer the option to just heal normally instead of being forced to blow a healing spell to get ride of potentially only 2 damage/round. I would also add "that ability damage or penalty..." at the end of the last sentence to make it clear that you're dealing an extra 2 strength damage and what not. Just helps it flow a little better when reading it.

Twin Marks (Ex):

Twin Marks is quite nice, as it doubles up on your strikes meaning you have to recover less often. However, there are very few class abilities at this point hat actually require the opponent to be marked. That and it still eats a full-round action to mark someone.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

You need to change what happens if a character already has Improved Uncanny Dodge at this point due to entering this class via something with just Uncanny Dodge, as what you do have there is essentially a copypasta of your text for Uncanny Dodge.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

HiPS is HiPS, so not bad. The extra benefit from Cloak of Deception is cute, though. Am a fan.

Breach Ward (Su)

You need to specify which type of Initiator level check to use as you can have different levels for different disciplines. I'm assuming the chosen one would be Shadow Hand, though. The ability itself is good, though.

Shadow Walker (Su)

Love it! This allows a SHA to use his 'port maneuvers to actually jump across from one building to another without worry.

Mark of Death (Su)

Again, you don't need to mark someone to use this ability. Also, as Death Attack, I am not a fan. I would change it such that your "studying" can include attacks and the like against the subject but only said subject before the actual Shadow Hand Death Attack.

Reap the Soul’s Shadow (Su)

Odd and flavorful for an assassin. Makes sense, but doesn't do much against most targets.

A few other notes: most of your Mark'd abilities are underwhelming, not warranting the full-round action to activate while most of the rest of the class abilities are solid and yet don't need said mark. Also, your table lists Improved Evasion, but the text does not.

I'm skipping the Shadowpath Trader as I believe I saw a full PEACH of it back a few pages. I apologize if this is not the case.

Covert Arcanist

HD, BAB, and saves are all in order. The entry requirements seem a bit light for all of the class skills gained, however. Skill points for level are fine, though.

Casting progression is fine, as it's only five levels long.

Descry is fine and fairly simple. I'm generally a fan of Bardic Lore style abilities. The second sentence says "arcane agent level" instead of "covert arcanist level." Minor typo, so it's an easy fix.

For your bonus feats, the vast majority of them are simply metamagic feats. As such, I would just list all metamagic feats, those that you already have that aren't, and then maybe somethings like skill focus and more rogue-like feats.

Covert Casting (Ex): You should probably make this based off of casting modifier rather than charisma explicitly. The effect itself is rather simple, though.

Subtle Magic (Ex): Another simple, cute, hiding ability. Not much of a capstone, though.

If you have time or simply want to tweak the idea later, I would probably extend the class out to 10 levels using what you already have to start and slowly progress with free still/silent spells and other, more rogue-like abilities.

Knight of Erossus

Entry requirements are easy, but it does require a jank feat to enter.
Class skills, HD, and BAB are all in order. The nonstandard save progressions are odd and don't really warrant their existence.

Weapon Proficiencies:

Change the wording so that Knights who entered with proficiency with shields don't suddenly lose it upon entry into the class. The extra exotic weapon proficiencies more than cover the entry feat and level.

It's Not the Size that Counts:

You should say whether the improvements on the armor check penalties and max dex are specific to armors or not.

Ties that Bind:

Simple. I'm generally not a fan of just skill bonuses, though.

Undercover:

See above. Not much else to add.

Mastery of Knots:

This is an odd alternative to grappling. May be worth it. Not sure.

Supreme Mastery of Knots: Like the above, but more so.

Specialities: This isn't a class ability. This is well into the realm of simply being DM fiat. Generally, when classes have something like this, they at least list a choice of options: you should do the same.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-27, 08:59 PM

I'm skipping the Shadowpath Trader as I believe I saw a full PEACH of it back a few pages. I apologize if this is not the case.

It is, I just like getting more and more opinions

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-27, 09:53 PM

It is, I just like getting more and more opinions

On it.

Entry requirements are fine. Should be "The Planes," not "The Plains," though. HD, BAB, saves, and skills are all fine.

Shadow Walk (Sp): Not much, but seems fine. The CL should probably be equal to HD, though.

Hidden Chest (Sp): You should specify that they can both place and remove items to and from the chest with the same standard action it takes to access it.

Not One to be Cheated (Ex): Oooh. I like this. By itself, it doesn't due terribly much, but there are a lot of feats that focus on Sense Motive.

Shadow Jump (Su):

I would start this ability at a higher movement range, progressing more like a medium range than just out and out doubling.

Cunning Appraisal (Ex): You should mention if this is as Identify, Analyze Dweomer or something else.

Shadow Skirmish (Ex): As skirmish but worse. Unless Shadow Jump drops actions, this is strictly worse than what skirmish could do for you just in and of itself.

Armor Appraisal(Ex): This needs a duration, but is otherwise fine.

Fast Talk (Ex): You should probably do something similar for Bluff. Otherwise, fine.

Trade Routes (Ex): This is basically an extension of the Shadow Walk SLA. Not much in and of itself.

Chronicle(Ex): This ability doesn't really do anything. It helps determine a MacGuffin's age, but that seems situational at best.

Wanderer's Diplomacy(Ex): I don't have the source on this feat, so I can't comment. Listing its location would be nice, even if you can't cite it in full.

Charming Salesman(Ex): This is roughly worth a feat, I believe. Not much of an ability, however. You should probably mention "used" goods for those Shadowpath Traders who make stuff themselves.

True Appraisal (Su): Considering how easy Appraise checks are by this point, you may as well have this be True Seeing at-will.

Likable Personality (Ex): This is not a capstone. The mood improvement is okay, but Charm Person at this point is next to worthless either due to non-Humanoid types or immunity to some form mind-affecting avoidance. For the record, Charm Person can be avoided at 1st level.

Ideas to improve the class: Allow Shadowpath Traders to make magic items not unlike an Ironsoul Forger (Magic of Incarnum) via something. Throw them some more class abilities, maybe SLAs. I should have more ideas but I can't brain at the moment.

dyslexicfaser

2010-07-27, 10:16 PM

Knight of Erossus

Entry requirements are easy, but it does require a jank feat to enter.
Class skills, HD, and BAB are all in order. The nonstandard save progressions are odd and don't really warrant their existence.

Weapon Proficiencies:

Change the wording so that Knights who entered with proficiency with shields don't suddenly lose it upon entry into the class. The extra exotic weapon proficiencies more than cover the entry feat and level.

It's Not the Size that Counts:

You should say whether the improvements on the armor check penalties and max dex are specific to armors or not.

Ties that Bind:

Simple. I'm generally not a fan of just skill bonuses, though.

Undercover:

See above. Not much else to add.

Mastery of Knots:

This is an odd alternative to grappling. May be worth it. Not sure.

Supreme Mastery of Knots: Like the above, but more so.

Specialities: This isn't a class ability. This is well into the realm of simply being DM fiat. Generally, when classes have something like this, they at least list a choice of options: you should do the same.

Thanks for the PEACH, I wasn't expecting it. The specialties are, of course, going to be written. I just haven't done 'em yet.

EDIT: Aaaand they're done.

Merk

2010-07-27, 11:23 PM

Mindbreak Stalker's fluff is finished (though the example character is poorly built, but at least complete) and Ravages no longer causes random psionic focus loss -- the mechanic has been removed entirely, and you simply use your psionic focus like every other psi person.

Thanks for the PEACH, Thrice Dead Cat. I'll give it a thorough read tomorrow morning and see what I can fix.

Rauthiss

2010-07-27, 11:27 PM

I'd still appreciate PEACHes on the improviser.

Arbitrarious

2010-07-28, 03:36 AM

First off, thank you for taking the time to write up a PEACH. It really has helped me see some of the problems in the posted version. Let me address your concerns.

Shadow Hand Assassin
For sake of time, I'm skipping fluff outright. I apologize.

Not a problem.

Entry requirements seem in order. Fairly easy for a straight swordsage to qualify, but a ranger dip would help.

Skills, HD, saves, and BAB all look fine: essentially, they're what I would expect from a Swordsage PrC.

I did try to make entry straight forward, thank you.

The extra maneuvers known looks a little heavy, but there is a slightly larger gap than usual for stances. I've always found the progressions for ToB PrCs to be odd at best, so take that into consideration. The disciplines look in order.

Too many manuvers? As the class almost demands swordsage I just trimmed a few off their progression. What numbers do you feel would be more approriate?

Assassin's Mark (Ex)

The bonuses for the mark itself are rather underwhelming, as it eats a full-round action to activate. Here's hoping that the class abilities make up for that. Alternatively, consider adding a progression into the class to lower the activation down to either a swift or free action. I'd also probably start it out as a standard action, too. You should probably also declare what sort of perception, if any, is required to mark someone.

Thanks for the input! I was wondering what action would be best. I could certainly see dropping to a move or standard as the default action. Perception wise I would surmise sight or it's equivelent.

Bonus Feat (Ex)

The list looks in order, although it makes for a tempting 1st level dip. I'd join the last two sentences together, as having the DM adjudication by itself implies that I could potentially take something silly like Empower Spell. That or just strike the last sentence altogether.

I think I'll simply strike the offending sentance. And yes, it does seem a little too dipable. I'm not sure what, if anything, to do about that though.

Sneak Attack :

Makes sense and the progression is well done. First level is still dippable like no other, but I suspect that the rest of the class will warrant more than just that one level.

Again thank you. I'm not sure if I want to reshuffle class abilites to push the bonus feat up or not. I'm too happy with the sneak attack to want to shift it.

Opportunistic Advantage (Ex):

This is kind of like a weak version of Adaptive Style, which isn't bad. It could help alleviate the feat tax on Swordsages for that, so I consider it a plus. The end result is giving a Swordsage a slightly weaker version of one of the Warblade's recovery methods. All in all, I like it!

That was pretty much the idea so I'm glad it came through.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):

Simple class ability. Progression to Improved Uncanny Dodge is nice, though. Not much to say here.

Indeed, standard is standard.

Cloak of Shadows (Su):

Remove the parenthesis after "special hide check," as other bonuses could come into play for said check, and it's best not to imply that they wouldn't here. Other than that, the ability is cute and practical. Clerics and Druids are likely to spot a SHA, but wizards and sorcerers are not. Eh, it does the job. I'm tempted to say remove mention of the wisdom bonus, but I kind of like seeing it there.

Actually the point of the wording was to prevent all those other bonuses from applying. The reason I made the ability was to give them a clear answer to "I Win" divinations that would simply reveal a hiding assassin. I didn't want to flip to the other side with what would effectively be a guaranteed failure on the casters part. I was shooting for more of contested thing. To that end I think I'll take my own advice and expand upon the Darkstalker feat and simply add divinations to the list of extraordinary sense you can hide from. Casters of divination effects would need to spot vs your hide to "see" you.

Hunter’s Mark (Ex)

Makes sense. A little light, as those skills are pretty easy to use, though.

Yeah I felt that. I think I'll copypasta from favored enemy to beef it up a little.

Step into Darkness (Su)

This is a pretty handy ability. You should mention whether or not attacks and like are possible in this form, however. I'd lean towards "no," and a hide/move silently bonus is also in order.

I was going to let them attack. I don't think it's too much since it is both utility and combat the limited duration means you would have to decide if a fight was worth it. Also bonuses to stealth are covered by Shadow Grace since you would most likely be in a Shadow Hand stance anyway.

Shadow Grace (Su)

The bonus to strength-based skills is odd, but I can't really comment on the dex-based skills. It's a large list at a significant bonus, but it does fit with the assassin theme.

It was supposed to be more of an Acrobatics type ability. Str wise the only skill I was leery of givng the bonus on was swim, but it seemed like a great deal more wording to remove one skill that almost never enters play and in games where it is important a bonus on moving gracefully in water would make sense again. The dex bonus covers the other side of the acrobatics and the stealth bonus. While the number is large it is a compentce bonus which wouldn't stack with items.

Edit: Crap that was the old version of the ability it was supposed to be equals class level.

Thousand Faces (Su)

Simple ability and very appropriate. Not bad. Not sure what would change, but you may just copypasta the wording from the Druid ability. (Although, this may already be the case.)

Yeah added a little fluff and then just threw the SLA at it for simplicty sake.

Shadow Hand Style (Su)

Shadow Hand Style should mention whether or not it bypasses sneak attack immunities. I feel like you intend it to do so, which does make sense for an assassin. Just figured I'd let you know.

Noted and marked for correction.

Ambusher (Ex)

Ambusher allows you to finally mark someone in the surprise round without worrying about blowing actions later. The damage bonus is slightly better than just +1d6 SA, but is more limited. Again, not bad.

Glad you like it.

Maiming Strikes (Ex):

You need to list how long the periodic damage lasts. I would also give the healer the option to just heal normally instead of being forced to blow a healing spell to get ride of potentially only 2 damage/round. I would also add "that ability damage or penalty..." at the end of the last sentence to make it clear that you're dealing an extra 2 strength damage and what not. Just helps it flow a little better when reading it.

It lasts until it is removed like the old style bleed effects. I didn't want it to auto end on any healing as that means it's negated by level 0 spells. I will add that you can choose to simply heal normally and clarify the ability damage wording.

Twin Marks (Ex):

Twin Marks is quite nice, as it doubles up on your strikes meaning you have to recover less often. However, there are very few class abilities at this point hat actually require the opponent to be marked. That and it still eats a full-round action to mark someone.

Again I'm glad you like it. I did notice that I actually left Seeker's Mark out. It was basically locate creature with an unlimited range on the same plane or would tell you what plane they were on. There were supposed to be 5 mark abilities. I'll work on tweaking them.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

You need to change what happens if a character already has Improved Uncanny Dodge at this point due to entering this class via something with just Uncanny Dodge, as what you do have there is essentially a copypasta of your text for Uncanny Dodge.

Yeah! Draft versions for the win! :smalltongue:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

HiPS is HiPS, so not bad. The extra benefit from Cloak of Deception is cute, though. Am a fan.

I was worried it was a little much, but it was competeing with invisibility so what the heck.

Breach Ward (Su)

You need to specify which type of Initiator level check to use as you can have different levels for different disciplines. I'm assuming the chosen one would be Shadow Hand, though. The ability itself is good, though.

I thought initiator levels worked by class, not discipline. I'll have to double check. If it does vary I'll work on a better wording.

Shadow Walker (Su)

Love it! This allows a SHA to use his 'port maneuvers to actually jump across from one building to another without worry.

BAMPH!

Mark of Death (Su)

Again, you don't need to mark someone to use this ability. Also, as Death Attack, I am not a fan. I would change it such that your "studying" can include attacks and the like against the subject but only said subject before the actual Shadow Hand Death Attack.

Mark of Death (Su): The pinnacle of the deadly arts is felling an enemy with a single stroke and a 9th level Shadow Hand Assassin is capable of doing just that. If a Shadow Hand Assassin studies his marked target for 3 rounds and then makes an attack with a Shadow Hand strike that successfully deals damage, the attack has the additional effect of possibly either killing the target or knocking them unconscious (assassin’s choice). To complete the study the Shadow Hand Assassin must spend a standard action observing their victim or engage their victim in combat, he cannot attack other targets while engaging his victim for the purpose of this ability. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the Shadow Hand Assassin’s class level + Dex modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the unconsciousness effect, the victim is dealt subdual damage equal to twice their normal hit points. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal strike. Once the Shadow Hand Assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

It already has those features. I think you missed that in the massive wall of text that is Mark of Death. I'll see if I can improve the flow and come up with a better phrasing for the marked status.

Reap the Soul’s Shadow (Su)

Odd and flavorful for an assassin. Makes sense, but doesn't do much against most targets.

It does seem more an after though ability. I'll see if I can kick it up a bit.

A few other notes: most of your Mark'd abilities are underwhelming, not warranting the full-round action to activate while most of the rest of the class abilities are solid and yet don't need said mark. Also, your table lists Improved Evasion, but the text does not.

I will tweak the marking process and add in the missing ability. I will also see if about making the term for marked creatures more consistent. Evasion will be removed as that was taken out. Again thank you so much for your time and insight. I can't believe how many errors I didn't catch. I'll edit tomorrow.

Thanks!

zagan

2010-07-28, 06:31 AM

Thanks for the Peach Thrice, here my response:

Alright then. Time for some epic PEACHing. Here's hoping one post can contain it all!

Tiny Thief

Intro fluff is cute. Makes sense and is a nice alternative to covert OPs. Entry requirements seem in order. You need to switch the last Special to "Must have been taught the secret of size changing by a Tiny Thief of at least 5th level."

Will do.

Class skills are largely in order. I find it odd that you require ranks in Spellcraft but don't give it as a class skill. I'd change that. That or swap out Spellcraft for UMD as an entry requirement. Since you mention lurks earlier, you may also want to throw in the option to swap Spellcraft and UMD for Psicraft and UPD.

Good idea, probably ask for spellcraft or psicraft and add both to the skill list.

HP, BAB, and Saves all look in order.

The sneak attack progression looks a little fast, especially considering how much you gain to insure it working. I'd trip it down to probably 4d6 over the 10 levels instead of the full 5d6.

I copied the assasin for the sneak attack progression.

You need to change "teach" to "taught" in the first sentence on Minimize. The ability itself looks in order. Could cause problems for Tiny Thieves with no ability to either gain reach or move into their enemies' squares without provoking though. Tumble helps with that.

Will do, underfoot combat grant the ability to don't provoque AOO when entering a square of a larger creature.

Underfoot Combat makes sense as an ability. Offering up another feat for those who took it earlier is in line, too. I approve.

Yeah, I don't like it when a class don't offer anything if you already have a feat or ability.

Precise Strike's wording feels odd, but it shouldn't cause any problems mechanically speaking. It's effectively a feat in and of itself. Right now, the class looks like a pretty good dip for a high dex, low str Swordsage. Or anyone else who dips Swordsage for Shadow Blade, really.

You need three level to gain so if they invest that much for it it's probably okay.

Right Perspectives is really nice. Stopping all miss chances, not just those from concealment is another feat. It does mean you have to be underfoot, but that's rarely a problem.

Yeah, lot of my ability were inspired by feat, but it does make sense.

I love Clinging Technique! This is one of those abilities that I feel should be in the game by default not unlike grappling in general, but requires a feat or two to really use properly. One thing I would consider is changing it such that when you use your immediate action to activate Clinging Technique, that it applies to whomever is moving for the rest of the round in event that they somehow get another move action or simply take a double-move.

I might do that.

Attack from Below is great. Once in place, you have guaranteed sneak attack against anyone not explicitly immune.

Thanks.

Divert attack is odd, but enjoyable. It could get weird in the case that the opponent your riding tries to whack you and instead hurts himself, although that's probably part of the intent here.

Yes, the image is amusing.

Hide in Plain Sight seems a bit late and is really the only stealth based ability save for the size reduction itself.

Same level as assasin.

Strike the Flaw is a simple capstone, rending an enemy's AC to effectively 10+size+deflection. If you have time, I would think about throwing something else here. While quite good as is, it readily mimics Attack from Below in reducing AC. Just a thought.

Not sure on that, you also gain minimze three size category at the same time.

Outro fluff seems in order. The quote was nice. As I've said before, I generally breeze through the fluff, so I generally don't comment on much of it.

Okay, thank you very much for the Peach.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-28, 02:45 PM

I'd still appreciate PEACHes on the improviser.

I'm a little late, but I'll take a look at it. Going to respond first, then probably do your PEACH.

First off, thank you for taking the time to write up a PEACH. It really has helped me see some of the problems in the posted version. Let me address your concerns.

No problem. I kind of feel bad for not doing more work on the PEACHes this past contest as I haven't been doing much else. It's generally fun to do, too.

I did try to make entry straight forward, thank you.

No problem. Although they are straight forward, the entry requirements are a little odd in that they allow for rangers, rogues, and swordsages. The most likely probably being a multiclass between ranger and one of the other two. Even if this was unintended, I like this sort of thing: it allows for some interesting tinkering with how 3.5 works, and I like that.

Too many manuvers? As the class almost demands swordsage I just trimmed a few off their progression. What numbers do you feel would be more approriate?

Your numbers are probably fine. My first reaction was on gut instinct, and as I tend more to playing Warblades and Crusaders, the numbers just seemed a bit much. It's also a bit odd for a rogue/ranger entrant to get that many maneuvers, but that makes sense in the same way for a rogue/ranger to get accelerated casting from entering assassin. As you said you trimmed the number down from just straight Swordsage already, I'd leave them as is.

Thanks for the input! I was wondering what action would be best. I could certainly see dropping to a move or standard as the default action. Perception wise I would surmise sight or it's equivelent.

Sounds good! It's a little bit of a tax when not starting with a surprised round, but if it progresses to lower actions, it'll be fine.

I think I'll simply strike the offending sentance. And yes, it does seem a little too dipable. I'm not sure what, if anything, to do about that though.

Sounds good. The first two levels are definitely worth taking straight out. The 3rd level also throws you a means of foiling divinations and Step Into Darkness. Looking at it, the break points are either 2, 3, 6, or 7 if you don't intend on finishing the class. So although some people may only go in for, say, Oppurtunistic Advantage, I could most finishing it even if they leave after level 3 for something else before returning later.

Again thank you. I'm not sure if I want to reshuffle class abilites to push the bonus feat up or not. I'm too happy with the sneak attack to want to shift it.

I could see pushing the bonus feats back a level or two, as those entering via ranger/X are basically getting a free feat out of it.

Actually the point of the wording was to prevent all those other bonuses from applying. The reason I made the ability was to give them a clear answer to "I Win" divinations that would simply reveal a hiding assassin. I didn't want to flip to the other side with what would effectively be a guaranteed failure on the casters part. I was shooting for more of contested thing. To that end I think I'll take my own advice and expand upon the Darkstalker feat and simply add divinations to the list of extraordinary sense you can hide from. Casters of divination effects would need to spot vs your hide to "see" you.

Ah, okay. In that case, well done.

Yeah I felt that. I think I'll copypasta from favored enemy to beef it up a little.

That doesn't sound like a half bad idea. I look forward to seeing what you do with it.

I was going to let them attack. I don't think it's too much since it is both utility and combat the limited duration means you would have to decide if a fight was worth it. Also bonuses to stealth are covered by Shadow Grace since you would most likely be in a Shadow Hand stance anyway.

Ah, now the lack of hiding bonuses makes sense: this is what I get for doing everything in one straight read-through. I imagine that this will primarily be used for utility, but it is nice to at least offer it as a potential combat form.

It was supposed to be more of an Acrobatics type ability. Str wise the only skill I was leery of givng the bonus on was swim, but it seemed like a great deal more wording to remove one skill that almost never enters play and in games where it is important a bonus on moving gracefully in water would make sense again. The dex bonus covers the other side of the acrobatics and the stealth bonus. While the number is large it is a compentce bonus which wouldn't stack with items.

Edit: Crap that was the old version of the ability it was supposed to be equals class level.

Ah, okay. That makes much more sense than 2x SHA level. You are right on the competence bonus, though. If it is intended to only be SHA level to these skills, it'll be fine. Makes the SHA harder to spot, but hide generally already wins that race anyhow.

Yeah added a little fluff and then just threw the SLA at it for simplicty sake.

Sounds good. Generally, if I see something named that I know exists on another class, I'm inclined to assume it functions as that other ability, which is why I mentioned just copypasta'ing from the Druid. I'm still miffed at how there are at least three separate versions of Mettle.

It lasts until it is removed like the old style bleed effects. I didn't want it to auto end on any healing as that means it's negated by level 0 spells. I will add that you can choose to simply heal normally and clarify the ability damage wording.

Ah, the reasoning works well for not having cure minor stop it. Maybe allow for spells to heal the wound and overflow to then heal HP normally? Just a thought. Even just having the option to ignore the bleeding wound is fine, but I figured I'd mention that.

Again I'm glad you like it. I did notice that I actually left Seeker's Mark out. It was basically locate creature with an unlimited range on the same plane or would tell you what plane they were on. There were supposed to be 5 mark abilities. I'll work on tweaking them.

Just mention something in the chat thread once everything has been added/updated and I'll take another look at it. I'm curious to see how it'll turn out.

Yeah! Draft versions for the win! :smalltongue:

It happens to everyone at some point. I know I've had some copypasta errors in past contests, too.

I was worried it was a little much, but it was competeing with invisibility so what the heck.

It's not bad for breathing new life into a low level maneuver.

I thought initiator levels worked by class, not discipline. I'll have to double check. If it does vary I'll work on a better wording.

They might? I honestly think it's a little of both, but I'm not entirely certain. I'll have to dig through to double check.

It already has those features. I think you missed that in the massive wall of text that is Mark of Death. I'll see if I can improve the flow and come up with a better phrasing for the marked status.

Oh, silly me. Yeah, I did miss that. My bad.

It does seem more an after though ability. I'll see if I can kick it up a bit.

Sounds like a plan. Having abilities to prevent resurrection is definitely capstone worthy. The problem is that most adventurer types probably less than concerned about such. I mean, if I killed you once, I could probably do it again, right?:smallbiggrin:

I will tweak the marking process and add in the missing ability. I will also see if about making the term for marked creatures more consistent. Evasion will be removed as that was taken out. Again thank you so much for your time and insight. I can't believe how many errors I didn't catch. I'll edit tomorrow.

Thanks!

I look forward to seeing the end product. The errors don't matter till the final draft, anyhow (or until the contest ends, but that's just for the contest. I mean, both DragoonWraith and Djinn are still adding material to their binder PrCs from previous contests).

Thanks for the Peach Thrice, here my response:

No problem. I'm happy to help.

I copied the assasin for the sneak attack progression.

I'll be damned, so you did. Y'know, I never actually noticed that the assassin had the same progression.

Will do, underfoot combat grant the ability to don't provoque AOO when entering a square of a larger creature.

Yeah, I don't like it when a class don't offer anything if you already have a feat or ability.

Same here. WotC got better about that in some of the later books. I know that the Ashworm Dragoon gains three different feats over ten levels, but instead of getting different feats if you already had them, you instead gain something extra out of those feats. Admittedly, not all of them are terribly amazing, but at least one of them was worth it. It is another option to consider if you intend to come back to the Tiny Thief post-contest.

You need three level to gain so if they invest that much for it it's probably okay.

True, true. It does let you add more dex to damage options, but those tend to be significant investments themselves, so that's fine.

Yeah, lot of my ability were inspired by feat, but it does make sense.

Hey, nothing wrong with that! I mean, there's the Force Missile Mage and that sucker's based off of a first level spell. You've taken an interesting turn with Underfoot Combat, so I applaud you.

I might do that.

Like I said, it seems like a waste of an immediate action to hold on for the first 30 ft but not the second 30 ft when an enemy double moves. Or the fact that a Tiny Thief could hold on for 120 ft if the enemy was running but not the 60 ft in the double move.

Thanks.

Hey, it's a nice ability! Makes sudden strike more practical, too. I mean, if you entered the class as a small character, you won't be able to sneak attack via flanking once you make yourself tiny, anyhow, so it's a much needed ability.

Yes, the image is amusing.

Indeed it is. May make the monster think twice before power attacking your tiny butt again, too!

Same level as assasin.

I really need to stop thinking about Shadowdancer when it comes to HiPS. Ignore my previous comment, then. :smallredface:

Not sure on that, you also gain minimze three size category at the same time.

The third size on minimize is also nice. I just found the touch attacks thing to be a bit of overkill at this point as you would already have some means of negating an enemy's AC is all.

Okay, thank you very much for the Peach.

You're welcome. If you've made any significant revisions, either mention it here or PM me if you want me to take another look at it! I'll be happy to check it over again.

ErrantX

2010-07-28, 02:55 PM

Just reminding people that were on my cut-list above, if you're not done by midnight tonight I am disqualifying you from this contest. I apologize for hurt feelings, but thems the rules here.

After the contest closes, expect the voting thread either late tonight or early tomorrow, depending on when I get a free moment.

-X

Jota

2010-07-28, 03:29 PM

I notice a disregard of NPCs. Is this a precedent sent by prior contests?

ErrantX

2010-07-28, 03:36 PM

I notice a disregard of NPCs. Is this a precedent sent by prior contests?

People complained about it alot. Extensively. I have since dropped it as a requirement but continue to include it as optional.

-X

Doctor Acula

2010-07-28, 03:51 PM

Its optional! :D I like this

ErrantX

2010-07-28, 03:53 PM

Its optional! :D I like this

Just the example character, but the rest of the fluff is mandatory. I'm not asking for a novel's worth of fluff, but I am at least asking for some mild effort in that department.

-X

Arbitrarious

2010-07-28, 05:10 PM

Ok, I think I got it all. But if you would be willing to read through it once more Thrice I would greatly appreciate it.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-28, 05:44 PM

Reading through Shadow Hand Assassin again. PEACH below.

Ok, I think I got it all. But if you would be willing to read through it once more Thrice I would greatly appreciate it.

Updated Assassin's Mark is nice. It would probably be better to say "Any class that has the Favored Enemy class feature stacks with the Shadow Hand Assassin's levels to determine its bonus. Those, a Ranger 6/Swordsage 1/Shadow Hand Assassin 2 would gain a +4 bonus from against someone effected by the Shadow Hand Assassin's Assassin's Mark."

Mentioning the feats on Cloak of Shadows is nice. May cause someone to actually consider taking them outside of more pre-reqs or if they really fear divination.

Hunter's Mark should probably also mention that Favored Enemy granting levels stack with it. Otherwise, it's cool.

Seeker's Mark needs a use limit, even if it's only "at will." Your wording on the initiator level check could be better. Probably something like "If the target is under an effect that would block detection by a divination, the Shadow Hand Assassin may make an initiator level check opposed by a caster level check of whatever ability is preventing detection. Success means that the Shadow Hand Assassin detects the mark as normal; failure indicates that the protective magics block his search." You should also probably mention whether retries are allowed or not, too.

For Shadow Hand Style, in the last sentence "our' should be "are." Otherwise fine. I approve of the addition to bypassing immunity.

No new comments for Maiming Strike.

One thing I forgot to mention on the (Improved) Uncanny Dodge: levels that grant the former generally stack with PrCs that grant (I)UD, too. Figured I'd mention that. Otherwise, fine.

For Breach Ward, you should also mention the possibility for retries or not. The standard is usually "wait for 24 hours to pass before you can retry."

You should state if Mark of Death requires any actions or not to maintain and whether or not a SHA can still attack the subject during the studying or not.

The negative level on Reap the Soul's Shadow is powerful, but is: A) Limited to Shadow Hand strikes, and B) A capstone. As such, it's a nice addition and motivation to and for shadow hand strikes. All in all, I approve of that addition.

EDIT: While I'm at it, I'll comment on the Specialties for the Knight of Erossus.

Slap the Wrist is fun and cute. You should mention if the movement must be in a straight line or not, because it looks like if a KoE manages to move the weapon 10 ft, he could have it fly up and then just land back on his now disarmed opponent dealing him damage. You should also mention if you can both whack someone and have the weapon bury itself in the ground or not. The burying effect itself is rather interesting. I like it.

For Unerotic Asphyxiation, you should mention what happens to people with Con - and Con <12, as both have at most a +0 modifier. You also need to edit the stuffs in parentheses on the movement, as it looks odd. My guess is to intend to allow the target to still move while being choked, but only if still within 15 ft. of the KoE. That or if they move more than 15 ft. away from the KoE, then it just automatically breaks the ability. In the case of the later, that really makes this ability moot. For the former, I would force the target to beat the previous grapple check to move at all, but if they succeed, they do not automatically break the Asphyxiation itself.

Love the Lash is a limited Stunning Fist. I imagine Cha will be something of a dump stat, but basing this off Str would be far too much. As such, it'll be fine with KoE with Cha and those without it will skip this.

You need to say whether or not you round up or down for Masomastery. You may also want to look to the Crusader (Tome of Battle) for their delayed damage pool and similar retributive damage ability.

Bind the Mighty gives a reason to use Use Rope. Not bad. Also meshes well with the other class abilities.

Bind the Soul is also nice for those normally immune. I would also allow it to work on people benefiting from Freedom of Movement-type abilities, too.

The number of options feels a little light to me, but that may just be me.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-28, 05:55 PM

Just the example character, but the rest of the fluff is mandatory. I'm not asking for a novel's worth of fluff, but I am at least asking for some mild effort in that department.

-X

I know, but I did all the other fluff already :)

Also: Does anyone have a better idea for my capstone? I thought it was good but some of the PEACH I've gotten says otherwise

Arbitrarious

2010-07-28, 06:25 PM

Shadow Dominion: At 10th level a Shadow Path Trader can bring a little piece of home with him. By expending a use of his Shadow Walk ability he can infuse an area with the essence of the plane of shadow. The terrain within 100ft of the Shadowpath Trader becomes dark and foreboding, gaining the planar traits of the plane of shadow (light is minimized, etc). The area becomes difficult terrain for anyone who doesn't possess the Shadow Jump or similar class feature. While in the area of their Shadow Dominion a Shadow Path trader may freely use their Shadow Jump ability without consuming distance. If they jump out of their dominion the distance used is calculated from the edge of their dominion.

Or just Shadow Jump Pounce...

Doctor Acula

2010-07-28, 06:44 PM

Thats really cool

Rauthiss

2010-07-28, 08:26 PM

Merk

2010-07-28, 11:06 PM

Final changes to Mindbreak Stalker made:

- Step into Disarray grants the psi-likes as powers known for free.
- Delusion's gaze gives blindsense, not blindsight.
- Arcane adaptation uses Knowledge (the planes)
- Non-sanity adaptation allows confusion/insanity to substitute for sanity damage requirement (but being reduced to 0 wisdom will also do the trick).

Andion Isurand

2010-07-28, 11:14 PM

Covert Arcanist

Added a few more fluff lines
expanded requirements
swapped class features between 3rd and 5th level
scaled the Subtle Magic feature with level
modified the Covert Casting capstone in a way that benefits a character multiclassed as a Ninja... though 4 levels in the PrC will still benefit those who are not.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-29, 01:07 AM

And holy last minute update, Batman! Updated Secret Attack, making it more "skillful", added some of the promised fluff on Extraordinary abilities, made some actual Notables, and re-did the sample encounter.

Bonus points who gets the reference there.

Doctor Acula

2010-07-29, 07:30 AM

Is the voting thread up yet?

ErrantX

2010-07-29, 08:41 AM

Alright, voting thread is up!

RIGHT HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162165)

Get voting!

-X

ErrantX

2010-08-09, 01:10 PM

New contest is up:

PrC Contest XXI: It's Only Natural (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163610)

Contest ends Sept 6th, voting Sept 16th.

Questions, comments, offers of money, spit 'em here!

-X

Hyooz

2010-08-09, 01:11 PM

Congrats, again, DW.

Forever Curious

2010-08-09, 01:20 PM

Are oozes considered natural or magical in nature?

ErrantX

2010-08-09, 01:21 PM

Are oozes considered natural or magical in nature?

I'd consider them magical, they've got a demonlord in the Abyss, afterall.

-X

Forever Curious

2010-08-09, 01:24 PM

I'd consider them magical, they've got a demonlord in the Abyss, afterall.

-X

...hm...there goes one idea.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-09, 01:58 PM

I think I'll do a binder PrC that grants access to vestiges that are basically avatars of different parts of the environment.

Edit: Nevermind, different idea.

Doctor Acula

2010-08-09, 02:11 PM

Do magical beasts count as "Natural" I am considering a totemist prc

DaTedinator

2010-08-09, 04:35 PM

If it's covered by Knowledge (Nature), I would assume it counts as natural.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-09, 04:44 PM

Oooh, I may actually have an idea down for this contest. Current idea is a nature-bound sorcerer something, just something. Either I've got a Beguiler-only shamany prestige class, a barbarian that takes on the aspects of wild beasts in enraged or the previously mentioned sorcerer.

Spate

2010-08-09, 05:17 PM

I'm going to be writting a list of plant themed soulmelds for my totemist PrC. Should be fun! :smallbiggrin:

Demons_eye

2010-08-09, 06:59 PM

Well that was fun, if I can come up with an idea I will definealty enter again!

I think I'll do a binder PrC that grants access to vestiges that are basically avatars of different parts of the environment.

Edit: Nevermind, different idea.

You don;t know how bad I wanted this to be my idea.

Doctor Acula

2010-08-09, 08:30 PM

Hmmm then I'll probably do horizon walker totemist, or maybe something with psionics

Owrtho

2010-08-09, 08:40 PM

So, could the class's link to nature be that it destroys it (either by just being there, as a mission, or through taking energy from it in a destructive fashion)?

Owrtho

Fable Wright

2010-08-09, 09:16 PM

...I might make a class; haven't done this too much. It would be along the lines of a druid who creates creatures to inhabit the wild. Something along the lines of getting/enhancing an ooze-like companion, who gains the ability to 'evolve' traits over time, and other things, like applying templates to summoned creatures...

ErrantX

2010-08-09, 09:17 PM

Do magical beasts count as "Natural" I am considering a totemist prc

If it's covered by Knowledge (Nature), I would assume it counts as natural.

DaTedinator said it pretty well, magical beasts aren't covered. You could do a totemist (who normally does magical beasts anyway) that does natural creatures instead?

-X

ErrantX

2010-08-09, 09:18 PM

So, could the class's link to nature be that it destroys it (either by just being there, as a mission, or through taking energy from it in a destructive fashion)?

Owrtho

That's one way to go with it, so long as it is directly involving and relating to the natural world, then good to me.

-X

FlamingKobold

2010-08-09, 09:39 PM

So would a class that released unnatural traits into the natural world count? Like, a creature that is antithetical to the natural order?

Fable Wright

2010-08-09, 09:42 PM

Wait, I was going to do that! :smallfrown:
('evolving' random animals; suddenly, there is a new breed of wolves that sport 4 tentacles, and things like that.)

Rauthiss

2010-08-09, 10:06 PM

I'm going for a warlock druid that isn't fae themed! (:o)

Owrtho

2010-08-09, 10:12 PM

I'm thinking of making a PRC that could be described as "They say you can take the man out of the city, but you can't take the city out of the man. In the ____'s case you can't do either." In short the class would, by its mere presence convert any area into city (accelerated when using abilities).
Not sure what class to base it off of though (I thought perhaps rouge, but I'm not sure). Would also have certain abilities that only function in urban areas.

Owrtho

FlamingKobold

2010-08-09, 10:14 PM

Don't worry, that's not what my plan was. I'm thinking of a character that uses shadowstuff to alter the environment around them, and gains benefits (probably from the aforementioned binding) for the environment that they are in.

Fable Wright

2010-08-09, 10:16 PM

Ok, that's good, then. I was going for a group of people who go and evolve the creatures in the wild to keep civilization at bay. (Mutant tentacles wolves FTW! :smallbiggrin:)

DaTedinator

2010-08-09, 10:17 PM

Alright, I got the basics up. I'm feeling a bit iffy about whether it fits for the Nature theme; if not, just say the word, and I'll take it down. Though if it helps, I can make it much more focused on animals and elementals instead of a big variety of creature types.

ErrantX

2010-08-09, 10:55 PM

So would a class that released unnatural traits into the natural world count? Like, a creature that is antithetical to the natural order?

So long as it spawned from the natural world initially, that's fine.

unosarta

2010-08-10, 12:19 AM

Owrtho

2010-08-10, 01:29 AM

Forever Curious

2010-08-10, 02:03 AM

Child of Petriel finished and posted. I would really appreciate a PEACH, it's been a while since I have posted a homebrew on this forum, getting rusty. :smallsmile:

Edit: Oh, and sorry for all of the campaign specific fluff and stuff. I made this for my WIP campaign setting (Well, it's pretty much done, I just have to upload the maps.) As soon as I have, I would be perfectly happy to link it in the class post.

YOU CAN WILDSHAPE INTO THE TARRASQUE! (forgot about the HD limit, nevermind :smallredface:)

...yeah, just at a first glance this class is utterly broken. A basic Druid 20 can use Wildshape and be amazing. This class completely unhinges the limitations that make Wildshape less than broken with practically no sacrifice to get in.

I would love to give you a full critique, but I think the above speaks for itself.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-10, 02:22 AM

Nature's Betrayer is up in very preliminary stages. Any comments on what's up so far would be appreciated. I normally post more complete classes, but it's 2:30 am, I'm tired and I don't want to lose all of my work

unosarta

2010-08-10, 07:34 AM

YOU CAN WILDSHAPE INTO THE TARRASQUE! (forgot about the HD limit, nevermind :smallredface:)

Yeah, as you mentioned, the HD doesn't allow that.

...yeah, just at a first glance this class is utterly broken. A basic Druid 20 can use Wildshape and be amazing. This class completely unhinges the limitations that make Wildshape less than broken with practically no sacrifice to get in.
What would you say would make it better? Maybe a restriction on the Magical Beast portion of the Wildshaping (Such as half (druid+CoP levels) instead of full)? Lower casting?

Also, what would be a better entry requirement? I was kind of stuck on those.

I would love to give you a full critique, but I think the above speaks for itself.

That's OK. The above should be helpful enough. :smallsmile:

Edit: OK, so, now the Child of Petriel can only Wildshape into magical beasts with HD equal to half their level. Do you still think I should remove supernatural abilities? And no more colossal animals or magical beasts. And no casting, instead of 7/10.

Also, Ferality added in, just to spice things up. :smallsmile:
I still feel like I should be adding in something on the requirements, but I just can't figure what.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 11:16 AM

I'll throw PEACHes around once I've gotten some sleep, but one thing that caught my eye is that the Wilderness Incarnate randomly gives +1 to truenaming at 8th level instead of meldshaping. I'm assuming this is an error.

Ajadea

2010-08-10, 11:23 AM

First time entering the contest, with a very, very, movement-focused PrC, and enough class features that I wrapped them up in a spoiler-tag. Does it have too many unhelpful class features? Help :smalleek:!

Demons_eye

2010-08-10, 11:36 AM

Ajadea

2010-08-10, 12:12 PM

And now it's a skirmisher! Does that help?

ErrantX

2010-08-10, 12:20 PM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 06:14 PM

Urban wilderness city stuff is fine, so long as it pertains to the natural world. Keep in mind that humanoids are natural beings, and thus the societies they build would be considered logical extensions of that fact in regards to your ideas.

-X

This... this feels like cheating!:smalltongue: Kidding aside, it's time for everyone's favorite fruit!

Revised Master of Many Forms

Entry requirements look in order. You should drop the "should" from the last sentence on the special requirement. It looks like you're going to add feats to the list, which is a good idea, but I can't really comment on it right now. It's odd that meldshaping can get you in this PrC, but I'm curious to see what you're going to do with that.

Skills, BAB, and saves are all in order.

It's odd that improved shapeshift is based off of total character level, which could lead to dipping, but we'll see. I'll come back to this as I get to them, but you may have similar issues to the Binder class in that you don't get enough over the course of your levels.

Adding moar shapeshift forms seems like a good idea. Again, will comment as I get to it.

Shifter's Speech looks in order.

The subtypes look in order. I'm tempted to replace "aquatic" with "amphibious" to help prevent wasting uses on having to switch from being able to breath and not.

Er, strike that bit about amphibious, as I see you gave that to the Water subtype. Fire and Cold look a little weak to me, but I've always found elemental immunities/resistances easy to grab. Air looks pretty good. Perfect maneuverability can be a pain to grab. Earth is great for a skirmisher and allows for more burrowing than the usual choices do: I approve.

Alter size is nice, but it may hurt to have it eat an alteration.

Your change to A Thousand Faces looks pretty sweet as it allows a MoMF to retain general humanoid appearance and still have some of their tricks open to them. Nice for some social situations.

Evershifting Form looks pretty standard. I personally view changing (Su) to (Ex) as being relatively mediocre as I despise AMFs in general, but that doesn't mean it should not be there. Straight up immunity to Transmutations is pretty cool, but it feels a little underwhelming as a capstone to me. I was honestly expecting something that would allow more alterations or the like.

Looks like the meat of the class is still a WIP, so I'll have to get back to you on those.

As for fluff: you're a bear or at least you play one on TV. Yeah, I can be that lazy when it comes to fluff. I apologize.

Child of Petriel

Fluff is tied to a campaign setting. It's odd that CoPs are very against cities and the like yet still have good relations with most people.

Entry requirements basically boil down to "Be a 6th level druid/wildshape ranger." You should add more to that.

BAB, saves, HD, and skill points all look in order. The skill list seems a little small, however.

Child of Nature should probably just be an (Ex) ability. Usually contest magical effects that are always on are (Su) rather than (Sp), but if it's going to be on in an AMF, you may as well just make it (Ex).

Ferality is borked. Having a class feature turn you into an NPC is NOT a good thing.

Nature's Conversion is underwhelming as your combat forms are going to be wildshapes, not you with claws. As most shapes have these sorts of things normally, they're redundant.

Nature's Perfection needs some wording cleared with it. "Animal" and "magical beast" are types, not subtypes.

All in all, it's a pretty bad PrC as it doesn't really do you much. You're a nerfed druid with limited wildshapes who randomly can become an NPC for using your primary class feature too much. This is bad design.

Yes, making prestige classes for druids is difficult in that you don't want them to be too powerful. I'm certainly not recommending you go the Planar Shepherd route of simply being druid+, but going druid- simply means no one will ever really consider the prestige class.

Nature's Betrayer

I'll hold off on your PEACH until there's more crunch up. I'm curious as to what this Avatar level bit is, though.

Wilderness Incarnate

It's odd that you have to be able to bind soulmelds to so many different chakras, but other than that, entry requirements look fine.

You're not done on the skills or HD, but the BAB looks low to me. Yeah, I know Incarnates are poor BAB, too, but I still can't shake the idea that this is a Totemist PrC. Saves look fine, though.

New soulmelds are always appreciated, but I'll wait till their up to PEACH (obviously).

Nature's Glory is a straight up improvement over the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat/class feature. It's good, perhaps too good.

Evolution is pretty powerful as you've essentially always have access to the entire list of terrain soulmelds. That's pretty strong, as I just need to have one terrain soulmeld up to use it. You need to detail what happens to binds, though.

Rapid Evolution has some of the same issues as above, but now you also get to do something important!

The class doesn't give you access to new binds, which is troubling. You should fix that.

Wildrunner

Entry requirements seem fairly easy for a 7th level druid, ranger, or scout. Druids probably won' bother, but they have the option.

BAB, skills, and HD all look in order. Saves are fine except that your will save at 10th level is listed as "3x" rather than "+3."

Wild Empathy is meh, but not bad to have.

Climb Like An Ape is cute, but comes into play around the time that flying becomes more and more prevalent. Still, having another movement mode is never a bad thing.

Owl's Vision is underwhelming. Low-light vision is nice, but there are several options for darkvision by this point. Your multipliers are not the usual standard. Normally, x2 goes to x3 which goes to x4 and so on. I'm kind of surprised that this doesn't give a bonus on spot or search checks.

Skirmish is always a nice thing to have. Your text at 9th level is off, however, and it is the same as the previous entry in the table.

Having the Fast Movement be insight-based helps with stacking, but I've never been a terribly big fan of it in general.

Hold Breath is really kind of... odd. Giving full on water breathing wouldn't be a bad thing, but it doesn't seem to do much for the class in general. It's just sort of there.

Wild Step is nice in that it bypasses all difficult terrain. So, if you're on the ground, it'll be pretty useful.

Swim With the Fishes is, like Hold Breath, just sort of there.

For Animal Speaker, you should detail by what means. Simply copypastaing text from Tongue of Sun and Moon and mentioning Speak with Animals will suffice. Again, there seems to be no real focus to the class at this point.

Enduring Journey is nice as it helps avoid some standard debuffs. It's fairly easy to grab immunity to fatigue or exhaustion before grabbing something else that makes you immune to the other, too.

Fly with the Birds is nice simply for being a free method of flying. Typically, the jump bonus for having some form of flight, if listed, is +10 instead of +8. However, this, too, is just sort of there.

Beastspeaker should use references like Animal Speaker.

Tunnel with the Vermin: Burrowing is generally on par with flying. You should mention the Escape Artist DC for same-sized creatures and also clean up the wording a bit on the collapse of the tunnel.

Verminspeaker: see Beastspeaker.

Walk with the Spirits is nice to have, but its caster level will be pitifully low.

Wildspeech: See other speakers.

Overall, the class lacks focus. Yeah, it's about getting out into the natural world but none of the class abilities really work with each other. Instead, you gain basically all movement types ever, can move slightly faster, have some skirmish, and can speak with everything from fluffy the bunny to Jorlex, Eater of Worlds.

unosarta

2010-08-10, 06:35 PM

Child of Petriel

Fluff is tied to a campaign setting. It's odd that CoPs are very against cities and the like yet still have good relations with most people.

Entry requirements basically boil down to "Be a 6th level druid/wildshape ranger." You should add more to that.

BAB, saves, HD, and skill points all look in order. The skill list seems a little small, however.

Child of Nature should probably just be an (Ex) ability. Usually contest magical effects that are always on are (Su) rather than (Sp), but if it's going to be on in an AMF, you may as well just make it (Ex).

Ferality is borked. Having a class feature turn you into an NPC is NOT a good thing.

Nature's Conversion is underwhelming as your combat forms are going to be wildshapes, not you with claws. As most shapes have these sorts of things normally, they're redundant.

Nature's Perfection needs some wording cleared with it. "Animal" and "magical beast" are types, not subtypes.

All in all, it's a pretty bad PrC as it doesn't really do you much. You're a nerfed druid with limited wildshapes who randomly can become an NPC for using your primary class feature too much. This is bad design.

Yes, making prestige classes for druids is difficult in that you don't want them to be too powerful. I'm certainly not recommending you go the Planar Shepherd route of simply being druid+, but going druid- simply means no one will ever really consider the prestige class.

Fluff is tied to a campaign setting. It's odd that CoPs are very against cities and the like yet still have good relations with most people.
Sorry about that, but I mean, it is not like it is that hard to change the fluff. I guess I could change that requirement, but what would I add in, as a replacement? I just wanted to add a prerequisite that would limit the users of the class more.

Entry requirements basically boil down to "Be a 6th level druid/wildshape ranger." You should add more to that.

What would you suggest? That was one of the hardest parts, considering there are not that many feats or abilities that I could add that fit the feel very well.

BAB, saves, HD, and skill points all look in order. The skill list seems a little small, however.

But then again, there are not all that many skills that really fit the feel of the class.

Child of Nature should probably just be an (Ex) ability. Usually contest magical effects that are always on are (Su) rather than (Sp), but if it's going to be on in an AMF, you may as well just make it (Ex).
OK. Will be changed.

Ferality is borked. Having a class feature turn you into an NPC is NOT a good thing.
It is that, or make the character able to control his, well, pretty strong, crazily feral character. I guess I could simply say that the character must attack all living creatures within a certain distance every round. I just wanted to keep a limiting factor on the Ability to shapeshift into Magical Beasts with supernatural abilities.

Nature's Conversion is underwhelming as your combat forms are going to be wildshapes, not you with claws. As most shapes have these sorts of things normally, they're redundant.

But, when combined with the effect of Ferality, it makes it so that the character does not necessarily have to spend a lot of time in Wildshape, and also conveys the feeling that the character is slowly turning into a beast. Do you have any suggestions for increasing the power?

Nature's Perfection needs some wording cleared with it. "Animal" and "magical beast" are types, not subtypes.

OK. I will do that.

All in all, it's a pretty bad PrC as it doesn't really do you much. You're a nerfed druid with limited wildshapes who randomly can become an NPC for using your primary class feature too much. This is bad design.

Hm. I guess I can see your point however: Limited Wildshape? In what way? You gain a use at every level, and the normal progression of hours and HD for animals, and the normal progression of hours, and half HD for Magical Animals, AND you get to use their Supernatural Abilities.

The Check for Ferality isn't that bad, especially at high levels, where you can stay in the same shape for pretty much the entire day, and only have to roll once, with a DC of 1, that cannot be failed on a roll of 1.

If you could explain a little bit more (I understand most of your points, and you have very sound reasoning, and I have received and am implementing your advice,) on how you think this is bad design, I would love to hear it.

Yes, making prestige classes for druids is difficult in that you don't want them to be too powerful. I'm certainly not recommending you go the Planar Shepherd route of simply being druid+, but going druid- simply means no one will ever really consider the prestige class.
I originally had it with 7/10 casting, and full HD for Magical Beasts, with no Ferality, and full supernatural abilities. I was thought the powerlevel was kind of high, and several other posters reiterated my unsaid opinion, so I changed it. Do you think I should add one, or a few of these things back in?

At the very least, I really, really appreciate the critique. It was very informative and helpful.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 06:59 PM

Sorry about that, but I mean, it is not like it is that hard to change the fluff. I guess I could change that requirement, but what would I add in, as a replacement? I just wanted to add a prerequisite that would limit the users of the class more.

The thing that bugged me was more the contradiction of sorts than the campaign specific fluff. Actually, I kind of like seeing campaign specific fluff even when it's in a vacuum as it gets my mind racing as to what these little details, people, and places could be.

What would you suggest? That was one of the hardest parts, considering there are not that many feats or abilities that I could add that fit the feel very well.

There are a fair amount of "Wild" feats introduced in I want to say Complete Adventurer and later that give you new toys either while wildshaping or at the expense of a daily use of wildshape. Those would be in order.

But then again, there are not all that many skills that really fit the feel of the class.[/url]

My usual habit is to copypasta the intended entrant's skill list, drop a few things here, add a few there, and then go from there.

[QUOTE=unosarta;9117462]It is that, or make the character able to control his, well, pretty strong, crazily feral character. I guess I could simply say that the character must attack all living creatures within a certain distance every round. I just wanted to keep a limiting factor on the Ability to shapeshift into Magical Beasts with supernatural abilities.

You could copy from the Frenzied Beserker and its option to will save away the problem each round, but the current idea you have on paper still doesn't quite sit right with me. It may just be easier to give them a new type of rage, really.

But, when combined with the effect of Ferality, it makes it so that the character does not necessarily have to spend a lot of time in Wildshape, and also conveys the feeling that the character is slowly turning into a beast. Do you have any suggestions for increasing the power?

See, this is something I don't quite understand. You have a class more or less built around being an animal with wildshape, but you can't use such without running the risk of going om nom nom at random, so instead you get claws and the like to make up for it. As for suggestions, I'd hit up the Primeval prestige class from Frostburn for inspiration. Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior may also fuel you some ideas.

Hm. I guess I can see your point however: Limited Wildshape? In what way? You gain a use at every level, and the normal progression of hours and HD for animals, and the normal progression of hours, and half HD for Magical Animals, AND you get to use their Supernatural Abilities.

I have to apologize for some of that. I keep thinking that there's a feat that lets you hit all magical beasts, but it only covers a small array. As such, it really isn't limited due to the options available, so that's certainly worth the lose of spells and probably the animal companion.

Even so, it still seems "flat" to me. This is probably due to the fact that your primary tricks come from what forms you take rather than the class itself.

The Check for Ferality isn't that bad, especially at high levels, where you can stay in the same shape for pretty much the entire day, and only have to roll once, with a DC of 1, that cannot be failed on a roll of 1.

This is true, but even having it there bugs me, but, as the class has no real need for wisdom and lacks a good will save, it could lead into some issues at mid levels. Failing the check is a major pain, too, as it blows at least 2 hours with the CoP unconscious with an average of 5 hours.

If you could explain a little bit more (I understand most of your points, and you have very sound reasoning, and I have received and am implementing your advice,) on how you think this is bad design, I would love to hear it.

In general, I feel as though prestige classes should shoot for a +0 or +1 on the Tier System for Prestige Classes designed by sonofzeal. Generally speaking, the class should be maybe slightly stronger than the entry class, but should make people consider whether they actually want to take the prestige class or not, comparing what they gain to what they lose.

With druids, most of the time just being a druid is better than anything a prestige class can over you, however, if you make a prestige class give moar to a druid the general reaction is "Woooah! OMG IMBA!" type of things. At the very least, people telling you to weaken it a bit. In the end, this turns into a fine balancing act, more so than usual.

Now, I will admit to missing the free (Su) on the magical beasts. As such, this class would certainly be a +1 or +0 option for a wildshape ranger, which is good. For a druid, it's probably a -1 option at the moment.

I originally had it with 7/10 casting, and full HD for Magical Beasts, with no Ferality, and full supernatural abilities. I was thought the powerlevel was kind of high, and several other posters reiterated my unsaid opinion, so I changed it. Do you think I should add one, or a few of these things back in?

At the very least, I really, really appreciate the critique. It was very informative and helpful.

Full HD on magical beasts opens up the usual can of worms with wildshape and all. Although, I do think that most magical beasts are rather beefy in teh HD region, so that may be in order. To me, this doesn't seem like a caster, so casting would be, at most half if at all. An animal companion does seem in order, though, what with being a beast and all, maybe even give them a chance to grab a magical beast instead.

Doctor Acula

2010-08-10, 07:29 PM

Wilderness Incarnate

It's odd that you have to be able to bind soulmelds to so many different chakras, but other than that, entry requirements look fine.

I took the requirement for necrocarnate, I see a couple other PRCs I can look at the requirements for

You're not done on the skills or HD, but the BAB looks low to me. Yeah, I know Incarnates are poor BAB, too, but I still can't shake the idea that this is a Totemist PrC. Saves look fine, though.

It was made to work for both, and honestly I just havent gotten around to giving it a medium BaB from the origonal template I copy/paste from initially

New soulmelds are always appreciated, but I'll wait till their up to PEACH (obviously).

Yeah...I am planning on homebrewing ALOT of soulmends

Nature's Glory is a straight up improvement over the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat/class feature. It's good, perhaps too good.

I don't see that

Evolution is pretty powerful as you've essentially always have access to the entire list of terrain soulmelds. That's pretty strong, as I just need to have one terrain soulmeld up to use it. You need to detail what happens to binds, though.

Rapid Evolution has some of the same issues as above, but now you also get to do something important!

Do you think it would work better if it was only rapid evolution?

The class doesn't give you access to new binds, which is troubling. You should fix that.

It does, it's just not done yet.

Arbitrarious

2010-08-10, 07:41 PM

Hmm... Already so many cool and interesting entries. The only idea I've got kicking around is for a Lycanthrope class with actual class features. A little dash of Lunar Exalted with D&D flavor. Time to get to work.

Ajadea

2010-08-10, 07:52 PM

This... this feels like cheating!:smalltongue: Kidding aside, it's time for everyone's favorite fruit!

Wildrunner

Overall, the class lacks focus. Yeah, it's about getting out into the natural world but none of the class abilities really work with each other. Instead, you gain basically all movement types ever, can move slightly faster, have some skirmish, and can speak with everything from fluffy the bunny to Jorlex, Eater of Worlds.

Entry requirements seem fairly easy for a 7th level druid, ranger, or scout. Druids probably won' bother, but they have the option

It was meant to be a very ranger/scout oriented PrC, so good to know I've got that part right.

Climb Like An Ape is cute, but comes into play around the time that flying becomes more and more prevalent. Still, having another movement mode is never a bad thing.

I am aware of this, but it seemed odd to have the flight so soon.

Owl's Vision is underwhelming. Low-light vision is nice, but there are several options for darkvision by this point. Your multipliers are not the usual standard. Normally, x2 goes to x3 which goes to x4 and so on. I'm kind of surprised that this doesn't give a bonus on spot or search checks.

Meh. I removed it. Not useful, and I really need to pare down on the Class Features anyways.

Skirmish is always a nice thing to have. Your text at 9th level is off, however, and it is the same as the previous entry in the table.

Oops. Fixed.

Hold Breath is really kind of... odd. Giving full on water breathing wouldn't be a bad thing, but it doesn't seem to do much for the class in general. It's just sort of there.

I removed it and shifted the Undersea breathing feature to 2nd.

Wild Step is nice in that it bypasses all difficult terrain. So, if you're on the ground, it'll be pretty useful.

Ok, so I'll leave that alone. It's probably my favorite part.

Swim With the Fishes/Fly with the Birds is, like Hold Breath, just sort of there.

Is this a bad thing? Also, the Jump bonus was lowered laregly to fit with the pattern of +8 to X skill when you gain the movement speed.

For (whatever)Speaker, you should detail by what means. Simply copypastaing text from Tongue of Sun and Moon and mentioning Speak with Animals will suffice. Again, there seems to be no real focus to the class at this point.

Bleh, not good! It's meant to be a mobile skirmisher who moves through the wild as easily as we walk across flat ground. The description is fixed, however, Beastspeaker and Verminspeaker were melded, and Plantspeaker was added at level 8. No prizes for guessing what it does.

Enduring Journey is nice as it helps avoid some standard debuffs. It's fairly easy to grab immunity to fatigue or exhaustion before grabbing something else that makes you immune to the other, too.

Ok, leaving that one alone then.

Tunnel with the Vermin: Burrowing is generally on par with flying. You should mention the Escape Artist DC for same-sized creatures and also clean up the wording a bit on the collapse of the tunnel.

Ok, fixed.

Walk with the Spirits is nice to have, but its caster level will be pitifully low.

Caster Level = 2xWildrunner level. This is not pitifully low.

unosarta

2010-08-10, 08:06 PM

The thing that bugged me was more the contradiction of sorts than the campaign specific fluff. Actually, I kind of like seeing campaign specific fluff even when it's in a vacuum as it gets my mind racing as to what these little details, people, and places could be.

K. It is changed now. And I should have the campaign setting itself up in an hour or so, just got the maps uploaded, now I just have to figure out how to attach them in HTML code. :smalleek:

There are a fair amount of "Wild" feats introduced in I want to say Complete Adventurer and later that give you new toys either while wildshaping or at the expense of a daily use of wildshape. Those would be in order.
Hm, actually that should work nicely. Unfortunately, several of those feats are covered by nature's conversion, but a few should work out nicely. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

My usual habit is to copypasta the intended entrant's skill list, drop a few things here, add a few there, and then go from there.
Actually, I pretty much did that, but, a) the druids skill list isn't that extensive, and b) The stuff that they don't have is pretty much not very "bestial" in my way of thinking. I suppose I could add hide and move silently, and a couple of others.

You could copy from the Frenzied Beserker and its option to will save away the problem each round, but the current idea you have on paper still doesn't quite sit right with me. It may just be easier to give them a new type of rage, really.
Actually, a will save while under the effects of Ferality isn't a bad idea.

Or maybe both? Add the new type of rage, and also the will away during Ferality option? I like it! Thanks!

See, this is something I don't quite understand. You have a class more or less built around being an animal with wildshape, but you can't use such without running the risk of going om nom nom at random, so instead you get claws and the like to make up for it. As for suggestions, I'd hit up the Primeval prestige class from Frostburn for inspiration. Warshaper and Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior may also fuel you some ideas.
Hm, I definitely see your point. I know of the last two, never heard of the first one. But the thing about the Warshaper's abilities (At least in the natural weapons department) is that they are very... I don't know, not very well thought out. According to RAW, you can grow a pair of claws, well, pretty much anywhere. Maybe, the damage scales to the maximum size you can Wildshape to? So, at ninth level, you would have the claws and bite of a gargantuan creature? Combined with the new rage mechanic that you suggested, that might help. But would these be accessible while in Wildshape. I am hesitantly saying yes.

I have to apologize for some of that. I keep thinking that there's a feat that lets you hit all magical beasts, but it only covers a small array. As such, it really isn't limited due to the options available, so that's certainly worth the lose of spells and probably the animal companion.
That is perfectly all right. I felt no offense at all. :smallsmile:

Also, I do not think that feat allows you to gain the supernatural abilities of the creatures, but I am not sure on that.

Even so, it still seems "flat" to me. This is probably due to the fact that your primary tricks come from what forms you take rather than the class itself.
As opposed to Master of Many Forms? I don't think they gain any real tricks besides Wildshaping, except for Shifter's Speech, and Evershifting Form. Well, and fast Wildshape, but I think that just sort of applies to Wildshaping as well.

This is true, but even having it there bugs me, but, as the class has no real need for wisdom and lacks a good will save, it could lead into some issues at mid levels. Failing the check is a major pain, too, as it blows at least 2 hours with the CoP unconscious with an average of 5 hours.
Actually, if you read the class table, it has a good will save. As does the Druid. Hm, maybe lowering the hours unconscious? I was trying to show how the event exhausts the Child of Petriel phenomenally.

In general, I feel as though prestige classes should shoot for a +0 or +1 on the Tier System for Prestige Classes designed by sonofzeal. Generally speaking, the class should be maybe slightly stronger than the entry class, but should make people consider whether they actually want to take the prestige class or not, comparing what they gain to what they lose.
Oh, I have never seen this tier system! Can you link it, it sounds interesting.

With druids, most of the time just being a druid is better than anything a prestige class can over you, however, if you make a prestige class give moar to a druid the general reaction is "Woooah! OMG IMBA!" type of things. At the very least, people telling you to weaken it a bit. In the end, this turns into a fine balancing act, more so than usual.
Yeah, that is very true. I kind of like the actual abilities and fluff a lot, just for druids and rangers in general.

Now, I will admit to missing the free (Su) on the magical beasts. As such, this class would certainly be a +1 or +0 option for a wildshape ranger, which is good. For a druid, it's probably a -1 option at the moment.
OK. How do you think I could up the power just a tiny, tiny bit? Remove the Ferality ability, and add the rage mechanic? I think that would do it, but I am sort of partial.

Full HD on magical beasts opens up the usual can of worms with wildshape and all. Although, I do think that most magical beasts are rather beefy in the HD region, so that may be in order. To me, this doesn't seem like a caster, so casting would be, at most half if at all. An animal companion does seem in order, though, what with being a beast and all, maybe even give them a chance to grab a magical beast instead.
Yeah, that is why I mostly am avoiding it. Actually, I do not think there are even that many Magical Beasts in general. I can only find about 8, just in Core. Yeah, I could do an animal companion. Thanks for all of the critiquing! :smallsmile:

Edit: CoP updated!

Chambers

2010-08-10, 08:17 PM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 08:50 PM

This post brought to you buy multi-quote. Ask your doctor if multi-quote is right for you!

Wilderness Incarnate

I took the requirement for necrocarnate, I see a couple other PRCs I can look at the requirements for

It was made to work for both, and honestly I just havent gotten around to giving it a medium BaB from the origonal template I copy/paste from initially

Ah, okay. Most of the incarnum prestige classes I recall off-hand only require the ability to bind to a chakra, which is why I found the actual list odd.

Yeah...I am planning on homebrewing ALOT of soulmends

I look forward to seeing such!

I don't see that

Expanded Soulmeld capacity increases the cap for soulmelds by 1. Yours boosts the cap to a subset of soulmelds and throws them a free essentia for that soulmeld while you're at it. It's not gamebreaking, but it is a bit more. Honestly, the odd thing is, at the earlier levels, it may mean that a character could have overflow essentia depending on which melds he had for the day.

Do you think it would work better if it was only rapid evolution?

Maybe? It would probably be better just to throw some sort of per day limit on it. Although, at the standard action cost, it largely just means that you always have the right skill up for the job. Considering that most incarnates open battle blowing their swift action on the shuffle both abilities would probably be fine. Honestly, I'm just largely uncertain. I'll let someone else with some more incarnum experience throw their opinion down.

It does, it's just not done yet.

Ah, I figured as much.

Wildrunner

I am aware of this, but it seemed odd to have the flight so soon.

Of course, of course. Opening with climb is probably a good move as it's like fly- for most dungeon-delving.

Meh. I removed it. Not useful, and I really need to pare down on the Class Features anyways.

I don't think it's so much you need to pair down the features as give them some focus.

I removed it and shifted the Undersea breathing feature to 2nd.

Sounds good.

Is this a bad thing? Also, the Jump bonus was lowered laregly to fit with the pattern of +8 to X skill when you gain the movement speed.

Not really, but +10 seems to be consistent with creatures that list gaining a bonus on jump from wings is all.

Bleh, not good! It's meant to be a mobile skirmisher who moves through the wild as easily as we walk across flat ground. The description is fixed, however, Beastspeaker and Verminspeaker were melded, and Plantspeaker was added at level 8. No prizes for guessing what it does.

Sounds good. You should probably change the second sentence to "Treat this as the speak with animals spell, except that it always on and does not require concentration to use."

Caster Level = 2xWildrunner level. This is not pitifully low.

Huh, for some reason I read that as simply being caster level = wildrunner level. Nevermind then.:smallredface:

Child of Petriel

K. It is changed now. And I should have the campaign setting itself up in an hour or so, just got the maps uploaded, now I just have to figure out how to attach them in HTML code. :smalleek:

I may take a look at it once it's up. Campaign settings are a little harder to judge than most other forms of 'brew, though.

Hm, actually that should work nicely. Unfortunately, several of those feats are covered by nature's conversion, but a few should work out nicely. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

No problem. It seemed like a perfect fit to the theme.

Actually, I pretty much did that, but, a) the druids skill list isn't that extensive, and b) The stuff that they don't have is pretty much not very "bestial" in my way of thinking. I suppose I could add hide and move silently, and a couple of others.

Well, carry on then. I just thought that the amount of class skills felt a little light for the usual 4+, but I must be mistaken.

Actually, a will save while under the effects of Ferality isn't a bad idea.

Or maybe both? Add the new type of rage, and also the will away during Ferality option? I like it! Thanks!

Both probably would be the best way to work. Probably have Ferality function like an alternate rage and give actual rage, too. Maybe require Ferality to burn a use of rage and wildshape? Just a thought.

Hm, I definitely see your point. I know of the last two, never heard of the first one. But the thing about the Warshaper's abilities (At least in the natural weapons department) is that they are very... I don't know, not very well thought out. According to RAW, you can grow a pair of claws, well, pretty much anywhere. Maybe, the damage scales to the maximum size you can Wildshape to? So, at ninth level, you would have the claws and bite of a gargantuan creature? Combined with the new rage mechanic that you suggested, that might help. But would these be accessible while in Wildshape. I am hesitantly saying yes.

Warshaper by RAW can get silly. I believe an FAQ covered the limit on the natural attacks, however. As for Primeval, it gains an odd form of wildshape restricted to primarily ancient animals like dinosaurs and the like, but slaps their stats as a bonus instead of a straight replacement. If you can borrow a copy of Frostburn, you should definitely take a look for an interesting way to give martial characters some shapechanging.

As for your prestige class, limiting the damage by size increases could be tricky wording due to outside size modifiers, but it's not a bad idea in general. I would say that they should be available in wildshape. Not every animal foams at the mouth, but there are enough that do.

That is perfectly all right. I felt no offense at all. :smallsmile:

Glad to hear. My usual habit in PEACHing is largely run off of intuition, so there are usually some mistakes when what I remember, what my gut reaction is, and what the books actually say are all different.

Also, I do not think that feat allows you to gain the supernatural abilities of the creatures, but I am not sure on that.

The feat lets you grab beasties with the (cold) subtype, (Su) and all as I can remember people suggesting going cryohydra for 12x3d6 cold breath attacks.

As opposed to Master of Many Forms? I don't think they gain any real tricks besides Wildshaping, except for Shifter's Speech, and Evershifting Form. Well, and fast Wildshape, but I think that just sort of applies to Wildshaping as well.

They gain a whole slew of new options for wildshape at almost every level, so that does help them slightly. I was partially thinking of the Transmorgifier from Complete Arcane, who can mix and match creature abilities later on, though. However, I do see your point. If you go with a sort of rage mechanic, that should help add some "umph" to the class.

Actually, if you read the class table, it has a good will save. As does the Druid. Hm, maybe lowering the hours unconscious? I was trying to show how the event exhausts the Child of Petriel phenomenally.

Bah, my bad on the saves. For some reason, I thought it was good Fort/Ref, bad Will. As for the penalty, the actual exhaustion status is an old standby. If they do fall unconscious, I would make it for only 10 minutes, tops so as to not slow down the party in a possible time-sensitive mission.

Oh, I have never seen this tier system! Can you link it, it sounds interesting.

Here you go. There may be an updated version out there somewhere, but this one is still pretty solid.

Yeah, that is very true. I kind of like the actual abilities and fluff a lot, just for druids and rangers in general.

Well, so far you've done pretty well with the balancing act considering what you're working with.

OK. How do you think I could up the power just a tiny, tiny bit? Remove the Ferality ability, and add the rage mechanic? I think that would do it, but I am sort of partial.

Even though I don't play many barbarians, I'm a big fan of rages. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3237.0) As such, I'd go with either a straight copypasta of the barbarian's rage, a new rage for the class itself, or a merger of rage and wildshape with a new Ferality - hell, maybe all of the above.

Yeah, that is why I mostly am avoiding it. Actually, I do not think there are even that many Magical Beasts in general. I can only find about 8, just in Core. Yeah, I could do an animal companion. Thanks for all of the critiquing! :smallsmile:

No problem. It'd be a lot of work, but you could go through the later monster manual's index to find all of their magical beasts to make sure there are no obvious game breakers.

unosarta

2010-08-10, 09:27 PM

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Child of Petriel

I may take a look at it once it's up. Campaign settings are a little harder to judge than most other forms of 'brew, though.

Yeah. To be honest, this one is kind of extensive. I.E. don't plan on reading all of it in one go, unless you are skimming, or are planning to spend a couple of hours. It was 45 pages, in a word document. That is 19,832 pages, not including a new base class that I made, or this class. Posting it is going to be fun.

No problem. It seemed like a perfect fit to the theme.

Yeah, I was considering it, and to be honest, it does kind of limit the power, because the ones that I have added also have built in skill requirements, and they are kind of weak feats.

Well, carry on then. I just thought that the amount of class skills felt a little light for the usual 4+, but I must be mistaken.

Meh. The Druid is kind of a light skill class. But then again, they don't really need them.

Both probably would be the best way to work. Probably have Ferality function like an alternate rage and give actual rage, too. Maybe require Ferality to burn a use of rage and wildshape? Just a thought.

The current way I have it working, is that ferality IS the rage. but it's not like the ferality I had, it is just a rage, with strength and dexterity instead of constitution, and a bonus to reflex scores and the survival skill, and a penalty to will saves. 1/encounter at 3, twice at eighth.

Warshaper by RAW can get silly. I believe an FAQ covered the limit on the natural attacks, however. As for Primeval, it gains an odd form of wildshape restricted to primarily ancient animals like dinosaurs and the like, but slaps their stats as a bonus instead of a straight replacement. If you can borrow a copy of Frostburn, you should definitely take a look for an interesting way to give martial characters some shapechanging.

Hm, that sounds interesting. Honestly, I feel that Warshaper is just a bit too... weird. It is built for those who can polymorph at will (not to many of those), those who can caster polymorph (but doesn't grant any caster levels), those who can shapechange (who generally also gain the most out of the class) and those that can Wildshape, but doesn't progress wildshape at all.

As for your prestige class, limiting the damage by size increases could be tricky wording due to outside size modifiers, but it's not a bad idea in general. I would say that they should be available in wildshape. Not every animal foams at the mouth, but there are enough that do.

Ah, well, I put it up, you should go read it, and check if it looks OK. I basically took the table that progresses damage based on what size you are for weapons, and boosted the damage accordingly, based on how large you can Wildshape into.

Glad to hear. My usual habit in PEACHing is largely run off of intuition, so there are usually some mistakes when what I remember, what my gut reaction is, and what the books actually say are all different.

That is fine. Honestly, if you were P.E.A.C.H.ing with all of your books nearby, just to check, I can imagine that that would become a hassle.

The feat lets you grab beasties with the (cold) subtype, (Su) and all as I can remember people suggesting going cryohydra for 12x3d6 cold breath attacks.

Ah. Yeesh. Yeah, the hydra's are pretty good, but honestly, the most powerful ones (12 headed) are not available to the CoP because of the half level restriction. That's partially why I implemented it.

They gain a whole slew of new options for wildshape at almost every level, so that does help them slightly. I was partially thinking of the Transmorgifier from Complete Arcane, who can mix and match creature abilities later on, though. However, I do see your point. If you go with a sort of rage mechanic, that should help add some "umph" to the class.

Yeah, I really like that class (MoMF), but it's abilities are basically ALL geared towards Wildshape. Hm, I shall go check that other class out. :smallsmile:

Bah, my bad on the saves. For some reason, I thought it was good Fort/Ref, bad Will. As for the penalty, the actual exhaustion status is an old standby. If they do fall unconscious, I would make it for only 10 minutes, tops so as to not slow down the party in a possible time-sensitive mission.

No problem. I removed the ability anyway (seemed kinda clunky and weird, like you mentioned).

Here you go. There may be an updated version out there somewhere, but this one is still pretty solid.

This is pretty interesting. I assume it was only Sonofzeal who wrote the tiers? Some of the classes do not seem to match each other, but overall, it makes a lot of sense.

Well, so far you've done pretty well with the balancing act considering what you're working with.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

Even though I don't play many barbarians, I'm a big fan of rages. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3237.0) As such, I'd go with either a straight copypasta of the barbarian's rage, a new rage for the class itself, or a merger of rage and wildshape with a new Ferality - hell, maybe all of the above.

Rage mechanics are interesting from both a mechanical standpoint, as well as a character standpoint. I kind of want to keep this away from making it too much of a Gish Barbarian/Druid, so I think I will leave that up to someone else, who wants to make a class like that. :smallsmile:

No problem. It'd be a lot of work, but you could go through the later monster manual's index to find all of their magical beasts to make sure there are no obvious game breakers.

No thank you. I do think there are many under 10 HD, but I know there are a very pretty powerful ones over 10 HD, and those are the ones I am worried about. Thanks again! :smallsmile:

Edit: Also, campaign setting is up, and for those who want to know about CoP's fluff, or more specifically Petriel herself, you might want to check it out.

Kasande (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9118560#post9118560)

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 10:37 PM

So, is my idea fine for the contest? Or does it need to be more focused on nature rather than just overriding it?

Also, on a side note, would anyone be interested if I started a monthly contest for paired entries similar to PrC Contest XVII, but not limited to PrCs?

Owrtho

This is something I meant to comment on, but got lost in the shuffle after the first wave of entrants came online. While a general two-man team contest would be fun, I wonder if it wouldn't clash a little bit with the monster contests and the potpourri contests. I will say that the idea of future dual contests interests me immensely, though.

Oh, and while I'm at it. I forgot to mention in the Child of Petriel, but references based on druid levels and the like for wildshape should probably be changed either to "effective druid levels" or "levels in classes that grant you wildshape" for all of those odd entrants. I'll take another look at the class sometime tomorrow or so.

unosarta

2010-08-10, 10:41 PM

Oh, and while I'm at it. I forgot to mention in the Child of Petriel, but references based on druid levels and the like for wildshape should probably be changed either to "effective druid levels" or "levels in classes that grant you wildshape" for all of those odd entrants. I'll take another look at the class sometime tomorrow or so.
OK, changing it.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-10, 10:45 PM

Got a lot more class ability up on the Betrayer.

@TDC: The avatars will be similar to vestiges in nature, but I'm not sure If I'm actually going to require rolls or not.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 10:51 PM

Got a lot more class ability up on the Betrayer.

@TDC: The avatars will be similar to vestiges in nature, but I'm not sure If I'm actually going to require rolls or not.

Interesting. I'm curious to see how they turn out. I'll take a look when I'm more coherent tomorrow.

Ajadea

2010-08-10, 11:20 PM

Thanks for your help, Thrice Dead Cat!

Forever Curious

2010-08-10, 11:40 PM

Posting Concept: Greenspeaker (A Fochlucan Lyrist Revision)

Because it's such a cool concept for a character, but the original prestige class has horrendous prerequisites. The revision will not be a dual casting, full bab class either. It will be a Bard with some Druid flavoring.

Nyeh! Please no! I'm doing a VERY similar thing (bard that sings to plants and controls them) and just have to type up a few things. I'm posting it in about half an hour.

ErrantX

2010-08-11, 12:34 AM

Nyeh! Please no! I'm doing a VERY similar thing (bard that sings to plants and controls them) and just have to type up a few things. I'm posting it in about half an hour.

I think they're different enough, if you're doing a Plant-type bard and he's doing a Fochlucan Lyrist redux, I think it's fine.

-X

EDIT: Though, the name Greenspeaker seems a bit too closer to Greensinger, another similar class. Perhaps a different name?

Fable Wright

2010-08-11, 12:40 AM

Perhaps greentongue? (Just brainstorming here...)

Forever Curious

2010-08-11, 01:08 AM

I think they're different enough, if you're doing a Plant-type bard and he's doing a Fochlucan Lyrist redux, I think it's fine.

-X

EDIT: Though, the name Greenspeaker seems a bit too closer to Greensinger, another similar class. Perhaps a different name?

Okay, cool. In any event, the Sylvan Herald (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9119499&postcount=8) is PEACHable.

Hyooz

2010-08-11, 08:45 AM

My entry, the Sylvan Scribe, is up!

Credit for the idea for the Bookkeeper goes to ThriceDeadCat, and his entry in DaTedinator's Potpourri Contest.

Chambers

2010-08-11, 09:06 AM

It's different than the Sylvan Herald. More focused on acquiring Druid type abilities and spells than doing cool plant things with Bardic Music. Which is neat. :smallsmile:

Haven't seen the Greensinger PrC, but another name is easy.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-11, 09:28 AM

Some ideas on my end include:

The Ancients are an organization of elves and a select few "mortal" races with precisely one goal - prevent and survive world-shattering cataclysms. To do that, they'll hunt for immortality, raise entire forests to battle, draw down the wrath of the sun, and even release antediluvian horrors trapped deep below the earth. Theme: Life must go on.

The Harmonists, on the other hand, are a group of hedge-witches and sympathetic sorcerers who draw upon symbolism more esoteric and effective than their Vancian bretheren. Armed with anything from blood to bonfires, twigs to mummified hands, they'll cast a spell when you least expect it - far more effectively than you might like. Theme: Imagination Triumphs.

The Cataclysmists are the harbingers of nature's wrath. Assassins and leg-breakers for the druidic orders, Cataclysmists hunt down necromancer's academies, apocalypse-mages, eldritch horrors and Elder Evils, all in the name of preserving the Balance. Predatory and savage, few can stand in their path. Theme: Savage Fury

Doctor Acula

2010-08-11, 10:14 AM

I have my first two soulmends up, they are both for the Tundra terrain and they are both for the World Chakra. I would really appreciate some peach on them. I have never made soulmends before so I know I messed up on them somehow

Edit: Also did one two world chakras for the desert terrain

DragoonWraith

2010-08-11, 10:40 AM

I really haven't had any ideas so far on this one. Hrm...

FlamingKobold

2010-08-11, 10:56 AM

Gareth, I really want to see what you do with the harmonists idea. The fluff is so cool, but I personally have no idea how to implement it, but I want to see it done. After that I like the Ancients, then the cataclysmists.

ErrantX

2010-08-11, 11:34 AM

Gareth, as per usual, I like all three of your ideas. What do I like? The Ancients. What do I think will garner you a better chance of winning? Hard to tell.

-X

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-11, 11:41 AM

Alright, time to get the new guys done before checking back with the changes.

Sylvan Herald

Opening fluff looks interesting. The entry requirements are fairly easy for a 10th level bard, although Green Ear is somewhat niche. I'm kind of wondering why you have the entry so late as most prestige classes outside of things like Archmage or Sublime Chord can be entered somewhere at 6th or 7th level.

Skills, skill points, HD, BAB, and saves all look to be in order. For casting, you may want to go the Lyric Thaumaturge route and make it advance just bard.

For Bloomsong, usually you determine which of the three effects of bardic music it increases (i.e., uses per day, strength of the bardic songs you already know, and new bardic songs learned). Right now it looks like you just want it to stack with uses per day, but someone could try to argue that you'd also continue increasing the strength of Inspire Courage and the like.

Chat of Growth is a little late at 11th level, but essentially locks everyone where they stand in the battlefield by reducing everything medium or smaller to 5 ft movement and everyone larger to 10 ft movement with difficult terrain. As the Sylvan Herald decides which squares suffer the reduced movement, this could lead to a murder hole type situation, which is cute. You should probably also allow them to decide which squares become difficult terrain, too. Also, bard songs tend to last an additional 5 rounds after you stop singing.

For Rally of the vines, it may be better to base the damage done and saves off of effective bardic music level instead of just Sylvan Herald levels, as the save starts off at 13+ Cha at 13th level, which is pitiful. Otherwise, it's not a bad effect, assuming plants are nearby.

You need to give a duration and area for the cloudkill spells effectively created by the plants. This could cause problems as there could be some serious overlap between the effective cloudkills, meaning multiple saves a round. Otherwise, it's fine.

Warcry of Roots is interesting. "Within earshot" is somewhat ambiguous, however, as I don't think there is a stated limit on bardic music except for what a DM calls it to be. Well, unless you're using an certain type of instrument in which case you're popping shambling mounds everywhere within 1d4 miles.

I am not a fan of Caustic Anthem, as generally things that destroy loot are not good for friend and foe alike.

Magic of the Earth is nice for circumventing expensive focuses and technically works for all classes you have. The switch to divine is kind of random, but it's not a big deal, as it basically bards that want to can now wear heavier armors.

Green-tongue should probably be (Su) as it's always up. You have it misspelled in the table.

Plant Friend is essentially an advanced woodland stride, which is kind of nice if a little late.

Commune with Nature is a pretty handy spell for info gathering. I approve.

Natural Harmony is nice, but the wording on being near a plant is a little wonky. Does it mean that a Herald has to be adjacent to a plant with HD equal to the Herald's class level or something else?

Woodland general is kind of cute. It'd be fairly useful in temporarily grabbing plant allies, depending on how common they are in general. You have it refer to "sylvan harmonic" rather than "sylvan herald," however.

Leafstrider is a decent alternative to teleport... except that this happens at 19th level, which means teleport has been in play for more than 10 levels.

One with Nature is a nice capstone, as the plant type gives a handy list of immunities with it.

Overall, the class itself is fine, except that its late entry makes it rather underwhelming for the level of play at which you get everything.

Sylvan Scribes

First off, I'm really happy to see some of my own work inspiring someone else, along with what you yourself have added to it!:smallsmile:

Entry requirements are odd in that you've basically got to go Druid 1/Archivist 5 or Druid 5/Archivist one, but are otherwise okay. Archivists willing to blow money could get in with just Archivist 5 by nabbing some scrolls of druid spells. Not sure if that was intended or not.

Skills, BAB, saves, and HD are all in order.

Your addition to allowing archivists comb the druid list along with the cleric list is nice for the spellcasting advancement and fits thematically.

The records are the Bookman's Tome serve as a handy way to record notes in character, but otherwise mimics a free book.

The "First Strata" is useful for activating dark knowledges and things like Knowledge Devotion. For the name, it should probably be "Stratum," as that's the singular. Otherwise not much to say.

Gaining pseudo-bardic knowledge is handy with the Knowledge. You should probably mention a small list of things for relevancy on the check, though.

Second Strata is again useful for hitting the higher DCs on Dark Knowledge and the like. Gaining all languages is basically tongues+ for records, as it allows you to potentially develop some useful codes with party members and tongues-less enemies.

Forgotten Lore is kind of cool for late game archivists with more knowledge ranks than sense. You should probably be clearer on the example with Foe, stating how it increases by an extra d6 for every additional X hit by the knowledge check used.

Sylvan Knowledge essentially acts as Archivist of Nature except for giants and monstrous humanoids, but also hits up humanoids, which are typically under Knowledge (Local). You should probably mention that a Sylvan Scribe could use Knowledge (Nature) in place of Local to identify humanoids. This also needs a type thrown on it (Su, Sp, etc.)

Limiting the Sylvan Knowledge to this types helps prevent this from being too good, which is a nice maneuver. Also, you need to list the base DC for each of these abilities.

Also, most if not all Dark Knowledges are normally move actions rather than standard actions, so I find it odd that Sylvan Knowledge eats the latter rather than the former. You also need a listing on uses per day, as per Dark Knowledge or if it just eats Dark Knowledge uses.

On Hidden Prey, you should probably change Blur to Displacement as the party members are probably not actually moving between planes just for some badgers. You should also stat whether the Invisibility is in addition to or instead of the first ability. Same goes for the Improved Invisibility.

For Impassioned Hunter, you should probably state the source for mindsight and lifesense, possibly also detailing their effects if you don't intend to also through them actual telepathy, too. Mentioning that these abilities only apply to the specific creature type/creature/race is also a good move.

Nature's Friend is an odd alternative to nab you some woodland critters. You should state if you intend to have similar results on the other possible types of Sylvan Knowledge or not. My guess is "no," but I figured I'd mention that.

Identify Bookman is an odd little ability for the fluff. I kind of like it, and it makes me want to collaborate with you on other prestige classes for the clergy.

Words of the Natural World looks interesting. You've got your choice of two of four, which isn't bad. I'm curious about the origins of the names for each ability, though. These also need a uses per day tag, too, even if they're at-will.

Mecroch is nice for temporary boost to your buddy, but I find it odd that Sylvan Scribe levels don't offer anything else to animal companions. You should probably nix the line about familiars, as such are generally arcane only. The limited 1d6 rounds also feels odd to me and kind of short.

You should stat what type of HD are gained from Yynglis. You may just want to copypasta some of the wording off of Inspire Greatness from the bard. Again, the 1d6 round limit is kind of short. You should probably also let this work on other 'morphed creatures, too.

The wording on Iggnil may need some use. I'm wondering if you intend to have this activate with a swift action rather than a standard or not. It could be useful for launching fire into buildings or the like, but that's only going to be 1d6 damage. It doesn't really do much for move water or air, though. It may be better to have it Move Earth on earth, and mimic other spells or abilities for the other elements.

Seronoth is kind of nice for gaining some elementals. You should probably add that a Sylvan Scribe doesn't particularly need the proper school of spell to fuel this ability. Other than that, looks good.

Bookkeeper’s Sage isn't listed in the table. The bonus on knowledges is nice and works well with the cap-breaker from Forgotten Lore. The hour long study session should detail what a Scribe's "domain" is. Otherwise, the intent seems to be a limited form of the usual divinations. Mimicing something like Commune with Nature is probably a good start.

I don't like Sylvan Prescription. Having a capstone that is nearly unusable is not a good thing. Although removing the alignment restriction is nice, coming so late makes it practically worthless. The fact that the only level of spellcasting lost is at 10th level effectively means most people are probably going to be out by then.

Outro fluff is interesting, too.

Overall, save for the capstone, it's an interesting class. You gain some limited tricks at the possible expense of a caster level on either druid or archivist. As druids don't advance animal companions and wildshape through the class, I doubt they'll spend much time in it. Archivists may or may not want to waste the level on entry, which means the class is somewhere between +0 and +1. My only real complaint is the capstone.

JoshuaZ

2010-08-11, 11:56 AM

Not sure what to do, right now thinking of two ideas:

1) Heralds of the Other- they corrupts things and turns animals and magical beasts into aberrations.

2) Don't have a name yet, but an order of druids that focus on preserving the psionic parts of nature.

Input on which people think is a better idea would be nice.

ErrantX

2010-08-11, 12:54 PM

I like Psionic Druids personally.

-X

FlamingKobold

2010-08-11, 01:31 PM

Psionic Druids would be fun, I agree. Plus that first idea sounds similar to what DMofDarkness is doing.

ErrantX

2010-08-11, 03:04 PM

Psionic Druids would be fun, I agree. Plus that first idea sounds similar to what DMofDarkness is doing.

Especially if it takes psionic classes like psion and ardent and gives them druid like class features and signature druid spells as powers. Would also be neat if it were a dual-advancement.

-X

Rauthiss

2010-08-11, 06:06 PM

Aaaaaaand my entry, which is totally not the idea I posted, is up. PEACHes are appreciated, and I will happily trade any delicious fruit, as long as it does not fall up.

unosarta

2010-08-11, 06:45 PM

Aaaaaaand my entry, which is totally not the idea I posted, is up. PEACHes are appreciated, and I will happily trade any delicious fruit, as long as it does not fall up.

Nothing to say on the mechanical side, seems kind of unfocused, but hey, what do I know.

The answer to that question is: "Nothing." :P (Dang forum smilies don't change color.)

As a side note though, if we made a party out of a bunch of these prestige classes, the results could be scary. Just imagine: a Child of Petriel, his Bestial Companion, the Wild Auxiliary, granting spells and bonuses to all of the Shapeshifting party members, his animal companion, the Shapeshift Master of Many Forms, his Animal Companion, and then, basically anyone else, just to even it out (This is using only the Wildshape/Shapeshifting classes, and the Wild Auxiliary, so that anyone could be any prestige class presented really. Sylvan Scribe would work well, with his Words of the Natural World ability, specifically Yynglis). That would be crazy. Although the Child of Petriel would be pretty much limited to Animals, instead of Magical Beasts, and his Companion would be as well, but when it hits high level, pretty much everyone in the party would have spell like abilities, and bonuses, and then their own abilities. Probably still not as powerful as a party of all druids, full druid though.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-11, 09:53 PM

As a side note though, if we made a party out of a bunch of these prestige classes, the results could be scary. <snip>

And my class would be the BBEG :smallbiggrin:

Now, time to give away delicious, delicious fruitses.

Wild Auxilary
I normal quote things while EACHing, but I don't feel like it. Sorry.

Fluff: I like it. Pretty basic druid idea that this specializes in, which is a great basis for a PrC. I little light, but it's a pretty broad topic, so that probably okay.

The requirement is to be a level 10 druid. You might want to add a bit more; a feat or two (homebrew or not) would be a good.

Exact same skills and points as a druid.

Druid HD.

Bad BAB, which is a step down from druid. Okay, your sacrificing something. Druid saves.

And your class levels stack for both companion and spellcasting. So the only things druids lose are thousand faces (useless), timeless body (useless), elemental, huge and plant wildshape (useful). Not really losing that much, IMO.

First ability is to give 3x spells of up to 2nd level, at slightly lower CL. Why do you only use the companion's wisdom to determine will saves? What about the others? There are a lot of low level utility spells that don't require a save, especially buffs. A lot of the times, the only things buff has based on CL is the duration, so the 3/day thing just makes them better. A good ability.

Nearby animals get +1 to strength? Probably won't do much. By the end, their modifier goes up by 1, maybe 2, and that's at 19th level. Also, I'd make this affect only allied animals.

Nature's Gift: Okay, so the wizard's familiar can do stuff too. Other animals are probably not a good idea, due to lack of loyalty/intelligence. Kind of a not as great level, which is fine, because you're getting a new level of spells.

Okay, now they get minor bonuses to dex too. These auras aren't really doing that much, compared with the stats of the animals at these levels and the probably persisted mass buffs.

3 levels in a row that yield you: all animals nearby gain +1 str, +1 dex and now you can make other animals, besides your faithful mount, cast spells. Not that great. Let's hope level 5 is cooler.

Pretty good ability, help a wild cohort or a familiar. However, curing seems to be basically the most useful thing to be doing, since any non-instantaneous effects go away if animals move beyond 5 feet.

Good for summoner builds, however most summoners won't focus on the AC as much. This is most optimal for summoning your highest level possible, of course. A good ability for summoning based druids, but kind of isn't cohesive with the flavor (besides MOAR ANIMAL!!!). Also, at this level, druid summoners are using greenbound or rashemi, so they no longer qualify for the bonus. Not sure if this would actually help summoners.

Just say "companion's gift" instead of "Nature's gift Companion's Gift." Also, this is quite nice, as there are a lot of 3rd and 4th level buffs that don't care about CL. Pretty fun. This is easily broken because with the action economy + the uses per day economy, this can deal a LOT of damage or provide a lot of in combat healing.

Now they get +2 con (basically improved toughness for free), which improves to +3 in one level, meaning that might go up by another 1hp/HD. This is okay, as animals at this level have a decent number of HD.

It's 19th level and you're summoning things that are CR 10-14, for the most part. Why would they give up a standard action to cast a level 2 spell? Barely worth it.

Capstone: is this situational or permanent? I think it's situational, but you should be clearer on that. Also, the 6th level thing is really good. At 20th level, you can have armies of animals through a number of means. Imagine a horde of rabbits flying around for 3 round casting things like wall of fire, baleful polymorph, wall of stones, call lightning storm, greater dispel magic, move earth, etc. Wow.

Conclusion: A lot of the ability this class is getting don't really do much. However, the actually useful abilities are kinda insane, and gives a druid a better capacity than almost any other character in the game to break the action economy. This reminds me of the truenamer (not as bad, obviously): it either can't do anything or it can do everything all day, depending on how you play it. Because of this, I have no idea about the approximate balance level, especially since you're not losing much to get in.

Anyone wishing to EACH the Nature's Betrayer: I'm still working on the Avatars, so just looking at the rest of the class would be cool (for now).

Rauthiss

2010-08-11, 10:21 PM

ETC, ETC. (Evaluate the critique!)

Now, time to give away delicious, delicious fruitses. SWEET

Wild Auxilary
I normal quote things while EACHing, but I don't feel like it. Sorry. 'Sokay

Fluff: I like it. Pretty basic druid idea that this specializes in, which is a great basis for a PrC. I little light, but it's a pretty broad topic, so that probably okay. Thanks. :3

The requirement is to be a level 10 druid. You might want to add a bit more; a feat or two (homebrew or not) would be a good. That's kind of what I was looking for. I really like classes like Seeker of the Song and Sublime Chord that function like paragon classes from 4E - easy to qualify for and they help you differentiate yourself from other members of your class.

Exact same skills and points as a druid. See above; I didn't see anything that needed to be added or gotten rid of.

Druid HD. Again.

Bad BAB, which is a step down from druid. Okay, your sacrificing something. Druid saves. Yep. The idea is to discourage you from fighting so your animals can.

And your class levels stack for both companion and spellcasting. So the only things druids lose are thousand faces (useless), timeless body (useless), elemental, huge and plant wildshape (useful). Not really losing that much, IMO. I'm thinking of maybe having them lose wildshape altogether, but I think the loss of progression hurts a lot. Not really sure here. :S

First ability is to give 3x spells of up to 2nd level, at slightly lower CL. Why do you only use the companion's wisdom to determine will saves? What about the others? There are a lot of low level utility spells that don't require a save, especially buffs. A lot of the times, the only things buff has based on CL is the duration, so the 3/day thing just makes them better. A good ability. Derp, that should say all save DCs. Nice catch. And thanks.

Nearby animals get +1 to strength? Probably won't do much. By the end, their modifier goes up by 1, maybe 2, and that's at 19th level. Also, I'd make this affect only allied animals. I almost made this class level/2. Seeing your response, I think I'll go with this. Also edit it to only allied animals.

Nature's Gift: Okay, so the wizard's familiar can do stuff too. Other animals are probably not a good idea, due to lack of loyalty/intelligence. Kind of a not as great level, which is fine, because you're getting a new level of spells. There is that, and that this also works on summoned animals. Effectively, you're trading 2 slots (The summon animal slot and the spell granted slot) for 3 of one spell and an animal. Overall, I don't think it's that bad.

Okay, now they get minor bonuses to dex too. These auras aren't really doing that much, compared with the stats of the animals at these levels and the probably persisted mass buffs. See above

3 levels in a row that yield you: all animals nearby gain +1 str, +1 dex and now you can make other animals, besides your faithful mount, cast spells. Not that great. Let's hope level 5 is cooler.

Pretty good ability, help a wild cohort or a familiar. However, curing seems to be basically the most useful thing to be doing, since any non-instantaneous effects go away if animals move beyond 5 feet. I personally like the WALL OF ANIMALS idea, especially combined with using higher levels of Summon Animal to get lots of animals. That said, you do have a point.

Good for summoner builds, however most summoners won't focus on the AC as much. This is most optimal for summoning your highest level possible, of course. A good ability for summoning based druids, but kind of isn't cohesive with the flavor (besides MOAR ANIMAL!!!). Also, at this level, druid summoners are using greenbound or rashemi, so they no longer qualify for the bonus. Not sure if this would actually help summoners. That kind of is the flavor. :B As for druids not summoning animals, I kind of want to give animals the help. You're getting crazy action advantage, especially if you summon the largest thing you can and give it SLA's once you hit 9th level.

Just say "companion's gift" instead of "Nature's gift Companion's Gift." Also, this is quite nice, as there are a lot of 3rd and 4th level buffs that don't care about CL. Pretty fun. This is easily broken because with the action economy + the uses per day economy, this can deal a LOT of damage or provide a lot of in combat healing. Okay. I wasn't really sure about making the levels higher; I might make it to touch or personal spells only.

Now they get +2 con (basically improved toughness for free), which improves to +3 in one level, meaning that might go up by another 1hp/HD. This is okay, as animals at this level have a decent number of HD. Yep.

It's 19th level and you're summoning things that are CR 10-14, for the most part. Why would they give up a standard action to cast a level 2 spell? Barely worth it. Bigger spell levels, touch or personal only? The level 2 is to stop crazyhax.

Capstone: is this situational or permanent? I think it's situational, but you should be clearer on that. Also, the 6th level thing is really good. At 20th level, you can have armies of animals through a number of means. Imagine a horde of rabbits flying around for 3 round casting things like wall of fire, baleful polymorph, wall of stones, call lightning storm, greater dispel magic, move earth, etc. Wow.Situational, and I will be. As for being really awesome, You're taking 10 levels of this class and you're near epic. You deserve awesome stuff.

Conclusion: A lot of the ability this class is getting don't really do much. However, the actually useful abilities are kinda insane, and gives a druid a better capacity than almost any other character in the game to break the action economy. This reminds me of the truenamer (not as bad, obviously): it either can't do anything or it can do everything all day, depending on how you play it. Because of this, I have no idea about the approximate balance level, especially since you're not losing much to get in.

I'm thinking of adding a few summoning based feats (Spell Focus: COnjuration, Augment Summoning) as prerequisites, and making it more clear in fluff that you're going from druid to druidmarshal in playstyle.