A try at fixing mystic theurge

[Fortuna]

Mystic Theurge

Hit Die: d4

Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells or 2nd level divine spells and 1st level arcane spells.


Class Skills

The mystic theurge’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Share Slots (0th)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Unified Mind (DCs)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Share Slots (1st)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Unified Mind (Bonus Spells)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Share Slots (2nd)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Unified Spells|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Share Slots (3rd)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Unified Genius|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Share Slots (4th)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class [/table]

Share Slots: A mystic theurge can share spell slots between their classes. The theurge may choose to prepare any spell up to the level noted in the table in any slot for at least that level of spell. They may also leave any such spell slot empty in order to cast a spell from it spontaneously if they would normally be able to cast a spell of that level spontaneously.

Unified Mind: Starting at second level, a mystic theurge may add half of the ability score modifier used for determining DCs for their divine spells to their arcane spell DCs, and vice versa. At fourth level and above they may add half the ability score modifier that they use for determining bonus spells for their arcane spells to their ability score modifier used for determining bonus divine spells for the purpose of determining bonus spell slots, and vice versa.

Unified Spells: Starting at sixth level, a mystic theurge may combine an arcane and a divine spell. The spell levels of the two spells are added to determine the new spell's spell level. Both spells must be eligible for sharing slots. The new spell may be prepared in either kind of slot, or cast spontaneously as if it was a metamagiced spell. The longer of the casting times of the two spells is used for the new spell, and for all other purposes the spell is treated as being the two spells cast seperately.

Unified Genius: Starting at eighth level, the mystic theurge adds both appropriate ability score modifiers together for the purposes of save DCs and bonus spells. This does not stack with unified mind.

Progressing Beyond Tenth Level

Although the above table only extends to ten levels, the continued progression for a mystic theurge is fairly obvious. Share Slots continues to rise at the rate of one spell level for every two class levels, while spellcasting is progressed at every level. This extended progression should be permitted pre-epic.

Progressing New Classes with Mystic Theurge

A mystic theurge may choose at any time to start the mystic theurge progression from scratch in order to progress a different pair of classes. When doing this, it should be noted that Unified Mind and Unified Genius do not stack: only the highest applicable bonus to a given spell set's save DCs or bonus spells should be applied from these abilities.

Epic Mystic Theurge

The mystic theurge does not have an epic progression per se. Instead, the mystic theurge has an infinite progression pre-epic. When one of the classes that the mystic theurge is progressing reaches 20th level spellcasting, the mystic theurge replaces progressing that class's spellcasting with half that class's bonus feat progression while progressing the other class normally.

So thoughts? I figured that the problems were MAD, losing out on too many casting levels, not progressing far enough, and little to no synergy between your casting sets. Hopefully this fixes those. Note that this was intended as a tier 1 PrC all the way.

[Drolyt]

Mystic Theurge

Hit Die: d4

Requirements
To qualify to become a mystic theurge, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells or 2nd level divine spells and 1st level arcane spells.


Class Skills

The mystic theurge’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Share Slots (0th)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Unified Mind (DCs)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Share Slots (1st)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Unified Mind (Bonus Spells)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Share Slots (2nd)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Unified Spells|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Share Slots (3rd)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Unified Genius|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Share Slots (4th)|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class [/table]

Share Slots: A mystic theurge can share spell slots between their classes. The theurge may choose to prepare any spell up to the level noted in the table in any slot for at least that level of spell. They may also leave any such spell slot empty in order to cast a spell from it spontaneously if they would normally be able to cast a spell of that level spontaneously.

Unified Mind: Starting at second level, a mystic theurge may add half of the ability score modifier used for determining DCs for their divine spells to their arcane spell DCs, and vice versa. At fourth level and above they may add half the ability score modifier that they use for determining bonus spells for their arcane spells to their ability score modifier used for determining bonus divine spells for the purpose of determining bonus spell slots, and vice versa.

Unified Spells: Starting at sixth level, a mystic theurge may combine an arcane and a divine spell. The spell levels of the two spells are added to determine the new spell's spell level. Both spells must be eligible for sharing slots. The new spell may be prepared in either kind of slot, or cast spontaneously as if it was a metamagiced spell. The longer of the casting times of the two spells is used for the new spell, and for all other purposes the spell is treated as being the two spells cast seperately.

Unified Genius: Starting at eighth level, the mystic theurge adds both appropriate ability score modifiers together for the purposes of save DCs and bonus spells. This does not stack with unified mind.

Progressing Beyond Tenth Level

Although the above table only extends to ten levels, the continued progression for a mystic theurge is fairly obvious. Share Slots continues to rise at the rate of one spell level for every two class levels, while spellcasting is progressed at every level. This extended progression should be permitted pre-epic.

Progressing New Classes with Mystic Theurge

A mystic theurge may choose at any time to start the mystic theurge progression from scratch in order to progress a different pair of classes. When doing this, it should be noted that Unified Mind and Unified Genius do not stack: only the highest applicable bonus to a given spell set's save DCs or bonus spells should be applied from these abilities.

Epic Mystic Theurge

The mystic theurge does not have an epic progression per se. Instead, the mystic theurge has an infinite progression pre-epic. When one of the classes that the mystic theurge is progressing reaches 20th level spellcasting, the mystic theurge replaces progressing that class's spellcasting with half that class's bonus feat progression while progressing the other class normally.

So thoughts? I figured that the problems were MAD, losing out on too many casting levels, not progressing far enough, and little to no synergy between your casting sets. Hopefully this fixes those. Note that this was intended as a tier 1 PrC all the way.

It deals with all of the problems of the Mystic Theurge... and is in general too powerful, even for tier 1, which is quite a feat. A 3rd level Wizard/1st Level Cleric can enter it at level 5 and continue progressing till at level 20 you have 19th level Wizard spellcasting and 17th level Cleric spellcasting; that is you get 9th level spells in both. That alone might not be broken, what with stuff like IotSV and Incantatrix that you are missing out on for this, the problem is more Unified Mind/Unified Genius. With good rolls and lots of pluses you can get ridiculous save DCs and crap loads of spells. The other pretty broken thing is Share Slots. Does that stop at 4th level spells? If it does it's not that bad, but suppose it keeps increasing. Eventually you could prepare all your wizard and cleric spells slots as wizard spells. That's ridiculous. All in all I'd love to play this, just to be the most broken character on the block.

[ericgrau]

The key problem most people face with mystic theurge is that it trades strength of casting for more casting and more variety. With many people stuck at 1 encounter per day with nothing especially surprising about it, this becomes useless. Solutions are:

1. DM must create longer adventuring days, attacks at night, etc. Maybe the enemy won't let you have a break.

2. DM must create unusual encounters where oddball spells make a big difference.

3. You need to increase the class' power while reducing the number and variety of spells.

[lesser_minion]

I'd suggest making this as a base class - I don't think hybrid casters are really that viable otherwise.

[Latronis]

I'd suggest making this as a base class - I don't think hybrid casters are really that viable otherwise.

Competitive with single class casters you mean.

Even the most basic wiz\clr\thuerge is certainly viable.

[Drolyt]

Competitive with single class casters you mean.

Even the most basic wiz\clr\thuerge is certainly viable.

Viable? Yes. Comparable to tier 3 characters? Yes. Makes you feel sucky for being so much weaker than either of the base classes you are using? Yes!

Still, single classing it would be completely broken. At least the PRC presented here has the handicap that it cannot take uber PRCs in its place, so I guess it's balanced in campaigns that allow Incantatrix Cheese.

[Fortuna]

Actually, it's more powerful than I first thought. Consider, if you will, the possibility of mixing this with Arcane Heirophant or another dual progression class. The possibilities... are terrifying, as far as I can see.

[lesser_minion]

Competitive with single class casters you mean.

Even the most basic wiz\clr\thuerge is certainly viable.

Mystic Theurge is currently a 'pop into existence' class, which I think is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed. wiz/clr/theurge is cool at 15th or 20th, but I like characters that work at 7th level, 6th level, 5th level, and so on.

I'll admit that you can cheese the hell out of a BC mystic theurge (actually, it should be avoidable - the simplest version is to have the MT's spells count as 'neither' arcane nor divine and just smack two spell lists into each other, with appropriate removals.)

[Drolyt]

Actually, it's more powerful than I first thought. Consider, if you will, the possibility of mixing this with Arcane Heirophant or another dual progression class. The possibilities... are terrifying, as far as I can see.

You could already do that; it was the only way to make it viable at high levels. You just somehow managed to make it more broken.

[Drolyt]

Mystic Theurge is currently a 'pop into existence' class, which I think is the biggest issue that needs to be addressed. wiz/clr/theurge is cool at 15th or 20th, but I like characters that work at 7th level, 6th level, 5th level, and so on.

Here's the problem: Ideally you would be able to enter the class at 3rd level, with 1 level in each base class, but that is obviously overpowered. Move it back a bit and it is underpowered at pretty much every level.

[lesser_minion]

I'd be tempted to suggest a base class with spontaneous casting from the cleric and wizard lists (omitting certain spells), and a few actual class features. The end result would be solid tier 2.

[Drolyt]

I'd be tempted to suggest a base class with spontaneous casting from the cleric and wizard lists (omitting certain spells), and a few actual class features. The end result would be solid tier 2.

That's quite simple. It's called allow the Sorcerer to take Cleric Spells. Since he has a limited list of spells known it is in no way unbalanced anyways.

[Boci]

Here's the problem: Ideally you would be able to enter the class at 3rd level, with 1 level in each base class, but that is obviously overpowered. Move it back a bit and it is underpowered at pretty much every level.

Would making the preqs arcane and devine caster level 2 work? That would allow Cleric 2 / Wizard 2 / MT 10 / Anything 6.

[Roderick_BR]

Viable? Yes. Comparable to tier 3 characters? Yes. Makes you feel sucky for being so much weaker than either of the base classes you are using? Yes!

Still makes you far more powerful and versatile compared to non-casters? Yes!

That's a classic problem here. As the MT is, he is considered underpowered because you need to "lose caster levels" in 2 classes. If that's fixed so you can get 9th level spells in either or both, it becomes too overpowerd.

For the single class, I once worked the idea of making the sorcerer a sort of special caster, being able to learn any spell from the cleric/wizard list, instead of just making him a wizard clone. Considering how he's limited on spells known, and learns spells one class level later, wouldn't be too bad. And having his spellcasting based on Cha, unlike the wizard and cleric, it would make a nice flavoring. (though favored souls wouldn't fit a campaign world with this sort of sorcerer).
For quicks, increase his hit dice for d6, and give him at least +1 spell known for each spell level.

Edit: Darn ninjas.

[Latronis]

Whack a familiar on Favoured Soul and let it choose from sorc\wiz or cleric lists?

[Drolyt]

Still makes you far more powerful and versatile compared to non-casters? Yes!

That's a classic problem here. As the MT is, he is considered underpowered because you need to "lose caster levels" in 2 classes. If that's fixed so you can get 9th level spells in either or both, it becomes too overpowerd.

For the single class, I once worked the idea of making the sorcerer a sort of special caster, being able to learn any spell from the cleric/wizard list, instead of just making him a wizard clone. Considering how he's limited on spells known, and learns spells one class level later, wouldn't be too bad. And having his spellcasting based on Cha, unlike the wizard and cleric, it would make a nice flavoring. (though favored souls wouldn't fit a campaign world with this sort of sorcerer).
For quicks, increase his hit dice for d6, and give him at least +1 spell known for each spell level.

Edit: Darn ninjas.

That sorcerer variant looks pretty nice (funny I had the same idea). Anyway if anyone wants they could try this: Dual-Classing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138173). It allows a sort of Mystic Theurge.