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taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:22 PM
I want to know if there is a spell that uses someone's soul as a material component; or has other material component that can be used offensively.
I trust WOTC to have made such a colossal bung up... (since material components are "consumed" irrevocably and instant and with no save or anything, it is the ideal way to destroy things).
It doesn't have to a soul, it can be a weapon, a magic item, armor, etc... anything that might be of value...

So, am I right in assuming WOTC made such a spell? or do they pleasantly surprised by them not making such a mistake?

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:23 PM
Apocalypse of the sky requires a good artifact, and souls can be used as optional power components (but only once they are already harvested). Both are in BoVD.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-15, 05:25 PM
I want to know if there is a spell that uses someone's soul as a material component; or has other material component that can be used offensively.
I trust WOTC to have made such a colossal bung up... (since material components are "consumed" irrevocably and instant and with no save or anything, it is the ideal way to destroy things).
It doesn't have to a soul, it can be a weapon, a magic item, armor, etc... anything that might be of value...

So, am I right in assuming WOTC made such a spell? or do they pleasantly surprised by them not making such a mistake?

Giant's Wrath consumed pebbles as material component (which are then used up so what do you throw?).

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-15, 05:26 PM
The Ironwood spell eats up whatever wooden item you were wanting to transmute, so when the spell duration ends, it goes "poof" altogether.

Ravens_cry
2010-02-15, 05:27 PM
Giant's Wrath consumed pebbles as material component (which are then used up so what do you throw?). A boulder pops into existence, same as the flame that makes up the fire ball when you sacrifice some bat guano and sulphur.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-15, 05:27 PM
You give WotC too much credit. I doubt they are aware that material components are used up upon casting the spell.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:30 PM
Apocalypse of the sky requires a good artifact, and souls can be used as optional power components (but only once they are already harvested). Both are in BoVD.

awesome! forget mt. doom, lets use the artifact as a material component :P


Giant's Wrath consumed pebbles as material component (which are then used up so what do you throw?).

interesting... but I can't think of a time where you would want to destroy a pebble...
unless...
flesh to stone turns a fleshy creature and all his carried gear (even artifacts?) into stone, that person is still alive.
shrink item turns that statue into a pebble
giant's wrath destroys said pebble... potentially prevent resurrection (soul also gone?) and is a great way to destroy artifact (put ring on pig, flesh to stone on pug, etc)


The Ironwood spell eats up whatever wooden item you were wanting to transmute, so when the spell duration ends, it goes "poof" altogether.

mmm... can you use it on a druid's wooden armor/shield? what about treeants?


You give WotC too much credit. I doubt they are aware that material components are used up upon casting the spell.

some of their writers are certainly confused about that point.

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-15, 05:35 PM
BoVD made it so you can use a soul as a material component for any spell.

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:36 PM
awesome! forget mt. doom, lets use the artifact as a material component :P

Its a 9th level spell with obscene costs to the caster (1d3 wisdom damage to prepare, 4d6 wisdom drain and 3d6 constitution damage to cast) so not a good idea to do so without someway of regaining lost states faster.

Edit: Doesn't even require a good artifact, just an artifact. Good heores definatly got the shaft when needing to destroy an artifact.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:38 PM
Its a 9th level spell with obscene costs to the caster (1d3 wisdom damage to prepare, 4d6 wisdom drain and 3d6 constitution damage to cast) so not a good idea to do so without someway of regaining lost states faster.

alright... what about the flesh to stone method I listed above for destroying artifacts?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 05:38 PM
There was a spell that used the armor of a moderately high level warrior as a component, IIRC.

Im sure there's abuse potential there.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-15, 05:38 PM
Its a 9th level spell with obscene costs to the caster (1d3 wisdom damage to prepare, 4d6 wisdom drain and 3d6 constitution damage to cast) so not a good idea to do so without someway of regaining lost states faster.

That's what Naberius is for. Also, note that even with this, it still makes it insanely easy and much less risky than using a Disjunction to try to destroy an artifact. As written, since it is a material component, there's no save or the like.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 05:39 PM
Its a 9th level spell with obscene costs to the caster (1d3 wisdom damage to prepare, 4d6 wisdom drain and 3d6 constitution damage to cast) so not a good idea to do so without someway of regaining lost states faster.

Edit: Doesn't even require a good artifact, just an artifact. Good heores definatly got the shaft when needing to destroy an artifact.

It destroys a city though, IIRC. Which strikes me as being completely worth the stat drain.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:39 PM
There was a spell that used the armor of a moderately high level warrior as a component, IIRC.

Im sure there's abuse potential there.

Imagine the look the DM's face when the wizard says he is gonna grapple the BBEG warrior...
And then when you use said spell and poof away his armor :P


That's what Naberius is for. Also, note that even with this, it still makes it insanely easy and much less risky than using a Disjunction to try to destroy an artifact. As written, since it is a material component, there's no save or the like.

no save, and no risk of losing your spellcasting forever.
to hell with trekking to mount doom.

as for it being an evil spell... a wizard can cast it for "the greater good"... he would be neutral at worst.
And if you target it at a "city" of "non sentient ants" or other creative interpretations of a "city"...

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 05:40 PM
Its a 9th level spell with obscene costs to the caster (1d3 wisdom damage to prepare, 4d6 wisdom drain and 3d6 constitution damage to cast) so not a good idea to do so without someway of regaining lost states faster.

Edit: Doesn't even require a good artifact, just an artifact. Good heores definatly got the shaft when needing to destroy an artifact.

The 3.5 Updates changed it to a Focus.


Imagine the look the DM's face when the wizard says he is gonna grapple the BBEG warrior...
And then when you use said spell and poof away his armor :P


You can do that with a Core spell, remember?

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:41 PM
That's what Naberius is for. Also, note that even with this, it still makes it insanely easy and much less risky than using a Disjunction to try to destroy an artifact. As written, since it is a material component, there's no save or the like.

Naberous means a level dip, and you still only recover 1 point of drain per hour. Restoration would be better, but it requires someone else. Also, it should be noted that in the section corrupt magic it states that corrupt spells have no material component, and apocalypse of the sky does not directly address this point.


The 3.5 Updates changed it to a Focus.

There's an official update for BoVD, I thought there was just a voluntary one? Or was the spell reprinted somewhere else?

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:42 PM
question, what about spells that don't specify the SIZE of the material component?

it uses "limestone"... ok, I use this mountain of limestone as the material component...
or it uses "guano", ok... I cleaned all the crap from the stables... instantly :P

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:45 PM
as for it being an evil spell... a wizard can cast it for "the greater good"... he would be neutral at worst.
And if you target it at a "city" of "non sentient ants" or other creative interpretations of a "city"...

Everything within 10 miles / caster level takes 10d6 damage. Everything.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:47 PM
Everything within 10 miles / caster level takes 10d6 damage. Everything.

bring an ant farm to the arctic... congrats, you destroyed a city of ants and a lot of ice in a 10 mile radius.
and the artifact material component.

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:50 PM
bring an ant farm to the arctic... congrats, you destroyed a city of ants and a lot of ice in a 10 mile radius.
and the artifact material component.

Why do you need the ants? And I hope you feel proud about yourself for helping global warming.

AstralFire
2010-02-15, 05:53 PM
I don't think "anything that can't be screwed up by any DM with half-a-brain" is a "colossal bung-up." Polymorph Any Object is a much better example of something that can't be stopped with extremely casual RAI. :P

taltamir
2010-02-15, 05:54 PM
Why do you need the ants? And I hope you feel proud about yourself for helping global warming.

I am VERY proud of myself. I am proud to cause global warming. Mostly by breathing and farting!

You need ants because the target is "a city" (or so I thought)... otherwise forget about the ants.

you do realize that releasing said energy in the desert, arctic, or underwater contributes equally to the global temperature? and besides, there is the law of conservation of energy, and warming is actually good for the economy. And... so on and so forth :P

Boci
2010-02-15, 05:56 PM
You need ants because the target is "a city" (or so I thought)... otherwise forget about the ants.

Nope, you might be confusing it with the locate city bomb (and even that doesn't require a city).

Kish
2010-02-15, 05:59 PM
Considering the lack of modern technology in most D&D worlds, I doubt global warming is a concern. If it started to become one, Wish would probably fix it.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-15, 05:59 PM
Why do you need the ants? And I hope you feel proud about yourself for helping global warming.Is the damage untyped? If the damage has a type I'm sure there's a place a level 17+ caster could go where no one would be hurt. All else fails, genesis!

Boci
2010-02-15, 06:00 PM
Is the damage untyped? If the damage has a type I'm sure there's a place a level 17+ caster could go where no one would be hurt. All else fails, genesis!

The catser chooses between fire, acid or sonic so yes they could just go to the elemental plain of fire.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 06:00 PM
This thread started out on a great note. "I trust WOTC". :smallbiggrin:

taltamir
2010-02-15, 06:03 PM
interesting... but I can't think of a time where you would want to destroy a pebble...
unless...
flesh to stone turns a fleshy creature and all his carried gear (even artifacts?) into stone, that person is still alive.
shrink item turns that statue into a pebble
giant's wrath destroys said pebble... potentially prevent resurrection (soul also gone?) and is a great way to destroy artifact (put ring on pig, flesh to stone on pug, etc)

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about this method? does it work? would an artifact really be destroyed by flesh to stone, shrink item, and giant's wrath?

Animefunkmaster
2010-02-15, 06:04 PM
A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it.

I am not entirely sure a dm will allow your grapple attempt to cause you to "posses" someone else's items they may be carrying.

Likewise you might not posses a mountain of guano.

Also cleaning up messes: prestidigitation? breaking objects: (Dispell magic+) Shatter?

The spell that uses a bit of equipment from a fighter is Heroics in SpC.

Mando Knight
2010-02-15, 06:06 PM
Polymorph Any Object is a much better example of something that can't be stopped with extremely casual RAI. :P

Human Sorcerer needs some defense, has 12 Int and around 10 Dex. Boom, new Green dragon. On top of 10 natural armor, he gets good Strength, high movement speeds, a fly speed, a swim speed, and Water Breathing. Duration? Permanent (+5 same kingdom, +2 same size, +2 same/lower Int for +9).

Boci
2010-02-15, 06:08 PM
Doesn't anyone have anything to say about this method? does it work? would an artifact really be destroyed by flesh to stone, shrink item, and giant's wrath?

There is no RAW on the issue in the DMG, just the vague recomendation that major artifacts should have only 1 way of being destroyed, then list some examples.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 06:08 PM
Doesn't anyone have anything to say about this method? does it work? would an artifact really be destroyed by flesh to stone, shrink item, and giant's wrath?

They might argue about the shape. In which case, you use Stone Shape.

Should work.

CTLC
2010-02-15, 06:14 PM
I thought there was an epicly ridiculous spell to destroy an artifact, but you can of course use the artifact as a component in a different spell.

right, mages disjunction has a 1% chance to destroy an artifact. But you can use it as a component.
what are the rules to use something as a component?

lesser_minion
2010-02-15, 06:21 PM
I know Games Workshop did.

WFRP 1st edition had a spell called "Glowing Light" which had as a component 'any object'. Which disappeared at the end of the spell.

I don't think I've seen anyone make the mistake quite so blatantly since then.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 06:29 PM
I thought there was an epicly ridiculous spell to destroy an artifact, but you can of course use the artifact as a component in a different spell.

right, mages disjunction has a 1% chance to destroy an artifact. But you can use it as a component.
what are the rules to use something as a component?

disjunction has a 1% chance per CL to destroy an artifact, AND has a chance of causing you to lose ALL spellcasting powers FOREVER if you succeed.
Using it as a component is a much safer method.


There is no RAW on the issue in the DMG, just the vague recomendation that major artifacts should have only 1 way of being destroyed, then list some examples.

but, disjunction explicitly contradicts that.

AstralFire
2010-02-15, 06:32 PM
Human Sorcerer needs some defense, has 12 Int and around 10 Dex. Boom, new Green dragon. On top of 10 natural armor, he gets good Strength, high movement speeds, a fly speed, a swim speed, and Water Breathing. Duration? Permanent (+5 same kingdom, +2 same size, +2 same/lower Int for +9).

That's my point. I don't think spell components falls in nearly the same category.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 06:35 PM
That's my point. I don't think spell components falls in nearly the same category.

yes, alright I was just being overly melodramatic... its not as bad as PAO or many other "the broken TM". But it is fairly bad.

erikun
2010-02-15, 06:37 PM
flesh to stone turns a fleshy creature and all his carried gear (even artifacts?) into stone, that person is still alive.
shrink item turns that statue into a pebble
giant's wrath destroys said pebble... potentially prevent resurrection (soul also gone?) and is a great way to destroy artifact (put ring on pig, flesh to stone on pug, etc)
Flesh to Stone > Stone to Mud > add water > Purify Food and Drink will "destroy" a statue as well. It's up to the DM if this kills the person (thus releasing their soul to the afterlife) or simply leaves them in a state of perpetual undestroyed petrification.

Also, if you want to get technical, a tiny stone statue is not a pebble. It would be closer to a figurine, and it certainly wouldn't act like a pebble aerodynamically.

Attempting to destroy an artifact is generally difficult. In the biggest cases, standard magic wouldn't even work on it, so you'd have a pig statue wearing a perfectly whole ring. In other cases, it might "work", but you might be wary of what happens when your DM determines that the artifact has been "destroyed".

In either case, I wouldn't bet on getting rid of the One Ring that way.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 06:41 PM
well, you could argue that the remaining water ARE the statue. you have effectively transformed a person and their gear into a puddle of water.

as for a figurine not being a statue. Tyr pointed that out and said you can use shape stone to turn it from a figurine to a pebble.

RandomNPC
2010-02-15, 06:56 PM
Human Sorcerer needs some defense, has 12 Int and around 10 Dex. Boom, new Green dragon. On top of 10 natural armor, he gets good Strength, high movement speeds, a fly speed, a swim speed, and Water Breathing. Duration? Permanent (+5 same kingdom, +2 same size, +2 same/lower Int for +9).

dragons, scale covered, elemental breathing winged quadrapeds, are the same as bipedial hair growing humans? dood!

screw spells, WOTC needs a biology class.

Ravens_cry
2010-02-15, 06:58 PM
Flesh to Stone > Stone to Mud > add water > Purify Food and Drink will "destroy" a statue as well. .
I don't think that would work. Stone to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuterocktomud.htm) says: "This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud" I think a statue counts as worked stone, and a magically made statue is hardly 'natural'.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 07:42 PM
dragons, scale covered, elemental breathing winged quadrapeds, are the same as bipedial hair growing humans? dood!

screw spells, WOTC needs a biology class.

First, WOTC desperately needs a biology class, and physics, and chemistry... heck, elementary school "science" class would do them a world of good..

Second, of course they are not the same, if they were they would be a +13 not a +9 to duration... but anything 9 or above gets to be equally permanent.

{table]Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral)|+5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.)|+2
Same size|+2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.)|+2
Same or lower Intelligence|+2[/table]

Lets go over the list one by one:
Same kingdom? yes, they are both animals. +5 duration points
Same class? no, humans are mammals, dragons are reptiles.
Same Size? yes, you are polymorphing into a medium sized green dragon. +2 duration points
Related? no, there is absolutely no relationship between humans and dragons (as you have pointed out).
Same or lower intelligence? yes, green dragons are not very intelligent, and you are a wizard so you are. +2 duration points.

Total duration points: 5+2+2 (+5 same kingdom, +2 same size, +2 same/lower Int for +9). = 9.
Duration of spell? if 9 or above duration points have been acquired, then duration is permanent.

lesser_minion
2010-02-15, 07:46 PM
First, WOTC desperately needs a biology class, and physics, and chemistry... heck, elementary school "science" class would do them a world of good..

Second, of course they are not the same, if they were they would be a +13 not a +9 to duration... but anything 9 or above gets to be equally permanent.

{table]Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral)|+5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.)|+2
Same size|+2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.)|+2
Same or lower Intelligence|+2[/table]

Lets go over the list one by one:
Same kingdom? yes, they are both animals. +5 duration points
Same class? no, humans are mammals, dragons are reptiles.
Same Size? yes, you are polymorphing into a medium sized green dragon. +2 duration points
Related? no, there is absolutely no relationship between humans and dragons (as you have pointed out).
Same or lower intelligence? yes, green dragons are not very intelligent, and you are a wizard so you are. +2 duration points.

Total duration points: 5+2+2 (+5 same kingdom, +2 same size, +2 same/lower Int for +9). = 9.
Duration of spell? if 9 or above duration points have been acquired, then duration is permanent.

And your intelligence just dropped through the floor.

But yes, the idea of a 'kingdom' being 'animal, vegetable, mineral...' amuses me. Animals and plants, sure, but minerals?

The ridiculous durations are ridiculous, however.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 07:48 PM
And your intelligence just dropped through the floor.

true, that is the biggest drawback. You want to find one that has the exact same int as you.
Luckily there are a metric buttload of dragons out there.. so finding one who has an int score equal to your own shouldn't be too hard.

actually it is better for a sorcerer... you keep your wisdom and cha score. You get the new form's int score.
choose one that has an int of 8, 10, or 12 as appropriate for your sorcerer.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

Assuming you go with the "a second cast of PAO uses your base stats to determine duration" (aka, you cant PAO into a greatwyrm with 12 hour duration and then PAO again into the exact same great wyrm with a permanent duration because you are already one).
then I would just stick to using PAO every 12 hours to keep yourself as a greatwyrm of choice. Your int actually goes UP even as a wizard if you choose the right dragon type.

it is better to play an aasimar and get PAO into a solar (which will be permanent)

Quincunx
2010-02-16, 06:34 AM
bring an ant farm to the arctic... congrats, you destroyed a city of ants and a lot of ice in a 10 mile radius.
and the artifact material component.

Does anyone else get the mental image of taltamir as Charlton Heston as Moses, holding aloft the flat glass slab of the ant farm in the craggy and snow-bound wilderness, and then crack-kathoom, there's a whole lotta smiting going on? . . .Anyone?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 07:05 AM
interesting... but I can't think of a time where you would want to destroy a pebble...
unless...
flesh to stone turns a fleshy creature and all his carried gear (even artifacts?) into stone, that person is still alive.
shrink item turns that statue into a pebble
giant's wrath destroys said pebble... potentially prevent resurrection (soul also gone?) and is a great way to destroy artifact (put ring on pig, flesh to stone on pug, etc)


I believe artifacts get saves vs shrink item (will negates) at least if they are intelligent ones. But otherwise this method works.

BTW- You need a handful of pebbles. You have to throw it at someone. Just dropping it won't harm the pebble it says.

lord_khaine
2010-02-16, 09:02 AM
dragons, scale covered, elemental breathing winged quadrapeds, are the same as bipedial hair growing humans? dood!

screw spells, WOTC needs a biology class.

Its actualy you who need a biologi class here, or at least 5 min to look up animal kingdom on wikipedia...


Does anyone else get the mental image of taltamir as Charlton Heston as Moses, holding aloft the flat glass slab of the ant farm in the craggy and snow-bound wilderness, and then crack-kathoom, there's a whole lotta smiting going on? . . .Anyone?

Not really, to start with the sillyness of the art farm comes from a incorrect idea regarding that the spell have to target a city, it doesnt.

Also, i think most people fail to realise just how destructive this spell is, with a radius of 200 miles, you can blast a entire country to ruins, and if you manage to combine it with either fell drain or fell animate, then its suddenly welcome to your own zombie apocalypse.

Ormagoden
2010-02-16, 09:07 AM
There was a spell that used the armor of a moderately high level warrior as a component, IIRC.

Im sure there's abuse potential there.

Here Redgar put this padded armor on, Here Redgar now put this padded armor on, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 09:09 AM
I want to know if there is a spell that uses someone's soul as a material component; or has other material component that can be used offensively.
I trust WOTC to have made such a colossal bung up... (since material components are "consumed" irrevocably and instant and with no save or anything, it is the ideal way to destroy things).
It doesn't have to a soul, it can be a weapon, a magic item, armor, etc... anything that might be of value...

So, am I right in assuming WOTC made such a spell? or do they pleasantly surprised by them not making such a mistake?

There are, as many have said, ways to consume souls. WotC did realise the implications, though, and doing this is a terribly evil act.

Kris Strife
2010-02-16, 09:10 AM
Keep in mind, by biology, True dragons are the same species as everything. :smalltongue:

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-16, 10:01 AM
...if you manage to combine it with either fell drain or fell animate, then its suddenly welcome to your own zombie apocalypse.Doable, thanks to Divine Metamagic. See if you can throw in one of those metamagic feats (DMM it, of course) that lets you play with/increase the area, for added lulz.

Douglas
2010-02-16, 10:22 AM
Imagine the look the DM's face when the wizard says he is gonna grapple the BBEG warrior...
And then when you use said spell and poof away his armor :P
No, no, do it with True Resurrection. Find a bad guy who uses dragonhide armor, cast True Resurrection before the fight, hold the charge, and touch his armor in combat. Poof, no more dragonhide armor, and now there's suddenly a fully healed dragon in the fight who is very angry at him and very grateful to you.

Tiki Snakes
2010-02-16, 10:37 AM
No, no, do it with True Resurrection. Find a bad guy who uses dragonhide armor, cast True Resurrection before the fight, hold the charge, and touch his armor in combat. Poof, no more dragonhide armor, and now there's suddenly a fully healed dragon in the fight who is very angry at him and very grateful to you.

That is kind of amusing.:smallsmile:

taltamir
2010-02-16, 11:47 AM
Does anyone else get the mental image of taltamir as Charlton Heston as Moses, holding aloft the flat glass slab of the ant farm in the craggy and snow-bound wilderness, and then crack-kathoom, there's a whole lotta smiting going on? . . .Anyone?

thanks, thats pretty awesome imagery actually :P

And even if the spell does not call for an ant farm, i'd still use one... because I can!

ScionoftheVoid
2010-02-16, 03:51 PM
This thread started out on a great note. "I trust WOTC". :smallbiggrin:

Well releasing things which are not edited and haven't been checked against the existing rules is one of the few things WotC can be trusted to do.

In answer to an earlier post, most spells do not specify the quantity of the component needed. The few that do tend to use terms such as "a pinch".

taltamir
2010-02-16, 03:57 PM
Well releasing things which are not edited and haven't been checked against the existing rules is one of the few things WotC can be trusted to do.

In answer to an earlier post, most spells do not specify the quantity of the component needed. The few that do tend to use terms such as "a pinch".

does enlarging yourself increase what a "pinch" is?