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Kylarra
2010-02-15, 11:12 PM
So from the Awesome non-gamebreaking PrCs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141986) thread, we got derailed into a discussion about PrCs that were pretty much just "better" versions of their base classes, examples

Druid - Planar Shepherd
Cleric - RSoP (traditional healbot)
Wizard - Loremaster, Incantrix, MotAO, Tainted Scholar

These are PrCs you just sort of qualify for nearly by default if you tend either towards the iconic or with minimal effort, and as a result you gain extra abilities in addition to your normal ones.

Just curious what other PrCs people feel fall into this category, and how people view PrCs like this from a design standpoint (obviously we all know planar shepherd is broken, and while loremaster technically qualifies, the abilities granted are pretty minor).

Doc Roc
2010-02-15, 11:14 PM
Incantatrix
Mage of the Arcane Order
Frenzied Berserker

Xenogears
2010-02-15, 11:15 PM
Frenzied Berserker

I disagree with this one. You trade power for uncontrallability. It's a legitimate trade-off.

Kylarra
2010-02-15, 11:19 PM
Incantatrix
Mage of the Arcane Order
Frenzied BerserkerI was going to disagree with incantrix, but heck, I put RSoP and pretty much no one bans Abj anyway.

MotAO is a good one for wizards, I agree.

FB I don't know enough about honestly, I rarely play meatsticks.

jokey665
2010-02-15, 11:20 PM
I disagree with this one. You trade power for uncontrallability. It's a legitimate trade-off.

You don't need to be in control when everything other than you is dead.

Xenogears
2010-02-15, 11:28 PM
You don't need to be in control when everything other than you is dead.

Your party might care about the whole being bloody smears on your great-axe thing.

DarknessLord
2010-02-15, 11:43 PM
There is some Bard PrC in an issue of Dragon, which advances everything but Bardic knowledge (which still advances for knowing about funeral rites), and gets bonuses vs undead on top of that.
Mourner, from 311,
Just need knowledge religion as well as perform and diplomacy.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-15, 11:45 PM
Bear Warrior: the only noteworthy requirement is Power Attack, which practically every barbarian takes anyway.

Divine Oracle: easier to qualify for than Loremaster.

Church Inquisitor: not only minimal effort to qualify, but minimal effort to qualify early.

Horizon Walker: costs a ranger 8 skill points.

Assassin: rogues probably have the requisite skills anyway, and the rest is alignment and fluff.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-15, 11:49 PM
Divine Oracle: easier to qualify for than Loremaster.
But, IIRC, you waste a feat that you don't get back for free (unlike Loremaster).



Church Inquisitor: not only minimal effort to qualify, but minimal effort to qualify early.


I agree. Very much so.

Pluto
2010-02-15, 11:51 PM
But, IIRC, you waste a feat that you don't get back for free (unlike Loremaster).
Mushroom Ninja, meet the Frog God's Fane (CS).

drengnikrafe
2010-02-15, 11:51 PM
I would offer that Assassin is not necessarily better than strait Rogue because you give up the rogue's special abilities, and trades them for poison use, which isn't very useful at all.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-02-15, 11:52 PM
I have to disagree with Loremaster being on the list of "strictly better," as there is some trade off in the feat department.

It's not Incantatrix levels of power, but I'm inclined to throw Master Specialist down as strictly better than wizard after level 5ish. The fact that you can qualify at 3rd level at the latest also helps.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-15, 11:53 PM
I would offer that Assassin is not necessarily better than strait Rogue because you give up the rogue's special abilities, and trades them for poison use, which isn't very useful at all.

Which you can make up with spells, seriously Assassins get some really nice spells.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-15, 11:55 PM
I have to disagree with Loremaster being on the list of "strictly better," as there is some trade off in the feat department.


Not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm#secret)

Wings of Peace
2010-02-16, 12:20 AM
Manifesters: Subverted Psion

Arcanists: Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer

Crow
2010-02-16, 12:25 AM
Which you can make up with spells, seriously Assassins get some really nice spells.

And you can still UMD like a straight rogue.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-16, 12:26 AM
Manifesters: Subverted Psion

Arcanists: Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer

Hrrm? Are you normally picking up lots of taint by default?

Pluto
2010-02-16, 12:28 AM
Which you can make up with spells, seriously Assassins get some really nice spells.

40 skill points and 3 special abilities are a considerable tradeoff for Assassin abilities. The Assassin may or may not come out ahead, but there a non-trivial distinction between the two.

Sacred Exorcist

That one Frostburn Cleric

Any full casting PrC that the Sorcerer can enter.

I want to say Fist of Zuoken, but the Monk does technically lose things.

Ronin.

Maybe Blackguard. Depends what you think about alignment.

And isn't the BoED filled with this sort of class?

Wings of Peace
2010-02-16, 12:33 AM
Hrrm? Are you normally picking up lots of taint by default?

Taint is not that difficult to come by. I can just sit in a tainted location for all that it matters.

tyckspoon
2010-02-16, 01:29 AM
Hrrm? Are you normally picking up lots of taint by default?

If you are a Tainted Scholar, yes- you gain taint for casting a spell. You can spend your off-days casting Light on a small pebble over and over to ratchet your taint score up to whatever you want (in the Heroes of Horror version, you just get Depravity for that. It's a little bit harder to adjust your Corruption score, which makes it slightly less broken than the OGL Arcana version.)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-02-16, 01:44 AM
I disagree with this one. You trade power for uncontrallability. It's a legitimate trade-off.

Control may be a big problem before you bring in other abilities or party members, but there are enough ways to either render the FB harmless until the effect wears off or let him make the save to snap out of it that you can mitigate the party-killer issue.


If you are a Tainted Scholar, yes- you gain taint for casting a spell. You can spend your off-days casting Light on a small pebble over and over to ratchet your taint score up to whatever you want (in the Heroes of Horror version, you just get Depravity for that. It's a little bit harder to adjust your Corruption score, which makes it slightly less broken than the OGL Arcana version.)

Actually, it's not at all hard to gain corruption, unless you've banned Conjuration (and no tainted scholar is unoptimized enough to do that!). Summon or call yourself up a taint elemental and order it to continually touch you—even a Small taint elemental deals 1 corruption to anything that touches it with each attack, and it's 2 HD, so easily callable with lesser planar binding.

Kylarra
2010-02-16, 02:22 AM
Control may be a big problem before you bring in other abilities or party members, but there are enough ways to either render the FB harmless until the effect wears off or let him make the save to snap out of it that you can mitigate the party-killer issue.I'll comment on other things tomorrow, but I just wanted to throw out that as far as my definitions go, the fact that there is a problem with control means that it's not a strictly greater class, as it brings in new weaknesses in exchange for its power. I'm sure it does indeed represent an overall power bump, but that's not what I'm looking for here.

The idea is a class that effectively advances the same class features as the base class while providing additional powers, without needing to jump through extensive hoops to qualify. Ideally any [feat] requirements are either already decent for the class in question or are refunded in the way of class features.

Also yeah, I should've put tainted scholar up there due to ridiculousness.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 02:24 AM
Manifesters: Subverted Psion

Arcanists: Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer

Tainted Scholar, certainly. It's ludicrously easy to qualify for, and builds on your spellcasting with Tainted Spellcasting (aka I Never Run Out Of Spells And You Never Save Against Them).

Also, Soulbow.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:49 AM
Horizon Walker: costs a ranger 8 skill points.

It's easy to enter, yes, but it doesn't exactly advance Ranger features, so I'd say it's far from an automatic choice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 02:53 AM
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Okay, some feat requirements, but the same as Archmage anyways... and damn, look at the power

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 08:25 AM
Loremaster and Sacred Exorcist definitely count. Loremaster refunds your feat, Sacred Exorcist... costs nothing.

All Tattooed Monk gives up is Quivering Palm - that's it. With the right tattoos, you can get everything else, including poison/disease immunity, spell resistance, stop aging penalties, and even the healing. And of course, you keep the AC, Unarmed Strike and speed bonuses.

EDIT: They also give up Slow Fall - in exchange for hours/level Alter Self. Oh noes!

Cyclocone
2010-02-16, 08:55 AM
I have to disagree with Loremaster being on the list of "strictly better," as there is some trade off in the feat department.
Not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm#secret)

Yes really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#bonusFeats)

But, if Loremaster is in, I'll add Olin Gisir and Halruaan Elder as well, even if they're race-specific.


Having said that, I wonder if a Half-Elf with Human Heritage could go Wizard 7/Olin Gisir 8/Halruaan Elder 5... Spontaneous CL 40 Holy Words would be an awesome capstone.

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 09:49 AM
Hrrm? Are you normally picking up lots of taint by default?

Cast spells. 1/20 times you will automatically gain points of taint for doing so.

There are also some abilities in the class that add taint when you use them, I believe. I don't have my copy of HoH on me, but I believe one is a limited wish type of ability.

The Tainted Scholar gets taint for doing what it normally does and becomes more powerful for it.

Person_Man
2010-02-16, 10:13 AM
I disagree with this one. You trade power for uncontrallability. It's a legitimate trade-off.

I agree that Frenzied Berserker as written is not strictly better then Barbarian. This is especially true if you're willing to use alternate class features. In particular, Lion Totem (Pounce), Spell Sense (replaces Trapsense with a bonus to AC vs spells), and Street Fighter (bunch of different Charge related abilities) make the Barbarian a respectable Tier 4 class.

But on the opposite side of the arguement, I would say that a Frenzied Berserker who gets access to Iron Heart Surge (and promises not to use it to do anything but end his Frenzy when he needs to) no longer has to worry about any control issues. So a Barbarian 8/Warblade 2/Frenzied Berserker 10 is strictly better then a Barbarian 20 (even with all the variants), but that's sorta "cheating" within the context of this topic.

I would however say that Frostrager, Runescarred Berserker, Totem Rager, Bear Warrior, Black Blood Cultist, and Fist of the Forest are worthy of debate.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 10:15 AM
Incantatrix is not a strictly greater version. It requires adding a banned school.

Sure, this is usually a good trade, but this isn't strictly greater in the sense that say, loremaster is.

Tehnar
2010-02-16, 10:29 AM
Any casting prestige class that advances casting 100% of its levels should be considered a improvement to the base class.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 10:32 AM
Any casting prestige class that advances casting 100% of its levels should be considered a improvement to the base class.

Only if they don't trade off something significant.

Banned schools are a significant tradeoff, as are the lost spell slots by archmage, etc.

If it has full casting, and involves no significant investment, though...then yeah.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 10:39 AM
Only if they don't trade off something significant.

Banned schools are a significant tradeoff, as are the lost spell slots by archmage, etc.

Not to mention, having very poor entry requirements.

Fochlucan Lyrist is 10/10 bard and druid casting, but is generally considered sub-par, for instance.

Anarchic Initiate is famous for being a Wilder-focused PrC, but easier for Psions to enter, etc.

Kris Strife
2010-02-16, 10:42 AM
Grayguard for Paladins? You keep your alignment, gain the ability to harm the living with lay on hands, smite anything and you have the stick removed! You give up... Mount progression?

Eloel
2010-02-16, 10:46 AM
Shadowcraft Mage for illusionists?

the humanity
2010-02-16, 01:08 PM
Hellfire Warlock, IMO. the best thing about a Warlock is the constant run of relatively decent touch attacks. the ability to superboost them here and there is worth it.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:13 PM
Grayguard for Paladins? You keep your alignment, gain the ability to harm the living with lay on hands, smite anything and you have the stick removed! You give up... Mount progression?

Grey Guard is only 5/10 casting, so it's not always as good a trade as it appears at first.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-02-16, 02:02 PM
Not really. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm#secret)

That bonus feat covers Skill Focus: whatever and nothing else: you can only take each secret once, after all.

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 02:06 PM
Grey Guard is only 5/10 casting, so it's not always as good a trade as it appears at first.

Is Paladin casting really that worth it, though? I honestly tend to forget I have spells when I play a caster whose casting is not a primary ability.


That bonus feat covers Skill Focus: whatever and nothing else: you can only take each secret once, after all.

The other feats you take to meet the prerequisites are feats you'd take anyway. So net loss of 0. The two bonus feats you lose out on (that you'd gain from continuing wizard) are pretty much outweighed by the other secrets and bonuses the PrC gives.

Incidentally, each of those secrets is like taking a feat. So you get what amounts to your feat back as well as four bonus feats (but you can take their feat equivalent too since they stack, if it strikes your fancy), 2 bonus languages (effectively saving skill points), what amounts to Bardic Knowledge for free, Identify as an ex ability, legend lore or analyse dweomer 1/day, more skill points, full spellcasting.

You lose out on familiar advancement. Boo hoo.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-16, 02:10 PM
That bonus feat covers Skill Focus: whatever and nothing else: you can only take each secret once, after all.
But a Wizard starts with Scribe Scroll (an Item Creation feat), and Quicken Spell, at least, is pretty much a gimme for a Wizard. I find it hard to believe that there is any Wizard out there who cannot find another Item Creation or Metamagic feat that they want anyway. Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, these are all very good choices. And if you're going Loremaster, you don't have to worry over-much about other Feat pre-reqs, usually. Loremaster is incredibly easy for a Wizard to enter.

For a Sorcerer, not so much. Someone said "any full-casting PrC" is strictly better than the Sorcerer, but that's not necessarily true. The Loremaster's a pretty good example: Getting those 7 Divination spells hurts. So does getting the Feats, and the Skills. It's excruciating to try to qualify for Loremaster as a Sorcerer, especially if you consider how easy it is for a Wizard.

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-16, 02:11 PM
After Factotum 8 would Chameleon be a fair addition to this list?

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 02:23 PM
Is Paladin casting really that worth it, though? I honestly tend to forget I have spells when I play a caster whose casting is not a primary ability.

There are nice ones in Spell Compendium (e.g. Find the Gap - next attack becomes a touch attack - great with Power Attack + Smite Evil)

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 02:27 PM
There are nice ones in Spell Compendium (e.g. Find the Gap - next attack becomes a touch attack - great with Power Attack + Smite Evil)

Find the Gap is like wraith strike 1/rd for a couple rounds.

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 02:29 PM
There are nice ones in Spell Compendium (e.g. Find the Gap - next attack becomes a touch attack - great with Power Attack + Smite Evil)

I see. I don't usually look at spells like that unless I'm feeling like being beastly with an archivist.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:43 PM
After Factotum 8 would Chameleon be a fair addition to this list?

I personally vote "no." Chameleons have some great stuff, but most of my Factotum character concepts work better with more Factotum levels than they do with Chameleon.

Some of them aren't even [human] subtype, for example. :smalltongue:

Akal Saris
2010-02-16, 03:01 PM
Master Specialist for wizards is almost always a superior choice past 5th (and often past 3rd).

Dacia Brabant
2010-02-16, 03:06 PM
For martial adepts, the Eternal Blade PrC is so easy to qualify for it's almost automatic as long as you're willing to play some sort of elf, and is a big improvement over the already solidly Tier 3 Crusader 20. (The Warblade entry does give up some nice stuff so it probably doesn't count for this.)

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-16, 03:07 PM
Master Specialist for wizards is almost always a superior choice past 5th (and often past 3rd).

Wizards don't count because anything with full-casting + class features is just better than full-casting.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-16, 03:09 PM
After Factotum 8 would Chameleon be a fair addition to this list?

Probably not. Chameleon is a great (if not the best) PrC for Factotum, don't get me wrong, but it still involves a tradeoff.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 03:27 PM
Probably not. Chameleon is a great (if not the best) PrC for Factotum, don't get me wrong, but it still involves a tradeoff.

Chameleon 2 is a good addition to Warlock 12 as well, if you are making an item crafter...

Zom B
2010-02-16, 03:49 PM
Master Specialist for wizards is almost always a superior choice past 5th (and often past 3rd).

Ah, you beat me to it. I was just now skimming through to see if anyone had said this.

I mean, true it's Full Casting and benefits, but it also meets part of the flavor of this thread: Something you would have qualified for anyway without going out of your way.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:14 PM
For martial adepts, the Eternal Blade PrC is so easy to qualify for it's almost automatic as long as you're willing to play some sort of elf, and is a big improvement over the already solidly Tier 3 Crusader 20. (The Warblade entry does give up some nice stuff so it probably doesn't count for this.)

I honestly get the feeling that Iron Heart isn't supposed to be on that list. It makes no sense for an Elf prestige class.

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 04:19 PM
Iron Heart, White Raven, and Devoted Spirit all have the longsword as a favoured weapon. Elves are proficient with the longsword.

Diamond Mind doesn't, but it seems like a fairly "elfy" discipline.

Dacia Brabant
2010-02-16, 04:33 PM
Iron Heart, White Raven, and Devoted Spirit all have the longsword as a favoured weapon. Elves are proficient with the longsword.

Diamond Mind doesn't, but it seems like a fairly "elfy" discipline.

Diamond Mind also has the rapier, which is another elf weapon. I imagine the designer expected most people would put the required Weapon Focus in either of those two.

And I don't understand how Iron Heart makes no sense for an elven PrC. The Warblade fluff (and the sample character) makes them out to be the most likely to choose that path other than humans.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:34 PM
Diamond Mind also has the rapier, which is another elf weapon. I imagine the designer expected most people would put the required Weapon Focus in either of those two.

And I don't understand how Iron Heart makes no sense for elves. The Warblade fluff (and the sample character) makes them out to be the most likely to choose that path other than humans.

Then you're reading the fluff differently than I am. Stone dragon and Iron Heart always seemed Orcish to me, and Cannon Iron Heart belongs to Hobgoblins (a natural Elf enemy).

Diamond Mind is more Elven to me, despite being a Con-based style.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 04:35 PM
Then you're reading the fluff differently than I am. Stone dragon and Iron Heart always seemed Orcish to me, and Cannon Iron Heart belongs to Hobgoblins (a natural Elf enemy).

Diamond Mind is more Elven to me, despite being a Con-based style.

Call it "Wooden Heart" then, and hug a nearby tree whenever you ready your maneuvers. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:39 PM
Call it "Wooden Heart" then, and hug a nearby tree whenever you ready your maneuvers. :smalltongue:


You know I hate elves, right?

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 04:42 PM
You know I hate elves, right?

The "you" there was a general "you", not "Sinfire" - I should have been a bit more clear :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 04:46 PM
Some of the Iron Heart maneuvers do sound like they are all about parrying, dancing blades, precision, and so on.

When fighting an Iron Heart specialist, would their powers, used against you, "feel elfy" so to speak?

Dacia Brabant
2010-02-16, 04:48 PM
Then you're reading the fluff differently than I am. Stone dragon and Iron Heart always seemed Orcish to me, and Cannon Iron Heart belongs to Hobgoblins (a natural Elf enemy).

I know canonically it belongs to the hobbos, but Iron Heart always seemed like the Power of Hot Blood to me and, well perhaps I'm too influenced by The Silmarillion for my picture of elven warriors because outside of Gurren Lagann you won't find anyone more Hot Blooded than the likes of Feanor and his sons.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:49 PM
Some of the Iron Heart maneuvers do sound like they are all about parrying, dancing blades, precision, and so on.

When fighting an Iron Heart specialist would their powers, used against you, "feel elfy" so to speak?

Fixed comma abuse. And not really. Iron Heart feels more like Afro Samurai than Elf.

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 04:51 PM
I suppose there could be rivalries about who invented the style.

With elves and hobgoblins enmities being partly because of it- elves might say the hobgoblins learned it from a renegade elf, hobbos might claim the elves spied on them and stole their martial art.

Reshar learned it from the hobgoblins- but that doesn't mean they are the only group good at it.

Gorbash
2010-02-16, 07:29 PM
But a Wizard starts with Scribe Scroll (an Item Creation feat), and Quicken Spell, at least, is pretty much a gimme for a Wizard. I find it hard to believe that there is any Wizard out there who cannot find another Item Creation or Metamagic feat that they want anyway. Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, these are all very good choices.

/raises hand :smallbiggrin:

I'm really not a fan of metamagic. I hate it to spend higher lvl slots, even if it sometimes is worth the trade. The only one I'd consider taking is Extend Spell, but only if I could afford to take Metamagic School Focus, which I don't. And if you have 2 prestige classes (Earth Dreamer and Archmage) it's kinda hard to find spare feats to spend. So I'll just buy Lesser Rod of Quicken (wouldn't Quicken higher lvl slots anyway) and that's it. Not saying that EVERY wizard is like me, but there are those who aren't metamagic focused.

Item Creation is intentionally gimping yourself to spare some gold, so not worth taking... ever.

erikun
2010-02-16, 07:47 PM
How far are we taking this? Soulbow is strickly better than the Soulknife, but that's mainly in a "making a poor class useable" sort of way. The same goes for the psionic monks: Fist of Zuoken and Zerth Cenobite technically give up monk abilities, but more than make up for it by getting useful abilities.

Illithid Slayer (especially the generalist SRD Slayer) and Anarchic Initiate give up virtually nothing for their goodies, one manifester level for full BAB with the Slayer and one feat for a handful of goodies for the Initiate.