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magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 01:12 AM
In this thread, we take monsters from any book, and improve them to be more of a threat.

Let's take an example. I take the Adamantine Horror from the Monster Manual II. It's very powerful already, but has a couple of weaknesses. The first is its weak saves, the second is its +0 Concentration modifier, rendering it almost helpless if entangled.

Let's add two class levels of Monk to the Horror. Now it gets +3 to all saves, Wis bonus to AC, and Concentration as a class skill. It also gets to use the elite array for its ability scores, so we give it +4 to Charisma and Dexterity, and +2 to Intelligence and Wisdom. Since that array applies for all the racial hit dice as well, we can give it another skill maxed - which will, of course, be Concentration. Although it's a cross-class skill for the racial hit dice, it's not for Monk, so we can put 3 points into it at each of those levels, for a total rank of 15.

Now, as to feats. It's not a monster that relies on melee prowess, so we'll swap out most of those melee feats. We'll swap out Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder and Power Attack for Skill Focus (Concentration), Ability Focus (Implosion), Willing Deformity, Deformity (Gaunt), and Evil's Blessing. There's also a couple of free feats from Monk to assign, we'll take Improved Grapple and regain Combat Reflexes. Lastly, we get another feat for reaching 18 Hit Dice, which will be Open Minded to get 5 more skill points to pour into Concentration.

Just to top things off, we'll add the traits Aggressive and Focused.

Our new monster is:

Adamantine Horror, 2nd-Level Monk

Hit Dice: 16d10+2d8+10 (107 hp)
Initiative: +13
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 38 (+1 size, +7 Dex, +8 Wis, +13 natural, -1 Aggressive), touch 25, flat-footed 31
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+14
Attack: Razor saw +19 melee (2d10+7)
Full Attack: Razor saw +19/+14/+9 melee (2d10+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special attacks: Spell-like abilities
Special qualities: Construct traits, electricity immunity, evasion, linked mind, spell vulnerability, SR 22
Saves: Fort +8 (+15 with Evil's Blessing), Ref +15 (+22 with Evil's Blessing), Will +16 (+23 with Evil's Blessing)
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 25, Con -, Int 19, Wis 26, Cha 25
Skills: Balance +28, Climb +26, Jump +26, Hide +32, Move Silently +28, Concentration +24
Feats: Ability Focus (Implosion), Combat Reflexes, Deformity (Gaunt), Evil's Blessing, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Open Minded, Skill Focus (Concentration), Willing Deformity
Traits: Aggressive, Focused
Challenge Rating: 10

Spell-like abilities: At will - disintegrate (DC 23), implosion (DC 28), mage's disjunction (DC 26).

Tactics: Approach PCs while hidden (activate Evil's Blessing immediately before striking), use mage's disjunction followed by implosion. If PCs flee beyond the range of implosion, use disintegrate to destroy them while pursuing.





A definite improvement, I'm sure you'll agree. Now show me yours! :smallbiggrin:

Gnorman
2010-02-16, 01:22 AM
I can't quite tell if this is trolling or not.

It can use ninth level spells at will. Good spells. Broken spells. Maddeningly annoying entire-party-shutting-down spells. CR 10? Pfeh.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 01:24 AM
My personal favorite has always been an Advanced Gibbering Mouther with the Nonelite array. I'll stat it out if anyone wants, but it's at CR +2 but is far more dangerous for CR 7 than the original is for CR 5.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 01:39 AM
I can't quite tell if this is trolling or not.

It can use ninth level spells at will. Good spells. Broken spells. Maddeningly annoying entire-party-shutting-down spells. CR 10? Pfeh.

So can a normal Adamantine Horror at CR 9. I'm serious, it's in the Monster Manual II. It has only two weaknesses, low saves and an abysmal Concentration modifier. I mostly just removed those.

Zeal: Please do.

Tanaric
2010-02-16, 01:43 AM
So can a normal Adamantine Horror at CR 9. I'm serious, it's in the Monster Manual II. It has only two weaknesses, low saves and an abysmal Concentration modifier. I mostly just removed those.

There are people that actually use that book?

Oh, how I laugh.

drengnikrafe
2010-02-16, 01:43 AM
The question is... why? If you want to give your PCs less experience for more powerful foes... do it. If you want them to die, send things at them that cause the PCs to miss 95% of the time. Or drop heavy objects on them.

Taking monsters, and just busting them some more... it just can't lead to anything good.

Flickerdart
2010-02-16, 01:44 AM
I love the Murderjack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) (because of the name, it's an awesome name), but I'm just not sure they're murderous enough. Somebody want to fix that?

Gnorman
2010-02-16, 01:49 AM
So can a normal Adamantine Horror at CR 9. I'm serious, it's in the Monster Manual II. It has only two weaknesses, low saves and an abysmal Concentration modifier. I mostly just removed those.

The point is (Tanaric briefly brushed the issue above) is that MMII is probably the worst book of 3.5 when it comes to Challenge Rating assessments. Some are wildly under-assessed, some over-assessed. So the Adamantine Horror having a CR of 9 is just plain ridiculous. The average level nine party will be shafted horribly by the creature - even an optimized cleric will likely only have about a 50% chance of surviving its Implosion, to say nothing about classes that are neither Wis-based or have good Will save progression. It's a straight-up mistake on the developer's part. Don't ever, ever take MMII's CRs as canon.

I assumed that you knew that, and you were making a joke post about shoring up a few "weaknesses" in a creature that is generally considered to much more dangerous than its CR would signify.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 01:51 AM
The point is (Tanaric briefly brushed the issue above) is that MMII is probably the worst book of 3.5 when it comes to Challenge Rating assessments. Some are wildly under-assessed, some over-assessed. So the Adamantine Horror having a CR of 9 is just plain ridiculous. The average level nine party will be shafted horribly by the creature. It's a straight-up mistake on the developer's part. Don't ever, ever take MMII's CRs as canon.

I assumed that you knew that, and you were making a joke post about shoring up a few "weaknesses" in a creature that is generally considered to much more dangerous than its CR would signify.

Sort of. The thread isn't a joke though. Get to optimising monsters!

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 02:03 AM
I love the Murderjack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a) (because of the name, it's an awesome name), but I'm just not sure they're murderous enough. Somebody want to fix that?

Giving them fugue as a known spell and some ranks in Perform, plus DC boosters, could help. That spell is nasty.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 02:04 AM
And no one has yet mentioned non-associated levels? For shame...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 02:05 AM
And no one has yet mentioned non-associated levels? For shame...

Hey, I used a couple in the OP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 02:07 AM
Hey, I used a couple in the OP.

A couple of monk levels.

Take any critter, throw on some non-associated Cleric levels. Proceed to Win button.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 02:10 AM
A couple of monk levels.

Take any critter, throw on some non-associated Cleric levels. Proceed to Win button.

You need the monster to have a lot more HD than CR for that to work, I'll note, but yes.

So show us a full example!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 02:36 AM
You need the monster to have a lot more HD than CR for that to work, I'll note, but yes.

So show us a full example!

Okay...

what was the CR modifier for casting Awaken Undead on a Skeleton again? 20 HD for CR 8? Sounds like the perfect chassis for what I'm about to do.

Draz74
2010-02-16, 03:01 AM
I'm a fan of the Tarrasque re-writes that manage to make it an appropriate CR 20 threat by doing nothing but re-choosing Feats. Exchange some Toughnesses for Martial Study x3, Martial Stance, Shock Trooper, and a bunch of Incarnum stuff ... nice.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 03:02 AM
Whisperer in the Darkness


Size/Type: Large Aberration
Hit Dice: 8d8+64 (100 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (2 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 22 (+1 Dex, +12 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+15
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d2 +5) or spittle +6 ranged touch (1d6 acid plus blindness)
Full Attack: 6 bite +11 melee (1d2 +5) or spittle +6 ranged touch (1d6 acid plus blindness)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Gibbering, spittle, improved grab, blood drain, swallow whole, ground manipulation
Special Qualities: Amorphous, damage reduction 5/bludgeoning, darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +3, Will +7
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 12, Con 26, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 16
Feats: Ability Focus: Gibbering, Ability Focus: Spitty, Improved Natural Armor.
Challenge Rating: 7

Gibbering: Will DC 19

Spittle: Fort DC 24



Result: Large size makes Grapple via Improved Grab extremely dangerous. Gibbering's DC has gone up by 6 over the span of 2 CRs, making it far more dangerous and highly effective at creating panic and disorder in the crucial beginning rounds. Spittle's DC has gone up by 6 over the span of 2 CRs, making it a crippling and reliable free action Save Or Suck against one person every turn. Damage has gone up by a factor of five, and accuracy has gained much ground too. HP have more than doubled.


I've thrown this thing against two different parties, both ECL 7. Using Amorphous and Ground Manipulation, it can trigger the encounter in melee range. Both parties has massive difficulty against the Confusion, and neither could do enough damage or put it out of the fight before it had swallowed one, put another in critical, and blinded a third. Both parties lost members, and were forced into a scattered retreat.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 03:03 AM
Okay...

what was the CR modifier for casting Awaken Undead on a Skeleton again? 20 HD for CR 8? Sounds like the perfect chassis for what I'm about to do.

I don't believe Awaken Undead allows skeletons to gain class levels.


snip

I think there's a problem with your attributes. The Str adjustment of the mouther after size increase is +8, so you must have put in a 12. The Dex adjustment after size increase is +0, so you must have put in a 12. The Con adjustment after size increase is +16, so you must have put in a 10. The Int adjustment is -6, so you must have put in a 9 or 8. The Wis adjustment is +2, so you must have put in a 10. The Cha adjustment is +2, so you must have put in a 13 and then improved it by 1 at 8 HD.

In other words, it looks like you've used an array of 13, 12, 12, 10, 10, 8 - which isn't the nonelite array.

If I've screwed up, tell me.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 03:46 AM
I don't believe Awaken Undead allows skeletons to gain class levels.



I think there's a problem with your attributes. The Str adjustment of the mouther after size increase is +8, so you must have put in a 12. The Dex adjustment after size increase is +0, so you must have put in a 12. The Con adjustment after size increase is +16, so you must have put in a 10. The Int adjustment is -6, so you must have put in a 9 or 8. The Wis adjustment is +2, so you must have put in a 10. The Cha adjustment is +2, so you must have put in a 13 and then improved it by 1 at 8 HD.

In other words, it looks like you've used an array of 13, 12, 12, 10, 10, 8 - which isn't the nonelite array.

If I've screwed up, tell me.
13 in Cha, 12 in Str, 11 in Dex, 10 in Con, 9 in Wis, 8 in Int (but boosted by 1 AP from levelling)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 03:51 AM
I don't believe Awaken Undead allows skeletons to gain class levels. The SRD disagrees with you:


Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. A skeleton is reasonably humanoid in shape, and when awakened, is Intelligent.[/QUOTE]

Killer Angel
2010-02-16, 04:20 AM
There are people that actually use that book?

Oh, how I laugh.

MMII has a lot of good things in it. Only, you can't count on the listed CR.

Runestar
2010-02-16, 04:35 AM
I can't quite tell if this is trolling or not.

I believe this is a legitimate topic, just that his example stank.

Take a choker and slap on a few crusader or warblade lvs. Now you can spam 2 maneuvers each round. Crusader gets them back every 3 lvs, warblade renews them as an attack+swift.

12-headed hydra - give it robilar's gambit. Watch the fighter's jaw drop as he attacks it, and gets 12 retaliatory attacks in return.

There are some general guidelines I can think of.

Power throw lets you use str for to-hit rolls, great for giants. This can give them at least +8 to-hit when throwing rocks.

Any monster capable of qualifying for quicken SLA should always take it so you can cast a quickened SLA in addition to attacking. Now, a barbed devil can throw scorching rays while charging into battle.

Any monster with toughness should always swap it out for improved toughness (unless it has less than 3 HD).

Take multiattack/improved multiattack to let it attack with all its natural attacks at its highest bab.

Monsters with poor will saves can consider taking steadfast determination to add their con mod to will saves (a troll taking it gets +8 will). Insightful reflexes for the odd monster with a higher int than dex score (like the ethergaunts).

The best armour for each category is chainshirt, breastplate and fullplate respectively. The best 2-handed weapon is greatsword. Any monster using anything less should swap them in. For example, an ogre can replace its hide armour with either chainshirt or breastplate for better AC (and possibly a speed increase) and use a greatsword in place of a greatclub (dealing 3d6 over 2d8).

Leather armour/masterwork studded leather/mithral chainshirt has no ACP, don't hesitate to slap it on any monster not already wearing armour. A mindflayer with mithral chainshirt and steel shield improves its AC from a crappy 15 to a respectable 21.

Be on the lookout for feat trees that give monsters new attack routines. For example, a hill giant can take the 3-mountain style or combat brute feat tree. A balor or pit fiend can utilize flyby attack or rapid blitz for added mobility.

MIC is great as it introduces magic items which are cheap, and add fun options. Plus unlike potions, they stay around for your players to loot.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-16, 04:46 AM
MMII has a lot of good things in it. Only, you can't count on the listed CR.

Seconded. For undeads, IMHO, is a great book (Banshee, Famine Spirit, Death Knight).

There are super cool monsters like Hellfire Wyrm, Phoenix, and Spirit of the Land.

Simply, yeah,you have to wacth out on CRs sometimes..

Roc Ness
2010-02-16, 04:49 AM
VoP Mist Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20031226a) UA variant Druid 15 (CR 15 non-associated)

Dragon without cash, with no need for cash, no Wild shape because he becomes weaker with wild shape, greater speed and AC, all other goodies of Druid 15 for the same CR, and 15 extra dragon HD, ridiculous saves from 30 HD, ridiculous HP from 30 HD. Ridiculous amounts of feats and skills from 30 HD and VoP, ridiculous BaB from 30 HD. Ridiculous ability scores from VoP and HD increases.


Bonus if you extrapolate VoP for 30 HD.

Killer Angel
2010-02-16, 05:49 AM
Seconded. For undeads, IMHO, is a great book (Banshee, Famine Spirit, Death Knight).

There are super cool monsters like Hellfire Wyrm, Phoenix, and Spirit of the Land.


Yep.
Between my favourites, there are Runic guardian, Spell weaver, and obviously the Yugoloth!

Also the Moonrats for the idea (:smallredface:), but they need a lot of work to make them a realistic challenge for an investigative adventure.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 05:57 AM
13 in Cha, 12 in Str, 11 in Dex, 10 in Con, 9 in Wis, 8 in Int (but boosted by 1 AP from levelling)

Oh, you did make a mistake then.

Stats that are odd in the base monster had an 11 there without racial modifiers. So putting a 13 in Cha only gives a 15, putting 11 in Dex only gives 11 and putting 9 in Wis only gives 11.

Just pointing it out.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 06:40 AM
Oh, you did make a mistake then.

Stats that are odd in the base monster had an 11 there without racial modifiers. So putting a 13 in Cha only gives a 15, putting 11 in Dex only gives 11 and putting 9 in Wis only gives 11.

Just pointing it out.
Ah, right. Well, if you actually want to use it I'm sure you can work something out. I lost my old version, so this one was thrown together on the fly.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 07:25 AM
Ah, right. Well, if you actually want to use it I'm sure you can work something out. I lost my old version, so this one was thrown together on the fly.

Yeah. You'd probably still stick the 13 in Cha and add a point to get 16, and stick the 8 in Int (since Int can't drop below 3 by racial penalties, you might as well)

And probably keep the rest the same.

And incidentally, people, why was my original example bad? It gained a CR but got a large chunk of power by doing so, more than a CR's really worth. The fact that I started with a monster that's already broken doesn't change that.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-16, 07:32 AM
I've always been a fan of advancing shadows a couple of HD for flyby attack. That way they can begin and end their turns out of LoE of the PCs.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-16, 07:32 AM
Yep.
Between my favourites, there are Runic guardian, Spell weaver, and obviously the Yugoloth!

Also the Moonrats for the idea (:smallredface:), but they need a lot of work to make them a realistic challenge for an investigative adventure.

If the PCs does not have an idea, can really go mad with moonrats. Completely mad.

Didn't remember the Yugoloth - true, in MMII there are three Yugoloths that does not appear elsewere.

/derailment

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-16, 07:37 AM
The question is... why? If you want to give your PCs less experience for more powerful foes... do it. If you want them to die, send things at them that cause the PCs to miss 95% of the time. Or drop heavy objects on them.

Taking monsters, and just busting them some more... it just can't lead to anything good.
You're the goddamn Dungeon Master. They aren't "your" party, they're "the" party. They're the enemy! (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/4/)

Runestar
2010-02-16, 07:42 AM
Well, if you think your PCs are more optimized than the norm, it can't hurt to give your monsters a little boost.

Dungeonscape even advocates a similar move, like giving the carrion crawler hold the line to thwart chargers. :smallbiggrin:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-16, 07:55 AM
The question is... why? If you want to give your PCs less experience for more powerful foes... do it. If you want them to die, send things at them that cause the PCs to miss 95% of the time. Or drop heavy objects on them.

Taking monsters, and just busting them some more... it just can't lead to anything good.

It's the same sort of thing as TO. Because it's fun. Also, what Runestar said.

Runestar
2010-02-16, 08:02 AM
Granted, their key reason was to give monsters a new twist, nice vs players who think they already know every statblock in the MM by the back of their hand. Imagine their surprise when your balor is able to spring attack in melee and still make up to 3 attacks in the process. :smallcool:

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-16, 10:56 AM
(I'm only working with the SRD at the moment, so bear with me) Not sure how optimized it is, but it trades in its vulnerabilities for devastation at the cost of a +2 CR increase. If nothing else, it'll surprise the heck out of an adventuring party. Also, a level 5 or less cleric cannot turn it unless they're specced for turning higher HD:

Ghost Basilisk
Medium Undead

Hit Dice: 6d12 + 6 (45 hp)
Speed: Fly 30ft. (Perfect)
Initiative: -1
Armor Class: 18 (–1 Dex, +7 natural, +2 Deflection), touch 11, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+8
Attack Standard attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+3) or Draining Touch +5 melee touch (1d4 ability drain)
Full attack: Bite +8 melee (1d8+3) or Draining Touch +5 melee touch (1d4 ability drain)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Petrifying gaze, Corrupting Gaze, Draining Touch
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, rejuvanation, turn resist +4, Manifestation, Incorporeal
Saves Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +3
Abilities Str 15, Dex 8, Con -, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 15
Skills: Hide +8*, Listen +15, Search +4, Spot +15
Feats: Ability Focus (Petrifying Gaze), Ability Focus (Corrupting Gaze), Improved Toughness
Environment: Warm deserts
Organization: Solitary or blighted nest (1 Ghost, 1-3 Basilisk Skeletons and 1-3 Basilisk Zombies)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 7–10 HD (Medium); 11–18 HD (Large) (Possible advancement before Ghostification)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, range 30 feet; Fortitude DC 17 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Corrupting Gaze (Su): 2d10 points of damage and 1d4 points of Charisma damage, range of 30 feet; Fortitude DC 17 negates.

Draining Touch (Su): Melee touch attack (dex based). Touch deals 1d4 drain to the ability of the basislisk's choice (charisma most likely, to compound the corrupting gaze). Every time this hits, it heals the basilisk for 5 HP.

Skills: *The basilisk’s dull coloration and its ability to remain motionless for long periods of time grant it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in natural settings.

dspeyer
2010-02-16, 11:05 AM
Everybody loves swordsage. A couple great examples:

Elder elementals are cr 11 but have 24 hd. A single level of swordsage gets them IL 13 so 7th level maneuvers.

Wyrm White Dragons and cr 19 but have 33 hd. A single level of swordsage gets them IL 17 and 9th level maneuvers. Prerequisites probably mean they can only take one. I recommend Time Stands Still.