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Loki Eremes
2010-02-16, 04:59 AM
Hi guys, here's a build a friend of mine is coming up with. This fellow is trying to be a Mystic Theurge and is Trying to convince the DM to create a Feat that would allow earlier entrance to the PrC. He's doing this first to see how it feels to have THAT many options and spells and second to really see if this PrC is as sucky as everybody on the internet thinks.

This invented feat (Devoted Acolyte) would work just like Precoucious Learner from de Complete Arcane only that it works on Cleric and can be taken on the first level of Cleric as well. The feat may be something over the top, he admits it, but if he can manage that he believes he can get a rather powerfull character altough maybe only limited to doing magics.

He would go for battlefield control and is pondering about Arcane Thesis and its uses. Do you know exactly the way this works and how to really profit from it?

Here is the build


1- Wizard 1 Precocious learner Arcana 4/Religion 4
2- Wizard 2 Arcana 5/Religion 5
3- Cleric 1 Devoted Acolyte Arcana 6/Religion 6 -- MINIMUM RANKS ATTAINED, MINIMUM SPELLS ATTAINED. PRC ENTRY GUARANTEED
4- Mystic Theurge 1 - Wiz 3 Clr 2
5- Mystic Theurge 2 - Wiz 4 Clr 3
6- Mystic Theurge 3 - Wiz 5 Clr 4
7- Mystic Theurge 4 - Wiz 6 Clr 5
8- Mystic Theurge 5 - Wiz 7 Clr 6
9- Mystic Theurge 6 - Wiz 8 Clr 7
10- Mystic Theurge 7 - Wiz 9 Clr 8


FEATS HUMAN- Collegiate Wizard FLAW- Ext.Spell/1- Precocious Learner/3- Devoted Acolyte (homebrew feat)/6-Widen Spell/9-Acane Thesis?

This build goes up to 10th level to begin with and pretty much all books are open for material.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-16, 05:06 AM
It'll still be hard to balance between Wis and Int but it could be overcome. He should take True Necromancer for his next 10 levels. It's basically a re-fluffed Mystic Theurge and is from Libris Mortis.

Gnaritas
2010-02-16, 05:26 AM
see if this PrC is as sucky as everybody on the internet thinks.

If you allow early entry into Mystic Theurge it obviously becomes a lot better. Especially if you can start taking Theurge levels at level 4 instead of 7. The opinion of "the internet" is based on the level 7 entry, not including some homebrew feat.



He would go for battlefield control and is pondering about Arcane Thesis and its uses. Do you know exactly the way this works and how to really profit from it?

Arcane Thesis is most usefull if you have one particular spell you want to cast a lot, so you should try take a spell you can cast on both the Cleric and Wizard side (none i can think of right now, i bet there are several ways to accomplish this though).
You also need a lot of metamagic feats, which might become nasty, since you do not get any bonus feats and have a lot of feats already chosen.
My advise, forget about the feat for this character.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-16, 07:39 AM
I think a Sorc-2/ Favored Soul-1 Can do it. You'll need Education, Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell feats. Doable with a human or flaws.

I could be wrong though.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 08:30 AM
Sanctum spell? Spells cast within your sanctum take up the usual slot, but count as a level higher for all other purposes?

Allows you to enter MT with 2 levels of one class and one level of the other(your choice) due to skill requirements.

The other traditional optimization strat involves using Ur-priest as the divine side.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 08:31 AM
It also combines well with other theurges, like Arcane Heirophant and Eldritch Disciple.

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 09:24 AM
It'll still be hard to balance between Wis and Int but it could be overcome. He should take True Necromancer for his next 10 levels. It's basically a re-fluffed Mystic Theurge and is from Libris Mortis.


Ignore that bit of advice.

MT is generally a trap without being combined with something like Ur-Priest or Arcane Hierophant. TN is an even worse trap.

Blackfang108
2010-02-16, 10:16 AM
It also combines well with other theurges, like Arcane Heirophant and Eldritch Disciple.

Where are these two PrC's from?

0datdude0
2010-02-16, 10:49 AM
If you dont mind being evil the ur priest will get you their and net you 9th level spells in both wizard and cleric magic.

Kosjsjach
2010-02-16, 11:13 AM
Alternatively, you could take a peek at the Illumian race from Races of Destiny. The trick is to take the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat at 3rd level, and apply its benefits to one arcane and one divine spell. They effectively count as 2nd-level spells, and thus allow early entry.

Illumians with the Krau sigil make great Mystic Theurges anyway since they get a +2 bonus to caster level (not exceeding their HD), so he'd still have CL 10 in both his classes.

I myself have a ECL 6 Illumian Mystic Theurge I've been wanting to play; he's a Archivist 1/ Wizard 2/ Mystic Theurge 3. I took Archivist so all his spell DCs key off Int; plus it had great flavor. You lose domains and turning, but gain extra versatility. As a bonus, because Archivists get Scribe Scroll at first level (like Wizards), he used the Martial Wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana to trade his Wizard's Scribe Scroll for a Fighter bonus feat (I chose Improved Initiative).

TL;DR: Illumians with Improved Sigil (Krau) qualify for early entry to Mystic Theurge easily.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 11:26 AM
Where are these two PrC's from?

Eldritch Disciple = Complete Mage. (Warlock/Cleric.)
Arcane Heirophant = Races of the Wild. (Wizard/Druid)

Keep in mind that you will need the Divine Magician ACF (also in CM) to get a Warlock/Cleric into Mystic Theurge - trade a domain for some arcane spells.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 12:45 PM
I always suggest this, but its a MASSIVE can-'o-wyrms, so be ready:

Race: Human
Class: Wizard 6/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Ur Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Blood Magus 1
Feats other than required or metamagic: Criminal Background

Basically, you've got 9th level spells in both Arcane and Divine and can outcast anyone

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:05 PM
Don't take Blood Magus as your 20th. Aside from needing to die, it requires two godawful feats to enter.

Take Mindbender instead - with free Telepathy, you can pick up the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness and never be caught off-guard by thinking creatures.

ericgrau
2010-02-16, 01:07 PM
What seems odd to me is that you think you must use feats to do this. If you and the DM want a house rule then simply declare it to be so.

imperialspectre
2010-02-16, 01:55 PM
What seems odd to me is that you think you need houserules to get early PrC entry. Improved Krau Sigil, Versatile Spellcaster, and Precocious Apprentice + Focused Specialist are all ironclad RAW ways to get early entry. Also, even if you get the awful Wiz 3/Clr 3/Mystic Theurge 1 entry in Core, you can just Command a wight, drain levels and use Restoration scrolls. While restoring your levels, use Mystic Theurge levels to qualify for Mystic Theurge, ending up with Wiz 1/Clr 1/MT 5. Ironclad RAW again, and usable in a core-only game.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-16, 02:03 PM
Also, even if you get the awful Wiz 3/Clr 3/Mystic Theurge 1 entry in Core, you can just Command a wight, drain levels and use Restoration scrolls. While restoring your levels, use Mystic Theurge levels to qualify for Mystic Theurge, ending up with Wiz 1/Clr 1/MT 5. Ironclad RAW again, and usable in a core-only game.

.......


I. Wha? How? Huh!?! I think I'm in love :smalleek: :smallredface:

This, I must do!

deuxhero
2010-02-16, 02:05 PM
Isn't just going Ur-Priest a lot easier?

Draz74
2010-02-16, 02:23 PM
Isn't just going Ur-Priest a lot easier?

Not in a Core-only game. :smalltongue:

On the other hand, while the build stated will be awesome at Level 12, after that it will be stuck with Level 11 casting forever on one side of its progression. Not that ending up as a Cleric 19/Wizard 11 at Level 20 is a bad thing.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-16, 02:33 PM
Don't take Blood Magus as your 20th. Aside from needing to die, it requires two godawful feats to enter.

Take Mindbender instead - with free Telepathy, you can pick up the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness and never be caught off-guard by thinking creatures.

I like Blood Magus' nice HD, but that beats it like a drum!!

sofawall
2010-02-16, 03:14 PM
Earliest entry at character creation to Mystic Theurge is probably Favoured Soul 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 1. If playing from level 1 onwards, assuming a non-sane DM, it is able to be entered at Favoured Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 1, but you have nothing to progress on the arcane side, so it probably isn't worth it.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-16, 03:16 PM
Doing 1/1 entry is technically possible with sanctum spell, too...but the thing of it is, it requires 6 skill ranks, so you generally have to have three levels prior to entry, since skill rank modifying shenanigans are not typically accessible at this level.

sofawall
2010-02-16, 03:25 PM
Doing 1/1 entry is technically possible with sanctum spell, too...but the thing of it is, it requires 6 skill ranks, so you generally have to have three levels prior to entry, since skill rank modifying shenanigans are not typically accessible at this level.

Like I said, you cannot enter at character creation, but given time to do a couple infinite wealth loops, it becomes fairly easy.

deuxhero
2010-02-16, 04:02 PM
Not in a Core-only game. :smalltongue:

The early entry tricks aren't core.

randomhero00
2010-02-16, 04:03 PM
Rather than messing with the entry reqs (and thereby unbalancing it compared to the rest of the players) just convince the DM to give everyone a few gestalt levels. if you can convince him to give you up to 3 levels gestalted, you won't have to lose any casting progression at all. But even say, 1 free gestalt level for everyone would be a much easier solution. This way there's no super cheese involved and everyone gets the same power bump.