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View Full Version : [3.5] VoP + Tattooed Monk - Good combination?



Optimystik
2010-02-16, 10:20 AM
I know, from previous threads, that the VoP Monk seems like a good idea on paper but doesn't quite work that well in practice.

But would a Tattooed Monk (CW) be a better fit? I was thinking that the Chameleon tattoo (Alter self tattoos/day, for hours/tattoo) would take care of the main criticism of a VoP Monk, i.e. lack of movement modes (specifically, flight.) I think the VoP benefits make certain tattoos unnecessary too, like the one where you don't have to eat and drink.

Assuming I'm not way off base, what would a good build be? And what tattoos would be good to take?

Eloel
2010-02-16, 10:21 AM
You're adding VoP (subpar), to Monk (very subpar).
The end result, no matter how synergistic, won't be above 'meh'.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 10:29 AM
the problem ios with the alter self is its 1/day and even though it last 5 hours it is dispellable then your sol for the rest of the day.

However it does help alot... I would say it increases the ability of a monk to function ina party.

Tatooed monk is a great monk prc any way... mabye add some fist of the forest and the ususal increases in unarmed damage.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 10:34 AM
You're adding VoP (subpar), to Monk (very subpar).
The end result, no matter how synergistic, won't be above 'meh'.

I disagree - I think this PrC can keep a lot of the monk's flavor while solving many of its power issues. It effectively lets you combine VoP benefits with "magic items" (the tattoos) without breaking the vows.


the problem ios with the alter self is its 1/day and even though it last 5 hours it is dispellable then your sol for the rest of the day.

However it does help alot... I would say it increases the ability of a monk to function ina party.

Actually, you're mistaken on two counts:

1) Tattoos are Supernatural, not spell-likes, and thus cannot be dispelled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) (though they won't function in an AMF.)

2) You can use the ability once per tattoo per day, not once per day. By TM 9, you will have 5 tattoos - meaning 5 Alter Selfs per day, each lasting 5 hours - you can have it up nearly constantly.


EDIT: I am still looking for tattoo suggestions. I won't need the ability score tattoos like Bat (Dexterity) because they won't stack with VoP... does anyone know which ones would work better?

(Or perhaps I can take one - maybe Charisma - and use VoP on the other ones?)

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 10:38 AM
Actually, you're mistaken on two counts:

1) Tattoos are Supernatural, not spells, and thus cannot be dispelled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) (though they won't function in an AMF.)

2) You can use the ability once per tattoo per day, not once per day. By TM 9, you will have 5 tattoos - meaning 5 Alter Selfs per day, each lasting 5 hours - you can have it up nearly constantly.


EDIT: I am still looking for tattoo suggestions. I won't need the ability score tattoos like Bat (Dexterity) because they won't stack with VoP... does anyone know which ones would work better?

(Or perhaps I can take one - maybe Charisma - and use VoP on the other ones?)

I stand corrected... I was under the assumtion they where spell like's...

Im away from books right now so sorry about that... Then if thats the case yes its a great addition to it... and would work with VOP.

Not sure about the validity of these but i would pick
wasp for haste
lion for smite
tiger for bonus damage and to hit
unicorn cuz rerolls rock.

Ormagoden
2010-02-16, 11:03 AM
With the limited time I have at the moment I came up with this

Monk 1/ Fighter 4 /Fist of the forest 10 (it is ten isn't it?)

32 point buy all 14s except for cha

Flaws
Shaky
Inattentive (let someone else focus on spot/listen)

Feats (not in any particular order)

Great Fortitude
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike
Stunning Fist
Power Attack
Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Water Splitting Stone
Fists of Iron
Flying Kick
Superior Unarmed Strike
Sacred Vow
Vow of Poverty
Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike).

The attacks end up being +3 weapons
2d8 +1d6 +10
and
2d8 +1d6 +1d12 +10 on a charge.

122HP
AC 29
+19 Fort +14 Ref +11 Will
DR 5/magic DR 5/evil

all energy resistance 5

Maybe next time around I'll actually include tattooed monk.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 11:10 AM
I stand corrected... I was under the assumtion they where spell like's...

Well, one of them is spell-like - Crescent Moon, which lets you Ethereal Jaunt 1/day. All the rest are (Su.) :smallsmile:

(In addition to the limited use, it's only available at 9th-level - quite safe to skip, I think.)


Not sure about the validity of these but i would pick
wasp for haste
lion for smite
tiger for bonus damage and to hit
unicorn cuz rerolls rock.

Oh, excellent suggestions. I completely forgot tiger and wasp.

All right, so Wasp would definitely be in, as would Tiger. Lion only applies to one hit, so I'm iffy about that - a monk's strength is supposed to be landing multiple smaller attacks, not one big one. Unicorn is nice, but only 1/day - I'm leery about that too.

I was thinking Tortoise would be a nice one - treat any untrained skill as trained, and use my TM level as the number of ranks I possess, tattoos/day. I can't use UMD because of the Vow (and I'm trying to avoid being a Giamonk anyway :smalltongue:) but I can do Gather Information or Spellcraft in a pinch. Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?

I also like Crane - disease and poison immunity, which I'll need since I won't be a monk for very long and VoP doesn't confer those benefits.

So far, my top 4 are

Chameleon
Crane
Wasp
Tiger

And now I'm deciding between Tortoise (for untrained skills) and Phoenix (for Spell Resistance - 15 + TM level.)

Which do you think? And thanks for your help!

Finally, I'll be level 14 at the end (VoP Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9 - no capstone, so no reason to stay until 10.) That leaves 6 levels - what should I PrC into to finish the build? Any non-caster classes that are good?



Maybe next time around I'll actually include tattooed monk.

No worries :smallsmile: Fist of the Forest might actually be a good way to finish this build up. I'll take a look at it in a few.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 11:16 AM
Well, one of them is spell-like - Crescent Moon, which lets you Ethereal Jaunt 1/day. All the rest are (Su.) :smallsmile:

(In addition to the limited use, it's only available at 9th-level - quite safe to skip, I think.)



Oh, excellent suggestions. I completely forgot tiger and wasp.

All right, so Wasp would definitely be in, as would Tiger. Lion only applies to one hit, so I'm iffy about that - a monk's strength is supposed to be landing multiple smaller attacks, not one big one. Unicorn is nice, but only 1/day - I'm leery about that too.

I was thinking Tortoise would be a nice one - treat any untrained skill as trained, and use my TM level as the number of ranks I possess, tattoos/day. I can't use UMD because of the Vow (and I'm trying to avoid being a Giamonk anyway :smalltongue:) but I can do Gather Information or Spellcraft in a pinch. Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?

I also like Crane - disease and poison immunity, which I'll need since I won't be a monk for very long and VoP doesn't confer those benefits.

So far, my top 4 are

Chameleon
Crane
Wasp
Tiger

And now I'm deciding between Tortoise (for untrained skills) and Phoenix (for Spell Resistance - 15 + TM level.)

Which do you think? And thanks for your help!

Finally, I'll be level 14 at the end (VoP Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9 - no capstone, so no reason to stay until 10.) That leaves 6 levels - what should I PrC into to finish the build? Any non-caster classes that are good?



Is unicorn 1/day not 1/day per tattoo(don't have book in front of me)


only untrained skill that would be worth it is potential autohypnosis. or survival if need be.

Might also want to splash some psy fist prc.
Also you may want to trade up flurry for decisive strike... but it all depends on what you want to do.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 11:21 AM
Unicorn 1/day.

Ooh, add Bloodline to this monk will help sincde Bloodline adds to Class level for these things (duration at least).

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 11:21 AM
Is unicorn 1/day not 1/day per tattoo(don't have book in front of me)

Just once per day. If it was once per tattoo I'd snap it up in a heartbeat :smallfrown: Rerolls are indeed awesome.


only untrained skill that would be worth it is potential autohypnosis. or survival if need be.

...I can't believe I forgot Autohypnosis! This guy is getting better and better.

Survival shouldn't be a problem - between his energy resistance and Sustenance (no need to eat/sleep), he should have no problem "roughing it" outdoors.


Might also want to splash some psy fist prc. Also you may want to trade up flurry for decisive strike... but it all depends on what you want to do.

I'm trying to make him as "purely martial" as possible - no psionics. I realize that the tattoos, being supernatural, run counter to that idea, but since the class is from Complete Warrior I think I can get a pass. :smallwink:

What is Decisive Strike from?

I'll take a look at Fist of the Forest in a few.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 11:24 AM
PHB 2: trade flurry for 1 big unarmed strike attack (double damage).

Scorpian is pretty awesome: Most creatures dump Cha or Int after all. Wait, does a Con score - = -5 or 0?


Does bloodline increase number of tattoos gain? Text says 1 tattoo ever odd class level...

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 11:26 AM
...I can't believe I forgot Autohypnosis! This guy is getting better and better.

Survival shouldn't be a problem - between his energy resistance and Sustenance (no need to eat/sleep), he should have no problem "roughing it" outdoors.

I'm trying to make him as "purely martial" as possible - no psionics. I realize that the tattoos, being supernatural, run counter to that idea, but since the class is from Complete Warrior I think I can get a pass. :smallwink:


What is Decisive Strike from?

I'll take a look at Fist of the Forest in a few.

Ya autohypnosis rocks...

understandable about survival

fair enough about psionics... though it wuold help with a vop build.


decisive strike is from phb2 you give up flurry for it.
full round action to make 1 attack that does double damage. at -2 to hit... all your dmage you do untill you next round is doubled...
it works great with snap kick from TOB (when ever you make an unarmed attack you may make an aditional one) and haste(though im not sure if you get the haste attack or not)...

so you could be making 2-3 attacks at double damage. definetly want to look into it.

paddyfool
2010-02-16, 11:26 AM
Is there a non-monk skill that would make this one worth it?


I gather you can do some fun things with Autohypnosis & Iajitsu Focus. And then there are all the fringe skills that you don't need most of the time but can be really fun when they're most appropriate... this would even be good for Knowledge (anything). Never mind the RP-value, when your usually taciturn monk breaks out into song, your usually honest monk lies through his teeth or... wait, how does this work with Speak Language? All in all, +9 to any untrained skill check is really quite fun, although you'd still lose out on opposed checks against anyone fully trained. I'd get this late, though; small skill bonuses aren't really worth enough to justify it. EDIT: Also, don't rule out the monk skills that you just won't have the skill points to invest in.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 11:31 AM
PHB 2: trade flurry for 1 big unarmed strike attack (double damage).

Hmm. If I use that, Lion might be a better choice than Tiger for a huge smite. I'll take a look at that too, thanks.


Scorpian is pretty awesome: Most creatures dump Cha or Int after all. Wait, does a Con score - = -5 or 0?

"Con -" means that the creature has no constitution, not that it equals zero. Therefore hurting its Con does nothing, nor are they able to make constitution-based checks.


Does bloodline increase number of tattoos gain? Text says 1 tattoo ever odd class level...

The text does not impose a maximum on tattoos. Bloodlines are stinky, stinky cheese... just what a monk needs :smallbiggrin:

Which bloodline would you suggest?


it works great with snap kick from TOB (when ever you make an unarmed attack you may make an aditional one) and haste(though im not sure if you get the haste attack or not)...

I'm also trying to avoid ToB - the minute I include it, I'll hear cries of "just be a swordsage!" :smalltongue:

This build seems to be at least respectable without it.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 11:33 AM
"Con -" means that the creature has no constitution, not that it equals zero. Therefore hurting its Con does nothing, nor are they able to make constitution-based checks.


Not able to make Con checks? Sweet. Scorpian (pg 84 CW) makes them use lowest ability score to attack you (instead of Str or Dexd that might be used normally): If Con - means auto fail then they miss you.
Useable 1 per tattoo, as a free action on opponents turn before attack roll declared a success or failure.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 11:34 AM
I'm also trying to avoid ToB - the minute I include it, I'll hear cries of "just be a swordsage!" :smalltongue:

This build seems to be at least respectable without it.

Its a feat that has nothing to do with TOB... it was kinda just thrown in there for the fun of it...


Sorta like stand still and psionics.

lsfreak
2010-02-16, 11:36 AM
Decisive Strike + Robilar's Gambit is probably going to be a fairly good option. You'll only hit once on your main attack, but every AoO is also double damage. Combine that with Snap Kick, which is also doubled...
The biggest problem is that I'm not sure if it would benefit from haste. I don't think it will.

Prime32
2010-02-16, 11:55 AM
Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 12:01 PM
Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

does alter self qualify i thought you had to have polymorph

Prime32
2010-02-16, 12:06 PM
does alter self qualify i thought you had to have polymorphWell, if it doesn't, you could always choose changeling, shifter or hengeyokai as your race and pick up the [shapechanger] subtype. The capstone should still apply.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 12:10 PM
You also could just buy the Shapeshifter subtype from Savage Species: it cost 56, 000 gp, but is instanteous (can't be dispelled).

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 12:11 PM
Not able to make Con checks? Sweet. Scorpian (pg 84 CW) makes them use lowest ability score to attack you (instead of Str or Dexd that might be used normally): If Con - means auto fail then they miss you.
Useable 1 per tattoo, as a free action on opponents turn before attack roll declared a success or failure.

I'm not sure if that will work - if an enemy has no Con score, then it might not even be countable for the purposes of Scorpion. DM call, I'd say.

Not that I'm really worried about being hit - between Wis to AC, Monk AC bonus, Dex to AC, Deflection from VoP and Natural armor from VoP, and Haste.... plus it only applies to one opponent, where I'd rather be tanking several if I can.


Its a feat that has nothing to do with TOB... it was kinda just thrown in there for the fun of it...

Sorta like stand still and psionics.

That's fair. I'll give it a look too.


Decisive Strike + Robilar's Gambit is probably going to be a fairly good option. You'll only hit once on your main attack, but every AoO is also double damage. Combine that with Snap Kick, which is also doubled...
The biggest problem is that I'm not sure if it would benefit from haste. I don't think it will.

What's Robilar's Gambit, and where is it from?


Consider some warshaper levels to take advantage of your ability to change shape. With the lv5 capstone you basically have alter self at will.

Unfortunately, Alter Self isnt listed among the acceptable prereqs for Warshaper. :smallfrown: Of course, I could be mistaken about its eligibility - wasn't CW before the Polymorph rules update?

Animefunkmaster
2010-02-16, 12:13 PM
A little tidbit to add.

In the Rokugan d20 Secrets of the Dragon (I know Rokugan does not have the most balance compared to other settings) a Dragon Clan tattooed monk may take tattoos as Kiho Feats provided they don't go over the amount of void points (something just about everyone has in that game) they have.

Worth talking to a DM to allow you to take a few tattoos as feats which in turn makes most tattoos stronger.

The book also offers new tattoos (I will summarize, but they are on Page 79 Secrets of the Dragon).

Eagle: Spend a void point get a huge bonus to jump for 5 minutes
Rising Sun: 1/day create an emanation that can possibly blind and stun (two saves)tainted creatures only functions in daylight.
Void: Each time you spend a void point to get a stack-able bonus to checks that perceive the environment, spending 4 specifically to this tat will let you see through all non-magical obstructions. Afterward you tack a penalty based on the bonuses (exact opposite) you received. Pretty long duration for both.
Wolf: Gain Scent, and penalty against things that target scent (Stinking cloud)
Cat: 1/day/tattoo add the number of tats you have as an enhancement bonus to cha
Panther: Similar to the chameleon but disguise self as opposed to alter self
Vine: 1/day Regenerate at a set caster level
White Dragon: (min monk/tattooed monk level combination 10) Spend void points cast cone of cold, take large penalty to initiative afterward for long duration
Avalanche: Mini rage, spend void point increase str by 4 (typless) for a number of rounds equal to con. Afterward fatigued
Blaze: 1/day/tatoo after a successful unarmed attack your attack is treated as if it had a (specifically stack-able) +2 enhancement bonus and fiery burst.
Bone: Gains rebuke kind of like a paladin, can only control 1 intelligent undead but regular limit on mindless.

lsfreak
2010-02-16, 12:15 PM
Robilar's Gambit is PHB2, requires Combat Reflexes. +4 to attack and damage rolls against you, but every melee attack against you provokes. Combined with the double damage of Decisive Strike (which explicitly lasts until your next turn), that can be a pretty nasty AoO build. The problem is that you lack reach, which isn't ideal, and won't benefit from the huge Power Attack bonuses of many AoO builds. And, again, Decisive Strike is a 'full-round action,' and may or may not benefit from haste.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 12:23 PM
I'm not sure if that will work - if you an enemy has no Con score, then it might not even be countable for the purposes of Scorpion. DM call, I'd say.

Not that I'm really worried about being hit - between Wis to AC, Monk AC bonus, Dex to AC, Deflection from VoP and Natural armor from VoP, and Haste.... plus it only applies to one opponent, where I'd rather be tanking several if I can.


Your Touch AC will be high, but lower than normal AC: it might be handy vs touch attacks if they roll really well (before they ask if it hits, look at number rolled).
Plus, sometimes you fight a BBEG who is higher level who can normally hit you. But against mooks (below your level enemies) or goons (your level enemies), I agree you should be fine.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 12:46 PM
@ anime: Some of those tattoos look interesting, but I'm afraid I have no idea what "void points" are. Thank you for the input though - when I'm done optimizing for D&D I'll see if i can incorporate other systems.

@ lsfreak: I agree the lack of reach could be problem. Can Alter Self fix that? Having every hit provoke would be nice.

@ Starbuck: I'm not going to focus heavily on touch AC. Trying to boost that to a meaningful level is a losing game - I'd rather keep my offensive power, and just rely on Dex, dodge and deflection and maybe size to help me out.

***

All right, I looked up Fist of the Forest. The synergy is quite good. I dislike being feral, but the benefits may be worth it. I'd be getting:

- Con to AC: Which stacks with all my other AC bonuses above.
- Advances monk speed , armor bonus and Unarmed Strike progression
- Claws (+2 damage to all attacks, stacks with Tiger tattoo) and Mini-rage 2/day, with a bite attack (1d6 +Str) while I'm raging
- Cannot sleep indoors or buy food: not a problem, since I need neither
- Uncanny Dodge (Improved if I already have UD by then.)
- Ghost touch fists!
- Scent

So... this is a pretty strong contender for levels 15-18, I think Are there any other decent monk PrCs I can take? Either for the last 2 levels, or in place of FotF. I'd really like something that wouldn't turn me into a savage, but I'll take it if not.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 12:49 PM
Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 12:52 PM
Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

doesn't progress monk abilities

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 12:59 PM
Are you a Dwarf? Deep Warden lets you add Con to AC instead of Dex at level 2.

I'd rather not make it restricted to any one race unless I have to, but I'll take a look at Deep Warden. Races of Stone?


doesn't progress monk abilities

While I would like 20 levels of monk abilities ideally, I'm okay with losing 2 :smallsmile:

Where can I find a list of Monk-progressing PrCs to comb through? Is there a Monk handbook?

(No builds that use partially-charged wands please)

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 01:05 PM
Um i would used crystal keep though its not extensive...
i think each of the completes included one prc that increase monk abilities

Prime32
2010-02-16, 01:25 PM
And then there's the Tashalatora feat, which lets any psionic class progress monk abilities.

Quirp
2010-02-16, 01:32 PM
what about the Anointed Knight in BoED
say that your body is a weapon you inherited from your grandfather and then improv your "weapon" based on your charisma score (10 hardness or 50 hp anyone?)

or just for the fun you can have at parties boost your charisma and become a sentient weapon

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 01:46 PM
And then there's the Tashalatora feat, which lets any psionic class progress monk abilities.

Oh believe me, if I was going psionic I would grab it in a heartbeat.

(It's available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) as well.)



or just for the fun you can have at parties boost your charisma and become a sentient weapon

I'm all in favor of fun at parties :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately, Anointed Knight requires Ancestral Relic, and Ancestral Relic requires a masterwork weapon, which will surely violate my Vow of Poverty.

I know I'm missing a good monk PrC somewhere - does anyone know another one besides Fist of the Forest? (And no, I don't want Drunken Master :smalltongue:)

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 01:51 PM
Kensai is a good one
Initiate of Draconic Mysteries from draconomicon


also monk handbook from BG:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0

Quirp
2010-02-16, 01:56 PM
the kensai can choose his natural weapons although they are not masterwork (and he has to use masterwork manufactured weapons too) you should be able to do the same
I think the bigger problem is that you must get the weapon of choice from your ancestors/your mentor/..... and that can prove quiet difficult if your (grand)father likes his hands (plus you are exalted so he has to give them to you free willed)

Eloel
2010-02-16, 01:57 PM
I know I'm missing a good monk PrC somewhere

Shadow Sun Ninja might work with you, depending on what you think of ToB.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-16, 02:08 PM
Shadow Sun Ninja might work with you, depending on what you think of ToB.

he already said no tob

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 02:22 PM
Shadow Sun Ninja might work with you, depending on what you think of ToB.

I have nothing against ToB, I just wanted to see if I could make a decent monk without it - since I already know that using it will make a great one.


Kensai is a good one

You're right, that's not bad. +8 untyped to strength at will (rising DC) is pretty sweet. Kensai 2? Or if I drop FotF, Kensai 5 gets me Withstand (swap Concentration for reflex saves.) Maybe I'd stick with Kensai 2.


Initiate of Draconic Mysteries from draconomicon

Not really that gung-ho about this one, too much lizard-wank in that book.


also monk handbook from BG:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0

Thanks! I'll pore through it.

***

I just realized - if I have 2 empty levels left, I could just be a Saint. I'm already exalted, after all.

Doing so would give me:
- Outsider type (for even more Alter Self shenanigans)
- Wis to AC (again - so now I have Wis, Con, Dex and Wis to AC - in addition to my deflection, dodge and natural armor bonuses.)
- +1d6 damage to evil creatures and +1d8 to undead and fiends per attack
- Immune to acid, cold, electricity, and petrification
- resist fire 10
- Magic circle against evil + Lesser globe of invulnerability at will
- Tongues
- +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha

Lots of great bonuses there.

I also found two more monk PrCs in Dragon Compendium - Arcanopath Monk and Monk of the Enabled Hand. The latter is so far looking great.

AgentPaper
2010-02-16, 02:27 PM
the kensai can choose his natural weapons although they are not masterwork (and he has to use masterwork manufactured weapons too) you should be able to do the same
I think the bigger problem is that you must get the weapon of choice from your ancestors/your mentor/..... and that can prove quiet difficult if your (grand)father likes his hands (plus you are exalted so he has to give them to you free willed)

Heh, now that's a cool idea, a line of monks that pass down a pair of fists belonging to some ancient, legendary ancestor. You come of age, you and your father get your hands lopped off, and then they attach the ancestral fists to your bloody stumps.

OracleofWuffing
2010-02-16, 02:29 PM
Well, the weapon you're using is an unarmed strike, not your fists. An unarmed strike can be made using any part of your body, so...

...

...Dang, that line of monks would be hardcore.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 02:30 PM
If I were using a masterwork item with Kensai, it would break my vows too. But Kensai has a variant that works with fists. Anointed Knight doesn't.


Heh, now that's a cool idea, a line of monks that pass down a pair of fists belonging to some ancient, legendary ancestor. You come of age, you and your father get your hands lopped off, and then they attach the ancestral fists to your bloody stumps.

That... you...

...

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 02:31 PM
Nice eye, looking at Saint. Always thought that was a fun template for an exalted game.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 02:34 PM
Nice eye, looking at Saint. Always thought that was a fun template for an exalted game.

I also need three Exalted feats to qualify. Sacred Vow and VoP are two... I think a good third one would be Intuitive Attack. Though with the VoP bonuses, I won't be nearly as MAD as a regular monk I think... maybe I don't need it.

Pechvarry
2010-02-16, 02:35 PM
It should be noted that Robilar's Gambit is pretty terrible for a pure monk build -- it will likely be your level 18 feat. You're .75 BAB through and through. And if you want bloodline cheese, you'll never get it.

The alternative is CW's inferior karmic strike. More feat prereqs, and requires the opponent to actually hit you. At least on the upside, if you go for karmic strike and take 6 levels of monk, you're probably very close to defensive throw, too (trip attempt against foe who missed you).

Emmerask
2010-02-16, 02:43 PM
Unfortunately, Anointed Knight requires Ancestral Relic, and Ancestral Relic requires a masterwork weapon, which will surely violate my Vow of Poverty.


doesnt the monk fist count as masterwork? would be hard though to convince a gm that your fists are ancestral relics ^^ genetics maybe? ^^

/edit at 4th level monk unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons
and all magic weapons count as master work weapons

Prime32
2010-02-16, 02:47 PM
Well, if you could get hold of the Hand of Vecna somehow...

Quietus
2010-02-16, 02:48 PM
I also need three Exalted feats to qualify. Sacred Vow and VoP are two... I think a good third one would be Intuitive Attack. Though with the VoP bonuses, I won't be nearly as MAD as a regular monk I think... maybe I don't need it.

Considering VoP gives you free exalted feats at level 1, and then every even level, I THINK you'll be okay on grabbing that third Exalted feat.

As to being MAD - yeah, you probably will. Remember, you still need str for damage, dex/wis for saves and AC, and Con for HP. If you think you can grab Saint, I'd probably prioritize them as str-wis-con-dex, personally; You'll need the damage str gives you, and wis needed is lessened somewhat by several defenses VoP gives, plus it works double time on AC through Saint. Between Con and Dex I put Con higher simply because I'd rather have the HP than the AC.

Xenogears
2010-02-16, 02:58 PM
Considering VoP gives you free exalted feats at level 1, and then every even level, I THINK you'll be okay on grabbing that third Exalted feat.

The hard part is finding enough Exalted feats you want to take. Be prepared to randomly glow or something after your done picking exalted feats you can live with.

Also as for the Unicorn Tattoo it was /per tattoo per day back in OA but they changed it to just 1/day in Complete Warrior. Thus the confusion.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 03:11 PM
/edit at 4th level monk unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons
and all magic weapons count as master work weapons

They're treated as magic weapons... for the purposes of damaging creatures with damage reduction.

It might fly, but I think it's a stretch to go from that, to saying that my hands are masterwork all the time.

(insert master bait joke here)


Considering VoP gives you free exalted feats at level 1, and then every even level, I THINK you'll be okay on grabbing that third Exalted feat.

Forgot that :smalltongue: Intuitive Attack it is then.


As to being MAD - yeah, you probably will. Remember, you still need str for damage, dex/wis for saves and AC, and Con for HP. If you think you can grab Saint, I'd probably prioritize them as str-wis-con-dex, personally; You'll need the damage str gives you, and wis needed is lessened somewhat by several defenses VoP gives, plus it works double time on AC through Saint. Between Con and Dex I put Con higher simply because I'd rather have the HP than the AC.

Hmm... I'm not sure I need Str to damage that badly - between my high damage die (2d8 to 1d20), bonus damage to evil enemies from Saint, bonus damage from Lion or Tiger, and a bite attack from FoF if I go that route (or +8 str at will if I go Kensai), I can probably get decent numbers without making Str my main stat. But it's definitely in the top 3.


The hard part is finding enough Exalted feats you want to take. Be prepared to randomly glow or something after your done picking exalted feats you can live with.

That's a good point. Maybe I should take it late to avoid having to take Improved Nag My Party and Supreme Abstinence. :smallamused:


Also as for the Unicorn Tattoo it was /per tattoo per day back in OA but they changed it to just 1/day in Complete Warrior. Thus the confusion.

Ugh, typical. Maybe I can get that version ruled in, I have OA knocking around somewhere...

Xenogears
2010-02-16, 03:14 PM
That's a good point. Maybe I should take it late to avoid having to take Improved Nag My Party and Supreme Abstinence. :smallamused:

You can always go cheesy and take it late after getting a Tome to add +5 to your wisdom...

Prime32
2010-02-16, 03:42 PM
Take a level of Shiba Protector to add Wis as a bonus to attack and damage (in addition to your existing score, so it stacks with Intuitive Attack).

Take two levels of soulknife and one of soulbow and you can add Wis as a bonus to damage with your mind arrows as well. There's a feat in SoS which turns your mind blade into a monk weapon.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 03:44 PM
Try this:


Silverbrow Human Warblade 5/Disciple of the Eye 5/Tattooed Monk 10

Feats:

Human: IUS
3rd: Improved Grapple
Warblade 5: Endurance
6th: Superior Unarmed Strike
9th: Free
12th: Free
15th: Free
18th: Free

I recommend Martial Study for those free feats.

Tattoos:

Wasp
Tiger
Tortoise
Chameleon
Chrysanthemum

BTW, the reason there's no VoP here is because your Tattoos provide an Enhancement bonus to your abilities, which doesn't stack with VoP's benefits. Warblade levels make the enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from VoP a lot less worth-while, and Disciple of the Eye provides Blindsense at 5th level (meaning True Seeing is somewhat redundant). You're better off with items.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 04:01 PM
TBTW, the reason there's no VoP here is because your Tattoos provide an Enhancement bonus to your abilities, which doesn't stack with VoP's benefits. Warblade levels make the enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from VoP a lot less worth-while, and Disciple of the Eye provides Blindsense at 5th level (meaning True Seeing is somewhat redundant). You're better off with items.

My goal was actually trying a VoP build that will work without nerfing a monk in any encounter that requires movement modes (flight etc.) I do know that items are superior to VoP, but beating items was never VoP's point.

Also, I specifically avoided the tattoos that provided enhancement bonuses for the exact reason you just stated. :smallsmile:

Finally, I'm avoiding ToB because I might as well just be a Swordsage if I'm going to use it.

I do appreciate the build though, looks solid.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-16, 04:06 PM
My goal was actually trying a VoP build that will work without nerfing a monk in any encounter that requires movement modes (flight etc.) I do know that items are superior to VoP, but beating items was never VoP's point.

Also, I specifically avoided the tattoos that provided enhancement bonuses for the exact reason you just stated. :smallsmile:

Finally, I'm avoiding ToB because I might as well just be a Swordsage if I'm going to use it.

I do appreciate the build though, looks solid.

There was a reason I avoided Swordsage.

The best way to use VoP is if Incarnum or Spellcasting is involved, and you know that. Use Totemist, call it a Monk. You can even enter Tattooed Monk with Totemist, but you're spending two feats to do so (considering Improved Grapple is granted through a Chakra Bind). Totemist 10/Tattooed Monk 10.

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 04:23 PM
Use Totemist, call it a Monk.

Now where's the fun in that? :smalltongue:

Yes, I do know Incarnum (and psionics) are superior with VoP as well. But there is no challenge in making Incarnum and Psionics playable - they already are.

My only concern is - can this monk hold his own in a party? Has he risen above Tier 4, however slightly?

Human/Buomman Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9/X 4 with Saint Template.

(I'm thinking of Monk of the Enabled Hand [DrgComp] for "X" - It's another way to get Wraithstrike fists, my fists are magic, good and lawful, and I can disarm with them as though they were Large weapons.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 04:24 PM
Now where's the fun in that? :smalltongue:

Yes, I do know Incarnum (and psionics) are superior with VoP as well. But there is no challenge in making Incarnum and Psionics playable - they already are.

My only concern is - can this monk hold his own in a party? Has he risen above Tier 4, however slightly?

Human/Buomman Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9/X 4 with Saint Template.

(I'm thinking of Monk of the Enabled Hand [DrgComp] for "X" - It's another way to get Wraithstrike fists, my fists are magic, good and lawful, and I can disarm with them as though they were Large weapons.

Dragonborn Buomman can speak (I perfer speaking).

Soranar
2010-02-16, 04:41 PM
Well here's something

Race: Earth Dwarf
Alignment: Lawful Good

template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (flight version)

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 18 (+2 racial bonus)
DEX 4 (dump, -4 from racial and template)
CON 20 (+4 racial bonus and template)
INT 10 (dump)
WIS 16
CHA 6 (dump -2 from racial)

Deepwarden makes Con replace Dex so it might as well be a dump stat.

ToB lets you base yourself on Dex instead of STR for damage but you banned it so this is what I came up with. (shadow blade feat)

I'm not sold on tattooed monk for this build. As mentioned before enhancement bonuses don't stack. And any ability you gain from it can be gained from a friendly caster except the bad ones. And you lose decent monk abilities like greater flurry.

so outside of these 3 levels

fist of the forest 1
deepwarden 2

Dwarf only feats you should take : two-handed strike (1.5 times your strenth to damage using unarmed strike)

earth sense+ fist of iron (or something like that)

your fists are treated as cold iron weapons as long as you touch the ground

Optimystik
2010-02-16, 05:04 PM
Well here's something

Race: Earth Dwarf
Alignment: Lawful Good

template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (flight version)

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 18 (+2 racial bonus)
DEX 4 (dump, -4 from racial and template)
CON 20 (+4 racial bonus and template)
INT 10 (dump)
WIS 16
CHA 6 (dump -2 from racial)

Deepwarden makes Con replace Dex so it might as well be a dump stat. [/QUOTE]

Excellent spread - I should rethink dwarves.


I'm not sold on tattooed monk for this build. As mentioned before enhancement bonuses don't stack. And any ability you gain from it can be gained from a friendly caster except the bad ones. And you lose decent monk abilities like greater flurry.

Tattooed Monk was mainly for flavor, with some power attached - I wanted a "monky" PrC that could enhance the monk's strengths from VoP while simultaneously minimizing its weaknesses.

To reiterate - The fact that tattoo enhancement bonuses and VoP enhancement bonuses don't stack is not an issue - because I'm not taking any tattoos that grant Enhancement bonuses. Indeed, the fact that my Vows have created redundancy is a blessing - it means that I have less tattoos vying for my attention. VoP also takes over for other tattoos, such as Ocean (don't need to eat) and White Mask (undetectable alignment.)

The most essential tattoo of course is Chameleon, for undispellable Alter Self 5/day for 5 hours/activation. Combined with the Saint Template, I can turn into any Outsider from Small to Large size in the game. This solves the VoP Monk's problem of being unable to fly, and addresses both their damage output (I can turn into something with Ex. Pounce) and survivability (turn into something with natural armor and/or a size bonus.

The others restore my useful monk abilities.. Diamond Soul from Phoenix; Purity of Body, Diamond Body and Timeless Body from Crane (three class features in one tattoo, poor monk); Wasp gives me supernatural Haste; and the 5th one is all up to me. (Good candidates are Tortoise, Falcon, Lion, Tiger and Scorpion.)



so outside of these 3 levels

fist of the forest 1
deepwarden 2

Dwarf only feats you should take : two-handed strike (1.5 times your strenth to damage using unarmed strike)

earth sense+ fist of iron (or something like that)

your fists are treated as cold iron weapons as long as you touch the ground

Now that (two-handed strike) would be a compelling reason to be a strength build dwarf monk. Interesting...

Prime32
2010-02-16, 05:12 PM
"Two-handed strike"? And dwarf only? I've seen a feat like that before, but it didn't have that name, and it had some annoying limitations.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hammer_Fist

The Glyphstone
2010-02-16, 05:32 PM
Yeah, Hammer Fist is horrifically bad.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 05:37 PM
It might be good in a decisive strike build + Snap kick.
(1.5 Str + unarmed damage) x2.
Both snap kick and Decisive are not flurry so they would get bonus.

Not that decisive strike is the best, but hey, you could at least use the feat. Plus, Stunning fist usually only works 1/rd, (unless have improved stunning feat) with +2 DC with the style.

D-naras
2010-02-16, 05:52 PM
I just want to point out that if you use Kensai for the rest of your levels, (which you shouldn't. It requires Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise plus ride as a class skill :smalleek:) the STR bonus it gets at 2nd level is a standard action to activate and lasts for half your Kensai levels. And that's terrible.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-16, 05:54 PM
True, but it is at will (easy concentration check), but yeah without 4 levels minimum it kinda sucks.
Add a Bloodline though... and now it lasts longer.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-16, 07:45 PM
I feel that the entire build has justification in the Chrysanthemum tattoo, which implies having a deep knowledge of the system and pretty much limitating yourself to a few creatures, hoping the rest of the combined tattoo/VoP granted abilities will suffice. That's a tad dangerous, since while a supernatural ability, it does imply you'll be more often than not transformed. The wrong form, and you'll be taking it harshly. And it still doesn't address many of the troubles that Monk + VoP still have (basically, the entire basis of the choice is flying).

Now, if you still desire to work it out, you should realize what else you'd need. Damage is a must, and so is bypassing some of the visual modes you can't access by means of magic items. Heck, you need to bypass all of the stuff that you can't get through magic items.

First, have you thought in which level are you going to abandon Monk?

Second, what after Tattooed Monk 9?

Third, willing to use anything else? I presume that, for what you've said, Psionics and Incarnum and specifically ToB is out of the question.

And finally, what else you'll be missing aside from being capable of flying? Your energy resistances, true seeing, and freedom of movement will be acquired pretty late actually.

I'd go with something along the lines of Monk X/Tattooed Monk 9/Fist of the Forest X/Warshaper X. Warshaper is awesome for what you want, and it isn't so hard to qualify (BAB +4, a type of shapechanging ability); you may not qualify by means of Alter Self with the Chrysanthemum tattoo, but the fact that you only require to get the shapechanger subtype means your race choices would be limited.

I'd say: get to be Shifter, take the shifting that increases Wis (Dreamhunt?). By Races of Eberrron and Monster Manual III, shifters are legal on any place, so you wouldn't be so troubled. Take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty if necessary by means of flaws (I know, a bad choice, but it's decent if you know exactly which flaw to use), so you can get VoP from 1st level. Then, get the means to incline everything from your Wis, or as much as possible, by means of feats. Since Shifter gets you to become a shapechanger, you can acquire the ability to enter Warshaper, which fits perfectly with what you seek on various terms: increase on your existing natural weapons (if you can make your unarmed strike that counts as a natural weapon to stack, you add INA and get a huge boost on damage), boosts in Strength and Constitution (+4, but they are untyped so you can stack them with your VoP growth), immunity to critical hits and stunning (and thus, to sneak attacks and other nasty attacks), extended reach (10 feet, which is nice to stack with your weapons), and fast healing 2 so as long as you're transformed (which is for 5 hours, so it's actually better than having lesser vigor cast upon you). Warshaper is 5 levels long, but you can make it 4 if you wish because the final level isn't as powerful.

So, you get to cover some immunities, fast healing, damage (potentially; otherwise you can work something out), reach and stats in about 4 levels. Tattooed Monk covers part of your lost Monk abilities and what VoP doesn't cover, and VoP covers just about the rest. You'll still need a way to detect creatures, though; Blind-Fight + Blindsight, 5 ft. radius is a cheap way to bypass blindness and make sure that you can still see even in an AMF, but it's a two-feat long chain. If you can make it so it's Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 9/Warshaper 4, you can stretch 2 levels of Fist of the Forest just for the heck of it; feat choice will dent you, though (Great Fortitude is a tad meh, and you won't do much with Power Attack; Endurance is another killer). Finally, for when you're in a dire need for a slight boost, you can shift as a swift action, perhaps get Dreamhunt Elite for an effective ability to see the ethereal while True Seeing kicks in, and you're set for most of the troubles of a VoP monk. Sure, it does have other problems that kick in (say, you can't shift and use Alter Self at the same time, so you technically can't fly) and it's a much more restrictive build, but it's an interesting way to handle some of the weaknesses of a VoP monk.

Soranar
2010-02-16, 11:43 PM
"Two-handed strike"? And dwarf only? I've seen a feat like that before, but it didn't have that name, and it had some annoying limitations.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hammer_Fist

Actually the online excerpt disagrees with the real text. The actual text is :

''You add 1.5 times your Strength bonus on your damage when you hit. This extra damage does not apply if you do a flurry of blows or if you are holding anything in either hand.''

So it's not limited to 1 attack per round, but you still can't flurry. Still, it can be decent with the appropriate build.

And the name of the feat is Hammerfist

Swok
2010-02-17, 12:42 AM
What about Neraphim for the race? LA 0 and outsider type offers fun with Alter Self.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 06:54 AM
"Two-handed strike"? And dwarf only? I've seen a feat like that before, but it didn't have that name, and it had some annoying limitations.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Hammer_Fist

That site is notorious for mistaking details on non-OGL material. Hammerfist is in Races of Faerun and goes as follows:

"Prereqs: Str 13, IUS, Dwarf.
Benefits: You add 1.5x your Str bonus on your damage when you hit with an unarmed strike. This extra damage does not apply if you make a flurry of blows attack or if you are holding anything in either hand. You must use both hands to make the unarmed attack."

It says nothing about having to make "a single unarmed attack." Dandello is simply wrong.

@ D-naras - yes, I probably won't be using Kensai. Both Fist of the Forest and Monk of the Enabled Hand seem like they have better benefits. Wraithstrike (touch attack punches) and Ghost Touch (ignore miss chance) on my hands are powerful buffs.



And the name of the feat is Hammerfist

It is printed in RoF as Hammer Fist.

TGO, I'll address your concerns momentarily, I don't want this post getting too long. To summarize my thoughts though, you are right - the Chameleon tattoo is the lynchpin of the build, because this monk can start Altering himself as early as level 6. But I think it's a powerful ability for a monk to have, especially lasting as long and usable as many times/day as it is.

Warshaper might indeed be the best way to key into that strength - and if Alter Self won't let me qualify, I can always be a Changeling or Shifter. Shifter is probably my best bet as that will fit nicely with the Fist of the Forest fluff if I go that route. I'll have a couple of builds up soon.

Anxe
2010-02-17, 12:01 PM
My favorite monk build is Monk/Warlock/Enlightened Fist. At high levels you can take Eldritch Line and start Kamehamehaing and Hadokening things. VoP would work pretty well with that as well. Course this build has Serious MAD problems, but Monk already has that in the first place, so whatever.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 12:21 PM
My favorite monk build is Monk/Warlock/Enlightened Fist. At high levels you can take Eldritch Line and start Kamehamehaing and Hadokening things. VoP would work pretty well with that as well. Course this build has Serious MAD problems, but Monk already has that in the first place, so whatever.

That's not a bad idea actually... If I use Ascetic Mage or Battledancer I can dump Wisdom and focus on Cha instead... or if I go with Wisdom I can pick no-save invocations and dump Cha.