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Vallum
2010-02-16, 04:46 PM
Hello Giantitp forums! I'm a long time observer and gamer to the boards... I was finally invited to a high power campaign, and thus I decided to join the board, which I have referenced for years for various build help, in order to come up with a character that can keep up with this group.


The party currently consists of a troll, rogue, TWF ranger, cleric, sorcerer, and a druid

all level 5 characters, (except the troll, he isn't leveling until we reach 11). Any 3.0 & 3.5 allowed, including homebrew, (just have to show it to him and get the okay).

The best/most interesting thing about this group is their stats. They have a cool roll system, (4d6, re-roll less then 10, count highest three, AND add 4th if its 1 or 2)

Thus, I have these stats

20
18
18
16
15
20

What should I make. I want to complement the party, not step on anyone's toes... But I just can't decide from all the choices on what I should create.

BRC
2010-02-16, 04:55 PM
Welcome to GiantITP. Come inside, sit down, relax. Read the rules and you should be fine. Just a word of warning, don't try to there is no mind control, I will go back to my fun.

Anyway, your party seems to have all it's bases covered, and with stats like that you could do a wide variety of things. A Wizard can't hurt, but one of their big strengths is that they don't need alot of high stats, it almost seems like a waste in this case.


Duskblade might be nice here. A Factotum is always good. Really with those stats and that party you could be pretty much anything. I wouldn't worry about stepping on peoples toes, with the exception of high skills ranks (Because only one rogue can disarm a trap at a time) it never hurts to have redundancies, and even then it's rarely a problem.

Glimbur
2010-02-16, 05:07 PM
Those are some really nice stats. You should be a bard. Check out a bard handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) as a start, but that handbook isn't fully up to date. It's possible to get a bard offering +3d6 elemental damage on every attack at level 5, via Dragofire Inspiration from Dragon Magic, Song of the Heart from Eberron Campaign Setting, and Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium. That's serious buffing.

Vallum
2010-02-16, 05:08 PM
Thats why I'm stuck BRC... I have no idea what to make :smallfrown:

Hmmm.... Bard you say? Hmmm......
I like to plan out my builds, should I head towards Seeker of the Song? Sublime Chord? Aaaaaaah, so many choices :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2010-02-16, 05:08 PM
All this starts from the assumption that others have equally impressive stats. If that isn't true, it may be worthwhile to reign yourself back a bit. If you're all superhigh though, here goes:


Cleric could be incredible. Don't worry about the other Cleric; it's easy enough to build two completely different Clerics and with your stats, I'd do just that. You make for a perfect warrior Cleric.

Archivist [Heroes of Horror] is quite possibly even better. It's usually weakened by multiattribute dependency, but that isn't going to be a problem for you for another couple of dozen levels. You could get turning on level 7 through Sacred Exorcist and go for some nice Archer Archivist-build. Those things are brutal with Ranger- and Cleric-spells along with the few handy Druid-spells to enhance themselves while Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine] Persisting [Complete Arcane] slews of buffs (most notably, Divine Power to reach full BAB).

Wizard, particularly a Gish (Warrior Wizard), could also really love those stats. You could easily access Arcane Disciple making a Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer [Complete Mage] with Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine] to pick up Divine Power making for effective Rogue/Wizard/Fighter workable. 3-level dip in Incantatrix [Player's Guide to Faerun] would enable persisting said spells.

Artificer [Eberron Campaign Settings] would also be really nice and could be made for...basically anything.


But yeah, I'd definitely go for arcane casting/divine caster capable of doubling as an arcane caster, and a multipurpose character (to make those stats work out). Sorcerer is fine, but without...stupid abuse, quite limited so there's a lot of room on the arcane side in the party to cover expertise not covered yet.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-16, 05:13 PM
Actually, Bard/Warblade White Raven Song build might not be out of order. You've got a couple of melee DPS guys, and while the Troll *can* soak hits, he's gonna be a lot less nasty in a few levels. And you get to Inspire your guys.

It's all about Dragonfire Inspiration, man. With the Rogue and the TWF Ranger, all those extra dice are gonna get applied a lot. Then you wade in yourself with Snowflake Wardance.

Glimbur
2010-02-16, 05:33 PM
Thats why I'm stuck BRC... I have no idea what to make :smallfrown:

Hmmm.... Bard you say? Hmmm......
I like to plan out my builds, should I head towards Seeker of the Song? Sublime Chord? Aaaaaaah, so many choices :smallsigh:

Sublime Chord is really, really nice. It's probably possible to have some Bard and some Crusader before level 11 so you can combine Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle with Sublime Chord casting. Bard 4/Crusader 1/ JPM 1/Something (Bard?)4/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 9.

BRC
2010-02-16, 05:34 PM
Thats why I'm stuck BRC... I have no idea what to make :smallfrown:
Time for BRC's Test for indecisive players!
Rate each statement with Strongly Disagree, Disagree, Neutral, Agree, Strongly Agree.
Speak softly and carry a big sword.

If you're leaving scorch marks, you need a bigger gun.

Happiness is a warm staff.

You can get alot farther with a charm person and a kind word than you will with a kind word alone.

Fight Smarter, not Harder.

In the absence of orders, find something and kill it.

Lets you and him fight.

Boom, Headshot.

Fair fights are for suckers.

If they can do it, I can do it too.

Part 2, which of the following is, in your opinion, the most awesome.

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/God-of-War-god-of-war-38284_1024_1158.jpg
http://anotherjoesixpack.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/james-bond.jpg

http://c2.api.ning.com/files/5Z6XpSCLUcu9TZrYv*M*uev8gTfyO15yGUkYziQc0Ge7-mZEFe8Y4ODHM4Yx-*UACqd6a3GVkPlIR*tK2AHfMki-yfcB4Q0E/batman33009.jpg

Part 3, in Princess Bride, which of the following was your favorite.
The Man in Black
Inigo Montoya
Fezzik
Miracle Max

More to come, probably (I have wasted lots of time, and I have work that needs doing).

randomhero00
2010-02-16, 05:52 PM
How high powered we talking? Just the stats? Or are the classes optimized too?

If the classes are highly optimized too, ignore bards and such, you have a chance to have some fun with cheese.

The thing is, all bases are already covered so you'll probably step on their toes regardless. Unless you want to make a tank lockdown build (but meh, thats boring to me). That looks like about the only thing your party is missing. You can do that through crusader or fighter if you want, otherwise:

Dragonwrought kobold sorc (who uses ritual and other cheesy dragony goodness)
Any early entry Ur-priest build
DMM cleric (would be more of a melee dude, so probably not stepping on your party's cleric)
Tainted scholar
StP Erudite
Hellfire warlock with 1 level of binder (to ignore, con damage I think it is?)
ubercharger/shocktrooper
ruby knight vindicator (for swift action cheese)

All of those builds are (assuming they're optimized, i suppose you could do toned down versions of most) super powerful though, so be warned.

dragonfan6490
2010-02-16, 06:00 PM
You should be a monk. With those stats, the problem of MAD is relatively moot. You really just have to decide what stats you want to be "not quite as awesome as the others but still pretty good."

Gnorman
2010-02-16, 07:02 PM
You should be a monk. With those stats, the problem of MAD is relatively moot. You really just have to decide what stats you want to be "not quite as awesome as the others but still pretty good."

Even with MAD fixed, monks still suck.

I vote for a battlefield control wizard. Go conjurer! Throw down fogs, clouds, orbs, and summons left and right! The sorcerer and possibly the cleric will appreciate the extra meatshields, while the troll, rogue, and ranger will love beating up on your flat-footed, tripped, nauseated, sickened, CON-damaged, frozen, blinded, and webbed enemies! The druid and you will be the best of friends, flooding the battlefield with bears, bears, and more bears. Even celestial bears!

Vallum
2010-02-16, 07:13 PM
Sublime Chord is really, really nice. It's probably possible to have some Bard and some Crusader before level 11 so you can combine Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle with Sublime Chord casting. Bard 4/Crusader 1/ JPM 1/Something (Bard?)4/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 9.

iiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnteresting........why only 1 level of sublime chord btw?


Time for BRC's Test for indecisive players!
Rate each statement with Strongly Disagree, Disagree, Neutral, Agree, Strongly Agree.
Speak softly and carry a big sword.

If you're leaving scorch marks, you need a bigger gun.

Happiness is a warm staff.

You can get alot farther with a charm person and a kind word than you will with a kind word alone.

Fight Smarter, not Harder.

In the absence of orders, find something and kill it.

Lets you and him fight.

Boom, Headshot.

Fair fights are for suckers.

If they can do it, I can do it too.

Part 2, which of the following is, in your opinion, the most awesome.

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/God-of-War-god-of-war-38284_1024_1158.jpg
http://anotherjoesixpack.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/james-bond.jpg

http://c2.api.ning.com/files/5Z6XpSCLUcu9TZrYv*M*uev8gTfyO15yGUkYziQc0Ge7-mZEFe8Y4ODHM4Yx-*UACqd6a3GVkPlIR*tK2AHfMki-yfcB4Q0E/batman33009.jpg

Part 3, in Princess Bride, which of the following was your favorite.
The Man in Black
Inigo Montoya
Fezzik
Miracle Max

More to come, probably (I have wasted lots of time, and I have work that needs doing).

Speak softly and carry a big sword.
agree
If you're leaving scorch marks, you need a bigger gun.
disagree
Happiness is a warm staff.
neutral
You can get alot farther with a charm person and a kind word than you will with a kind word alone.
agree
Fight Smarter, not Harder.
agree
In the absence of orders, find something and kill it.
strongly disagree

tied between the 1st and 3rd pic

and.....I have a confession: I have never seen the princess bride


How high powered we talking? Just the stats? Or are the classes optimized too?

If the classes are highly optimized too, ignore bards and such, you have a chance to have some fun with cheese.

The thing is, all bases are already covered so you'll probably step on their toes regardless. Unless you want to make a tank lockdown build (but meh, thats boring to me). That looks like about the only thing your party is missing. You can do that through crusader or fighter if you want, otherwise:

Dragonwrought kobold sorc (who uses ritual and other cheesy dragony goodness)
Any early entry Ur-priest build
DMM cleric (would be more of a melee dude, so probably not stepping on your party's cleric)
Tainted scholar
StP Erudite
Hellfire warlock with 1 level of binder (to ignore, con damage I think it is?)
ubercharger/shocktrooper
ruby knight vindicator (for swift action cheese)

All of those builds are (assuming they're optimized, i suppose you could do toned down versions of most) super powerful though, so be warned.

Its pretty OP builds from what I'm seeing, sense the DM's allowing everything

also, not familiar with StP Erudite


You should be a monk. With those stats, the problem of MAD is relatively moot. You really just have to decide what stats you want to be "not quite as awesome as the others but still pretty good."

I was thinking that, but because of my own home brewing, I will not play a monk unless I can play my barbarian/monk/drunken master/bear warrior and get the awesomeness of the build out of my system


Even with MAD fixed, monks still suck.

I vote for a battlefield control wizard. Go conjurer! Throw down fogs, clouds, orbs, and summons left and right! The sorcerer and possibly the cleric will appreciate the extra meatshields, while the troll, rogue, and ranger will love beating up on your flat-footed, tripped, nauseated, sickened, CON-damaged, frozen, blinded, and webbed enemies! The druid and you will be the best of friends, flooding the battlefield with bears, bears, and more bears. Even celestial bears!

Monks are just a challenge and awesome RP'ing for me, (I love monks JUST for RPing)

Ehhhh, maybe........... I just like the pathfinder conjurer so much X(

absolmorph
2010-02-16, 07:21 PM
Even with MAD fixed, monks still suck.

I vote for a battlefield control wizard. Go conjurer! Throw down fogs, clouds, orbs, and summons left and right! The sorcerer and possibly the cleric will appreciate the extra meatshields, while the troll, rogue, and ranger will love beating up on your flat-footed, tripped, nauseated, sickened, CON-damaged, frozen, blinded, and webbed enemies! The druid and you will be the best of friends, flooding the battlefield with bears, bears, and more bears. Even celestial bears!
Or you could go with fiendish bears, if you don't like the celestials!

Vallum
2010-02-16, 07:23 PM
Or you could go with fiendish bears, if you don't like the celestials!

But... I LIKE celestials

SaintRidley
2010-02-16, 07:27 PM
Vow of Poverty Druid/Planar Shepherd?

That one feels like fun for a purposely high-powered campaign.

Gnorman
2010-02-16, 07:35 PM
Vow of Poverty Druid/Planar Shepherd?

That one feels like fun for a purposely high-powered campaign.

Still has bears, so... acceptable.

tyckspoon
2010-02-16, 07:47 PM
iiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnteresting........why only 1 level of sublime chord btw?


Sublime Chord has its own Spells Per Day/Spells Known progression chart, which makes it a spellcasting class. That means it can be advanced by other "+1 level spellcasting class" prestige classes, like Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord + Mystic Theurge is a relatively simple means of getting 9th level arcane and divine casting) or Jade Phoenix Mage. You don't get the Chord class features, but most of them are fairly unimpressive, especially compared to also advancing an initiator class + JPM's class features.

Vallum
2010-02-16, 07:59 PM
Sublime Chord has its own Spells Per Day/Spells Known progression chart, which makes it a spellcasting class. That means it can be advanced by other "+1 level spellcasting class" prestige classes, like Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest + Sublime Chord + Mystic Theurge is a relatively simple means of getting 9th level arcane and divine casting) or Jade Phoenix Mage. You don't get the Chord class features, but most of them are fairly unimpressive, especially compared to also advancing an initiator class + JPM's class features.

ooooooooooh, thanks tyckspoon, that makes sense :)

Also, I'm becoming more and more inclined to a bard build..... I think it will enable me to be a good team player I think I'll go with the JPM build....

I just don't know what maneuvers I should get...

BRC
2010-02-16, 08:00 PM
ooooooooooh, thanks tyckspoon, that makes sense :)

Also, I'm becoming more and more inclined to a bard build..... I think it will enable me to be a good team player I think I'll go with the JPM build....

I just don't know what maneuvers I should get...
Bards are good when you have a big party. The effectiveness of the bard increases as the party gets bigger.

Flickerdart
2010-02-16, 08:05 PM
High powered, eh? Say, are you familiar with a certain Team Solars?

Vallum
2010-02-16, 08:06 PM
High powered, eh? Say, are you familiar with a certain Team Solars?
Team Solars?

Flickerdart
2010-02-16, 08:10 PM
Team Solars?
Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794). Nothing more needs to be said.

Vallum
2010-02-16, 08:12 PM
Team Solars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794). Nothing more needs to be said.

I'm slightly confused @_@
I'm not understanding how they are solars in the first place....

Glimbur
2010-02-16, 08:15 PM
ooooooooooh, thanks tyckspoon, that makes sense :)

Also, I'm becoming more and more inclined to a bard build..... I think it will enable me to be a good team player I think I'll go with the JPM build....

I just don't know what maneuvers I should get...

Second level of Sublime Chord is nice because it lets you turn Bardic Music uses into Caster Level as a move action. I'd rather have the capstone of Jade Phoenix Mage though.

Flickerdart
2010-02-16, 08:18 PM
I'm slightly confused @_@
I'm not understanding how they are solars in the first place....
Persisted Shapechange. It's all detailed extensively in the thread.

Superglucose
2010-02-16, 08:20 PM
Shapechange cheese.

Vallum
2010-02-16, 08:45 PM
Persisted Shapechange. It's all detailed extensively in the thread.

Aaaaaah, now I see, everything makes sense now :D


Shapechange cheese.

nah, I'll save that for the next campaign, when their's not another druid

randomhero00
2010-02-16, 08:54 PM
(note I haven't played one, so I may not have it exactly right) spell to power erudites are psion variants that can learn all wizard spells as psionic powers with a spellcraft check. They can also pretty easily (with cheese of course) have unlimited PP a day by casting this arcane spell between encounters. I forget the name, but it gives the caster 3 PP/lvl.

absolmorph
2010-02-16, 09:15 PM
But... I LIKE celestials
Then protect them by using fiendish bears!
Fewer injuries for celestials!

Draz74
2010-02-16, 09:22 PM
I may be too late to the party, but ...

With sky-high scores like that, I always recommend using a class that can actually do something with each one of them. Bard might qualify, but it's not what I think of when I think "MAD class."

Paladin could be fun -- you could be a Paladin who actually has decent INT and therefore decent skills. Or, a lot like the Paladin stat-wise but easier to optimize is Favored Soul.

Warblade is another favorite of mine, possibly with a Swordsage dip to take more advantage of high WIS. Use Charisma for Intimidate checks (take Imperious Command) -- now you're really getting good stuff out of every ability bonus.

You could also try to use your scores to redeem a dysfunctional class (like the Monk suggestion above). Dragon Shaman comes to mind.

Superglucose
2010-02-16, 09:59 PM
Aaaaaah, now I see, everything makes sense now :D

I was actually answering the question for you ;-)



nah, I'll save that for the next campaign, when their's not another druid
Psch, it's a Sorc/Wizard spell too. Go in via Incantatrix for persisted shennanigans.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-16, 10:06 PM
I have a set of Homebrewed gish classes if you're interested that a friend made.

They are called a Mancer. (Aeromancer, Pyromancer, Aquamancer Terramancer).
Depending on which version of mancer you get, you get differently flavored class abilities. Fly speed, burrow, double land speed, etc.
Each mancer has only 3 spells to choose from at each spell level. Generally, an offensive, a defensive, or a utility. They used to go up to 9th level casting, but gaining such things as Firestorm as a melee character immune to firedamage was considered to be too powerful. So they were edited to only have 6 levels of spells. But they still gain casting at the wizard rate (oversight I think).
The important thing, if your casting stat is high enough, you get 3 castings of ONE of your spells at each level, plus any bonus castings you might get.
Have a good Bab, d8 HD. Imbue weapon with elemental damage, later with elemental burst. A few fighter bonus feats. 25% immunity to SA and crit (stacks with fortification armor).

Additionally, each one has a different casting stat, and it's not always a mental stat. The casting stat for each variety of mancer was chosen off of the stat bonuses for each Genasi, so there's no Cha based casting. (off the top of my head: Dex, Int, Wis, Con)
Finally, a Genasi treat the appropriate mancer as if it is their favored class, not fighter.

If you're interested, send me a message, and I'll send you a copy of the class.

Vallum
2010-02-17, 12:27 PM
Psch, it's a Sorc/Wizard spell too. Go in via Incantatrix for persisted shenanigans.

Meh, its still getting on the Druid's shpeel :/
I like it, just will save it for later

I just have to come up with the bard build for this one....

also, I think I wont go with ToB maneuvers, (I'll have to talk to the DM on how he feels about ToB)... I WAS thinking dervish, but I'd hate to sack the spellcasting of sublime chord.... Anyway to progress the casting and melee of a bard w/o ToB? I might go with it, just want a back up plan if ToB is shot down.
Also, a way to use Dragon shaman with Bards?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 01:02 PM
Meh, its still getting on the Druid's shpeel :/
I like it, just will save it for later

I just have to come up with the bard build for this one....

also, I think I wont go with ToB maneuvers, (I'll have to talk to the DM on how he feels about ToB)... I WAS thinking dervish, but I'd hate to sack the spellcasting of sublime chord.... Anyway to progress the casting and melee of a bard w/o ToB? I might go with it, just want a back up plan if ToB is shot down.
Also, a way to use Dragon shaman with Bards?

Any gish prestige class if you can enter with pard, Abjurant champion is a good, though you might want another one. althougt I strongly suggest ToB, Jade Phoenix Mage is made awesomesauce, and hey! who doesn't like to explode when it hits the fan?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:04 PM
You say it's a high-power campaign, starting at level 5, yet there is a non-Wildshape Ranger in the party. Riiiiiiight.

Hmm. If the DM is actually allowing everything, you could play Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun is omnipotent.

A step down from that is something like this build I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7820957&postcount=49) which gets ludicrous amounts of actions and spells.

Around the same level is a Wizard 4/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Archmage 1 (PM me if you want the full thing).

Another step down would be a normal Tainted Scholar.

Another step down would be a Wizard using high-end prestige classes (Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Shadowcraft Mage).

A step further down is a Wizard using mid-range prestige classes, or a well-optimised Archivist or Spell to Power Erudite.

Then come the other primary casters.

So really, it's up to you how much power you want.



By the way, you asked about Spell to Power Erudite. Erudite is a class in Complete Psionic, near the end. It's basically the Wizard to the Psion's Sorcerer. What can break it is the Spell to Power variant, found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) With that, suddenly you can cast all arcane spells as well, which leads to brokenness (as at this point you're basically a better Wizard).

Ormagoden
2010-02-17, 01:41 PM
and.....I have a confession: I have never seen the princess bride


::Lostfang clutches his chest::

::Lostfang dies::

Vallum
2010-02-17, 03:48 PM
Any gish prestige class if you can enter with pard, Abjurant champion is a good, though you might want another one. althougt I strongly suggest ToB, Jade Phoenix Mage is made awesomesauce, and hey! who doesn't like to explode when it hits the fan?

I will if I can, I have to email the build to the DM....
anyone willing to type it out, I'm finding tid-bits of what going to be in it, ( Sublime Chord, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Snowflake Wardance, and the ToB material IF its allowed)

anything I'm missing?


You say it's a high-power campaign, starting at level 5, yet there is a non-Wildshape Ranger in the party. Riiiiiiight.


Supposed to, but not everyone who plays DnD is a power gamer...


::Lostfang clutches his chest::

::Lostfang dies::

WWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!?!?!?!?!!?
:crys over body:
I shall watch the movie, and...
:draws sword:
I SHALL AVENGE YOU!!!!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 04:59 PM
Are you sure you want to go into JPM as a bard? it wont progress your bardic music (which I assumes is needed for dragonfire inspiration song of the white raven and Snowflake wardance)
also you must enter Sublime chord at lvl 11 due prerequisites

I'll venure a sample build: Human
Warblade 1
Bard 2 (Use precococious aprentice to get level two spells)
Warblade 3
JPM 4
Sublime Chord 1
JPM the rest

Vallum
2010-02-17, 05:22 PM
Are you sure you want to go into JPM as a bard? it wont progress your bardic music (which I assumes is needed for dragonfire inspiration song of the white raven and Snowflake wardance)
also you must enter Sublime chord at lvl 11 due prerequisites

I'll venure a sample build: Human
Warblade 1
Bard 2 (Use precococious aprentice to get level two spells)
Warblade 3
JPM 4
Sublime Chord 1
JPM the rest

It just looked like the best option if I wanted to go melee w/ the bard, but I could go as buffer. I'm just trying to find my options for this bard is all.

Vallum
2010-02-19, 06:14 PM
Thank you all so much for your help with having me finally pick a class focus I can really dig :elan:

So, I'm having a hard time deciding to focus on melee or buffing... I'm leaning towards melee, (for ToB is win covered in amazing-sauce for melee), but the dragonfire inspiration +xd6's can really sway me to focus on buffing instead, and it fits so well with the character concept, (basically, his fluff involves him worshiping/revering to dragons and other mythical creatures for the source and strength of his magic in the epics and fables, mainly of dragons, (being his favorite), pursuing the world to discover all he can about dragons. It's why I was so curious about Dragon Shamans and seeing how I can make them work in this build... So anymore dragon I can add to this, the better :smallsmile: )

Acero
2010-02-19, 08:48 PM
dont go buffing. never fun.

No one has ever said, "Hey, did you see me cast that Owl's Wisdom!"

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-19, 10:10 PM
dont go buffing. never fun.

No one has ever said, "Hey, did you see me cast that Owl's Wisdom!"

How about:

"Hey, look, I can do +12d6 Sonic damage with every attack, and so can my party!"

That's what Dragonfire Inspiration does. And you don't have to neglect being able to melee effectively either. Snowflake Wardance = badass melee bard. White Raven Song = ToB maneuvers, with arguably best maneuver recovery system, PLUS the Dragonfire Inspiration.

It's not "Either Buff or be cool"

It's "I'll take the extra value meal with all of the above, please"

Pluto
2010-02-19, 11:25 PM
White Raven Song = ToB maneuvers, with arguably best maneuver recovery system
Well played.

Vallum
2010-02-20, 10:58 AM
How about:

"Hey, look, I can do +12d6 Sonic damage with every attack, and so can my party!"

That's what Dragonfire Inspiration does. And you don't have to neglect being able to melee effectively either. Snowflake Wardance = badass melee bard. White Raven Song = ToB maneuvers, with arguably best maneuver recovery system, PLUS the Dragonfire Inspiration.

It's not "Either Buff or be cool"

It's "I'll take the extra value meal with all of the above, please"

That's what I'd like to do :smallsmile:

Well... In that case...

Oh, before I forget, it would be a good idea to post the character


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name
Race: Silverbrow Human
Class: Bard 4/Warblade 1 (thinking about Bard 3/Warblade 2)

Stats

STR 20
DEX 20 = 19 + 1(lvl4)
CON 18
INT 16
WIS 14
CHA 20

Weapon: harmonizing echoblade (+1 longsword)
attack: 4 BAB + 5 STR + 1 Magic = 10
damage: 1d8 + 5 STR + 2 sonic (echoblade) + 1 magic = 1d8+8/hit
Shortbow
hit: +9
damage: 1d6
Dagger
hit: +9
Damage: 1d4+5
Mace, heavy
hit: +9
Damage: 1d8+5

boosts/options:
Inspire courage: +1 hit, damage, save/fear & charm
dragonfire insperation: instead of inspire courage normal effects, all allies & me gain +xd6 cold(atm being only 1d6, cold due to me being a silverbrow human)
Bolstering voice, stance: +2 will, +4/fear
tactical strike, maneuver: +2d6, adj.allies move 5 ft
Sapphire Nightmare Strike, maneuver: opp. flat-footed, +1d6 w/concentration check
Emerald Razor: Turn Melee Strike into touch attack
<<Was thinking about Steel Wind, it was a hard choice>>

Spells:
lvl 0/1/2
per/day -/4/1
know 6/3/2
Spell list: ???
<<IMPORTANT: DM has decided to have the 0-levels work like pathfinder's cantrips/orisons, meaning I can cast them as many times as I want>>

Feats:(flaws are not allowed :smallfrown: )
Melodic casting
Dragonfire inspiration
Song of the white raven

Skills:
Balance +8
Concentration +5 (don't need it other then one maneuver, thanks to melodic casting)
Diplomacy +13 (I'm going to befriend the $%!# out of you!)
Jump +7
Knowledge (arcana) +11
Knowledge (history) +8
Martial Lore +5
Perform (oratory) +13
Perform (sing) +7
Spellcraft +13/+15w/scrolls
Tumble +13
Use Magic Device +13/+15w/scrolls


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Suggestions/Critiques? I was unsure about the stats actually... Like, do I need my CHA to be 20 if I'm not going to far in bard? Would it be better in CON?
I also still have over 5k to spend on equipment... I'd love to boost my inspire courage and, thus, get my d6's for dragonfire inspiration

AKA: How can I make my extra value meal with all of the above? and should I change any of the above? do I want beef or chicken? can I get more fries? I'd rather have a milkshake then a soda.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-20, 11:04 AM
If you're evil, get Evil's Blessing (Elder Evils) for really high saves. Also look for other stuff that allows you to add multiple stats to stuff, it'll be more powerful than normal because your stats are so high.

Vallum
2010-02-20, 11:53 AM
If you're evil, get Evil's Blessing (Elder Evils) for really high saves. Also look for other stuff that allows you to add multiple stats to stuff, it'll be more powerful than normal because your stats are so high.
Sorry, CG for this guy... I can't RP evil well enough and be comfortable while doing. Example: KotOR I & II... Never had a point in the dark side... Jade Empire, open palm 100%, closed fist 0%... Mass effect full paragon, no renegade points, est.


But awesome suggestion non-the-less magic9mushroom, if this was an NPC, (like my other characters for my own personal play testing of my homebrew campaign and world), I'd take a look and see. I'm going to need help in another thread I'll make after I'm done with this, one of the topics I'll need to address is of how to play evil effectively so I can have my BBEG be the best and most evil that he can be.

Oh, btw, the ranger is being played by a newb magic9mushroom, it suddenly makes sense now why the ranger isn't a good variant, and is... guh, twf without going into scout or rogue...

Pluto
2010-02-20, 12:14 PM
Suggestions/Critiques? I was unsure about the stats actually... Like, do I need my CHA to be 20 if I'm not going to far in bard? Would it be better in CON?
Don't worry about Charisma.
All it does for you is grant an extra first level spell slot.

As far as levels, you look good for now, but you'll probably want at least 6 Bardic Music uses/day, just so you can use IC and DFI in most fights.
You'll probably find class levels cheaper than feats.
B4/W1/B2/WX works very nicely with Initiator level increases and BM uses/day.


I also still have over 5k to spend on equipment... I'd love to boost my inspire courage and, thus, get my d6's for dragonfire inspiration
Be sure to grab Inspirational Boost (level 1 spell) from the Spell Compendium. It means an extra d6 for your Dragonfire Inspiration. You'll probably want a [Eternal] Wand of this.

The Badge of Valor in the Magic Item Compendium. 1.2k for +1 IC. (It's in the Regalia of the Hero set)

A Masterwork Mandolin is cheap and adds an extra +1 to the attack bonus from IC (and Dragonfire Inspiration).


AKA: How can I make my extra value meal with all of the above? and should I change any of the above? do I want beef or chicken? can I get more fries? I'd rather have a milkshake then a soda.
I'd skip Melodic Casting with a Bard/Warblade, in favor of Eberron Campaign Setting's Music of the Heart (its effects are not specific to Eberron). It's another +1 to all Bardic Music effects (including IC)
You aren't going to have many spells and Inspire Courage Bonuses are going to be very important with this character.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-20, 05:55 PM
The above suggestions from Pluto will get you up to 5d6 for your Inspiration. That'll be pretty respectable, at least, and will give the TWF Ranger some actual damage output.

Charisma isn't all that good, because you aren't going to be taking any more levels in Bard. Due to Dragonfire Inspiration, your Warblade and Bard levels stack for Bardic Music and Inspire, which means you go Warblade and never go back.

Vallum
2010-02-22, 06:48 PM
The above suggestions from Pluto will get you up to 5d6 for your Inspiration. That'll be pretty respectable, at least, and will give the TWF Ranger some actual damage output.

Charisma isn't all that good, because you aren't going to be taking any more levels in Bard. Due to Dragonfire Inspiration, your Warblade and Bard levels stack for Bardic Music and Inspire, which means you go Warblade and never go back.

so why go even 4 levels in bard then?

Vallum
2010-03-24, 02:42 PM
Sorry for not posting in a while guys, but so far, my bard is going fantastically! The 5d6 cold damage to every attack to my allies is awesome, (magic missiles are amazing now). So far, anything we fight, dies a horrible, cold, miserable death!!!

Except against undead that is :smallsigh:

But anyways, I think I'll be heading towards the sublime chord/jade phoenix mage path and play the support/magic role, (we have to many melee guys, and I can't get in their to do any melee... Oh well, phenomenal cosmic power for me :smallbiggrin: )

So, my question is: what is the best path my bard/warblade can make to getting into Sublime Chord/Jade Pheonix Mage? It seems I'll need, at least, 7th level bard to get into Sublime chord? Anyway to get into it sooner, or the best way to approach the bard as a caster?