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View Full Version : Best light weapon in d&d 3.5?



sanji77
2010-02-16, 04:59 PM
So my character is a rogue/assassin/bard and I want him to duel wield two light weapons and I'm not sure which ones to give him. I was thinkin two crescent knives from Dragon Magazine 275 but im not sure. Any ideas? And I prefer no magic weapons, just any base weapons from any 3.5 book out there.

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 05:05 PM
For exotic weapons, the Kusuri-gama in DMG is quite nice. Basically its a Light Weapon version of the spiked chain- so you can trip, disarm, have reach and can still attack at normal range, etc.

Might depend on what you want- versatility? High damage? Simple weapon?

Cieyrin
2010-02-16, 05:05 PM
I've always had a soft spot for Eagle Claws from Sandstorm, as they're d6 18-20/x2 Slashing and Piercing, plus they have a feat so that they can be flurried. They're exotic, so you'll have to consider whether or not just stick with kukri or short swords and leave your feats open for the feat drain that Two Weapon Fighting chain is.

EDIT: Also, when I mean flurried, I don't mean make them monk weapons. I mean they can get an extra attack at a -2 to all, no class levels or any of that jazz, just proficiency and the extra feat to unlock flurrying.

Boci
2010-02-16, 05:10 PM
Hmmm...would bardic knack allow you to use iaijutsu focuse? Because then a quick razor could be useful. Apart from that, short swords are solid weapons and it saves a feat slot.

For raw power you are not going to find anything better than the cresent knives, but most DMs do not allow you to double your attacks with 1 feat for some reason.

sanji77
2010-02-16, 05:11 PM
I'm looking for a quick, high crit range light weapon

Person_Man
2010-02-16, 05:13 PM
Natural Weapons and Unarmed Strikes are light weapons, and can never be disarmed. They're also the easiest way of adding extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).

agumathebear
2010-02-16, 05:14 PM
Boci; im sanji's dm lol, and i dont care if he uses them. im pretty lenient about most of the rules. in fact, we have up to civil war guns as well in this campaign...just throwing it out there...

Boci
2010-02-16, 05:16 PM
I'm looking for a quick, high crit range light weapon

Kukri is nice and will save you a feat slot if you can gain martial weapon proficiency easily (maybe savage bard ACF). Apart from that, eagle claws are the only ones that spring to mind with a crit range of 18-20. Any particular reason you want to be a crit fisher? Because telling blow is overrated unless it can add SA again if you crit whilst flanking.

Aoart from taking eagle claws and eagle's fury (not recommended) however, mechanically no weapon is quick that I know of aside from the cresent knives.


Boci; im sanji's dm lol, and i dont care if he uses them. im pretty lenient about most of the rules. in fact, we have up to civil war guns as well in this campaign...just throwing it out there...

Okay, cool. Human blender time.

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 05:20 PM
I'm looking for a quick, high crit range light weapon

I'm not sure if there are many with a range better than 18-20.

Kusuri-gama has poor crit (x2) and poor range (20) so its probably not the ideal option in this case.

The Rose Dragon
2010-02-16, 05:23 PM
I'm not sure if there are many with a range better than 18-20.

Kusuri-gama has poor crit (x2) and poor range (20) so its probably not the ideal option in this case.

Bladed gauntlet, if it hasn't been updated to 3.5 anywhere, had a crit range of 17-20. With 3rd Edition's stacking of keen and Improved Critical, you could get the absurd crit range of 9-20. If you added on Vorpal, which could behead with every critical hit, rather than just a natural 20, you would be beheading anyone you hit.

sanji77
2010-02-16, 05:26 PM
Im tryin to dl sandstorm so i can look at this eagle claw. it sounds like that might be wat im lookin for.

And Rose Dragon, wat book/magazine is the bladed gauntlet from?

Cieyrin
2010-02-16, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure if there are many with a range better than 18-20.

Kusuri-gama has poor crit (x2) and poor range (20) so its probably not the ideal option in this case.

There were 2 weapons in 3rd that had 17-20/x2, though one got errata'd. The Stump Knife still does after getting a hit, but wielding two of them pretty much means you're crippled from doing anything else, since you lack hands...

Another option for the 1d6 18-20/x2 weapon without EWPing it up is to take a level of Dervish, which makes Scimitars light weapons for you. You have to go through the trouble of qualifying for Dervish but it sounds like it'd fit the character's concept, nonetheless.

EDIT:
Bladed gauntlet, if it hasn't been updated to 3.5 anywhere, had a crit range of 17-20. With 3rd Edition's stacking of keen and Improved Critical, you could get the absurd crit range of 9-20. If you added on Vorpal, which could behead with every critical hit, rather than just a natural 20, you would be beheading anyone you hit.

Man, ninja'd a bit. The Bladed Gauntlet was the other weapon I was talking about, though I'm fairly sure they errata'd it between printings of Sword and Fist. Either that or when it made the hop and skip over to Arms and Equipment Guide. I think it's only 19-20/x2 these days.

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 05:28 PM
Arms and Equipment Guide (also a 3.0 source, but a later one) updates the Bladed Gauntlet to 19/20 critical range.

it was originally in Sword & Fist.

Cieyrin
2010-02-16, 05:30 PM
Arms and Equipment Guide (also a 3.0 source, but a later one) updates the Bladed Gauntlet to 19/20 critical range.

it was originally in Sword & Fist.

Man, ninja'd while I was editing. Can't win any of 'em, can I? =/

hamishspence
2010-02-16, 05:38 PM
For those who want a secondary light weapon, the Braid Blade in Dungeon 120 is quite nice. 18-20/x2 crit, 1d3 damage, and when full attacking, with normal weapons, you get an extra attack with the Braid Blade.


It's at -5 to hit with the blade, unless you have 5 ranks in tumble, in which case it's at -2.

And doesn't penalize your base attacks.

And grants a +2 circumstance bonus on all Bluff checks to feint an opponent.

I think it got a reputation for being cheesy when people claimed you could have multiple braid blades, and attack with them all.

sanji77
2010-02-16, 05:39 PM
Alright. Eagle claw is officially my new favorite weapon. :biggrin: lmao and as for the dervish idea, my char is a bard who plates a lute. lol hes not a dancer so dervish wouldnt make sense for him. i mean its a really cool class and everything but i dont see my char being that.

the humanity
2010-02-16, 07:39 PM
I'm looking for a quick, high crit range light weapon

you can purchase scabbard of keen edges...which will give you a better crit range...or you can take improved critical :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2010-02-16, 08:40 PM
If you take a 1-level dip in Master of Masks, you can get the Gladiator Persona Mask, which gives proficiency with all exotic & martial weapons (as well as a +1 bonus to hit & damage with all weapons).

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-16, 09:27 PM
If your DM's willing to allow the Crescent Knife, go for it. That thing's more powerful than anything you're gonna see. Two simultaneous attack rolls on every attack? Doubles your sneak attacks right there.

If not, I'd suggest using the quickrazor from Races of Stone along with the Iaijutsu Focus skill from Oriental Adventures for what effectively amounts to extra Sneak Attack die against flat-footed opponents.

Since you're an assassin, I'd suggest ignoring crit ranges. Critical hits don't multiply Sneak Attack damage, so it doesn't help you much.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 09:49 PM
Since you're an assassin, I'd suggest ignoring crit ranges. Critical hits don't multiply Sneak Attack damage, so it doesn't help you much.
There's a feat that lets you get Sneak Attack on any Crit, even if enemy's not flatfooted/flanked.

Boci
2010-02-16, 09:51 PM
There's a feat that lets you get Sneak Attack on any Crit, even if enemy's not flatfooted/flanked.

Telling blow. But it does nothing if the target already is flatfooted/flanked so its generally not considered to be that powerful.

sonofzeal
2010-02-16, 09:54 PM
Telling blow. But it does nothing if the target already is flatfooted/flanked so its generally not considered to be that powerful.
Indeed. However, it's yet another way to trigger SA, and kicks in for many fights that are otherwise disadvantageous (enemy is aware of you, no flanking buddy, can't sneak away), which is the time you need it most.

JaronK
2010-02-16, 10:24 PM
Kukris are great because you don't have to blow a feat on them. Gnomish Quickrazors can be quite good too since they let you have a hidden weapon and work well with Iajuitsu Focus. Kusari Gamas give reach... hard to argue with the value of that.

JaronK

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-16, 10:27 PM
I'm fond of light picks. x4 crits are especially awesome if you have a good damage modifier.

Darrin
2010-02-16, 10:28 PM
Kusuri-gama has poor crit (x2) and poor range (20) so its probably not the ideal option in this case.

Drow Scorpion Chain has almost the same stats, but better crit range (19-20/x2, Secrets of Xendrik). You can pick it up with EWP and Weapon Focus with Planar Touchstone linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, pick the War domain. Vulkoor has it as a favored weapon (Secrets of Xendrik p. 72), but the Catalogues don't require you to worship any particular deity.

sanji77
2010-02-17, 01:12 AM
Alright so wat exactly is this "Iajuitsu Focus"? Wat does it do?

And im still debating whether to duel wield eagle claws or duel wield crescent knives. Eagle claw does more damage, and has a crit of 18-20/x2, but crescent knives get the double attack thing and only have a crit of x2. The gnome quickrazor is a good idea for an offhand weapon, but i would have to use either a shortsword, rapier, or a different simple weapon, because it would take up the exotic weapon feat and i dont wanna have to waste two spots.

Wat do yall think i should do???

Boci
2010-02-17, 08:00 AM
Kukris are great because you don't have to blow a feat on them.

Neither rogues or bards are proficient with them and assassins add no further proficiencies with weapons.


Alright so wat exactly is this "Iajuitsu Focus"? Wat does it do?

Whenever you attack a flatfooted opponent with a weapon you have just drawn, you deal extra bunch of d6 depending on the result.


And im still debating whether to duel wield eagle claws or duel wield crescent knives. Eagle claw does more damage, and has a crit of 18-20/x2, but crescent knives get the double attack thing and only have a crit of x2. The gnome quickrazor is a good idea for an offhand weapon, but i would have to use either a shortsword, rapier, or a different simple weapon, because it would take up the exotic weapon feat and i dont wanna have to waste two spots.

Unless your build has something to gain from critical hits, cresent daggers will be better.

Math_Mage
2010-02-17, 08:05 AM
Alright so wat exactly is this "Iajuitsu Focus"? Wat does it do?

And im still debating whether to duel wield eagle claws or duel wield crescent knives. Eagle claw does more damage, and has a crit of 18-20/x2, but crescent knives get the double attack thing and only have a crit of x2. The gnome quickrazor is a good idea for an offhand weapon, but i would have to use either a shortsword, rapier, or a different simple weapon, because it would take up the exotic weapon feat and i dont wanna have to waste two spots.

Wat do yall think i should do???

Take the one that lets you sneak attack more often. Increased crit chance (i.e. the *possibility* of getting extra attacks without stacking SA) doesn't beat the *certainty* of getting extra attacks *with* stacking SA (at least, if I'm interpreting comments about crescent knives correctly).

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 04:39 PM
The gnome quickrazor is a good idea for an offhand weapon, but i would have to use either a shortsword, rapier, or a different simple weapon, because it would take up the exotic weapon feat and i dont wanna have to waste two spots.
I'm still advocating a level in Master of Masks...that way you can be proficient in ALL exotic weapons, without blowing any feats. :smallwink:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 05:03 PM
Drow Scorpion Chain has almost the same stats, but better crit range (19-20/x2, Secrets of Xendrik). You can pick it up with EWP and Weapon Focus with Planar Touchstone linked to the Catalogues of Enlightenment, pick the War domain. Vulkoor has it as a favored weapon (Secrets of Xendrik p. 72), but the Catalogues don't require you to worship any particular deity.

Heard this many times before, where do I find it?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 05:28 PM
Heard this many times before, where do I find it?

If it isn't in the Planar Handbook, check WotC's site.

sanji77
2010-02-17, 05:54 PM
Idk, im still leaning towards the eagle claw. The d6 owns the d3 damage. I tried it out, and my average damage with duel wield eagle claws was like 12, and the average with crescent daggers was like 8. i mean of course that wasnt with the extra 5d6 damage i would get at my lvl for sneak attack but still..... btw im rogue 3/assassin 6/bard 2. my total bonus to attack is +12 for first roll, +12 second roll, +7 for third roll, and +2 for fourth roll. Is there any way i can maximize the bonus? Oh and where can i find master of masks?

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 06:20 PM
Master of Masks is in Complete Scoundrel. Prereqs aren't too bad, if you've got skill points to burn.

ericgrau
2010-02-17, 06:50 PM
Almost all of your damage is sneak attack damage. It seems silly to me to go for an extra 1-2 damage with a fancy weapon or 1/2 point of extra damage on average with better crits. I'd go with daggers so you can also throw them on a dex based rogue, or sickles so you can also trip on a strength based rogue. Throwing gives you a bunch of extra sneak attacks in round one if you beat any enemy's initiative, which you probably will even without improved initiative. Since most of your damage is sneak attack anyway, it won't matter that the thrown daggers probably aren't enchanted (your melee daggers may be). Tripping gives your opponent a -4 to AC and -4 AB, both key to a melee rogue who wants to hit with his medium AB and survive with his poor AC and HP. Using a weapon to trip like sickles doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity even without the improved trip feat, though the feat helps. Or the very minor loss in damage means you can use them to damage only for a while until you become a tripper later.

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 06:51 PM
As someone pointed out earlier, a good crit range is nice for sneak attacks if you have the Telling Blow feat.

ericgrau
2010-02-17, 06:55 PM
As I'm sure someone has pointed out before, Telling Blow seems like a trap. It only gives you a sneak attack 30% (ish) of the time, when there are other more reliable triggers out there. And these do not stack with Telling Blow. So either you have very unreliable sneak attack damage or you get another more reliable trigger and you have a wasted feat.

A while ago I did some melee optimization which assumed a 75% reliable sneak attack trigger (crit immune baddies were assumed to be among the 25%, for that matter), and rogues still fell behind the various full BAB classes. I know they have skills to make up for it but settling for 30% - and then only out of crit vulnerable baddies - doesn't seem to be trying all that hard to me.

Blas_de_Lezo
2010-02-17, 07:21 PM
Two kukris is what you seek.

1. It's cool.
2. Easy to conceive.
3. High crit range.
4. You can grab feats that apply to both (weapon focus, etc)
5. Damn kukris are so cool!!

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 08:55 PM
As I'm sure someone has pointed out before, Telling Blow seems like a trap. It only gives you a sneak attack 30% (ish) of the time, when there are other more reliable triggers out there. And these do not stack with Telling Blow. So either you have very unreliable sneak attack damage or you get another more reliable trigger and you have a wasted feat.

A while ago I did some melee optimization which assumed a 75% reliable sneak attack trigger (crit immune baddies were assumed to be among the 25%, for that matter), and rogues still fell behind the various full BAB classes. I know they have skills to make up for it but settling for 30% - and then only out of crit vulnerable baddies - doesn't seem to be trying all that hard to me.
True, but Telling Blow can often be less situational than other SA triggers. A lot of monsters (and some PC classes) are immune to flanking, and even those that aren't can often maneuvre so that flanking becomes impossible.

Of course, there are other SA triggers - primarily, denying the opponent it's DEX to AC. Lots of ways to do this, Grease, Invisibility, Blindness etc.

For my 2 cents, I consider Telling Blow worthwhile for a melee-heavy SA build; but you are right, that other methods can be equally or more effective.

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 08:57 PM
Two kukris is what you seek.

1. It's cool.
2. Easy to conceive.
3. High crit range.
4. You can grab feats that apply to both (weapon focus, etc)
5. Damn kukris are so cool!!
Kukris + Lightning Mace feat + aptitude weapons = profit! :smallbiggrin:

Sophismata
2010-02-17, 10:30 PM
Where are the Crescent Daggers located?

sanji77
2010-02-17, 11:10 PM
so wat does telling blow do exactly?

ericgrau
2010-02-17, 11:18 PM
Crits become sneak attacks.


True, but Telling Blow can often be less situational than other SA triggers. A lot of monsters (and some PC classes) are immune to flanking, and even those that aren't can often maneuvre so that flanking becomes impossible.

Of course, there are other SA triggers - primarily, denying the opponent it's DEX to AC. Lots of ways to do this, Grease, Invisibility, Blindness etc.

For my 2 cents, I consider Telling Blow worthwhile for a melee-heavy SA build; but you are right, that other methods can be equally or more effective.

When there are so many foes with improved uncanny dodge it is time to stop playing a fighting rogue. Like I said they already struggle to keep up in combat as it is. Worst case scenario instead of going melee you grab a bow, beat any of the monters on initiative and bam, full attack sneak attack. Since your typical combat is maybe 5 rounds, if that, that's already the most important 20% of the combat going to sneak attacks (probably more, since it's a full attack). Anything after that is gravy. Telling blow gives 30% evenly distributed across the whole combat, so it's probably no better. And a bow does it with 1 less feat. It is very difficult to find a situation where there isn't a better, featless option compared to telling blow. And even then it's probably best to give up on fighting too much and focus your build on something else.

EDIT: Oh, kukris are still great simply because I don't think the choice matters much if you only want to do melee damage and kukris are cool. :smalltongue:

sanji77
2010-02-18, 08:10 PM
Sophis: The crescent knife is an added exotic weapon found in Dragon magazine #275. There are a few other added exotic weapons as well

And everyone else, ive decided to go with crescent knives. It seems like thats the best way to go. With SA it will be f'ing awesome.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-18, 08:35 PM
Speaking of the master of masks, if you can convince your dm that you can get a weapon from an evil outsider (or be a kaorti, LA +4), have your eagle's claws be kaorti weapon, giving them a crit of x4! Kaorti weapons: Fiend Folio web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a)

now you have a flurryable 18-20 x4 weapon!

oonil2
2011-02-16, 07:11 PM
Bladed Gauntlet from the Sword and Fist book. Apparently it has two versions: the one I have is crit range 17-20/x2, cost 30gp, and counts as an armed slashing weapon. The other version is the same, but crit range 19-20. However, (if you can convince your DM to not pull any shinanigans), it's a *gauntlet*, and that means you can put one-handed weapons in your hands along with your gauntlet blades. Of course, that's logic-based, and who argues with logic in D&D?

Percival
2011-02-16, 07:17 PM
Why hasn't the rapier been mentioned? It's technically a light weapon, as it can be finessed.

nedz
2011-02-16, 07:31 PM
Alright so wat exactly is this "Iajuitsu Focus"? Wat does it do?
Whenever you attack a flatfooted opponent with a weapon you have just drawn, you deal extra bunch of d6 depending on the result.


So something like Quickdraw, Flick of the Wrist and the Hidden Blade and Sudden Draw Skill tricks to go with this then? That should give you an extra 2-3 Sneak/Iajuitsu triggers per encounter.

Where do we find Iajuitsu Focus BTW ?