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View Full Version : [3.5] A question for the DMs out there



Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-02-17, 02:02 AM
Maybe I should start off by warning everyone that my mind is very tangential, so bear with me...
Okay, so I'm on a Warlock kick (again) and it randomly popped into my head that an old acquaintance of mine used to call them the batman of D&D. Which made me think, of course, of the utility belt. Which led to me thinking of a belt of many pockets/belt of pouches(I think those are both things...) or what have you full of potions... anyway to cut down on the reading you poor people have to do I'll skip to the question: Would you, as a DM, allow a warlock to go into the Master Alchemist class even though one of the requirements is Spellcasting: Ability to cast 4th-level arcane or divine spells? My argument in favor of it is that a Warlock can, in theory, make potions using his invocations, and eventually he can just use a UMD check. None of the class features of the Master Alchemist actually use a specific spell, so I'd argue that the requirement should really be a caster level, which Warlocks do qualify for. At any rate, what thinkest thou?

Soranar
2010-02-17, 02:29 AM
I wouldn't allow it.

Brewing potions and such would essentially give you access to spells you don't normally have access to. And the whole point of warlocks is that they only have a few tricks, although as often as they want.

Sure you can do that through UMD but there is a steep cost to it (wands and such) compared to the class and a DM can decide what's available.

This would effectively circumvent that.

Also invocation doesn't , and shouldn't , progress like normal spellcasting. It functions in a completely different manner.

Shadowbane
2010-02-17, 02:31 AM
I wouldn't. The warlock doesn't have many tricks but he can use them unlimited times. That's how it works for him, and that how it should go. Letting him do that would ruin that, in my humble opinion.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Jon_Dahl
2010-02-17, 02:39 AM
I wouldn't. I torpedo all non-core vigorously.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-02-17, 02:43 AM
I wouldn't allow it.
Sure you can do that through UMD but there is a steep cost to it (wands and such) compared to the class and a DM can decide what's available.


At level 12 a Warlock can create any magic item he has the feat for by making a UMD check, like an artificer. (Better than, actually, for arcane items) So a mid-level Warlock can already make more magic items than, say, a wizard of the same level.

Soranar
2010-02-17, 03:20 AM
At level 12 a Warlock can create any magic item he has the feat for by making a UMD check, like an artificer. (Better than, actually, for arcane items) So a mid-level Warlock can already make more magic items than, say, a wizard of the same level.

making a magic item still requires the feat, the materials, the money and the xp

hardly free

and you also need to be a warlock 12 , no multiclassing allowed

Hallavast
2010-02-17, 03:25 AM
making a magic item still requires the feat, the materials, the money and the xp

hardly free

and you also need to be a warlock 12 , no multiclassing allowed

Same with a wizard. You wouldn't let a wizard take the class?

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-02-17, 03:30 AM
making a magic item still requires the feat, the materials, the money and the xp

hardly free

and you also need to be a warlock 12 , no multiclassing allowed

I didn't mean to imply that it was "free" at all... and I'm a little confused.... why can't the hypothetical warlock multiclass after 12th level?.... I don't think I'm understanding your argument correctly... maybe I need some sleep.... (apparently I just fell in love ellipses...)

At any rate, I guess Warlock isn't completely essential to the character concept, I just thought it'd be cool. Maybe Artificer would work just as well... or even a traditional spellcasting class, though honestly I tend to get bored with some of those and do crazy stuff just to spice it up a bit.

kamikasei
2010-02-17, 03:49 AM
I wouldn't. I torpedo all non-core vigorously.

Since both Warlock and Master Alchemist are non-core, that makes the entire question irrelevant rather than actually answering it.

Remind me, what does the PrC do again? If it just boosts magic item creation then, yeah, I wouldn't see any major problem with changing the requirements.


why can't the hypothetical warlock multiclass after 12th level?....

I think what was meant was that a wizard can make magic items with just his wizard casting and the feat, allowing him to take all manner of powerful or useful prestige classes, whereas since Imbue Item is a Warlock class feature they need to have twelve full levels in the base class - invocation-advancing prestige classes wouldn't help them out.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-02-17, 04:21 AM
Remind me, what does the PrC do again? If it just boosts magic item creation then, yeah, I wouldn't see any major problem with changing the requirements.

By the end of it you get to make up to 4 potions/day of up to 9th level spells, and you get +1 existing spellcasting class. (So continued invocations and EB damage dice for me, iirc from CA)(And since I'd be starting from 12th level that'd be 3/day and 7th level for me.)
EDIT: Oh, and you get a one-shot chance to identify potions more or less just by looking at them for a minute with an alchemy (so craft (alchemy) to update it) check at +10 DC.




I think what was meant was that a wizard can make magic items with just his wizard casting and the feat, allowing him to take all manner of powerful or useful prestige classes, whereas since Imbue Item is a Warlock class feature they need to have twelve full levels in the base class - invocation-advancing prestige classes wouldn't help them out.

Oh, okay. That makes sense. I'd probably have seen that if I'd slept in the last couple of days. Yay insomnia!

Killer Angel
2010-02-17, 04:23 AM
I wouldn't.

I agree


I torpedo all non-core vigorously.

:smallconfused:
..and the reason is? (please, don't tell me it's for balance)

Math_Mage
2010-02-17, 04:38 AM
I wouldn't. After all, everyone knows that the wizard is the Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) of D&D already, so bending the rules to make another Batman would just be redundant. :smalltongue:

[/joke]

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-02-17, 04:48 AM
I wouldn't. After all, everyone knows that the wizard is the Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) of D&D already, so bending the rules to make another Batman would just be redundant. :smalltongue:

[/joke]

Lol. I didn't particularly like "Batman" for this character concept, but "Highly Specialized Magical Grenade Man" just doesn't roll of the tongue quite the same way:biggrin:

Asheram
2010-02-17, 06:39 AM
Lol. I didn't particularly like "Batman" for this character concept, but "Highly Specialized Magical Grenade Man" just doesn't roll of the tongue quite the same way:biggrin:

Hmmm... The Punisher warlock... Would be an interesting build.

Thurbane
2010-02-17, 06:43 AM
I wouldn't. I torpedo all non-core vigorously.
Core only?!? That, sir, is badwrongfun! :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2010-02-17, 07:20 AM
I agree



:smallconfused:
..and the reason is? (please, don't tell me it's for balance)

I understand people not willing to allow non-core because they don't have the books. I can even understand not being willing to learn a new system like psionics or ToB or Incarnum (Silver Flame knows that last one has me baffled).
But yeah, I sure hope his reasons aren't for balance. :smalleek:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-17, 07:25 AM
I would not allow it. The reasons have nothing to do with core or non-core, but the simple fact that allowing incantations to count as spells is a rather big jump, and allows rather crazy shenanigans.

Basically, I see no real reason to give one character the strengths of a wizard AND of a warlock.

Vizzerdrix
2010-02-17, 07:25 AM
I hope it IS for balance. I could use a laugh this morning :smallamused:


I'd say go for it, but you'd need the required feats and Warlock-12. I'd even allow the use of wands to fill the spell vials. All your doing is taking the worst type of magic item and making it slightly better. Not much of a big deal when DMM persist clerics, Natural Spell Druids and OMGWTFBBQ wizards are running around.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-17, 09:49 AM
Wait, so you want to disallow it for balance reasons, making him enter the class as a wizard or artificer instead? :smallamused:

I'd allow it.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-17, 11:11 AM
Wait, so you want to disallow it for balance reasons, making him enter the class as a wizard or artificer instead? :smallamused:

I'd allow it.

Well, the thing is, if you can gain wizard powers as a warlock(a less crazy, but still reasonably powerful class in its own right), you are possibly more powerful than a straight wizard.

In addition, I have a general dislike of replicating existing options via homebrew unless those options are ludicrously crappy. Wizard entry, not being crappy, does not need to be replaced.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 11:15 AM
I understand people not willing to allow non-core because they don't have the books. I can even understand not being willing to learn a new system like psionics or ToB or Incarnum (Silver Flame knows that last one has me baffled).

Incarnum is confusing for me too, but I'm slowly grasping it. May I recommend a handbook? (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=551.0) :smallsmile:

Oslecamo
2010-02-17, 11:47 AM
By RAW it doesn't work, since warlocks can't actualy cast spells.

But since the warlock has really few Prcs for him, and potions are a suboptimal item maybe I would homebrew something if I was in a good mood.

This is, what's the worst that it can happen? Casting 4 9th level spells per day at level 20?