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View Full Version : Strongest wizard? (3.5)



Adamaro
2010-02-17, 05:02 AM
This is again, a rather silly question, but i read this comic book (Dylan Dog) and it has the most awesome character named Cagliostro in it. It is a black cat, owned by really sexy witch, but the fun part is, Cagliostro is no familiar. He is more like a lvl 100 familiar, accompanying a lvl 14 wizard. All he dabbles in is manipulation of reality, probability and shaping of fate. It is the most awesome character. :smallbiggrin:

So I was wondering - how strong can a wizard really get? (maybe in term of levels or described some other way)

Wings of Peace
2010-02-17, 05:16 AM
In D&D? Ignoring Pun-Pun and Mageverse scenarios (A lame name I know but I refuse to use the term Tippyverse. No offense meant to Tippy I just hate the name.) anything, given full freedom to do as they like. The Wizard at level 20 is capable of optimized right of taking on most Epic Level challenges.

kamikasei
2010-02-17, 05:16 AM
There's no level cap in 3.5. A wizard can keep gaining levels (assuming that he has some way of finding challenges that would let him gain experience, of course) for as long as his player can keep his eyes from glazing over.

Once a wizard hits level 21, he can take Epic Spellcasting and become more or less arbitrarily powerful (assuming you accept that certain commonly-cited tricks on these boards do work - your game may houserule them into invalidity, or you may just consider them to be invalid by the rules already) by bootstrapping himself up using custom epic spells that he casts at no appreciable cost to himself by summoning hordes of minions to help (and then making new, more powerful summoning spells and various personal buffs his priorities).

Aharon
2010-02-17, 05:23 AM
@kamikasei
curious here. I've never seen a debate about the legality of those tricks. What do you think is illegal about them?

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-17, 05:32 AM
This is again, a rather silly question, but i read this comic book (Dylan Dog) and it has the most awesome character named Cagliostro in it. It is a black cat, owned by really sexy witch

Called Kim, IIRC... :smallsmile:

kamikasei
2010-02-17, 05:39 AM
@kamikasei
curious here. I've never seen a debate about the legality of those tricks. What do you think is illegal about them?

I don't have an opinion on their legality, I just know not everyone does accept that they're legal. You've never seen it debated? That surprises me. I recall there being considerable disagreement over whether "fail your next Will save against the spell I'm about to cast on you" was a legitimate command to give a summoned/bound creature, for example.

I may be confusing objections to certain specific (specifically, Tippy-described) approaches for objections to inifinite-minion-mitigation in general, though.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 06:23 AM
A wizard can become arbitrarily powerful given arbitrarily much XP, but taking level 20 as a reasonable benchmark, I'll put forward Wizard 4/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Archmage 1 as an insanely powerful mage (and I do mean insanely, by the way :smallwink:). At blasting (Maximised, Empowered, Twinned, Energy Admixtured, Enervated, Searing Meteor Swarm out of a 5th level slot, anyone), save or die (unless you roll a nat 20, you're pretty much screwed) and utility (they can have just about literally everything prepared) they are very difficult to beat.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-17, 06:42 AM
Once any caster hits 21 and gets epic spellcasting they are exactly as powerful as they can be bothered being, before that you can dicker about with Simulacrum, Ice Assassins, Bound minions, Mindrape and timeganking to create a very similar level of power but as has been mentioned it then becomes complex, absurd, internally inconsistent (unless you're careful) and above all else... NO FUN!

3.5 is based around a gentlemens agreement in order to keep the magic part of it fluid, fun and versatile. Anyone can break it into little tiny pieces from level 1 upwards so long as they know what they're doing but if you've got a player who want's to do that frankly this engine isn't the game for them.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 07:12 AM
This man would like a word with you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Strange)

Adamaro
2010-02-17, 07:29 AM
This man would like a word with you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Strange)
Not subtle enough. I love Cagliostro, because in a conflict with say, Dr. Strange, the good doctor would be born and live out his life as a content and happy peasant, marrying a nice hillbilly girl. Instant reality alternation :smallcool:

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 08:01 AM
Not subtle enough. I love Cagliostro, because in a conflict with say, Dr. Strange, the good doctor would be born and live out his life as a content and happy peasant, marrying a nice hillbilly girl. Instant reality alternation :smallcool:

The problem with that is that Dr Strange, by all accounts, has epic magic powerful enough to allow him to channel deities.

This means that any of the following are possible:

(1) Shield his own reality using a deity of time.
(2) destroy pretty much anything he wants without the subject even knowing.

and more. Dr Strange's style of magic is epic, if epic casters were allowed to do whatever they wanted without making a check.

Wizards bend magic to their whim.
Dr Strange bends gods to his whim.

In a world ruled by dozens of people with the power to destroy the planet? This one is kept mostly on the sidelines. On the grounds that he's too powerful. In the world he lives in, Dr Strange is the power of plot. He is the wizard that did it.

The only other caster I'd possibly consider on par is Sarda.

Sorry, but I'm not buyin' what you're sellin'.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-17, 08:20 AM
The only other caster I'd possibly consider on par is Sarda.

Also, Dworkin of Amber, and Dream of the Endless.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-17, 08:36 AM
I'm not sure Dream of the Endless is a wizard. He's got ridiculous power, sure, but he's more like a god...or an avatar of an ideal...than a wizard.

Moglorosh
2010-02-17, 09:01 AM
The problem with that is that Dr Strange, by all accounts, has epic magic powerful enough to allow him to channel deities.
...
Sorry, but I'm not buyin' what you're sellin'.Didn't Dr. Strange get squeezed to death by some random evil entity?

Math_Mage
2010-02-17, 09:03 AM
Didn't Dr. Strange get squeezed to death by some random evil entity?

Well, he did say that Dr. Strange is "the power of plot," which means that if the plot reeeeally needs him to get strangled by some random evil entity, he's up to the task. :smalltongue:

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-17, 09:16 AM
Well, he did say that Dr. Strange is "the power of plot," which means that if the plot reeeeally needs him to get strangled by some random evil entity, he's up to the task. :smalltongue:

Exactly. He's also been knocked out by a child. He is whatever he is needed to be.

Usually, that's the all powerful caster.

Sometimes, when the mood strikes him, he fills every spell slot with Knock.

Flickerdart
2010-02-17, 02:15 PM
A wizard can become arbitrarily powerful given arbitrarily much XP, but taking level 20 as a reasonable benchmark, I'll put forward Wizard 4/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Archmage 1 as an insanely powerful mage (and I do mean insanely, by the way :smallwink:). At blasting (Maximised, Empowered, Twinned, Energy Admixtured, Enervated, Searing Meteor Swarm out of a 5th level slot, anyone), save or die (unless you roll a nat 20, you're pretty much screwed) and utility (they can have just about literally everything prepared) they are very difficult to beat.
And yet that won't stand up against Cindy's level of power. Inter-Wizard power dynamics are a different ballgame than caster/melee dynamics.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:24 PM
And yet that won't stand up against Cindy's level of power. Inter-Wizard power dynamics are a different ballgame than caster/melee dynamics.

You reckon, do you? I have Tainted Spellcasting and Shadow Illusion and you don't.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 03:06 PM
I like Transmuter 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Incantrix 10/ Red Wizard of Thay 2/Archmage 1 for sheer flavor.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 03:09 PM
I like Transmuter 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Incantrix 10/ Red Wizard of Thay 2/Archmage 1 for sheer flavor.

It's Incantatrix, not Incantrix.

Also, you have only Transmutation, Abjuration, Divination, and one other school available. Nice. Why don't you go Focused Specialist as well? :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 03:14 PM
I like Transmuter 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 2/Incantrix 10/ Red Wizard of Thay 2/Archmage 1 for sheer flavor.

Can't enter Archmage. Not enough schools.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 03:18 PM
Can't enter Archmage. Not enough schools.

Diversified Casting says he can. Also, if he waited until level 18 to take Red Wizard, he still has spells from schools that are now banned.