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magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 06:32 AM
I've seen references to the "big six" classes around here. Does this refer to Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Artificer and Erudite, or have I gotten it wrong?

Oslecamo
2010-02-17, 06:36 AM
I say you've got it pretty right. All those classes are the ones wich benefit from being able to learn an obscene number of spells

Amphetryon
2010-02-17, 07:18 AM
I believe the Erudite only qualifies via the Spell to Power variant, according to conventional wisdom. The classes you listed are correct other than picking that nit.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 08:10 AM
I believe the Erudite only qualifies via the Spell to Power variant, according to conventional wisdom. The classes you listed are correct other than picking that nit.

Favored Discipline Erudite is no pushover either. Adding every Psychometabolism or Psychoportation power in the game to your list, even Psywar and Ardent ones, can result in truly effective combinations.

This is especially true if you go with the RAW (read: broken) description of UPD - "unique powers per level per day," which gives them more available powers than they can possibly manifest.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 08:17 AM
Favored Discipline Erudite is no pushover either. Adding every Psychometabolism or Psychoportation power in the game to your list, even Psywar and Ardent ones, can result in truly effective combinations.

This is especially true if you go with the RAW (read: broken) description of UPD - "unique powers per level per day," which gives them more available powers than they can possibly manifest.

Not true, given infinite power point shenanigans. Manifesting 100 powers in a day is certainly possible, which is 1 more than their limit. But no, you wouldn't hit the cap by accident.

Erudite does have the saving grace (as far as balance goes) that you can't PrC your face off or you lose your awesomeness.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 08:20 AM
Not true, given infinite power point shenanigans. Manifesting 100 powers in a day is certainly possible, which is 1 more than their limit. But no, you wouldn't hit the cap by accident.

I was assuming at least a semblance of gentlemen's agreements :smalltongue:


Erudite does have the saving grace (as far as balance goes) that you can't PrC your face off or you lose your awesomeness.

That's no huge loss - most psionic PrCs suck anyway.

Ardent is the PrC king thanks to their PK mechanic, though you may have to make your own mantles to get all the powers you want.

KellKheraptis
2010-02-17, 08:44 AM
Even an Ardent has darn good reason to stick it out for 10 levels, given that Dominant Ideal allows them to apply metapsionic feats without losing psionic focus in their dominant mantle. I'm sure somewhere on here someone has built one to show how they can make even a wilder/anarchic initiate psion cry as a blaster, let alone the implications to a Chrono build.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 09:30 AM
Even an Ardent has darn good reason to stick it out for 10 levels, given that Dominant Ideal allows them to apply metapsionic feats without losing psionic focus in their dominant mantle. I'm sure somewhere on here someone has built one to show how they can make even a wilder/anarchic initiate psion cry as a blaster, let alone the implications to a Chrono build.

As Samb wrote both the Ardent and Wilder handbooks, he would be the best person to ask for a comparison - but then, I think you knew that. :smallsmile:

One of my favorite combos for Ardent is DI Ardent 10/Psion Uncarnate 10 - You get all the defensive benefits of being incorporeal with no drawback for your ML and PK. (You use your armor for AC instead of Charisma like other incorporeals, but Ardents have heavy proficiency anyway - and since you'll have no Strength score, you can safely dump it and still wear full plate.)

DI Ardent is high tier 3-low tier 2 for this reason, I believe.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 01:00 PM
Not true, given infinite power point shenanigans. Manifesting 100 powers in a day is certainly possible, which is 1 more than their limit. But no, you wouldn't hit the cap by accident.

He means that there aren't enough powers worth using to fill all 11/level/day. Seriously, who manifests Catfall?

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:13 PM
He means that there aren't enough powers worth using to fill all 11/level/day. Seriously, who manifests Catfall?

I hear you can use it to impress the furries ladies.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:17 PM
He means that there aren't enough powers worth using to fill all 11/level/day. Seriously, who manifests Catfall?

I know, I was nitpicking. With all arcane spells added to the list, though, it becomes more possible to hit the 11/level cap.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 01:18 PM
I hear you can use it to impress the furries ladies.

Impressing someone with Fail? Seriously, whoever had the brilliant idea to nerf Featherfall into Catfall deserves a pimp slap.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-17, 01:25 PM
Impressing someone with Fail? Seriously, whoever had the brilliant idea to nerf Featherfall into Catfall deserves a pimp slap.

In 3.0 Catfall was a "talent" which was the equivalent of cantrips for psionics. You could manifest talents for free a certain number of times daily if you instead expended psionic focus. Thus, the weakness makes sense. Unfortunately, they didn't improve it when it got updated to 3.5.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 01:39 PM
In 3.0 Catfall was a "talent" which was the equivalent of cantrips for psionics. You could manifest talents for free a certain number of times daily if you instead expended psionic focus. Thus, the weakness makes sense. Unfortunately, they didn't improve it when it got updated to 3.5.

And they never considered errata either...

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:51 PM
In 3.0 Catfall was a "talent" which was the equivalent of cantrips for psionics. You could manifest talents for free a certain number of times daily if you instead expended psionic focus. Thus, the weakness makes sense. Unfortunately, they didn't improve it when it got updated to 3.5.

That reminds me: StP Erudites are the only psionic class that can learn cantrips - they effectively become psi-like abilities, usuable X/day, where X = 3 + your class PP at first level.

I think they count towards your UPD, but I'm not sure. I have to say, though, that psionic prestidigitation would be worth it, even if so.

Draz74
2010-02-17, 01:53 PM
And they never considered errata either...

Well, they seem to have a (dumb) general policy against strengthening weak options by means of errata.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:54 PM
That reminds me: StP Erudites are the only psionic class that can learn cantrips - they effectively become psi-like abilities, usuable X/day, where X = 3 + your class PP at first level.

I think they count towards your UPD, but I'm not sure. I have to say, though, that psionic prestidigitation would be worth it, even if so.

They count towards UPD, but since the UPD is per power level, noone cares.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 01:59 PM
Yes - I can't imagine needing more than 11 unique cantrips per day, especially when they're all free manifestations.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:07 PM
Yes - I can't imagine needing more than 11 unique cantrips per day, especially when they're all free manifestations.

You can't anyway.


* 0-level spells cost no power points to manifest. Instead you may manifest a number of 0-level spells each day equal to three + the number of power points gained by that class at 1st level.

Which is less than 11, since Erudite gets 2 pp/day at first level and hence gets 5 "cantrips" per day.

Optimystik
2010-02-17, 02:11 PM
I was actually agreeing with you...

I know I'm sarcastic many times here, but that wasn't one of them.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:27 PM
I was actually agreeing with you...

I know I'm sarcastic many times here, but that wasn't one of them.

No, but you can't cast that many cantrips. You only get 5 cantrips per day. Not unique cantrips, you only get to cast 5 actual cantrips per day.

Pluto
2010-02-17, 08:39 PM
Is it just me, or is the "Big 5" a silly distinction?

All prepared casters can basically do anything they please and most have access to each others' spell lists.

Archivists, Artificers, Clerics, Druids, StP Erudites, Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Crafting Warlocks, Wizards and Wu Jen are all essentially interchangable when it comes to versatility and power.

Narazil
2010-02-17, 08:49 PM
Is it just me, or is the "Big 5" a silly distinction?

All prepared casters can basically do anything they please and most have access to each others' spell lists.

Archivists, Artificers, Clerics, Druids, StP Erudites, Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Crafting Warlocks, Wizards and Wu Jen are all essentially interchangable when it comes to versatility and power.
Erh, no. They're not. A Wizard is a lot more versatile and powerful than a Spirit Shaman or Crafting Warlock. There's the matter of progression - A Wizard will get his stuff (which is better) sooner than the rest, and so forth.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 09:24 PM
Is it just me, or is the "Big 5" a silly distinction?

All prepared casters can basically do anything they please and most have access to each others' spell lists.

Archivists, Artificers, Clerics, Druids, StP Erudites, Shaman, Spirit Shaman, Crafting Warlocks, Wizards and Wu Jen are all essentially interchangable when it comes to versatility and power.

Not really. The Wizard spell list is a hell of a lot more versatile than most of the alternatives, likewise the Cleric list (less so though). The Druid list isn't as powerful, but they have Wild Shape.

And the "big 6" really are just the prepared casters that aren't screwed by tiny spell lists.

Pluto
2010-02-18, 12:54 AM
Erh, no. They're not. A Wizard is a lot more versatile and powerful than a Spirit Shaman or Crafting Warlock. There's the matter of progression - A Wizard will get his stuff (which is better) sooner than the rest, and so forth.

We're talking about characters who have the perfect tool to solve every problem.
Squabbling over who has more tools for the same job is pointless.

[Though the Spirit Shaman and Druid are noticably lacking in terms of versatility, they have huge arrays of combat and summoning options. Some of the summons can help to make up for their lack of mind control, illusions and binding-like abilities.]

edit:
As opposed to classes like the Psion, Beguiler or Sorcerer which have to choose tools for specific problems.

lsfreak
2010-02-18, 11:00 AM
edit:
As opposed to classes like the Psion, Beguiler or Sorcerer which have to choose tools for specific problems.

That IS the distinction. The Big Six are the only ones that basically get free pick of anything. Druid is included mostly because it's two melee threats and a caster threat rolled into one, even if the casting isn't quite as good as cleric/wizard. The other 5 have the most varied and most powerful spell lists to choose from, and can redo their list every day. Warlocks, spirit shaman, wu jen, and the like, don't.

Gnaeus
2010-02-18, 12:05 PM
Druid is included mostly because it's two melee threats and a caster threat rolled into one, even if the casting isn't quite as good as cleric/wizard.

That is false.

A shapeshift druid, which has no animal companion and nerfed wildshape, is still ranked as a Tier 1. It is just clearly at the bottom of the big 6.

lsfreak
2010-02-18, 12:37 PM
That is false.

A shapeshift druid, which has no animal companion and nerfed wildshape, is still ranked as a Tier 1. It is just clearly at the bottom of the big 6.

Eh... I'd argue that. Lose animal companion and wildshaping and you still have a damn strong caster, but the wildshape is a lot of the versatility of the class and animal companion is one of the main methods of action abuse. You're still really strong without them, for sure, but you're still not on the level of the other T1's.

(I did word it poorly - druids are still T1, just on the lower end compared to the likes of wizards and archivists.)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 01:45 PM
Eh... I'd argue that. Lose animal companion and wildshaping and you still have a damn strong caster, but the wildshape is a lot of the versatility of the class and animal companion is one of the main methods of action abuse. You're still really strong without them, for sure, but you're still not on the level of the other T1's.

(I did word it poorly - druids are still T1, just on the lower end compared to the likes of wizards and archivists.)

The problem is the loss of Wild Shape. That class feature alone makes a single class jump one entire tier (Ranger), even when nerfed. The Animal Companion is equal to a Tier 5 class (Expert or Warrior, take your pick). The 9th level spell access is Tier 1, but their Spell list loses several very good options (Venomfire becomes nigh useless without an Animal Companion and Wildshape, for example). They still have some very powerful spells, but then end up being closer to the Spirit Shaman minus Spontaneity.

The Spirit Shaman is widely agreed to be either the top of Tier 2 or the bottom of Tier 1 because of it's unique spellcasting ability (psuedo-Prepared/Spontaneous). Turning the Druid into a nerfed Spirit Shaman puts it directly beneath that same class, so it's in the Limbo state.

Gnaeus
2010-02-18, 03:07 PM
The problem is the loss of Wild Shape. That class feature alone makes a single class jump one entire tier (Ranger), even when nerfed. The Animal Companion is equal to a Tier 5 class (Expert or Warrior, take your pick). The 9th level spell access is Tier 1, but their Spell list loses several very good options (Venomfire becomes nigh useless without an Animal Companion and Wildshape, for example). They still have some very powerful spells, but then end up being closer to the Spirit Shaman minus Spontaneity.

The Spirit Shaman is widely agreed to be either the top of Tier 2 or the bottom of Tier 1 because of it's unique spellcasting ability (psuedo-Prepared/Spontaneous). Turning the Druid into a nerfed Spirit Shaman puts it directly beneath that same class, so it's in the Limbo state.

Warrior is tier 6, not 5. It isn't even high tier 6, being clearly weaker than Samurai.

Shapeshift druids do still have shapeshift. Venomfire works perfectly well with shapeshift, as do most of their other combat buffs. They do lose the share spells with pet option, and a tiny handful of spells (enhance wildshape, heal animal companion).

But really, it is the close to 1000 spells to choose from that makes a caster tier 1. I am perfectly comfortable with S Shaman being regarded as a tier 1 for that reason.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:16 PM
Warrior is tier 6, not 5. It isn't even high tier 6, being clearly weaker than Samurai.

Shapeshift druids do still have shapeshift. Venomfire works perfectly well with shapeshift, as do most of their other combat buffs. They do lose the share spells with pet option, and a tiny handful of spells (enhance wildshape, heal animal companion).

Venomfire requires that the attacks have a Poison effect. IIRC, none of the natural weapons granted by Shapeshift deliver a natural poison.

Ashiel
2010-02-18, 03:26 PM
He means that there aren't enough powers worth using to fill all 11/level/day. Seriously, who manifests Catfall?

Well, considering that you can use the power to avoid being tripped; I would consider it merely different than Feather Fall. You can pop it for 1 pp as a swift or immediate action, and it will prevent the next 10ft of falling damage and prevent you from getting tripped (since you land on your feet regardless of how far you fall). It's rather thematic; and does have its uses.

The option to boost its fall reduction is an option, but really, how far do you plan on falling most of the time? :smalltongue:

EDIT: I've seen characters with this who look to use it pretty regularly. They foil tripping enemies and builds pretty handily. If something knocks them down, or even tosses them (IE - telekinesis or telekinetic maneuver or similar effects), they pop a PP and regain their footing.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:32 PM
Well, considering that you can use the power to avoid being tripped; I would consider it merely different than Feather Fall. You can pop it for 1 pp as a swift or immediate action, and it will prevent the next 10ft of falling damage and prevent you from getting tripped (since you land on your feet regardless of how far you fall). It's rather thematic; and does have its uses.

The option to boost its fall reduction is an option, but really, how far do you plan on falling most of the time? :smalltongue:

EDIT: I've seen characters with this who look to use it pretty regularly. They foil tripping enemies and builds pretty handily. If something knocks them down, or even tosses them (IE - telekinesis or telekinetic maneuver or similar effects), they pop a PP and regain their footing.

Considering everyone needs to fly, it makes sense to have a power that stops you from getting turned into chunky salsa. However, they could at least have made it "Augment: By spending 2 additional PP, you can instead reduce the falling damage by an amount equal to 2d6 per Manifester Level." That would make it equal to a 2nd level power that doesn't suck.

Ashiel
2010-02-18, 04:00 PM
Considering everyone needs to fly, it makes sense to have a power that stops you from getting turned into chunky salsa. However, they could at least have made it "Augment: By spending 2 additional PP, you can instead reduce the falling damage by an amount equal to 2d6 per Manifester Level." That would make it equal to a 2nd level power that doesn't suck.

Heh, I'll buy that. :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 04:04 PM
Heh, I'll buy that. :smallsmile:

It isn't that bad. It's certainly no more powerful than a racial trait (Raptorian and Dragonborn never suffer more than 1d6 Falling Damage thanks to their natural wings).

Ashiel
2010-02-18, 04:32 PM
It isn't that bad. It's certainly no more powerful than a racial trait (Raptorian and Dragonborn never suffer more than 1d6 Falling Damage thanks to their natural wings).

I think the reason I never found it so bad (and actually kind of cool) was I saw it as a recovery power first, and a falling reducer second. Not to put too much emphasis on fluff, but even its name implies (to me) more ability to recover from a fall than ignore one. Since you can use it X rounds before, or while you're being tripped, or knocked down, or tossed, or punted off a ledge, and still land on your feet ready to fight? Yeah, that was what made it useful and cool for me. :smallsmile:

Pluto
2010-02-18, 10:17 PM
That IS the distinction. The Big Six are the only ones that basically get free pick of anything.
See: Wu Jen, Warlock, and OA Shaman.


The other 5 have the most varied and most powerful spell lists to choose from, and can redo their list every day. Warlocks, spirit shaman, wu jen, and the like, don't.
Spirit Shaman, I'll give you.
I might even throw out the Druid because combat ability and Fey summons are rather poor substitutes for all the Illusions, Mind Control, Creation/Mass Crafting, Planar Travel, Fighters, Clerics and Rogues that Wizards, Archivists, Wu Jen, etc. have as class features.

Warlocks have access to every spell, ever. Even without the Artificer's metamagic, they can do anything with proper preparation. They're like Wizards, but more so.

Wu Jen are wizards with Spirit Binding in place of Planar Binding. Spirit Binding means Elemental Weirds as class features at level 11.

OA Shaman speaks for itself.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-18, 10:28 PM
See: Wu Jen, Warlock, and OA Shaman.

Respectively:

Spell list is quite small due to lack of support in other splats.
Has tiny spells known list.
Haven't seen it.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-18, 10:48 PM
Warlock is quite solidly tier 3 with some optimizing. Sure you get to craft a scroll of any spell, but you still don't learn it, and the other crafting options are quite poor(unless you can make custom staves)

It's like an artificer lite with some crappy class features...

Pluto
2010-02-18, 10:55 PM
Respectively:

Spell list is quite small due to lack of support in other splats.
Look at its effects.
See Spell Compendium page 4.
Compare it to a Wizard.
(Actually do this. Posting a blind response based on other peoples' blind responses is just silly.)
It can do 90% of the same ridiculous game-breaking things as the Wizard, even if it misses out on several combat options.
And then it has a spell array of its own.

Also, Spirit Binding + Elemental Weird means a level 18 Sorcerer as a class feature with a level 6 spell.

Has tiny spells known list.
Unlimited Crafting. Any scroll of any spell in any book.

Haven't seen it.
Think Cleric + Spirit Binding + Animal Companion + Divine Grace + Polymorph + crazy Domains (Giant Size and such) + More skills and bonus feats.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-18, 11:09 PM
Unlimited Crafting. Any scroll of any spell in any book.


And you are still subject to the normal crafting rules.
When was the last time you had a week to just sit around making scrolls?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 11:12 PM
Look at its effects.
See Spell Compendium page 4.
Compare it to a Wizard.
(Actually do this. Posting a blind response based on other peoples' blind responses is just silly.)
It can do 90% of the same ridiculous game-breaking things as the Wizard, even if it misses out on several combat options.

Elemental Weird means a level 18 Sorcerer as a class feature.

Unlimited Crafting. Any scroll of any spell in any book.

Think Cleric + Spirit Binding + Animal Companion + Divine Grace + Polymorph + crazy Domains (Giant Size and such) + More skills and bonus feats.

Keyword: Scroll. That's the kicker. Low Save DC, CL, and very limited uses/adventure. The Big 5 (discounting Artificer for the moment) get 40+ spells/day. Are you saying the ability to scribe any single scroll of any single spell 1/day (crafting limits) for 10 or so levels (approx 1 Month by my math) is equal in power AND flexibility to 120+ spells of a player's nearly limitless choice?


THAT is why Warlocks Tier 4. Do the math.

Pluto
2010-02-18, 11:17 PM
And you are still subject to the normal crafting rules.
When was the last time you had a week to just sit around making scrolls?
When was the last time you had a week to just sit around filling a spellbook?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 11:17 PM
When was the last time you had a week to just sit around filling a spellbook?

I'm actually a bit puzzled that neither of you have downtime. Do you not have downtime in your campaigns ever? Or between campaigns? Or in the middle of campaigns when you need to wait for something or need to rest and recuperate?

Pluto
2010-02-18, 11:21 PM
I'm actually a bit puzzled that neither of you have downtime. Do you not have downtime in your campaigns ever? Or between campaigns? Or in the middle of campaigns when you need to wait for something or need to rest and recuperate?

I do usually have downtime.
That was actually my [poorly-communicated] point.
The amount of downtime varies and the power and flexibility of the Archivist, Artificer, Warlock and Wizard vary with it.
Since 3 of these classes are assumed to have time to do whatever they like, I find it odd the fourth is not.

[edit:]

Are you saying the ability to scribe any single scroll of any single spell 1/day (crafting limits) for 10 or so levels (approx 1 Month by my math) is equal in power AND flexibility to 120+ spells of a player's nearly limitless choice?
Depends on downtime and situation.
But I would say it's comprable.
Either way, with forewarning, there isn't a problem a Archivist/Wizard/Warlock can't solve.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-18, 11:39 PM
I do usually have downtime.
That was actually my [poorly-communicated] point.
The amount of downtime varies and the power and flexibility of the Archivist, Artificer, Warlock and Wizard vary with it.
Since 3 of these classes are assumed to have time to do whatever they like, I find it odd the fourth is not.

[edit:]

Depends on downtime and situation.
But I would say it's comprable.
Either way, with forewarning, there isn't a problem a Archivist/Wizard/Warlock can't solve.

yes we also have the occasional downtime when we can prepare, but it is not an extremely frequent occurrence. since when do you need a week to prepare spells? And as sinfire said, they are scrolls. it is a nice ability, but it's not that amazing. Warlock is one of my favorite classes, but they are definitely not tier 1.

EDIT:

that argument is the same to anyone who has UMD and WBL. If you know what you are facing, even the rouge can prepare for it.

Akal Saris
2010-02-18, 11:41 PM
Here's a few reasons why the warlock isn't up there:

- Unlike the artificer and wizard, the warlock doesn't gain the crafting feats as bonuses - he has to take them to be good at it.
-It doesn't kick in until 12th level. Levels 1-11 he's still a T4 class.
-Unlike the artificer, the warlock doesn't gain "free" exp for his crafting. He'll be lower level than the "Big 6" classes just trying to imitate them, and he'll be spending most of his money to do what they do, as well as probably needing more down time to do that.
-Even with his crafting, the warlock can't enter some of the best wizard PrCs and gain those features, nor does he gain any of the tasty alternative class features of the wizard such as abrupt jaunt or spontaneous divination or rapid summoning.
-The tier system is subjective and mostly JaronK's opinion, and over time has come to be seen as gospel. In a game with 20 encounters per day and no escape through rope trick, etc, the warlock is probably preferable to a T1 class. I'd say the warlock is in fact baseline T3, because with the right invocations and UMD you have a LOT of mobility, defense, and control options, as well as utility as a face character and a decent amount of direct damage, and as UMD for anything else you really want. It's closer to the factotum than the rogue, IMO.

And you know what? The warlock is still a good and fun class with cool flavor and interesting mechanics, even if it's not typically as game-breaking as the top 5.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 11:50 PM
yes we also have the occasional downtime when we can prepare, but it is not an extremely frequent occurrence. since when do you need a week to prepare spells? And as sinfire said, they are scrolls. it is a nice ability, but it's not that amazing. Warlock is one of my favorite classes, but they are definitely not tier 1.

EDIT:

that argument is the same to anyone who has UMD and WBL. If you know what you are facing, even the rouge can prepare for it.

+1. Seriously, the time it takes for a Level 1 party of 4 to gain enough XP to level up is 2 months (assuming 4 encounters/day). Even if the Warlock spends 8 hours/night crafting while the party rests, he's only going to have so many scrolls. The Artificer, however, got a handy class feature called Craft Homunculous at 4th level, leaving him free to sleep while still making magic items (and does so 7-8 levels before the Warlock even gets his ability).

Pluto
2010-02-19, 12:17 AM
Warlock is one of my favorite classes, but they are definitely not tier 1.
...
-The tier system is subjective and mostly JaronK's opinion, and over time has come to be seen as gospel.
...
I think this is what's hanging me up.

I don't completely buy into JaronK's Tiers.

I think more in terms of:
--Has the Right Tool for Any Job.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for Many Jobs.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for a Job.
v.
--Has a Tool.
v.
--Uses its Hands

The number of types of problem a class can capably resolve or competently contribute to resolving are what make a class useful, IMO. Combat ability plays very little part.


The Warlock has the resources to dominate every encounter. With a bit of reconnaissance or divination, he can very easily have the Scrolls/Wands needed for any task. He's certainly not as strong in combat as the Druid, but when he has time to tap his resources, he can single-handedly dominate a wider array of challenges.

I won't argue that the Warlock is "Tier 1." It isn't, but I don't find that distinction meaningful.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-19, 12:21 AM
I think more in terms of:
--Has the Right Tool for Any Job.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for Many Jobs.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for a Job.
v.
--Has a Tool.
v.
--Uses its HandsShouldn't that be

"--Is a tool"?

Pluto
2010-02-19, 12:39 AM
Shouldn't that be

"--Is a tool"?

Ooo. I like that.
:smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:38 AM
Look at its effects.
See Spell Compendium page 4.

Which says "consider this advice". RAW leaves it blank and entirely up to the DM.

Tackyhillbillu
2010-02-19, 03:00 AM
I think this is what's hanging me up.

I don't completely buy into JaronK's Tiers.

I think more in terms of:
--Has the Right Tool for Any Job.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for Many Jobs.
v.
--Has the Right Tool for a Job.
v.
--Has a Tool.
v.
--Uses its Hands

The number of types of problem a class can capably resolve or competently contribute to resolving are what make a class useful, IMO. Combat ability plays very little part.


The Warlock has the resources to dominate every encounter. With a bit of reconnaissance or divination, he can very easily have the Scrolls/Wands needed for any task. He's certainly not as strong in combat as the Druid, but when he has time to tap his resources, he can single-handedly dominate a wider array of challenges.

I won't argue that the Warlock is "Tier 1." It isn't, but I don't find that distinction meaningful.

Jaronk's Tier system is a guide for DM's. What it is aimed at is alerting DM's to the ability of their player's character's to perform.

T1 is, breaks the Game World without even trying, in multiple ways. That's why the Big 6 are there. Warlock has a lot of tools, but they aren't game destroying in the same way as a Wizards.

T2 is, breaks the Game World without trying, but only in a couple of ways. Sorc is the baseline. Due to the limitations of the class, their options are very few, comparatively. However, they are still immensely powerful, and can destroy things fairly easily. T2 is the oddest of the categorizations, and the smallest for a reason.

T3 is, does one thing very well, and is useful the rest of the time. ToB and the Warlock. They have a versatile toolkit, and can be prepared for most anything. But they aren't going to go out and destroy the BBEG in round one.

T4 is, does one or two thing well, and that is about it. Rogue's are the archetypical examples. Sneak Attack is fairly powerful... when you aren't fighting things that are immune. Skills can be great, as long as you are in an adventure that uses them.

T5 doesn't really do the one thing they are supposed to do well, well. Fighter's. Without truly epic amounts of cheese, a single class fighter sucks.

T6, unless you are an optimization god like Schneeky, they will suck all the time. Everywhere. The CW Samurai.

Nonfunctional. The poor Truenamer ends up here.

---

Your ranking system is different from Jaronk's, but that doesn't make Jaronk's wrong. It is fairly well thought out, and can be very helpful, if used properly.

Pluto
2010-02-19, 03:17 AM
Which says "consider this advice". RAW leaves it blank and entirely up to the DM.
Even with a ruling to toss out the whole SpC, the Wu Jen is left with a wide spread of illusions, summons, bindings, teleports, enchantments, buffs, combat spells, polymorphs, utility spells, abjurations, and so on.

The only niche where a wu jen is not able to emulate a wizard is in divinations. It is still more versatile than a druid out of the box and it has access to most of the same PrCs as a Wizard.

[edit:]

Your ranking system is different from Jaronk's, but that doesn't make Jaronk's wrong. It is fairly well thought out, and can be very helpful, if used properly.I don't mean that JaronK is wrong or that the divisions I verbalized within about a 15-second span are The One Truth.
I just meant to better explain my perspective, not looking at brute power but instead at the division of spotlight.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 10:20 AM
Even with a ruling to toss out the whole SpC, the Wu Jen is left with a wide spread of illusions, summons, bindings, teleports, enchantments, buffs, combat spells, polymorphs, utility spells, abjurations, and so on.

The only niche where a wu jen is not able to emulate a wizard is in divinations. It is still more versatile than a druid out of the box and it has access to most of the same PrCs as a Wizard.

However, it lacks the support Wizards got outside of the Spell Compendium. Remember, most of those spells are reprints (actually, all of them are IIRC). If you find the original sources, the Wu-Jen gets nothing at all. Here's a nice start:

PHB
Draconomicon
Frostburn
Sandstorm
Stormwrack
Complete Arcane (gave more support to the Wizard than even the classes printed in it)
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Magic of Incarnum
Eberron splats
FR splats
Dragon Magic
Races of Stone
Races of Destiny
Races of the Wild
Races of the Dragon
PH2
Tome of Magic (yes, the Truename spells, some of them are worth casting)
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Heroes of Horror
Heroes of Battle
Lords of Madness
Libris Mortis


Compared to the following:

PHB
Complete Arcane
Complete Mage


Look at how many books the Wizard gets, compared to the Wu-Jen. The Wu-Jen gets 3 freaking books, and only two of those contain Wu-Jen only spells.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-19, 10:27 AM
The Wu-Jen is not weak, in the same way that Sorcerer is not weak. However, there's a significant power advantage in favor of the top six over either of these two. Spell availability is the main thing, though the big six also tend to have fun stuff available too, in the form of build options.

Doc Roc
2010-02-19, 10:55 AM
Warrior is tier 6, not 5. It isn't even high tier 6, being clearly weaker than Samurai.

Shapeshift druids do still have shapeshift. Venomfire works perfectly well with shapeshift, as do most of their other combat buffs. They do lose the share spells with pet option, and a tiny handful of spells (enhance wildshape, heal animal companion).

But really, it is the close to 1000 spells to choose from that makes a caster tier 1. I am perfectly comfortable with S Shaman being regarded as a tier 1 for that reason.

To be fair, enhance wildshape is an incredibly important and powerful option that represents a huge win for druids that's basically not open to anyone else. Beyond that, Wildshape is More Important Than You Think. I'm with Sinfire, here.


The Wu-Jen is not weak, in the same way that Sorcerer is not weak. However, there's a significant power advantage in favor of the top six over either of these two. Spell availability is the main thing, though the big six also tend to have fun stuff available too, in the form of build options.

The wu-jen is considerably worse than the sorcerer in my experience. Also, the power level of the sorcerer out-of-the-box with all books open is basically almost as high as that of the wizard if you're careful.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-19, 11:18 AM
The wu-jen is considerably worse than the sorcerer in my experience. Also, the power level of the sorcerer out-of-the-box with all books open is basically almost as high as that of the wizard if you're careful.

I disagree...not with the wu-gen - sorc comparison, but saying that the sorc is almost as high as the wizard. It's good, yes, but there's a significant differential between wizard and sorc with equal optimization.

Scrolls are the obvious first one. Wizards have them with only a trivial xp and gold investment, which makes extreme flexibility possible. This meshes well with the already dominant wizard flexibility, which sorcerers have to go to some lengths to improve(picking up sandstorm spells via prcs, MotAO, etc).

The sorcerer strength, on the other hand, volume of spells, is entirely balanced by specialist/focused specialist and scrolls without any significant loss on the part of the wizard.

Feats are hugely in favor of the wizard.

PrCs that require spells of a given school known are hugely in favor of the wizard. A sorc can't just dip loremaster easily for the extra feat, much as he needs it.

Being a level behind. I've never seen a PrC worth losing caster levels for, pre-epic. And yes, Ive seen the malconvoker. Not impressed. Being a sorcerer is a little like taking a PrC that sets your casting back.

Tar Palantir
2010-02-19, 11:25 AM
I disagree...not with the wu-gen - sorc comparison, but saying that the sorc is almost as high as the wizard. It's good, yes, but there's a significant differential between wizard and sorc with equal optimization.

Scrolls are the obvious first one. Wizards have them with only a trivial xp and gold investment, which makes extreme flexibility possible. This meshes well with the already dominant wizard flexibility, which sorcerers have to go to some lengths to improve(picking up sandstorm spells via prcs, MotAO, etc).

The sorcerer strength, on the other hand, volume of spells, is entirely balanced by specialist/focused specialist and scrolls without any significant loss on the part of the wizard.

Feats are hugely in favor of the wizard.

PrCs that require spells of a given school known are hugely in favor of the wizard. A sorc can't just dip loremaster easily for the extra feat, much as he needs it.

Being a level behind. I've never seen a PrC worth losing caster levels for, pre-epic. And yes, Ive seen the malconvoker. Not impressed. Being a sorcerer is a little like taking a PrC that sets your casting back.

A properly built sorcerer does have a significant advantage in metamagic use and early entry into prestige classes, thanks to Versatile Spellcaster. I'd still rule Advantage: Wizard, but not by as much as people seem to think.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 11:33 AM
A properly built sorcerer does have a significant advantage in metamagic use and early entry into prestige classes, thanks to Versatile Spellcaster. I'd still rule Advantage: Wizard, but not by as much as people seem to think.

Metamagic favors wizards actually. No increased casting time, no feats required to actually use it properly, and you just need to pick the spells carefully. Applying it on the fly is nice, but the Wizard can do the same thing via Uncanny Forethought.

Also, Complete Mage printed a feat that can apply Metamagic easier if you are a Specialist Wizard. Sorcerers have to give up a Familiar (an asset is used properly) and gain MAD to do the same thing (their ACF is Int-based).



The actual difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer is the action economy. Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge tip the scales toward the Sorcerer, as the Wizard has to jump through hoops to get those spells. It comes down to actions versus versatility. If you're fine with using less spells known in exchange for being able to nova very easily, Sorcerer is a slightly better choice. However, you need to know exactly what you are doing or else it will start backfiring in the long run.

With a Wizard, a bad spell choice today is just wasted pages tomorrow. That's a huge advantage. In terms of actual power, the Big 6 are not that far away from the next step down, but that step happens to be painful enough to deter most optimizers. Plus, Cha-focus isn't as good as an Int-focus mechanically.

Doc Roc
2010-02-19, 11:36 AM
There are ways to repick your spells, you know, and getting more isn't mind-crushingly difficult.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 11:44 AM
There are ways to repick your spells, you know, and getting more isn't mind-crushingly difficult.

Except you never have as many options as the Wizard does, and your methods of altering your spells known are very limited. PsiReform and Retraining can only do so many at a time (I think PsiReform is 1 or 2/manifestation, and retraining is per spell with a limited amount of timing). Yes, you can swap your spells every even level, but you have to wait and can only swap a total of 10 spells that way. Between those 10 spells, the Wizard can change his entire list of prepared spells dozens of times.


The difference is you're changing one or two spells/day with opportunity costs and limitations versus a Wizard's potential 40+/day nigh at will. The Wizard only ever pays Xgp for his spell list expansion, whereas you have to take a feat or prestige class level just to add new spells.

Every time someone cites PsiReform as a valid tactic to change your spells known, an Erudite eats a puppy.

Draz74
2010-02-19, 11:45 AM
Also, Complete Mage printed a feat that can apply Metamagic easier if you are a Specialist Wizard. Sorcerers have to give up a Familiar (an asset is used properly) and gain MAD to do the same thing (their ACF is Int-based).
Well, if we're talking about spending feats to make metamagic easier, the Sorcerer gets one in Complete Mage too, which he can use instead of the whole Familiar/Int-based ACF. It does mean he will suck at metamagic until Level 9, though (and of course, the Wizard gets more Feats).


Plus, Cha-focus isn't as good as an Int-focus mechanically.

Usually. If part of your character concept is, you know, good Bluffing, then advantage: Sorcerer. Duh. :smallsmile:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 11:49 AM
Usually. If part of your character concept is, you know, good Bluffing, then advantage: Sorcerer. Duh. :smallsmile:

Bluff checks mean nothing when you can just take a few Eternal Wands of Glibness.

Eorran
2010-02-19, 12:05 PM
It seems to me the gap between Wizard and Sorcerer lessens with less optimization. If you're coming into the game from 2e (which means you'll have an idea which spells are good, but won't know feats and metamagic very well), you'd probably play both classes pretty similarly.

Wizards are obviously more versatile, but I haven't had too many problems making a Sorcerer who has a useful spell for any situation. (Though the DM never put him into any truly insane situations either...)

Plus to paraphrase, "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

Eldariel
2010-02-19, 12:21 PM
It seems to me the gap between Wizard and Sorcerer lessens with less optimization. If you're coming into the game from 2e (which means you'll have an idea which spells are good, but won't know feats and metamagic very well), you'd probably play both classes pretty similarly.

Actually, if you come from 2e, you'll probably be at least initially surprised when thinking about good spells; on level 1 things are still pretty much the same - Sleep is king, etc.

But after that, things change totally; in 2e, you were casting Fireballs wiping out armies of Giants. Now you're casting Glitterdusts to blind said Giants. The level 1 paradigms of AD&D stick throughout your career in 3.X.

lsfreak
2010-02-19, 12:24 PM
I think people are starting to conflate 'numerical power' with 'tier.' It's not the same. You can build a 12th-level, Tier-5 character that can reliably drop a thousand damage a round without even getting into the 'really cheesy,' but that doesn't put them on the same Tier as a wizard. Such a character could be completely taken out by something as simple as obscuring mist.

It's the versatility, and the ability to break countless aspects of the game, that sets T1 apart from T2. Yes, sorcerers are probably the best novas there are, and they can certainly do just as much damage as a wizard, but in doing so you've limited yourself in ways a wizard doesn't have to.

Draz74
2010-02-19, 12:28 PM
Bluff checks mean nothing when you can just take a few Eternal Wands of Glibness.

Yeah, that works ... once you can afford it (Level 13 or so).

Plus, my post was mostly a joke anyway.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 12:35 PM
Yeah, that works ... once you can afford it (Level 13 or so).

Plus, my post was mostly a joke anyway.

Eternal Wands of a 2nd level spell can be bought at 4th or 6th level. They're not +4 Adamantine Greatsword expensive.

Draz74
2010-02-19, 12:37 PM
Eternal Wands of a 2nd level spell can be bought at 4th or 6th level. They're not +4 Adamantine Greatsword expensive.

Glibness is a Level 2 spell now? Yikes! What spell list is that on? (Beguiler?)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 12:41 PM
Glibness is a Level 2 spell now? Yikes! What spell list is that on? (Beguiler?)

Oh, my bad. Still, Eternal Wands of a 3rd level spell aren't that expensive. IIRC, they are less than 4K.

Edit: my bad, they're 10K in the ECS. Assuming the MiC lowered their prices, they should be affordable by 8th level or so.

Draz74
2010-02-19, 12:55 PM
Edit: my bad, they're 10K in the ECS. Assuming the MiC lowered their prices, they should be affordable by 8th level or so.

MIC has them as 10900 gp, and classifies them as a Level 13 item, which is where I got my statistic from. Yes, that probably means that you can get one at Level 9 or 10 if you really prioritize it ... but who prioritizes that hard for two social encounters/day? I think Level 13 is a more realistic time to afford it.

hamishspence
2010-02-19, 12:55 PM
Nope- prices of Eternal wands in MiC are exactly the same- maxing out at 10,900 gp for a wand of a 3rd level spell.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-20, 06:11 AM
I think people are starting to conflate 'numerical power' with 'tier.' It's not the same. You can build a 12th-level, Tier-5 character that can reliably drop a thousand damage a round without even getting into the 'really cheesy,' but that doesn't put them on the same Tier as a wizard. Such a character could be completely taken out by something as simple as obscuring mist.

It's the versatility, and the ability to break countless aspects of the game, that sets T1 apart from T2. Yes, sorcerers are probably the best novas there are, and they can certainly do just as much damage as a wizard, but in doing so you've limited yourself in ways a wizard doesn't have to.

This. While a Sorcerer can beat a Wizard in a fight (Arcane Spellsurge/Arcane Fusion, free levels, etc), there are lots more things that present no obstacle to a Wizard than there are that present no obstacle to any particular Sorcerer. Hence the Wizard will break a campaign more.