And As For The Elf....

[Gandariel]

let's look again at the conversation between the oracle and Belkar...
now.

do you think what the oracle said was true? i mean, did he really mean Belkar caused the death of Roy, Miko and Windstriker?
or do you think he did it just to get killed by Belkar? (thing i find very unlikely)

so (if the oracle didn't actually want to get killed) we can assume that the oracle really intended that Belkar had caused the death of Roy, Windstriker, Miko.
and he gives (plausible?) motivations...
BUT, right before being killed, he says "and as for the elf..."
what might he mean?

[Math_Mage]

Well, considering what has happened to that elf since we heard that bit of dialogue...

[Gandariel]

yes, but that happened LATER that conversation... belkar has still not caused hir death...

and anyway... death? V has done all the SoulSplice thing, but has not died...

[Fragenstein]

Consider the way Belkar phrased that. He asked if he would cause the death of any of the following ....someomeomeome... or you (meaning the oracle).

Any... or... The answer was 'yes', but killing only one person in that list would make the statement true. The oracle could have easily been messing with Belkar's head and trying to convince him that the prediction had already come true.

Why? 'Cause stabbings hurt, of course. The Oracle saw that he was going to die and made arrangements to have himself brought back, but that didn't mean he was looking forward to it.

Look at the final conversation between the two. Belkar admits that he's been convinced the prophecy is about to come true because he's going to kill the Oracle. That's when the orange one admits that it was a weak attempt at avoiding a painful future.

"Yeah... I wasn't really buying those theories either... worth a shot, tho..."

[Optimystik]

In brief - It is possible Belkar might yet cause V's death, but the way his question was worded does not mean he has to.

[mpollack]

Technically, the Oracle was correct. You can trace a line from the actions of Belkar to the deaths of the three characters, and to the actions of V. (In lawyer's terms, a but for test, though Roy and Miko might still have died had Belkar acted differently.)

We consider it a stretch because the line is pretty long and includes a lot of intervening events. After all, Belkar didn't force Roy to use the ring or force Xyxon to push Roy off a dragon. But I think the Oracle was trying to make a larger point: that Belkar (and other members of the party?) have to recognize that their actions have consequences beyond the immediate result.

As for the elf, I see two possibilities. You can stretch the definition of death to include the (temporary) death of V's soul. Or you can argue that the chain still continues, with V's actions having consequences still to come.

[Shale]

The oracle's larger point was what Fragenstein said - "See, you already fulfilled your prophecy! Now go away before you fulfill it by stabbing me!"

[Kurald Galain]

But I think the Oracle was trying to make a larger point: that Belkar (and other members of the party?) have to recognize that their actions have consequences beyond the immediate result.
I don't think he was, considering the Oracle is well aware that all his visitors will forget everything he said except for the actual answer, as soon as they leave Sunken Valley.

Rather, I think the Oracle was trying to talk Belkar out of killing him. Ironically, in doing so, he enraged Belkar into killing him. Which shows that you can be clairvoyant and still walk blindly into an obvious self-fulfilling prophecy. The oracle isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is.

[derfenrirwolv]

What it means is that the oracle was running from an almost plausible twisting of words (causing the death of roy by giving him the ring) to reaaaaly stretching it with miko and windstriker... and ran out of ANYTHING to say with the elf.

[FabuVinny]

According to the commentary, that scene was a deliberate send-up to misleading prophecies in fantasy fiction and how they are often resolved in unsatisfying ways after the fact. In this case, the prophecy was resolved by stabbing the oracle but our author had fun by misleading the genre savvy readers into thinking it had already been resolved.

So Belkar won't directly kill V but some action of his will have a rather loose link to V's death.

If it is a result of the Soul Splice - killed by Tiamat or Xykon or even the Order when posessed by the IFCC - my guess is that this is explained in #504 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html). The "event" in the Azure City New Year arc led to V focusing on pranking Belkar through the third book, which fueled the frustration in the fourth that eventually led to V accepting the soul splice and all the actions that came from there.

I'm sure there other loose links.

[Math_Mage]

So Belkar won't directly kill V but some action of his will have a rather loose link to V's death.


Why? Belkar's prophecy didn't say he had to be responsible for *everyone's* death, just one. He killed the Oracle. Stick a fork in the prophecy, it's done.

[Moriarty]

it doesn't actually have to be connected to Vs death. In Windstrikers case, the Oracle went so far as redefining "death", so we can assume his theory for V's death to be even more vague.

[hamishspence]

The difference being that the Oracle was in the middle of outlining a justification connected to Vaarsuvius, when Belkar interrupted.

We don't know what that justification would have been though.

[Turkish Delight]

Why? Belkar's prophecy didn't say he had to be responsible for *everyone's* death, just one. He killed the Oracle. Stick a fork in the prophecy, it's done.

You're using real world logic rather than plot logic. Real world logic says the prophecy is fulfilled, and that given the very meager links between Belkar and all the other deaths he was supposedly responsible for, even if it weren't fulfilled his connecton to V's death would likely be really flimsy.

Plot logic says that the odds of the interrupted sentence being a major spoiler and involving Belkar taking a very important role in V's death have shot up immensely by simple virtue of their having been interrupted. The shallowness of Belkar's role in the other deaths makes the last, unspoken sentence more likely to have depth to it, not less. This doesn't make it certain, of course, but my hunch is the Giant is setting us up for something that will turn that moment into very clever foreshadowing.

[Snake-Aes]

The difference being that the Oracle was in the middle of outlining a justification connected to Vaarsuvius, when Belkar interrupted.

We don't know what that justification would have been though.

Couldn't it simply be another attempt to convince him that his prophecy was fulfilled before stabbing ensued?

[TriForce]

You're using real world logic rather than plot logic. Real world logic says the prophecy is fulfilled, and that given the very meager links between Belkar and all the other deaths he was supposedly responsible for, even if it weren't fulfilled his connecton to V's death would likely be really flimsy.

Plot logic says that the odds of the interrupted sentence being a major spoiler and involving Belkar taking a very important role in V's death have shot up immensely by simple virtue of their having been interrupted. The shallowness of Belkar's role in the other deaths makes the last, unspoken sentence more likely to have depth to it, not less. This doesn't make it certain, of course, but my hunch is the Giant is setting us up for something that will turn that moment into very clever foreshadowing.

im pretty sure this isnt plot logic, its plot OVERKILL, it was meant to be a joke, plot had nothing to do with it, hell the reason it was cut off is likely the same as the reason we dont get to see V naked: it would kill the mystery

[Math_Mage]

You're using real world logic rather than plot logic. Real world logic says the prophecy is fulfilled, and that given the very meager links between Belkar and all the other deaths he was supposedly responsible for, even if it weren't fulfilled his connecton to V's death would likely be really flimsy.

Plot logic says that the odds of the interrupted sentence being a major spoiler and involving Belkar taking a very important role in V's death have shot up immensely by simple virtue of their having been interrupted. The shallowness of Belkar's role in the other deaths makes the last, unspoken sentence more likely to have depth to it, not less. This doesn't make it certain, of course, but my hunch is the Giant is setting us up for something that will turn that moment into very clever foreshadowing.

This would be true except that the Oracle was trying to convince Belkar that his prophecy had already been fulfilled. How do you foreshadow something by referring to events that have already happened?

[Turkish Delight]

im pretty sure this isnt plot logic, its plot OVERKILL, it was meant to be a joke, plot had nothing to do with it, hell the reason it was cut off is likely the same as the reason we dont get to see V naked: it would kill the mystery

"And as for the elf..." isn't funny. If the Giant threw it in as a gag, it's a rather odd gag.

[Turkish Delight]

This would be true except that the Oracle was trying to convince Belkar that his prophecy had already been fulfilled. How do you foreshadow something by referring to events that have already happened?

We actually don't know what he was going to say or whether he was still on the subject of those parts of the prophecy he considered fulfilled. It's entirely possible he about to say, "And as for the elf, you'll kill him in a couple of years by beating him to death with a rubber chicken." And of course, being the Oracle, he knew Belkar would interrupt him before he could say it, allowing him to have some fun laying down subtle foreshadowing while not spoiling anything for the humble readers.

All we know is, V is the only part of that prophecy left unaccounted for in even the most marginal way. It's possible that it means nothing, and if this were the real world it almost certainly would mean nothing. Within the story, the circumstances surrounding it lend force to the possibility that the prophecy is not entirely settled and something is coming up between Belkar and V that will end in the latter's death, though I suspect it will be subtle and nothing direct like a dagger in the face.

[Math_Mage]

We actually don't know what he was going to say or whether he was still on the subject of those parts of the prophecy he considered fulfilled. It's entirely possible he about to say, "And as for the elf, you'll kill him in a couple of years by beating him to death with a rubber chicken." And of course, being the Oracle, he knew Belkar would interrupt him before he could say it, allowing him to have some fun laying down subtle foreshadowing while not spoiling anything for the humble readers.

All we know is, V is the only part of that prophecy left unaccounted for in even the most marginal way. It's possible that it means nothing, and if this were the real world it almost certainly would mean nothing. Within the story, the circumstances surrounding it lend force to the possibility that the prophecy is not entirely settled and something is coming up between Belkar and V that will end in the latter's death, though I suspect it will be subtle and nothing direct like a dagger in the face.

You're going quite a bit out of your way to circumvent the text. What we know is that the Oracle was attempting to justify the conclusion that Belkar's prophecy had already been fulfilled. The Oracle suddenly deciding to go off on a tangent into the future does not become more likely just because you think it would be good foreshadowing if it did, not least because that would be terrible foreshadowing. Good foreshadowing doesn't have to make future implications explicit, but it almost never goes out of its way to state that it is dealing with the *past*.

[NerfTW]

I think it's pretty clear that since Windstriker's "death" was defined as "no longer being on this plane", that V's "death" was going to be even more symbolic.

Since Belkar was already tenuously connected to Roy's death, and V's obsession was a result of them having to split up to retrieve his body, we can VERY LOOSELY draw a line all the way to V leaving the boat and setting up the situation where he/she needed to make a pact with the fiends.

In this case, "death" refers either to the pivotal character change for V, or a subsequent calling in of the debt by the Fiends.

It wasn't mentioned because it hadn't happened in the strip yet. The prophecy was directly fulfilled by the death of the Oracle, and indirectly by the results of Belkar's actions on the other people mentioned. It's mentioned in the commentary that this was a send up of misleading prophecies. The Oracle was the only direct link. The others were supposed to be increasingly ridiculous.

[Turkish Delight]

You're going quite a bit out of your way to circumvent the text. What we know is that the Oracle was attempting to justify the conclusion that Belkar's prophecy had already been fulfilled. The Oracle suddenly deciding to go off on a tangent into the future does not become more likely just because you think it would be good foreshadowing if it did, not least because that would be terrible foreshadowing. Good foreshadowing doesn't have to make future implications explicit, but it almost never goes out of its way to state that it is dealing with the *past*.

What we know is that everyone Belkar asked about is accounted for except for one. We also know that that part of the prophecy was about to be accounted for in some way or another when the details were conveniently interrupted. So what are our possibilities?

We can assume the Oracle was about to describe a way in which the prophecy has been fulfilled for V....which, since V isn't dead, would take a stretch pretty extreme even within the context of the other deaths Belkar supposedly 'caused.' Or perhaps he was just about to say, "As as for the elf, you're absolutely right and the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled in his case, perhaps never will be." Possible, I'll grant, but remarkably dull.

Or we can just say that the Oracle was addressing the prophecy in general, now that he had cleared up those portions which were already obviously taken care of. Is it wild and insane, a complete stretch of the imagination, to picture a man who...say, asks if his car has been repaired and gets the reply, "Well, the air conditioning and the engine are working fine, but the shocks won't be fixed until tuesday"? I mean, technically, he wasn't asking about the future, he was asking about things already settled, right?

The Oracle was settling the account of his reliability. Informing Belkar of the specifics of when and where he will kill V would clear that issue up just as nicely as reciting a list of the dead people he's already responsible for.

There is a third possibility, if the above doesn't placate you. It's entirely possible that whatever Belkar did that will end in V's death had already been done at the time of the meeting with the Oracle. That is, the death had been caused, set in motion; it's just the long line of dominos that will eventually lead to V's grisly demise have not as of yet all come down. The Oracle was about to inform Belkar of this when he got knifed. This, I think, would be the most clever way to do it...though what Belkar might have done, I couldn't say.

Regardless, while V is alive, the prophecy is not settled and it's foolish to assume off-hand that it is. A comic world doesn't work in the same way as the real world.

[japandy42]

Most of you are arguing about ideas that are completely unsupported by the text.

The prophecy itself is done, fulfilled. There is nothing about the prophecy that indicates that V will die at all, and certainly nothing that indicates V will die due to any actions of Belkar's. The Oracle died, fulfilling the prophecy and ending its relevance.

BUT, the Oracle's comments to Belkar could be construed as foreshadowing of V's eventual death, and indeed probably are or else there's no reason for the line "as for the elf." There's no reason to think Belkar will have anything other than the loosest connection to V's death (though it is possible that it will be more than that). However, there is good reason to believe V will die, or else the Oracle would have had no reason to start that sentence.

That's it, period.

[TriForce]

"And as for the elf..." isn't funny. If the Giant threw it in as a gag, it's a rather odd gag.

the joke is that the oracle is trying to come with absolutly inane reasons, each worse then the other, to explain why the prophecy is already fulfilled, only to get stabbed anyway. also, my point stands, if you HAVE to look at it from a plot type of view, you should know that that line isnt finished becouse there never was a finish for that line in hte first place

[veti]

Technically, the Oracle was correct. You can trace a line from the actions of Belkar to the deaths of the three characters, and to the actions of V. (In lawyer's terms, a but for test, though Roy and Miko might still have died had Belkar acted differently.)

"Technically" correct... in the same sense as it's "technically" correct to say that Napoleon caused Hitler's death. (Must have done. Everything that's happened in Europe since Napoleon's time has been shaped by him, and that includes Hitler's death, ergo...)


We consider it a stretch because the line is pretty long and includes a lot of intervening events. After all, Belkar didn't force Roy to use the ring or force Xyxon to push Roy off a dragon. But I think the Oracle was trying to make a larger point: that Belkar (and other members of the party?) have to recognize that their actions have consequences beyond the immediate result.

You give the Oracle far too much credit. The only "larger point" he's trying to make is that Belkar's original question was stupidly phrased, and it serves him right that the information he got out of it was so vague as to be meaningless.


As for the elf, I see two possibilities. You can stretch the definition of death to include the (temporary) death of V's soul. Or you can argue that the chain still continues, with V's actions having consequences still to come.

How would you argue that the Darth-V episode was Belkar's doing?

[Gandariel]

The difference being that the Oracle was in the middle of outlining a justification connected to Vaarsuvius, when Belkar interrupted.

We don't know what that justification would have been though.

that's exactly what i mean.

[Raging Gene Ray]

How would you argue that the Darth-V episode was Belkar's doing?

By REALLLLLLLLY stretching things. Ya know, like the Oracle was doing. He'd already argued Miko's fall was Belkar's fault AND redefined death. Just a little further...and...

"If you hadn't killed the birds the elf used to contact you..."

Yes, it was Haley who shot them. But maybe Belkar pointed them out?

Or you could blame Belkar for killing the Azurite guard, getting the MoJ, and making it necessary to carry around Roy's entire body instead of just breaking off a toebone. This, in turn, enabled Celia to head to Grubwiggler and accidentally have it turned into a bone golem, delaying the trip to Cliffport where Haley COULD have contacted V and nipped the whole drama with the dragon in the bud.

[Gift Jeraff]

It was already pointed out how Belkar could have been connected to Darth Vaarsuvius: V him/herself blames his failure at the Battle of Azure City on wasting time getting revenge on Belkar for "The Event" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), thus leading to his/her fallout with Elan and Durkon, thus allowing for the Ancient Black Dragon to attack V and his/her family, plus leaving V with no good option besides fiendish assistance.

Another thought occurred to me: Perhaps the Oracle was cut off because he would presumably know V's actual gender and would probably reveal it in his explanation?

[DaveMcW]

"And as for the elf... I can't think of any way to connect you to his death."

Which is why the gag required Belkar to kill the Oracle before he finished the sentence.

[Thoran]

"And as for the elf... I can't think of any way to connect you to his death."

Which is why the gag required Belkar to kill the Oracle before he finished the sentence.

Exactly, the gag was that each one of the oracle's justifications was more unbelievable than the previous one, until you get to V where there IS no justification.

[Zevox]

Why? Belkar's prophecy didn't say he had to be responsible for *everyone's* death, just one. He killed the Oracle. Stick a fork in the prophecy, it's done.
True, but the Oracle apparently had an excuse for how Belkar would "cause" V's death ready to use in his doomed attempt to avoid his own painful death. Which at least indicates the possibility that V will die, even if the explanation for Belkar causing it would have been utterly laughable. (And really, the Oracle had already hit that point with Windstriker, as he had to redefine death in order to make that one sound even in the least bit possible.)

Zevox