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rockdeworld
2010-02-17, 11:43 AM
"Excuse me sir, but are you perhaps a user of the arcane art? If so, I would very much like to challenge you to a duel."

The robed caster turned to see who was speaking. Before him stood a strangely dressed man with a rapier at his waist.

"Unless you wish to be reduced to ash, I suggest you step away." He said. "One such as yourself would be helpless before my power."

"Try me." The man said with a grin, and drew his weapon.

One minute later, the caster was on his knees, eyes rolling up into his skull.

"How... how did none of my spells affect you?" He groaned.

The man smiled. "Magic doesn't bother me too much."


Mad Monty
There's not much that can be done with AC in core (especially without items), but I tried to think of how to optimize someone's touch AC so that even No-Save spells would fail to affect him. The result costs about 493,000gp (mostly from tomes), but it can be done. The challenge then was balancing that character's offense and defense. Here's what I came up with.

Race: Human

Abilities:
Str 10
Dex 14 + 3 Level + 5 Tome + 6 Item = 28 (+9)
Con 14
Int 14 + 4 Tome + 6 Item = 24 (+7)
Wis 13 + 2 Level + 5 Tome + 6 Item = 26 (+8)
Cha 8

Classes:
1 Monk - Improved Initiative, (Monk) Stunning Fist, (Human) Dodge
2 Monk
3 Cleric (Travel, Trickery) - Weapon Finesse
4 Cleric
5 Cleric
6 Cleric - Mobility
7 Cleric
8 Cleric
9 Duelist - Combat Expertise
10 Duelist
11 Duelist
12 Duelist - Improved Feint
13 Duelist
14 Duelist
15 Duelist - Any
16 Rogue
17 Rogue
18 Rogue - Any
19 Rogue
20 Rogue

Travel domain grants Fly, Trickery grants Bluff (and Invisibility). Improved Feint is for the rogue's sneak attack. A few more items can be added for a bit of customization.

Initiative: +15
Touch AC (normal): 35
Touch AC (fighting defensively): 47
Stunning Fist: +25, Fort DC 28
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Normal Attack: +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage: 1d6 (weapon) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 1d6 (precise strike) = 5d6

Saves:
Fort: 10 (class) + 2 (Con) = +12
Ref: 11 (class) + 9 (Dex) = +20 (note: and Evasion to boot)
Will: 10 (class) + 8 (Wis) = +18

~PEACH

Starbuck_II
2010-02-17, 11:46 AM
Why the Monk?

SpikeFightwicky
2010-02-17, 11:54 AM
NM, missed your level 1 feat... It looks like you're missing a feat at first level. Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus), WF: Unarmed Attack (Human Bonus), but no non bonus 1st level feat.

Telonius
2010-02-17, 12:00 PM
Monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level 1. (That +1 BAB requirement is one thing I always, always waive as a houserule, but RAW? No. :smallfurious:).

Totally Guy
2010-02-17, 12:04 PM
Monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level 1. (That +1 BAB requirement is one thing I always, always waive as a houserule, but RAW? No. :smallfurious:).

My pet hate too.

Is there really no "unaffected by magic (of type x) for good or for ill" type feat or class feature?

Mongoose87
2010-02-17, 12:08 PM
I don't see what's so special about this.

Greenish
2010-02-17, 12:13 PM
1 Monk - (Human) Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Strike

9 Duelist - Weapon Finesse: Rapier
:smallconfused:

I've always been under the impression that you don't have to take Weapon Finesse for each weapon individually, but that once taken it applies to all the qualified weapons.

Eldariel
2010-02-17, 12:14 PM
:smallconfused:

I've always been under the impression that you don't have to take Weapon Finesse for each weapon individually, but that once taken it applies to all the qualified weapons.

This is true. It was different for 3.0 though hence why lots of people (me included) often get confused.

Boci
2010-02-17, 12:19 PM
Baleful polymorph, finger of death, glitter dust. High touch AC stops some spells, but there are plenty that that do not really on an attack roll, and some that do not allow a save either.
Also, quickened true strike.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 12:48 PM
Agree with Boci. Optimising touch AC is pointless for anti-casters unless you also optimise saves.

Boci
2010-02-17, 12:52 PM
Agree with Boci. Optimising touch AC is pointless for anti-casters unless you also optimise saves.

And in core at level 20, you better hope the caster hasn't heard of the gate spell.

IthilanorStPete
2010-02-17, 01:11 PM
It's not even that high of AC, either...

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 01:36 PM
Why the Monk?

Duelist...


Seriously.


1: Your saves are extremely low.
2; You are vulnerable to Summoned monsters.
3: Your method of dealing with Solid Fog/Black Tentacles/Summon Monster 3 is very limited in use (Freedom of Movement 1/day for 1 round/Cleric level, which is 6 for you).
4: You still lose to Time Stop novas.
5: Glitterdust [/thread]
6: Pyrotechnics [/thread]
7: Even considering your defenses, you're damage output is pathetic (5d6 at 20th level, with an attack bonus of +25). And your BAB is off (you should have a BAB of +15 at most, so no 4th attack unless you are able to Flurry with a Rapier).






This build is nigh worthless, even in an arena matchup (because any optimized Core build will ruin you in 2 rounds flat).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:41 PM
Also;

Maw of Chaos. Have fun dying.

Melamoto
2010-02-17, 01:43 PM
The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
Use Exceptional (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) and Infinite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs


As far as I am aware, no caster trick can hurt you. You are immune to anything that allows SR, can deflect any ranged attack of any kind, and can dismiss any summoned goons the caster may pull out.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 01:47 PM
The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm)
Use Exceptional (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) and Infinite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs


As far as I am aware, no caster trick can hurt you. You are immune to anything that allows SR, can deflect any ranged attack of any kind, and can dismiss any summoned goons the caster may pull out.

You seriously think that's the extent of a Caster's power? MDJ=Match. Seriously, even Epic magic items aren't immune to that spell. Oh, and you're talking about custom magic items too, which (if allowed) the caster will have 5 levels before you will.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 01:48 PM
The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL
Use Exceptional (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) and Infinite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs


And then you get killed by casters that can automatically bypass SR, or spells which allow none. Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.

Superglucose
2010-02-17, 01:52 PM
And in core at level 20, you better hope the caster hasn't heard of the gate spell.
Or Shapechange. Shapechange would do it too.

Indon
2010-02-17, 02:12 PM
Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.

Actually, with the deflection line of feats, this would be by far a preferable strategy, with the interest of deflecting it back on the attacker.

Barring gross exploitation of epic spells (which require you to have an explicitly permissive DM), it's possible to get very strong defenses against magic. In fact, this rather leads to a very real problem for casters in epic campaigns, as without gross exploitation of epic spells (because normal, unexploitative epic magic use is fairly weak) they can end up underpowered against their opponents.

Honestly, though, it's possible to have great defenses against magic. Hell, the Monk, one of the weaker classes in the game, has some of the best defenses against magic.

It's just that the game is so overwhelmingly oriented towards offense that even the best defense won't make your character particularly powerful in the long run.

Melamoto
2010-02-17, 02:15 PM
And then you get killed by casters that can automatically bypass SR, or spells which allow none. Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.
Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.


You seriously think that's the extent of a Caster's power? MDJ=Match. Seriously, even Epic magic items aren't immune to that spell. Oh, and you're talking about custom magic items too, which (if allowed) the caster will have 5 levels before you will.
Forgot about MDJ; I'll admit, you have me on that one. The only protection I see is to buff up your Will Saves and hope for the best.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the second part.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:30 PM
Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.

No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 02:33 PM
Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.


Forgot about MDJ; I'll admit, you have me on that one. The only protection I see is to buff up your Will Saves and hope for the best.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the second part.

I don't think there's a magic item that provides perfect Spell Immunity. However, the Custom Magic Item rules allow this. If those rules are allowed, guess who gets to abuse them first? The people who can use the Item Crafting feats. All of a sudden, a Wizard can get access to magic items that produce an At Will Prismatic Sphere, MDJ, Time Stop, and Astral Projection all in the same round. For less than 200K.

faceroll
2010-02-17, 02:34 PM
Also;

Maw of Chaos. Have fun dying.

I don't recall seeing that spell in the Player's Handbook....

Melamoto
2010-02-17, 02:39 PM
I don't think there's a magic item that provides perfect Spell Immunity. However, the Custom Magic Item rules allow this. If those rules are allowed, guess who gets to abuse them first? The people who can use the Item Crafting feats. All of a sudden, a Wizard can get access to magic items that produce an At Will Prismatic Sphere, MDJ, Time Stop, and Astral Projection all in the same round. For less than 200K.

But apart from MDJ, I'm pretty sure none of those can hurt a decently optimized epic level melee character who has nigh-infinite SR, can remove any summoned creatures from play and has immunity to ranged attacks.


No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.
Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character. And you can just fly out of the lava.

The only major flaws I see is that you are weak vs. MDJ, and that you still can't hurt a caster anyway.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:40 PM
I don't recall seeing that spell in the Player's Handbook....

Neither did I.

I didn't see most of the Epic rules in Core either. :smallwink:


But apart from MDJ, I'm pretty sure none of those can hurt a decently optimized epic level melee character who has nigh-infinite SR, can remove any summoned creatures from play and has immunity to ranged attacks.

You're wrong.

Firstly, Dispel Magic can suppress magic items.

Secondly, exactly what is he going to do against Forcecage or created creatures with Finger of Death as a (Su) or the Moon being dropped on him?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 02:48 PM
Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character. And you can just fly out of the lava.

The only major flaws I see is that you are weak vs. MDJ, and that you still can't hurt a caster anyway.

You're wrong there. You can take more than 20d6 damage. The 20d6 is the maximum from distance. The damage from weight is uncapped. You would therefore take about 100000000000000000000d6 damage, which should be fatal.

Zeta Kai
2010-02-17, 02:49 PM
Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character.

Tell that to Chewbacca.

Indon
2010-02-17, 02:51 PM
No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.

I don't think any of that is RAW.

Eloel
2010-02-17, 02:53 PM
Secondly, exactly what is he going to do against Forcecage or created creatures with Finger of Death as a (Su) or the Moon being dropped on him?

In order;
Any teleportation thingy that doesn't require LoE
Ridiculous saves
Suck the 20d6 damage. He has at least triple that. And then there's the fact that all damage that comes from stuff being dropped onto you has a Reflex to avoid. Guess who has a high save?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-17, 02:57 PM
In order;
Any teleportation thingy that doesn't require LoE
Ridiculous saves
Suck the 20d6 damage. He has at least triple that. And then there's the fact that all damage that comes from stuff being dropped onto you has a Reflex to avoid. Guess who has a high save?

1: Of which the above character has none.
2: Of which the above character has none.
3: Not the above character.



Follow up the Moon with Atropus.

Eloel
2010-02-17, 03:01 PM
1: Of which the above character has none.
2: Of which the above character has none.
3: Not the above character.



Follow up the Moon with Atropus.

The question was about the hypothetical epic character (the one with high SR due to custom item) - so were the answers.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 03:05 PM
I don't think any of that is RAW.

The falling damage from the Moon is RAW, and creating the Moon above someone's head is also RAW by abuse of Epic Spellcasting. Not being able to deflect the Moon is RAW as well. The planet being melted is not RAW, but I was being facetious.


Suck the 20d6 damage. He has at least triple that. And then there's the fact that all damage that comes from stuff being dropped onto you has a Reflex to avoid. Guess who has a high save?

It doesn't mention a Reflex save to avoid in the sections of the DMG or SRD on Falling Objects. And while he can tank 20d6 damage, as I have already stated I doubt he can tank 100000000000000000000d6.

Melamoto
2010-02-17, 03:13 PM
You're wrong there. You can take more than 20d6 damage. The 20d6 is the maximum from distance. The damage from weight is uncapped. You would therefore take about 100000000000000000000d6 damage, which should be fatal.
Really? Because I was under the impression that...

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 03:21 PM
Really? Because I was under the impression that...

There is a full stop between the sentences. It does 1d6 per 200 pounds (uncapped) and then adds 1d6 per 10 feet fallen (max 20d6).

Greenish
2010-02-17, 03:35 PM
I have already stated I doubt he can tank 8.09945x10^20d6.Fixed. You were off by orders of magnitude. (Assuming you used a moon similar in size to the one orbiting Earth, if not, I apologize.)

[Edit]: That's not counting falling damage.

Melamoto
2010-02-17, 03:38 PM
There is a full stop between the sentences. It does 1d6 per 200 pounds (uncapped) and then adds 1d6 per 10 feet fallen (max 20d6).

I think this is starting to head into sketchy interpretations. I think that although there is a full stop, the statement placed in brackets was added at the end deliberately to show that it covered the whole paragraph, as it couldn't be a sentence by itself and it also could not be placed in both of the sentences, or else it would imply that it applied to each of them individually. I'm going to suggest leaving this point for now, lest we end up with a few pages worth of reasons why one interpretation makes more sense than another.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 03:51 PM
Fixed. You were off by orders of magnitude. (Assuming you used a moon similar in size to the one orbiting Earth, if not, I apologize.)

[Edit]: That's not counting falling damage.

I did, and a factor of 8 is not "orders of magnitude" in my book. I'm fairly sure I put 20 zeros after the 1. I certainly intended to.

Indon
2010-02-17, 03:56 PM
The falling damage from the Moon is RAW, and creating the Moon above someone's head is also RAW by abuse of Epic Spellcasting. Not being able to deflect the Moon is RAW as well. The planet being melted is not RAW, but I was being facetious.
Ah, okay, making an object the size of the moon might do it.

Throwing the moon would probably involve an attack roll, which is what I thought you were referring to.

Edit: I presume that epic conjuration can conjure in midair, unlike normal conjuration. Considering the seeds are assigned to schools and would otherwise follow the rules for those schools, I'd like confirmation as to where that's noted.

Greenish
2010-02-17, 04:03 PM
I did, and a factor of 8 is not "orders of magnitude" in my book. I'm fairly sure I put 20 zeros after the 1. I certainly intended to.Yes, I fail at math. I dunno what I was thinking.:smallredface:

Sir Giacomo
2010-02-17, 04:03 PM
Concerning the OP:
The idea to maximise touch AC vs caster attacks is not that bad - but it should be accompanied by a much more effective way to foil spell attacks: concealment (best: total concealment).

This can effectively negate almost everything a core caster can throw at you, although you need to find ways to effectively fight in such an environment (having stealth skills, blind-fighting and seeking missile weapons are ways to do this). Also, some casters may find ways to still function in such an environment as well - but most will have a hard time.

You can get concealment with fairly cheap items, like wands of obscuring mist, horn of fog, eversmoking bottle. These are also good in that even true seeing does not help against them (unlike, say, illusionary darkness).

- Giacomo

DementedFellow
2010-02-17, 04:10 PM
Isn't magic missile capable of still hitting this character?

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-02-17, 04:27 PM
It doesn't mention a Reflex save to avoid in the sections of the DMG or SRD on Falling Objects. And while he can tank 20d6 damage, as I have already stated I doubt he can tank 100000000000000000000d6.

It's in Heroes of Battle atleast... DC15 Reflex save to negate damage, ridiculous, but RAW just like the rogue in the 5x5ft room hit by a fireball. Besides Traps that drop stuff on you still give you a will save

Glimbur
2010-02-17, 04:32 PM
Isn't magic missile capable of still hitting this character?

Assuming NI SR, then no. Magic Missile allows SR.

There are ways to attack that don't allow SR or saves. Called Monsters have already been mentioned. Acid Fog and its ilk are another example. Most amusingly, there is a spell called Hail of Stone in Spell Compendium that does damage with no save and no SR in an area. Fell Drain it and apply damage boosting metamagics and things can be killed.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-17, 04:49 PM
You can get concealment with fairly cheap items, like wands of obscuring mist, horn of fog, eversmoking bottle. These are also good in that even true seeing does not help against them (unlike, say, illusionary darkness).


Isn't that sort of a double-edged sword?

Glimbur
2010-02-17, 04:58 PM
Isn't that sort of a double-edged sword?

Hypothetically, if the anti-caster has Blindfight and the caster does not, then concealment is helpful.

Concealment less than total doesn't have any affect on targeted spells, by my reading. It is certainly not very helpful against area attacks, like Black Tentacles or Glitterdust.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-17, 05:08 PM
Hypothetically, if the anti-caster has Blindfight and the caster does not, then concealment is helpful.


Sorta hoses partymembers without blindfight though...

Glimbur
2010-02-17, 05:14 PM
Sorta hoses partymembers without blindfight though...

Especially rogues. Oh, the poor innocent rogues suddenly deprived of sneak attack.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-17, 05:18 PM
Especially rogues. Oh, the poor innocent rogues suddenly deprived of sneak attack.

That said, Fog-like effects can be very useful for any party. It's just the fact that it's centered around you that makes Obscuring Mist a little unwieldy.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 06:21 PM
Edit: I presume that epic conjuration can conjure in midair, unlike normal conjuration. Considering the seeds are assigned to schools and would otherwise follow the rules for those schools, I'd like confirmation as to where that's noted.

Hmm. Forgot about that. There is a nonepic spell that creates in midair, called Cometfall (that's where I cribbed this idea from). It's 6th level. Hence, the factor for creating in midair should only be +4 or so (the epic spell rules do encourage you to stretch things, after all). You could alternatively (if you think that's pushing it) shape it to have a tiny pillar supporting the Moon which is then eliminated by the destroy seed.


It's in Heroes of Battle atleast... DC15 Reflex save to negate damage, ridiculous, but RAW just like the rogue in the 5x5ft room hit by a fireball. Besides Traps that drop stuff on you still give you a will save

That's for catapult shots, what about for other falling objects?

Soranar
2010-02-17, 07:44 PM
Yeah about the whole moon thing. I keep seeing it on the boards and it bugs me.

As far as I know you need to see a target to use a spell on it (or an area).

So unless you can find a way to teleport yourself to another plane or planet while dropping the moon on someone, you're dying from your spell. The moon is big enough so that you're always in the area of effect.

And considering you'd be destroying so many people at once (from destroying a planet), I can guarantee some kind of divine intervention from an avatar (at least) to smite you where you stand (destroying a planet is evil imo). Before you have the time to finish said spell.

A spellcaster is only as strong as a DM allows him to be.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-17, 07:53 PM
Yeah about the whole moon thing. I keep seeing it on the boards and it bugs me.

As far as I know you need to see a target to use a spell on it (or an area).

So unless you can find a way to teleport yourself to another plane or planet while dropping the moon on someone, you're dying from your spell. The moon is big enough so that you're always in the area of effect.

And considering you'd be destroying so many people at once (from destroying a planet), I can guarantee some kind of divine intervention from an avatar (at least) to smite you where you stand (destroying a planet is evil imo). Before you have the time to finish said spell.

A spellcaster is only as strong as a DM allows him to be.

Make the spell itself contingent (that way you don't have to bring all the ritual casters along), also give yourself a contingent teleport triggered on casting it. That does the trick.

Or fire it from space.

Soranar
2010-02-17, 08:02 PM
Make the spell itself contingent (that way you don't have to bring all the ritual casters along), also give yourself a contingent teleport triggered on casting it. That does the trick.

Or fire it from space.

Doesn't fix the small problem of greater Gods being annoyed with you.

ericgrau
2010-02-17, 08:08 PM
When shooting for the moon unarmored AC does tend to do it better, but you don't need to actually be a monk. A monk's belt works just fine.

Anyway I've seen this done before for core only and IIRC the winner was 70-90 AC, depending on whether or not you allow defending weapons to stack with each-other. The trick is to start with an Astra Deva Angel due to their high natural armor and wisdom, all at ECL 20. Though, ya, +15 natural armor doesn't help touch AC. OTOH SR 30 and the ability to cast heal on yourself (regardless of your own SR) is handy against no save spells.

Akal Saris
2010-02-17, 08:23 PM
OK, so I googled it just to make sure my memory was correct, but why are you naming the character after an obscure muppet?

rockdeworld
2010-02-17, 09:52 PM
NM, missed your level 1 feat... It looks like you're missing a feat at first level. Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus), WF: Unarmed Attack (Human Bonus), but no non bonus 1st level feat.
Thank you and the several posters who followed - the OP has been fixed.

For those who don't think he has high saves, check the OP again. Only fort is below +18. High enough for level 20?

And what can a wizard shapechange into (in core, mind) that can hit an AC of 60+ (if we include Ring of Deflection, Armor Bracers, Natural Armor Amulet, and/or an Ioun Stone) to kill this guy? That's not a challenge, I'm sure it can be done, however shapechange isn't all it's cracked up to be. There's AMF (for shapechange) and banishing on items for summoned monsters. I think a Ring of Counterspelling with Greater Dispel Magic, or a Spell-storing weapon with Dispel Magic can deal with that sort of thing as well. After Monty uses stunning fist on a wizard, it doesn't really matter (I don't think a wizard can normally beat a fort DC of 28), because that's the win. Obviously other opponents would be different.

Thanks also Sir Giacomo for your input. I enjoy. Ditto Ericgrau - can you post a link?

As for the name, I needed something to go with MAD, and Monty fit the bill :smalltongue:

Akal Saris
2010-02-17, 10:26 PM
Thank you and the several posters who followed - the OP has been fixed.

For those who don't think he has high saves, check the OP again. Only fort is below +18. High enough for level 20?

And what can a wizard shapechange into (in core, mind) that can hit an AC of 60+ (if we include Ring of Deflection, Armor Bracers, Natural Armor Amulet, and/or an Ioun Stone) to kill this guy? That's not a challenge, I'm sure it can be done, however shapechange isn't all it's cracked up to be. There's AMF (for shapechange) and banishing on items for summoned monsters. I think a Ring of Counterspelling with Greater Dispel Magic, or a Spell-storing weapon with Dispel Magic can deal with that sort of thing as well. After Monty uses stunning fist on a wizard, it doesn't really matter (I don't think a wizard can normally beat a fort DC of 28), because that's the win. Obviously other opponents would be different.

Thanks also Sir Giacomo for your input. I enjoy. Ditto Ericgrau - can you post a link?

As for the name, I needed something to go with MAD, and Monty fit the bill :smalltongue:

Heh, alrighty :P One of the recurring NPCs in a game I run is Clueless Morgan, another obscure muppet from the same movie :P

While it wasn't really a challenge, for a core wizard that can hit an AC of 60, how about a wiz 20 shapechanging into a titan, casting quickened true strike, and then tenser's transformation? You'd have +59 to a single attack on the following round, and then +39 to following ones. It wouldn't be a very smart wizard tactic though...

Glimbur
2010-02-17, 10:33 PM
(I don't think a wizard can normally beat a fort DC of 28)

That's pretty doable. +6 from Superior Resistance, +5ish from Con is kind of low, +1 from a Luck stone, +6 base assuming Wizard 20 (not a safe assumption, could be lower or higher depending on specific PrC's). That's a save 50% of the time, with not as many tricks as a wizard generally has running all day. Veil of Undeath, for example, ruins the Stunning Fist plan.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-17, 11:24 PM
nitiative: +15
Touch AC (normal): 35
Touch AC (fighting defensively): 47
Stunning Fist: +25, Fort DC 28
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Normal Attack: +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage: 1d6 (weapon) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 1d6 (precise strike) = 5d6

Saves:
Fort: 10 (class) + 2 (Con) = +12
Ref: 11 (class) + 9 (Dex) = +20 (note: and Evasion to boot)
Will: 10 (class) + 8 (Wis) = +18

Okay, in order:

Your saves... suck. You aren't going to be able to make a save vs most of the things coming at you at level 20. Hell, a Hellfire Glaivelock will completely own you. in one round. You can't even make a DC 40 save except on a nat 20. To hell with Glaivelock, just Hellfire Con you for some 30odd d6. Instant toast.

Your initiative of +15. Big deal, Foresight > initiative

Touch AC of 35. It's called True Strike. Also, it's pathetically easy to raise AB to the point where you cannot miss this anyways. You won't get a chance to be on the Defensive. And even if you could, you will still get completely owned by any number of Save or Loose effects. Hell, Glitterdust will completely negate this character.

You will never get a Stunning Fist to land, because between Mirror Image and Displacement, even if you hit the right one,you still hit the wrong one.

5d6 is completely pathetic, and completely negated in many different ways. Heck, you won't get it if he's wearing a lesser cloak of displacement, since that grants concealment.

In short: laughable. Try bringing something like this to Test of Spite and see just how completely wrong you are.

Hell, my CW Samurai build is more powerful than this and more likely to win against a Wizard.

sofawall
2010-02-17, 11:36 PM
Schneeky, two things. 1) This is a core-only build and B) My commoner can slaughter your Samurai, so shush.

EDIT: Although it is pretty weak. Seems to suffer from monk syndrome. Hard to kill (in theory), but isn't much of an offensive threat.

FishAreWet
2010-02-17, 11:41 PM
Shneeky is being harsh but I don't think he said anything incorrect.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-17, 11:45 PM
Schneeky, two things. 1) This is a core-only build and B) My commoner can slaughter your Samurai, so shush.

EDIT: Although it is pretty weak. Seems to suffer from monk syndrome. Hard to kill (in theory), but isn't much of an offensive threat.

So remove references to Glaivelock and Samurai. Statements still stand as written.

Heck, at that level, Time Stop + PAO (the rock underneath you to lava) + Cloudkill + Forcecage. You take 20d6 fire damage + con damage every round, no save, until you fall over dead.

sofawall
2010-02-17, 11:50 PM
So remove references to Glaivelock and Samurai. Statements still stand as written.

Heck, at that level, Time Stop + PAO (the rock underneath you to lava) + Cloudkill + Forcecage. You take 20d6 fire damage + con damage every round, no save, until you fall over dead.

Why is the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo so commonly cited? Anyone trapped in a Forcecage frankly deserves to die.

Being big and any Dimension Door-type effect render that combo laughable.

EDIT: And how is the lava getting into the cube, exactly? I thought the traditional method was a Gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire upside-down, above their heads.

Flickerdart
2010-02-17, 11:52 PM
Why is the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo so commonly cited? Anyone trapped in a Forcecage frankly deserves to die.

Being big and any Dimension Door-type effect render that combo laughable.

EDIT: And how is the lava getting into the cube, exactly? I thought the traditional method was a Gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire upside-down, above their heads.
It's commonly cited because it's such an easy trick to avoid, and yet a lot of "Wizard killer" builds don't.

sofawall
2010-02-17, 11:53 PM
And it saddens me.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-18, 12:08 AM
It's commonly cited because it's such an easy trick to avoid, and yet a lot of "Wizard killer" builds don't.

For example, this one fails to have any method of getting out of the forcecage and is not immune to poision.

So yea... it works.

Runestar
2010-02-18, 12:33 AM
Why is the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo so commonly cited? Anyone trapped in a Forcecage frankly deserves to die.

Being big and any Dimension Door-type effect render that combo laughable.

EDIT: And how is the lava getting into the cube, exactly? I thought the traditional method was a Gate to the Elemental Plane of Fire upside-down, above their heads.

Forcecage can hold anyone up to garguantuan (using the caged version). Teleportation effects can be temporarily suppressed using dimensional anchor. In fact, it is a popular trick for sorcs to use greater arcane fusion to cast both anchor and forcecage simultaneously. Oh, and he can even cast it quickened using arcane spellsurge.

Rod of annihilation isn't cheap (at least for a 1-shot item).

Indon
2010-02-18, 08:08 AM
Hmm. Forgot about that. There is a nonepic spell that creates in midair, called Cometfall (that's where I cribbed this idea from). It's 6th level. Hence, the factor for creating in midair should only be +4 or so (the epic spell rules do encourage you to stretch things, after all). You could alternatively (if you think that's pushing it) shape it to have a tiny pillar supporting the Moon which is then eliminated by the destroy seed.

I imagine if you're really gunning for shenanigans, you can just make a flying creature the size of the moon, and use your arbitrarily high Handle Animal check (boosted by epic magic exploitation of couse) to train it to jump on your enemies.


Heck, at that level, Time Stop + PAO (the rock underneath you to lava) + Cloudkill + Forcecage. You take 20d6 fire damage + con damage every round, no save, until you fall over dead.

The Cloudkill might do it for you, but Forcecage comes with a floor (unless it's Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage).

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 09:45 AM
Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character. And you can just fly out of the lava.

There's also the extra d6 of damage for what...every additional 200lbs of weight? So....quite a lot, then.

Plus 20d6 for immersion in lava. Not that it matters at this point, but yknow, just because.

Indon
2010-02-18, 09:58 AM
There is no lava, and the moon has wings.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 10:15 AM
There is no lava, and the moon has wings.

Meh, if you're summoning a moon sized object with an epic spell, why not have both lava and wings?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-18, 11:26 AM
Meh, if you're summoning a moon sized object with an epic spell, why not have both lava and wings?

PAO the rock underneath you into lava. No reflex save allowed, you are simply immersed in Lava. Drop a Resilient Sphere on top as a lid to keep target from crawling out.