PDA

View Full Version : LN Beguiler Build [3.5e]



LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 12:34 PM
In leu of my DM's ban-hammer wavery, I had to build something non-gish. :((. HOWEVER, in reading a guide on how to build Beguiler, I belive I have a decent build. I more or less need fine tuning vs. "Hey knucklehead! You don't know what in the Nine Hells you're doing!!"

Here's the combo @ 8th Level (Where the campaign begins):


Race: Human (Yes, plain old human)
Class: Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1
Feats: Stealthy (More for flavor, though probably swapping for Criminal Background from Faerun), Mindsight, Practiced Spellcaster, Insightful Reflexes (cuz Beguiler's Reflex save sux), Improved Toughness, Quicken Spell, Still Spell (For Free @ 5th)
Flaws: Murky Eyed, Feeble
Traits: Absent Minded, Quick

Stats (DM uses a High Buy system of x2 18s, x2 17s, x2 16s)

Str: 17
Dex: 17
Con: 18
Int: 20
Wis: 16
Cha: 16

HP: 71
AC: 15, 13, 12

Gear (No Magic Items added yet):

Leather Armor (Looks like an Eberron Arcanist)
Short Sword
Hand Crossbow (Note: This is a LAST RESORT)

Greenish
2010-02-17, 12:47 PM
Race: Human (Yes, plain old human)
Class: Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1
Feats: Stealthy (More for flavor, though probably swapping for Criminal Background from Faerun), Mindsight, Practiced Spellcaster, Insightful Reflexes (cuz Beguiler's Reflex save sux), Improved Toughness, Quicken Spell, Still Spell (For Free @ 5th)
Flaws: Murky Eyed, Feeble
Traits: Absent Minded, Quick

Stats (DM uses a High Buy system of x2 18s, x2 17s, x2 16s)

Str: 17
Dex: 17
Con: 18
Int: 20
Wis: 16
Cha: 16

HP: 71
AC: 15, 13, 12

Gear (No Magic Items added yet):

Leather Armor (Looks like an Eberron Arcanist)
Short Sword
Hand Crossbow (Note: This is a LAST RESORT)
Insightful Reflexes gives you initially just +2 to Ref save, which might not be worth it. If you can talk your DM into allowing Darkstalker, the LoM feat that allows you to hide from senses other than vision, it's a lot more useful than Stealthy. Also, unless you're using some alternative rules, you can't use Quicken Spell because you're a spontaneous caster.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 12:53 PM
Insightful Reflexes gives you initially just +2 to Ref save, which might not be worth it. If you can talk your DM into allowing Darkstalker, the LoM feat that allows you to hide from senses other than vision, it's a lot more useful than Stealthy. Also, unless you're using some alternative rules, you can't use Quicken Spell because you're a spontaneous caster.

DM says "Any Metamagic works on any caster, reguardless of type"

and as for Insightful Reflexes, it helps, because my DM's "Fireball-Happy"

and I pushed my luck with Mindsight. DM says "one feat minius Abberant Blood track from LoM"

So if y'all have any suggestions for a single feat drop, plz post ASAP

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 12:57 PM
Wouldn't it be better to enter mindbender at level 6 to delay advanced learning?

Forever Curious
2010-02-17, 12:57 PM
Are you bound to the LN alignment? If not, I suggest playing Good and using the Vow feats (Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence). This will give you +4 DC to ALL of your spells, plus a fun Aura of Nonviolence (calm emotions at will, to put it simply).

HOWEVER, I would suggest consulting your DM before looking at the Vow feats (they greatly affect party gameplay).

it also depends on what play strategy you're looking for. I myself go for pure manipulation, so I suggest Spell Focus (Enchantment). The Unsettling Enchantment reserve feat (Complete Mage) is also a fun one: -2 to attack as long as you have an enchantment spell of 3rd level available to cast, plus +1 caster level to all enchantment spells you cast (I could be wrong about the level).

I personally love beguilers by the way. I'm open for if you need any more advice.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-17, 01:01 PM
Race: Human (Yes, plain old human)
Class: Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1
Feats: Stealthy (More for flavor, though probably swapping for Criminal Background from Faerun), Mindsight, Practiced Spellcaster, Insightful Reflexes (cuz Beguiler's Reflex save sux), Improved Toughness, Quicken Spell, Still Spell (For Free @ 5th)
Flaws: Murky Eyed, Feeble
Traits: Absent Minded, Quick

Stats (DM uses a High Buy system of x2 18s, x2 17s, x2 16s)

Str: 17
Dex: 17
Con: 18
Int: 20
Wis: 16
Cha: 16

HP: 71
AC: 15, 13, 12

Gear (No Magic Items added yet):

Leather Armor (Looks like an Eberron Arcanist)
Short Sword
Hand Crossbow (Note: This is a LAST RESORT)


Those stats are off the charts! With those stats you could almost make Monk worthwhile. :smalltongue: What stat generation were you using?

I agree that Insightful Reflexes is kinda an iffy choice, considering your dex bonus isn't bad - but it's not like having extra saving throw is bad, so your call. I suppose it'll get better as you bump your Int.

I'm not all that familiar with Beguiler, but don't they have a lot of single-target spells? Look into Chain Spell, in Complete Arcane. It lets you hit the original target + your caster level additional targets with targeted spells. (Note that Ray spells actually don't work for this, contrary to popular belief, as they're effect-spells, not target-spells.)

As for gear, if you can pick any of it out, I'd suggest mainly Int-boosters (to help your DCs), CL-boosters, and if you can swing it, a Belt of Battle from the Magic Item Compendium. Gives you extra actions depending on how many charges you spend, and is thus hellishly useful.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 01:01 PM
Are you bound to the LN alignment? If not, I suggest playing Good and using the Vow feats (Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Nonviolence). This will give you +4 DC to ALL of your spells, plus a fun Aura of Nonviolence (calm emotions at will, to put it simply).

HOWEVER, I would suggest consulting your DM before looking at the Vow feats (they greatly affect party gameplay).

it also depends on what play strategy you're looking for. I myself go for pure manipulation, so I suggest Spell Focus (Enchantment). The Unsettling Enchantment reserve feat (Complete Mage) is also a fun one: -2 to attack as long as you have an enchantment spell of 3rd level available to cast, plus +1 caster level to all enchantment spells you cast (I could be wrong about the level).

I personally love beguilers by the way. I'm open for if you need any more advice.

However, should I go Good, I lose Mindbender (see prereqs)

However, spell focus (Enchantment) sounds fun, but couldn't I do the Illusion track as well, or hell, why not do both?

and I agree, Beguiler is a suave genius.

I also need another PrC for 9th on into 20th. I don't want the capstone of Mindbender (1 level dip is sufficient)

Forever Curious
2010-02-17, 01:08 PM
However, should I go Good, I lose Mindbender (see prereqs)

However, spell focus (Enchantment) sounds fun, but couldn't I do the Illusion track as well, or hell, why not do both?

and I agree, Beguiler is a suave genius.

I also need another PrC for 9th on into 20th. I don't want the capstone of Mindbender (1 level dip is sufficient)

Oh trust me: Vow feats are a worthy trade for a one-level Mindbender dip (provided your DM allows them).

Or alternatively, you could play Evil and go into the Assassin PrC (which is INT based and stealthy, a worthy Beguiler class).

Or even better yet, be a Gnome and go into Shadow Craft Mage. This PrC grants a typeless miss chance (15% at first, increasing by 5% every level). In addition, at higher levels you can use any Image spell to emulate Shadow Conjuration/Evocation of equal or lesser level. They have other fun illusion abilities, but i'm away from my books at the moment.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-17, 01:12 PM
The Unsettling Enchantment reserve feat (Complete Mage) [snip]

I forgot about the reserve feats, surprisingly! Definitely look in to them, they're great.

Unsettling Enchantment isn't the reserve feat. It's an Ench-focused feat, though, and does about the same thing - anyone who has to make a save against an Ench spell you cast takes -2 to attack, regardless of their save.

The reserve feat is Touch of Distraction, which lets you spend a standard action to give -2 to the next attack roll or Reflex throw, as well as granting +1 to Enchantment CL.

CMage has some great stuff, look it up if you can.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-17, 01:13 PM
Are you familiar with the Beguiler handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)?

Also from the handbook, Shadowcraft mage is a really solid option, though you need to use the adaptation section for a human to enter the prestige class.

Forever Curious
2010-02-17, 01:16 PM
I forgot about the reserve feats, surprisingly! Definitely look in to them, they're great.

Unsettling Enchantment isn't the reserve feat. It's an Ench-focused feat, though, and does about the same thing - anyone who has to make a save against an Ench spell you cast takes -2 to attack, regardless of their save.

The reserve feat is Touch of Distraction, which lets you spend a standard action to give -2 to the next attack roll or Reflex throw, as well as granting +1 to Enchantment CL.

CMage has some great stuff, look it up if you can.

Ah yes...my mistake. :smallredface:

Magnor Criol
2010-02-17, 01:18 PM
Ah yes...my mistake. :smallredface:

Not a very big one, since they both do almost the same thing. :smalltongue: I didn't know it either til I went to look up what the other feat was.

Toliudar
2010-02-17, 01:27 PM
With that Con, and the fact that beguilers aren't really designed for melee (not that they can't do it, but it synergizes with almost none of their abilities), Improved Toughness may not be as helpful as you think. As noted, insightful reflexes may not be all you wish it were. Spell focus (Enchantment or Illusion) is a solid choice. I'm a big fan of the Arcane Disciple feat (especially with the Travel, Spell or Protection domains), to give a little extra versatility to your spellcasting.

For PrC's...well, if you have the patience, Rainbow Servant pays off with the best capstone ability of all time - spontaneous casting of any cleric spell ever. Not a lot to recommend it before then, though. And straight beguiler is far from terrible.

quiet1mi
2010-02-17, 01:34 PM
If your Dm is going to be like that... just focus on supporting the party...

Haste the sword swingers, and do not forget about Dispel Magic... It can counter those pesky fireballs...

What I have done in the past is make myself invisible, then spider climb to the ceiling and be over 25' away from the party... Fire ball has a 20' radius, so unless casters like shooting a single fireball at the ceiling for no reason, I think you will be fine...

Slow can effect undead, and Greater invisibility will lead you to praise.

I would get rid of the crossbow and take an adamantine dagger (ignores hardness) but if you are stuck on damaging people, Legion of sentinels I can not laud more... your opponent will take 19 attacks dealing 1d8+2 if they provoke an AOO... each swordsman cannot do more than one attack of opportunity but if they pass by another swordsman that has not made an AOO, he could swing at the poor bugger...

Their attack bonus would be your caster level and can flank but keep in mind that they are ethereal and therefor ignore armor and shield bonuses that are not force... Unfortunately DR 10 pretty much stops it dead in its tracks...

My choice target for the Legion of Sentinels is of course enemy casters... because

Your goal as a beguiler is to beguile... If you use a level 1 spell slot on silent image and the opponent nukes the image with fireball... you come out ahead... If you haste the party and slow the enemy, you give your team an edge SO HUGE, that it is hard to lose those encounters...

quiet1mi
2010-02-17, 01:37 PM
If your Dm is going to be like that... just focus on supporting the party...

Haste the sword swingers, and do not forget about Dispel Magic... It can counter those pesky fireballs...

What I have done in the past is make myself invisible, then spider climb to the ceiling and be over 25' away from the party... Fire ball has a 20' radius, so unless casters like shooting a single fireball at the ceiling for no reason, I think you will be fine...

Slow can effect undead, and Greater invisibility will lead you to praise.

I would get rid of the crossbow and take an adamantine dagger (ignores hardness) but if you are stuck on damaging people, Legion of sentinels I can not laud more... your opponent will take 19 attacks dealing 1d8+2 if they provoke an AOO... each swordsman cannot do more than one attack of opportunity but if they pass by another swordsman that has not made an AOO, he could swing at the poor bugger...

Their attack bonus would be your caster level and can flank but keep in mind that they are ethereal and therefor ignore armor and shield bonuses that are not force... Unfortunately DR 10 pretty much stops it dead in its tracks...

My choice target for the Legion of Sentinels is of course enemy casters... because it forces them to cast defensively... if the sword swinger takes mage slayer... then not at all...

Your goal as a beguiler is to beguile... If you use a level 1 spell slot on silent image and the opponent nukes the image with fireball... you come out ahead... If you haste the party and slow the enemy, you give your team an edge SO HUGE, that it is hard to lose those encounters...

gorfnab
2010-02-17, 02:02 PM
Versatile Spellcaster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Spellcaster) is one of my favorite feat choices for Beguiler.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 02:49 PM
I took Hand Xbow to keep melee'ers at bay. Not that I won't add a dagger for the sake of his backstory... (he's a poor kid from Waterdeep)

Versatile Caster is a great option, as is Arcane Discipline, specifically I'd add Magic to give me Wiz / Soc spells or possibly Travel. The party has no arcanist, so I have to "step up" to fill the void. We do have an Archery Ranger, a Paladin, a Cleric, a Barbarian, and a Rogue.

Forever Curious
2010-02-17, 02:55 PM
I took Hand Xbow to keep melee'ers at bay. Not that I won't add a dagger for the sake of his backstory... (he's a poor kid from Waterdeep)

Versatile Caster is a great option, as is Arcane Discipline, specifically I'd add Magic to give me Wiz / Soc spells or possibly Travel. The party has no arcanist, so I have to "step up" to fill the void. We do have an Archery Ranger, a Paladin, a Cleric, a Barbarian, and a Rogue.

In that case definitely try to go for Shadowcraft Mage (ask your DM to ignore the race requirement, whatever) and take the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation as your Advanced Learning spells. Picking up a wand of one of them is pricey, but worth it if you're going for the party's main arcanist.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 03:00 PM
In that case definitely try to go for Shadowcraft Mage (ask your DM to ignore the race requirement, whatever) and take the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation as your Advanced Learning spells. Picking up a wand of one of them is pricey, but worth it if you're going for the party's main arcanist.

Isn't there a PrC that makes my illusions real? I remember hearing it from AGG32...

and I am ditching Insightful Reflexes, Improved Toughness, Stealthy, and Quicken (can-'o-wyrms) in favor of Arcane Discipline (Magic), Versatile Spellcaster, Spell Focus: Enchantment and Illusion as my replacement feats.

Greenish
2010-02-17, 03:03 PM
Isn't there a PrC that makes my illusions real? I remember hearing it from AGG32...Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter (unrelated PrC) both make illusions more real, I seem to recall. The old trick is to combine them to make your illusions over 100% real, or more real than reality.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 03:04 PM
Shadowcraft Mage and Shadowcrafter (unrelated PrC) both make illusions more real, I seem to recall. The old trick is to combine them to make your illusions over 100% real, or more real than reality.

I may dabble into shadowcrafter later

Greenish
2010-02-17, 03:08 PM
I may dabble into shadowcrafter laterThere is, of course, a handbook for Shadowcraft Mages: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=0bf311ef0c532c89af7ff87aa141a7 f2&topic=5638.0

Not for lactose intolerants.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-17, 03:08 PM
coolio......

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-17, 03:29 PM
I'd stick with the standard Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14, you'll probably be better off than using Shadowcraft Mage which is much better suited to a Wizard or even Cleric build. Definitely get Versatile Spellcaster, which should grant you early access to the next level of spells thus allowing you to get higher level spells via Advanced Learning. For those I'd get Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Superior Invisibility, and Greater Shadow Evocation in that order. Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting and the Raiment of the Four set from MIC. Mithral Breastplate and a Mithral Buckler are also highly recommended. A Shortbow would be the ranged weapon of choice, get a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows, get an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Shivering Touch or Sound Lance to fill them with. For your other feats consider the verious bloodline feats such as Penumbra Bloodline (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 112), you'd need to take Obtain Familiar (CA) to qualify but you can also get Improved Familiar (DMG) for an Imp or maybe something from the CW list.

Gnorman
2010-02-17, 06:32 PM
For your other feats consider the verious bloodline feats such as Penumbra Bloodline (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 112), you'd need to take Obtain Familiar (CA) to qualify but you can also get Improved Familiar (DMG) for an Imp or maybe something from the CW list.

And if you use the Dragon Compendium version of the feat, you don't even need to have a familiar.

But with all those skill ranks, you might still want to.

Greenish
2010-02-17, 06:35 PM
For your other feats consider the verious bloodline feats such as Penumbra Bloodline (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf) (page 112), you'd need to take Obtain Familiar (CA) to qualify but you can also get Improved Familiar (DMG) for an Imp or maybe something from the CW list.Illithid bloodline + Kin Mastery.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-18, 12:51 PM
So I'm going Beguiler 7/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 12

feats for l8r: Obtain Familiar, Improved Familiar, Dragon Familiar (Shadow Dragon), The two Enchantment boost feats from above, and Dazzling Illusion.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-18, 02:37 PM
any other suggestions y'all?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-18, 03:21 PM
Take Mindbender at your 6th character level, not at your 8th level. That way when you gain Advanced Learning at Beguiler 7 you'll be able to choose a spell one level higher. Plus that way you won't have to wait until 9th level to get Mindsight, as you cannot take that feat before you gain Mindbender.