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Evard
2010-02-17, 07:13 PM
As I was playing pokemon red for the billionth time I thought "hey 4e uses this same...." Which got me thinking.

Basic attacks are basically dead now in 4e although you can/could make them pretty good usually the goodies that come along with at-will powers make people use them over basic attacks.
Also with so many powers things tend to be bogged down during game play, especially with all the different triggers players must remember.
So my idea is to give 4e the pokemon kind of power progression and usages per day (or per healing).

Basic Attack: no limit
At-Wills: 15
Encounters: 10
Daily: 5
Utility: Depends on the type (at will, encounter, daily)

Each of these powers can be replenished 1/day at a center/hotel/church

Of course they will no longer be called at wills encounters and daily powers

Each level that you gain a new power you may choose to replace an existing power. Humans get an extra at will to choose from but otherwise each player will have 1 at will.
Wizards gains extra spells as normal of course

This would work well for heroic levels but I'm not sure about epic or even paragon levels.

So would this work? Would the 4 powers be enough for people to want to play this way?

gallagher
2010-02-17, 07:26 PM
As I was playing pokemon red for the billionth time I thought "hey 4e uses this same...." Which got me thinking.

Basic attacks are basically dead now in 4e although you can/could make them pretty good usually the goodies that come along with at-will powers make people use them over basic attacks.
Also with so many powers things tend to be bogged down during game play, especially with all the different triggers players must remember.
So my idea is to give 4e the pokemon kind of power progression and usages per day (or per healing).

Basic Attack: no limit
At-Wills: 15
Encounters: 10
Daily: 5
Utility: Depends on the type (at will, encounter, daily)

Each of these powers can be replenished 1/day at a center/hotel/church

Of course they will no longer be called at wills encounters and daily powers

Each level that you gain a new power you may choose to replace an existing power. Humans get an extra at will to choose from but otherwise each player will have 1 at will.
Wizards gains extra spells as normal of course

This would work well for heroic levels but I'm not sure about epic or even paragon levels.

So would this work? Would the 4 powers be enough for people to want to play this way?

i dunno, i dont play 4e, but i wanted to comment on the possibility of playing DnD as a pokemon. just saying, i would totally RP a charizard

Haven
2010-02-17, 07:31 PM
Interesting idea. I don't know enough about balance to critique helpfully, but it has potential.

Asbestos
2010-02-17, 07:43 PM
i dunno, i dont play 4e, but i wanted to comment on the possibility of playing DnD as a pokemon. just saying, i would totally RP a charizard

That's what I thought this was about too...


I've never had a problem keeping track of 'all the triggers' in 4e. Normally because players only need to keep track of those relevant to their specific PC. If someone uses an AP it should be the job of the Warlord player to inform people what that means. If a fighter-marked enemy shifts or attacks a not-fighter then its only the job of the Fighter's player to know what's going on. Also, while you could take a 'trigger' power at a variety of levels... most powers are just regular attack powers or fire-and-forget utility powers that don't rely on trigger conditions.

Evard
2010-02-17, 07:58 PM
SOrcerer: Charizard
Wizard: Mr Mime
Ranger: Scyther
Monk: Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan

XD

Does anyone know anyone who could make this system?

Games that I've DM'ed the players would forget things they could do and when they could do them in every campaign and then they would ask oh can we go back and do this now?

gallagher
2010-02-17, 08:06 PM
SOrcerer: Charizard
Wizard: Mr Mime
Fighter: Scyther
Monk: Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan

XD

Does anyone know anyone who could make this system?

well it looks like we can just abandon the old topic and start this one, i say that we balance it so that stronger pokemon require more XP to level... so a charizard takes, say, 100x XP to level up than say, a magmar of equal level... or maybe a magmar is a sorc/fighter build??

The Dark Fiddler
2010-02-17, 08:08 PM
Does anyone know anyone who could make this system?

There's been tons of attempts for tons of systems. I can remember at least four different attempts for D&D 3.5.

Just saying.

Evard
2010-02-17, 08:09 PM
Well I'm talking 4e not 3.5

Tengu_temp
2010-02-17, 08:19 PM
I don't like this idea. At-wills are meant to be spammed, and restricting them severely hurts characters who are not strength-based, especially those who use implements, not weapons.

Vulkarius
2010-02-17, 08:26 PM
Couldn't you be...a trainer that "summoned" Pokemon? But you have to capture them first by battling them but not killing them. Then roll against a DC to "Capture" them? oooh.

Evard
2010-02-17, 08:30 PM
So? Powers are special things to do, basic attacks are something anyone can do.

There is a feat that allows you to change what stat you use to do basic attacks with, the only stat I don't like would be Con but *shrug*

Guy
2010-02-17, 08:39 PM
So? Powers are special things to do, basic attacks are something anyone can do.

yes, and at-will powers are powers your character is capable of doing almost endlessly, not 15 times per day. it doesn't work with the mechanics, and it won't pan out beyond heroic tier. How do item powers, or paragon powers / epic destiny powers work with this?

Your proposed system would serve only to reduce each character's options tremendously.

Also, basic attacks really aren't dead at all... they're used to make OAs and quite a few classes can grant instant basic attacks to nearby allies as a result of their powers (bard, warlord)

Evard
2010-02-17, 08:53 PM
Then make at-will powers not unlimited simple fix that doesn't hurt anything in the system.

Items could stay the same since the player already is limited to how many times a character can activate a daily item power. These wouldn't change but they would be replenished the same way as the powers.

Tengu_temp
2010-02-17, 09:04 PM
So? Powers are special things to do, basic attacks are something anyone can do.

There is a feat that allows you to change what stat you use to do basic attacks with, the only stat I don't like would be Con but *shrug*

At-will powers are not special things. They are basic techniques of your class, something you can do all day.

And adding just another feat that you need to buy in order not to suck is a terrible idea - 4e has too many of those already, and some classes won't have to buy this feat to remain effective, while others will have to. It does very little to help implement users, as well - their weapon attacks will be bad one way or another, and most of them would prefer to stay away from front lines.

Moreover, the numbers of uses per day you give to at-will, encounter and daily powers are very off in comparison to their proportional power and how often are they used in standard 4e. In a standard game, depending on the number of encounters, an average adventurer will use non-utility encounter powers 3-5 times more often than non-utility daily powers.

Finally, limiting characters to only one of each kind of attack brings nothing good to the game - it only makes it more boring, because you get less variety. And it hurts all characters that aren't straight single-target damage dealers.

Evard
2010-02-17, 09:12 PM
the feat wouldn't be added as a feat like say two weapon fighting but more of a class feature, not everything has to be fixxed by making a player take new feats.

At-wills are special abilities that the classes give the character. But basic attacks are the basic well attacks. At wills are special abilities that you gain by your class since you don't need a class to do a basic attack.

Items need tweaked but really 3.5 and 4e magic items need to be tweaked -__-

So are you saying that a fighter in 3.5 is boring? cause i know many people who spiced up a battle in 3.5 that was playing a two weapon fighter or great sword fighter.

Guy
2010-02-17, 09:12 PM
Yes, making at-wills finite doesn't hurt your system, the problem is your system would hurt the mechanics as-is. I just don't see what the goal is - it seems entirely regressive. Wizards stop being able to cast spells after a bit, and have to resort to a crossbow or a feat-driven INT melee? In 4e?

Not to mention having only a total of four powers to use - why? Is variety a bad thing? If you can use an Encounter power ten times instead of each of your (three, i might add) encounter powers once per encounter, the balance is thrown off entirely and your character becomes more one-dimensional.

Powers as written don't work with this system, if you wanted to have everyone use four powers with a limit to each one, you'd need new powers written specifically for it.

Evard
2010-02-17, 09:16 PM
Did pokemon red get boring because your charmander only had 4 moves?

Tengu_temp
2010-02-17, 09:18 PM
I fail to see how Cleave or attacking with two weapons at once is something special that you should only be capable of doing a limited amount of times per day. It's not something any average Joe can do, but you're not an average Joe - you're an adventurer, a trained combatant with focus on some abilities.


Did pokemon red get boring because your charmander only had 4 moves?

I wasn't aware DND is a video game, or that you control more than one character in it and can swap between them in combat. Because yes, if in Pokemon you were limited to only one creature with 4 attacks, it'd get boring quickly.

Guy
2010-02-17, 09:20 PM
Did pokemon red get boring because your charmander only had 4 moves?

(You control six different pokemon and could swap out any number of them, as opposed to controlling a single character)

I don't think you get what I'm saying. Say I have Charman Derr, level 3 wizard.

I can use my strongest ability five times per day, but as many times in a row as I want, with this system. Things balanced for once per encounter could be done every turn, until you ran out of daily uses.

These were the kinds of problems that cropped up in 3.5, and why 4e's system works the exact way it does right now.

Evard
2010-02-17, 09:22 PM
Because say cleave is a special ability that allows you to hurt something next to what you hit, hint a special ability not exactly magical or supernatural but it is still a special ability that a ranger wizard or commoner can do.

You could always rule that if the class gives them an at will that allows you to use it as a basic attack then they can use it as their basic attack.

Tengu_temp
2010-02-17, 09:28 PM
And how exactly is that better than what we already have in 4e? You only have less options in combat, thus making it less interesting, and you have tremendous advantage at lower levels due to being able to kill bosses quickly with daily power spam.

And the "at-will powers are special abilities" idea is not what the design of 4e intended. They're basic techniques. Why should you be able to use them less just because not everyone else can perform them? Note that many monsters have at-will powers other than basic attacks too.

cupkeyk
2010-02-18, 12:55 AM
a limit of 15 to at-wills between short rests is useless, combat don't take more than 10 rounds. if you put a 15 per extended rest, that's actually fine at level 10. with one daily per encounter, three encounter powers and approximately 5 at will powers, you will only use basic attacks during wrap up(last two or three rounds). earlier would mean one to two rounds earlier of basic attacks but still, the impact is negligible that not adding the complication to the system would be easier.

but then the pokemon pp system's "basic attack" hurts the pokemon using it. is it called flail or something? I use it when leveling my magicarp/jumpluff by making sure they have no splash pp's left so they can get 100% of the xp.

edit: pokemon red and any of its future permutations got boring because it was too easy. i still play it once for the plot, but i can always defeat and/or catch everything with my lonely level 100 crobat. except for the smart/beauty contests grrrrr. and making cakes/whatever those are.

Mando Knight
2010-02-18, 01:16 AM
a limit of 15 to at-wills between short rests is useless, combat don't take more than 10 rounds. if you put a 15 per extended rest, that's actually fine at level 10. with one daily per encounter, three encounter powers and approximately 5 at will powers, you will only use basic attacks during wrap up(last two or three rounds). earlier would mean one to two rounds earlier of basic attacks but still, the impact is negligible that not adding the complication to the system would be easier.
It's pp/day, not pp/rest.

That said, 15/day is way too low for an at-will, especially given its strength compared to the other attacks. Make it 35 like Metal Claw and Tackle.

but then the pokemon pp system's "basic attack" hurts the pokemon using it. is it called flail or something? I use it when leveling my magicarp/jumpluff by making sure they have no splash pp's left so they can get 100% of the xp.
It's Struggle. Used to deal almost negligible recoil damage, but Ninty boosted the suicide rate on the move for the DS games to stop super-stall strategies.

cupkeyk
2010-02-18, 01:21 AM
but since you can only benefit from one extended rest every 24 hours I assumed it was the same thing. With 15 pp's for at will powers per day/extended rest averaging 4 to 5 uses per encounter given a 3 to 4 encounter day. the added complication is negligible to be useful. I mean, any decent pokemon master would always walk back to the pokemon center anyway when the 5 pp powers run low or have ether on hand during extended peroids without a center close like victory road(do I remember these names properly?) PP's rarely affect pokemon gameplay, and they prolly win't affect DnD. Why have it at all?

Ah, yes magikarp caught with levels higher than 20 have flail.

Kumori
2010-02-18, 01:28 AM
If someone were to successfully and completely homebrew a Pokemon variant for 4e, I would officially stop not liking it. I would definitely take the time to learn the system from it's top to it's bottom so as to be able to play tabletop or PbP pokemon.

Actually, if there were a group working on homebrewing it I would want to be on the team. I'm gonna go see if there is...

Superglucose
2010-02-18, 01:33 AM
It's Struggle. Used to deal almost negligible recoil damage, but Ninty boosted the suicide rate on the move for the DS games to stop super-stall strategies.
<tangent>Anyone remember the epic fail Wobbuffet mirrors from the R/S version? I had that happen to me once. Stupid draws!


EDIT:
Also, I don't think this was intended as a "let's make 4e better!" homebrew idea, but rather a "Let's make 4e hilariously like this other game I kind of like and seems sort of similar to me, and maybe later on we'll play d20 pokemon!"