A gaming boycott that's justified? See for yourself. &&$(ing Ubisoft.

[chiasaur11]

Well. Ah.

There are no words.

Except maybe a Hestonian DAMN IT ALL TO HELL!

Witness. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/17/you-maniacs/)

Not buying any Ubisoft games in the near future, sayin' that right now.

[AgentPaper]

That's...retarded.

[Vitruviansquid]

When I read that, I'm picturing somewhere out there, someone is wearing a smug grin and thinking to himself:

"Yeah, those filthy hackers are finally getting what they deserve."

Then I shuddered.

[AlterForm]

Some company had to try it eventually.

I'll be in the Internet Bomb ShelterTM if anyone needs me. :smallcool:

[BRC]

Nothing is true*
All is permitted**


*Besides us being overly paranoid and using DRM technologies that will hurt legitimate customers more than it will Pirates, but hey, the innocent have nothing to fear!
**Except playing the game when you don't have a perfect, constant internet connection and our servers are working perfectly, but hey, technology never has any problems, and who isn't constantly hooked up to a perfect internet connection nowadays.

[Tavar]

Wow. And how many pirates do you think this deterred?

[Douglas]

Er, why do they expect this approach to do any better at stopping piracy than previous approaches? The pirates will just edit the executable to cut out the check, just like they would with CD checks and such, and end up with an objectively superior product while legitimate customers get screwed. The only way online checking like this actually works is if the Internet connection to the company servers is an inherently critical part of gameplay, like with an MMO.

[EleventhHour]

I wish they'd come up with something better, that doesn't require a 'net connection to allow playing. Especially an Improved CD Key. :smallannoyed:

[KBF]

I'm not against DRM. Like, at all. They have a right to make shareholders feel safer. Sure, something like Steam does DRM better than DRM, but the shareholders need the security. And it's not that big a deal, I guess.

I'm also against most boycotts. They're usually people raging and throwing fits.

I will be participating in this boycott. Ubisoft, really? This is a BIG DEAL. This is DRM actively out to hinder playing the game.

[Jallorn]

Wow. And how many pirates do you think this deterred?

I'll wager someone will find a way around it. There's always a way.

[Eldariel]

So wait, they're basically actively encouraging piratism by making products where an illegal version is going to be superior? That seems like poor business sense if I've ever seen some. Last of my money they're seeing until this idiocy stops.

For that matter, all this crap about removing Dedicated Servers from various PC games better stop too. And the whole "half-assed conversions"-crap; PC doesn't have the same limitations as consoles so how about putting even an ounce of work into the PC versions?

[chiasaur11]

I'm not against DRM. Like, at all. They have a right to make shareholders feel safer. Sure, something like Steam does DRM better than DRM, but the shareholders need the security. And it's not that big a deal, I guess.


Although I agree generally, I do feel the need to mention that Steam is DRM. Just, you know, less irritating, more helpful, versatile...

[Erloas]

Well I did like the first Assassin's Creed, and I have been thinking about picking up the second one. Though I was never planning on doing it right away, and wait for the price to come down. But maybe I just won't get it at all now. My wireless likes to cut out on me periodically anyway (think its the router) and the ISP has bad days too (lots of them really, too bad I don't have any other good options here). The best days to play games are when the net is down.


Maybe if they release it on Steam with the Steam only copy protection then I'll think about getting it, otherwise I'll probably avoid it. Its not like there aren't lots of other games I want to play but don't really have time for.

[Cobalt]

*blink*

*facepalm*

Is this for real? That's the most unbelievably ineffective anti-pirating method I've ever seen in my life. Sure, some hackers might be deterred (the lazy ones), but seriously Ubisoft? So will everyone else!

This boycott I'm in full support of.

[Shpadoinkle]

Wow. And how many pirates do you think this deterred?

If anything it had the opposite effect. Why bother paying for a game that you have no guarentee you'll even be able to play?

I wonder when software companies and the RIAA will pull thier heads out of thier asses? Hopefully not before they bankrupt themselves due to thier own stupidity and get replaced by new companies that don't treat customers like criminals.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Meh. I didn't like the PC port of AC1 when a friend tried it. This is a non-event. I had already boycotted Ubisoft.

[chiasaur11]

If anything it had the opposite effect. Why bother paying for a game that you have no guarentee you'll even be able to play?


And there's the challenge. Broke the Unbreakable, after all, is a fun thing to be able to brag about.

[BRC]

Rocksteady got anti-piracy correct


Batman Arkham Asylum - This isn't from the game itself, but from the developers. A person pirated the game and started playing. Strangely, when they tried to make Batman glide, he simply fell down, surrounded by poison gas. They went on the Eidos forum to report the bug and got this in response: "The problem you have encountered is a hook in the copy protection, to catch out people who try and download cracked versions of the game for free. It's not a bug in the game's code, it's a bug in your moral code."

[Vitruviansquid]

As a layman of the issue, I'm still not quite sure why this DRM arms race is going on at all.

Color me naive, but wasn't there a time when games would only have a CD key at most, and companies still made money? >_>

Even without any kind of protection at all, wouldn't most consumers still buy their copies?

[KBF]

Well I did like the first Assassin's Creed, and I have been thinking about picking up the second one. Though I was never planning on doing it right away, and wait for the price to come down. But maybe I just won't get it at all now. My wireless likes to cut out on me periodically anyway (think its the router) and the ISP has bad days too (lots of them really, too bad I don't have any other good options here). The best days to play games are when the net is down.


Maybe if they release it on Steam with the Steam only copy protection then I'll think about getting it, otherwise I'll probably avoid it. Its not like there aren't lots of other games I want to play but don't really have time for.

This is basically my situation too, but I know for a fact they won't release Steam only copy protection. Steam has plenty of room for DRM.

[chiasaur11]

This is basically my situation too, but I know for a fact they won't release Steam only copy protection. Steam has plenty of room for DRM.

EA's abandoning of non-steam stuff for the steam releases was a sign they're trying to kick evil.

Mind, they still do scummy things, but they're trying, bless 'em.

[Trixie]

So wait, they're basically actively encouraging piratism by making products where an illegal version is going to be superior? That seems like poor business sense if I've ever seen some. Last of my money they're seeing until this idiocy stops.

Um, wake up - DRM is doing this to paying customers for about 25 years now, starting with code books as early as '80s.

The below isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

And frankly - well, honestly, maybe this will wake up tools that: A) buy RIAA/MPAA propaganda, B) who not read on 'fair use' clauses and laws, bark at people defending them and who not care when pop biz is trying to cut them; C) who "don't see any problems with that nice little DRM only 1% more intrusive than the one that came before it". You didn't drew the line then, why protest now? You behave like frogs who laughed at more sensible people pointing out the water is getting hot and only noticed this when it started to boil.

And seriously, Steam and iTunes store are not solutions, they're even worse diseases than most DRMs.

[Rutskarn]

Go to hell, Ubisoft.

Yeah, I'm boycotting them. Won't be that hard for me, but you better believe I'm boycotting them.

[Bucky]

This draconian DRM policy makes piracy seems more like an insecurity problem than a security issue.

[KBF]

C) who "don't see any problems with that nice little DRM only 1% more intrusive than the one that came before it". You didn't drew the line then, why protest now? You behave like frogs who laughed at more sensible people pointing out the water is getting hot and only noticed this when it started to boil.

Because 0% Tolerance policies are dumb? The water getting warm in a hot tub is no big deal. Everyone expected DRM. It wasn't that bad, really. Right up until about the Spore phenomena, where it got shaky. You can say that's where the water starting boiling, I guess. But this is too far. This is where people are getting burned, and not just those with fragile skin. This metaphor is dumb.

In all honesty, it's not that awful if you aren't opposed to the entire concept. I'm not. But I think this is too far. Which is a shame, because I loved Assassin's Creed 1 and wanted to play the sequel.


And seriously, Steam and iTunes store are not solutions, they're even worse diseases than most DRMs.

This requires qualifiers. Why? I enjoy using Steam and it has never stopped me from playing games, even offline it's very possible to play your games. It's not simple enough, mind you, but it works.

[Trixie]

Rocksteady got anti-piracy correct


Batman Arkham Asylum - This isn't from the game itself, but from the developers. A person pirated the game and started playing. Strangely, when they tried to make Batman glide, he simply fell down, surrounded by poison gas. They went on the Eidos forum to report the bug and got this in response: "The problem you have encountered is a hook in the copy protection, to catch out people who try and download cracked versions of the game for free. It's not a bug in the game's code, it's a bug in your moral code."

Frankly, it's people who say things like above who are to blame for this DRM mess - the pirate in question probably had new crack 5 minutes later. Paying customer who had this because his cheap Chinese DVD player scathed game CD? Got shafted.

You encourage them, they'll only tighten the screws in response.


As a layman of the issue, I'm still not quite sure why this DRM arms race is going on at all.

Color me naive, but wasn't there a time when games would only have a CD key at most, and companies still made money? >_>

Even without any kind of protection at all, wouldn't most consumers still buy their copies?

Exactly. No-DRM games were sold in the past, end they sold well. There's now way for the DRM to win - it's always a losing proposition, both in customer loss, and money loss. Only DRM making firms profit from them.

Without saying too much, DRM only exists for various political and legal reasons, as US law is perfectly fine with someone who defrauds billions of $ through incompetence, but might actually put someone in jail for not installing DRM in the game, despite it increasing profits :smallsigh:

[Boci]

Rocksteady got anti-piracy correct

How do you make such a bug unique to pirate copies? Tie in a clause supressing it that cannot be removed without also removing the requirement of a CD?

(I'm technologically illiterate by the way).

[Douglas]

How do you make such a bug unique to pirate copies? Tie in a clause supressing it that cannot be removed without also removing the requirement of a CD?

(I'm technologically illiterate by the way).
The same way you make the game not running at all be specific to pirated copies: generally, you utterly fail at it because a few skilled crackers modify your released executable to fool the check, whatever it happens to be, and release the modified program to where any novice pirate can find and download it. I would be very surprised if a pirated version with that "bug" removed were not available very soon after that happened.

[Lord of Rapture]

....What?

Oh god. This is a joke, right? What kind of company could actually be this stupid?

Jeezus. Boycott all the way.

[Prime32]

Rocksteady got anti-piracy correct
Batman Arkham Asylum - This isn't from the game itself, but from the developers. A person pirated the game and started playing. Strangely, when they tried to make Batman glide, he simply fell down, surrounded by poison gas. They went on the Eidos forum to report the bug and got this in response: "The problem you have encountered is a hook in the copy protection, to catch out people who try and download cracked versions of the game for free. It's not a bug in the game's code, it's a bug in your moral code."
I read something on how they put this kind of copy protection (running fine, but glitching at certain points and removing items required to progress) into the first Spyro the Dragon game. The aim wasn't to prevent people cracking it, it was to slow them down so that people would still buy the game on launch day. Some of the crackers apparently thanked them for making their protection so amusing. Your helper firefly would actually inform you on loading the game that your copy appeared to be pirated, and that you should be aware that you may find certain obstacles.

[Flickerdart]

Although I agree generally, I do feel the need to mention that Steam is DRM. Just, you know, less irritating, more helpful, versatile...
And also retarded with their seemingly random "this game is not available at this time" errors that aren't even fixed by going offline.

[warty goblin]

I'm more tolerant of annoying DRM stuff than a lot of people, but this, this does it even for me. So yeah, I'm not gonna buy any Ubisoft games featuring this. I just hope they get rid of it before Far Cry 3 comes out...

[The Dark Fiddler]

Makes me glad I'm not a primarily computer gamer, so I don't need to deal with DRM so much.

...of course, it still bugs me with my copy of Spore being mostly unplayable since the only computer I can activate it on sucks and the only computer that can play it has no internet access.

[Douglas]

My stance on copy protection/DRM:
1) No matter how draconian or clever you think your solution is, unless you can make the binary game executable so complex and obfuscated that no pirate cracker is going to even be able to figure out how you did it*, a cracked version without your DRM is going to be broadly available to pirates in short order.
2) Making your game program sufficiently hard to decipher will absolutely require a large investment of time and money just for that task, probably more than is actually worth it. Even if you do spend those resources, there's a very high chance that what you thought was good enough will turn out to be cracked quite quickly, rendering your investment truly meaningless.
3) When a gaming company inevitably refuses to admit that not using DRM at all might be a valid approach, they should admit that they're not going to stop the true pirates no matter how hard they try so they should stick to something simple and non-intrusive designed only to stop casual copying.

* Exception: If communicating with company-owned servers is such an integral part of the game that it is logically impossible to remove without making the game stop working, as with games like WoW and other MMOs, it is possible to use that to make uncrackable protection. Doing so requires giving each copy of the game a unique identifier, keeping track of which copies have been sold, requiring the game to provide this identifier when it connects to the servers, and having your servers refuse connections from duplicate or non-sold IDs.

[Prime32]

* Exception: If communicating with company-owned servers is such an integral part of the game that it is logically impossible to remove without making the game stop working, as with games like WoW and other MMOs, it is possible to use that to make uncrackable protection. Doing so requires giving each copy of the game a unique identifier, keeping track of which copies have been sold, requiring the game to provide this identifier when it connects to the servers, and having your servers refuse connections from duplicate or non-sold IDs.There are whole pirate servers, you know. :smalltongue:

[MrPig]

Exactly. No-DRM games were sold in the past, end they sold well. There's now way for the DRM to win - it's always a losing proposition, both in customer loss, and money loss. Only DRM making firms profit from them.

Without saying too much, DRM only exists for various political and legal reasons, as US law is perfectly fine with someone who defrauds billions of $ through incompetence, but might actually put someone in jail for not installing DRM in the game, despite it increasing profits :smallsigh:

You're forgetting that 10-15 years ago, while games had minimal DRM (cd check/CD-key) most people were on 56k modems and it would take them days to download a 200mb game. I remember it took me 5 hours to download the beta version of Counter Strike and the thing was only about 40 - 60 mb compressed. Now? P2P networks and "cheap" high speed internet allows people to download 5gb+ in a few hours. A popular torrent can give you up to 1mbps download rate. Pirated games are more accessible and the companies are trying to fight that.

That being said, Ubisoft is taking a huge, stupid risk with this fiasco. Companies need to learn that if they establish themselves as a company that can consistently produce quality games, they won't need severe piracy counter measures. Look at BioWare. Mass Effect 2 has a simple disk check and it's the highest selling January release game if not of all time, at the very least in the last 5 to 10 years.

[Douglas]

There are whole pirate servers, you know. :smalltongue:
Well yes, but that depends on the pirates keeping the servers up and rather cuts down on your options for who to play with. Also, if the servers' task is non-trivially more than merely a matching service, keeping the server-side software secret can (I think) make cracking it pretty much require an insider leak.

[warty goblin]

My stance on copy protection/DRM:
1) No matter how draconian or clever you think your solution is, unless you can make the binary game executable so complex and obfuscated that no pirate cracker is going to even be able to figure out how you did it*, a cracked version without your DRM is going to be broadly available to pirates in short order.


People say this, but it isn't actually true. The original Starforce protection of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory wasn't broken until over a year (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24035)after it came out. According to this interview (http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/02/01/digital-rights-and-wrongs-the-state-of-drm/), less difficult to break versions of Starforce- which were moved to after the (unsubstantiated) claims that it damaged hardware- still hold out between three weeks and several months depending on how high profile the game is.

[Solaris]

People say this, but it isn't actually true. The original Starforce protection of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory wasn't broken until over a year (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24035)after it came out. According to this interview (http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/02/01/digital-rights-and-wrongs-the-state-of-drm/), less difficult to break versions of Starforce- which were moved to after the (unsubstantiated) claims that it damaged hardware- still hold out between three weeks and several months depending on how high profile the game is.

Considering how long I usually wait to buy a game? Not an issue. Not that I pirate games, mind you.

Frankly, I think anything more than a CD key is just a pain in the neck. Something this... bad is simply begging for me to never buy this game. Ever.

[warty goblin]

Considering how long I usually wait to buy a game? Not an issue. Not that I pirate games, mind you.

Frankly, I think anything more than a CD key is just a pain in the neck. Something this... bad is simply begging for me to never buy this game. Ever.

Most copy protection isn't aimed at keeping anybody from pirating the game ever. It's usual purpose is to prevent pirated copies being available at or before release. That's when most games move most of their units, and do so for full price, and so is when piracy is the most harmful.

All I intended with the post you qouted was to point out someone else's faulty assumption.

[SaiphSDC]

To bad. I'm interested in AC 2...but I have squirrels.

yes, you read that right, Squirrels. The damned things chew on our phone cables, and the first sign of a problem is high frequency noise...which is what DSL uses. So my DSL cuts out randomly and intermittently on increasingly frequent occasions.

So every month or two, AT&T has to come out, be completely baffled at how the squirrels ate through that much PCV coated wiring that fast, and fix it.

[Worira]

Rocksteady got anti-piracy correct

Still runs on SecuROM.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Welcome to the world of the internet controlled product.
"teh internetz, Guilty until proven- Oh snap, lolcats! Rofl!"

[Zevox]

"DRM? What's that?"

Ah, this sort of thing makes me glad I don't do much computer gaming. Don't need to worry about stupidity like this with consoles.

Won't be participating in the boycott, but then I don't really play any Ubisoft games anyway, so you might as well just say I was already boycotting them. Last games of theirs I played were the Prince of Persia games on the Gamecube, and I only rented those.

Zevox

[Yardo]

Right, this will probably hurt them more then it will prevent piracy. Like already mentioned, there will be hacked versions in no time, like always.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Wow. And how many pirates do you think this deterred?
Zero point oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, one.

[SparkMandriller]

It's lucky Ubisoft hasn't made a good game since the third Splinter Cell, isn't it?

Actually, come to think of it, that was terrible too. But fun terrible, at least.

[Erloas]

"DRM? What's that?"

Ah, this sort of thing makes me glad I don't do much computer gaming. Don't need to worry about stupidity like this with consoles.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if that starts changing very soon. From what I've read in a lot of cases the console versions of games are pirated on par with games for the PC, if not more so. Its not quite as casual as PC pirating, but it is still very common.
With consoles being online so much any more and the patches and installs that so many games require, we probably aren't far away from DRM on consoles. The only reason we probably aren't seeing it already is because of stipulations the console makers put on games currently.

[deuxhero]

So, who else is betting the viruses will be removed by hackers before release again. Mystery of Westgate was delayed a year (which likely hurt sales WAY more than any pirates did) for DRM, and it took a mear week to beat (and I'd wager disintrest than actual difficulty)

[Dust]

I've never pirated a damn thing in my life, and this makes me want to START.

[Trazoi]

Skimming through the articles, it looks like the constant on-line access is to be able to access save states - you will only be able to save to Ubisoft's online servers. If that's the case it probably will be a lot harder to crack as it's not as simple as just disabling a check; the crack will have to provide some way of providing saving. I don't like the trend, but I suspect this is the trend a large number of single player games are going to go. It's a lot easier to protect a game if core elements of the functionality are run on their server.

For me, it's the psychology of the situation that determines where I draw the line on DRM. I don't mind when DRM feels like the equivalent of showing a valid ticket to be allowed entry into an amusement park. But when it feels like the staff are constantly checking my ticket to prove myself, I stop feeling like a valued customer and more like they view everyone as a potential criminal.

[warty goblin]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if that starts changing very soon. From what I've read in a lot of cases the console versions of games are pirated on par with games for the PC, if not more so. Its not quite as casual as PC pirating, but it is still very common.
With consoles being online so much any more and the patches and installs that so many games require, we probably aren't far away from DRM on consoles. The only reason we probably aren't seeing it already is because of stipulations the console makers put on games currently.

PS3 piracy is non-existent at the moment because until quite recently the built-in defenses had not been cracked., XBox and Wii are still behind the PC I believe, but certainly real.

I'll be quite curious to see what protections the next console generation includes. On the one hand the consoles have the advantage of deploying a homogenized system with reasonably invariat hardware, which allows for things simply not possible on the PC. The downside is that it's a homogeneous system, and once it's broken, it's broken everywhere until the next console generation.

[Optimystik]

*puts down 360 controller*

Hey guys, what's all the hubbub?

[Drakyn]

*puts down 360 controller*

Hey guys, what's all the hubbub?

Weren't those supposed to have a 0.04% chance of exploding in gravy-flavoured nuclear radiation or poisoning your cat or something, or was that just on release?

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

*puts down 360 controller*

Hey guys, what's all the hubbub?

*Picks up PS3 controller.*
Oh, nuthin', just goin' to play a DRM free AVP!

Don't think DRM stops at the PC. Know how you can download massive amounts of game information to your HDD but still require a disk? That's called DRM.

[chiasaur11]

I've never pirated a damn thing in my life, and this makes me want to START.

I wish that was true for me.

As is, I downloaded a cracked version of an old game I borrowed from a friend when it wouldn't work on my machine. So, you know, I could be doing better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If nothing else, the draconian DRM will likely draw bored hackers looking for a challenge, thus making it even less effective than normal...

[Thanatos 51-50]

I know! People could boycott the PC-games that use DRM and play on consoles and stuff! That'll work.
/considers whether or not to Pre-order Conviction for the 360 soon.

[nooblade]

People say this, but it isn't actually true. The original Starforce protection of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory wasn't broken until over a year (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24035)after it came out. According to this interview (http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/02/01/digital-rights-and-wrongs-the-state-of-drm/), less difficult to break versions of Starforce- which were moved to after the (unsubstantiated) claims that it damaged hardware- still hold out between three weeks and several months depending on how high profile the game is.

Quote from article, "To reach this goal we had to penetrate into the system pretty deep, as hackers and emulating tools do exactly the same to circumvent protection. It was fighting fire with fire. It is always weird for me to see users hate protection drivers when the Daemon Tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_Tools#Blacklisting) one also operates in Ring 0, but it is highly appreciated. The difference is that the StarForce driver is fully certified for Windows XP and Vista, passed through numerous tests inside Microsoft testlabs. Our company has gained Microsoft Certified Partner and Technological Partner levels. And I can’t say something similar about DT."


Sounds more like hackers were paid off, if you catch my drift.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

If nothing else, the draconian DRM will likely draw bored hackers looking for a challenge, thus making it even less effective than normal...

Why do people always use the terms draconian and archaic when they simply mean, "something I disagree with".

[Thanatos 51-50]

Why do people always use the terms draconian and archaic when they simply mean, "something I disagree with".

Same reason people use "Ironic" when they actually mean "Appropriate and mildly amusing"

[chiasaur11]

Why do people always use the terms draconian and archaic when they simply mean, "something I disagree with".

Draconian works here. I'd file "delete your current progress back to the last lave point if our servers flicker" as unnecessarily cruel by a little, at minimum.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Draconian works here. I'd file "delete your current progress back to the last lave point if our servers flicker" as unnecessarily cruel by a little, at minimum.

Not cruelty, cruelty requires bad intentions against the subject. This is a case of good intentions hurting the wrong people to protect their own wallets.


Same reason people use "Ironic" when they actually mean "Appropriate and mildly amusing"

Or when they simply mean poetic justice.

[chiasaur11]

Not cruelty, cruelty requires bad intentions against the subject. This is a case of good intentions hurting the wrong people to protect their own wallets.




Good intentions?

Most cases, sure. Mainly self interest, but I can see some misplaced good intentions.

Here?

Fat chance. This is the thumbscrews treatment, plain and simple.

Even if the design isn't intentionally cruel, the end result is.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Good intentions?

Most cases, sure. Mainly self interest, but I can see some misplaced good intentions.

Here?

Fat chance. This is the thumbscrews treatment, plain and simple.

Even if the design isn't intentionally cruel, the end result is.

Indeedly-doodly. In this case it's just insanity, but in the end they're just trying to make sure they make money off their product. Though lord knows they'd make money off it even if they put it on Bit Torrent for free.

[warty goblin]

Quote from article, "To reach this goal we had to penetrate into the system pretty deep, as hackers and emulating tools do exactly the same to circumvent protection. It was fighting fire with fire. It is always weird for me to see users hate protection drivers when the Daemon Tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_Tools#Blacklisting) one also operates in Ring 0, but it is highly appreciated. The difference is that the StarForce driver is fully certified for Windows XP and Vista, passed through numerous tests inside Microsoft testlabs. Our company has gained Microsoft Certified Partner and Technological Partner levels. And I can’t say something similar about DT."


Sounds more like hackers were paid off, if you catch my drift.

OK, that is one of the more....impressive logical jumps I've ever seen. From somebody discussing using very deep level drivers to combat somebody else doing the same thing you get to bribery in one easy emphasis. Truly I am in awe.

What certainly reads like conspiracy theories aside, 'fighting fire with fire' usually refers to resorting to the same tactics as your opposition. If software hackers operated mainly by buying people off, then yes, the phrase would suggest that Starforce also did this. Insofar as I know however, software piracy involves using emulators and other work arounds to fool a game into thinking it isn't pirated. Not coincidentally this is pretty much exactly what he was talking about in the rest of the paragraph.

[RS14]

My only objection is that 'boycott' doesn't really feel like the appropriate term here. A boycott, to me, implies that they're discriminating in employment or engaged in unethical behavior, and so you decide not to buy from that company.

It doesn't really feel quite so applicable here. You consider their product unmerchantable, therefor you do not buy that product. You wouldn't say you were 'boycotting' a fruit stand because there wares were rotten.

Now, if you refuse to buy any Ubisoft products, even any DRM free products that Ubisoft should produce, until they decide to remove this particular onerous DRM scheme from production, then sure, I suppose that would be a boycott. I don't get the sense that people would do that, though.

--

Good luck, anyway. It'll probably be more effective if you write them a nice letter, saying how you'd love to play their game, and really really wish they would release it without this onerous DRM so that you would be willing to do so.

"Please! I want to give you money! Why won't you let me!"

Honestly, though, I doubt the typical gamer will care enough to do anything but pirate the cracked game at best. That doesn't really send a desirable message.

[Dixieboy]

I was going to buy AC 2 for the PC (I much prefer my keyboard to a controller), now I probably will be borrowing it from a friend for the 360.
Meh, in the end it doesn't really matter, if people don't buy this because of this ridiculous idea, then they'll probably realize it backfired and find another solution.

[The Extinguisher]

Well, this is ridiculous.

Back to console gaming I go. This always happens, I dip my feet into PC gaming for just a little bit, and then bang. The water turns to acid. That's on fire.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

You know what would work better then an internet boycott which always shows 0% success rate? Getting a bus ticket/plane ticket and picketing outside their HQ.

You know, the whole, DO SOME WORK, in stead of just being lazy, thing. Your voice gets heard when you speak out, not mutter under your breath*.



*IE: Boycotting on teh webz.

[Dixieboy]

Where ever people state their opinion is really irrelevant, the problem is that the boycott will last exactly five seconds.

[Dacia Brabant]

So I guess Ubisoft got sick of being ranked behind the likes of Activision, EA and Atari on the list of worst video game publishers, because this surely shoots them right up to the top. Though I have a sinking feeling that a few of those other idiots might eventually follow suit.

Gah, they'd better pull their heads out by the time BG&E 2 is finally released. :smallmad:

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Where ever people state their opinion is really irrelevant, the problem is that the boycott will last exactly five seconds.

2.5 actually. Left 4 Dead2 outsold Left 4 Dead in what...Two days? Some boycott. Psh.


So I guess Ubisoft got sick of being ranked behind the likes of Activision, EA and Atari on the list of worst video game publishers, because this surely shoots them right up to the top. Though I have a sinking feeling that a few of those other idiots might follow suit.

Gah, they'd better pull their heads out by the time BG&E 2 is finally released. :smallmad:

EA get a bi...By...Bye? Because they made the only game worth playing.

Answer:
American Mcgee's Alice.

[13_CBS]

Now I want to delve into this issue from the perspective of Ubisoft's psychology. That is: what caused the top dogs at Ubisoft to go, "Hey, I think doing this is a good idea"?

Yes, yes, I'm sure the witty responses to this question will be somewhere along the lines of, "Logic? What logic? :smalltongue:", but I'm asking this question legitimately. What was the reason why Ubisoft decided to implement this system, especially in a world where many companies are starting to back off on stringent DRM? If this happened alongside maybe Spore or pre-Steam Mass Effect, then it'd be a little more understandable, but Ubisoft did this "no internet, no game" policy after it all happened, a great many people raged against it, and plenty of other big name companies (IIRC, iTunes) scaled back at least a little bit.

Did Ubisoft overestimate the strength of the average gamer's internet connection? Something else? Legitimate speculation please :smalltongue:

[Dixieboy]

Gah, they'd better pull their heads out by the time BG&E 2 is finally released. :smallmad:
It'll be released in a bundle with Duke nukem forever and Van Buren. :smallwink:

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

It'll be released in a bundle with Duke nukem forever and Van Buren. :smallwink:

In 2012 when the world ends shortly after Nadar gets into the white house.

[chiasaur11]

Now I want to delve into this issue from the perspective of Ubisoft's psychology. That is: what caused the top dogs at Ubisoft to go, "Hey, I think doing this is a good idea"?

Yes, yes, I'm sure the witty responses to this question will be somewhere along the lines of, "Logic? What logic? :smalltongue:", but I'm asking this question legitimately. What was the reason why Ubisoft decided to implement this system, especially in a world where many companies are starting to back off on stringent DRM? If this happened alongside maybe Spore or pre-Steam Mass Effect, then it'd be a little more understandable, but Ubisoft did this "no internet, no game" policy after it all happened, a great many people raged against it, and plenty of other big name companies (IIRC, iTunes) scaled back at least a little bit.

Did Ubisoft overestimate the strength of the average gamer's internet connection? Something else? Legitimate speculation please :smalltongue:

The insane paranoid word on the street is Ubi's looking for an excuse to drop the PC.

I don't entirely buy it, but there you go.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

The insane paranoid word on the street is Ubi's looking for an excuse to drop the PC.

I don't entirely buy it, but there you go.

The insane paranoid word on the street is the bird- I mean, that Ubisoft is insane and paranoid.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know what would work better then an internet boycott which always shows 0% success rate? Getting a bus ticket/plane ticket and picketing outside their HQ.

You know, the whole, DO SOME WORK, in stead of just being lazy, thing. Your voice gets heard when you speak out, not mutter under your breath*.



*IE: Boycotting on teh webz.

Not everyone has a few thousand to buy an international plane ticket with...

Besides, I seriously doubt a picket outside their building would cause them to do anything in the slightest.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Not everyone has a few thousand to buy an international plane ticket with...

Besides, I seriously doubt a picket outside their building would cause them to do anything in the slightest.

It will when you release the hounds with bees in their mouths so that bees come shooting out when they bark.

THE POINT IS: It's retarded to sit and pretend that an internet boycott will have ANY effect when you decide not to spend a grand on the plane ticket.
Sometimes you DO have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face.

[Dacia Brabant]

EA get a bi...By...Bye? Because they made the only game worth playing.

Answer:
American Mcgee's Alice.

Buh?


It'll be released in a bundle with Duke nukem forever and Van Buren. :smallwink:

Can't a man be allowed to dream? :smallfrown:

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Buh?



Can't a man be allowed to dream? :smallfrown:

@ American Mcgee's Alice. Only game ever made that is worth playing. Those whom disagree have a differing opinion, and I stand by both those statements.

And a man is allowed to dream, up until it's about the Duke. He'll whoop your butt for being a sissy who dreams.

[chiasaur11]

Buh?



Can't a man be allowed to dream? :smallfrown:

Sure, but we expect dreams of X-Com Alliance added on top, just to be safe.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It will when you release the hounds with bees in their mouths so that bees come shooting out when they bark.

THE POINT IS: It's retarded to sit and pretend that an internet boycott will have ANY effect when you decide not to spend a grand on the plane ticket.
Sometimes you DO have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face.

It isn't a decision to not spend a grand on the plane ticket, is is not having the resources available to spend *SEVERAL* thousand on an international plane ticket. It isn't laziness, it is lack of funding. Not everyone can drop a few grand at the drop of the hat. If you can? Damn, you go. But 99% of the gamers? Can't. And can't take time off from their jobs to go do it even if they could.

And again, it won't do any more good than any other tactic.

And no, you don't have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face. You simply decide to not play their games. Hit them in the pocketbook will work far faster than a bunch of nutjobs they can disperse with gas (since, yanno, riot laws are a lot stricter in Germany than in the USA) will. And encourage others to do the same. Hence this thread.

It's called a 'grass roots movement'.

[The Extinguisher]

It will when you release the hounds with bees in their mouths so that bees come shooting out when they bark.

THE POINT IS: It's retarded to sit and pretend that an internet boycott will have ANY effect when you decide not to spend a grand on the plane ticket.
Sometimes you DO have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face.

Why the hell should we? What, just because we can't afford to go and picket outside their headquarters, we're not allowed to have an opinion? That's absolutely ridiculous. Heck, I'd love to be able to organize a protest against DRM in my town, but I'm not that involved with the whole protest scene to be able to do so. Boycotts are effective, if people actually boycott it. That's the problem. It's not the fact that we're sitting down while we're fighting. It's that we never fight in the first place.

[Dixieboy]

And no, you don't have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face. You simply decide to not play their games. Hit them in the pocketbook will work far faster than a bunch of nutjobs they can disperse with gas (since, yanno, riot laws are a lot stricter in Germany than in the USA) will. And encourage others to do the same. Hence this thread.

Then they'll be really happy to know that their HQ lies in France. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though; you are completely correct. The problem is, of course, that no one will actually boycott them for this.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

It isn't a decision to not spend a grand on the plane ticket, is is not having the resources available to spend *SEVERAL* thousand on an international plane ticket. It isn't laziness, it is lack of funding. Not everyone can drop a few grand at the drop of the hat. If you can? Damn, you go. But 99% of the gamers? Can't. And can't take time off from their jobs to go do it even if they could.

And again, it won't do any more good than any other tactic.

And no, you don't have to shut up, sit down, and take it with a smile on your face. You simply decide to not play their games. Hit them in the pocketbook will work far faster than a bunch of nutjobs they can disperse with gas (since, yanno, riot laws are a lot stricter in Germany than in the USA) will.
Maybe you missed the point. If you cannot go, what do you do? Accept that it's there and avoid it. DUH!

A simple run down of a boycott:

You can't say not buying a product is a boycott. Because it simply isn't. Boycotting actually requires a conscious action against the subject. To simply say, "Well since I can't get them bee dogs, I'll boycott by not buying", is like saying you're eight feet tall on the internet. You're spouting whiny text to absolutely no one and accomplishing nothing more than looking foolish.
In this case, yes, the only thing you can do is sit down and keep in line. Whether the line is getting the game or not is your decision, but you're not making ANY form of impact by crying on the internet. Don't be foolish enough to think internet whining is more effective then in person whining.




Then they'll be really happy to know that their HQ lies in France. :smallbiggrin:

That aside, I agree with you that a hit on the pocketbook is what could convince them, not a demonstration.

A hit in the pocket book helps, IF IT ACTUALLY HITS. Example: left 4 Dead 2.

[Dacia Brabant]

@ American Mcgee's Alice. Only game ever made that is worth playing.

I understand the words, but that sentence makes no sense.


And a man is allowed to dream, up until it's about the Duke. He'll whoop your butt for being a sissy who dreams.

Meh, he was never anything special to begin with. Certainly not dreamworthy.


Whether the line is getting the game or not is your decision, but you're not making ANY form of impact by crying on the internet. Don't be foolish enough to think internet whining is more effective then in person whining.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: sometimes people just need to feel like they're being heard by someone. If complaining about Ubisoft being stupid does that, then it has accomplished something.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: sometimes people just need to feel like they're being heard by someone. If complaining about Ubisoft being stupid does that, then it has accomplished something.

By all means people need to be heard, but when you you start getting delusions of grandeur, the veil needs to be lifted.

[Shpadoinkle]

Maybe you missed the point. If you cannot go, what do you do? Accept that it's there and avoid it. DUH!

A simple run down of a boycott:

You can't say not buying a product is a boycott. Because it simply isn't.
Uh, yes it is. That is the precise definition of a boycott.



boy⋅cott
  /ˈbɔɪkɒt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1. to combine in abstaining from, or preventing dealings with, as a means of intimidation or coercion: to boycott a store.
[B]2. to abstain from buying or using: to boycott foreign products.


This thread isn't about telling Ubisoft that they suck, this is about telling OTHER PEOPLE, fellow consumers, that Ubisoft sucks, and why.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Uh, yes it is. That is the precise definition of a boycott.



This thread isn't about telling Ubisoft that they suck, this is about telling OTHER PEOPLE, fellow consumers, that Ubisoft sucks, and why.

As such boycott is action, not buying the game is inaction. If I wouldn't have bought it because the game is garbage, why would my position change because of this? No action is taken. But if we're going to argue semantics we'll be here decades.

[The Extinguisher]

As such boycott is action, not buying the game is inaction. If I wouldn't have bought it because the game is garbage, why would my position change because of this? No action is taken. But if we're going to argue semantics we'll be here decades.

The whole point of a boycott is to get other people to not buy it as well. Which is what this thread is doing.

[Tavar]

As such boycott is action, not buying the game is inaction. If I wouldn't have bought it because the game is garbage, why would my position change because of this? No action is taken. But if we're going to argue semantics we'll be here decades.

So, if you get a bunch of people to boycott a bus system, what are they doing to do? My guess would be to not buy bus tickets/not ride on buses, but maybe I'm wrong. Of course, if I'm right, please explain the difference between that and this. Please.

[Shpadoinkle]

So, if you get a bunch of people to boycott a bus system, what are they doing to do? My guess would be to not buy bus tickets/not ride on buses, but maybe I'm wrong. Of course, if I'm right, please explain the difference between that and this. Please.

As far as I can tell he seems to think that boycotting means picketing.

[RS14]

So, if you get a bunch of people to boycott a bus system, what are they doing to do? My guess would be to not buy bus tickets/not ride on buses, but maybe I'm wrong. Of course, if I'm right, please explain the difference between that and this. Please.

The difference between consumer awareness and a boycott, as I see it, is the difference between "your product is a worthless, ill-conceived piece of junk, and I'm not going to buy this product as provided" and "you are a terrible, bigoted, obnoxious twit, and we're not going to buy any of your products to punish you for it."

A question: How many people would refuse to buy DRM free Ubisoft products, if Ubisoft published such products alongside products with this onerous DRM system? I personally don't see why I would refuse. AC2 is their product; I don't particularly care how they ruin it, as long as they don't try to surprise me with their misfeatures.


boycott, n. Withdrawal from social or commercial interaction or cooperation with a group, nation, person, etc., intended as a protest or punishment.

[DranWork]

Boycott: FDM, you keep using that word.. I dont think it means what you think it means!

well for me anyway this means i wont be getting this game, if only cause its now craptasticly flawed. Silly companies.

[KBF]

Yeah, I don't think anyone expects them to change.

We're just letting eachother know that as a community we won't be buying Assassin's Creed 2, or any other Ubisoft games, because of this. In fact, I'm going to go one step further.

Stop whining about our boycott, you aren't going to change our opinions. If you actually care, I live in California. Come make me change my mind.


As such boycott is action, not buying the game is inaction. If I wouldn't have bought it because the game is garbage, why would my position change because of this? No action is taken. But if we're going to argue semantics we'll be here decades.

Except most of us were going to buy the game. Because of this, we decided against it. Technically, it's a boycott.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

By all means people need to be heard, but when you you start getting delusions of grandeur, the veil needs to be lifted.

I'm sorry, did you just try to claim that you can lift the veil of delusion from the entire internet? Kettle? This is Pot. You're black.

[Avilan the Grey]

I can't read the actual article, because I am at work and they block most gaming sites.

Can someone sum it up?

Other than that... I have a split view of DRM etc:

1. I don't like it.
2. I usually get the games anyway, since I don't think it's that big of a deal.
3. We brought it on ourselves ("we" being the ones that used to buy 90 minute cassette tapes with 200-300 C64 games on them, then moved on to freely spread Amiga disks with games and finally in our teens happily pirated PC games left and right). At some point the Industry was bound to respond.
(Yes I used to pirate games when I was a kid. It was a different time then... Now I buy my games, preferring digital releases since it makes things so much easier).

[DranWork]

basicly the artical states that in order to play this game on pc you need to have an always active internet connection or have the game force quit itself. So for all thoes like myself that have an unstable internet connection unless the moon is red we cant play this game at all.

[Kyouhen]

FDM, you keep using the attempted L4D2 boycott as an example of why this isn't going to work but it was a very different situation.

L4D2 was being boycotted because people felt it didn't deserve to be a full stand-alone game. They figured it would end up being exactly like L4D, and felt cheated because Valve promised to support L4D for free then released what was seen as one big add-on to it. They were wrong. The people who had started the group admitted they were wrong. This is why the boycott failed.

We are talking about boycotting Ubisoft's games because of this DRM for Assassin's Creed 2. We have been told exactly what it will do. There is no secrets here, there is no possibility that we could be mistaken on our view of it. The people boycotting L4D2 thought it was nothing more than a big patch back before they had a chance to play it. Making accusations without getting all the information they needed doomed their boycott, but we already know all there is to know about this new DRM.

[KBF]

I can't read the actual article, because I am at work and they block most gaming sites.

Can someone sum it up?

Ubisoft is releasing DRM that, while working without CD, no installation limits and uses cloud computing to keep save states across computers. If you ever lose internet connection your game is paused until it reconnects. Playing offline is outright impossible. If you, for any reason, cannot constantly check in with Ubisoft, you can't play.

[Magnor Criol]

What FDM's trying to say is that there's got to be some form of action involved here.

To him, it looks like you guys aren't doing anything except deciding not to buy the game, which in and of itself isn't a boycott - I'm not boycotting the grocery store at this very moment simply because I'm not there buying fruit, right? A boycott takes some form of action, of protest, to make it a boycott.

To you, you are taking that action - you're telling other people not to buy the product, in the hopes that lots of people will jointly not buy the game and thus be an active abstinence from Ubisoft.

Point is, I think you're both somewhat on the same page, you're just missing each other's mark a bit. What you need to be arguing isn't how you define boycotting, it's whether or not your action of "Start a thread in GiantITP and discuss/rant" is enough to validate the idea as an active protest move.

[SparkMandriller]

Stop whining about our boycott, you aren't going to change our opinions. If you actually care, I live in California. Come make me change my mind.

SAY THAT TO MY FACE NOT ONLINE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS

[KBF]

SAY THAT TO MY FACE NOT ONLINE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS

WE WILL WON'T WE

SEE YOU WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT

[Tavar]

That analogy is flawed. Boycotts aren't simply not buying something, there's a large measure of intent involved, as well as a pledge. By pledge, I mean that you have to not only not buy it right now, but not buy it later on as well.

[RS14]

We're just letting eachother know that as a community we won't be buying Assassin's Creed 2, or any other Ubisoft games, because of this. In fact, I'm going to go one step further.

Why? As I said, "I don't particularly care how they ruin their products, as long as they don't try to surprise me with their misfeatures." Why should such DRM impact my decision to buy or not to buy other games by the same publisher? I honestly don't get it at all.

[Magnor Criol]

Why? As I said, "I don't particularly care how they ruin their products, as long as they don't try to surprise me with their misfeatures." Why should such DRM impact my decision to buy or not to buy other games by the same publisher? I honestly don't get it at all.

It's part of the protest statement. It's saying "This action offends me so much, not only are you not getting my money for that product, you're not getting ANY of my money." In general - assuming a large portion of the population does it - it has more impact, if less precision, than avoiding a single product.


That analogy is flawed. Boycotts aren't simply not buying something, there's a large measure of intent involved, as well as a pledge. By pledge, I mean that you have to not only not buy it right now, but not buy it later on as well.

That's exactly my point. It's not a boycott when I'm simply not buying something, I have to actively commit to not buying something - a pledge, to use your terms. I agree with that.

And FDM does, too. What he's saying is that he doesn't think most of the boycotters ARE doing any sort of pledge, they're just ranting about being mad and saying they won't buy it.

Er - I should add, I'm putting a LOT of conjecture into things here, and I hope I'm not putting words into FDM's mouth that don't belong there. But I think I'm right about what he's saying.

I'll also say that based on past observation of internet rants and "boycott" cries, I don't blame his skepticism. I realize there's different situations here as with every one (here more dramatically, perhaps), but there's not exactly a long history of success here. Lots of people DO simply rant and fume and then go buy the game after just a few days of abstaining.

[AgentPaper]

That analogy is flawed. Boycotts aren't simply not buying something, there's a large measure of intent involved, as well as a pledge. By pledge, I mean that you have to not only not buy it right now, but not buy it later on as well.

I see a large intent here to not buy games from Ubisoft until they stop this DRM nonsense. Sounds like a boycott to me.

You're right that most internet "boycotts" are ineffective, but that's because they're not actually boycotting them, not because boycotts or internet boycotts are inherently ineffective.

Also, that save-online feature sounds good, and similar to what they're doing with SC2 and battle.net. It's the part where you can't also save on your own computer and the game stops going when you aren't on the internet that just crosses the line into absurdity.

[Grumman]

Why? As I said, "I don't particularly care how they ruin their products, as long as they don't try to surprise me with their misfeatures." Why should such DRM impact my decision to buy or not to buy other games by the same publisher? I honestly don't get it at all.
Because as long as Ubisoft can still recognise the cause of the boycott, not buying $2X worth of their games will work faster than not buying $X worth of their games.

[KBF]

Why? As I said, "I don't particularly care how they ruin their products, as long as they don't try to surprise me with their misfeatures." Why should such DRM impact my decision to buy or not to buy other games by the same publisher? I honestly don't get it at all.

Ignoring that this DRM will likely be used for their new games, it's solidarity. On second thought, boycotting only the games with this DRM might work too. The idea is that if they act maliciously towards customers, customers stop supporting them. They lose potential money. Companies don't like losing money. So they're likely to stop whatever is making them lose money. On one hand, boycotting their other games would keep as much money from them as possible making the impromptu boycott look as strong as possible. On the other hand, boycotting only the DRM would send a message that we.. Don't like the DRM and support when they don't use it, but then they don't lose as much money and they don't care as much.

[Drascin]

So wait, they're basically actively encouraging piratism by making products where an illegal version is going to be superior? That seems like poor business sense if I've ever seen some. Last of my money they're seeing until this idiocy stops.


Ayup, pretty much.

Wow. Just... wow. And as we all know - who wants to bet a cracked version will appear two weeks after the game's released?

Besides, let me please indulge in a bit of thought here. Ubisoft hates pirates enough to make this. The reason they hate pirates is because they theorethically cost them sales. But the problem is, this will also cost them a lot of sales! If I was in wifi, or had a moderately unreliable connection, I'd never, ever buy this game - a random loss of signal kicking me from a singleplayer game? Yeah, no.

The amont of people in moderately untrustworthy wifi routers is about as high as the number of pirates, if not higher. Hence, I really would like to see what chain of reasoning led Ubisoft to this. Or do they actually just want to retract from the PC market, and want AC2 to sell horribly so they can say "see, we won't make games for PC because they don't sell"? I mean, it's about the only reason I can think up for what is basically shooting themelves in the leg.

[RS14]

Hm. I retract my previous statements about this not being a true boycott. I didn't realize people were refusing to buy all Ubisoft products.


It's part of the protest statement. It's saying "This action offends me so much, not only are you not getting my money for that product, you're not getting ANY of my money."

I see.

I'm just not that offended though. It's like they set up a sign saying "Swift Kick to the Balls: $5." What of it? It's a worthless product, sure, but I don't see that as anything but a reason not to buy the junk.


Ignoring that this DRM will likely be used for their new games, it's solidarity. On second thought, boycotting only the games with this DRM might work too. The idea is that if they act maliciously towards customers, customers stop supporting them. They lose potential money. Companies don't like losing money. So they're likely to stop whatever is making them lose money. On one hand, boycotting their other games would keep as much money from them as possible making the impromptu boycott look as strong as possible. On the other hand, boycotting only the DRM would send a message that we.. Don't like the DRM and support when they don't use it, but then they don't lose as much money and they don't care as much.

Frankly, I'm convinced that any organized boycott will fail. No matter how strong of will and one of mind we may be, there are more people who just don't care. So it seems rather optimistic to me to think that you'll accomplish anything financially. That leaves only the principle of it--junk products should not be supported, therefor I will neither buy nor pirate them.

If you want something effective, you might try stuffing Amazon comment fields with warnings, like they did with Spore. That sort of worked, didn't it?

--

I guess part of my view on this stems from the feeling that I'm not really part of the mainstream gaming community. I'm not too worried about the future of it. You all go jump off a cliff, if you're into that. I'll keep playing the DRM free stuff I've got. It's not going stale. I'll play free games like Nethack. Maybe if the industry really goes to the dogs, I'll write some stuff for myself personally.


Wow. Just... wow. And as we all know - who wants to bet a cracked version will appear two weeks after the game's released?

Two weeks? Spore was available via Bittorrent a few days prior to release. Well done, SecuROM. :smallamused:

[Grumman]

I see.

I'm just not that offended though. It's like they set up a sign saying "Swift Kick to the Balls: $5." What of it? It's a worthless product, sure, but I don't see that as anything but a reason not to buy the junk.
It's more like if they set up a sign saying "Candy: $5" with the Swift Kick to the Balls only mentioned in the smallest font available. Even if you know that what they really mean is "Swift Kick to the Balls: $5", that's little consolation to anyone that doesn't. I don't think it's that unlikely that Joe Average will buy their product, not realising "DRM" translates to "You cannot play this legally owned game".

[Smight]

So they're likely to stop whatever is making them lose money.

Like making games for PC.

[Bouregard]

For more then 10 years there are the same steps for illegal copys:
1. Install game from original disc/downloaded archive/mounted image
2. Download Crack + Keygen from your favourite page and install it.
3. Run the game and have fun. Repeat Step 1-2 for every patch you might want.


Now we switch to legal copies:
1. Install game from orginal disc
2. Look for a CD Key printed somewhere you will look last in a writing style thats perfect for confusing 0 and O or I and 1
3. Register your game by at least one Community plattform you'll never visit again
4. Restart your PC to allow every single part of the copyprotection to set up tents in the most vulnerable areas of your PC
5. Install Updates or don't play. People with slow connections that just want to play an hour will have to download the MAC Support+ removed typo patch for 200 mb.
6. Install updates for all those community tools you might have been forced to install.
7. Hope your connection is stable.



So why do I pay 50€ again? I seriously ask this. It's not money that matters here. I just feel cheated that someone paying nothing gets more of a game then myself, the legal buyer.



10 Years ago:

We got real manuals and a real gamebox. Yes most games included stickers and posters. Today we call this a collectors edition.

Illegal procedure was exactly the same, you just have to wait longer for your no-cd-crack as download was kinda slow.

Legal procedure was limited to buying -installing and playing. More serious games required you to keep the cd in the drive. But most games could do a full install and would never bother you again.

Demo versions we're the standart not the exception. Every big game came with a demo before release. Oh and patching was an exception or optional. Most games had one or two of them. Not something weekly.

For a few months now I'm a big fan of steam now. With a good internet connection gaming is funny and without to much hassle. But still I have to be online.

[Avilan the Grey]

Ubisoft is releasing DRM that, while working without CD, no installation limits and uses cloud computing to keep save states across computers. If you ever lose internet connection your game is paused until it reconnects. Playing offline is outright impossible. If you, for any reason, cannot constantly check in with Ubisoft, you can't play.

Ok. This is bad, but it is also an awful business decision, because not everyone is as lucky as I am that has an extremely fast, very reliable fiber connection directly on to the internetz. I would have no problem with this copy protection but I won't buy the game anyway since it holds no interest for me whatsoever.

Now I can see this type of copy protection work in say 10 years because the idea of NOT being constantly connected is becoming the odd one.

[Avilan the Grey]

For more then 10 years there are the same steps for illegal copys:
1. Install game from original disc/downloaded archive/mounted image
2. Download Crack + Keygen from your favourite page and install it.
3. Run the game and have fun. Repeat Step 1-2 for every patch you might want.


Now we switch to legal copies:
1. Install game from orginal disc
2. Look for a CD Key printed somewhere you will look last in a writing style thats perfect for confusing 0 and O or I and 1
3. Register your game by at least one Community plattform you'll never visit again
4. Restart your PC to allow every single part of the copyprotection to set up tents in the most vulnerable areas of your PC
5. Install Updates or don't play. People with slow connections that just want to play an hour will have to download the MAC Support+ removed typo patch for 200 mb.
6. Install updates for all those community tools you might have been forced to install.
7. Hope your connection is stable.

Well to be fair, these days it is more like:

1. Download game from online retailer
2. copy easily read key from e-mail from retailer into the "enter key here" field (either in game, or downloading platform)
3. Register game, get lots of cool stuff and DLCs for free. Maybe even frequently use the forums for hints, tips and news
4. Don't restart your PC, since I can't recall a single game for the last 5 years that required it
5. Install updates if you want to (I don't play MMORPGS), otherwise not
6. Install updates for the downloading platform you choose to join since it makes it so much easier to buy games
7a. Ignore steps 1-6 if you don't have a stable connection OR
7b. Enjoy your games.

[KBF]

Frankly, I'm convinced that any organized boycott will fail. No matter how strong of will and one of mind we may be, there are more people who just don't care. So it seems rather optimistic to me to think that you'll accomplish anything financially.

It's obviously not a real, large, organized boycott. But it's spreading the news among the community and we discuss it. It's better than supporting these practices, at the very least. Ignoring the problem does nothing. Of course, this is a hard stance for me to take as I loved the original, don't own a console, and have been waiting for the PC version for awhile now. Still, I heavily dislike the DRM they are using, and find it harmful to gamers without access to a solid internet connection. I don't want to support ditching them. So here I am.

So no, it's not a 'junk product' to me. I'm part of their demographic. But they scrawled the "kick in the balls" down there in the agreement. Worse, it's basically "kick in the balls (for the less fortunate)". It's like an anti-charity.

[Grey Paladin]

Inaction, is an action. To walk around and shout like a moron doesn't do anything but relieve stress and make you think democracy actually works :smalltongue: If you were going to spend money on their products and don't, for them, that's infinitely more damaging than you giving the guard at the entrance an headache.

[hamishspence]

Bad publicity always hurts.

If people who object actively discourage others from buying, get high profile reviewers to write articles severely criticizing the decision, and so on, the company might rethink it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Inaction, is an action. To walk around and shout like a moron doesn't do anything but relieve stress and make you think democracy actually works :smalltongue: If you were going to spend money on their products and don't, for them, that's infinitely more damaging than you giving the guard at the entrance an headache.

The point made though is that for a boycott to really work you have to be a large portion of the potential customer pool and you have to make sure the manufacturer knows why there is a boycott. Otherwise they will decide it was "because it was too much snow so people didn't feel like going to the store" or something.

[Trixie]

2) Making your game program sufficiently hard to decipher will absolutely require a large investment of time and money just for that task, probably more than is actually worth it. Even if you do spend those resources, there's a very high chance that what you thought was good enough will turn out to be cracked quite quickly, rendering your investment truly meaningless.

Yup. Unfortunately, not encrypting the game your company produced can land you in a jail, so some execs prefer to waste money to cover their own asses.

Which is especially laughable as there are a few ways to stop piracy without DRM.


* Exception: If communicating with company-owned servers is such an integral part of the game that it is logically impossible to remove without making the game stop working, as with games like WoW and other MMOs, it is possible to use that to make uncrackable protection. Doing so requires giving each copy of the game a unique identifier, keeping track of which copies have been sold, requiring the game to provide this identifier when it connects to the servers, and having your servers refuse connections from duplicate or non-sold IDs.

You know, WoW has been cracked years ago. It's called non-official servers. Sure, the best ones are usually official ones, but non-official server with strict guidelines can be better.


You're forgetting that 10-15 years ago, while games had minimal DRM (cd check/CD-key) most people were on 56k modems and it would take them days to download a 200mb game. I remember it took me 5 hours to download the beta version of Counter Strike and the thing was only about 40 - 60 mb compressed. Now? P2P networks and "cheap" high speed internet allows people to download 5gb+ in a few hours. A popular torrent can give you up to 1mbps download rate. Pirated games are more accessible and the companies are trying to fight that.

Um... Are you that young? Old games didn't have just CD Checks; they had some of the most invasive, annoying DRMs possible, including code wheels, typing whole sentences from books, picture-matching, game stoppers, etc.

And going to a friend with a stack of floppies was quick, actually, cd's hold dozens of games back then, there vere whole pirated game malls, or mail-sharing. Lack of net wasn't a problem then, if anything, piracy was more widespread.

Plus, ME2 isn't the only top-title without DRM, Oblivion also sold extremely well.

By the way, you know what is funny in this thread? Ignorant console players praising their ultra-heavy DRM systems as DRM-free, despite such heavy DRMisation being illegal in most normal countries. Oh, well, another case of people ignorant of their rights and what their machines actually do/are supposed to do.

And the funniest thing is, they pay 300% of the same game price (compared to PC) for inferior, crippled product, and are happy thanks to their lack of information. Heh.


People say this, but it isn't actually true. The original Starforce protection of Splinter Cell Chaos Theory wasn't broken until over a year (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24035)after it came out. According to this interview (http://savygamer.co.uk/2010/02/01/digital-rights-and-wrongs-the-state-of-drm/), less difficult to break versions of Starforce- which were moved to after the (unsubstantiated) claims that it damaged hardware- still hold out between three weeks and several months depending on how high profile the game is.

That is a lie! :smallsigh: Maybe it took a year for a full cracks, but I've checked and workarounds were available nine days after premiere. They took the most aggressive, intrusive ring 0 rootkit and it held a bit more than a week! :smallsigh:

And excuse me, what do you mean by "unsubstantiated" claims? That thing was capable of crippling systems with most cheap CD readers, and you couldn't even repair that damage with Windows CD repair mode, why, you should be able to guess. You had to go to repair shop or do some havy, not exactly legal work on the internets.

Oh, and no one informed you that thing installed, and it was irremovable, even with official tools. Yeah, I wonder why people were unhappy with something that killed hardware of paying customers so some guys could line their pockets? :smallsigh:

The only excuse they have is the market they were preparing it for, but it's a very slight excuse.

[The Dark Fiddler]

The point made though is that for a boycott to really work you have to be a large portion of the potential customer pool and you have to make sure the manufacturer knows why there is a boycott. Otherwise they will decide it was "because it was too much snow so people didn't feel like going to the store" or something.

Unless you get a widespread effort, such as what would happen over the internet. I doubt they'd be able to say such when their sales are dropping in New York, London, and Moscow at the same time.


By the way, you know what is funny in this thread? Ignorant console players praising their ultra-heavy DRM systems as DRM-free, despite such heavy DRMisation being illegal in most normal countries. Oh, well, another case of people ignorant of their rights and what their machines actually do/are supposed to do.

Please explain. I game almost exclusively on consoles, and the only DRM I've ever encountered was the disc needing to actually be in the console.


And the funniest thing is, they pay 300% of the same game price (compared to PC) for inferior, crippled product, and are happy thanks to their lack of information. Heh.

[citation needed]

A quick search on Amazon shows the console version of Aliens vs. Predator being a mere $6 more expensive. How exactly is that 300% more? When I look for Left 4 Dead 2, it's actually $5 cheaper on the consoles!

I'll admit, it's a small sample size, and more sources than Amazon would be great, but I'm sure more searches would turn up the same.

[Avilan the Grey]

[citation needed]

A quick search on Amazon shows the console version of Aliens vs. Predator being a mere $6 more expensive. How exactly is that 300% more? When I look for Left 4 Dead 2, it's actually $5 cheaper on the consoles!


Might differ in different countries. Here console games usually range from 649 - 849 SEK, while PC games usually range between 349 to 599 SEK.

($1 approx equals 7.20 SEK)

[Ashery]

Re: AC2:

Call it a boycott or not, arguing about the name of the action (And yes, inaction is an action) is pointless.

Hell, it shouldn't even matter if you expect your action to have a noticeable impact on Ubisoft's bottom line.

Adopt a set of principles and actually *stick* to them. It ultimately doesn't matter whether the person next to you does or doesn't.

Re: DRM in general:

The only type of "DRM" that would work for me is a note mentioning that for a developer to be able to create the games that we, as gamers, enjoy so much, they have to be able to make a living. A reminder that, if no one buys the games, no one would be able to develop them. (Yes, I realize that that, technically, is not true as there *are* free games out there, but that would distract from the point being made.)

This type of invasive/excessive DRM would just turn me off of a game completely, regardless of how interested in it I was originally. I'm sure I could find other things to do with the time I would've otherwise spent playing.

[Jahkaivah]

Like making games for PC.

It's not losing them money, it's possible to market DRM-free games to the PC and still make a profit despite piracy, otherwise marketed PC games would not get made at all.

DRM is an attempt to maximise profits.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's not losing them money, it's possible to market games to the PC and still make a profit despite piracy, otherwise PC ports would not get made at all.

Exactly.

Also, statistics are funny. According to Swedish statistics, the amount of store-bought games have gone down with quite a lot (10% in a year if I remember correctly) which is painted as a large problem.

These statistics does not cover the fact that online direct download (EA Store / Steam / etc) has really gone through the roof.
It seems to be the case that the normal Game Store will be in trouble (or switch to Console games only) while the average PC gamer will buy his or her games online in the future.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Might differ in different countries. Here console games usually range from 649 - 849 SEK, while PC games usually range between 349 to 599 SEK.

($1 approx equals 7.20 SEK)

Oh, right. Other countries exist.

I always tend to forget that. :smallconfused:

[Drascin]

By the way, you know what is funny in this thread? Ignorant console players praising their ultra-heavy DRM systems as DRM-free, despite such heavy DRMisation being illegal in most normal countries. Oh, well, another case of people ignorant of their rights and what their machines actually do/are supposed to do.

And the funniest thing is, they pay 300% of the same game price (compared to PC) for inferior, crippled product, and are happy thanks to their lack of information. Heh.

...What? I'm calling crap here.

Console game: 60€ (50 if it's Wii)
PC Game: 50€

These prices are basically immobile for each and every big line release. Each and every game comes out at this price, unless it's a less publicized/smaller game (say, stuff like Avencast) in which case it's 30€.

Mass Effect? 50. Command&Conquer3? 50. Dawn of War II? 55, actually, for some weird reason. They go down later, but every game comes out at those prices. It's the industry standard 'round these places.

A 15% increase and a 300% increase are very different things.

Also, as for the DRM... what? Most console games have the fact that they can only be played in a certain type of platform as their sole DRM. You can take the same copy to five friends' houses and play with the same disc in each without the slightest problem, or lend it, ot buy second hand, without the slightest worry that DRM is going to kick you in the nuts. So either you're understanding something completely different as the rest of us do when you say DRM, or I plain don't understand what you're talking about.

[Optimystik]

*Picks up PS3 controller.*
Oh, nuthin', just goin' to play a DRM free AVP!

Don't think DRM stops at the PC. Know how you can download massive amounts of game information to your HDD but still require a disk? That's called DRM.

I never said I was free from DRM. I can guarantee. though, that my game won't kick me out if my internet connection drops. :smallwink:



Also, as for the DRM... what? Most console games have the fact that they can only be played in a certain type of platform as their sole DRM. You can take the same copy to five friends' houses and play with the same disc in each without the slightest problem, or lend it, ot buy second hand, without the slightest worry that DRM is going to kick you in the nuts. So either you're understanding something completely different as the rest of us do when you say DRM, or I plain don't understand what you're talking about.

Also, this. And because I can actually buy console games used, I'm paying a hell of a lot less than I would for PC games.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Is it really boycott if you just don't buy a bad product? The game doesn't function. Ergo, you don't buy it. If Toyota releases a car that doesn't run, I don't get all huffy and "boycott" it. I just ignore it and let the market do its work. DRM is awful, yes, but IMO people get a wee bit too sanctimonious in their reaction to it.

[Sholos]

It's a boycott in the sense that you're actively avoiding the purchase of the game and encouraging others to do the same. The idea is to say that this idea isn't going to generate any money.

[factotum]

I am one of the few people around who still actually buys all their PC games. I liked Assassin's Creed, and would definitely have bought the sequel. But, as many people have already said, this is way too far. I have a wet piece of string 3Mbps (if I'm lucky) ADSL connection--it just isn't reliable enough to risk my progress in a game on. Therefore, AC2 is now off my list of "Games to buy when released" unless it releases with a less restrictive copy protection system.

[Zeful]

Also, as for the DRM... what? Most console games have the fact that they can only be played in a certain type of platform as their sole DRM. You can take the same copy to five friends' houses and play with the same disc in each without the slightest problem, or lend it, ot buy second hand, without the slightest worry that DRM is going to kick you in the nuts. So either you're understanding something completely different as the rest of us do when you say DRM, or I plain don't understand what you're talking about.

I believe that Trixie is referring to the region lock of the last few generations of consoles. You couldn't play a North American Copy of Super Mario World without buying a North American SNES to play it on (or fiddle with the chipset on your SNES (assuming you aren't part of North America)), however, for the most part, only the 360 is region-locked (I think) as the PS3/PSP isn't, and the Wii might be (but I'm pretty confident isn't). I can import a Japanese retail copy of [insert PS3 game here] and put it into my American Retail PS3 and have it work, and have everything in english.

Also I have no problem what-so-ever with DRM, and this makes me simply facepalm.

[Optimystik]

Region-lock is rarely a problem for me - I don't import games, and I'm probably not going to be traveling that far with my XBox in tow anytime soon. If it ever really becomes onerous, an hour or so with google should turn up a bypass method.

[RS14]

It's more like if they set up a sign saying "Candy: $5" with the Swift Kick to the Balls only mentioned in the smallest font available. Even if you know that what they really mean is "Swift Kick to the Balls: $5", that's little consolation to anyone that doesn't. I don't think it's that unlikely that Joe Average will buy their product, not realising "DRM" translates to "You cannot play this legally owned game".

I suppose. The gaming industry has been doing this sort of crap with DRM for years, though. If you're going to get angry about this, get angry about every other DRM-encumbered product ever published. It's like buying candy and getting a kick to the shins for years, and now they want to give you a kick to the balls. And I just can't get upset about this anymore.

Besides, if the games is really unmertchantable, you can demand a refund.

"An item is deemed merchantable if it is reasonably fit for the ordinary purposes for which such products are manufactured and sold. For example, soap is merchantable if it cleans. In general, a seller or manufacturer is required by law to make products of merchantable quality. In the event that the items do not meet with the proper standards, a suit can be brought against the seller or manufacturer by anyone who is injured as a result."

[Jahkaivah]

Also, this. And because I can actually buy console games used, I'm paying a hell of a lot less than I would for PC games.

Less than £3.25 for Mass Effect during a steam sale? :smalltongue:


Is it really boycott if you just don't buy a bad product? The game doesn't function. Ergo, you don't buy it. If Toyota releases a car that doesn't run, I don't get all huffy and "boycott" it. I just ignore it and let the market do its work.

Might want a better analogy, cars have standards that have to be met by law, games don't.

[Avilan the Grey]

Region-lock is rarely a problem for me - I don't import games, and I'm probably not going to be traveling that far with my XBox in tow anytime soon. If it ever really becomes onerous, an hour or so with google should turn up a bypass method.

Funny thing is that the region lock on DVDs are no longer considered valid copy protection (courts in Europe has ruled that the movie companies have no right to block users from different regions and that selling openly region free DVD players are legal. Basically the movie studios failed to prove that Region coding had anything to do with actual copy protection).

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

{scrubbed}

[Oslecamo]

Less than £3.25 for Mass Effect during a steam sale? :smalltongue:



I got Zelda Minish Cap by 5 euros once on my local store :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Less than £3.25 for Mass Effect during a steam sale? :smalltongue:

3.25? I can get ME1 for free, simply by borrowing a friend's copy. The save stays on my HD, ready to import my Shepard into ME2. I keep my achievements too.

[Triaxx]

I've actually been seeing some computer games coming out at $60 a piece. They rather quickly drop to $50 for some reason.

Boycott Ubisoft? No, I'm just going to vote with my money. And my vote (money), is going to someone else now. If the company insists on treating me like a criminal, I simply won't deal with them. And I'll tell everyone I know, why I'm doing it and ask them to do the same.

Some of you scoff at the power of the internet as a means of distributing backlash. But when you realize that instead of just standing on a hill shouting and reaching a few people, you can stand on the internet and reach people around the world. I can tell people from Osaka to Ohio, to London and Moscow why they shouldn't buy from Ubisoft. If I want to buy a Ubisoft game, I will. But I'll buy a used one where they won't make any profit from it.

Companies understand nothing but the bottom line, so if you want to hurt them, you have to be a threat to the bottom line. Anything else they'll ignore.

[Jahkaivah]

3.25? I can get ME1 for free, simply by borrowing a friend's copy. The save stays on my HD, ready to import my Shepard into ME2. I keep my achievements too.

That's not because "I can actually buy console games used".

It's possible to lend people steam accounts as well, and they can play Offline while you play Online.

[shadow_archmagi]

Bought Shadow of Cherynoble for 10 dollars during one sale.

Got call of pripyat for 20 dollars (normal price 30!) because I had Shadow of Cherynoble.

Got half life 1 for a dollar

Got the entire Star Wars Jedi Knight (Dark Forces, Dark Forces 2, Jedi Academy, Jedi Outcast, Mystery of Sith) pack for 10 dollars

Orange box was 5 games for 50 dollars, which works out to 10 each. Civ 4 was 30 dollars when I bought it.

Multiwinia and Darwinia were ten dollars, Counterstrike was 10...

I don't think there's a single game on computer that I paid more than 40 dollars for.


I think the "Your game will periodically kick you back to the main menu without saving" is a really nasty bug.

[Optimystik]

That's not because "I can actually buy console games used".

It's an option not available with many PC games, due to DRM.

If you want a more monetary version - I can rent a game with Gamefly, beat it and return it, for the same benefit.

[Jahkaivah]

It's an option not available with many PC games, due to DRM.

Hence this thread. Or atleast, might be, it all depends on whether Ubisoft's DRM can be cracked.


If you want a more monetary version - I can rent a game with Gamefly, beat it and return it, for the same benefit.

And I still suspect that doesn't beat £3.25 :smalltongue:

Even if it does, yes consoles games have benefits as do PC games, but they aren't as far reaching as you imply.

Besides this thread really doesn't want another platform debate.


Incidently PC gaming might actually be recieving a second-hand market soon, it depends on how well this turns out. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/01/21/a-second-hand-market-for-download-games/)

[DaedalusMkV]

So, then if you want to boycott, you either sacrifice PC gaming as a whole, or you demonstrate.
I was right there with you until you said this. Because this is not the case; in this case, boycotting would be sending a letter to Ubisoft saying something along the lines of "The DRM in AC2 is supid and you're an idiot for supporting it, I refuse to buy any more of your products until you reverse this trend", then not buying any of Ubisoft's products until the problem goes away. You make your intentions known then stick with them. What you seem to be implying is that either you have to stop playing games entirely (???) or stage protests and demonstrations, which is amazingly unlikely.

I agree that this is just rediculous. Companies like Stardock have made it abundantly clear that DRM-free games are completely viable, and even EA (whose evilness meter seems to be on a steady decline these last few years,) has been moving more and more towards very simple, non-invasive DRM. This sort of brutal, game-breaking methodology just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not certain that I'll join in any boycott (I really like a lot of Ubisoft Console games, even though I never buy their PC versions), but I think I'll continue my abstinence from their PC offerings.


Off-topic: I really can't understand the love out there for Steam. It's nice in some ways, but I've had a ton of trouble with Steam, either in installing games I own or launcing games that are already installed. It's been extremely frustrating, and Steam-based multiplayer has been extremely poor in a lot of my games. It's reached the point where I'm considering just not buying anything that requires it, ever. Not being allowed to play my games because your server isn't working does not make me happy :smallfurious:

[RS14]

{Scrubbed}
{Scrubbed}


This is frankly ridiculous. Would you be upset if they refuse to sell the game at all? How is selling it with unreasonable terms any different from not selling it at all? If you're so offended by these terms, pretend the game does not exist. Consider it dead. You don't have a right to buy every game ever developed under the terms and conditions of your choosing. It's unfair in the sense that me saying "No, I made this sandwich, and I'm not going to trade it to you for your pudding. You'll need to give me lunches for a week if you want this sandwich" is unfair. You're totally free to decline my unreasonable terms, and I'm likewise under no obligation to give you reasonable terms if I don't want to trade away my sandwich. It's a moronic decision that will lose them sales, but it's not unfair unless they hide these terms. This isn't cocaine here, or anything like that. It's not that big a deal if you don't have access to games under reasonable terms.



So, then if you want to boycott, you either sacrifice PC gaming as a whole, or you demonstrate.
PC gaming as a whole? Since when did Ubisoft have a monopoly on PC gaming?

This company (gog.com) even sells DRM free games.


Off-topic: I really can't understand the love out there for Steam. It's nice in some ways, but I've had a ton of trouble with Steam, either in installing games I own or launcing games that are already installed. It's been extremely frustrating, and Steam-based multiplayer has been extremely poor in a lot of my games. It's reached the point where I'm considering just not buying anything that requires it, ever. Not being allowed to play my games because your server isn't working does not make me happy :smallfurious:

Steam is DRM with good PR.

[Optimystik]

And I still suspect that doesn't beat £3.25 :smalltongue:

That depends on how long I take to play a given game. Since it's a flat monthly rate, the more games I beat and return in a month, the less each one will cost.

And even the longer ones like AC2 and ME2 are offset by the shorter ones like Bayonetta and Borderlands.

*shrug*


Even if it does, yes consoles games have benefits as do PC games, but they aren't as far reaching as you imply.

Besides this thread really doesn't want another platform debate.


Actually, I wasn't implying - you were inferring.


Incidently PC gaming might actually be recieving a second-hand market soon, it depends on how well this turns out. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/01/21/a-second-hand-market-for-download-games/)

That's not a bad idea, but I think we're a long way off from publishers lacking the... greed? paranoia?... to try it.

[Grumman]

This is frankly ridiculous. Would you be upset if they refuse to sell the game at all? How is selling it with unreasonable terms any different from not selling it at all?
If they didn't sell the game at all, there would be no danger of it setting a precedent for other games and other companies, that people don't care if you use obtrusive DRM. The goal of the boycott isn't just to make Ubisoft not use the DRM in this instance, but also to make sure the rest of the industry knows that obtrusive DRM is counterproductive to their goals.

[RS14]

If they didn't sell the game at all, there would be no danger of it setting a precedent for other games and other companies, that people don't care if you use obtrusive DRM. The goal of the boycott isn't just to make Ubisoft not use the DRM in this instance, but also to make sure the rest of the industry knows that obtrusive DRM is counterproductive to their goals.

I'll accept that. It's still fair for them to do so, though, so I still don't see why to be upset.

Furthermore, I still don't see why saying "your game is unacceptable as published, and I will not buy it" is inadequate as a message.

[Miklus]

Hmmmm....I have a wireless modem. It is mostly stable, but the download rate does fluctuate. I don't think this will work for me, so I'm with the boycott too. It would annoy the hell out of me if the game stopped from time to time.

[Grumman]

I'll accept that. It's still fair for them to do so, though, so I still don't see why to be upset.
Doing things that help nobody and hurt your customers is a **** move, that's why. And the more companies that think that obtrusive DRM is acceptable, the less games will be made that don't have the DRM.


Furthermore, I still don't see why saying "your game is unacceptable as published, and I will not buy it" is inadequate as a message.
Because the more their decision hurts them, the less likely they (or anyone else) are to repeat it.

[KBF]

Furthermore, I still don't see why saying "your game is unacceptable as published, and I will not buy it" is inadequate as a message.

Because, as stated, I am their demographic here. I'm a AC fan who ordinarily does not mind DRM, with a mostly steady internet connection. It's a working product. For me, at least. But I do not endorse their ditching of people in places that still use dial-up. It's a form of discrimination, if you will.

Also, FDM you're getting kind of crazy. I don't think French developers in general should be blamed for Ubisoft's mistakes and I don't think screaming infront of their offices is necessary. I'm just not going to give them my money when they deliver invasive game-stopping DRM with their games. Is that.. Wrong, somehow? Is the fact that I'm not doing more mean that I should just hand them my wallet?

[Ilena]

myself, i dont really buy pc games anymore, i got annoyed with all this crap about drms and whatnot, i mean requiring the cd to be in the drive,ok, cd key, ok, no big deal, but beyond that? ive had games glitch because of it saying theres no cd in the drive when plainly its in there, took those games back in a hurry, and sometimes i have my net pulled from my computer to my xbox, and if i wana play a game i dont want to have to put an internet connection into it to do so, i simply just wont buy those games even if they are good, their loss, not mine

[shadow_archmagi]

Off-topic: I really can't understand the love out there for Steam. It's nice in some ways, but I've had a ton of trouble with Steam, either in installing games I own or launcing games that are already installed. It's been extremely frustrating, and Steam-based multiplayer has been extremely poor in a lot of my games. It's reached the point where I'm considering just not buying anything that requires it, ever. Not being allowed to play my games because your server isn't working does not make me happy :smallfurious:

I sometimes get a "GAME NOT AVAILABLE" message, but then I click the game again and it launches fine. Steam-based multiplayer has always been extremely good in all the games I've played; TF2's server-finding system is excellent and I find most of the alternatives to be inferior.

I think your constant bad experiences are really awful luck.

[Vitruviansquid]

STEAM has been good to me as well, but I can't get over the fact that, some day, the server will shut down and I'll never be able to play my games again.

[chiasaur11]

STEAM has been good to me as well, but I can't get over the fact that, some day, the server will shut down and I'll never be able to play my games again.

Well, for what little it's worth, Valve did promise to patch out the need for Steam if they go under.

And Valve does generally try to do right by folks from all I've seen. Heck, when I sent an email to Gabe Newell about the commentary system, I got an email back.

[Kane]

Oh, come on, Ubisoft! I trusted you! I loved your PoP trilogy! Why would you do this?:smallfrown:

No Ubisoft games for my PC anymore...:smallsigh:

[Tavar]

{Scrubbed}

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, for what little it's worth, Valve did promise to patch out the need for Steam if they go under.

And Valve does generally try to do right by folks from all I've seen. Heck, when I sent an email to Gabe Newell about the commentary system, I got an email back.

Oh yeah! Back when there was the great idling scandal, most of my items had been obtained by idling (since I had it set to delete-lowest-level-duplicate) and so when Valve decided to purge the idle-gained weapons, I ended up without a lot of my unlocks. I was like "HEY WHAT IS THIS I HAVE NO FLARE GUN" and they were like "Whoops our bad we've made sure you have at least one of everything you have a milestone for"

[Lord Seth]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the purpose of boycotting an entire company because you hate what they did to one game? Wouldn't it make more sense to, uh, just not buy that particular game? And if they do this to other games, then don't buy those games also. It just seems odd to me to decide "This company horribly messed up this one particular game, so I'm not going to buy any other games from them!"

[warty goblin]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the purpose of boycotting an entire company because you hate what they did to one game? Wouldn't it make more sense to, uh, just not buy that particular game? And if they do this to other games, then don't buy those games also. It just seems odd to me to decide "This company horribly messed up this one particular game, so I'm not going to buy any other games from them!"

If it was what they were doing to one game, I'd completely agree with you. However this is their standing policy for all upcoming PC releases, which is an entirely different ballgame.

[KBF]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the purpose of boycotting an entire company because you hate what they did to one game? Wouldn't it make more sense to, uh, just not buy that particular game? And if they do this to other games, then don't buy those games also. It just seems odd to me to decide "This company horribly messed up this one particular game, so I'm not going to buy any other games from them!"

Even if what Warty said wasn't true (which it is) it's all in the interest of making the fact that people are boycotting as noticeable as possible.

[Inhuman Bot]

Is it just me, or does this thread use "retarded" more often then the rest of this forum combined?

[Mercenary Pen]

Well, I don't do much PC gaming, and my primary console is a Nintendo DS but, I really doubt I'll be buying anything from Ubisoft in the foreseeable future (admittedly, most of the games I buy are Nintendo, Konami and Capcom releases...)

I agree that, if you don't like the measures being used in their games, you shouldn't buy them but, if you feel there's more to protesting than that, you could always try hunting down their official website and sending complaint e-mails to their customer services people (I assume they'll have some sort of public e-mail contact) because- combined with losing money through sales- having complaint e-mails about a game not yet released could actually get your message across.

[Gourtox]

All I have to say is look at what I found here (http://www.defectivebydesign.org/). Seems pretty similar. It's unny where looking at GIMP will take you.

[Mikeavelli]

I'm not sure whether it was an intended DRM thing or not, but this sort of DRM is already in place for a few Steam games.

I picked up the two Freedom Force games a few months ago, and they crash whenever my internet connection goes down.

Fortunately, it's not often enough to be an issue, but it's irritating nontheless.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Why the hell do people pirate games anyway? If you like a game, then it's only fair to make sure the company gets paid for it so they can keep making good games. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with spending approximately $40 now for a game you'll enjoy, and an assurance that the company will continue making good games?

[KBF]

Why the hell do people pirate games anyway? If you like a game, then it's only fair to make sure the company gets paid for it so they can keep making good games. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with spending approximately $40 now for a game you'll enjoy, and an assurance that the company will continue making good games?

Most pirates are in high school or college, where solid income is rare.

[13_CBS]

Why the hell do people pirate games anyway? If you like a game, then it's only fair to make sure the company gets paid for it so they can keep making good games. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with spending approximately $40 now for a game you'll enjoy, and an assurance that the company will continue making good games?


1) It's free (basically). Free, free, free, free, free.

2) Plenty of people take the short term view, and simply pirate because they don't particularly care about the company making the game.

3) Some people see it as an act of defiance against what they perceive to be corrupt corporations.

4) Some people think that piracy doesn't make too terrible of an impact on a company's game sales.


Or, any combination of the above.

[warty goblin]

I'm not sure whether it was an intended DRM thing or not, but this sort of DRM is already in place for a few Steam games.

I picked up the two Freedom Force games a few months ago, and they crash whenever my internet connection goes down.

Fortunately, it's not often enough to be an issue, but it's irritating nontheless.

I'm not sure that's proof of DRM, particularly since my google-fu is failing to turn up any particular references to FF needing to be online to play. I'm pretty sure that would be mentioned somewhere if it was.

Remember folks, computers are ridiculously complex things, and sometimes when things break DRM is not to blame. Sometimes things are just weird. My old computer for instance would refuse to even launch Star Wars Battlefront 2 if it was connected to the internet, a problem that disappeared when I installed it on a new machine.

[warty goblin]

Most pirates are in high school or college, where solid income is rare.

As one of the poor college students, I can say that I manage to purchase loads of games. Of course I do so intelligently, and wait for sales, or buy older titles. Just yesterday I grabbed both Shadowgrounds games off of Steam for about $5, and am having an absolutel blast with them.

Actually the real issue with all these cheap older/niche titles is that I simply do not have the motivation to buy the mainstream ones anymore. Sure I could hack up $50 for Mass Effect 2, or I could buy between five and ten other games...next up, how gog.com is killing PC gaming.

[Zeful]

1) It's free (basically). Free, free, free, free, free.

2) Plenty of people take the short term view, and simply pirate because they don't particularly care about the company making the game.

3) Some people see it as an act of defiance against what they perceive to be corrupt corporations.

4) Some people think that piracy doesn't make too terrible of an impact on a company's game sales.


Or, any combination of the above.

So what you're saying is that pirates are Greedy, Selfish, small minded, and stupid.


Most pirates are in high school or college, where solid income is rare.Tough, buy less games. Borrow games from friends, RENT THEM.

[Nano]

Neither of those folks claimed to pirate or advocate it, Zeful. You sound like you're accusing them.

As far as boycotting goes, well... If the first game to enact the new DRM policy there is a colossal failure, well, it sends a pretty clear message. Unfortunately I don't think the decision to boycott will be quite as unanimous as it need be for that.

[Douglas]

Tough, buy less games. Borrow games from friends, RENT THEM.
Ah, but piracy is so easy. No really, getting a pirate copy is usually both faster and easier than getting a legitimate one, and information on how to find and acquire one is hardly scarce in a typical college student body. Faced with such ease on top of the free price and the low income, it can be hard to resist the temptation.

Oh, and that "borrow from friends" thing? That's part of what a lot of DRM is specifically designed to prevent.

I am fully aware none of this excuses piracy, but it does explain a lot of it.

[Boci]

Ah, but piracy is so easy. No really, getting a pirate copy is usually both faster and easier than getting a legitimate one, and information on how to find and acquire one is hardly scarce in a typical college student body. Faced with such ease on top of the free price and the low income, it can be hard to resist the temptation.

Oh, and that "borrow from friends" thing? That's part of what a lot of DRM is specifically designed to prevent.

I am fully aware none of this excuses piracy, but it does explain a lot of it.

Still not worth it to me, based on that fact that I know a copy I buy won't actually be (or contain) a virus or other maleware. The chance may be small for a pirated game, but my laptop cost a lot, and since I am on low income, if I cannot afford a game, I certainly cannot afford to replace my computer.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This veered real world politics. Don't do that.