If OOTS upgraded to Pathfinder [humor]

[yanmaodao]

Well, not ha-ha humor. More like, "interesting to ponder" humor. I know OOTS will likely never upgrade editions again. Too many of the recurring jokes and such are planted firmly in 3.5e concepts.

But I'd actually like it if Rich found a way to shoehorn some Pathfinder concepts into OOTS, because it would mesh well with the OOTS-verse. The basic fighting classes especially have enjoyed a power creep, which is good for a campaign where the main protagonist is a single class fighter. All the base classes have been boosted a bit as well, though, and the "everyone receives a new class feature every level (i.e. no more dead levels" favors single-classing in a traditional base class over elaborate cheese builds. Or at least, makes it less disadvantageous than in traditional 3.5e, where everyone except Clerics, Druids, and Wizards had to take goofy sounding non-core classes like "Warblade" just in order to be effective.

Anyways. Here's how I'd think each main OOTS character would be affected.

Roy: Still no real uses for his high mental scores. A bonus to Will saves with Bravery, more feats, and Weapon Training gives him a +3 to his attack roll and damage, assuming he's at least 13th level but below 17th. That's always nice to have. For all of Roy's high stats, we've never received any indication his DEX is any good, however, so I don't he'll benefit that much from Armor Training.

It's hard to say where he'd put that +2 bonus for being Human, because so many of his stats are decent. Probably just STR, though INT, WIS, and CHR are also possibilities.

Haley: Will probably welcome the change the most out of anyone in the Order. Her archer-rogue build will benefit greatly from all those extra feats. d8 Hit Dice makes her much tougher. Minor Talent is a neat perk to have, though I don't know, from what we've seen, which one she'd have taken. Hell, I don't know what 3.5e Rogue Special Abilities she has, actually. In keeping with her mistrusting nature, Slippery Mind might fit, story-wise. And maybe Skill Mastery in Appraisal? I can see Haley stopping in the middle of combat to take 10 admiring some shiny gold baubles.

Anyways. MOST importantly, however, Sneak Attack remains useful much longer in Pathfinder than in 3.5e. Even the mook's little brother's dog is immune to Sneak Attack and Critical Hits after about 10th level in 3.5e, whereas Pathfinder is much stricter on what it means to have a "discernible" anatomy. I think, the general direction they went is, if you <i>have</i> an anatomy, it's discernible. So oozes and constructs, still immune. Most Outsiders, and even some Undead, no.

Her new +2 to any ability score? More DEX, please.

Belkar: Probably benefits the least. The Ranger has been taken into more of a "cunning striker" role, with its Quarry ability and greater emphasis on Tracking. Not sure what he'd take for his Favored Terrain, unless "Battlefield" counts as a terrain. His couple of levels of Barbarian just to get Rage means comparatively less, since Rage Powers are a big part of the Barbarian build now, and you need more levels in straight Barbarian. Still, assuming he has at least 2 levels in Barbarian, either No Escape or Quick Reflexes seems to work with what we've seen of his fighting style in-comic.

Halflings get +2 to CHR now, which for him isn't a useful stat. If OOTS used a point-buy system, he'd probably use it to pump up stats he'd actually care about. If OOTS didn't, well... like I said, probably benefits the least.

Durkon: The new "Positive Energy channeling" that has replaced Turn Undead is probably one of my least favorite aspects of Pathfinder, so I'll just ignore it. Other than that, Clerics essentially remain the same, aside from receiving more feats like everyone does.

But Dwarves get +2 to WIS now! That ought to make him happy.

Vaarsuvius: For story reasons, V should still be barred from casting "Teleport" entirely, not merely with the penalty prescribed in Pathfinder. As an Evoker, he gains some free blasting abilities, which I'm sure V'll appreciate. Force Missile allows V to use Magic Missile pretty much like a 4e "At Will" ability, Intense Spells adds more damage dice to the blasting spells V loves so much, and V also gains a free Wall of Fire, for some reason.

We know V has a familiar and that can't be taken out, but if we were to start over, V would totally be the type of wizard who chooses to bond with a magic object over a familiar. Though, the ability of Rangers/Paladins/Druids/Wizards to swap in their creature companions for other abilities is another of the few things I don't like about the Pathfinder update. Rangers have hunting dogs, Paladins have steeds, Wizards have talking imps or black cats, and that's just the way it is, dammit.

Also, +2 to INT and all caster level checks against SR. Maybe V could have taken out that huecuva, after all.

Elan: Everything about Bards has been improved. Their songs, their spellcasting (by a bit), their hit dice... actually, Elan might want Pathfinder more than Haley does. Way back from earlier, it was also mentioned that Elan took cross-class skills, which are penalized much less now.

As a Pathfinder Human, he'd probably have choose CHR to have that +2 bonus in.

Xykon: I love what they've done with the Sorcerer in Pathfinder. Took the whole "dragon bloodline" from a backstory handwave to differentiate it from the Wizard, and turned it into an actual gameplay mechanic. Except instead of dragons, Xykon would obviously have the Undead power source. (Even if he's not actually descended from Undead, it fits too well thematically.) This gives him some SLA's that are useless for a guy his level, and a touch attack that's worse than what he gets for being a lich.

More importantly, it may allow him to know more spells, since many of his signature abilities, like Energy Drain and Animate Dead, he'd get for free anyway. He'd also be able to treat undead like humanoids for the purposes of enchantment spells, but we've seen no indication he knows any of them.

Yeah, I had a bit of extra time. Thoughts?

[Milandros]

A reasonable analysis, and it would be a far easier "upgrade" than converting to 4e would be.

I have to say, I really quite like Pathfinder - for those who don't know it, it's basically V3.75, a tidied up and improved version of the OGL 3.5. It's not perfect, but most of the flaws fall into the "not to my taste" catergory (which I think your minor complaints with it seem to be) or into the "no perfect option" category, like grappling rules. They're better, simpler and still not realistic.

The classes are more interesting and have more options, things like polymorph are greatly improved and in my opinion it's an all-round success. I've read the 4e books, though haven't had a chance to play it yet, and like many older-style gamers I still have some reservations about it (I could see the UI in front of me, complete with the same number of quickslots for each class, and too many abilities seem to turn into "as I strike, a ray of light springs from my weapon to [target] and pushes him back 5 feet/heals his damage if he wants to use one of his healing surges/gives him a +1 to hit/allows him to take a 5' step/insert other effect not immediately obviously linked to me hitting someone ten or fifteen feet away"). Pathfinder, on the other hand, tempts me quite a lot to play.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Vaarsuvius: For story reasons, V should still be barred from casting "Teleport" entirely, not merely with the penalty prescribed in Pathfinder. As an Evoker, he gains some free blasting abilities, which I'm sure V'll appreciate. Force Missile allows V to use Magic Missile pretty much like a 4e "At Will" ability, Intense Spells adds more damage dice to the blasting spells V loves so much, and V also gains a free Wall of Fire, for some reason.

He? You mean she. :smallannoyed:

[The Rose Dragon]

He? You mean she. :smallannoyed:

"He" is the grammatically correct pronoun here, as Vaarsuvius' sex is not known.

[Nimrod's Son]

He? You mean she. :smallannoyed:
:smallsigh: Unless you intend to repost this response on every page of every thread in this forum from now until forever, I suggest you get used to people referring to Vaarsuvius as "he", and soon.

[iwarriorpoet]

I just pray a 4e transition never comes. I HATE 4e.

[Touchy]

I just pray a 4e transition never comes. I HATE 4e.

You can pray all you want, but it doesn't change that fact Rich doesn't like it much either, and is not switching to it. The story is too far into the system to radically change systems, besides, 4e is still meshing out classes, suddenly what if they release a ranged rogue build, that would surely piss of Haley. I do know you said you hate 4e, just so you don't have to point that out.

[Shale]

I just pray a 4e transition never comes. I HATE 4e.

You mean the 4e transition that Rich specifically said he'd never do? Yeah, that'll take constant vigilance.

[djeternaldarkness]

I think that pretty much nailed it all on the head there. I think that Pathfinder would be a much better fit for these guys...:)

Of course I'm another one of those "I've been playing D&D since most of you guys were thoughts in your parents pants" who really was not impressed by 4E.

[iwarriorpoet]

I know he has said that he would not make the transition---but I have to wonder what will happen 2-3 years from now when the pool of people who know/enjoy 3.5 is dwindling...

Since a lot of the humor from the comic is derived from D+D rules...

I have heard that he will slowly deemphasize the rules in his humor, but I wonder...

My personal hope is to jump to 5.0 (hoping that they will launch a GOOD comprehensive digital aide with that release).

[Souhiro]

Well, I usually call Pathfinder "The Well Done D&D 3.0/3.5" since most of characters want to be fighters, clerics, rogues... and you REALLY don't launch yourself to multiclass.

I like one of the premises: Instead of giving penalties to multiclasess, they give bonus to Pure-Broods: The poor sorcerer at 3.5 just was waiting his chance to multiclass to incantatrix and put his levels to good use. Now, the sorcerer, the cleric, the ranger... all of them WANTS to stick to their classes, and not get a level of many classes. (Seriously, taking a level, in real life, would mean dedicating PROFESIONALLY to something, quiting your main job, at least for a bit, and try at something else from the bottom.

[Deliverance]

I know he has said that he would not make the transition---but I have to wonder what will happen 2-3 years from now when the pool of people who know/enjoy 3.5 is dwindling...
Hopefully the OOTS will have ended by then and Rich will have started on a new project.

There is such a thing as drawing a good story out too long and the OOTS is begging for a resolution rather than a new bunch of sidequests and seeing yet another gate fail to be defended but destroyed/made unavailable to Xykon somehow in the process leading to a new quest for Serini's/Kraagor's gate for "the order vs. Xykon at a gate, take 4, last one, honestly, we've run out of gates".

Girard's gate is the third time the OOTS and Xykon clash at a gate and it would be entirely appropriate to resolve the story then and there.

[talkamancer]

I know he has said that he would not make the transition---but I have to wonder what will happen 2-3 years from now when the pool of people who know/enjoy 3.5 is dwindling...

Since a lot of the humor from the comic is derived from D+D rules...



I've not played DnD since ADnD which i believe you guys call V1.0 and i still laugh at the rules based humour. The detail of the rules may have changed but the drive of them must not and at heart it still remains the same game.

[hamishspence]

Girard's gate is the third time the OOTS and Xykon clash at a gate and it would be entirely appropriate to resolve the story then and there.

According to DStP- the story reached its halfway point in that book.

Which implies that there will probably be at least two more.

If it reached it at the beginning of DStP- it will probably be two more.

If it reached it at the end of DStP- it may be as many as 3 more.

[Eric O'Really]

i would rather see the oots group upgraded to 4e. since the release of the players handbook 2, every class (combination in regard to belkar^^) and race of the main characters are available again. so i can see its possible.

also i just would like to see what would happen, if elan is casting a spell and makes it look like roy cast it. this would be a whole new level of irritating the group with his powers :smallbiggrin:

[yanmaodao]

The main thing I don't like about 4e is what they've done to my two favorite classes, Ranger and Rogue [<-- see avatar <--]. The Ranger, it seems, is defined primarily by fighting style now (archery or dual wielding), and much of the wilderness connection de-emphasized. And the Rogue has lost a lot of its Thief-like aspect (I remember when Rogues were actually called Thieves) in favor of being a generic "Infiltrator" type class. Correct me if this is off base - I have no dog in this hunt and will be pleased to know if 4e is better than I'm giving it credit for.


Well, I usually call Pathfinder "The Well Done D&D 3.0/3.5" since most of characters want to be fighters, clerics, rogues... and you REALLY don't launch yourself to multiclass.

Same here. The day when Dervishes and Arcane Swordblades of Zikxyrgds started overshadowing Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Barbarians was when I felt something intangible had been lost.

PS I meant to use "V" as the pronoun for Vaarsuvius. That was a slipup.

[AceOfFools]

The exact quote for DStP was: "...by the time you finish reading this, you will have passed the halfway point in the story...There will be less compilation books now than have previously been published."
This implies to me that there will be 7 books worth of online material in total.

[hamishspence]

Remember that the first two books (Dungeon Crawling Fools, Paladin Blues) are quite a bit thinner than War & XPs, and DStP.

So it's possible for there to be three books before DStP, only two books after, and yet for there to be as many strips after the DStP ones, as there were before them.

With DStP beginning just before, and ending just after, the middle of the story.

I'd say there might be seven- but there might be six, instead.

Either way, I doubt that this book is the last book, I expect there to be at least one more after the one with Gobbotopia's founding- a minimum of six books-worth of online strips in total.

[0datdude0]

Humm if they upgraded I think belkars favored terrain could be taverns and bars. With of course a comic about him tricking people inside on so he can get bonuses to kill them.

[Skeppio]

I just got the most horrible thought in my head. What if Order of the Stick converted to...
...
...
...
F.A.T.A.L.!!!

I'd imagine it to be OOTS if every PC was Belkar. Truly a terrifying thought.

[Besyanteo]

I just got the most horrible thought in my head. What if Order of the Stick converted to...
...
...
...
F.A.T.A.L.!!!

I'd imagine it to be OOTS if every PC was Belkar. Truly a terrifying thought.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it would be more like Haley disappears, V becomes male or follows suit, and all the others make a decision between killing themselves or begin their epic quest to find women and do bad things to them. Largely because this is all that system is about. Belkar is, by comparison to the average FATALite, and upstanding gentleman of supreme refinement and great bearing. Not to mention honor and intelligence and... well, the list goes on. Belkar at his worst is better.

MOVING RIGHT ALONG: If OotS upgraded to Pathfinder, I fear for the next person that tangled with Tsukiko. Both Sorceror and Mystic Theurge got major overhauls, making them much more effective class choices. Even if her levels are Wizard rather than Sorceror, I think it's safe to say she's a Necromancer and that's a more valid build decision in PF as well. Watch your back, PF Haley. :smalleek:

[Skeppio]

Belkar is, by comparison to the average FATALite, and upstanding gentleman of supreme refinement and great bearing. Not to mention honor and intelligence and... well, the list goes on. Belkar at his worst is better.

Funny, I always pictured Belkar as the perfect FATALite, except he's more on the murderous sociopath end of the spectrum of amorality and absurd game mechanics than the wretched molester end.

Back on topic, I don't actually know enough about Pathfinder to post anything of actual value or relevance to this thread. I think I'll shut up now....

[Knaight]

I would question the claim that Melee is boosted, but there are some serious mechanical differences. Stabilization being one, although that would be more of a Goblins thing than an Oots thing.

Pathfinder Summary 2. A cleaned up system with a near universal boost, with casters even further ahead than they used to be. However, there are quite a few small tweaks, some of which is brilliant. CMB and CMD for instance, although they are a bit too simplified. Stabilization is another, and the TWF is handled better. Feats are downgraded in power considerably, and class matters a lot more now, plus classes are end loaded enough to discourage multiclassing.

[Snake-Aes]

The favored class system also encourages you to stick to one class. The consolidation in the skill system leaded my group's monk to suddenly find out he was an amazing singer all his life. Now that we have both a singing monk, a bard with plenty usages of Ghost Sound and a dervish half-orc, every time we engage into a big fight we imagine it is being fought at the sound of Can't Touch This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c4L4CPfQY8).

That said, I wonder if and when Roy would bother getting heavier armor, since by his level he can already wear heavy as well as medium.

[yanmaodao]

Tsukiko is a Wizard, not a Sorcerer, because of her ability to use Quicken Spell.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Tsukiko is a Wizard, not a Sorcerer, because of her ability to use Quicken Spell.

When did Tsukiko Use Quicken spell?:smallconfused:

[Shale]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html). She casts Quickened Lesser Acid Orb against Haley.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html). She casts Quickened Lesser Acid Orb against Haley.

Thanks!!!!!

[Eric O'Really]

The main thing I don't like about 4e is what they've done to my two favorite classes, Ranger and Rogue [<-- see avatar <--]. The Ranger, it seems, is defined primarily by fighting style now (archery or dual wielding), and much of the wilderness connection de-emphasized. And the Rogue has lost a lot of its Thief-like aspect (I remember when Rogues were actually called Thieves) in favor of being a generic "Infiltrator" type class. Correct me if this is off base - I have no dog in this hunt and will be pleased to know if 4e is better than I'm giving it credit for.


ootch. srry pal you couldnt be more wrong. really!

first:

as for the ranger. training in nature and ritual casting, maybe add multiclassing ino one of the primal classes (like druid) and you get your old nature connected ranger back. take a beast master and you have the same style as your old 3.5 ranger.
anyway, wasnt the old 3.5 ranger defined by his fighting styles? you got to choose between two weapon fighting and archery, which made up your feat selection and therefore the fighting style you where stuck with. and its not, that in 4e you couldnt play a hybrid melee/ranged ranger, by adjusting his stats accordingly.

second:

as for the rogue. how dont they feel like thieves anymore? they have default training in stealth and thievery. believe me. i played a 3.5 rogue and im currently playing a 4e rogue and you can play them as thieves as much as you want. this is still a roleplaying game, how your character feels is decided by you and the way, youre playing him. i also played in different systems outside dnd and i always made the experience, that how the game feels doesnt even have to do much with the system, but more with the group and what the player is making of his character.

you can create nearly any character you want with what the system already offers. and the rest can be solved by reflavouring. for example, the 4e mechanics doesnt (yet) allow a rogue to make sneak attacks with shortbows, like haley does. but he can with crossbows. so if you want to play a rogue like haley, you can yust take the mechanics from one of the crossbows and say, its a shortbow.

[Asta Kask]

Thanks!!!!!

She also says she prepared spells with a hit roll in that arc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

She also says she prepared spells with a hit roll in that arc.

I wasn't debating wheater she was a wizard or a sorcerer, but if she had quicken spell, but thanks anyway.... but that put me thinking... quickened lesser orb of acid is a 5th level spell right?.. that means she has at least 9th wizard spell casting, considering she is a mysthic theurge... that puts her on ECL of at least 15 or so?... need to check the Geekery thread.....

Sorry for my rambling..... and thanks anyway.

[Asta Kask]

I wasn't debating wheater she was a wizard or a sorcerer, but if she had quicken spell, but thanks anyway.... but that put me thinking... quickened lesser orb of acid is a 5th level spell right?.. that means she has at least 9th wizard spell casting, considering she is a mysthic theurge... that puts her on ECL of at least 15 or so?... need to check the Geekery thread.....

Sorry for my rambling..... and thanks anyway.

I think the lesser orbs are third level, but IDHMBWM.

[Snake-Aes]

Sorcerers can't use Quicken Spell normally, since all metamagic feats extend the cast time from 1 standard action to 1 full-round action. Before epic levels, the only alternative to it is Spontaneous Quicken Spell, which is like Quicken, but only usable 3 times per day, and works for sorcerers(and doesn't require preparation for wizards).

[hamishspence]

There is also Arcane Preparation- allowing sorcerers to prepare spells ahead of time, like wizards.

[Snake-Aes]

There is also Arcane Preparation- allowing sorcerers to prepare spells ahead of time, like wizards.

True, but both are as good explanations any, except they dwell into noncore stuff, which isn't used often.

[hamishspence]

Arcane Preparation appears in Tome & Blood though- which, given Tsukiko's reference to her Orb spells as evocations, is the likely source for them.

All other sources with Orb spells, have them as conjurations.

While a source being used once don't mean other content from that source will be used, I do think it makes such content slightly more plausible.

[Leolo]

The main thing I don't like about 4e is what they've done to my two favorite classes, Ranger and Rogue [<-- see avatar <--]. The Ranger, it seems, is defined primarily by fighting style now (archery or dual wielding), and much of the wilderness connection de-emphasized.

At least this point could be discussed. Rangers can have an animal compagnion (and do special tactics with it) and they have a wide array of rituals with the nature skill. With many divination spells gone there is also more use for finding tracks. So it is not that hard to create a very nature bound ranger.

Thieves are a different theme. The main question is what do you want from them.

A pathfinder conversion would be cool, because it gaves many great opportunities for new rules based gags. Just imagine if Roy says to V:


Polymorph me! Polymorph me into something stronger! Polymorph me into a human!

^^

[Milandros]

I think the lesser orbs are third level, but IDHMBWM.

It's a first level spell. Quicken takes it to using a 5th level slot.

[Asta Kask]

However, in Pathfinder spontane casters can use Quicken without increasing their casting time. That's an exception to the rules of metamagic for sorcerers.