PDA

View Full Version : Killer Gnome, now with additional shenanigans! [3.5 TO]



magic9mushroom
2010-02-18, 07:12 AM
Here's a little bit of craziness dreamed up by KellKheraptis and me.

Classes:

Illusionist 3/Master Illusionist 1/Tainted Scholar 2/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Shadow Adept 1.

1: Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution Level
2: Illusionist
3: Illusionist
4: Master Specialist
5: Tainted Scholar
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Incantatrix
8: Shadowcraft Mage
9: Shadowcraft Mage
10: Shadowcraft Mage
11: Incantatrix
12: Incantatrix
13: Incantatrix
14: Incantatrix
15: Incantatrix
16: Incantatrix
17: Incantatrix
18: Incantatrix
19: Incantatrix
20: Shadow Adept

Feats:
1: Favored (to be Chaos Shuffled after the first level of Tainted Scholar is taken)
Flaw: Heighten Spell
Flaw: Arcane Disciple (Luck)
1 (Wizard): Scribe Scroll (can be Chaos Shuffled)
Taint: Spell Focus (Illusion)
Taint: Iron Will
Taint: Earth Sense
Taint: Primary Contact (to be Chaos Shuffled after the first level of Tainted Scholar is taken)
3: Earth Spell
4 (Master Specialist): Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (to be Chaos Shuffled)
6: Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)
7 (Incantatrix): Easy Metamagic (Heighten Spell)
9: Residual Magic
12: FREE!
13 (Incantatrix): Sanctum Spell
15: FREE!
16 (Incantatrix): Free (metamagic only)
18: Shadow Weave Magic
19 (Incantatrix): Free (metamagic only)
20 (Shadow Adept): Insidious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)
20 (Shadow Adept): Pernicious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)
20 (Shadow Adept): Tenacious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)

Suggested to use the free and Chaos Shufflable feats for metamagic feats.



Abilities of note:

Tainted Spellcasting: You can triple or quadruple your spell load. Also, your save DCs are near-unbeatable.

Shadow Illusion: Thanks to Earth Spell, Easy Metamagic (Heighten) and Improved Metamagic, you can mimic any 9th level or lower evocation, conjuration (creation) or conjuration (summoning) spell from a slot 2 levels lower than the spell you want to mimic (as a Heightened Silent Image). By mimicing Miracle (out of a 7th level slot) you can mimic ANY 7th level or lower spell, and any 8th level or lower cleric spell. Your caster level is boosted by (X+2) when you are mimicing an Xth level spell (Earth Spell and Arcane Thesis). By use of Sanctum Heightened Silent Images, you can create spells that are effectively 11th level, enabling you to mimic all epic evocation, conjuration (creation) and conjuration (summoning) spells with 7th level slots while you are in your sanctum.

Residual Magic: On the round after casting a Heightened Silent Image, you can apply the Heighten Spell to a normal Silent Image for free. This can be used either to mimic high level spells out of a very low-level slot, or to add metamagic to spells which otherwise would be of too high a level (all metamagic you apply is reduced in level adjustment by 2 thanks to Improved Metamagic and Arcane Thesis). An example: After using a 7th level slot to cast a Silent Image Heightened to 9th level (10th level with Earth Spell) and mimicing a 9th level spell, you may cast an Empowered (+0), Maximised (+1), Enervated (+0), Repeated (+1), Energy Admixtured (+2), Twinned (+2), Searing (+0) Silent Image that is Heightened to 9th (10th with Earth Spell) level for free, and use this to mimic an Empowered Maximised Enervated Repeated Energy Admixtured Twinned Searing Meteor Swarm - from a 6th level slot.

10th level Incantatrix abilities: You're slightly worse at these than a normal Incantatrix, because your casting stats are Con and Wis rather than Int. But they're all still there as usual.

3rd level Shadowcraft Mage abilities: You have Cloak of Shadow and Silent Illusion, both of which are quite powerful. If you take the Still Spell feat, it's free for Silent Image thanks to Arcane Thesis, thus making it more difficult to prevent you from casting.



Reasonably powerful, wouldn't you say? Miracles almost at-will, ability to mimic all spell lists, ridiculous spells per day, stupendous save DCs, ability to apply stupendous amounts of metamagic onto spells which ordinarily cannot have any, and (some) epic spells pre-epic - with no researching and (debatably) no Spellcraft check.

Optimystik
2010-02-18, 07:17 AM
Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant :smallfrown:

Keld Denar
2010-02-18, 07:23 AM
Le sigh....the shadow Miracle part doesn't work for reasons I've already posted in several threads. There is a difference between YOUR spell list, and THE Wiz/Sorc spell list. Shadow Illusion explicitly calls out the latter, not the former.

The rest of it works just fine, although messing with Tainted Casting is rediculously rediculous...

EDIT:
And I see no Enhanced Shadow Reality. If you are already reality-capped, this is an extra +20% effect of whatever you cast. Its like a mini empower tacked on all of your spells, making them even MORE real than reality.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-18, 07:27 AM
Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant :smallfrown:

Heh, yeah. I like that class. I think it has something to do with the fact that I found it and realised its power myself before hearing about its power on the Internet. Really, Tainted Spellcasting should have been the capstone of the class, and it should have lost a couple of caster levels. That would have made it powerful (Tainted Spellcasting is one of those things that IS worth a caster level loss) without making it the stupidly overpowered PrC it is.


Le sigh....the shadow Miracle part doesn't work for reasons I've already posted in several threads. There is a difference between YOUR spell list, and THE Wiz/Sorc spell list. Shadow Illusion explicitly calls out the latter, not the former.

Shadow Illusion says "any sorcerer or wizard... spell". For you, it is a sorcerer or wizard spell - otherwise, you couldn't have the ability to cast it, could you?


The rest of it works just fine, although messing with Tainted Casting is rediculously rediculous...

It is.


EDIT:
And I see no Enhanced Shadow Reality. If you are already reality-capped, this is an extra +20% effect of whatever you cast. Its like a mini empower tacked on all of your spells, making them even MORE real than reality.

Because noone will ever make the save to disbelieve (unless they roll nat 20), how real they are is irrelevant. So it's not all that useful. I did consider it, though.

Keld Denar
2010-02-18, 08:07 AM
Shadow Illusion says "any sorcerer or wizard... spell". For you, it is a sorcerer or wizard spell - otherwise, you couldn't have the ability to cast it, could you?

Incorrect. Just because you are a wizard and can cast a spell, doesn't mean its a wizard spell. Its just a spell you can cast from another spell list. Thats what it says, why add in meaning that isn't there? It says wiz/sorc spell, and that means spells that say Wiz/Sorc in their description, right under school and right before the spell level. Miracle says Cleric9/Luck9, thus, it isn't a wiz/sorc spell even if you are a wizard and can cast it. You can't mimic it with shadow illusion.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 08:18 AM
Random minor thought. You don't need Iron Will till 7 for incantatrix right? Use Otoyough Hole for it, freeing up a feat slot.

Probably not at all necessary, but hey, why not? If you do need it earlier...retrain I guess.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-18, 08:24 AM
Incorrect. Just because you are a wizard and can cast a spell, doesn't mean its a wizard spell. Its just a spell you can cast from another spell list. Thats what it says, why add in meaning that isn't there? It says wiz/sorc spell, and that means spells that say Wiz/Sorc in their description, right under school and right before the spell level. Miracle says Cleric9/Luck9, thus, it isn't a wiz/sorc spell even if you are a wizard and can cast it. You can't mimic it with shadow illusion.


ARCANE DISCIPLE [GENERAL]
Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics
of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with
that domain as arcane spells.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft
4 ranks, able to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your
deity’s alignment.
Benefi t: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list
of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from
more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting
ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision
cannot be changed for that feat.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however,
you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for
your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the
spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to
10 + the spell’s level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained
from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without
preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells
of each level.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each
time, you must select a different domain available to the
same deity you chose the fi rst time you selected the feat.
For example, a character who chose Heironeous and the
Good domain with his fi rst selection could choose Law or
War with successive selections of the same feat. He couldn’t
choose Protection, since that domain isn’t available to
clerics of Heironeous.

Emphasis mine. They are added to your arcane spell list, that is, your Wizard spell list. For you, the Wizard spell list contains those extra nine spells - hence, since a spell on the Wizard spell list is a wizard spell, they are wizard spells and count for Shadow Illusion.

@Tyndmyr: Indeed, why not.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-18, 09:54 PM
Also, if you really wanted to pull out ALL the stops, try the following. It requires party wealth pooling (you can easily pay them back later, so no worries) and the non-racist adaptation of ScM.

1: Binder
2: Beholder Mage
3: Metaphysical Spellshaper
4: Metaphysical Spellshaper
5: Metaphysical Spellshaper
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Tainted Scholar
8: Shadowcraft Mage
9: Shadowcraft Mage
10: Shadowcraft Mage
11: Incantatrix
12: Incantatrix
13: Incantatrix
14: Incantatrix
15: Incantatrix
16: Incantatrix
17: Incantatrix
18: Incantatrix
19: Incantatrix
20: Incantatrix

Hint: Bind Naberius.

...I feel dirty.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-18, 11:42 PM
1: Binder
2: Beholder Mage
3: Metaphysical Spellshaper
4: Metaphysical Spellshaper
5: Metaphysical Spellshaper

What flavor of cheese are you using for early entry into Metaphysical Spellshaper?


Hint: Bind Naberius.

This? This is just evil. :smallamused:


...I feel dirty.

You should. Shame on you. :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 12:03 AM
I notice a distinct lack of Echo Spell (Secrets of Sarlona)...

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 12:14 AM
What flavor of cheese are you using for early entry into Metaphysical Spellshaper?

Well, Binder gives Craft as a class skill, and we were already getting Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell for the pre-epic epic spells, so 0th level spell heightened to 1st (2nd with Earth Spell) gets 3rded with Sanctum Spell.


This? This is just evil. :smallamused:

Well yeah, you're binding your soul to weird extraplanar entities and channeling the supernatural powers of shadow and horror. You ARE evil. :smallbiggrin:


You should. Shame on you. :smalltongue:

Indeed.

Also, if you wanted you could swap out the Incantatrix levels for Anima Mage, Ur-Priest, or anything else. You got 9th level spells at level 10.

What's Echo Spell (Secrets of Sarlona) btw?

Draz74
2010-02-19, 12:33 AM
Random minor thought. You don't need Iron Will till 7 for incantatrix right? Use Otoyough Hole for it, freeing up a feat slot.

Really, it's hard to come up with any TO build that shouldn't use Otyugh Hole. Though of course it's extra-clear with Incantatrixes.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 12:52 AM
Well, Binder gives Craft as a class skill, and we were already getting Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell for the pre-epic epic spells, so 0th level spell heightened to 1st (2nd with Earth Spell) gets 3rded with Sanctum Spell.



Well yeah, you're binding your soul to weird extraplanar entities and channeling the supernatural powers of shadow and horror. You ARE evil. :smallbiggrin:



Indeed.

Also, if you wanted you could swap out the Incantatrix levels for Anima Mage, Ur-Priest, or anything else. You got 9th level spells at level 10.

What's Echo Spell (Secrets of Sarlona) btw?

+3 Metamagic feat that can give you NI spells/day.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 01:38 AM
+3 Metamagic feat that can give you NI spells/day.

What are you talking about? I checked Secrets of Sarlona and couldn't find any such feat.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-19, 01:50 AM
Well, Binder gives Craft as a class skill, and we were already getting Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell for the pre-epic epic spells, so 0th level spell heightened to 1st (2nd with Earth Spell) gets 3rded with Sanctum Spell.

I see. Spell level shenanigans taken up to 11.

Also, that's a lot of feats at first level, four for Spellshaper entry and two for Beholder Mage. I'm guessing you're using a human bonus feat, flaws, and taint shenanigans to cover them all.


Well yeah, you're binding your soul to weird extraplanar entities and channeling the supernatural powers of shadow and horror. You ARE evil. :smallbiggrin:

Touché. :smallamused:


What's Echo Spell (Secrets of Sarlona) btw?

It's a +3 metamagic from Secrets of Xendrik. Once every hour after you cast the spell, you regain it with a cumulative -4 caster level penalty. The spell stops echoing when its caster level drops below the minimum needed to cast it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 01:59 AM
I see. Spell level shenanigans taken up to 11.

Literally. That's how I'm mimicing Epic spells, remember.


Also, that's a lot of feats at first level, four for Spellshaper entry and two for Beholder Mage. I'm guessing you're using a human bonus feat, flaws, and taint shenanigans to cover them all.

Yup (well, not the human bonus feat, it's questionable whether you keep that after being PAOed). It's basically a more powerful version of the first one.


Touché. :smallamused:

Which leads me to another way to get free feats: Swear yourself to an Elder Evil. Obviously, though, this has downsides. You don't need to do it to get all those classes.


It's a +3 metamagic from Secrets of Xendrik. Once every hour after you cast the spell, you regain it with a cumulative -4 caster level penalty. The spell stops echoing when its caster level drops below the minimum needed to cast it.

So now you can cast a thousand miracles a day. Woot, I guess.

EDIT: Wait, no you can't, unless you take Arcane Preparation.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 02:00 AM
Also, if you really wanted to pull out ALL the stops, try the following. It requires party wealth pooling (you can easily pay them back later, so no worries) and the non-racist adaptation of ScM.

1: Binder
2: Beholder Mage
3: Metaphysical Spellshaper
4: Metaphysical Spellshaper
5: Metaphysical Spellshaper
6: Tainted Scholar
7: Tainted Scholar
8: Shadowcraft Mage
9: Shadowcraft Mage
10: Shadowcraft Mage
11: Incantatrix
12: Incantatrix
13: Incantatrix
14: Incantatrix
15: Incantatrix
16: Incantatrix
17: Incantatrix
18: Incantatrix
19: Incantatrix
20: Incantatrix

Hint: Bind Naberius.

...I feel dirty.

Minor criticism, I do not believe Book of Erotic Fantasy is a WoTC book unless there is another Metaphysical Spellshaper I am unaware of.

Gametime
2010-02-19, 02:05 AM
So now you can cast a thousand miracles a day. Woot, I guess.

...on a planet which took 1,008 hours to rotate, yes, you would. :smallbiggrin:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:08 AM
Minor criticism, I do not believe Book of Erotic Fantasy is a WoTC book unless there is another Metaphysical Spellshaper I am unaware of.

No, it isn't, but it is OGL. I did say "if you want to pull out all the stops".


...on a planet which took 1,008 hours to rotate, yes, you would. :smallbiggrin:

You already get about 120 a day. Since your CL is 50 or so, they'll each come back 8 times. Close enough to a thousand.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 02:16 AM
Question, what motivated the choice to use Tainted Scholar instead of Tainted Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana)?

Nate the Snake
2010-02-19, 02:18 AM
Literally. That's how I'm mimicing Epic spells, remember.

Clearly my subconscious mind grasps the finer points of your build even when my conscious mind doesn't. :smallbiggrin:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:23 AM
Question, what motivated the choice to use Tainted Scholar instead of Tainted Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana)?

More powerful. Under the Unearthed Arcana rules you can't have nearly as much taint.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 02:24 AM
More powerful. Under the Unearthed Arcana rules you can't have nearly as much taint.

Wouldn't the new taint rules replace the old ones? Taint as a mechanic was updated in Heroes of Horror. Tainted Sorcerer was not.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:27 AM
Wouldn't the new taint rules update the old ones? Taint as a mechanic was updated in Heroes of Horror. Tainted Sorcerer was not.

Tainted Sorcerer relies on the UA taint rules. It runs things off a "taint" score. It wouldn't work with the HoH rules, you'd have to use the UA ones.

There's also the problem that Tainted Sorcerer doesn't have Clarity of True Madness, making it much more difficult to get out of.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 02:33 AM
Tainted Sorcerer relies on the UA taint rules. It runs things off a "taint" score. It wouldn't work with the HoH rules, you'd have to use the UA ones.

There's also the problem that Tainted Sorcerer doesn't have Clarity of True Madness, making it much more difficult to get out of.

Never noticed that before about Tainted Sorcerer *Makes mental note*

What method are you using to prevent your taint from reaching self killing levels out of curiosity? I typically just dip Ardent then take Practiced Manifester to allow for a single dip in Subverted Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a).

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:46 AM
What method are you using to prevent your taint from reaching self killing levels out of curiosity? I typically just dip Ardent then take Practiced Manifester to allow for a single dip in Subverted Psion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a).

Subverted Psion is bad because you can't get out of it. It's got the same stupendously high Will save to get out as Tainted Scholar, and no easy means to hit it. And you can't use Tainted Scholar's, because that's 1/day and you need it to avoid taking a level in Tainted Scholar.

Without Subverted Psion, all you need to do is leave yourself a buffer and have some item on hand to remove some taint after a fight (until you get Shadow Miracle, then just use that). Or you could use taint-absorbing items. Or you could be undead, at which point the game snaps in half because you just gained infinite power.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 02:47 AM
Subverted Psion is bad because you can't get out of it. It's got the same stupendously high Will save to get out as Tainted Scholar, and no easy means to hit it. And you can't use Tainted Scholar's, because that's 1/day and you need it to avoid taking a level in Tainted Scholar.

Without Subverted Psion, all you need to do is leave yourself a buffer and have some item on hand to remove some taint after a fight (until you get Shadow Miracle, then just use that). Or you could use taint-absorbing items. Or you could be undead, at which point the game snaps in half because you just gained infinite power.

You could just take the Subverted Psion level last given that this is a level 20 TO build?

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 02:53 AM
You could just take the Subverted Psion level last given that this is a level 20 TO build?

And then how would I get Incantatrix 10 with its sweet, sweet Improved Metamagic?

faceroll
2010-02-19, 03:15 AM
Caster X/Tainted Scholar 1 is silly. As long as you're abusing the rules that badly, you broke the game as soon as you could afford a candle of invocation.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 03:27 AM
Caster X/Tainted Scholar 1 is silly. As long as you're abusing the rules that badly, you broke the game as soon as you could afford a candle of invocation.

What? I put two levels of Tainted Scholar in there. The second gives you Clarity of True Madness to get out with.

faceroll
2010-02-19, 03:34 AM
What? I put two levels of Tainted Scholar in there. The second gives you Clarity of True Madness to get out with.

Anything/tainted scholar is silly. It's not even trying. It's the pun-pun of casters, but totally self contained in its insanity. The mind boggles at anyone who runs a game with those optional rules in it.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-19, 03:36 AM
More powerOkay Tim the Tool Man Taylor

I must say with your last few threads, I feel a kindred Level 5 true limberger optimizer here. :smallcool:

Still, I usually stay away from massive casting silliness. Because we all know casters already win D&D. :smallannoyed:


Anything/tainted scholar is silly. It's not even trying. It's the pun-pun of casters, but totally self contained in its insanity. The mind boggles at anyone who runs a game with those optional rules in it.+1 :smallwink:

olentu
2010-02-19, 03:43 AM
I see no reason to have the arcane disciple feat on the character since so long as a wizard anywhere has the appropriate feat the spells would be available. One could free up a feat by mind controlling a lower level wizard and switching out one of their feats to arcane disciple. The lower level wizard could then be hidden or whatever and a feat would be saved.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 04:32 AM
Anything/tainted scholar is silly. It's not even trying. It's the pun-pun of casters, but totally self contained in its insanity. The mind boggles at anyone who runs a game with those optional rules in it.

I know. This is TO.


I see no reason to have the arcane disciple feat on the character since so long as a wizard anywhere has the appropriate feat the spells would be available. One could free up a feat by mind controlling a lower level wizard and switching out one of their feats to arcane disciple. The lower level wizard could then be hidden or whatever and a feat would be saved.

No, because it's only a sorcerer or wizard spell if you've made it one via Arcane Disciple.

olentu
2010-02-19, 05:04 AM
I know. This is TO.



No, because it's only a sorcerer or wizard spell if you've made it one via Arcane Disciple.

If the feat actually makes the spells a sorcerer or wizard spell then it would not matter who made them so only that they were made so. And thus one can free up a feat by making someone else make the spell into a sorcerer or wizard spell.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 05:06 AM
If the feat actually makes the spells a sorcerer or wizard spell then it would not matter who made them so only that they were made so. And thus one can free up a feat by making someone else make the spell into a sorcerer or wizard spell.

It makes it a sorcerer/wizard spell for YOU. Not for anyone else.

olentu
2010-02-19, 05:27 AM
It makes it a sorcerer/wizard spell for YOU. Not for anyone else.

Ok so before this goes on I am going to need to know what exact definition is being used for wizard spell. Without this I will likely not be able to make a cohesive argument as I would be basing my arguments on assumptions.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-19, 06:02 AM
Ok so before this goes on I am going to need to know what exact definition is being used for wizard spell. Without this I will likely not be able to make a cohesive argument as I would be basing my arguments on assumptions.

If you're a sorceror or wizard? A spell on your sorceror or wizard spell list.

If you're not? Any spell on the standard sorceror/wizard list.

olentu
2010-02-19, 06:08 AM
If you're a sorceror or wizard? A spell on your sorceror or wizard spell list.

If you're not? Any spell on the standard sorceror/wizard list.

Assuming that such is what is being taken to be correct then what is this definition being based upon and for what reason is there a distinction or is it just because it both makes the build work and requires that one have the arcane disciple feat.

I would find it being just because to be quite disappointing.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-19, 06:48 AM
Assuming that such is what is being taken to be correct then what is this definition being based upon and for what reason is there a distinction or is it just because it both makes the build work and requires that one have the arcane disciple feat.

I would find it being just because to be quite disappointing.

Arcane Disciple's pretty clear.


Benefit: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to.
They are on your class spell list. If you're a wizard, they're on your wizard spell list. That makes it a wizard spell, when you prepare, cast, or reference it. It works because Arcane Disciple explicitly references putting it on your class list.

The typical baseline in D&D is that if your character has an exception to a rule, you go with that (for your character). Otherwise, you go with the standard rules. That's simply being extended here.

Thus, if a character has a feat allowing him to make a 90 degree turn in a charge, then when he moves double his movement, and turns once, he can attack... Why? Because, for him, it's a charge. It may not be for someone else, but for him, it is.

olentu
2010-02-19, 07:08 AM
Arcane Disciple's pretty clear.


They are on your class spell list. If you're a wizard, they're on your wizard spell list. That makes it a wizard spell, when you prepare, cast, or reference it. It works because Arcane Disciple explicitly references putting it on your class list.

The typical baseline in D&D is that if your character has an exception to a rule, you go with that (for your character). Otherwise, you go with the standard rules. That's simply being extended here.

Thus, if a character has a feat allowing him to make a 90 degree turn in a charge, then when he moves double his movement, and turns once, he can attack... Why? Because, for him, it's a charge. It may not be for someone else, but for him, it is.


However the charge with a 90 degree turn is still a charge and thus anything someone else had that would trigger or depend on it being a charge would work.

Similarly shadow illusion would trigger off of the spell being a wizard spell even though said spell works differently for different wizards.


Also there has as of yet been no explination as to why the sorcerer/wizard spell list counts as wizard spells for non wizards. I am not saying I disagree but I do request justification since by your contention a spell being on list of one or more wizards is not enough for said spell to count as a wizard spell.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-19, 09:06 AM
However the charge with a 90 degree turn is still a charge and thus anything someone else had that would trigger or depend on it being a charge would work.
And when such a wizard casts miracle, any trigger which goes off sorceror/wizard spell or arcane spell would trigger. When such a character is preparing or casting miracle, it is a sorceror/wizard spell, on a sorceror/wizard class list.

Also there has as of yet been no explination as to why the sorcerer/wizard spell list counts as wizard spells for non wizards. I am not saying I disagree but I do request justification since by your contention a spell being on list of one or more wizards is not enough for said spell to count as a wizard spell.
Because they ARE sorceror/wizard spells. If the ability refers to "sorceror/wizard spells on your class list", then no, it wouldn't count for non-wizards (and non-sorcerors). But if it just refers to sorceror/wizard spells, then all the base spells are considered as such.

Here's a thought line for you.

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands. She may not change either her specialization or her prohibited schools later.


The user must have the spell on his or her class list.

Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell.
There's a solid argument that specializing actually removes the spell from your class list. Thus, anything that refers to that won't work any longer. They are no longer sorceror/wizard spells for you.

By the same token, things that add them to your class list add them to your sorceror/wizard spells.

In the absence of either of those? You go with the standard list. That's what there is before modifications.

To use the charge analogy: The charger can make 1 turn. He still has to follow other rules of charge, such as moving in an otherwise straight line, with no difficult terrain. Why? Because that's the standard. You may modify it, but that's always where you start.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-19, 09:13 AM
There's a solid argument that specializing actually removes the spell from your class list. Thus, anything that refers to that won't work any longer. They are no longer sorceror/wizard spells for you.

By the same token, things that add them to your class list add them to your sorceror/wizard spells.

In the absence of either of those? You go with the standard list. That's what there is before modifications.

This is my interpretation as well. You'll note that specializing does describe them as if they are not even on your list, ie "unavailable, and may not cast off scroll or wand". You can of course, still UMD them. It doesn't just prevent you from casting them...it prevents you from learning them. This is functionally identical to removing them from your spell list.

quiet1mi
2010-02-19, 09:40 AM
My eyes just glazed over the moment I saw... Incantatrix...

Tyndmyr
2010-02-19, 09:54 AM
My eyes just glazed over the moment I saw... Incantatrix...

And yet you got by the Tainted Scholar portion just fine?

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-19, 10:41 AM
And yet you got by the Tainted Scholar portion just fine?

Frankly, Tainted Scholar is far, far more broken than incantatrix. It's that bad.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-19, 10:48 AM
Frankly, Tainted Scholar is far, far more broken than incantatrix. It's that bad.

I completely agree. I'll use incantatrix in actual, playable builds. Tainted scholar is far tougher. It tends to break the game just by being there, even without any real attempt to.

faceroll
2010-02-19, 02:14 PM
Do you guys play in games with taint? It seems like one more metric you have to keep track of and, would contribute even more to the five minute adventuring day. "Alright guys, that was a pretty nasty villain we defeated, but now I have clubfeet! Time to blast some restorations!"

olentu
2010-02-19, 03:57 PM
And when such a wizard casts miracle, any trigger which goes off sorceror/wizard spell or arcane spell would trigger. When such a character is preparing or casting miracle, it is a sorceror/wizard spell, on a sorceror/wizard class list.

Because they ARE sorceror/wizard spells. If the ability refers to "sorceror/wizard spells on your class list", then no, it wouldn't count for non-wizards (and non-sorcerors). But if it just refers to sorceror/wizard spells, then all the base spells are considered as such.

Here's a thought line for you.




There's a solid argument that specializing actually removes the spell from your class list. Thus, anything that refers to that won't work any longer. They are no longer sorceror/wizard spells for you.

By the same token, things that add them to your class list add them to your sorceror/wizard spells.

In the absence of either of those? You go with the standard list. That's what there is before modifications.

To use the charge analogy: The charger can make 1 turn. He still has to follow other rules of charge, such as moving in an otherwise straight line, with no difficult terrain. Why? Because that's the standard. You may modify it, but that's always where you start.


So since as you have said when such a wizard prepares or casts miracle it is a wizard spell and as such would be available for shadow illusion I see no reason why it would not be a wizard spell when the wizard chooses not to prepare it for the day.


So the spells on the wizard spell list and only the spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells and that is why they count for non wizards. Similarly either the feat adds the spells to the wizard spell list and thus makes it a wizard spell or it does not do so and thus it does not make it a wizard spell. Since I must assume that the first is taken to be true for the trick to work then there is no reason why said spell would not be a wizard spell without regard for which wizard has placed upon the list.

Also while banning a school does make exceptions that mimic the effects of a spell no being on ones spell list rather completely it would not remove the spells from the list without saying that it does. Saying that it does so without something in the rules saying such a thing is rather making banning a school into more then what it is.

And as for the charge thing it is still a charge regardless of if every character can make such a charge and as such it would trigger charge related things because it is a charge.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-20, 05:32 AM
My eyes just glazed over the moment I saw... Incantatrix...

You glazed over at Incantatrix, despite the presence of Shadowcraft Mage, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar AND Metaphysical Spellshaper.

Nice.


Do you guys play in games with taint? It seems like one more metric you have to keep track of and, would contribute even more to the five minute adventuring day. "Alright guys, that was a pretty nasty villain we defeated, but now I have clubfeet! Time to blast some restorations!"

Well, for anyone who doesn't actually want taint, one feat (Pure Soul) gets rid of the problem. For those that do, they'll generally want it at severe, which means you don't need the powerful category-dropping spells, just Remove Curse and Remove Disease. The fact that the former is on the Sor/Wiz spell list is extremely nice for Tainted Scholar, since it's depravity accumulation that they have to worry about mostly.


So since as you have said when such a wizard prepares or casts miracle it is a wizard spell and as such would be available for shadow illusion I see no reason why it would not be a wizard spell when the wizard chooses not to prepare it for the day.

For that wizard, yes, it would continue being a wizard spell. After all, Arcane Disciple says it's added to your list.


So the spells on the wizard spell list and only the spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells and that is why they count for non wizards. Similarly either the feat adds the spells to the wizard spell list and thus makes it a wizard spell or it does not do so and thus it does not make it a wizard spell. Since I must assume that the first is taken to be true for the trick to work then there is no reason why said spell would not be a wizard spell without regard for which wizard has placed upon the list.

I don't see your problem with what we're saying.

Premise: Arcane Disciple adds spells to your arcane spell list.
Premise: "Your arcane spell list" for a wizard, means your wizard spell list.
Conclusion: Arcane Disciple adds spells to your wizard spell list if you're a wizard.
Additional premise: Spells on your wizard spell list are wizard spells for you.
Conclusion: Arcane Disciple allows you to treat spells as wizard spells that are otherwise not wizard spells.

It doesn't add spells to anyone else's spell lists, so it doesn't let them treat Miracle as a wizard spell.


Incidentally, I see noone noticed the problem in my Metaphysical IncanTainted Shadowcraft Beholder Mage that I forgot about, namely that a Beholder Mage cannot ordinarily cast 10th level spells due to only having 10 eyestalks (since the eyestalks cast off spell level, not spell slot). The way to fix this seems to be to get two Beholder Eye Stalk grafts (Fiend Folio), though I would STRONGLY suggest you get a friendly artificer (ie party, cohort or dominated) to make them for you, as otherwise half your 20th-level WBL just evaporated (they cost 195k each). You only need one to get 10th-level spells (for Shadow Miracle) but you need the second to get 11th-level spells for the pre-epic epic mimicry.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-20, 06:42 AM
So since as you have said when such a wizard prepares or casts miracle it is a wizard spell and as such would be available for shadow illusion I see no reason why it would not be a wizard spell when the wizard chooses not to prepare it for the day.Wrong. Is Meteor Swarm only a wizard spell when it's prepared? No. It's on the wizard spell list. It's a wizard spell.

In this instance, Miracle is on the wizard's class spell list. It is a class spell for him, for any, every, and all purposes that reference class spells. If he makes a scroll with miracle, it's an Arcane scroll, and as such, most clerics won't be able to use it without UMD.

The ability we're referencing refers to class spells. For that wizard, Miracle is a class spell. Period. That's all there is to it. That's what the rule says, that's how the rule's interpreted.

To say that the spell is only a wizard spell when he prepares it? Would only be valid if it were not explicitly listed as being added to his class spell list.


So the spells on the wizard spell list and only the spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells and that is why they count for non wizards.
Incorrect. In the absence of anything which legally alters the wizard spell list, the spells on the wizard spell list and only the spells on the wizard spell list are wizard spells(and that is why they count for non wizards).

Similarly either the feat adds the spells to the wizard spell list and thus makes it a wizard spell or it does not do so and thus it does not make it a wizard spell. Since I must assume that the first is taken to be true for the trick to work then there is no reason why said spell would not be a wizard spell without regard for which wizard has placed upon the list.Simple. The feat states that it adds the spell to the wizard who took the feat's class spell list. Not any other wizard. Thus? If you don't take the feat, it's not on your class spell list, and is therefore not considered a wizard spell.


Also while banning a school does make exceptions that mimic the effects of a spell no being on ones spell list rather completely it would not remove the spells from the list without saying that it does. Saying that it does so without something in the rules saying such a thing is rather making banning a school into more then what it is.And saying it's a wizard spell for a character that doesn't have the feat (and thus, doesn't have it on his spell list) is something that the rules do not say they do. It's a wizard spell if (and ONLY if) you are a wizard, and it is on your wizard class spell list.


And as for the charge thing it is still a charge regardless of if every character can make such a charge and as such it would trigger charge related things because it is a charge.
And as for the miracle thing, it is a wizard spell regardless of if every character can cast such a miracle and as such, would trigger wizard spell related things because it is a wizard spell.

If any other character tried to cast a miracle this way, it would be against the rules. Why? Because they don't have the feat that puts it on their class list. If any other SCM tried to Silent Image a miracle this way, it would be against the rules. Why? Because they don't have the feat that puts it on their class list.

If any other character tried to make a charge in that way, it would be against the rules. Why? Because they don't have the feat that allows a turn with a charge.

When the character that can do a charge with a turn does it, it's a charge. When anyone else tries, it's not.

When the character that has miracle on his wizard class list refers to his miracle spell, it's a wizard spell. When anyone else refers to it, it's not. Why? Because it is on his class list.

It is on his class list. The list of spells that are inherent to his class. Not on any other wizard's class list. Just his.

You are not getting that last point, and I'm almost beginning to suspect you're willfully skirting that.

olentu
2010-02-20, 06:58 AM
For that wizard, yes, it would continue being a wizard spell. After all, Arcane Disciple says it's added to your list.



I don't see your problem with what we're saying.

Premise: Arcane Disciple adds spells to your arcane spell list.
Premise: "Your arcane spell list" for a wizard, means your wizard spell list.
Conclusion: Arcane Disciple adds spells to your wizard spell list if you're a wizard.
Additional premise: Spells on your wizard spell list are wizard spells for you.
Conclusion: Arcane Disciple allows you to treat spells as wizard spells that are otherwise not wizard spells.

It doesn't add spells to anyone else's spell lists, so it doesn't let them treat Miracle as a wizard spell.

First of all arcane disciple does not add the spells to your arcane spell list by your interpretation. A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list and so the wizards arcane spell list would be the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Arcane disciple adds the spells to your class list of arcane spells. Now it seems that the problem is between interpretations of just exactly what your class list of arcane spells. Now since you have decided that this list is not the sorcerer/wizard spell list it must be something different. Using class=wizard arcane disciple adds the spell to your wizard list of arcane spells. A delicious list of pies is a list that is delicious, a flaming list of cars is a list that is flaming, and so forth. Because of this one must guess at just what was intended. You interpret it as being your list of spells that you and only you can treat as wizard spells. I on the other hand interpret it as your wizard's list of arcane spells since that requires the least change to the text while still giving a reasonable answer. Or alternatively it could perhaps be interpreted to mean your list of wizard spells I would however need to see supporting documents as I do not care to search out obscure rules of the english language that may or may not exist. However since your means in your possession then as the spells are on a list of spells that are wizard spells the spells would be wizard spells. Though actually after having written this it seems as if both interpretations are actually interpretations. However that does not make for good discussion and so for the moment I will put it aside.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-20, 07:13 AM
First of all arcane disciple does not add the spells to your arcane spell list by your interpretation. A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list and so the wizards arcane spell list would be the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Arcane disciple adds the spells to your class list of arcane spells. Now it seems that the problem is between interpretations of just exactly what your class list of arcane spells. Now since you have decided that this list is not the sorcerer/wizard spell list it must be something different. Using class=wizard arcane disciple adds the spell to your wizard list of arcane spells. A delicious list of pies is a list that is delicious, a flaming list of cars is a list that is flaming, and so forth. Because of this one must guess at just what was intended. You interpret it as being your list of spells that you and only you can treat as wizard spells. I on the other hand interpret it as your wizard's list of arcane spells since that requires the least change to the text while still giving a reasonable answer. Or alternatively it could perhaps be interpreted to mean your list of wizard spells I would however need to see supporting documents as I do not care to search out obscure rules of the english language that may or may not exist. However since your means in your possession then as the spells are on a list of spells that are wizard spells the spells would be wizard spells. Though actually after having written this it seems as if both interpretations are actually interpretations. However that does not make for good discussion and so for the moment I will put it aside.

Let us look at it from this view.

A character with this feat may add spells from another spell list to his class spell list.

Conversely:
A character without this feat may not do so.

If an interpretation grants the benefit of the feat without having to actually take the feat? I surmise that that is a false interpretation.

By your argument, because this feat exists, any spell legally chosen by it is added to the standard sorceror/wizard spell list.

As you stated, a Wizard prepares and casts spells drawn from that list.

Therefore? By your interpretation, any wizard (even one without this feat) may prepare and cast any spell that could be legally chosen by that feat.

Now, this is merely following your line of reasoning. I want it to be said: I do not agree with this viewpoint. Any interpretation where the mere existence of a feat alters a fundamental class feature of every wizard and sorceror, whether or not they have it?

I find that interpretation horribly flawed.

EDIT: Incidentally? I find any argument that references needing to "search out obscure rules of the english language that may or may not exist"? I find such arguments highly suspect and generally couched far too much in semantics and far too little in reason.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-20, 09:42 AM
First of all arcane disciple does not add the spells to your arcane spell list by your interpretation. A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list and so the wizards arcane spell list would be the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Arcane disciple adds the spells to your class list of arcane spells.

Specifically, your wizard list. You pick a class that it adds to.


Now it seems that the problem is between interpretations of just exactly what your class list of arcane spells. Now since you have decided that this list is not the sorcerer/wizard spell list it must be something different.

I haven't decided that at all. It IS the wizard list. It is merely modified in this case by Arcane Disciple.


Using class=wizard arcane disciple adds the spell to your wizard list of arcane spells. A delicious list of pies is a list that is delicious, a flaming list of cars is a list that is flaming, and so forth. Because of this one must guess at just what was intended. You interpret it as being your list of spells that you and only you can treat as wizard spells.

Yes, I do.


I on the other hand interpret it as your wizard's list of arcane spells since that requires the least change to the text while still giving a reasonable answer.

I haven't changed the text, and "your wizard's list of arcane spells" blatantly contradicts that you pick a class which it adds to. It adds the spells to your wizard class list.


Or alternatively it could perhaps be interpreted to mean your list of wizard spells I would however need to see supporting documents as I do not care to search out obscure rules of the english language that may or may not exist.

There are no obscure rules of the english language involved.


However since your means in your possession then as the spells are on a list of spells that are wizard spells the spells would be wizard spells.

Because they are on your wizard spell list, they are wizard spells for you, as "wizard spell" applies to a spell if and only if it is on the wizard spell list.

Volkov
2010-02-20, 09:50 AM
You can't have a killer creature with less than one hundred hit dice.....My Old DM's rules on the killer creature pseudotemplate says so. See the killer penguin for confirmation.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-20, 10:02 AM
You can't have a killer creature with less than one hundred hit dice.....My Old DM's rules on the killer creature pseudotemplate says so. See the killer penguin for confirmation.

Given that Tainted Scholars can make Phantasmal Killer into something to run from screaming, I'd say they're fairly effective killers.

Also, I borrowed the term "Killer Gnome", I didn't make it up myself. It's a common name for the Earth Spell-Shadowcraft Mage combination.

olentu
2010-02-21, 05:45 AM
I am going to put my closing statement here as well as below to be sure that it is seen.

In conclusion I am going to say that it seems to me that the disagreement is due to a fundamental difference in interpretation and because of this I do not believe that it is able to be resolved unless someone has something that they have held back for no real reason. Since I find that somewhat illogical I do not believe that to be the case I feel that any further discussion will likely consist of both sides repeating the same points back and forth. Now I would not really have a problem with this except that I know that others sometimes do.

So because I try to act in a considerate manner I am willing to let the discussion drop so as to stop derailing the thread and so as not to spend others time on something they may find unpleasant. To this end I will not continue the argument unless someone responds in an argumentative manner to this post which I will take as an expression fo the desire to continue the discussion to resolution of course barring sufficient evidence to the contrary.


Let us look at it from this view.

A character with this feat may add spells from another spell list to his class spell list.

Conversely:
A character without this feat may not do so.

If an interpretation grants the benefit of the feat without having to actually take the feat? I surmise that that is a false interpretation.

By your argument, because this feat exists, any spell legally chosen by it is added to the standard sorceror/wizard spell list.

As you stated, a Wizard prepares and casts spells drawn from that list.

Therefore? By your interpretation, any wizard (even one without this feat) may prepare and cast any spell that could be legally chosen by that feat.

Now, this is merely following your line of reasoning. I want it to be said: I do not agree with this viewpoint. Any interpretation where the mere existence of a feat alters a fundamental class feature of every wizard and sorceror, whether or not they have it?

I find that interpretation horribly flawed.

EDIT: Incidentally? I find any argument that references needing to "search out obscure rules of the english language that may or may not exist"? I find such arguments highly suspect and generally couched far too much in semantics and far too little in reason.

Well someone would have to take the feat and just to be clear it does seem that there might technically be some interpretation needed for this build to work in either case and if that is so it is a DM call but I was ignoring that for the sake of the argument.

Also the part about searching out obscure rules was about an argument that was not related to my position.


Specifically, your wizard list. You pick a class that it adds to.



I haven't decided that at all. It IS the wizard list. It is merely modified in this case by Arcane Disciple.



Yes, I do.



I haven't changed the text, and "your wizard's list of arcane spells" blatantly contradicts that you pick a class which it adds to. It adds the spells to your wizard class list.



There are no obscure rules of the english language involved.



Because they are on your wizard spell list, they are wizard spells for you, as "wizard spell" applies to a spell if and only if it is on the wizard spell list.

Now I am going to have to say that you are being inconsistent You have said that the list is the wizard spell list and you have also said that it is not the wizard spell list unless I am misinterpreting something. However in your conclusion it seems that you decided on the spells being added to the wizard spell list given that you said ""wizard spell" applies to a spell if and only if it is on the wizard spell list" and that you are on the side of this build working. To that end I am going to act as if you are saying that the spells are added to the wizard spell list. Now then it seems that the disagreement is that we interpret what the wizard spell list is differently.



In conclusion I am going to say that it seems to me that the disagreement is due to a fundamental difference in interpretation and because of this I do not believe that it is able to be resolved unless someone has something that they have held back for no real reason. Since I find that somewhat illogical I do not believe that to be the case I feel that any further discussion will likely consist of both sides repeating the same points back and forth. Now I would not really have a problem with this except that I know that others sometimes do.

So because I try to act in a considerate manner I am willing to let the discussion drop so as to stop derailing the thread and so as not to spend others time on something they may find unpleasant. To this end I will not continue the argument unless someone responds in an argumentative manner to this post which I will take as an expression fo the desire to continue the discussion to resolution of course barring sufficient evidence to the contrary.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 05:53 AM
You assume it's "your wizard's class spell list".
It's actually "your wizard class spell list".

In this instance "class spell list" is a reserved term. "wizard" identifies which one.

Under your interpretation, it can be any class spell list your wizard possesses. So a Wizard 1/Cleric 19 can choose his cleric list, as that is one of his class spell list.

Under the correct interpretation, it refers to the spell list associated with your wizard class. That can have spells added or removed from it, by RAW. Those changes don't alter the universal standard (unless they state that they do). Just your character. So, when the feat states that is adds spells to "your class spell list"? They become class spells for you. That's pure RAW. Any other interpretation is not.

In short, yes, there is a fundamental interpretation difference. We are interpreting it correctly. You are interpreting it incorrectly. That's the difference.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 06:01 AM
Now I am going to have to say that you are being inconsistent You have said that the list is the wizard spell list and you have also said that it is not the wizard spell list unless I am misinterpreting something. However in your conclusion it seems that you decided on the spells being added to the wizard spell list given that you said ""wizard spell" applies to a spell if and only if it is on the wizard spell list" and that you are on the side of this build working. To that end I am going to act as if you are saying that the spells are added to the wizard spell list. Now then it seems that the disagreement is that we interpret what the wizard spell list is differently.

I really don't get what you're saying here.

Wizard spell = spell that is on Wizard list.
Arcane Disciple = adds spell to your personal Wizard list.

Therefore, Arcane Disciple makes the spells Wizard spells for you (which is why you can cast them). Hence since they are Wizard spells, Shadow Illusion works for them.

You're claiming a contradiction with... what, exactly?

jcsw
2010-02-21, 07:58 AM
20 (Shadow Adept): Insidious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)
20 (Shadow Adept): Pernicious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)
20 (Shadow Adept): Tenacious Magic (to be Chaos Shuffled)

WHY WOULD YOU GET RID OF THESE FEATS? They're so awesome both in fluff and crunch.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-21, 08:14 AM
If Shadow Miracles work, then any Shadowcraft Mage could point at that guy over there and say, "He has Arcane Disciple and has added Miracle to his Wizard spell list, so I can emulate it with Shadow Illusion!" The character himself wouldn't need Arcane Disciple, because that guy has already added Miracle to the Wizard spell list.

This is clearly not how it works. A character of X class casts X spells, for example a Wizard casts Wizard spells. There is a differentiation between your Wizard spell list and The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The similar wording lends enough ambiguity to those who are willfully ignorant of this to exploit the system, and this should be treated as nothing short of cheating. Simply put, calling it your Wizard spell list is merely for convenience; it's actually your class spell list, which has no power to affect the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

So a Wizard can use Arcane Disciple to add Miracle to his Wizard spell list. Shadow Illusion mimics a Sorcerer or Wizard spell of one of those schools. Now replace the base class of a given Shadowcraft Mage build with Beguiler. Arcane Disciple now adds Miracle to his Beguiler spell list, and he cannot use Shadow Illusion to mimic it because it specifies a Sorcerer or Wizard spell. Miracle is not added to any Wizard spell list, it is not added to any Beguiler spell list; it is added to your class spell list, just like the feat says. You can learn it and cast it and use spell trigger and spell completion items of it because it is on your class spell list, just like those abilities state. It may replace the word 'class' with your character class within the character description for convenience, but that has nothing to do with the printed spell list for any given class.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 08:34 AM
WHY WOULD YOU GET RID OF THESE FEATS? They're so awesome both in fluff and crunch.

Because you wanted others? They're alright, I guess.


If Shadow Miracles work, then any Shadowcraft Mage could point at that guy over there and say, "He has Arcane Disciple and has added Miracle to his Wizard spell list, so I can emulate it with Shadow Illusion!" The character himself wouldn't need Arcane Disciple, because that guy has already added Miracle to the Wizard spell list.

No, he's added Miracle to HIS Wizard spell list.


This is clearly not how it works. A character of X class casts X spells, for example a Wizard casts Wizard spells. There is a differentiation between your Wizard spell list and The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The similar wording lends enough ambiguity to those who are willfully ignorant of this to exploit the system, and this should be treated as nothing short of cheating. Simply put, calling it your Wizard spell list is merely for convenience; it's actually your class spell list, which has no power to affect the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

It has no power to affect the standard one. But it affects the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list for YOU.


So a Wizard can use Arcane Disciple to add Miracle to his Wizard spell list. Shadow Illusion mimics a Sorcerer or Wizard spell of one of those schools. Now replace the base class of a given Shadowcraft Mage build with Beguiler. Arcane Disciple now adds Miracle to his Beguiler spell list, and he cannot use Shadow Illusion to mimic it because it specifies a Sorcerer or Wizard spell.

Correct. He has not made Miracle a Sorcerer or Wizard spell for him, and hence it is not mimicable with Shadow Illusion.


Miracle is not added to any Wizard spell list, it is not added to any Beguiler spell list; it is added to your class spell list, just like the feat says.

Your class spell list is the Wizard spell list. You are casting it as a Wizard spell. (For a wizard taking the feat, that is.) Hence, "the Wizard spell list" for you now means "the standard Wizard list plus these extra spells".


You can learn it and cast it and use spell trigger and spell completion items of it because it is on your class spell list, just like those abilities state. It may replace the word 'class' with your character class within the character description for convenience, but that has nothing to do with the printed spell list for any given class.

It doesn't change the printed spell list, but it makes it a sorcerer/wizard spell for YOU.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 11:27 AM
This is clearly not how it works. A character of X class casts X spells, for example a Wizard casts Wizard spells. There is a differentiation between your Wizard spell list and The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The similar wording lends enough ambiguity to those who are willfully ignorant of this to exploit the system, and this should be treated as nothing short of cheating. Simply put, calling it your Wizard spell list is merely for convenience; it's actually your class spell list, which has no power to affect the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

So a Wizard can use Arcane Disciple to add Miracle to his Wizard spell list. Shadow Illusion mimics a Sorcerer or Wizard spell of one of those schools. Now replace the base class of a given Shadowcraft Mage build with Beguiler. Arcane Disciple now adds Miracle to his Beguiler spell list, and he cannot use Shadow Illusion to mimic it because it specifies a Sorcerer or Wizard spell. Miracle is not added to any Wizard spell list, it is not added to any Beguiler spell list; it is added to your class spell list, just like the feat says. You can learn it and cast it and use spell trigger and spell completion items of it because it is on your class spell list, just like those abilities state. It may replace the word 'class' with your character class within the character description for convenience, but that has nothing to do with the printed spell list for any given class.

Except there is nothing in the SCM that suggests that it goes by the printed spell list. It goes by "sorceror/wizard spells". However, there is something in Arcane Disciple that states that they are added to your list.

If you are a wizard, then your class spell list is the Sorceror/Wizard list (barring spells that are sorceror only). Arcane Disciple adds spells to that list for you. Thus, SCM has additional spell interactions for you.

In other words? If it's on your list of wizard spells and you cast it out of wizard slots? It's a wizard spell. I defy you to find me an alternate rule stating that it's not, and that it refers to only printed material.

In such a case, I'll just type up a spell list for wizards with those additional spells on it (they're added). Now it's printed material.

See the point? Whether someone's put it in ink is irrelevant. If it's on your class spell list, you treat it as a wizard spell.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-21, 04:24 PM
Let's look at a few definitions:

Sorcerer/Wizard spell list: The printed list of sorcerer/wizard spells, clearly labeled, in the back of the book. If a spell is included in this list, you'll find 'Sor/Wiz #' on the Level line in the spell's stat block. This serves as the default list of spells that Sorcerers and Wizards can learn, cast, and use spell completion and spell trigger items from. It is also the list of spells which Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and similar spells are able to emulate.

Class Spell List: The list of spells that your character can learn, cast, and use spell trigger and spell completion items from. By default it starts out as the printed list with the name of your class in its heading, but spells may be added or removed due to specialization, feats, and class features. Occasionally the word 'class' is replaced by the name of your character class, but this is not to be confused with the printed list with that class in its heading.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A WIZARD SPELL LIST, you have a class spell list which is sometimes referred to as your [class name] spell list instead. Regardless, you are intentionally confusing this with the printed Sorcerer/Wizard spell list as defined above.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-21, 04:58 PM
Let's look at a few definitions:

Sorcerer/Wizard spell list: The printed list of sorcerer/wizard spells, clearly labeled, in the back of the book. If a spell is included in this list, you'll find 'Sor/Wiz #' on the Level line in the spell's stat block. This serves as the default list of spells that Sorcerers and Wizards can learn, cast, and use spell completion and spell trigger items from. It is also the list of spells which Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and similar spells are able to emulate.Back of the book? Which book? The Player's Handbook? So all the Sorc/Wiz spells in the Spell Compendium must not be part of it?


Class Spell List: The list of spells that your character can learn, cast, and use spell trigger and spell completion items from. By default it starts out as the printed list with the name of your class in its heading, but spells may be added or removed due to specialization, feats, and class features. Occasionally the word 'class' is replaced by the name of your character class, but this is not to be confused with the printed list with that class in its heading.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A WIZARD SPELL LIST, you have a class spell list which is sometimes referred to as your [class name] spell list instead. Regardless, you are intentionally confusing this with the printed Sorcerer/Wizard spell list as defined above.

As for the definitions themselves? Got any actual official rule source you can cite to provide so much as a shred of legitimacy to this?

Or is this 100% your personal opinion and conjecture, and not supported in any way by RAW?

Because I don't see any such definitions or distinctions in the Player's handbook glossary.

Edit: What I have, however, found:

Spells

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

This is even FURTHER muddied by the fact that sorcerors are RAW allowed to select spells not on this list. What is a Sorceror spell, then? Why, any spell that a sorceror can cast. When one attains 9th level magic, there is nothing stating that the sorceror just can't up and pick Miracle.

But that's the list under the wizard entry. The sorceror/wizard spell list is the list for a wizard's class-granted spells. Thus, the sorceror/wizard spell list is the wizard's class spell list. Barring any RAW (which is to mean, not total opinion on your part) distinction showing a difference between the wizard spell list and a wizard's class spell list, there is no RAW distinction.

Which means they're the same.
And you're wrong.

Arcane Disciple adds spells to your class spell list. The only spell list referred to in the wizard entry is the sorc/wizard spell list. That's it. The only one. Without any compelling evidence to the contrary, it must be assumed that this is the spell list referred to.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-21, 11:10 PM
Let's look at a few definitions:

Sorcerer/Wizard spell list: The printed list of sorcerer/wizard spells, clearly labeled, in the back of the book. If a spell is included in this list, you'll find 'Sor/Wiz #' on the Level line in the spell's stat block. This serves as the default list of spells that Sorcerers and Wizards can learn, cast, and use spell completion and spell trigger items from. It is also the list of spells which Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Evocation, and similar spells are able to emulate.

Class Spell List: The list of spells that your character can learn, cast, and use spell trigger and spell completion items from. By default it starts out as the printed list with the name of your class in its heading, but spells may be added or removed due to specialization, feats, and class features. Occasionally the word 'class' is replaced by the name of your character class, but this is not to be confused with the printed list with that class in its heading.

YOU DO NOT HAVE A WIZARD SPELL LIST, you have a class spell list which is sometimes referred to as your [class name] spell list instead. Regardless, you are intentionally confusing this with the printed Sorcerer/Wizard spell list as defined above.

No, I'm not. Because Arcane Disciple adds the spells to your [class] spell list, they are [class] spells for you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-22, 01:56 AM
I was just trying to put it in a way that would be easier to understand, as a lot of people here have already been mislead into believing that this would work.

Everything that needs to be said can be found in the fifth post, back on page 1, which I will now reiterate:

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
This is the Primary Source RAW.

A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell
to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning),
conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower
than the illusion spell.
Looking back at Miracle, it is an evocation, but it is not a sorcerer or wizard evocation.

Benefit: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list
of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from
more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting
ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision
cannot be changed for that feat.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however,
you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for
your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the
spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to
10 + the spell’s level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained
from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without
preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells
of each level.
Ambiguously worded secondary source. Luckily, it spells out exactly what it allows:
Choose which arcane spellcasting class the feat applies to.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class, though you use your Wisdom score.
Each day, you may prepare/cast only one of each level.

Note the poor editing in the end of the last paragraph: "these domains spells" should probably instead read one of the following ways:
1. "these domain's spells"
2. "these domains' spells"
3. "these domain spells"
Option (1) isn't even proper English, and if it is correct it should be changed to 'this' rather than 'these' though it would be a greater change than either of the other two. Option (2) does not fit the rest of the feat, as you only gain access to one domain and this one pluralizes it. Option (3) implies that the spells are still treated as domain spells, rather than spells of whatever class you are. Clerics gain domain spells in this exact same way, they are treated apart from his Cleric spell list but he can still learn and cast them and use spell trigger and spell completion items containing them. Therefore, we have no choice but to conclude that this secondary source still does not override the primary source, as you gain Miracle as a Luck Domain spell rather than a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. The Primary Source RAW on Miracle still does not fit the criteria for emulation via Shadow Illusion, and the trick does not work.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 02:26 AM
I was just trying to put it in a way that would be easier to understand, as a lot of people here have already been mislead into believing that this would work.No, you're misleading them into believing that this wouldn't.


Everything that needs to be said can be found in the fifth post, back on page 1, which I will now reiterate:

This is the Primary Source RAW.

Looking back at Miracle, it is an evocation, but it is not a sorcerer or wizard evocation.Yes. And RAW charges must be in a straight line. Primary source is not always a core book. Primary source is the most direct rule. If you have a character with Psionic Charge, and you're referring to turning while charging, the Psionic Charge feat is primary source, overriding the core rules on charging where appropriate.

In this instance, when determining what spells are on your class list? Arcane Disciple is primary source for any rules that it has, overriding the core rules where appropriate.

Why? Because, that is how feats work. They grant you abilities not otherwise allowed in core rules. In other words, primary source for the function of a feat lies with the feat itself.


Ambiguously worded secondary source. Luckily, it spells out exactly what it allows:
Choose which arcane spellcasting class the feat applies to.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class, though you use your Wisdom score.
Each day, you may prepare/cast only one of each level.
You forgot one part.


Benefit: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list of arcane spells.
That is the very first thing it states. The chosen domain's spells are added to your class list of arcane spells. What does that mean? Before, they were not part of your class list (as evidenced by the core rules you eloquently cited), and now, they are part of your class list.

This is not an ambiguous interpretation. You take all the spells in the chosen
domain. You add them to your class list. There are other things that are done, but this is the primary benefit, and, for resolving what it does, this is the primary source.


Note the poor editing in the end of the last paragraph: "these domains spells" should probably instead read one of the following ways:
1. "these domain's spells"
2. "these domains' spells"
3. "these domain spells"
Option (1) isn't even proper English, and if it is correct it should be changed to 'this' rather than 'these' though it would be a greater change than either of the other two. Option (2) does not fit the rest of the feat, as you only gain access to one domain and this one pluralizes it. Option (3) implies that the spells are still treated as domain spells, rather than spells of whatever class you are. Clerics gain domain spells in this exact same way, they are treated apart from his Cleric spell list but he can still learn and cast them and use spell trigger and spell completion items containing them. Therefore, we have no choice but to conclude that this secondary source still does not override the primary source, as you gain Miracle as a Luck Domain spell rather than a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. The Primary Source RAW on Miracle still does not fit the criteria for emulation via Shadow Illusion, and the trick does not work.
WRONG WRONG WRONG. You are taking implications and assumptions and trying to use them to overwrite what is actually said. You are misinterpreting primary source.

The Miracle spell entry is Primary source for the standard function of the Miracle spell. If another text later explicitly alters that (as this feat can do, by stating that it adds a spell to a new list), then it is primary source as far as the alterations go. In this instance, this is what is actually said:

(1) The spells from your chosen domain are added to your class list. (Source: Explicit text, Arcane Disciple.)
(2) You use your wisdom modifier to determine your eligibility to cast these domain spells, and also to set the DC.
(3) You use your wizard spell slots to prepare and cast the spell.
(4) You may cast one, and only one, of each level of spell added through this feat per day.

That's the differences between the standard, and the main entries. So, insofar as primary source is concerned, for the above points, this is primary source. While the text for miracle is primary source for the standard use of the spell, this is not the standard use, and so, the feat alterations hold sway over the base rules.

In short? You have no RAW backing your interpretations, definitions, or beliefs. It is 100% your opinion. I have explicit RAW, and cited text, backing mine. It is 100% RAW. If you don't agree with it, that's one thing. Heck, I don't like plums. But I'm not gonna go and start calling them grapes. A plum is a plum, and I don't like it.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 02:36 AM
*applauds PhoenixRivers and yells "Hear, hear!"*

olentu
2010-02-22, 05:07 AM
You assume it's "your wizard's class spell list".
It's actually "your wizard class spell list".

In this instance "class spell list" is a reserved term. "wizard" identifies which one.

Under your interpretation, it can be any class spell list your wizard possesses. So a Wizard 1/Cleric 19 can choose his cleric list, as that is one of his class spell list.

Under the correct interpretation, it refers to the spell list associated with your wizard class. That can have spells added or removed from it, by RAW. Those changes don't alter the universal standard (unless they state that they do). Just your character. So, when the feat states that is adds spells to "your class spell list"? They become class spells for you. That's pure RAW. Any other interpretation is not.

In short, yes, there is a fundamental interpretation difference. We are interpreting it correctly. You are interpreting it incorrectly. That's the difference.

Er I can not find any rule that says that the sorcerer/wizard spell list can not ever have spells added or removed. If you can find one please tell me as that would break my argument otherwise I will say that the spell list associated with the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

But in the absence of such a ruling regarding the mutability of the sorcerer/wizard spell list you are adding a rule where it does not exist.

As a note these are basically the same points that have been brought up before as I expected them to be.


I really don't get what you're saying here.

Wizard spell = spell that is on Wizard list.
Arcane Disciple = adds spell to your personal Wizard list.

Therefore, Arcane Disciple makes the spells Wizard spells for you (which is why you can cast them). Hence since they are Wizard spells, Shadow Illusion works for them.

You're claiming a contradiction with... what, exactly?

I was saying that you were a bit unclear to me and appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. In any case see above.

Also the misinterpretation is even a point that was brought up before (albeit by a different person) so that is another point that has again been recycled.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 05:14 AM
Er I can not find any rule that says that the sorcerer/wizard spell list can not ever have spells added or removed. If you can find one please tell me as that would break my argument otherwise I will say that the spell list associated with the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

But in the absence of such a ruling regarding the mutability of the sorcerer/wizard spell list you are adding a rule where it does not exist.

As a note these are basically the same points that have been brought up before as I expected them to be.



I was saying that you were a bit unclear to me and appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. In any case see above.

Also the misinterpretation is even a point that was brought up before (albeit by a different person) so that is another point that has again been recycled.

We're bringing them up because you're just repeating "there's a contradiction" without making much sense. It's confusing.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 05:28 AM
Er I can not find any rule that says that the sorcerer/wizard spell list can not ever have spells added or removed. If you can find one please tell me as that would break my argument otherwise I will say that the spell list associated with the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

But in the absence of such a ruling regarding the mutability of the sorcerer/wizard spell list you are adding a rule where it does not exist.

Simple. Arcane Disciple is a rule which adds spells to a caster's class list.
Since the rule instructs you to add spells to a class list, class lists can obviously be altered.

As for "the spell list associated with the wizard class is the sorceror/wizard spell list". First, there are spells that are wizard only, that are not on that list. There are spells that are sorceror only, as well.

Basically? You can say whatever you like. You can say that dogs have a fly speed. That doesn't make it true. The spell list associated with the wizard class is (with minor exceptions for class specific spells), the sorceror/wizard spell list. This is the general rule.

The spell list associated with a wizard that has arcane disciple is (with minor exceptions for class specific spells), the sorceror/wizard spell list and additional spells belonging to a single domain. Why? Because the feat instructs you to add them to your class list. That makes them class spells.

I honestly can't believe that someone, ANYONE, would argue this. A feat explicitly instructs you to add spells to your class list. And, after doing that, you argue that they're not on your class list. THAT is the sum of your argument.

And you wonder why we have trouble buying this load of hogwash?


As a note these are basically the same points that have been brought up before as I expected them to be.Yup. The applicable rules are the applicable rules. I need to cite no others. These are the relevant ones for the interaction between the feat and class feature.


I was saying that you were a bit unclear to me and appeared to me to be contradicting yourself. In any case see above.Contradicting ourselves? You're contradicting the RAW. Not implied, not inferred, you're directly contradicting the explicit RAW text.


Also the misinterpretation is even a point that was brought up before (albeit by a different person) so that is another point that has again been recycled.Yes. Both you and Biff have brought up similar misinterpreted points.

Let me ask you this, Olentu. What would a sorceror's spell list be?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-22, 06:48 AM
You would assume that Arcane Disciple adds spells to the general list of spells which you can learn and cast. However, that same feat goes on to state exactly what this entails. If they were added to your general list of spells, as you suggest, you could simply ignore the rest of the feat and instead learn and cast them just like any other spell on your list. This is not the case; they are not on the general list of spells which you can learn and cast, they are apart from that and your use of those spells is under a very limited allowance, all of which is explicitly described within the feat. That feat does not state anywhere that you can use other spells to emulate them, therefore you cannot.

You're approaching the books with an idea already in your head as to what you want the rules to say, and you're taking a single sentence completely out of its context and claiming that it accomplishes what you desire. This is not the case, Arcane Disciple grants nothing more than what is specifically described. The sentence which you continue to quote is not the feat's entire effect, otherwise the limitations on your use of those spells could be ignored. By your reasoning, one could conclude that Psionic Charge allows a character to fly, by taking a 90 degree turn from straight forward to straight up. This is not the case, a feat grants only what it specifically describes and nothing more, and Arcane Disciple is no exception.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-22, 07:08 AM
You would assume that Arcane Disciple adds spells to the general list of spells which you can learn and cast.

Because it says it does.


However, that same feat goes on to state exactly what this entails.

Which doesn't invalidate what it does say. WotC are notorious for explaining stuff redundantly. What it says you can do does not invalidate what it allows you to do but doesn't mention.


If they were added to your general list of spells, as you suggest, you could simply ignore the rest of the feat and instead learn and cast them just like any other spell on your list.

Wrong. Because the feat gives a limit on their casting. Which overrides that they're added to your list (which they are; it EXPLICITLY SAYS THAT. I have no clue why you are so persistently arguing against the explicit RAW).


This is not the case; they are not on the general list of spells which you can learn and cast, they are apart from that and your use of those spells is under a very limited allowance, all of which is explicitly described within the feat.

They are on your list, there is, separate from that, a limit on how often you can cast them. That doesn't make them not on your list.


That feat does not state anywhere that you can use other spells to emulate them, therefore you cannot.

Wrong. It doesn't explicitly say it but the rules allow it. Just because they bother to spell out some of the things the feat does does not remove the other things it does.


You're approaching the books with an idea already in your head as to what you want the rules to say, and you're taking a single sentence completely out of its context and claiming that it accomplishes what you desire.

No, I'm not. I know what I'm thinking a lot better than you.


This is not the case, Arcane Disciple grants nothing more than what is specifically described.

This is true. One of the things specifically described is what we need.


The sentence which you continue to quote is not the feat's entire effect, otherwise the limitations on your use of those spells could be ignored.

No, it is not. However, that sentence does allow the use of Shadow Illusion on Miracle, and there is nothing in the feat that explicitly removes that (as there IS an explicit removal of the ability to prepare more than one).


By your reasoning, one could conclude that Psionic Charge allows a character to fly, by taking a 90 degree turn from straight forward to straight up.

No, because Psionic Charge does not grant the ability to fly.

Arcane Disciple explicitly DOES add the spell to your list.


This is not the case, a feat grants only what it specifically describes and nothing more, and Arcane Disciple is no exception.

I know. And what it specifically describes is exactly what we need. Which is a happy coincidence, wouldn't you agree?

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-22, 07:21 AM
You would assume that Arcane Disciple adds spells to the general list of spells which you can learn and cast. However, that same feat goes on to state exactly what this entails. If they were added to your general list of spells, as you suggest, you could simply ignore the rest of the feat and instead learn and cast them just like any other spell on your list. This is not the case; they are not on the general list of spells which you can learn and cast, they are apart from that and your use of those spells is under a very limited allowance, all of which is explicitly described within the feat. That feat does not state anywhere that you can use other spells to emulate them, therefore you cannot.
Yes. It starts with: "Add these spells to your class list".
It continues with: "These restrictions apply."

That doesn't change the fact that they are explicitly added you your class list. Do you, in any way, dispute this?


You're approaching the books with an idea already in your head as to what you want the rules to say, and you're taking a single sentence completely out of its context and claiming that it accomplishes what you desire.I could say the same of you, right down to ignoring explicit RAW.

Or could you show me the part that says that they're considered domain spells, and not part of your class list? I've shown you, four times now, exactly where it says they ARE part of your class list. And all you can state is a completely fabricated (Read: MADE UP) set of definitions about how class spells for a wizard and wizard spells are different.


This is not the case, Arcane Disciple grants nothing more than what is specifically described.
Correct. Add spells to your class list. Use wisdom to determine DC and eligibility. No more than one per level per day.

But they follow ALL other rules as a wizard spell. They use wizard slots, not domain slots. They are arcane, not divine (as domain spells are standard). The rules say that they're class spells, and qualify exactly how you treat them differently. Other than how they state? You treat them the same.


The sentence which you continue to quote is not the feat's entire effect, otherwise the limitations on your use of those spells could be ignored. By your reasoning, one could conclude that Psionic Charge allows a character to fly, by taking a 90 degree turn from straight forward to straight up. This is not the case, a feat grants only what it specifically describes and nothing more, and Arcane Disciple is no exception.
Correct. The Psionic Charge Feat allows you to execute a 90 degree turn as part of a charge. If you also have leap attack, though, you can use it. Why? BECAUSE IT IS A CHARGE. You must still obey all rules of movement when using it.

The Arcane Disciple spell adds the spells to your class spell list. It may regulate how you may then cast those spells, but that does not change the fact that it adds the spells to your class list. You must still obey all rules for casting them (including the additional ones included), but it DOES add spells to your class list.

So I ask you this:

Does a character with the arcane disciple feat take a list of spells, and add them to his/her class list?

I also ask this: You state that I take "Benefit: Add the chosen domain’s spells to your class list of arcane spells" out of context.

I take it to mean, "the spells within a chosen domain are added to your class list of arcane spells. There are subsequent restrictions and modification to the standard rules you have to cast them, but they are part of your class list."

How is this not correct? And how on EARTH can you justify "Add these spells to your class list", under ANY context, to mean "these spells are not part of your class list"?

If you cannot support your claims on how (by RAW), I'm out of context, then I'll be forced to conclude you're arguing on opinion only, and have no intent to add any actual substance to the discussion.

Please, enlighten me. If you want to trash my view, at the very least, do me the courtesy of justifying your own. By RAW, if you would. I've had it up to here with opinions and fallacious viewpoints.

Face it. The rules say the exact OPPOSITE of what you're arguing. Yet you have your viewpoint, and you cling to it, regardless of what the truth may be. Regardless of whether or not I'm shoving a direct RAW contradiction to any point you make.

You have NOT satisfied the point that they're not part of your class list.
You have NOT provided any RAW justification for a wizard's "class spell list" and a "wizard spell list" possessed by a wizard being different in any way.
You have NOT provided any RAW justification for a difference between a "wizard spell" and a "spell (on the wizard's class list) cast through a wizard spell slot".

Provided you cannot justify SOMETHING up there, you have no RAW to stand on.

olentu
2010-02-23, 07:26 AM
Simple. Arcane Disciple is a rule which adds spells to a caster's class list.
Since the rule instructs you to add spells to a class list, class lists can obviously be altered.

As for "the spell list associated with the wizard class is the sorceror/wizard spell list". First, there are spells that are wizard only, that are not on that list. There are spells that are sorceror only, as well.

Basically? You can say whatever you like. You can say that dogs have a fly speed. That doesn't make it true. The spell list associated with the wizard class is (with minor exceptions for class specific spells), the sorceror/wizard spell list. This is the general rule.

The spell list associated with a wizard that has arcane disciple is (with minor exceptions for class specific spells), the sorceror/wizard spell list and additional spells belonging to a single domain. Why? Because the feat instructs you to add them to your class list. That makes them class spells.

I honestly can't believe that someone, ANYONE, would argue this. A feat explicitly instructs you to add spells to your class list. And, after doing that, you argue that they're not on your class list. THAT is the sum of your argument.

And you wonder why we have trouble buying this load of hogwash?

Yup. The applicable rules are the applicable rules. I need to cite no others. These are the relevant ones for the interaction between the feat and class feature.
Contradicting ourselves? You're contradicting the RAW. Not implied, not inferred, you're directly contradicting the explicit RAW text.
Yes. Both you and Biff have brought up similar misinterpreted points.

Let me ask you this, Olentu. What would a sorceror's spell list be?

Er I am saying they are added to the class list for the arcane class that is chosen it is just that I am also saying that the class list for the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list as it is from that list that wizards cast spells. I think I have said this before but if I have not and that fact is causing the confusion then please excuse my omission.

If you are going to get into the say whatever you like argument then I would ask you to give me a RAW quote that explicitly defines what a wizard spell is and its interaction with the also explicitly defined class spell list for the wizard class. If you are not going to pull out that explicit piece of text (that would quite possibly have already ended the discussion depending on how it is phrased) then you are also just saying whatever you want about what a wizard spell is just as you could say that pigs have a fly speed.


Also I am rather sure that you can not tell what I find or do not find sufficiently badly worded as to cause me some confusion. Really if you are going to say that you know what I am thinking then it does not lend much weight to your argument.

Well it would be the list from which they cast spells just like it would be for the wizard. So to the best of my knowledge it ends up being primarily the sorcerer/wizard spell list plus (assuming I am remembering the magic section of the PHB correctly) any new and unusual spells that they have gotten DM permission to take.


By the by I was talking about misunderstanding peoples posts not the rules but it seems that the misunderstanding runs deeper then I thought as it has again shown itself. Perhaps every block of text (such as this one) with the word misunderstanding in it will end up being a misunderstanding.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 07:42 AM
Er I am saying they are added to the class list for the arcane class that is chosen it is just that I am also saying that the class list for the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list as it is from that list that wizards cast spells. I think I have said this before but if I have not and that fact is causing the confusion then please excuse my omission.

It is. But Arcane Disciple only adds those spells to it for you.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-23, 07:42 AM
....Your class list is, initially, the default sorc/wizzie class list. Or the basic class list for whatever class you took up. Minus stuff you banned.

If you add other stuff to your class list, it does exactly what it says on the tin. You add it to your list. It then can be used(learned, prepared, cast, etc) exactly as can every other spell on that list.

This isn't complicated stuff here.

And by your list, I mean your list, and your list only. Because it says it affects YOUR list. Not everyone elses list. The other interpretation requires ignoring basic english, and results in breaking the entire concept of class spell lists. Therefore, it must be horribly wrong.

magic9mushroom
2010-02-23, 07:48 AM
....Your class list is, initially, the default sorc/wizzie class list. Or the basic class list for whatever class you took up. Minus stuff you banned.

If you add other stuff to your class list, it does exactly what it says on the tin. You add it to your list. It then can be used(learned, prepared, cast, etc) exactly as can every other spell on that list.

This isn't complicated stuff here.

And by your list, I mean your list, and your list only. Because it says it affects YOUR list. Not everyone elses list. The other interpretation requires ignoring basic english, and results in breaking the entire concept of class spell lists. Therefore, it must be horribly wrong.

^^Truth.aaa

olentu
2010-02-25, 07:16 AM
First please excuse the absence but real life does get in the way at times.

Look as I have said before repeating the same points that have been gone over several times in this thread is not likely going to change anything. I don't mind but so much but just so you know without something new nothing is likely to change.

Now to do a quick overview (and since it is quick and an overview may be imprecise so review of previous posts would give a more accurate description of my position) of the position that I have currently chosen to champion. If class list for the wizard class is the sorcerer/wizard spell list then added to class list for the wizard class is added to the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

As a note I do not find either position complicated and the fact that I am rather sure what both positions are and how they are derived is also why I am rather sure that they can not be reconciled.

By the by if you are going to attack my position on rules of english I would appreciate explicit specifics of how my position must always be wrong due to the rules of english and how the opposing position must always be correct by the same rules.


Also the schools that has been banned are not removed as far as I can tell. I say this because as far as I have seen the rules do not actually say to remove the spells from the spell list. It is just that they are defined to act in basically all ways as if they have been removed. I could of course be remembering incorrectly but as of yet no one has shown me any such rules.


In the end to reiterate saying the same things is unlikely to change the situation as they have not in the past despite repeated attempts. I don't mind but I also don't think it is going to work.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-26, 05:20 AM
If you are going to get into the say whatever you like argument then I would ask you to give me a RAW quote that explicitly defines what a wizard spell is and its interaction with the also explicitly defined class spell list for the wizard class. If you are not going to pull out that explicit piece of text (that would quite possibly have already ended the discussion depending on how it is phrased) then you are also just saying whatever you want about what a wizard spell is just as you could say that pigs have a fly speed.

Let's look:

Let's say that the wizard spell list is sorceror/wizard spells only.
Now let's say Arcane Disciple does what it says (adds spells to your spell list).

No matter what the list was before, those new spells are on it NOW. There is no possible way to argue that spells that have been added to your list are not on your list.

Let's say I have two teams. A dodgeball team and a basketball team. Let's say I have Billy. He's normally a basketball player, but, I add him to the dodgeball team.

What team is Billy on?
The dodgeball team. Because he was added to it.

Get the point?

As a note I do not find either position complicated and the fact that I am rather sure what both positions are and how they are derived is also why I am rather sure that they can not be reconciled.
They can easily be reconciled. All you must do is accept that things added to a list are on that list.

In related news: Sugar Cookies have sugar in them.

olentu
2010-02-28, 07:13 AM
Let's look:

Let's say that the wizard spell list is sorceror/wizard spells only.
Now let's say Arcane Disciple does what it says (adds spells to your spell list).

No matter what the list was before, those new spells are on it NOW. There is no possible way to argue that spells that have been added to your list are not on your list.

Let's say I have two teams. A dodgeball team and a basketball team. Let's say I have Billy. He's normally a basketball player, but, I add him to the dodgeball team.

What team is Billy on?
The dodgeball team. Because he was added to it.

Get the point?

They can easily be reconciled. All you must do is accept that things added to a list are on that list.

In related news: Sugar Cookies have sugar in them.

Well first off again please excuse the lateness of the reply and being as mi circumstances are I shall ask excuse for lateness that may occur in the future.

The billy example is not one I would find good since as I have said several times the things are being added to the list to which they are added by the feat (the specific list depending on the class chosen) and as such they appear on the list due to the action of the feat. For some reason it appears that no one believes me when I say that but that is what I am saying. In any case it is the properties of the list that really seems to be the point of disagreement but as this exchange is a repeat I doubt what I am saying will matter.



I do not believe the positions can be reconciled since if I understand your position then through that understanding I see no way in which they can. On the other hand if I do not understand you position then the two positions must be so alien to the other that it would likely be impossible for both positions to the understood at the same time by the human mind though obviously one could understand one or the other. So while the first seems more likely I am not ruling out the second as it seems that your side has argued in favor of some views, that my position is also in favor of, as counters to my position. One of them being that things that are added to a list are added to them.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-28, 07:19 AM
The billy example is not one I would find good since as I have said several times the things are being added to the list to which they are added by the feat (the specific list depending on the class chosen) and as such they appear on the list due to the action of the feat. For some reason it appears that no one believes me when I say that but that is what I am saying. In any case it is the properties of the list that really seems to be the point of disagreement but as this exchange is a repeat I doubt what I am saying will matter.
Yes, they are on the list because of the feat.

No, that does not matter in the least.

We're not looking at a spell that's on the list naturally. We're not looking at one on the list artificially.

If it's on your class list, it's a class spell.

It doesn't matter where or why. The above statement is universally true.

It could be added to your list by mutant turnips. Doesn't matter. It's on your list. That matters, and that is all that matters.

Any other thing that could possibly be said about WHY a spell is on your list? Is irrelevant to the issue. If it is on your class list for any reason at all, including, but not limited to, sourcebooks, house rules, feats, class features, and more, it is a class spell. Period. That's all.

So, you've stated that it's on your list because of a feat. That's a concession that it's on your list. Full stop.

It's a class spell. That's all.

Things that are added to a list become part of that list. That's all we need to know. Any other argument is smoke and mirrors, and attempts to distract from the truth. You are attempting to create an artificial restriction on class spells where none exists. If it goes in a wizard slot, and casts like a wizard spell...

Well, if it looks like poo, and smells like poo, I'm gonna scrape it off my shoe before walking inside, ya dig?

olentu
2010-03-04, 05:55 PM
Yes, they are on the list because of the feat.

No, that does not matter in the least.

We're not looking at a spell that's on the list naturally. We're not looking at one on the list artificially.

If it's on your class list, it's a class spell.

It doesn't matter where or why. The above statement is universally true.

It could be added to your list by mutant turnips. Doesn't matter. It's on your list. That matters, and that is all that matters.

Any other thing that could possibly be said about WHY a spell is on your list? Is irrelevant to the issue. If it is on your class list for any reason at all, including, but not limited to, sourcebooks, house rules, feats, class features, and more, it is a class spell. Period. That's all.

So, you've stated that it's on your list because of a feat. That's a concession that it's on your list. Full stop.

It's a class spell. That's all.

Things that are added to a list become part of that list. That's all we need to know. Any other argument is smoke and mirrors, and attempts to distract from the truth. You are attempting to create an artificial restriction on class spells where none exists. If it goes in a wizard slot, and casts like a wizard spell...

Well, if it looks like poo, and smells like poo, I'm gonna scrape it off my shoe before walking inside, ya dig?

Er have I been mistaken as someone who is arguing that the miracle trick does not work because that is very much not what I am doing. I mean seriously I had thought that I was clear on the matter but I suppose that I was not.



Though if you wish I can start a second argument where I argue against it working but as I would be arguing against myself that would be rather silly. However as the original argument has stalled, as I said that it probably would, a change of pace on the side would not be unpleasant though I would not expect anything to come of the side argument given that I would be arguing against the position I am already arguing for.