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Zergrusheddie
2010-02-18, 09:40 AM
Say that I cast a Major Image on a group of mooks. I make it seem as if there is a Wall of Iron blocking their paths. How would that work? Would they attack it and than immediately know it was false or would they have to make Will Saves for each attack to determine if it were false? I am seeing the power in Major Image but I am just wondering how the hell would you defend against a DM who just walks his army through it? :smallconfused:

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Douglas
2010-02-18, 09:52 AM
They would do whatever they would do for an actual Wall of Iron, unless they had the right skills and knowledge to suspect it might be an illusion. If that includes, say, leaning against it, the mook who leans against it gets a will save - if he fails, the spell tricks him into taking a position that actually supports itself despite the wall not really being there. If the mook instead takes a flying leap at the wall, he'll go right through and automatically disbelieve it, as will anyone who saw it happen.

Zergrusheddie
2010-02-18, 10:03 AM
So there is no way to stop the DM from just marching through it. :smallsigh:

Myou
2010-02-18, 10:03 AM
They would do whatever they would do for an actual Wall of Iron, unless they had the right skills and knowledge to suspect it might be an illusion. If that includes, say, leaning against it, the mook who leans against it gets a will save - if he fails, the spell tricks him into taking a position that actually supports itself despite the wall not really being there. If the mook instead takes a flying leap at the wall, he'll go right through and automatically disbelieve it, as will anyone who saw it happen.

I always understood that if he leans on it he falls through and sees it's fake without having to save. :smallconfused:

Otherwise how do you explain things like illusory stairs?

Cyclocone
2010-02-18, 10:13 AM
So there is no way to stop the DM from just marching through it. :smallsigh:

Instead of Wall of Iron, make it Wall of Rapists (or something else the enemy would conceivably refrain from), that way you can deny the enemies a save.

Of course, if the monster "just happens" to walk through the wall anyway, you should switch to Solid Fog (or pull your metagaming DM aside).

Douglas
2010-02-18, 10:14 AM
So there is no way to stop the DM from just marching through it. :smallsigh:
Aside from logic and out of game arguments, no. Only a very poor DM would automatically have all NPCs ignore such tricks in my opinion, though. If it's a particular group of NPCs that have training with such things and know they are pursuing an illusionist, then yeah I'd expect them to test it with some no-fail technique such as a flying leap, but normal mooks should assume it's real until proven otherwise without automatically attempting to produce such proof.


I always understood that if he leans on it he falls through and sees it's fake without having to save. :smallconfused:

Otherwise how do you explain things like illusory stairs?
This is in a borderline area. My interpretation is that any interaction where it seems plausible that someone could compensate for the illusory object's nonexistence without being ridiculously obvious about it gets a will save, while only interactions where such compensation is completely implausible get the automatic disbelief. With illusory stairs, if you try climbing them you're going to fall through unless you have some other means of support. If you have a Fly or Air walk spell active, I'd rule you unconsciously use that spell to "climb the stairs" if you fail the save. If you have the strength to support yourself entirely on the non-illusory hand railings without much effort, I might make you still roll the save but I'd give you a bonus. In normal circumstances, attempting to climb illusory stairs would automatically disbelieve them.

Kantolin
2010-02-18, 01:08 PM
Images aren't actually real, so yes - if so inclined to walk through walls, the bad guys could in fact do just that to your illusion.

I'd question how they knew it was illusory, though. If this keeps being a problem, then occasionally create real walls (Stone, for example, is a good one. Force works too). Just to mix things up.

Mixing up real and illusion is generally a potent plan.

Zom B
2010-02-18, 01:17 PM
IMO, Major Image is indeed one of the more powerful and versatile spells in the game.

If you do a good enough job with the description of the wall ("I make sure it has the same moss as can be found on the walls around it, complete with dust that has settled in the mortar"), then there should be no reason they would even want to lean against it, much less test it out.

To help with the need to create convincing illusions, we created Craft(Illusion) in our games, and it worked like this: The targets receive a Spot check against it. Success on their part means absolutely nothing, while failure on their part means that your illusion was crafted in a way that it convincingly looks out of the ordinary and so they have absolutely no reason to question or test it. It doesn't matter if the map they have in their hand shows a tunnel here and there is a wall instead, they do not question it. Basically, it works similarly to the way that "nondescript box" worked in Song and Silence.

Moglorosh
2010-02-18, 01:21 PM
If they're actively pursuing you and they see you throw up the wall, then they have no reason NOT to run up to the Wall of Iron and try to find a way around/through it. Make it a Prismatic Wall instead, that way they wouldn't dare touch it.

If they didn't see you throw it up, and aren't extremely familiar with the surroundings, then make it match the landscape rather than making it look like a Wall of Iron.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't make it look like a Wall of Iron.

erikun
2010-02-18, 01:36 PM
The most powerful way to use images is to prevent the enemy from interacting with them. An illusionary wall that you can see through provides 100% concealment against ranged attacks, no save unless the opponent walks up to it. Illusionary ceilings will hide literally anything unless the characters feel like climbing a wall to test it. An illusionary painting or clothing looks perfectly believable to anyone who doesn't touch it.

The second best options is to make it something they don't want to touch. Nobody in their right mind will charge through a cavern full of cacti. Most people won't be interested in poking a sleeping hydra, or even a sleeping guard dog. Disguising a door as just another stretch of hallway will mean most followers simply try another door, unless they are familiar with the area or searching every square inch.

And, of course, anyone who interacts with an illusion and fails their save treats it as real. Charging into an illusionary stone wall and failing the save will deal damage/knock you prone. Stepping on illusionary caltrops slows movement. Wading through illusionary quicksand will slow creatures down. Getting eaten by an illusionary dragon hurts. Anything that would be physically impossible, such as walking up illusionary stairs of sliding across an illusionary floor, will automatically fail and automatically save, so make sure you avoid these situations. (Well, unless you want them to waste time trying to climb an illusionary set of stairs.)

Beorn080
2010-02-18, 01:55 PM
Could call up a Blade Barrier. That would give you the chance to run, since no one is gonna want to take a flying leap at one of those.

If the DM is pulling flying leap tricks, throw up the fake wall of iron, and drop a portable hole behind it. Bonus points if you've used those magical finger paints to make it 500 feet deep with a small kitchen/butcher shop attached to the bottom through a door. Goblin jumps through, Mittens come out.

Zergrusheddie
2010-02-18, 02:28 PM
The main reason I bring it up is because of Binders. Haures grants the ability to use Major Image at will and I was thinking that using it in conjunction with Zceryll's Summon Alien it could be nasty. Summon Monsters, Bolt of Madness, use Major Image for Battlefield Control (encasing enemies in a block of ice), Phantasmal Killer, Melee Attack, and Summon Monster would seem to be a nice combo but if there is no real way to make Major Image a Battlefield Control by saying "Will Save or think you can do nothing", then it is mostly not possible.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

sonofzeal
2010-02-18, 02:51 PM
My interpretation, and I realize it's not quite spelled out this way in the RAW, but....

- Silent image gets cast, everyone sees a wall, nobody gets a saving throw.

- Somebody leans on the wall, they fall through and everyone gets a saving throw.

- If the saving throw succeeds, they can (by force of will) see through; if they fail, they may mentally recognize it as an illusion but still perceive it as solid.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-18, 03:45 PM
To help with the need to create convincing illusions, we created Craft(Illusion) in our games, and it worked like this: The targets receive a Spot check against it. Success on their part means absolutely nothing, while failure on their part means that your illusion was crafted in a way that it convincingly looks out of the ordinary and so they have absolutely no reason to question or test it. It doesn't matter if the map they have in their hand shows a tunnel here and there is a wall instead, they do not question it. Basically, it works similarly to the way that "nondescript box" worked in Song and Silence.

Personally, I would just use Spellcraft to "craft" your illusion "spell". Or maybe an appropriate Knowledge check to see if they can properly visualize the illusion (assuming they don't have anything on hand to "copy", like a stretch of wall).



The real answer to the question of what happens when you encounter an illusionary wall, however, depends on what kind of illusion it is, because there are different types with different effects.

Major image is a figment, which means it creates false sensory data. According to the spell's description, you can create visual, audio, olfactory, and thermal illusions. You can't create tactile sensations, so if you try to touch the illusionary wall you won't feel anything. In this case, any direct physical interaction with the wall automatically disproves the illusion for the character touching it and anyone else who sees him pass his hand through. Unless he has a running start, though, he'd first get a saving throw for simply studying the area (assuming the wall appears out of place or he sees you create it; preexisting illusions that blend in to their surrounding won't necessarily get studied closely enough).

Anyone who studies the area and makes their save will be able to discern the illusion as a translucent outline. Telling others about the illusion grants them a save with a +4 bonus.

Again, major image is an illusion (figment). This means it looks the same to everyone. It also means that while you can create illusionary sounds, you can't affect existing sounds (as you could with a glamer), so you can't have sounds become muffled by passing through the wall. It isn't a pattern, so it isn't mind-affecting. Nor is it a shadow, so it isn't partially real (and thus can't deal any damage).

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 03:47 PM
I rather like Invisible Metamagic when fighting see invisibility enemies with Major image.

The true image is that there is Wall. You are less likely to disbelief when you think the wall was just hidden by magic.

TheOOB
2010-02-18, 03:47 PM
With a large enough group an illusionary wall of iron would only slow them down, someone will touch it, and once they do the group will go through. Still it will slow them down. Illusion walls work best when you are running down a hall, turning corners, and then you turn a corner unseen by your pursuers and fill the gap with a wall so they just run past, that or you, as noted, make the illusion of something like a wall of fire that they won't go past.

ericgrau
2010-02-18, 03:50 PM
They only get a will save if they interact with it or examine it closely. Since you are casting it right in front of them where they want to go, they will probably take a good look at it and get a save. If you cast major image ahead of time on a side passage so that the fake wall matches the neighboring wall, they might walk right past it without ever getting a save. If the mooks would touch a real wall of iron, then they will also touch your illusory wall of iron and will immediately know it is fake whether they made their initial save or not.

Zom B
2010-02-18, 03:53 PM
One of my favorite tricks was to create a major image and have one of the cubes be on my naked gnome to create an illusion of clothes. If they disbelieve the wall, they disbelieve the clothes as well.

Gwahahahahaha.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-18, 04:07 PM
One of my favorite tricks was to create a major image and have one of the cubes be on my naked gnome to create an illusion of clothes. If they disbelieve the wall, they disbelieve the clothes as well.

Gwahahahahaha.

What?? :smallconfused:

Wouldn't that require you to be naked in the first place? Are you just naked all the time, or what? Seems awfully involved for just a prank. But then again, gnome....

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-18, 11:34 PM
If I use an Image spell to make a raptoran think his wings are bound, if he fail his save would he fall to the ground?

Townopolis
2010-02-18, 11:50 PM
depends on the DM, but at least some will rule that the raptoran will pull his wings in as the illusory bonds tighten and stop flying. Thus, yes, he will fall... depending on you DM (just look at this thread, it really depends on who you're gaming with).

ericgrau
2010-02-18, 11:51 PM
If I use an Image spell to make a raptoran think his wings are bound, if he fail his save would he fall to the ground?

That would have to involve a tactile (feel) illusion, which don't exist AFAIK. The creature would feel that his wings are free and the spell would automatically fail. Heck he might not even notice the visual portion.

I suppose if you could make him feel like his wings were bound it depends on his response to being bound. Most, but not all, creatures would stop flapping. Some might flap violently.