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craverguy
2010-02-18, 09:57 AM
In D&D 3.0 or 3.5, were the rules for a living PC or NPC becoming a lich ever explicitly published? And if so, in which book would I find them?

BRC
2010-02-18, 09:58 AM
Check the "Lich" Entry in MMI

hamishspence
2010-02-18, 10:00 AM
They weren't, as far as I can tell. Dragon Magazine, in the Birth of the Dead article, mentioned it in a bit more detail- but still not that much.

The MM describes what's needed, but not the process.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 10:01 AM
They weren't, as far as I can tell. Dragon Magazine, in the Birth of the Dead article, mentioned it in a bit more detail- but still not that much.

The MM describes what's needed, but not the process.

Because it is "unspeakable"!
Designers still laugh about that pun I bet.

Cyclocone
2010-02-18, 10:03 AM
Savage Species' Savage Progression.

It exists for liches. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)

bosssmiley
2010-02-18, 10:05 AM
Didn't Liber Mortis reheat the Lich-ification process from the 2E Van Richten's Guide to Liches (as near to canon as was ever published)?

hamishspence
2010-02-18, 10:09 AM
Not as far as I can tell.

craverguy
2010-02-18, 10:14 AM
As far as I can tell (and take that for what it's worth, because I've been exposed to extremely little of 3rd Edition), the only place it was given any hard-and-fast rules was in Heroes of Horror. The rule is: Dread Necromancers achieve lichdom automatically at Level 20. That's it.

Although mention is made about how Dread Necromancers don't have to sacrifice any XP or pay any money for their phylactery, which sort of implies others do.

hamishspence
2010-02-18, 10:17 AM
MM does provide XP cost and price for the phylactery (needs Craft Wondrous Item to make)- its just it mentions other things as well, which aren't described.

Libris Mortis has sample liches running all the way down to 11th level Adept.

craverguy
2010-02-18, 10:22 AM
The only place I've ever seen the whole procedure (the spells needed to make the phylactery, the recipe for the potion you need to take before you make the phylactery, the percentage table for outcomes of the ritual, the works) was in the Encyclopedia Magica, Vol. I, way back in 2nd Edition. Of course, it's not really applicable to 3rd Edition, because two of the four spells needed for the ritual don't even exist any more (at least, in Core).

hamishspence
2010-02-18, 10:26 AM
whatever the process, 3.5 ed made it less taxing- any spellcaster with a caster level of 11 or more can do it.

Hmm- I wonder if an Assassin Lich, or Blackguard Lich, would be an interesting break in the tradition of them being slightly squishy, high-power casters?

kamikasei
2010-02-18, 10:27 AM
To become a lich, you have to make yourself a phylactery. That has costs in gold and XP. This is the mechanical cost you pay to get the mechanical benefit of the template. The player and DM can work together to come up with whatever explanation they like of what the gold's being spent on and what the "unspeakably evil" process entails.

Cyclocone
2010-02-18, 10:29 AM
As far as I can tell (and take that for what it's worth, because I've been exposed to extremely little of 3rd Edition), the only place it was given any hard-and-fast rules was in Heroes of Horror. The rule is: Dread Necromancers achieve lichdom automatically at Level 20. That's it.

Although mention is made about how Dread Necromancers don't have to sacrifice any XP or pay any money for their phylactery, which sort of implies others do.

CustServ claims that it doesn't actually make you a lich, only an undead that isn't a lich, but has the abilities of a lich ... or something.

I have no idea what they were getting at, and (since it's CustServ) chances are they haven't either.:smallsigh:

BooNL
2010-02-18, 10:31 AM
whatever the process, 3.5 ed made it less taxing- any spellcaster with a caster level of 11 or more can do it.

Hmm- I wonder if an Assassin Lich, or Blackguard Lich, would be an interesting break in the tradition of them being slightly squishy, high-power casters?

Duskblade lich?

hmmz....

Melamoto
2010-02-18, 10:35 AM
Savage Species' Savage Progression.

It exists for liches. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)

It also adds another note about lycanthropes on that page, which states:


Thus, in addition to the levels offered via the appropriate lycanthrope template class, each kind of lycanthrope also has a separate (optional) class progression for his animal abilities. Essentially, a character progressing as a lycanthrope multiclasses into the template class and can also multiclass into the appropriate animal class if desired.

The animal class is entirely optional. No would-be lycanthrope is required to take it, but doing so is an advantage, since a character without it is weaker than other lycanthropes of the same type. Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class gives the character the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the tiger's rake). Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes one level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired. The animal class, like the template class, does not count when determining whether a character takes an XP penalty for multiclassing.

So basically you can take Lycanthrope LA without the animal HD. While you miss out on the animal abilities, including pounce (The main reason people like Weretiger), this is a quite interesting for certain optimizers.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 10:38 AM
whatever the process, 3.5 ed made it less taxing- any spellcaster with a caster level of 11 or more can do it.

Hmm- I wonder if an Assassin Lich, or Blackguard Lich, would be an interesting break in the tradition of them being slightly squishy, high-power casters?

Don't forget Ranger and Pally liches. Yeah, the Pally would fall when he becomes a Lich, but he could.

hamishspence
2010-02-18, 10:42 AM
Unearthed Arcana evil paladins would have no problem though.

Liches which break the stereotype could make for an interesting change of pace.

Perhaps an archer ranger with all the best archery spells?

Gerrtt
2010-02-18, 10:45 AM
It would have to take place in an epic level game though for a ranger or pally to become a Lich, as their caster level is half their level.

Unless there are different rules for caster level when it comes to crafting the phylactery, my guess is no.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-18, 10:47 AM
It would have to take place in an epic level game though for a ranger or pally to become a Lich, as their caster level is half their level.

Unless there are different rules for caster level when it comes to crafting the phylactery, my guess is no.

Practiced Spellcaster: adds +4

An Level 14 Pally with PS = caster 11 (7 +4=11).

You take Mystic Fire Knight (I think that right one) substitution for +2 caster so you can do this at 12th level, but not many know about that one.

Gerrtt
2010-02-18, 10:48 AM
True enough.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-18, 04:24 PM
Too bad Warlocks can't become Liches. Hmm... maybe a Wizard/Warlock/Eldritch Thuerge Lich? Sad that undead can't use Hellfire.... :smallsigh:

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 04:52 PM
whatever the process, 3.5 ed made it less taxing- any spellcaster with a caster level of 11 or more can do it.

Hmm- I wonder if an Assassin Lich, or Blackguard Lich, would be an interesting break in the tradition of them being slightly squishy, high-power casters?

You need to bump caster level to that. So take Practiced Manifester. Unfortunately caster level doesn't help nearly as much for an Assassin or a Blackguard so this isn't ideal from an optimization perspective since you are burning one of a very limited number of feats. A Blackguard can do this then when they are a 7th level blackguard (7+4=11), but other methods may also be used to push the level. So this becomes minimally doable at level 13 (assuming they enter blackguard as early as possible) which is only 2 levels after a straight wizard. One could if one used other bumps to caster level possibly push this down further.

I really like this idea.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-18, 05:33 PM
Too bad Warlocks can't become Liches.

Sure they can. They have a caster level and can create magic items. No problem.

hewhosaysfish
2010-02-18, 06:30 PM
Because it is "unspeakable"!
Designers still laugh about that pun I bet.

I said not to mention unspeakable. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F015.jpg)

craverguy
2010-02-18, 06:31 PM
CustServ claims that it doesn't actually make you a lich, only an undead that isn't a lich, but has the abilities of a lich ... or something.

I have no idea what they were getting at, and (since it's CustServ) chances are they haven't either.:smallsigh:
I think we can safely ignore that statement, since it's flatly contradicted in no less than three places in the class description:

1. Under "Class Features," the second-to-last item on the list is "Craft Wondrous Item." Why? Because, "This helps her prepare the phylactery required to become a lich."

2. Again under "Class Features," the last item on the list is "Lich Transformation" (note the lack of any qualifiers on the word "lich" there). The description: "When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich." Fairly unambiguous wording there.

3. Finally, under "Playing a Dread Necromancer," the book states thusly: "If your career continues as planned, you will survive forever as a lich."

Now, I can understand a bit of leeway in the interpretation if the wording is fudged a bit, but there's no way anyone could read the class description honestly and not see the clear intent.

Yora
2010-02-18, 06:34 PM
It would have to take place in an epic level game though for a ranger or pally to become a Lich, as their caster level is half their level.
Same with Assassins and Blackguard, which only have 10 non-epic levels and can't get CL 11th pre-epic.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 07:00 PM
Same with Assassins and Blackguard, which only have 10 non-epic levels and can't get CL 11th pre-epic.

Are you sure? Where does it say that for the Blackguard? I'm looking in the SRD right now and I don't see it. Moreover, if that were the case blackguards would run into problems since they'd not be able to cast their 4th level spells. I don't think this is true for either Assassins or Blackguards.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-18, 07:19 PM
Same with Assassins and Blackguard, which only have 10 non-epic levels and can't get CL 11th pre-epic.

Doesn't practiced spellcaster help with that?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 07:21 PM
Doesn't practiced spellcaster help with that?

That only adds 4 levels so you'd only get 9th caster level. But I'm pretty sure that blackguard casts at full class level. See my earlier remark.

Kish
2010-02-18, 07:29 PM
No prestige class can have a class level of 11 pre-epic. A cleric/blackguard or wizard/assassin, on the other hand...

Myou
2010-02-18, 07:34 PM
That only adds 4 levels so you'd only get 9th caster level. But I'm pretty sure that blackguard casts at full class level. See my earlier remark.

SRD confirmed. :smallwink:

Dvandemon
2010-02-18, 07:47 PM
Don't forget Ranger and Pally liches. Yeah, the Pally would fall when he becomes a Lich, but he could.

Not if the pally was a Deathless lich or, if an elf, a baelnorn

Splendor
2010-02-18, 07:50 PM
AD&D Monster Manual
In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.

Encyclopedia Magica, Vol 1 pg 61
Magic Jar, Trap the soul, enchant an item, Nulathoe’s ninemen
2 drops arsenic
1 drop belladonna
1 quart yearling unicorn blood (slain by wyvern venom)
1 quart demihuman blood (slain by phase spider)
1 quart vampire blood
1 humanoid heart (slain by arsenic and belladonna)
Reproductive glands from 7 giant moths
1 pint phase spider venom
1 pint wyvern venom

Mix under the light of a full moon and drink within seven days, and if you live then you can start on your phylactery.

Other
There was another one somewhere that had Larvae (you got them from Hags in hell) that you had to eat but I couldn’t find that one.

Dragon Magazine 336 pg 43 - only additions to MM in 3.5 I could find
Discovering the proper formulas and incantations to create a phylactery requires a DC 35 Knowledge (Arcane) or Knowledge (Religion) check. This check requires d4 full months of research.

Yzzyx
2010-02-18, 07:54 PM
No prestige class can have a class level of 11 pre-epic.

A couple (necrocarnate is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) do. Not that that's relevent, I just like being pedantic.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 08:12 PM
A couple (necrocarnate is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) do. Not that that's relevent, I just like being pedantic.

Huh? How does that work? Are you sure you don't mean True Necromancer which has 15 levels in its non-epic form?

craverguy
2010-02-18, 08:44 PM
AD&D Monster Manual
In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.

Encyclopedia Magica, Vol 1 pg 61
Magic Jar, Trap the soul, enchant an item, Nulathoe’s ninemen
2 drops arsenic
1 drop belladonna
1 quart yearling unicorn blood (slain by wyvern venom)
1 quart demihuman blood (slain by phase spider)
1 quart vampire blood
1 humanoid heart (slain by arsenic and belladonna)
Reproductive glands from 7 giant moths
1 pint phase spider venom
1 pint wyvern venom

Mix under the light of a full moon and drink within seven days, and if you live then you can start on your phylactery.
Unfortunately, both those rituals are useless in 3rd Edition. The Enchant an Item and Nulathoe's Ninemen spells no longer exist.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-18, 08:47 PM
AD&D Monster Manual
In order to become a lich, the wizard must prepare its phylactery by the use of the enchant an item, magic jar, permanency and reincarnation spells. The phylactery, which can be almost any manner of object, must be of the finest craftsmanship and materials with a value of not less than 1,500 gold pieces per level of the wizard. Once this object is created, the would-be lich must craft a potion of extreme toxicity, which is then enchanted with the following spells: wraithform, permanency, cone of cold, feign death, and animate dead. When next the moon is full, the potion is imbibed. Rather than death, the potion causes the wizard to undergo a transformation into its new state. A system shock survival throw is required, with failure indicating an error in the creation of the potion which kills the wizard and renders him forever dead.


The thing that stands out for me about this one is how distinctly non-evil this is, other than risking your own death there doesn't seem to be anything about it that's ethically or morally tricky.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 08:51 PM
The thing that stands out for me about this one is how distinctly non-evil this is, other than risking your own death there doesn't seem to be anything about it that's ethically or morally tricky.

Well, except that becoming undead is icky, and we all know that icky means evil.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-18, 08:52 PM
i beg to differ. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) I just love to play with fire!

craverguy
2010-02-18, 08:53 PM
Actually, the other one isn't particularly evil, either. Sure, it involves using lots of poisons and blood and other body parts from beings killed by poison, but there's no rule that says that you have to have arranged for the poisonings, nor even any sort of time limit on the use of the organs that might force your hand. Realistically, you could just pay someone to rob a grave or two (a bad act, surely, but not one of unspeakable evil).

Splendor
2010-02-18, 09:01 PM
Ones that might be evil
1 quart yearling unicorn blood (slain by wyvern venom)
While I'm pretty sure you're going to have to set this one up yourself, there is always the "I won the lotto" chance you wouldn't have to.

1 quart demihuman blood (slain by phase spider)
You do need some phase spider venom anyway, maybe one of your henchmen dies while trying to capture/kill it.

1 humanoid heart (slain by arsenic and belladonna)
1) So after years of working with the local guard I finally came across what I was looking for.
2) So I killed the evil necromancer with a poison made of arsenic and belladonna, is that any eviler then killing him with a 3' long metal sword?

olentu
2010-02-18, 09:17 PM
2) So I killed the evil necromancer with a poison made of arsenic and belladonna, is that any eviler then killing him with a 3' long metal sword?

Yes. (I assume it does ability damage if not then no)

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 09:19 PM
i beg to differ. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19527634/Tome_of_Necromancy) I just love to play with fire!

Did you run out of Detect Sarcasm uses for today?

Kish
2010-02-19, 12:01 PM
A couple (necrocarnate is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) do. Not that that's relevent, I just like being pedantic.

Huh? How does that work? Are you sure you don't mean True Necromancer which has 15 levels in its non-epic form?
To my admittedly limited knowledge, "no prestige class can reach level 11 without the character being epic-level" is an invariant law. Do these prestige classes specifically say, "You can reach level 11 without being epic"? Or do they just list 15+ levels?

hamishspence
2010-02-19, 12:19 PM
The epic handbook states that to advance beyond 10th in a ten level prestige class, requires that you be epic.

It says nothing about prestige classes that are more then ten levels, though.

The DMG is phrased exactly the same way.

So, I think the rules are, that you don't have to be epic, to be an 11th, 12th, 13th, or 14th level True Necromancer- since the levels are provided in the class- it is not a "ten level prestige class"

(True Necromancer, in Libris Mortis, has 14 levels. Necrocarnate, in Magic of Incarnum, has 13 levels).

Shnezz
2010-02-19, 12:26 PM
Uh... 3.5 had rules for Dread Necromancers, which have a class feature for turning into a lich automatically at level 20 if you made your phylactery at lvl 19. Don't know otherwise.

hamishspence
2010-02-19, 12:31 PM
Its written as if you automatically create the phylactery at 20th level (since you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat at 19th level if you don't already have it.)

It states "you need not pay gold or XP to create the phylactery" and also states that if you are not humanoid, you do not gain the Lich Transformation class feature at 20th level.