[Base Class] Oriental meets Occidental – The Engetsu Shinobi (not Anime or OA)

[Damon_Caskey]

A while back I posted my Engetsu Shinobi class concept here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31610&highlight=engetsu). But with work, Real life, other projects like this (http://www.lavalit.com), and being more of an jockish outdoors guy then a D&D type I let it lapse big time. WoTC eventually archived and then removed the class.

Recently I got a couple of emails asking if I could re post. As it happens, I got sick of having to operate within the constraints of another forum and simply started a wiki to throw my crap into. I just needed some time to get things typed up. So here you are:

The Engetsu Shinobi (http://www.caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Engetsu_Shinobi)

Unfortunately, the I seem to have misplaced my archives of the custom feats (there were well over 100 of them), PRCs of the class, and a write up on its clan background. Those will have to come later. For now, I hope the base class will do. Please feel free to critique and comment, and to use my wiki for your own fantasy work if you like.

I would like to mention however, the Engetsu tends to cause sticker shock. If you merely glace over, it will probably appear grossly overpowered. Rest assured it has been put through paces by far more capable players then I. Admittedly that isn't hard to do, I haven't picked up a die in almost 10 years and wasn't a serious player even then. Point is, people who ARE dedicated players found the class to be well within reason. That's not to say it's beyond critiques by any means... just that it's beyond knee jerk responses.

The class is mostly unchanged since I last posted it, but there have been some minor additions to address a common critique of having a small gap at high level and no capstone. The features Lunar Blue and Lunar Eclipse hopefully close up the holes and add some flavorful functionality.

Thanks for your time and happy gaming,
DC

[Realms of Chaos]

...Not to take the wind from your sails or anything but exactly what part of this would people think is overpowered?

It's like the monk except with half-caster advancement, half sneak attack advancement, full BAB instead of flurry of blows, and a few stealth based abilities. The potential for full armor proficiencies plus your Int modifier is a bit alarming but that's the only problem I could possibly percieve. :smallconfused:

[Damon_Caskey]

You aren't taking wind out of my sails... I don't think it's overpowered and put forth quite a bit of effort to ensure it wasn't while maintaining the feature set.

But the array of abilities tends to cause as I put it before "Sticker Shock" when reviewed. The biggest issues cited are Full AB + Spells + Sneak Attack derivative. There also tends to be some knee jerk assumptions about the special features as well.

A common example is claiming the player could take a dip for Lunar Crust and max out int to get insane AC. But that isn't possible since the AC is limited by class level.

Another one is just assuming it is a Monk derivative, except "better" and therefore by definition overpowered. That one makes me scratch my head for a couple of reasons. First, calling a class overpowered because it is stronger then a Monk is a joke that goes without saying. Besides that, the Engetsu is nothing like a Monk at all. The only traits it shares with the Monk are an AC and Unarmed Attack bonus; both of which are thematically and mechanically different then the Monk's anyway:

AC Bonus:

Monk AC:


Wisdom bonus - Final bonus unlimited
Untyped
Works when flatfooted
Doesn't work with armor

Lunar Crust:


Int modifier - Final bonus limited by class level
Typed as insight
Lost when flatfooted
Works with armor (bonus reduced by armor penalty)


Unarmed Capability:

Monk Unarmed Strike:


Extra dice progression
Flurry of blows
Ki Strike (enhancement bonus)
Ki Strike (material emulation)

Lunar Fist:


1/4 class level insight damage bonus


If anything it's a Ranger derivative; I started by using the Ranger as a template and went from there. Thanks for giving it a once over!

DC

[Realms of Chaos]

Yeah, making a "superior monk" doesn't really raise any eyebrows around here. This is different enough that it doesn't seem to make the monk completely obsolete so I'm good.

Although there is no knee-jerk reaction, however, there are some notes. First of all, this thing actually seems to suffer less from MAD than an average monk, relying only on Int/Con/Str as opposed to the Monk's Wis/Str/Dex/Con.

Although it seems that this guy is meant to use a dexterity a bit as well (and there are advantages to doing so, such as with your initiative-based abilities), I'm not really seeing that. So long as your Intelligence is high, you can start with heavy armor.
This said, your Dex isn't needed for AC (heavy armor imposes limits), Reflex save (which is already impressive), or Initiative (lunar alacrity/Improved initiative accomplishes that). If converting pre-pathfinder material, you could even use insightful reflexes from complete adventurer to make Dexterity even less important.

That said, the one thing that kind of bugs me about this class is that a level 20 Shinobi could easily have all of the protective items and armor of other classes and get a hefty insight bonus on top of that (mithral armor reduces the armor check penalty by a bunch). You have, in short, made the highest-AC base class in existance. :smallconfused:
Combining incredible AC with Improved Reflexes (to stop area effects) makes for a pretty powerful defense. A good will save and immunity to emotional control helps protect you as well. In fact, the only chink in your armor is your poor fortitude saves.
I'm honestly not sure how unbalanced this uber-AC makes this character, however.

Have you ever heard of the 3.5 Factotum base class, by chance? This class really resembles the Factotum far more than it does the ranger. The factotum gains inspiration points spent to heal, gain bonuses to rolls, cast wizard spells, gain bonuses to AC, make sneak attacks, and much more. Furthermore, both the factotum and your engetsu shinobi are Intelligence-based, have 6+Int skill points per level, and have good Ref and Will saves.
The Factotum is "better" than your class in most ways, I'm afraid. It can spend inspiration points to eventually cast up to 7th level spells, take extra actions, save itself from death, gain class features of other classes, ignore spell resistance and damage reduction, and so on. Plus, the Factotum has all skills as class skills.
Your class has a few advantages, mind you (better BAB, better at longer conflicts, more spells per day, your AC bonus works with all armor) but the Factotum still wins out unless there's some combo I'm missing here.

[Damon_Caskey]

I see your point on the armor, but it doesn't worry me too much. Mostly because even with Mithril armor, you are still dealing with a spell failure chance. Just enough to always nail you at the worst times. And at level 20, you aren't contributing if you aren't making use of your spells. There are probably feats to counter this (IIRC, some of my custom feats that got lost did so). But even then I'm not worried. The Engetsu is a very feat hungry class.

I wanted the capability to put on armor to allow functional disguises and buck the stupid stereotype of "the ninjaz must be nekkkied!!!". But in game, an armored Engetsu at high level play is wasting his time. All he's really done is made himself into a poor man's Paladin with more speed and a few parlor tricks.

Never heard of the Factotum. My only source is the SRD, and just in the last few weeks, the Pathfinder SRD. I first created the Engetsu back in 2006. Maybe the Factorim wasn't around then.

Honestly though, it sounds kinda of silly to me in concept. "Today I think I can do such and such...". The Engetsu is meant to convey the concept of a hard core self reliant type who's prepared for anything, not some shmuck who thinks up an ability he wants and it just happens.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by better. If you mean quality, I guess that's subjective and I'd like to see the Factorim to compare. I'd hope the quality is better, since those guys are professionals and to me this isn't even a dedicated hobby. If you mean in power or capability... meh, I really don't care. I mean, a Wizard is far more powerful then the Engetsu (and pretty much everything else) as far as that goes, but that doesn't mean players want to be a Wizard all the time.

I just added another minor feature: "Lunar Shades". Should make for some more fun "ninja" theatrics. Now I'm looking for something to stick in the 16th level as it is the only one without a feature. It's not a dead level given spell casting and scaling abilities, so whatever I put in there (if anything) would have to be minor.

DC

[Realms of Chaos]

Sorry.

when I said better, I was trying to say that it was a higher power level than this. This guy has some amazing trick mind you but the factotum (which spends points spontaneously in the middle of combat) has been proved to make several classes irrelevant and has been broken in the past.

Of course, it's not a bad thing that your material loses out to something so easily broken but the point (I was trying to make) stands.

Also, in 3.5 (Book of Exalted Deeds) is an armor quality called twilight, one that reduces spell failure and stacks with mithral armor. You might be unable to go with full plate armor with your build but I'd end up with higher AC than everybody else and with no Arcane spell failure.

In short, this class quickly becomes more powerful than intended when you start converting 3.5 material from non-SRD sources into Pathfinder (insightful reflexes, the twilight armor ability, etc.)
Most people design their classes to take into account most ways that they could potentially be broken but given your limited access, this class is amazingly balanced. :smallbiggrin:

[Damon_Caskey]

In short, this class quickly becomes more powerful than intended when you start converting 3.5 material from non-SRD sources into Pathfinder (insightful reflexes, the twilight armor ability, etc.)
Most people design their classes to take into account most ways that they could potentially be broken but given your limited access, this class is amazingly balanced. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you. That's good point too about alternate materials, but I don't think anyone, professional or otherwise can be expected to accommodate everything out there. Especially considering much of it may come well after your work. All you can do is try to set your math up so that there are no gaping holes or formula exploits. After all when it comes down to it, Splatbooks are just house rules that you pay for.

In any case, it still doesn't worry me that much. First, someone would have to convert that material, or convert the Engetsu back to D&D. Let's assume they did either and went on a defensive rampage to uber up the Engetsu's AC. Well congrats. But as you well know, by the time they pull this off, AC absolutely matters for squat. So you can fend off direct attack. What else can you do? Maybe the party's Fighter might be little jealous, but I doubt their resident Cleric and Wizard will be too impressed. The class got put through its paces long ago by the maniacs over at WoTC Optimizing boards; none of them could really find anything to break it with.

Now to be fair, that was two years ago. Since then I converted to Pathfinder (well, like two weeks ago), and added Lunar Embrace, Lunar Blue, and Lunar Eclipse. But then again it's also had some minor power downs too.

In other words, the numbers might wind up being more then what I intended, but I don't believe it won't be enough to let you break the game or take away other people's fun. To me that's all that counts.

I should probably add too, that I only just converted to Pathfinder so as not to have the Engetsu on a defunct system (yes, IMO 3.5 is defunct; its only a matter of time before only a small niche cares about it). I don't really like much of what I see with 4'th edition. Nothing I hate really, but I've never actually played it and probably never will. What little time I do give D&D all goes to designing things, and from what I see there isn't a hole lot you can do with it 4th in that respect. Thus why Engetsu is now a Pathfinder class.

DC

[Damon_Caskey]

Couple of updates. Pared down some of the fluff and updated format to match current style. Couple of features got a slight tune; Lunar Shades now scales instead of giving a flat 20%.

Some other minor clean ups from the conversion to Pathfinder. Still need to retype feats and variants.

[Damon_Caskey]

Ugh, finally got some feats retyped. The original list was well into the 70's but got pruned by Wizard's before I could transfer to my own wiki. I thought I had a backup, but cannot locate it. Worse, I can't remember the feats themselves at all. Instead I'm having to recreate the ideas from scratch and tool them to the Pathfinder conversion.

What I have done so far is here (http://caskeys.com/arc/fantasy/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Engetsu_Shinobi_Class_Fea ts). I have many more to be typed in, and am always open to suggestions.

Then it's onto the variants & prestige classes...

DC