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View Full Version : [3.5] What caster PrCs require dropping schools or specialising?



Myou
2010-02-18, 11:35 AM
How many caster PrCs require the entrant to drop one or more schools, become a specialist, or specialise in a second school? I've never played a specialist so I haven't payed attention in the past.

The ones I know of so far:
-Incantatrix (ban an extra school)
-Red Wizard (be a specialist and ban an extra school)
-Master Specialist (be a specialist)
-Focused specialist (be a specialist and ban an extra school)

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 11:36 AM
How many caster PrCs require the entrant to drop one or more schools, become a specialist, or specialise in a second school? I've never played a specialist so I haven't payed attention in the past.

The ones I know of so far:
-Incantatrix (specialise in Abjuration)

master specialist from cMAge

red wizard of they

Myou
2010-02-18, 11:40 AM
master specialist from cMAge

red wizard of they

MS just requires being specialised to enter, right?

lsfreak
2010-02-18, 11:40 AM
Incanatrix doesn't require specialization, but requires you to give up a school. Red Wizard requires both specialization, and to give up another school. Master Specialist requires specialization.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 11:44 AM
MS just requires being specialised to enter, right?

ya... mabye i misunderstood the thread?

Myou
2010-02-18, 11:51 AM
Incanatrix doesn't require specialization, but requires you to give up a school. Red Wizard requires both specialization, and to give up another school. Master Specialist requires specialization.

I thought that you gave up a school and gained specialisation in Abjuration as well as whatever you already specialise in, is that wrong?


ya... mabye i misunderstood the thread?

No, you understood. :3

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 12:09 PM
I thought that you gave up a school and gained specialisation in Abjuration as well as whatever you already specialise in, is that wrong?



No, you understood. :3

You don't actually gain abj specialization in the 3.5, PGtF version.

The 3.0 version was different, though, that's probably what you're thinking of.

Myou
2010-02-18, 12:14 PM
You don't actually gain abj specialization in the 3.5, PGtF version.

The 3.0 version was different, though, that's probably what you're thinking of.

Ahhh, I see, that explains that.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 12:20 PM
That reminds me though...what happens to spells currently known from a school when you ban it?

The 3.0 version of incantatrix let you keep spells known up until that point, via an explicit part of the class rules. Im not aware of any 3.5 ruling on this, but none of the classes mention it. The specialization rules don't explicitly spell out what happens to already known spells at this point, due to not considering the possibility of banning schools after first level.

Math_Mage
2010-02-18, 01:02 PM
That reminds me though...what happens to spells currently known from a school when you ban it?

The 3.0 version of incantatrix let you keep spells known up until that point, via an explicit part of the class rules. Im not aware of any 3.5 ruling on this, but none of the classes mention it. The specialization rules don't explicitly spell out what happens to already known spells at this point, due to not considering the possibility of banning schools after first level.

I'm pretty sure they do, actually:

Spells of the prohibited school or schools are not available to the wizard, and she can’t even cast such spells from scrolls or fire them from wands.

No latitude is made even for spells already in the spellbook.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 01:08 PM
The issue is mainly what "not available" means....is it available to learn, or available to cast.

The "can't even cast them off scrolls" implies it covers casting at well, but stops short of explicitly saying it.

On the other hand, the availability of learning spells from banned schools via normal routes is explicitly called out as unavailable.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-18, 01:14 PM
It also doesn't mention that you can still use UMD to use items that require banned school spells, but that's got to still be possible, no?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-18, 01:17 PM
It also doesn't mention that you can still use UMD to use items that require banned school spells, but that's got to still be possible, no?

That's definitely possible...since the entire point of UMD is to use things you normally could not. So, you can indeed cast that scroll using UMD...just not automatically as you could with someone on your spell list.

Basically, banned schools tend to be treated as not being on your spell list. So...methods for adding spells to your spell list should also work for banned schools. They appear to in general.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 01:39 PM
I'm pretty sure they do, actually:


No latitude is made even for spells already in the spellbook.

DMG's version of Red Wizard of Thay explicitly states that if you've all ready scribed those spells into your spellbook and were able to cast them prior to banning the school, you retain the ability to cast those spells. However, you cannot learn new ones from that same school.

Myou
2010-02-18, 04:18 PM
DMG's version of Red Wizard of Thay explicitly states that if you've all ready scribed those spells into your spellbook and were able to cast them prior to banning the school, you retain the ability to cast those spells. However, you cannot learn new ones from that same school.

Which is something I hate about the class - you can stock up on all the spells you'll want, even one of higher levels, then enter the class and basically ignore the penalty, and go against the fluff.

Funny, I'm sure there were more PrCs that required banning extra school or already being a specialist. Anyone know any more?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 04:23 PM
Which is something I hate about the class - you can stock up on all the spells you'll want, even one of higher levels, then enter the class and basically ignore the penalty, and go against the fluff.

Funny, I'm sure there were more PrCs that required banning extra school or already being a specialist. Anyone know any more?

It says you have to be able to cast the spells in addition to them being in your spellbook, so High Level spells are out unless you're all ready past them.

ericgrau
2010-02-18, 04:25 PM
Quick optimization tangent: What's the most number of schools you can ban in a build, and what kind of crazy bonuses can you then get to your favored school in exchange? I'm thinking focused specialist red wizard to start, for 4 banned schools. What else? Can you make a build that bans all schools except universal? :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2010-02-18, 04:39 PM
It says you have to be able to cast the spells in addition to them being in your spellbook, so High Level spells are out unless you're all ready past them.

Well that's good at least. But still pretty cheap.


Quick optimization tangent: What's the most number of schools you can ban in a build, and what kind of crazy bonuses can you then get to your favored school in exchange? I'm thinking focused specialist red wizard to start, for 4 banned schools. What else? Can you make a build that bans all schools except universal? :smallbiggrin:

I think I saw someone else try this. :3

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 04:45 PM
Quick optimization tangent: What's the most number of schools you can ban in a build, and what kind of crazy bonuses can you then get to your favored school in exchange? I'm thinking focused specialist red wizard to start, for 4 banned schools. What else? Can you make a build that bans all schools except universal? :smallbiggrin:

I seem to recall that there's a feat somewhere that gives you goodies in exchange for banning an extra school. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it is.

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-02-18, 05:05 PM
I'm sure it'd have to be a Divination Specialist though, maybe Focused SpecialistWizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/Red Wizard drops 5 schools or 4 if you specialize in Divination.

A Changeling Focused Specialist Racial Wizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/RedWizard loses 6 schools and retains Transmutation and Illusion although I don't know how you could drop Divination, maybe you would have to drop one of your specializations. You'd only end up with Transmutation, Divination, and Universal left.

Edit: Can you ban universal? Otherwise, perhaps a wish can allow you to ban divination.

Myou
2010-02-18, 05:15 PM
I'm sure it'd have to be a Divination Specialist though, maybe Focused SpecialistWizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/Red Wizard drops 5 schools or 4 if you specialize in Divination.

A Changeling Focused Specialist Racial Wizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/RedWizard loses 6 schools and retains Transmutation and Illusion although I don't know how you could drop Divination, maybe you would have to drop one of your specializations. You'd only end up with Transmutation, Divination, and Universal left.

Edit: Can you ban universal? Otherwise, perhaps a wish can allow you to ban divination.

Universal doesn't count as a school, so you can't ban it.

Nate the Snake
2010-02-18, 06:36 PM
A Changeling Focused Specialist Racial Wizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/RedWizard loses 6 schools and retains Transmutation and Illusion although I don't know how you could drop Divination, maybe you would have to drop one of your specializations. You'd only end up with Transmutation, Divination, and Universal left.


[A specialist wizard] must also give up two other schools of magic [...] which become her prohibited schools.

Emphasis mine. Specialty schools can't be prohibited. Dual Specialization doesn't contradict this, so Illusion and Transmutation stay in. Incantatrix can't ban Abjuration, so that stays in, and Divination stays in by default. You keep four schools, so you can only ban four schools.


I'm sure it'd have to be a Divination Specialist though, maybe Focused SpecialistWizard/MasterSpecialist/Incantrix/Red Wizard drops 5 schools or 4 if you specialize in Divination.

I think this is the record holder for the most prohibited schools.