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View Full Version : Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge (As seen on BG)



Heliomance
2010-02-18, 01:52 PM
Basically, a challenge to create an optimised, flavourful character, using a "secret ingredient" of a particular PrC, revealed only once the competition has started. You will need to present your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

1. Menu: For most challenges, the "secret ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.

2. Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine and Unearthed Arcana are discouraged, because of the potential for controversy or unfamiliarity; if you feel you need to use those sources, please contact me.

3. Cooking Time: Contests will be announced a week in advance, to give people time to sign up. Following a week of sign-ups, the "secret ingredient" will be announced. Contestants will have one week to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman (most likely me, at least for the first few.) Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying.

4. Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Flavour, Use of Secret Ingredient.

5. Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor.

6. Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

7. Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners.


So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for 3-4 judges and as many contestants as feel like playing!

Judges:
Tackyhillbillu
Lostfang
Signmaker
Clockworkmonk
Brendan

Contestants:
sonofzeal
FishAreWet
Vulaas
RagnaroksChosen
DracoDei
Akal Saris
Eurus
Your Nemesis
redlock
Mushroom Ninja
KitTheOdd
Tinydwarfman
Dusk Eclipse
Koury
tonberrian
BooNL
Tavar
koeldflare
Godskook
Tehnar
Wings of Peace
Tanis HalfElven
9mm
Amphetryon
sofawall
term1nally s1ck
Hand of Vecna

sonofzeal
2010-02-18, 01:59 PM
The last Iron Chef I participated in (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3568.0), it was widely agreed that submitting five different character sheets was a pretty silly idea. That's a huge among of time and effort and stress getting everything right and working out equipment lists for each. What we ended up agreeing on was just submitting the ones you want to, rather than being obligated to to make five.


In other news, I'm in.

FishAreWet
2010-02-18, 02:01 PM
I'm in.67890

Heliomance
2010-02-18, 02:12 PM
The last Iron Chef I participated in (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3568.0), it was widely agreed that submitting five different character sheets was a pretty silly idea. That's a huge among of time and effort and stress getting everything right and working out equipment lists for each. What we ended up agreeing on was just submitting the ones you want to, rather than being obligated to to make five.


In other news, I'm in.

Very well. A brief rundown of the build's capabilities at all five levels will still be expected though, to prove that it's playable right through.

Vulaas
2010-02-18, 03:57 PM
This should be good practice for me in learning to optimize better, I'd love to participate.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 04:11 PM
i'm in...


Where do i sign up.

DracoDei
2010-02-18, 04:22 PM
I would join this but for two factors:
1.) I am very unreliable about finishing things.
2.) And this is the important one, to encourage something like playtesting for the poor, starving-for-even-somewhat-empirical-data, homebrew forums, I would ask that you allow any PrC from the PrC contests that has gotten at least 1 vote. I would say allow anything from homebrew, except that SOME level of quality control is probably a good thing... Should I consider running this as a separate contest some time? Maybe you could just do it as a one-off thing?

Akal Saris
2010-02-18, 04:35 PM
Heyas Heliomance =)

I think I did 3 of the 4 last iron chef challenges (and won the first, w00t!), so I'd certainly be down for it.

There's no way I'm going to do five whole character sheets again though - it was way too much work, and for one of the challenges I was the only one that bothered, which really annoyed me. I don't mind sketching out how the build evolves - I usually do it as a reminder to myself anyhow.

It's probably a good idea to get about 20 contestants or so, considering that only 2-5 ever come up with a finished build at the end.

Heliomance
2010-02-18, 04:53 PM
Post edited to reflect the changed rules.

BenTheJester
2010-02-18, 07:10 PM
I'll try my hand

Eurus
2010-02-18, 07:47 PM
I can't guarantee that I'll have time when the contest actually starts, but if I do, I'd like to submit something.

Your Nemesis
2010-02-18, 07:56 PM
Ill try it.

redlock
2010-02-18, 10:49 PM
I'm in.

Just one clarification: do we want to make a balanced, flavorful class, or an unashedly OP class?

Tackyhillbillu
2010-02-18, 11:10 PM
I'll judge, I suppose.

sonofzeal
2010-02-18, 11:19 PM
I'm in.

Just one clarification: do we want to make a balanced, flavorful class, or an unashedly OP class?
Traditionally, it's graded in multiple areas - Originality, Power, Use of Secret Ingredient. There's also a penalty for illegal builds, and a build that (say) exploits Candle of Invocation cheese really won't score well in the Use of Secret Ingredient category.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-18, 11:35 PM
I'll put in a build if I have the time/inspiration. This could be a lot of fun! :smallsmile:

KitTheOdd
2010-02-19, 12:40 AM
I'll give it a shot. I've missed the Hero Craftsman competitions on the Wizards boards.

Ormagoden
2010-02-19, 01:02 PM
I'll judge! since you don't have any yet.

Akal Saris
2010-02-22, 10:51 PM
Bump: this contest will need more challengers and more judges.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-22, 10:56 PM
Sure, I'll join, why not?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-22, 10:59 PM
I need to check my optimising-fu, so I'll guess I'll sign up as a contestant.

Koury
2010-02-22, 11:07 PM
I'll throw down, if only because I have an unexplainable need to beat Eurus. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, this is bad news for you, since I DM a game you play in ;) Afraid of the dark indeed. Muhahaha!

tonberrian
2010-02-22, 11:31 PM
Sounds fun. Sign me up as a contestant.

BooNL
2010-02-23, 02:27 AM
I'll sign up as well. I'm not the best optimizer, but I feel I do alright in creating fun characters.

However, you mention working the build out in 5 different levels. Alright, sounds like a lot of work, but fine. Does this include using all WBL though or is a brief rundown of useful equipment sufficient?

Heliomance
2010-02-23, 02:54 AM
As mentioned, you don't need to give a full build at all five levels. Give a full build for at least one of them, and a rundown of what it can do at the others.

Two more days before I announce the secret ingredient!

Tavar
2010-02-23, 03:11 AM
I'm up for this as well. Wonder what the secret ingredient is.

BooNL
2010-02-23, 03:13 AM
Let's hope it's not koriander, only so much stuff you can do with that.




Ofcourse, with koriander I mean Monk.

Akal Saris
2010-02-23, 11:12 PM
I'm going to put my money on Thousand Island dressing!!

Oh, for reference the last few Iron Chef challenges included Beastmaster (without making an ubermount build) and Suel Arcanamach. So I'm hoping for something from C. Scoundrel this time around.

koeldflare
2010-02-24, 12:19 AM
Although I'm quite new to the idea of optimising, I would like to give this a shot.

So if you could sign me up that would be awesome-sauce.

Godskook
2010-02-24, 12:34 AM
I might as well try. Could be fun.

Signmaker
2010-02-24, 12:37 AM
Is our sourcebook availability equivalent to the secret ingredient sourcebook availability? That is to say, just how many books are allowed?

And yeah, I'm offering to help judge for one round, as exams would cut my work time down to half that you're offering. At least with judging I wouldn't have to pay attention until Saturdayish, which by then my exams are over. I can't say what my availability would be like for future rounds.

Tehnar
2010-02-24, 12:45 AM
I am up for this as well.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-24, 02:58 AM
I'm game. Should be fun.

Tanis HalfElven
2010-02-24, 03:55 AM
Love a good build. i'm in.

Heliomance
2010-02-24, 04:53 AM
Hmm, I'll be slightly influenced by the vox populi here - votes please, caster or non-caster PrC?

BooNL
2010-02-24, 05:05 AM
Hmmz... difficult choice. Non-caster PrC's usually end up pretty samey as they don't have as much tricks as the caster classes.

How about a half-progressing PrC? They're usually seen as bad, let's see if we can cook up something nice with one of them.

9mm
2010-02-24, 09:59 AM
sure why not I'll bite.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-24, 11:35 AM
Vote for a half-caster prg,sound interesting

Wings of Peace
2010-02-24, 01:10 PM
I don't think it's a very 'secret' of an ingredient if we get to vote for parts it.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-24, 02:04 PM
I don't think it's a very 'secret' of an ingredient if we get to vote for parts it.

It is still secret, we know what type of class we'll have to use, but we won't know which class exactly (or at least that's how I understand it)

Akal Saris
2010-02-24, 03:42 PM
I vote for non-caster personally. Makes it more of a challenge.

Godskook
2010-02-24, 03:55 PM
Isn't it more approriate to roll for it?

Koury
2010-02-24, 04:02 PM
Yeah. All PrCs alphabitized, then 1d472 :smallbiggrin:

I'm joking. I like it determined by the judges.

clockworkmonk
2010-02-24, 04:12 PM
I would like to judge. if thats cool.

Brendan
2010-02-24, 05:11 PM
That sounds great. I'd love to judge, but could participate if you don't need a bunch of judges.
seems fun.

Heliomance
2010-02-24, 06:08 PM
Okay, that's enough judges. Still taking contestant applications until tomorrow.

...if you REALLY want to join in after the ingredient's been announced, there's nothing stopping you though, I guess...

Amphetryon
2010-02-24, 10:52 PM
IN as contestant before ingredient listing. :)

sofawall
2010-02-24, 10:52 PM
I'll see if I have time. If I have time, I'll submit something. Can't commit to anything though.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-24, 11:54 PM
Is Unearthed Arcana really an obscure source? Flaws and Cloistered Cleric are all fairly well known along with a slew of other things from the book.

Tanis HalfElven
2010-02-24, 11:54 PM
I vote non-caster, personally. more interesting

deuxhero
2010-02-25, 12:15 AM
Are the ToS legal UA stuff (the ACFs, the races ect) legal for this?

Wings of Peace
2010-02-25, 12:16 AM
Are the ToS legal UA stuff (the ACFs, the races ect) legal for this?

Till the OP states otherwise I imagine not as this is separate from ToS. Though it also only says they're discouraged not disallowed.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-25, 12:47 AM
I'm in. Sounds very very interesting.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-25, 05:58 AM
Count me in.

BooNL
2010-02-25, 06:08 AM
Is Unearthed Arcana really an obscure source? Flaws and Cloistered Cleric are all fairly well known along with a slew of other things from the book.

Flaws and Traits are actually pretty DM-tied. I make most build assuming they're not allowed, though.

What I'd like to know: do we use fractional BAB or the regular rules?
Fractional gives a bit more leeway in multiclassing.
Speaking of multiclassing: do we have to account for multiclass penalties?

Amphetryon
2010-02-25, 07:02 AM
Is Unearthed Arcana really an obscure source? Flaws and Cloistered Cleric are all fairly well known along with a slew of other things from the book.

It's less about obscurity than it is about the fact that UA is considered, at its heart, a collection of optional house rules for character creation, to a degree that the other splat books are not. As such, UA is more likely a flashpoint for controversy in a game than other sources. That's my understanding, at any rate.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-25, 07:37 AM
I generally assume everything from the paragon's through alternate class features is fair game since their written and presented like the crunch of standard sourcebooks, I ask about traits and flaws and presume everything else is off limits since the rest actually is optional houserules. The good stuff in UA shouldn't be penalized for the rest of the book being wierd; that's like banning all the prestige classes in CD because Ur-Priest is broken.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 08:45 AM
Unearthed Arcana material, including flaws and traits, is discouraged but not banned. Flaws tend, on the whole, to be rather cheesy - much as I like using them, it's generally a case of "how can I get more feats while taking as few penalties as possible?" We are cooking here - flavour is important!

Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.

No multiclass penalties - I never understood the point in them. Just remember the above point - flavour flavour flavour! It doesn't matter how well put-together a build is, if it doesn't taste good it won't go down well with the judges!

Banter is warmly encouraged!

Anyway, it's a week since I posted this, so on with the contest!

Half casting was requested, and half casting it is! Your secret ingredient for this Iron Chef Challenge is...

Complete Divine's Entropomancer!

Good luck, all...

Allez optimiser!

BooNL
2010-02-25, 09:17 AM
Entropomancer? Really. :smalleek:

That'll be a challenge indeed!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-25, 09:22 AM
Entropomancer? Really. :smalleek:

That'll be a challenge indeed!

Better start working

Eurus
2010-02-25, 09:23 AM
I'll throw down, if only because I have an unexplainable need to beat Eurus. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, this is bad news for you, since I DM a game you play in ;) Afraid of the dark indeed. Muhahaha!

Suddenly I'm not sure if I want to win or lose. :smalltongue:


Also, Entropomancer, huh? Interesting...

Koury
2010-02-25, 04:32 PM
So, I've got the basics of my build worked out but do I need to allocate items?

As a matter of fact, I'm kinda unsure of how I'm supposed to present this in general.

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 04:52 PM
Full builds should include at least the important items, and should be presented as a statblock and level breakdown with explanation. Any levels you decide not to do a full build for you should give a level outline and a brief explanation of how it should play at that level. You then PM it to me.

Amphetryon
2010-02-25, 08:31 PM
28 points like in #IC 4? 32 points like CharOp typically finds tasty? I failed a Spot check, maybe?

Akal Saris
2010-02-25, 08:39 PM
Let's assume 32 PB - it seems to be the Char Op standard, and I've already begun my build based on that assumption.

Here's the original Iron Chef Optimization (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1701.0)thread for those who want to see what's come before.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-02-25, 09:15 PM
Is full progression in the prescribed class required or just worth bonus points?

Heliomance
2010-02-25, 10:38 PM
Down to the individual judges, but "use of the secret ingredient" is a judging category.

Eurus
2010-02-25, 11:07 PM
Do you need to include a full "typical" list of prepared spells, or just the highlights?

Soonerdj
2010-02-25, 11:53 PM
Ah no longer taking apps, can I still turn one in? I have been working on my character building skills. If not then I'm ok with that.

Heliomance
2010-02-26, 02:29 AM
Highlights of spell selection only, and as I said previously, there's nothing actually stopping you joinging in mid-way through if you really want to.

BooNL
2010-02-26, 02:37 AM
I'm debating between two ideas at the moment, though I've hit a bit of a crux.

I can either go a slightly uninspired way, possibly bordering on cheesy, but it'll have power to show for it. As well as excellent use of the secret ingredient (if I may say so myself).
Or I can go a more original route, though it'll probably be severely lacking in power compared to what other'll come up with. More synergy with the secret ingredient though...

sonofzeal
2010-02-26, 03:27 AM
I'm debating between two ideas at the moment, though I've hit a bit of a crux.

I can either go a slightly uninspired way, possibly bordering on cheesy, but it'll have power to show for it. As well as excellent use of the secret ingredient (if I may say so myself).
Or I can go a more original route, though it'll probably be severely lacking in power compared to what other'll come up with. More synergy with the secret ingredient though...
I vote for the latter. Far more entertaining.

Akal Saris
2010-02-26, 10:43 AM
Agreed. For what it's worth, my build is using T4 and T5 classes, so yours won't be the only one that's underpowered compared to the ur-priest/entropomancer builds.

BooNL
2010-02-26, 10:46 AM
Agreed. For what it's worth, my build is using T4 and T5 classes, so yours won't be the only one that's underpowered compared to the ur-priest/entropomancer builds.

Yeah, that was idea nr. 1 :smallsigh:. Like I said, powerful, but pretty lame.

Tier 4 & 5 eh? I have a feeling we might be looking at the same stuff here. Anyway, I've got most of my build sorted out, some pretty good synergies in there as well. Now I just need to find a way to tie it all together, the patato in a good soup if you will.

Akal Saris
2010-02-26, 11:06 AM
Yeah, ur-priests kind of score a 5 on power and a 0 on originality in my opinion.

I think it will be hilarious if you and I both come up with a near-identical low tier build though =P

Amphetryon
2010-02-26, 12:27 PM
I'm ignoring uber-Gouda as well. It's more entertaining when you avoid the preset "I win" buttons.

AbyssKnight
2010-02-26, 12:53 PM
Remember Rule 6, people. Not discussing potential builds. While a completely obvious way to go, some people may be including Ur Priest in their entries.

Eurus
2010-02-26, 12:57 PM
Bah, I feel like what I'm ending up with will be low on both power and originality. Maybe inspiration will strike me, it's not too late to change my mind if it does...

BooNL
2010-03-01, 09:21 AM
When was the cut-off date again? Thursday?

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-01, 02:48 PM
I'm going under the assumption it's whensday morning because I think that's when the secret ingredient was posted.

clockworkmonk
2010-03-01, 03:28 PM
The secret ingredient was posted 1:45 am GMT on thursday of last week. hope that helps.

Heliomance
2010-03-01, 05:25 PM
The date is indeed Thursday, GMT. The exact time depends on my sleep pattern, or lack thereof.

BooNL
2010-03-02, 07:46 AM
I've finished my character, only looking for a quick way to turn him into a decent stat-block. Anyone got any good generators?

Akal Saris
2010-03-02, 10:42 PM
Easiest thing to do is probably to just copy and paste something from a book and then add in your own stats.

Heliomance
2010-03-03, 07:24 PM
It's now thursday, and I've only had three submissions. I won't close submissions just yet, I'll leave it till later today. Be aware, though, for anyone that hasn't finished their build, that the remaining time is measured in hours, not days.

Tehnar
2010-03-03, 08:06 PM
Well it was pretty hard secret ingredient. Not much synergy to build around. I am curious what others made of it.

Akal Saris
2010-03-03, 08:34 PM
Three responses out of 27 signed up? Sounds pretty much like par for the course for the Iron Chef challenges, actually =P

Signmaker
2010-03-03, 08:39 PM
At this rate, my job is going to be quite easy. :smallsmile:

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-03, 09:50 PM
My build is done just adding in equipment bonuses.

Let me know if I should rush it.

Akal Saris
2010-03-03, 10:25 PM
At this rate, my job is going to be quite easy. :smallsmile:

Bwahahaha! Only because you don't realize the wall-o'-text that my build is!


My build is done just adding in equipment bonuses.

Let me know if I should rush it.

Rush it!

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-03, 10:29 PM
Bwahahaha! Only because you don't realize the wall-o'-text that my build is.

glad I'm not the only one.

Ok well I'm done can't wait to see how my build stacks up.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-03, 10:51 PM
Build almost done. Rushing the gear and then it's finished.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-03, 11:06 PM
Build... SUBMITTED

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-03, 11:28 PM
Once there is an official cutoff will can we all check out all the builds if the judges in case it takes awhile for all the judges to chime in.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-04, 01:49 AM
I don't wanna reveal too much in case people are still building. But I used Entropomancer in my build. :smallsmile:

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 04:44 AM
Submissions close whichever is earlier out of midnight GMT or whenever The Tangled Web comes back up, as I've had one message saying that their build was on TTW.

Signmaker
2010-03-04, 04:46 AM
I don't wanna reveal too much in case people are still building. But I used Entropomancer in my build. :smallsmile:

One would hope.

There's a particular PrC I'm hoping was picked up on as a corollary in terms of originality, but I'm worried that it won't show up in such a small pool of builds. =/

Heliomance, how soon do you want the input of the judges? It should take me a day or so judging from my workload for tomorrow, is that okay?

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 04:48 AM
I'll post the builds anonymously in this thread, judging should happen as soon as you can manage it but there's no hard limit. Once the results are in, I'll announce who made what build.

BooNL
2010-03-04, 08:33 AM
I don't wanna reveal too much in case people are still building. But I used Entropomancer in my build. :smallsmile:

You copycat! I used that class too!

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-04, 09:03 AM
Observers only:

I wanted to do this, but the best build I could make would have been one using the setting sun throws to chuck people through my shard repeatedly. And I can't even get the best setting sun throw and still use any decent amount of Entropomancer.

I could improve on that by simply using knockback to beat the enemies through the shard, and then I realised that bloodstorm blade would let me throw my enemies at some object behind the shard every attack, so if I could get away with it, I could full-attack for as many attacks as I could get hold of, and do several d6 damage twice per attack. Then I realised that that build sucked hard for the first 10 levels or so, so was rubbish for this competition.

My next thought was using scout and the gravity effect to full-attack by 'moving' 10'. But it's not very controllable, and would limit me a fair bit, and is rubbish early on.

The only thing I thought of past that was using Drunken Master to attack with the shard as an improvised weapon for the lulz.

BooNL
2010-03-04, 09:06 AM
Stuff

Appreciate the thought process dude, but if I were you I'd edit that out. There might be entries using those classes, after all.

Nice ideas though :smallsmile:/

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 02:44 PM
Dammit, just saw that I missed it, oh well.

FishAreWet
2010-03-04, 03:07 PM
My "would've been " mockup:

Mistling Petal XX 2/Entropomancer 10

UMDs scrolls of Ocular Disintegrate or something like that to create Living Versions of them.

I wish I remember this topic with enough time to actually get this to work :smallcool:

EDIT: If only the Shards were SpA instead of Su this would've worked so much better...

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-04, 03:55 PM
What I would've made if my life hadn't gotten so busy :smallsigh: :
Cleric 5/Entropomancer 10/Monk 1/Master Thrower 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 1

The plan was to use palm throw + lots of attacks (from TWF, Rapid Shot, and Haste, and maybe some ToB stuff) while my opponents were in my entropic field and then entangle them or something to let them bleed to death.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-04, 04:11 PM
Mushroom Ninja+Observers

Ohhh, the bleeding effect, I forgot about that...remember, you can use natural weapons in a grapple.

BenTheJester
2010-03-04, 04:16 PM
What I would've made if my life hadn't gotten so busy :smallsigh: :
Cleric 5/Entropomancer 10/Monk 1/Master Thrower 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 1

The plan was to use palm throw + lots of attacks (from TWF, Rapid Shot, and Haste, and maybe some ToB stuff) while my opponents were in my entropic field and then entangle them or something to let them bleed to death.


Entropomancer needs 4th level divine spells, so you need at least Cleric 7

Also, you guys should stop posting "would-have-been builds" until the contest is officially over.

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 04:27 PM
Entropomancer needs 4th level divine spells, so you need at least Cleric 7

Also, you guys should stop posting "would-have-been builds" until the contest is officially over.

Isn't the contest already over? Submissions are closed.

Here is my idea:
Use the shard's pull ability to draw enemies into a wall of blades or the like, just have to figure out how to make the bullrush check not suck so much...

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-04, 04:34 PM
Entropomancer needs 4th level divine spells, so you need at least Cleric 7


Sanctum Spell

BenTheJester
2010-03-04, 04:40 PM
Sanctum Spell

So you effectively lose 10 levels when outside of a specific area? That's not too useful is it?

Tinydwarfman
2010-03-04, 04:49 PM
So you effectively lose 10 levels when outside of a specific area? That's not too useful is it?

??? Have you read sanctum spell? It's a metamagic feat.

BenTheJester
2010-03-04, 04:54 PM
??? Have you read sanctum spell? It's a metamagic feat.

Yes I have. And your spells don't gain +1 level when casted outside your Sanctified area, which means, you don't qualify for Entropomancer anymore, which means you effectively "lose" the class when outside your area.

Unless the casting you get from Entropomancer can be used to qualify for it, which would be weird

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-04, 04:57 PM
Unless the casting you get from Entropomancer can be used to qualify for it, which would be weird

I think it works that way, though I'd have to check again.

Tehnar
2010-03-04, 07:43 PM
The shard of entropy is really a very poor class feature. If it was only a spell like ability then you could get it quickened and actually do something with it. Not a lot but something. As it is it is better for destroying walls or doors, though a adamantium weapon does the same thing better.

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:15 PM
Okay, submissions are now CLOSED! Cue the posting of builds!


Here's my submission for the Iron Chef challenge. If there's any problem, feel free to contact me.

Note: Unfortunately, I was forced to use Unearthed Arcana, to get a +3 Base Fort save before level 6, through Savage Bard and to get Perform as a Permanent Class Skill through Human Paragon.
I also went for a more flavorful build, but it is still quite powerful. I didn’t want to include Ur-Priest, nor did I want to multiclass that much, but it was the only way I could get Seeker of the Song 6 AND Entropomancer 5, which was what I aimed for.

Background
Fayne is the single child of two wealthy nobles. She lived a pretty normal, if luxurious, life through most of her childhood; she went to school, played with other kids and showed a marked interest in music ever since she was very young. She started playing the harp when she was about 7 and was very talented at playing it even then.

One weekend like many others, she went in the wilds to her family’s hunting grove with her mother and father. While the sun was setting down, the family was preparing to leave the grove. A strange turn of event, that Fayne never understood, occurred. Both her parents were consumed by the shadow itself. Fayne was still a kid, and this scarred her in unimaginable ways; it psychologically messed her up.

She was left alone in the wilds, unable to find a way back home; luckily, the various animals present there helped her survive.
After a few years, when she reached her teens, she was able to make her way back to a big city, and was happy to be amongst civilized people as she hated the wilds and how everything was so full of life.

One afternoon, she was playing the harp near a public place and people started noticing. A crowd gathered and was cheering for her. As she continued playing, she noticed that her music could manipulate her listeners' feelings. She immediately used this power to make her listener as screwed as she was by instilling a self-destructive pattern in them. She enjoyed destroying people's life, and her appetite in destruction grew stronger and stronger. Soon, she had visions of grandeur; she wanted to see the world reduced to nothingness.
By now she’s a Savage Bard 5. She’s using the Inspire Awe variant(Dragon Magic), which replaces her Inspire Courage by a fear inducing song, and is otherwise a normal bard.
A figure of power in the city she had temporarily made her home known as Malik the Bleak sensed a particularly dark aura while strolling through the town square. He was surprised when he saw that it originated from the sweet-looking girl playing harp. A quick scan of her thoughts revealed that she shared his desire to see the world turn to rubble. After the bard’s performance, he went and had a deep conversation with her. He sowed in her the idea that, to destroy the world, the gods would first have to disappear.

He taught her how to steal spells from them, and rob them little by little of their power.
Even though she liked the idea of destroying gods, she did not have the patience of her elven tutor and desired a more direct approach to the demise of the world.

She went on the road again, and, at a time during her quest, she heard about a song that was capable of destroying worlds. A song that was so beautiful that it brought everything down to ruin.
The path for her was now clear; she was to learn that song.

Meanwhile, alongside her stolen divine powers, entropic powers began to develop. Why? Who knows? Perhaps her appetite for destruction was big enough to trigger the appearance of those powers
Fayne is now a Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 1.
She is a good spell caster, thanks to her high wisdom scores and the fast progression of Ur-Priest spellcasting. The basic Shard of Entropy helps her destroy anything that has a high will save and protect her from melee attackers with wise placement of the shard.

She can also burn Rebuke Undead attempts(which she’s gonna have gratuitous amount thanks to her high charisma) to gain +10ft speed and 2 temporary HP per character level.
After years, her quest took a big step forward when she met Gemetris. Gemetris was a bard who spent his whole life searching for the perfect song, and did not care what the consequences of playing the song might be.
Fayne is now a Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 5/Seeker of the Song 1.
The first sweet spot is hit when she reach level 14. She then has access to 6th level divine spells and 2nd level bard spells. Entropomancer 5 gives her the Entropic Field who allows a reroll once per round.
At level 15 she gains the first Seeker Song, which is quite a good damage dealer.
By staying with him, she progressed incredibly fast in the search. However, she one day surpassed her master, and had no use for him so Fayne left to wander the world again, seeking for that beautiful melody who would end worlds...
Ding- Fayne hits the sweet sweet level 20. At this point she has what she was built around(metagamingly). She gets the Hymn of Spelldeath, which forces any spellcaster in range to roll a concentration check(opposed by a Perform check) to be able to cast his spells, and, thanks to Entropic Field, the caster has to succeed that check twice. And let’s not forget the 6th level casting from Ur-Priest, Divine Vigor(which works in her Entropic Field, since it’s not healing), Persistent Refusal and the ability to cast while playing her songs.
Fayne Parthinia
Female Human Savage Bard 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 5/Seeker of the Song 6
Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 9d6+11d8+60 (143 HP)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30ft
Armor Class: 25 Touch: 14 Flat-footed: 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+12 (or +15/+14 partial)
Attack: +13 melee (1d6 18-20/x2, +1 Sudden Stunning Rapier)
Full Attack: +13/+8/+3 melee (1d6 18-20/x2, +1 Sudden Stunning Rapier)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Bardic Music 9/day (Inspire Awe, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Competence), Bardic Knowledge 5, Adaptative Learning(Perform), Divine Spell Resistance 15, Rapture of the Song (AC and Saves), Combine Songs, Subvocalize
Special Attacks: Rebuke Undead 15/day (+12, 2d6+16, 4th), Shard of Entropy 2/day (5d6), Entropic Field 2/day (reroll), Seeker Music (Burning Melody, Song of Unmaking, Dirge of Frozen Loss, Song of Life, Anthem of Thunder and Pain, Hymn of Spelldeath)
Saves: Fort +21, Ref +14, Will +33
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 34
Skills: Literacy, Bluff +20, Concentration +8, Knowledge(Arcana) +19, Knowledge(History) +1, Knowledge(Nature) +2, Knowledge(The Planes) +6, Knowledge(Religion) +8, Listen +25, Perform(String Instruments) +39, Spellcraft +12, Use Magic Device +19(+21 with scrolls)
Skill Tricks: Collector of Story, False Theurgy
Feats: Great Fortitude(B), Iron Will(1), Skill Focus(Perform[String Instruments]) (3), Spell Focus(Evil) (B), Magical Aptitude(6), Divine Vigor(Complete Warrior p.108) (9), Versatile Spellcaster(Races of the Dragon) (12), Melodic Casting(CM p.45) (15), Persistent Refusal(Fiendish Codex II p.85) (18)
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Languages Spoken: Common
Noteworthy Possessions: Ollamh Harp, +1 Sudden Stunning Rapier(DMG II), +1 Mithral Breastplate of Vanishing, Strand of Prayer Beads, Orange Ioun Stone, Periapt of Wisdom, Cloak of Charisma, Amulet of Health(different body slot), Gloves of Dexterity, Vest of Resistance, Various Wands and Scrolls

Ur-Priest - Spells prepared(6/5/5/5/3/2/1):
0: Create Water, Detect Magic, Guidance x4,
1: Ebon Eyes, Entropic Shield, Inhibit, Omen of Peril, Sanctuary
2: Divine Insight x2, Hold Person, Shatter, Undetectable Alignment
3: Dispel Magic x2, Divine Retaliation, Lesser Visage of the Deity, Magic Circle Against Good
4: Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity
5: Break Enchantment, Plane Shift
6: Energy Immunity

Bard - Spells known: (3/6/3 spells per day)
0: Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Ghostharp, Message, Songbird, Summon Instrument
1: Charm Person, Improvisation, Joyful Noise
2: Delusions of Grandeur, Wave of Grief

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:16 PM
Build number 2!

Ok this is the finished build. I think it is all legal and without any cheese.

Lothar Shattershield, NE human

Sources used:

PHB
DMG
Complete Warrior (CW)
Complete Divine (CD)
Tome of Magic (ToM)
Item sources only:
Magic Item Compendium
Miniatures Handbook


Race: Human, 32 point buy

{table]Ability|Starting|Modified
Strength|16|28
Dexterity|10|16
Constitution|12|20
Intelligence|10|16
Wisdom|12|18
Charisma|16|30
[/table]


{table]Level|Class|Bab|Fort|Refl|Will|Skills|Feat|Special
1|Fighter|1|2|0|0|Knowledge(Religion) 2.0, Hide 2.0, Sense Motive 2.0|Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shield Specialization|-
2|Fighter|2|3|0|0|Knowledge(Religion) 2.5, Hide 2.5, Sense Motive 2.5|-|Dungeoncrasher I
3|Fighter|3|3|1|1|Knowledge(Religion) 3.0, Hide 3.0, Sense Motive 3.0|Cleave|-
4|Fighter|4|4|1|1|Knowledge(Religion) 3.5, Hide 3.5, Sense Motive 3.5|Improved Sunder|+1 CHA
5|Fighter|5|4|1|1|Knowledge(Religion) 4.0, Hide 4.0, Sense Motive 4.0|-|-
6|Fighter|6|5|2|2|Hide 4.5, UMD 1.0|Shield Ward|Dungeoncrasher II
7|Witch Slayer|7|7|2|4|Hide 5.0, Knowledge (Arcana) 4|-|Smite Spirit Sharer
8|Blackguard|8|9|2|4|Concentration 2, Knowledge (Arcana) 4.5|-|Aura of Evil, detect good, poison use, +1 CHA
9|Blackguard|9|10|2|4|Concentration 4, Knowledge (Arcana) 5.0|Great Fortitude|Dark Blessing, Smite good 1/day
10|Blackguard|10|10|3|5|Concentration 5, UMD 1.0 |-|Command Undead, Aura of Despair
11|Blackguard|11|11|3|5|Ride 1, UMD 2.0|-|Sneak Attack +1d6
12|Blackguard|12|11|3|5|UMD 3.5|Magical Aptitude|Fiendish Servant, Smite good 2/day, +1 CHA
13|Blackguard|13|12|4|6|UMD 5.0|-|-
14|Blackguard|14|12|4|6|UMD 6.5|-|Sneak Attack +2d6
15|Entropomancer|14|14|4|8|Concentration 8|Divine Shield|Shard of Entropy 2/day
16|Entropomancer|15|15|4|9|Concentration 11|-| Blackguard spellcasting 8, +1 STR
17|Entropomancer|16|15|5|9|UMD 8.0|-|Entropic Field 2/day
18|Entropomancer|17|16|5|10|UMD 9.5|Combat Brute| Blackguard spellcasting 9
19|Entropomancer|17|16|5|10|UMD 11.0|-|Entropic Field (reroll), Shard of Entropy (5d6)
20|Witch Slayer|18|17|5|11|Spellcraft 5|-|Mettle, +1 CON
[/table]

Skill summary (with modifiers):
Concentration: +16
Hide +8
Knowledge (Arcana) +8
Knowledge (Religion) +8
Sense Motive +8
Spellcraft +10
Ride: +4
UMD +23 (+25 scrolls)

Hp:10+12d10+7d8 + 20x5= 207 hp
Fort: +17+2+5+5+10=+39
Refl: +5+3+5+10=+23
Will: +11+4+5+10= +30

Pre-buffs
AC: 10+3(armor)+4(Shield) +3 Dex= 20
Touch AC: 17

Equipment:

Belt of Magnificence 200,000
Manual of Strength +5 137,500
Manual of Charisma +5 82,500
Manual of Constitution +1 27,500
Vest of Resistance +5 25,000
Staff of Conviction 3,000
Staff of Shield of Faith 3,000
Staff of Barkskin 6,000
Staff of Heroics 6,000
Staff of Enlarge Person 3,000
Staff of Wraithstrike 6,000
Staff of Lions Charge 9,000
Staff of Magic Vestment 9,000
Wings of Flying 54,000
Boots of Speed with Anklet of Translocation attached 14,100
Scout's Headband 3,400
+1 Animated Heavy Shield 9,000
+1 Metalline Great Sword 18,330
Serpent Armor 12,160
Ring of Evasion 25,000
Dusty Rose (+1 Insight to AC) Ioun Stone 5,000
Pale Green (+1 to attack, saves) Ioun Stone 30,000
total: 743,490 gp


Tactics:
Depending on the party composition use various staffs to buff beforehand. Staff charges are pretty cheap so use them when you feel like it. Use the staff of Heroics to get Shock Trooper and Quick Draw (so you can quick draw staff of Wraithstrike) feats. For these low level staffs you can't fail the UMD check except on a 1. Before (or on the first round of the encounter) use Divine shield and activate the entropic field. Engage targets of opportunity with Dungeoncrasher (since you don't roll a attack roll you can even bull rush targets with concealement without miss chance). Try staying close to enemies capable of casting healing magic.

Commentary:
This build is focused on high defenses and a moderate physical threat. Combat Reflexes feat gained for armor provides a modicum of battlefield control (as in if he charged using shocktrooper you don't want to provoke AoO's from him). I envision him as more of a support character that is hard to bring down.

Use of secret ingredient:
I tried to get a good synergy going with a Entropomancer though its abilities are really poor. The best I can come up with is to make a melee attacker that will use the entropy aura to shut down enemy healers (pretty nasty against heal and mass heal). Also it has good synergy when a friendly caster uses a save or X spell, as you can use the aura to make the target reroll (and a benefit Aura of Despair gives enemies -2 to saves). I originally envisioned the character to bull rush things into his shard of entropy but that takes a lot of effort to pull off. Since creating the shard is a supernatural ability, takes a standard action (and it doesn't stick around for long) setting up such a combo would take a few rounds. As it is I would put the build at the middle of tier 4.

Level rundown:
5= your typical dungeoncrasher
10= blackguard levels bring you much better saves, you are still meleeing it up
15= Divine shield brings you added defense, UMD can activate any wand and most low level staffs
20= mettle and entropy aura finish off the build, this is where it all comes together

Highlights:
: high saves with mettle+evasion
: high defense against bull rush, trip, etc
: high touch AC when properly buffed
: shield AC contributes to touch AC, Divine shield adds CHA modifier to shield AC
: not reliant on other party members for buffs
:18 base BaB.

Downsides:
: mediocre damage, hit points and AC
: poor initiative
: build is extremely feat and skill starved; meeting all prerequisites was tough
: build suffers from MAD syndrome


Touch AC with buffs and Divine Shield: 10+3 dex + 5 deflection +1 insight + 18 (shield, +23 if your DM rules that Shield Ward buffs your shield AC): 37 (42) // 51 normal AC. Buffs are Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith and Divine shield (all which Lothar is able to provide himself).

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:18 PM
And from our very own [redacted], we have:



Jorath, Hand of Annihilation.
LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5

With links:
Paladin of Tyranny 4/ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm)
Hexblade 4/ (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/class_hexblade.htm)
Blackguard 7/ (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm)
Entropomancer 5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a)

What is this build designed to do?

This is a character designed to be the party's primary tank and a support character to the party's primary spellcasters. While he is the quintessential "Big Stupid Fighter", he also reduces opponents' saving throws by -8 to -13 or more every round, allowing the rest of the party to easily subdue the opponent with save-or-die and crowd control spells and abilities.

In addition, the character can reduce opponents to cowering or frightened with ease through its intimidation and fear-inspiring abilities, providing both an additional way to target opponents and further increases crowd control options for the party.

Finally, it's worth noting that the character is designed using a pair of Tier 4 & 5 base classes, and a pair of mediocre to terrible prestige classes. I know BooNL is also using T4 and T5 classes, so it will be pretty awesome if he and I end up with practically the same low tier build.

The purpose behind these classes is twofold: first, accessibility - the baseline build requires only core, the free online SRD, and Complete Warrior and Divine (and links to all of these ingredients are provided below). Second, I wanted to showcase the synergies that can result from the combination of several subpar classes and prestige classes. The build is intended to be a playable character, from 1st to 20th level in a Tier 3 game, and would also make an excellent cohort for an evil PC spellcaster or NPC.

What is this build not doing?

This is not a "God" spellcaster, nor does it use ur-priest or character rebuilding to gain 9th level spells with the entropomancer's half-casting. It is not Theoretical Optimization or an uber-charger. Instead, this is a frontline fighter whose primary purpose is to take a lot of damage, be almost impervious to any spell that grants a saving throw, provide crowd control through fear effects, and debuff his opponents enough to allow the "God" characters in the party to be successful.

Relevant links:
[URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm"]Paladin of Tyranny
[URL="http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/class_hexblade.htm"]Hexblade
[URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm"]Blackguard
[URL="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a"]Entropomancer

Basic stuff:
Jorath, Hand of Annihilation. LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5

Hit Dice: 15d10, 5d8
Base Attack: +18
Final Saves: Fort +37, Ref +23, Will +33, +45/+31/+41 against arcane spells or with one round to prepare. (Assumes Cloak of Charisma +6, Vest +5, Divine Grace +8, Arcane Resistance +8, Dark Blessing +8, Evil's Blessing +8).
Caster Level: Hexblade 4, Paladin 4, Blackguard 9

Sample character flavor:
What do you get when you combine paladin of tyranny, hexblade, blackguard, entropomancer, and worshipping an elder evil? Pure evil, that's what. Jorath is a paragon of law and evil, and that's just how he rolls. He worships Pandorym, an elder evil (think Cthulhu mythos god-monsters) who is literally a Gargantuan sphere of annihilation. I'm serious. Look at Elder Evils Pg. 82 if you think I'm joking. Joram seeks the destruction of all life - even the gods themselves - and plans to replace them with the cold, dead, utterly unemotional void of annihilation, to rule a shattered world in perfect law after Pandorym has passed from the Material Plane.

Jorath knows that it's him, his party, and a few crazy cultists against the multiverse, and those are just the kind of odds he likes. His job: to carry out Pandorym's will, protect the spellcasters in his party, and neutralize the other side as quickly and efficiently as possible. How does he do it? Through fear, poison, and brute force.

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 15
All levels: increase Charisma

Skills at 1st level: Intimidate (4R), Hide (2R cross-class), Knowledge (Arcana) (4R)

Feats:
1: Power Attack
1: Great Fortitude
1B: Dreadful Wrath [Shaky Flaw]
1B: Cleave [Murky-Eyed Flaw]
1B: Willing Deformity [Elder Evil Devotion]
3: Animal Devotion
5B Abominable Form [Elder Evil Devotion]
6: Imperious Command
9: Improved Sunder
10B: Insane Defiance [Elder Evil Devotion]
12: Craven
15: Magical Aptitude
15B Evil's Blessing [Elder Evil Devotion]
18: Earth Devotion
20B Harvester of Souls [Elder Evil Devotion]

Level-by-level breakdown:

1st level: Hexblade 1
You begin your life as an utterly underwhelming Hexblade 1. You can (and should) power attack, so on an average attack you'll be at +3 for 2d6+6/19-20 x2, for an average of 12 damage. You've got Cleave, which is nifty, and +3 to Intimidate from Willing Deformity, a bonus feat granted by worshipping an elder evil (Pandorym the Gargantuan sphere of annihilation). This is slightly cheesy, but given that the character will end up as an entropomancer (a spellcaster devoted to spheres of annihilation), Pandorym fit so well that it was difficult to resist.

More importantly, you have Dreadful Wrath, which means that on a charge, full attack, or spell that targets an opponent, all opponents within 20ft must make a Will save or become shaken (-2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks) for one minute. The save debuffing starts here, ladies and gentlemen.

Tactics:
R1:
Free: Hexblade's Curse on an opponent, DC 12 Will or -2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and damage rolls for one hour.
Full round: Charge an opponent, at +5 for 2d6+6. Hit or miss, that opponent and all others within 20ft must make a DC 12 Will save or become shaken.
Free: if the opponent dies, Cleave into adjacent foe

R2:
Move: move adjacent to a shaken foe
Standard: Intimidate check at +11, on failure that opponent is now frightened and must run away as fast as possible. Gain a free attack of opportunity on him as he flees.
OR: Standard: hit the foe with your greatsword.

Starting saves: Fort +3, Ref -1, Will +4
Starting equipment: Greatsword (50g), Chain shirt (100g), 50g on a masterwork item of intimidate, 50g to spend on whatever else you like (I like reach weapons and javelins).

2nd level: Hexblade 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1

Now you're is a Hexblade 1/Paladin of Tyranny 1. With with a masterwork greatsword you can smite good and power attack 1/day for +7 for 2d6+9/ 19-20 x2.

Tactics: If you're following my equipment build, then you'll also have a heavy warhorse. A heavy warhorse probably has as many HPs and does as much damage as you do at this level.

Equipment: Sell the chain shirt and greatsword (+75g), then upgrade to a breastplate (200g), a masterwork greatsword (350g), and a heavy warhorse (400g), and buy a lance, potions, scrolls, or other useful items.

3rd level: Hexblade 1/Paladin of Tyranny 2

At third level you get Law Devotion, which you'll be using for the next 17 levels. Technically Animal Devotion is more flexible (free flight!), but I can't see a disciple of Pandorym revering animals. You also get Divine Grace, which helps your saves considerably. And Deadly Touch, which is mostly useless.

Equipment: upgrade to full plate (1,500g) and a cloak of protection +1.

4th level: Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny 2

Another boost to saving throws. +1 to Charisma, so now Hexblade's Curse is DC 13 and Dreadful Wrath is DC 14.

Equipment: Enchant the full plate for +1, enchant the greatsword for +1.

5th level: Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny 3

A solid level here! Abominable Form means that whenever an opponent can see your undisguised form (nipple slip!), living opponents of lower level must save or become shaken for 3 rounds. Paladin of Tyranny 3 means that now opponents within 10ft of you have -2 to saves/skills/etc. And immunity to disease to boot.

Tactics:
R1:
Swift: Law Devotion for +3 to attacks or AC for 1 minute. Let's assume attacks.
Full round: Charge an opponent, at +10 for 2d6+15. Hit or miss, that opponent and all others within 20ft must make a DC 15 Will save or become shaken.
Free: Hexblade's Curse on an opponent, DC 14 Will or -2 to attacks, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and damage rolls for one hour. -2 to the save within 10ft from aura, possible -2 from shaken.
Free: if the opponent dies, Cleave into adjacent foe
Free: reveal your abominable form! All living foes of lower level must make a DC 19 Will save or become shaken (or frightened, since shaken+shaken = frightened) for 3 rounds. -2 to the save within 10ft from aura, possible -2 from shaken, possible -2 from Hexblade's Curse.

R2:
Move: move adjacent to a shaken or frightened foe
Standard: Intimidate check at +18, on failure that opponent is now frightened or panicked and must run away as fast as possible, possibly dropping his weapon. Gain a free attack of opportunity on him as he flees.
OR: Standard: hit the foe with your sword (Smite Good if applicable)

Saves: Fort +11, Ref +5, Will +11, +15/+9/+16 against arcane spells. (Cloak +1, Divine Grace +4, Arcane Resistance +4).
Equipment: Purchase a cloak of charisma +2 for 4K. You might be a little short for cash, but there's no purchases for next level anyhow.

6th level: Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 3

Finally Mettle (Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves) is ours! Imperious Command at 6th level means that intimidate attempts will cause opponents to cower for one round (doing nothing) and be shaken (or frightened or panicked) the next round.

Tactics:
As before, however now intimidate attempts will cause opponents to cower for one round (doing nothing) and be shaken (or frightened or panicked) the next round.

Equipment: Save up money for a bit, the next item is 5K and well worth it.

7th level: Hexblade 3/Paladin of Tyranny 4

Rebuke undead! While you won't rebuke anything much bigger than a pair of 4 HD skeletons, this ability powers your Law Devotion feat, allowing you to use it another 2 times per day (for 1 minute each use). Second, the Never Outnumbered feat means that now 1/encounter your Intimidate check (at +25) affects all opponents within 10ft (the same radius as your -2 save aura!) Finally, Fearsome armor allows you to do so as a move action, so you can attack and intimidate in the same round, or double intimidate!

And you gain a spell slot! Bane and Doom also further reduce saves, but I'd take divine favor or endure elements most of the time.

Tactics:
As before, however now intimidate attempts will cause all opponents within 10ft to cower for one round (doing nothing) and be shaken (or frightened or panicked) the next round, as a move action.

Equipment: Fearsome armor enchantment (5K, Drow of the Underdark)

8th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4

The treat here is the Dark Companion alternative class feature from the PHB II, giving another mobile -2 to attacks, saves, and skill checks. And you gain a spell slot from Hexblade! I'd go for Protection from Evil and Entropic Shield personally.

Tactics:
As before, however now the save reductions look like this: -2 (Curse), -2 (Shaken), -2 (Paladin aura), -2 (Dark Companion) for -4 to -8 at any given time.

Equipment: Dark Companion (100g), buy gloves of strength +2 and upgrade Vest of resistance +1

9th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 1


At last, you're a blackguard! You now have improved sunder, but I can't recommend using it in most fights. Poison use is the real gem of this level.

Poisons won't get mentioned much beyond this point, but they can be a very effective part of any fight, especially if there's a party spellcaster to make them magically for you. Giving reduced saving throws meshes perfectly with poisons. Drow Poison is only DC 13, but with -8 from your save reducers it becomes a hefty DC 21, for example. DC 27 Pit Fiend venom becomes DC 35, and the secondary effect of that is death.

Tactics:
As before, however now you can add poison to your greatsword and arrows. Do so!

Equipment: Buy poisons and a triple weapon capsule retainer (450g, C. Adv. - lets you apply up to 3 poisons to your weapon as a standard action). This is a good level to fill out your item slots with the cheap stuff like bracers and boots.

10th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 2

A new bonus feat: Insane Defiance. This feat allows you to shrug off a mind-affecting spell and drop it on somebody else with an additional -4 penalty to the save. Naturally, you want your party's wizard to hit you with a Dominate Person, which you then pass on to an opponent at a -4 penalty.

Besides that, Dark Blessing gives your Charisma to saves again.

Also, you gain another smite attack, more spells, and Law Devotion becomes +5 to attacks or AC. It's a good day to be evil. Some good blackguard spells: at this level blades of blood from PHB II for a little extra damage, while strategic charge from the Spell Compendium is a swift action to cast, and grants the Mobility feat.

Tactics:
As before, however now you can pass spells off from your party spellcaster.

Saves: Fort +21, Ref +11, Will +17, +25/+15/+22 against arcane spells. (Cloak +2, Divine Grace +4, Arcane Resistance +4, Dark Blessing +4).
Equipment: 9K - I'd grab a periapt of wisdom and a belt of constitution, and more poisons.

11th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 3

You gain a second aura of despair, which I'll assume doesn't stack with Paladin of Tyranny, since they share the same name and have the same effect. If it does, hey, free -2 again. Additionally, you can Command Undead, so now Law Devotion should be 5/day.

Second level blackguards spells are rock solid - they include gems like curse of ill fortune and wave of grief, which both debuff opponents with -3 to the usual lineup each (wave of grief as a 30ft cone, ill fortune with a long duration). So if you're planning to really drop an opponent's saves, these spells replace charging as a R1 option.

Tactics:
R1:
Move: Move up to within 10ft of opponents
Free: Hexblade's Curse (DC
As before, however now you can start the combat with an AOE save reducer of Wave of Grief, which will then trigger Dreadful Wrath. If everything works out, you could hit a group of opponents with -9 to saves, and then another -4 from insane defiance, at a staggering -13 to saves, and -15 to a cursed opponent.

Equipment: 13K here - upgrade cloak of charisma to +4!

12th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 4

You gain another +1 to Charisma, increasing all your saves and most of your ability DCs. At this point Hexblade's Curse should be DC 18, Dreadful Wrath should be DC 22, Abominable Form should be DC 21, Blackguard spells should be DC 15, and Intimidate should be at +33 or so. The 22 Charisma also means another bonus Hexblade spell and enough Rebuke/Command undead uses to have 7/day Law Devotion.

You gain +1d6 sneak attack, which is absolutely laughable in most situations. However, you also take the Craven feat at this level, which changes the sneak attack to 1d6+12. The dirt cheap Sudden Stunning enchantment from the DMG II allows you to set up your own sneak attack as a swift action for Cha times per day.

Tactics:
As before, but look for opportunities to sneak attack through flanking and stunning.

Equipment: 17K here with lots left over from previous levels! 16K makes your greatsword unholy, and 2K gets the Sudden Stunning enchantment from the DMG II.

13th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 5

Smite good 2/day, and a fiendish servant. I'm not even going to pretend that your new dire rat buddy will scratch the opponent, but it is good for free flanking and that juicy 1d6+13 sneak attack.

In addition, you also get 3rd level spells. This is a good thing for one particular spell on your list: Mass Resurgence (Spell Compendium). Basically, as a standard action you grant 1 ally/level a second save against something they failed. Considering that you probably will never fail a save, this means that you will be there to keep your party in the action whenever they screw up a saving throw.

By now your caster level is also high enough to consider a 2nd level spell, Blade of Pain and Fear. You deal touch attacks for pitiful damage, but every hit forces the subject to make a will save or become frightened.

Now is a good time to purchase a belt of battle, which greatly improves your flexibility by giving variable actions in return for your swift actions.

Tactics:
Not much new here, flanking becomes much easier, belt of battle gives more options, etc.

Equipment: 22K here - spend 12K on a belt of battle (MIC), and 5K on upgrading your vest of protection, and save up 5K.

14th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 6

All the saves improve and another 3rd level spell though. I'd put down the cash for a Ring of Evasion at this point.

Equipment: 22K here with another 5K from last level - spend 25K on a ring of evasion.


15th and 16th levels: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 1

Another +1d6 SA (Meh), and 4th level spells (Huzzah!). Some very choice picks here, especially Freedom of Movement. Additionally, Entropomancer 1! Shard of Entropy sucks though. Don't use it.

Law Devotion also becomes +7, which keeps it relevant. And a new elder evil feat - Evil's Blessing, which means you can spend a standard action at will to gain +Cha (+7) to saves a THIRD or FOURTH time for 5 rounds. Nifty stuff. +45 Fort against spells, anyone?

Tactics: Just more options and bigger numbers here.

Equipment: 40K at 15th -upgrade the vest for 16K, upgrade the cloak of charisma for 16K, and upgrade the armor by +2 for 8K. I'd do a massive overhaul of stat boosters at 16th and buy an item of flying, as well as a Tooth of Leraje from the Tome of Magic (1/day for 24 hours: Greater Magic Weapon (+5) to a weapon, costs 20K).[/spoiler]

20th level: Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5

I've skipped the last 3 levels since I want to skip to the good stuff.

Entropomancer 5 is nice: your 2/day Entropic Field now lasts 5 rounds, goes out to a 25ft radius, stops all divine healing, and 1/round forces people to reroll an attack, save, or skill check. In other words, force the opponent to make another save (at -13 or whatever) against the GOD's spell, or reroll his check against your intimidate check, or grant your ally another save as a free action (on top of your chances to do so with Mass Resurgence). Basically, Entropomancer 5 is the sweet, delicious icing on the top of your action-denying evil cake.

Damage swings around pretty rapidly at higher levels, and there's no healing inside your Entropic Field, so Improved Toughness is a quick and simple bandaid for that.

Finally, your fiendish servant now should have around 11 HD (8 bonus HD), and assuming you pick its feats, you can give it some very good feats, such as binding and improved binding for Focolor's -2 aura against saves. The fiendish servant shares your base saves, has SR, and improved evasion, so hopefully it won't die if something sneezes in its direction.

Hexblade's Curse should be DC 18, Dreadful Wrath should be DC 28, Abominable Form should be DC 25, Blackguard spells should be DC 15, and Intimidate should be at +40 or so.

Tactics:
Standard battle tactics:

R0: If you get the opportunity to prepare before battle, use Evil's Blessing for +Cha to saves again, buff with Freedom of Movement, or Winged Mount, and cast any swift action spells such as Strategic Charge or use Law Devotion.

R1:
Move: Move up to opponents (-6 to saves from Aura of Despair, Dark Companion, and Fiendish Servant's Focolor's Sadness)
Standard: Activate Entropic field (No magical healing within 25ft, force 1 reroll/round)
Free: Hexblade's Curse (DC 20) (-2 to saves if successful)
Swift: Belt of Battle (2 charges) for a standard action
Standard: Cast Wave of Grief (DC 17 or so, -3 to saves in 30ft cone) (Triggers Dreadful Wrath (DC 27) - now up to -13 to saves)
Free: Abominable Form (DC 25) - another chance to reduce opponents to shaken, or frightened if already shaken

R2:
Swift: Belt of Battle for a move action
Move: Intimidate (opponent goes straight to cowering)
Full round: full attack (+29/+24/+19/+14, for 2d6+14/19-20x2 (assuming 22 strength and +5 weapon), increased accordingly by power attack. Or with flanking and sneak attack, 4d6+34/19-20x2.

R3:
Swift: Law Devotion
Move: Intimidate
Standard: Attack or cast spell

Against foes immune to intimidate and mind-affecting (undead, constructs, vermin, oozes)
R1:
Move: Move up to opponents (-6 to saves from Aura of Despair, Dark Companion, and Fiendish Servant's Focolor's Sadness)
Standard: Activate Entropic field (No magical healing within 25ft, force 1 reroll/round)
Free: Hexblade's Curse (DC 20) (-2 to stuff if successful)
Swift: Belt of Battle (3 charges) for a full round action
Full round: Full attack (+29/+24/+19/+14, for 2d6+14/19-20x2 (assuming 22 strength and +5 weapon), increased accordingly by power attack. Or with flanking and sneak attack, 4d6+34/19-20x2.

R2:
Swift: Law Devotion
Full round: Full attack (+36/+31/+26/+21, for 2d6+14/19-20x2 (assuming 22 strength and +5 weapon from Tooth of Leraje), increased accordingly by power attack and any other buffs or equipment. Or with flanking and sneak attack, 4d6+34/19-20x2.


Saves: Fort +37, Ref +23, Will +33, +45/+31/+41 against arcane spells. (Vest +5, Divine Grace +8, Arcane Resistance +8, Dark Blessing +8).
Equipment: It's pretty campaign-dependent from this point. I'd recommend minor rods of enlarge spell (60ft Cone of Despair!), extend spell, quicken spell, etc.
Equipment that's come before: Cloak of Charisma +6, Gauntlets of Strength +6, Vest of Resistance +5, Ring of Evasion, Belt of Battle, +3 Fearsome Full Plate, +1 Unholy Sudden Stunning Greatsword, Tooth of Leraje, poisons, and various minor magical items. That comes to about 175,000gp, leaving a LOT of room for whatever magic items suit your fancy.

Skills:
1: Intimidate (4R), Hide (2R cross-class), Knowledge (Arcana) (4R)
2: Handle Animal +1 ranks, Ride +1 ranks, Hide +.5 rank
3: Ride +2 ranks, Hide +.5 rank
4: Intimidate +2 ranks, Hide +.5 rank
5: Hide +.5 rank, Knowledge (Religion) +2 ranks
6: Hide +.5 rank, Intimidate +2 ranks
7: Hide +.5 rank, Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered
8: Hide +.5 rank, Intimidate +1 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) +1 ranks
9: Intimidate +2 ranks, Concentration +1 rank
10: Intimidate +1 ranks, Ride +2 ranks
11: Intimidate +1 ranks, Ride +2 ranks
12: Intimidate +1 ranks, Ride +2 ranks
13: Intimidate +1 ranks, Ride +2 ranks
14: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
15: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
16: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
17: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
18: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
19: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
20: Intimidate +1 ranks, Concentration +2 ranks
Total: Intimidate 23 ranks, Concentration 15 ranks, Ride 11 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 5 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 2 ranks, Handle Animal 1 ranks

Some alternative builds:
Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 3/Divine Champion 4/Entropomancer 9
Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Binder 3

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:20 PM
A villain who thinks he's far more villainous than he is, I give you:

“I do every thing people ask me to and yet nobody accepts me, I am an outcast. A shadow of a man who can find no companionship, no love from others. Fine, if I am to be an outcast then so be it I’m through doing what others tell be to and I’m sick of this world and the stinking people in it. From now on I will dedicate myself life to bringing chaos to the world that has rejected me. I will become the greatest super-villian the world has ever seen. Where I go destruction will follow!

Prepare little town, prepare for the greatest super-villian you ever seen professor chaos.”

“Butters time for bed.”

“Yes, sleep for now for tomorrow the chaos begins!”

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/PrJCtZrO/profchaos_1280x1024.jpg&imgrefurl=http://tomopop.com/neca-s-gone-fisting-series-2-of-street-fighter-iv-figures-up-for-preorder--7531.phtml&usg=__v2tOr0ETiv31U4vJQCiyhFeYhpg=&h=819&w=1024&sz=95&hl=en&start=4&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=X0zgsxBXrYkDIM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Danime%2Bprofessor%2Bchaos%26um%3D1%26 hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsof t:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26tbs%3Disch:1


Professor Chaos Crusader 7/Divine Champion 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator(adapted to Gaustus) 4/ Contemplative 1/Entropomancer 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/ Contemplative 1/ Entropomancer 1

Str 32 (16 base+5 inherent+3tome+6 enhancement+2 size)
Dex 8 (base 10-2 size)
Con 22(16base+6 enhancement)
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 20 (14+6 enhancement)

HP: 7d10+11d8+2d6+120 avg 215
AC: 18 (10-1 size-1dex+9armor) 50% X2 1 is countered by dark vision but, works vs. true seeing the other can be countered by true seeing
AL: Chaotic Stupid I mean N (CN shifted to N at level 7) I visualize him being played by a guy who makes all his characters N, CN or CG and thinks that alignment means the character’s morals ar so mutable they can do whatever the player feels like at the moment.

BAB:16

Fort: 27(16base+6 con+2 feat+5 resistence)
Ref: 8 (4base-1 dex+5 resistence)
Will: 25 (14base+6 con+5 resistence)

Longsword +5 devoted spirit, flaming, spell storing (burning hands), causticAnarchic Surge, Caustic Surge, Fiery Surge (silly for the sake of silliness)
+35 to hit 1d10+36+1d6 fire+1d6 acid 16-20 X2 crit

Spells -,6,6,6,5,5,4,4,2,1


Spells known and memmed: 1-burning handsX6, Omen of Peril 2-AuguryX3, Produce FlameX3 3-resist energy(fire or cold only)X3, delay deathX3 4- wall of fireX4, bestow curseX1 5-stalwart pactX1, fire shieldX4 6-warp destinyX3, fire seedsX1 7- fire stormX3, greater bestow curseX1 8-moment of prescienceX2, incendiary cloud 9-choose destinyX1, elemental swarm(fire)

Feats
1 weapon focus longsword
3 great fortitude
6 improved trip
9 endurance
12 magical aptitude
15 steadfast determination
18 martial stance (immortal fortitude)

Readied Manuevers
Ancient Mountain Hammer
Revitalizing Strike
Divine Surge
Battle Leader’s charge
White Raven Tactics
Tide of Chaos

Misc abilities
Aeshkrau Str determins bonus spells for all classes, +2 Str checks, +2 caster level
Smite 1/day
Zealous Surge reroll 1 save 1/day
Indomitable Soul Cha mod to Will
Steely resolve 10
Furious Counter strike
Slippery Mind
Entropic Field


Spells cast:
Moment of Presience
Stalwart Pact (temp hp, +4 hit +4 damage, DR10/magic after reduced to ˝ hp)

Equipment
***Body: +1 heavy fortification adamantine plate mail 52,950gp
Throat: Amulet of Second Chances (40,000) with Amulet of Fortune Prevailing(5,000) +6 constitution, 83,500gp*****************
Shoulders: Mantle of Second Chances, +5 saves, +6 charisma 73,000gp shadow veil 32,000 Displacement 75,000
**Waist: +6 strength* 36,000
* Feet: Boots of Temporal Acceleration(43,000) with Boots of the Battle Charger (2,000) 46,000
***Slotless: Karma Bead x2 20,000, Dust of Dispersion(x10) 5,000
Manual of Bodily Health(read) 82,500
Scabbard of keen edges 16.000
Longsword +5 devoted spirit, flaming, spell storing (burning hands), Anarchic Surge, Caustic Surge, Fiery Surge 134,330
Slotless Dark lantern 4,000

Tactics:
Casts augury on numerous topics daily, activates moment of prescience to gain initiative, activates boots of temporal acceleration to cast recast moment of prescience, activate entropic field and cast choose destiny CHARGE!

Fun stuff: so choose destiny allows you to roll twice for everything this is handy for attacks, damage etc but most importantly saving throws because immortal fortitude allows you to make a save vs. the -hp a hit should bring you to stay conscious and alive so he rolls twice if he fails he expends the reroll from entropic field, if that fails he can use the amulet of fate, after that he has 1/day save reroll from crusader, which would be rolled twice, and he can cast warp destiny to reroll a save with a bonus equal to his caster level, there’s also the destiny domain ability which can force his opponent to reroll a attack roll or miss chance 1/day and finally he has an amulet of second chances to play that entire round over and get back his daily uses of all those rerolls. CHAOS!

Oh, he also has access to Fire Seeds and could carry a ton of Holly Bombs in a bag win initiative drop them at someones feet and run.

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:21 PM
One computer-savvy person submitted their build as a Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQL02a_U0qHgZGN4dGt3ejJfMTM5Zmd3ZzR0Z3E&hl=en)

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:22 PM
Here we have the very precise:


en·tro·py
1. Symbol S For a closed thermodynamic system, a quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work.
2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.
3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.
4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.
5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.



Build: Lesser Aasimar Duskblade 7/Divine Crusader of Tharzidun (madness) 8/Entropomancer 5

1)Weapon Focus (Dagger)
3)Magical Aptitude
Otyugh Hole: Great Fortitude
6)Extend Spell
9)Practiced Caster (Divine Crusader)
12)Melee Weapon Mastry (Slashing)
15)Extra Spell: Wraithstrike
18)Slashing Flurry

STR:14
DEX:12
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:10
CHA:28(+2 racial, 5 levels, 5 book)

Important items:
Slippers of battledancing (unsocketing)
Mithril Full Plate +1, soulfire, heavy fortification
Tome of Leadership +5
Cloak of Charisma +6
Adamantium Dagger +1, Stunning Surge. Any other enhancements are gravy
Wings of Flight
Leftovers can be spent however liked.

Level 5: Plays like a basic Duskblade at this point, doing most of his damage through spells, enjoying casting two sometimes with his quick cast, mostly relying on being highly mobile and a good AC. His to-hit is a bit shaky, but that's easily taken care of by using a True Strike when it's really needed. Ranks in Knowledge (Religion) to qualify, some crossclass Perform (Dance) for later on too.

Level 10: Starts to grow into his Divine capacity, I would personally consider this to be a weak point of the build. Not as strong as if he had just stayed as a Duskblade, but with a few more options for what spells he throws into his casting, getting a few save vs suck spells to work with.

Level 15: Now we're getting somewhere. With 8th level spells being thrown around, we can quick cast a wraithstrike, then throw a Maddening Scream into Arcane Channeling, for some especially funny moments. Just hope they don't have good SR because your a bit behind on CL. By now you should have your slippers of battledancing, so your Hit/Damage will drastically improve there. You don't really do much for full attack actions, preferring to channel, maybe throwing a Quick Cast Confusion out if need be. One can never have too many ways of making combat random!

Level 20: Now you're a full Entropic bamf. Entropic field lets you reroll bad saves/attacks when needed, or reroll their good saves/attacks, you can slashing flurry your way through two people per arcane channeling, and against groups you can throw a Weird into their midst if you really need some options. Best at 1v1, but with some work can do some crazy things to a full melee. BAB 16, 9th level casting. Seems like a crazy gish to me.

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:24 PM
And last, but by no means least, we have


Let's take a look at the what the Entropomancer can do. First, the entry requirements:

Alignment: Any nongood.
Skills: Concentration 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Feats: Great Fortitude, Magical Aptitude.
Spells: Able to cast 4th-level divine spells.

Dear lord these entry requirements are terrible! Know(arcana) is pretty rare on a divine build, so we'd have to find something for that.
Great Fortitude and Magical Aptitude are just terrible feats, so we'll just have to suck it up.
4th level divine spells means this class can be entered at lvl 8 at it's earliest (cleric entry).

Special abilities:

Shard of Entropy: this ability is pretty meh. The 7d6 damage at lvl 20 isn't a lot, especially when you consider this is a 'light' Sphere of Annihilation you're throwing around. The fact that you can direct it with a move action is pretty cool, though it is limited to 2/day, which sucks.

The bull rush ability is pretty nify, but with a +11 modifier, you're not pulling a lot of mobs in.

Entropic Field: this is a pretty cool ability. Basically, if this is up, stuff will start dying. I'm a bit confused by its wording though. The intent seems to be that it blocks all Conjuration (Healing) spells, but the way its written also includes every other magical effect. Personally, I think healing from negative energy (such as inflict spells) should work, but by RAW it doesn't.

Control Sphere: unless you can find a way to get that sphere of annihilation, this ability is useless.

Spellcasting: this class progresses 5/10. Usually this is pretty bad, and in this case it still is. However, we might find a way to make this work.

Building the character:

Now, there's a couple of ways we can go about creating a good Entropomancer. Because of 5/10 spellcasting we have to make a choice though: focus on spellcasting or combat.
I say: we can do both.

Now, the character I want to build should have the following:
- a good BAB or a way to get one.
- 8th or 9th level spells by lvl 20.
- some way to use the Entropomancers abilities.

The build


Warning: this build uses two things from Unearthed Arcana: the variant paladin and LA buy-off. The build is still workable without these, but I feel they are common and would be allowed by most DM's.

LA will be bought off at levels 6 and 9. If LA buy-off is considered too cheesy, the template can easily be removed. All it does is add a little flavor.

Eruth Taal (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=189178) CR20
Male Entropic Human Paladin of Slaughter/Hexblade/Divine Crusader/Contemplative/Entropomancer, Level 4/3/3/1/9,
Lawful Evil Medium Outsider (extraplanar)
Init +0 senses: darkvision 60ft
Languages: Common, Infernal

AC 25, Touch 15, Flat-footed 25,
HP 137, Speed 20ft
Fort +34, Ref +16, Will +27 (+12 bonus to all vs spells & spell-like effects)
Base Attack Bonus +15
Melee: Flaming, Frost, Shock, Ghost Touch Morningstar +1 (wielded 2h) [/B] +24 (1d8+11+3d6), x2)
Ranged: every 1d4 rounds, ranged touch attack Negative Energy Ray +14 (1d4+12, x2)
Combat gear: Fullplate +1 of Freedom, Heavy Steel Shield +1 of Heavy Fortification, Ring of Protection +5 (+9 Armor, +1 Shield, +5 Deflect)
Abilities Str 24, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 34
Feats: Tomb-tainted Soul, Weapon Focus (morningstar), Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Magical Aptitude, Extend Spell, Holy Warrior, Divine Metamagic, Persist Spell
Skills: concentration +29, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (Religion) +24, Knowledge (Arcana) +17
Special abilities: Smite Good, Deadly Touch, Debilitating Aura, Rebuke Undead 15/day, Hexblade's Curse 1/day, Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Resistance to electricity 5, Divine Health, Shards of Entropy 7d6 (consuming) 2/day, Entropy Field 2/day (wounding)

Spell list (domains: War, Trickery):
1st: Magic Weapon, Disguise Self
2nd: Spiritual Weapon, Invisibility
3rd: Magic Vestment, Nondetection
4th: Divine Power, Confusion
5th: Flame Strike, False Vision
6th: Blade Barrier, Mislead
7th: Power Word Blind, Screen
8th: Power Word Stun, Polymorph Any Object
9th: Power Word Kill, Time Stop


Class choices:

Paladin of Slaughter: in order to get into Divine Crusader, we need +7 BAB and a couple of skills in Know(religion). Paladin of Slaughter provides both of those, and gives us a good CHA synergy in Divine Grace and Deadly Touch.
Hexblade: the Hexblade is here to give us Know(arcana) in order to get into Entropomancer. Also Mettle and Arcane Resistance are nice bonusses.
Divine Crusader: this is where we'll be getting our spellcasting from. This class is a lot weaker than the Ur Priest we could have been using, but I like the Divine Crusader: Erynthul is chosen as a deity, who gives us the War domain. War gives us a couple of good spells, including Divine Power, the spell we need to get us a decent BAB. The Domain ability is useless as we need Weapon Focus to enter the class.
Contemplative: this class is only here for one reason: to expand our spell-list. Grabbing one extra Domain essentially doubles our spell-list. We'll grab Trickery, to get us Invisibility, PAO and Time Stop, as well as a couple of other good spells.
Entropomancer: I feel the class comes in a bit late, but using Divine Crusader, we can't enter earlier than 12. This means we'll lose out on the Entropomancer's capstone (boo! hiss!) but we do grab all the other goodies.



Level breakdown


Levels 1-7

Eruth, being an entropic creature, starts at ECL 3. But because we can buy off the levels I'll just list him as starting at level 1.
Anyway, Eruth starts pretty much as a melee beast, armed with a morningstar and a heavy shield. Because of tomb-tainted soul, he can heal himself with his own entropic energy. Because he's pretty MAD, he won't be a melee monster yet, but he'll cope. Also, his early feat choices are filled with entry requirements, so not much help there...

His Negative Energy Aura is pretty handy at lower levels, but also means he cannot travel with living comrades. Undead and other entropic creatures will probably be his friends.


Levels 8-11

At level 8 Eruth enters Divine Crusader and gains his first spells. For now, they're a small bonus and Eruth will continue fighting on the front ranks. His magic item selection is focused on a good weapon and STR and CHA increasing items.
Also, at this level his LA is bought off, so he'll level as quickly as other characters now.
At level 11 He'll enter Contemplative and essentially double his spell selection. He'll also gain access to Divine Power, which means from now on he'll keep his full BAB.

Levels 12-20

At level 12 2 cool things happen. First he gains the Holy Warrior feat, which means he'll get a bonus to attack rolls as long as he has spells left. Second, Eruth finally enters Entropomancer.
He'll use both his Entropomancer abilities only in dangerous fights, this because the Shard and the Field are only 2/day. At level 15 he'll finally be able to use those impressiv 15 rebuke attempts/day with Divine Metamagic. He'll get Persist at lvl 18 where he'll be able to keep up his buffs throughout the day. At level 19 Eruth gains access to 9th level spells.

Eruth will stick to the front-line most of the time, falling back only when his health gets too low. In that case he'll use his Negative Energy Ray and Shards of Entropy.

The combination of his Negative Energy Aura and his Entropic Field means everyone starts bleeding the moment they get near him. Blade Barrier is a good synergy with this as well.

Magic item selection should mainly be focused on melee combat and CHA increases. I've made a small selection already from the DMG, but he's not up to WBL.

Combat:
Eruth usually starts combat with Divine Power and Magic Vestment on both his armour and his shield persisted. Giving him 20 BAB and an effective +8 AC. If he knows enemies are looking for him he will cast Mislead, Non-detection and Disguise Self into a frail old woman. By the time his opponents have found his true location they will have taken a few rounds of damage from his Negative Energy Aura and Entropic Field, which results in a constant bleeding.
When he enters the fray Eruth will Power Attack the weakest members down first before he moves on to his larger opponents. When the odds are stacked against him he will cast Time Stop and polymorph into a suitably large monster (such as a Red Dragon or a Beholder).


Books, feats, etc.

ACFs used:
Holy Warrior: grants extra feat at 4th level.

Books used:
Unearthed Arcana (Paladin of Slaughter, LA buy-off, fractional bab/saves)
Complete Divine (Divine Crusader, Contemplative, Entropomancer)
Planar Handbook (entropic template)
Libris Mortis (tomb-tainted soul)
Complete Champion (Holy Warrior, various feats)


Required Feats:
Tomb-tainted Soul (human bonus)
Weapon Focus (morningstar) (1st)
Great Fortitude (3th)
Power Attack (Holy Warrior)
Magical Aptitude (6rd)
Extend Spell (9th)
Holy Warrior (12th)
Divine Metamagic (15th)
Persist Spell (18th)

Heliomance
2010-03-04, 08:26 PM
So! There you have the builds! Judges, remember points are scored for style, control, damage and aggression originality, power, flavour and use of the secret ingredient. 1 to 5 points in each, highest total wins!

Akal Saris
2010-03-04, 10:02 PM
Heliomance, you might want to edit the posts - my name is in the body of my submission as well. Not that I think it matters a lot, since the judges probably don't know any of the contestants anyhow.

Total # of builds using fast advancement: 5/7
Total # of builds using a save debuffing tactic: 2/7



Summary of builds:

The eeeevil tanks:

Human Fighter 6/Witch Slayer 1/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5/Witch Slayer +1

LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5

The divine crusaders:

Lesser Aasimar Duskblade 7/Divine Crusader of Tharzidun (madness) 8/Entropomancer 5

Crusader 7/Divine Champion 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator(adapted to Gaustus) 4/ Contemplative 1/Entropomancer 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/ Contemplative 1/ Entropomancer 1

Entropic Human Paladin of Slaughter 4/Hexblade 3/Divine Crusader 3/Contemplative 1/Entropomancer 9

The ur-priests:

Female Human Savage Bard 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 5/Seeker of the Song 6

Duskblade 5/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 6/Ur-Priest +1


Others not submitted:

Some sort of Drunken Master build? Maybe Monk 6/Drunken Master 5/Divine Champion 4/Entropomancer 5 would work? (Just a guess on my part)

Mistling Petal XX 2/Entropomancer 10

Cleric 5/Entropomancer 10/Monk 1/Master Thrower 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 1 - relies on bleeding damage

And an alternative build by Jorath included in the post: Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 3/Divine Champion 4/Entropomancer 9 (Do these seem combinations seem familiar yet or what?) :D

Tehnar
2010-03-04, 10:33 PM
Just to note, a Entropomancer needs 4th level spells and Divine Crusaders provide only 1 4th level spell. Its really a very minor nitpick and I think any sane DM would allow that to qualify.

Almost every build used Unearthed Arcana material even though its discouraged.:smallfrown:

imperialspectre
2010-03-04, 10:54 PM
"4th level spells" does not, by RAW, require you to cast more than 1 spell per day. Otherwise, a wizard with 14 Intelligence wouldn't be able to qualify for a PrC that requires "able to cast 4th level spells."

Tehnar
2010-03-04, 10:57 PM
I was thinking of spells know, not spell slots. But as I pointed it out as a point of interest rather then a build deficiency or something like that.

As that would also preclude sorcerers from entering some prestige classes as well.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-04, 11:13 PM
Well then sorcerer 6 wouldn't qualify for classes requiring 3rd lvl spells.

Oh, and two of the divine crusader builds have a contemplative dip before they enter entropomancer so they have two 4th level spells known.

woops you said the sorceror thing yourself.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-05, 12:04 AM
Well, I was hoping someone would have both Entropomancer and Entropist (Lords of Darkness, a FR book). But that would be pretty hard to make effective.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-05, 12:41 AM
In my experience even people with large pdf libraries only have a small collection of campaign specific and it's often the same/best stuff ie lots of people have unapproachable East because it has 3-4 popular PrC's and a feat useful to uberchargers.

Myself I've never heard of that class but, I definately would have tried to do something with it.

Oh if this contest is repeated in the near future I have a suggestion for a secret ingredient any of the numerous crappy skill monky PrC's that give slow or no SA advancement, less than 8+int skill points and grants SLA's you could easily have bought in item form or asked the wizard for nicely sice it's from like his third highest spell slot.

Akal Saris
2010-03-05, 12:55 AM
Yeah, I have Lords of Darkness because the Zhentarim Skymage is awesome, but I never even glanced at the entropist.

And wow...looking it over, the Entropist is even worse than the entropomancer! That's horrible! I mean, yeah, these people are stupid enough to worship a freaking sphere of annihilation, but this PrC is awful. Savage Bard 5/Ur-Priest 4/Entropist 5/Entropomancer 6 would still get 9th level spells, but it would be paiiinful to watch.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is the epic binder (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080407a), who can summon his own honest-to-god sphere of annihilation by binding Tkhaluuljin "the Cephalopocalypse"

OK, so it takes a Binder 27 to summon him. But...free sphere of annihilation, 27 rounds a day! THAT is cool!

BooNL
2010-03-05, 03:42 AM
Heliomance, you might want to edit the posts - my name is in the body of my submission as well. Not that I think it matters a lot, since the judges probably don't know any of the contestants anyhow.

Total # of builds using fast advancement: 5/7
Total # of builds using a save debuffing tactic: 2/7



Summary of builds:

The eeeevil tanks:

Human Fighter 6/Witch Slayer 1/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5/Witch Slayer +1

LE Human Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 7/Entropomancer 5

The divine crusaders:

Lesser Aasimar Duskblade 7/Divine Crusader of Tharzidun (madness) 8/Entropomancer 5

Crusader 7/Divine Champion 1/ Ruby Knight Vindicator(adapted to Gaustus) 4/ Contemplative 1/Entropomancer 4/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/ Contemplative 1/ Entropomancer 1

Entropic Human Paladin of Slaughter 4/Hexblade 3/Divine Crusader 3/Contemplative 1/Entropomancer 9

The ur-priests:

Female Human Savage Bard 3/Human Paragon 2/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 5/Seeker of the Song 6

Duskblade 5/Ur-Priest 4/Entropomancer 6/Ur-Priest +1


Others not submitted:

Some sort of Drunken Master build? Maybe Monk 6/Drunken Master 5/Divine Champion 4/Entropomancer 5 would work? (Just a guess on my part)

Mistling Petal XX 2/Entropomancer 10

Cleric 5/Entropomancer 10/Monk 1/Master Thrower 1/Fighter 2/Swordsage 1 - relies on bleeding damage

And an alternative build by Jorath included in the post: Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 3/Divine Champion 4/Entropomancer 9 (Do these seem combinations seem familiar yet or what?) :D

It seems most went with a fighter-like build. Ur-priest was to be expected ofcourse, as well as its lesser cousin the Divine Crusader.

I'm curious who build what character and what the judges think of them. Though from the submissions we can at least draw this conclusion: there isn't a lot you can do with the Entropomancer.

Signmaker
2010-03-05, 05:04 AM
Well, I was hoping someone would have both Entropomancer and Entropist (Lords of Darkness, a FR book). But that would be pretty hard to make effective.

Agreed. I was half-expecting someone to note the need for a Sphere of Annihilation, just to say "X character can drive a Sphere to work. Vroom vroom."

Judging will commence tomorrow when I'm in a right frame of mind, though I share Tehnar's viewpoint. Boo. :smallfrown:

BooNL
2010-03-05, 05:10 AM
Almost every build used Unearthed Arcana material even though its discouraged.:smallfrown:

To be fair, the only things used were pretty common. Granted flaws are a bit cheesy and should be DM specific, stuff like variant classes is common enough that almost every DM I know allows them (even in core only games).

Tehnar
2010-03-05, 05:24 AM
I'm also not against the usage of Unearthed Arcana material, I just feel it would be better for future contests to define what does discouraged mean.

Heliomance
2010-03-05, 05:52 AM
Thought: Rename the flavour judging category as elegance, and have use of flaws etc knock a point or two off it.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-05, 10:37 AM
To be fair, the only things used were pretty common. Granted flaws are a bit cheesy and should be DM specific, stuff like variant classes is common enough that almost every DM I know allows them (even in core only games).

There are many many DMs who do the same with Flaws.

BenTheJester
2010-03-05, 10:43 AM
There are many many DMs who do the same with Flaws.

Flaws are more a 50/50 occurrence.

Variant classes seem fine, as long as they aren't TOO cheesy(oh how I hate Cloistered Cleric and how it is superior in every way to the normal Cleric)

Wings of Peace
2010-03-05, 10:57 AM
Flaws are more a 50/50 occurrence.

Variant classes seem fine, as long as they aren't TOO cheesy(oh how I hate Cloistered Cleric and how it is superior in every way to the normal Cleric)

To use an example measurable by all here I would claim that I have actually seen Flaws used with greater or at least equal frequency to the majority of variant classes on these forums with similar trends on the WOTC Char Op forums and the Brilliant Gameologists Min/Max forums.

Cloistered Cleric while popular is only a single variant class out of Unearthed Arcana and so doesn't represent the general popularity of the variant classes within the book. For example I know many DMs who do not allow certain variant classes such as the Paladin of Tyranny/Paladin of Slaughter because they see it as a cop out instead of taking Black Guard. Whether they're right or wrong is unimportant the point is that to only cite the popular variants will create an inaccurate statistic.

Edit: In fairness I don't know if it's proper to base estimates of how popular flaws/variant classes are on personal experience for either of us as personal experience is subjective.

AbyssKnight
2010-03-05, 08:18 PM
Drusilla, Harbinger of Winter
Ex-Druid 5/ Hexblade 1/ Blighter 4/ Entropomancer 10

I imagine Drusilla as a member of the Children of Winter, a druidic sect in Eberron that embraces death and decay as a normal part of nature. The seek to hasten the coming of Winter, a time when all living things will be tested and the weak will die.

Druid 5

The Children of Winter consider the Gloaming holy, an part of the forest that connects to Mabar, the plane of Shadow. Members of the CoW sometimes tap into the dark powers of the Gloaming, becoming Warlocks or Hexblades.

Druid 5/ Hexblade 1

Realizing that the true power of Winter comes directly from the destruction of life. Thus Drusilla forsakes the normal druid oaths for the path of the Blighter.

Ex-Druid 5/ Hexblade 1/ Blighter 4

Futher realizing the true nature of Winter, and its connection to the shadows and dark energy of Mabar, Drusilla taps into pure destructive energy, anathema not only to life but to creation itself.

Ex-Druid 5/ Hexblade 1/ Blighter 4/ Entropomancer 10

The low point will be level 7, as you lose all druid abilities when you become a Blighter.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-05, 08:49 PM
Just thought of something funny, boring as it is I think Cleric or druid 14/Entropomancer 6 would be stronger than most of the above builds(including mine).

I'll be interested to see how different judges weigh things like following the vague rule of UA discouraged.

In the episodes maybe some ground rules should be set for optimization (like somebody said the beastmaster competition forbade ubermount). That could be interesting. I'll refrain from saying what I'd make the rules for this competition since some builds violate the rules I would have made.

Amphetryon
2010-03-05, 09:42 PM
Mine was Spellscale (free empower, yum) Spirit Shaman 6/Divine Oracle 2/Stormcaster 2/Entropomancer 10, for a Mailman-theme.

Soonerdj
2010-03-05, 10:15 PM
I never really got to finish mine, my computer died but I wanted to use the immunity granted by the capstone of entropomancer and Translocation Trick from the SC to switch places with people so they would feed my Sphere of Annihilation their souls.

I just was stuck trying to boost the DC for a 3rd level arcane spell so it would still be relevant by the time I got to the capstone of the class.

Akal Saris
2010-03-05, 11:13 PM
Drusilla, Harbinger of Winter
Ex-Druid 5/ Hexblade 1/ Blighter 4/ Entropomancer 10

The low point will be level 7, as you lose all druid abilities when you become a Blighter.

And the high point of the build will be Druid 5, when you're still a druid!

I think this would have been a very different challenge if the characters were specifically given a sphere of annihilation so that they could build a character around using it. Though then I guess Entropist 1 would have been a better choice anyhow :P

AbyssKnight
2010-03-05, 11:51 PM
And the high point of the build will be Druid 5, when you're still a druid!


Oh come on! Its not that bad, and besides you are still have all druid abilities at 6th level. :P And you do get 9th level spells by 20th level.

I would say you are fine 1-6, take a big step backward at 7th, but I think you come back into your own around 14th level. It would be faster except for Entropomancer having half casting.

I know, Blighter doesn't have the best spell list or anything, but getting high level spells period means you can contribute.

Akal Saris
2010-03-06, 04:33 AM
Yeah, I was just being silly

It's not like the build's unplayable or anything, it's about as good as any I've seen for entropomancer, I guess. And it would be a bit lonely to have every fast progression divine caster represented here except for the blighter :P

clockworkmonk
2010-03-06, 12:32 PM
CLockworkmonk, reporting to judge!

Some notes on how I'm scoring.
The first three, by their very nature, are innately subjective, and will be treated as so.

but notes on each.
Originality will be based on the number of similar builds in this competition alone (as this seems the appropriate place, as everyone used unearthed arcana when it was discouraged, the highest anyone will score here is a 4)

Power Will be judged on how I count power, which will depend entirely on how you intend your build to work, so if you build a solid tier 3 character, it will not be judged against a tier 2 power level.

Flavor[b/] will pretty much be how much I like it.

[b]Use of Secret ingredient will be a score based on dividing the levels in Entropomancer by 2, rounding up.

So, lets begin.
build 1, Fayne Parthinia

Originality: one of the two ur-priest builds: 2
Power: She seems very capable at handeling herself at the levels presented. lots of solid utility, which I like. 4
Flavor:I like the history, and overall the build feels right. 4
Use of Secret ingredient: 3

build 2, Lothar Shattershield

Originality: one of the two blackguards, and one of two to not use fast progression. 4
Power: A solid melee build with some skill vs. healers. while healing is a suboptimal tactic, it fits nice with the fighter build you have presented and happens because of the secret ingredient. 3
Flavor: I like the concept and execution of the knight of decay and how it all pulls togther just is really nice for a character used for setting purposes, which I rather like.3
Use of Secret ingredient: 3

build 3, Jorath, Hand of Annihilation

Originality: one of the two blackguards, and one of two to not use fast progression. 4
Power: another solid build and it is executed in a different way that is more spellcasting and still the melee heal-denying villain. 3
Flavor: Again, I like the concept of this build, though much of what I said for Lothar applies here. 3
Use of Secret ingredient: 3

build 4, Butters

Originality: one of the 3 crusader builds: 1
Power: quite strong in his chosen role, as a melee charger. 3
Flavor: The name and background made me laugh, as I happen to be a big fan of South Park, but I personally prefer streamlined builds using as few classes as possible, and all the classes feels a bit clunky. 2
Use of Secret ingredient: 1

build 5, Daniel Cromswell

Originality: One of the two Ur-Priest builds, but uses ghostwalk, a book no one else touched:3
Power: Is very hard to hit, and is able to cast spells rather freely at them, on account of being dead. 4
Flavor: Backstory is great. Something I might use as a villain in a campaign. 4
Use of Secret ingredient: 3

build 6, Unnamed

Originality: one of the 3 crusader builds: 1
Power: A solid caster, but hard to judge entirely as presented: 2
Flavor: not much in the way of story, but I do like that it uses the least number of classes: 3
Use of Secret ingredient: 3

build 7, Eruth Taal

Originality: one of the 3 crusader builds: 1
Power: A solid caster and a solid gish. 4
Flavor: Light on the story, but overall feels very nice to me 3
Use of Secret ingredient: 5, the only build to get full marks on use of secret ingredient.

summing it all up:
build 1: 13
build 2: 13
build 3: 13
build 4: 7
build 5: 14
build 6: 9
build 7: 13

Wings of Peace
2010-03-07, 07:00 AM
This isn't directed specifically at Clockworkmonk as he may have factored this in, however, his post did make me think about it. Judging secret ingredient purely by the amount of Entropomancer levels taken becomes imbalanced when used on both level 20 and non-level 20 builds as it gives a clear mathematical advantage to the level 20s who had those extra 5 levels to work with as opposed to the below level 20 builds who chose to leave the later levels open for the player to decide upon with their own discretion.

BenTheJester
2010-03-07, 10:15 AM
This isn't directed specifically at Clockworkmonk as he may have factored this in, however, his post did make me think about it. Judging secret ingredient purely by the amount of Entropomancer levels taken becomes imbalanced when used on both level 20 and non-level 20 builds as it gives a clear mathematical advantage to the level 20s who had those extra 5 levels to work with as opposed to the below level 20 builds who chose to leave the later levels open for the player to decide upon with their own discretion.

I agree, IMHO, that category should be rated on how much the secret ingredient's class features are incorporated in the build strategy/course of action

In example, most of the builds submitted seem to make use only of the level 5 aura and ignore the rest(yes I know, the rest isn't that great).
As a counter-example, the non-submitted build that suggested using Setting Sun maneuvers to throw people into your shard should get 4-5 points

clockworkmonk
2010-03-07, 11:41 AM
I'll probably revisit it tomorrow. It was very early and things weren't making lots of sense. I just wanted to get a start, and then my sleepy parts told me to post it.

term1nally s1ck
2010-03-07, 11:59 AM
I'm wishing I actually built the bloodstorm blade now...ricocheting enemies through the shard and back 4-5 times a turn seems pretty effective to me, and I'm sure I could fit it into the build. I'd have to use some tricksy classes and feats to be able to grab enemies and throw them effectively, though.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-07, 12:57 PM
In example, most of the builds submitted seem to make use only of the level 5 aura and ignore the rest(yes I know, the rest isn't that great).

Ya I thought about this myself, I'd thought about cross classing a bunch of hide and move silently and having a tactic of using the orb to cut through locks; it ignores hardness and I see no reason it shouldn't be silent. I scrapped it because I didn't think it would fit flavor wise and because in most games max cross class ranks in hide and move silently will never be useful. I run more sandbox type games where you might have a reason to break into a place a 3rd level thief could roll over when your level 10 and there are adventure hooks at level 1 to collect bounties on CR 12's.

Since most people don't play in worlds like that I thought it might sound like I was falsely suggesting my build could fill a skill monkey role.

On the otherhand I think that both how many/how heavily abilities and how many levels of entropomancer are taken are both legitimate measures of use of secret ingredient and I'm sure there will be judges on both sides.

Brendan
2010-03-07, 04:07 PM
Time to judge and see whose cuisine dnd talents reign supreme.

for originality, I judge by how your classes and feat choices compare to either what I feel is blatantly obvious, or to the other submissions.

for power, I judge by how well it could be used in a game to defeat anything thrown at it without just stamping on the DMs plans and face. if you have some sort of insta-win that means that if someone thinks nasty thoughts of your character they die, I will frown. If you are a lv 20 commoner, I will also frown. If it is strong enough to do amazingly in a fight, but not to ruin a game, I will smile.

for flavor, I judge by how well the character could do out of theory and in real gaming. if your class is absolutely malleable and has a great idea behind it rather than "ooh, and he deals 1000 damage per round!!!", you will do well in this category. this is the most "does the class look fun" section.

For use o' secret ingredient, I just look at how much the class influences your build. If it is just one level, but every single feat, skill, level and ability are set up to make that part delicious, it could work, but the max is a 4/5. if you use it for 10 levels, chances are you will get a 5/5.

anyways, here is the judging of the classes.


Fayne:
originality: 2/5
unearthed arcana and Ur priest together are not complementing this score, but overall it seems like a good combination to fulfill your idea. if you used a slightly different path, no doubt it would have been a 5. Also, lots of others used some fairly similar classes and ideas.

Power: 4/5
very nice without being totally gamebreaking. I like that you did not advance ur-priest too far.

Flavor: 5/5
this was by far my favorite part of your meal. it had a good story and everything fit together well. good job.

Use of secret ingredient: 2/5
I didn't really see why it was needed for any reason other than numbers. it was used for only five levels, and didn't seem totally necessary.


overall: 13/20


lothar Shatterhand

originality: 5/5
you really had your own character that had it's own ideas. not just the same formula. I liked that.

power: 3/5
I like the saves and how you were able to make a fighter base fairly viable and totally able to hold it's own. the combo seemed on par with about a tier 3 or so. Still, I feel there could have been a bit more shiny stabby powerful abilities.

flavor: 4/5
The class could definitely be used to do a fun campaign and it all fits together well.

Use of secret ingredient: 2/5
although the class was utilized for the no healing aura, which almost all of the others used extensively, it seemed a bit out of place.

overall: 14/20


Jorath:

originality: 5/5:
I really like how you capitalize on things that no one else used at all. the uber intimidation and mega save lowering seemed quite well thought out and planned. i like the idea.

power: 4/5:
you made someone who could make the caster's lives much easier and still go stabby on the bad guys. this guy would be loved by everyone in the party, because he helps them all out. Nice.

flavor: 4/5:
This is a guy I could see running around in a campaign. nice job on it.

Use of secret ingredient: 3/5:
this prc was used well and was necessary and I love the use of the rerolls, but it could have been utilized a bit more. quite good.

finally, Thank you for the precision and 17/20 levels shown. that made it possible to show how much the character could survive at ALL levels.

overall: 16/20


butters
originality: 3/5
there were several other crusader builds, but you also were able to adapt it to your own methods.

power: 3.5/5
it fit very well into the frontline killer area, and seems to have a good way to not ever die.

flavor: 2/5
the large number of classes seemed like a bit of a burden, so the average DM would likely throw a book at you. however, I like the personality it holds.

use of secret flavor: 1/5
sorry, but what i said about 1 level being fine was only if it REALLY complemented the character. it seemed like an afterthought.


Danny Cromwell

originality: 3/5
I like the way things fit together, but ur priest is too big a focus.

power: 4/5
it is 9th level spells and incorporeal with some other fun bonuses. great without gamebreaking.

flavor: 4/5
I like the story, but dead serial killer has been done. it fits together superbly, though. I can imagine this being used in a campaign.

use of secret ingredient: 3/5
the class is used for a couple of nice abilities, but is still a good part of the whole. still, I feel like ur-priest overtook it.

overall: 14/20



OED:

originality: 3/5
I like the low number of multiclassing, but you have used the overused crusader, which I can't give over a 3/5 for. nice idea though.

power: 4/5
9th casting plus nice abilities is very nice. difficult to make out the exact details in the format, though.

flavor: 2/5
I needed to see a story or something. not just numbers.

use of ingredient: 3/5
you utilized quite a few powers very well.


overall: 12/20


Eruth Taal

originality: 3/5
crusader was overused, but otherwise, I love the choices. you were able to fit a lot into the levels.

power: 4/5
nice strong gishy caster. not too squishy or too irritating.

flavor: 3/5
add a story and you're golden.

use of ingredient: 5/5
nice 9 levels of it. everyone else was gone by 6 or lower.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-07, 11:00 PM
Okay now that it's happened twice I'm going to have to post openly. Professor Chaos has 5 levels of entropomancer he takes 4 levels as right after his RKV levels and then 1 more at level twenty. I did this for two reasons first to take some right away both to show I wasn't shying away from taking entro by going X15/Entro5 and to make entropic field 2/day a virtual capstone to the build.

BooNL
2010-03-08, 03:41 AM
I've been doing quite well so far, I *really* didn't expect that.

Cieyrin
2010-03-09, 04:07 PM
There's one point of contention that I'd like to point out that bugs me personally and that's on Daniel Cromwell as a Ghostwalk ghost in that he completely ignores the Calling, which in book states that while a Ghost, you can only take levels in Eidilon and Eidiloncer and if your Eidilon/Eidiloncer levels exceeded your other class levels, you were pulled to the other side of the Veil and into nonplayability.

While there is an option for No Calling, it's a point that should be looked upon carefully and by no means is meant as an offense against the creator, who created an otherwise interesting and refined entry for this contest. The Calling is meant to act as a balance against the template and the features that are opened up by being a Ghostwalk ghost and should be judged on such a basis.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Tehnar
2010-03-09, 09:44 PM
I am not familiar with Elder Evils book, how do those bonus feats work? But nice catch on worshiping a mega entropic sphere deity.

Akal Saris
2010-03-11, 01:49 AM
The Missing Judges:
Tackyhillbillu
Lostfang
Signmaker

Tehnar: The feats are in the "Evil Does Not Sleep" chapter. Basically, in return for a character swearing to serve the elder evil, that character gets a feat at 1st/5th/10th/15th/20th level, drawn only from the very small list of vile feats in Elder Evils.

Unfortunately, for most character builds the feats are very weak. It was mostly luck that the feats in Elder Evils worked well with my concept. I knew about them mostly because I had previously made a "Zhentarim Fighter", which is an evil-aligned fighter variant that also relies on intimidate tactics. Also, because I love elder evils and am using the Kyuss plotline in a campaign I run =)

Interestingly enough, besides Pandorym the gargantuan sphere of annihilation, another elder evil in the same book (Kyuss the vermin lord) has a plot that revolves around his high cultist acquiring a sphere of annihilation from the Tomb of Horrors and using it to destroy the world. Whoever wrote that book apparently loved spheres of annihilation =P

Wings of Peace
2010-03-11, 02:12 AM
There's one point of contention that I'd like to point out that bugs me personally and that's on Daniel Cromwell as a Ghostwalk ghost in that he completely ignores the Calling, which in book states that while a Ghost, you can only take levels in Eidilon and Eidiloncer and if your Eidilon/Eidiloncer levels exceeded your other class levels, you were pulled to the other side of the Veil and into nonplayability.

While there is an option for No Calling, it's a point that should be looked upon carefully and by no means is meant as an offense against the creator, who created an otherwise interesting and refined entry for this contest. The Calling is meant to act as a balance against the template and the features that are opened up by being a Ghostwalk ghost and should be judged on such a basis.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Cie is correct on this point. However, for the sake of accuracy the actual variant used is "Flexible Ghost Advancement" and is located directly next to the "No Calling" variant Cie brought up on page 12 of the "Ghostwalk Campaign Option" book. The build could still exist without variants however it would not allow the character to level in the same manner and it would make it impossible for the character's background to remain the same hence my decision to delve into murkier waters in order to preserve the character's flavor.

BooNL
2010-03-16, 01:49 AM
So, any updates coming?

Optimator
2010-03-16, 04:58 PM
If it were me judging, I would actually award more points for variants out of UA but take away points for flaws and traits.

BooNL
2010-03-22, 03:49 AM
It's too bad interest in this died down. I haven't seen Heliomance post in a while either.

Anyway, if none of the other judges are gonna show, can we at least tally the vote and announce a winner? I'd like to get a new challenge underway!

Heliomance
2010-03-22, 05:45 AM
You rang, sir?

It doesn't look like any of the other judges are gonna show, so I'll tot up the points this evening, and see about starting up another one.

Akal Saris
2010-03-24, 01:44 PM
Sounds good to me.

Soonerdj
2010-03-24, 01:55 PM
and see about starting up another one.

Totally down and ready to flex my freshly exercised optimization muscles.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-03-24, 02:11 PM
see about starting up another one.

Awesome. Maybe I can finish my build for this one.

Tehnar
2010-03-24, 06:17 PM
So can we, the builders, start commentating on other builds?

Heliomance
2010-03-24, 06:30 PM
Right. Sorry this took me so long!
BenTheJester's Fayne Parthinia: 13+13=26
Tehnar's Lothar Shattershield: 13+14=27
Akal Saris's Jorath, Hand of Annihilation: 13+16=29
Hand_of_Vecna's Butters: 7+9.5=16.5
Wings of Peace's Daniel Cromswell: 14+14=28
Vulaas's Logophile: 9+12=21
BooNL's Eruth Taal: 13+15=28

So the overall winner is Jorath, Hand of Annihilation by Akal Saris! Congratulations!

Togo
2010-03-24, 06:33 PM
Can I try submitting a build for the next challenge?

(Yeah, I'm new..)

gallagher
2010-03-24, 08:10 PM
the next one should definitely have different groups that have different archtypes, like a sneeky section and a melee section, where each group has a different secret ingredient. if the actual workload of the judging is too great, it can be reduced to head-to head competition in each category, with two characters per category

the humanity
2010-03-24, 09:31 PM
Can I try submitting a build for the next challenge?

(Yeah, I'm new..)

this to a t.

Akal Saris
2010-03-25, 01:22 AM
Yay, I win! :) BooNL and Wings were both ridiculously close though :P

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME!
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_JEObjcnXxRk/S6ghKtaaV3I/AAAAAAAAADs/bipqE3Of2j0/s800/ORC%20B%20DAY.JPG

Anyhow, looking forward to the next contest. Thanks for putting this together Heliomance!

BooNL
2010-03-25, 01:47 AM
Congrats Akal!

I think I lost some points there as quite a bunch of submissions followed my train of thought (Paladin/Hexblade/Divine Champion/Contemplative/Entropomancer, how do hell do 4 people end up thinking the same thing?!).

Looking forward to the next ingredient. May I suggest something non-spellcastery?

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-03-25, 09:08 AM
I'll be interested only if the judges are different since as I said both judges who posted scores made the mistake of thinking my build had only one level of Entropomancer when it clearly took Entropomancer 4 early then took a fifth and final level at level 20 showing that they didn't read closely enough.

In any event I would be willing to judge the next round since there seems to be a shortage.

Wings of Peace
2010-03-25, 12:09 PM
Belated congrats Akal :smallsmile: