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View Full Version : [3.5]Running Forgotten Realms, Advice?



Ranis
2010-02-18, 02:51 PM
I'll soon be running a 3.5 Forgotten Realms game for a group of 5 players, and I'm mostly familiar with FR from what I've read in Greenwood and Salvatore novels, and from reading just a little bit of my Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book. What are common things to avoid when running a FR campaign, some good Realms to start in? Any other advice to be given would be great.

arguskos
2010-02-18, 03:04 PM
Ok, where to start is really up to what flavor you want the game to have.

Desert: Calimshan or Mulhorand are my preferences (Arabian and Egyptian, respectively)
Arctic: Icewind Dale is my preference here, though some of the other far northern nations work too.
Jungle: Only really have Chult to choose, but it's AWESOME.
Standard High Fantasy: the entire Sword Coast, Cormyr, the Dalelands, the Sea of Falling Stars are all great picks. I like the area around the Sea myself, with Westgate, Darkhold, and all the lovely Zhentarim influences.

My biggest piece of advice to you is this: practice your RP skills. RP every region with yourself a little, so that when time comes to visit Sembia, you sound like a Sembian, and when they go to Rashemen, you have that berserker or Hathran style ready to go, so their immersion is really great.

The Forgotten Realms biggest strength is diversity and the depth of the setting. The players need to FEEL like they're a part of this giant, living world, and you need to make it seem that way. Have peasants in the streets of Waterdeep talk about the Lords and Khelben Blackstaff. When visiting Shadowdale, toss in a reference or two to the Old Mage. Stuff like that. Don't include this big name NPCs, but make reference to them, so the players remember there are other people of note in this world.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:04 PM
Kill off every NPC with an ECL over 15th. That's a decent place to start.

arguskos
2010-02-18, 03:08 PM
Kill off every NPC with an ECL over 15th. That's a decent place to start.
...:smallsigh:

I would not take this advice to heart. While there is a point to not having any NPCs of actual relevance, it's mostly because a great many people hate the Realms for the Mary Sue-ness of the characters (not to say that's Sinfire's purpose, just an observation). However, if you make sure to not include them in the actual game, and leave their adventures as gossip or hearsay, there is MORE than plenty of room in the Realms for an up-and-coming group of adventurers to make their names. Now, at high levels (15+), it makes sense if they are approached by, say, Semmemon or Khelben for an alliance or partnership, since by then, the PCs are people of note, movers and shakers in their own circles.

Morty
2010-02-18, 03:12 PM
I second Arguskos' advice. Both on letting the players feel the world around them and not killing off high-level characters. Not making the adventures center on them, which is what the books actually tell you to do, is quite enough.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:15 PM
(not to say that's Sinfire's purpose, just an observation)

Oh, it is. It very much is.

Morty
2010-02-18, 03:18 PM
Oh, it is. It very much is.

If you hate FR, there's not much point in you offering advice on how to run it, is there?
And to elaborate on my previous point, I'd say that the Heartlands may be the best place to start. They're the most "generic" part of the Realms and a good place for players to travel elsewhere.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 03:21 PM
I always loved the dale lands... lots of fun there...


and Thay.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:24 PM
If you hate FR, there's not much point in you offering advice on how to run it, is there?

My other reasons involve all of the unbalanced content. Seriously, the imbalance between PrCs is staggering. One page you're looking at some of the worst crap since Complete Warrior, the next page you're staring at the Incanatrix. At least Eberron stayed consistent (barring Planar Shepherd).



This much advice I can give: Do not allow Incanatrix or 90% of whatever is printed in Serpent Kingdoms. Or Initiate of Mystara (SIC).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 03:26 PM
My other reasons involve all of the unbalanced content. Seriously, the imbalance between PrCs is staggering. One page you're looking at some of the worst crap since Complete Warrior, the next page you're staring at the Incanatrix. At least Eberron stayed consistent (barring Planar Shepherd).



This much advice I can give: Do not allow Incanatrix or 90% of whatever is printed in Serpent Kingdoms. Or Initiate of Mystara (SIC).

They built them more for fluff then balance. from my understanding

I have to agree though i am a huge FR fan. There stuff is a bit unbalanced and you realy have to keep an eye on you players. When ever i play fr it almost feels like im playign 2nd ed or od&d where gms where a huge part of the character creation proccess.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:29 PM
They built them more for fluff then balance. from my understanding


That's even worse than their [WotC] Errata policy...

hamlet
2010-02-18, 03:30 PM
Advice: Take the 3.5 FR setting materials and just chuck them out the window. Go over to Ebay or NobleKnight.com and pick yourself up a copy of the AD&D 1e Grey Box Campaign Setting for Forgotten Realms, and if you can, a copy of FR1-12(I think) regional books. Ignore any and all references to the Time of Troubles, the Weave, and such Realms Shattering Events. Take all NPC's and slash their levels in half.

Ok, enough snark.

Real Advice: Keep it simple. Don't try to run the Realms like they appear in the novels, or even like it appears in the CS books. That way lay heartbreak. Pick a region, learn the overall flavor of it, and then use your own creativity and mad genius to customize it to your own desire. That's the strength of the Realms. Not the reams of material for sale out there, but the openness and adaptability of it.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 03:31 PM
That's even worse than their [WotC] Errata policy...

even so... most include incatrix's and all the mystra crap are very fluffy... the one thing i think FR has going for it is its depth.

All of the Prc's are very fluffy, they fit there fluff very well.. atleast IMO.


Now before you say it im sure there are a few that don't but i'd say a good majority do.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:37 PM
even so... most include incatrix's and all the mystra crap are very fluffy... the one thing i think FR has going for it is its depth.

All of the Prc's are very fluffy, they fit there fluff very well.. atleast IMO.


Now before you say it im sure there are a few that don't but i'd say a good majority do.

Remember, I'm the kind of person who favors mechanics over fluff. I don't care how fluffy the class is, if you're holding everyone else down then you might as well just build a new character. The fluff means nothing considering anyone can alter it, but only the DM is allowed to alter the mechanics of your character. I'd rather not rely on my DM's hand to make my character useful to the rest of the party.

In other words; A Prestige Class needs to be able to pull it's own weight in a 3-4 person party, not act like eye candy.

DrGonzo
2010-02-18, 03:41 PM
It really depends on what you´re after. I´ve always been a big fan of Sembia, with it´s political intrige, backstabbing and so on. Real fun RPing, if you choose to go there..

chiasaur11
2010-02-18, 03:44 PM
Remember, I'm the kind of person who favors mechanics over fluff. I don't care how fluffy the class is, if you're holding everyone else down then you might as well just build a new character. The fluff means nothing considering anyone can alter it, but only the DM is allowed to alter the mechanics of your character. I'd rather not rely on my DM's hand to make my character useful to the rest of the party.

In other words; A Prestige Class needs to be able to pull it's own weight in a 3-4 person party, not act like eye candy.

Sounds about right.

And really, I'd want the best class ever if'n I had my character tied into FR fluff. Really, only stuff that seems tolerable is "non-canon."

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-18, 03:50 PM
Sounds about right.

And really, I'd want the best class ever if'n I had my character tied into FR fluff. Really, only stuff that seems tolerable is "non-canon."

Considering the fluff of the setting, nothing less than Level 2 Optimization should be allowed to form an adventuring party. Because that's the level you need to play at just to take over a freaking village.

GreyMantle
2010-02-18, 03:53 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with Sinfire here. I mean, the Incantrix is quite possibly the most powerful wizzrd PrC ever released by WotC, but FR also gets stuff like Master of the Yuirwood, which won't even be that useful or powerful or interesting or fun in a campaign that never, ever leaves Aglarond. I'd require everything from a FR splatbook to be approved by you before it's officially used.

As for NPC's, only two them (hint: their names start with "D" and "E") need to be erased from every D&D game, 4EVAR!!11! The others just need to be reduced to maybe 10th or 12th level for the vast majority, and maybe the upper teens for Chosen and such.

FR is massive, and so it can be really easy for parties just to float through medieval European analogue after medieval European and never really have the opportunity to let each region acquire its own character. I'd recommend starting somewhere that you know the PC's will be willing to stay at for a while (i'm personally fond of the Unapproachable East), so that you can make it as flavorful and detailed as possible.

And FR has huuuuuge amounts of setting/rules disconnect, mostly from its freaky high-leveled NPC's and very interfering deities. If FR actually followed the 3.x rules, it would have been destroyed by someone like seventeen billion years ago. Just keep that in mind.

(One more thing: it's pretty much common sense, but don't be afraid to ignore things in the sourcebooks and the novels. A lot of FR suffers from crazy overwriting, so you'll probably need to do some hacking if you want to tell your own stories.)

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-18, 03:58 PM
Considering the fluff of the setting, nothing less than Level 2 Optimization should be allowed to form an adventuring party. Because that's the level you need to play at just to take over a freaking village.


See thats the other problem is if you start at level 1 in realms every thing works out fine cuz you actualy have to work to get into the prestige classes...


As in the most PRCs represent and organisation(especialy in FR)..



Sounds like a contrast of flavor.

I've never had a balance issue running or playing in FR. Once we had a fire mage who was a little out of wack but that was put back in his place pritty quick.


Fr is more of a fluff then mechanical type setting if you want mechanics go play eberron.

arguskos
2010-02-18, 04:09 PM
Fr is more of a fluff then mechanical type setting if you want mechanics go play eberron.
Amen. Yes, the Realms is source to a great deal of broken stuff. You know what else is? Complete Divine. Your point?

The Realms, like anything else, needs a watchful eye from the DM to prevent total imbalance.

Ranis, ignore this mechanics debate, and just delve really deeply into the Realms. It's worth it, for the flavor and the depth alone. The mechanics can come second, the setting and its character is what's key here.

Morty
2010-02-18, 04:13 PM
Ranis, ignore this mechanics debate, and just delve really deeply into the Realms. It's worth it, for the flavor and the depth alone. The mechanics can come second, the setting and its character is what's key here.

This, pretty much.
For example my long-running FR campaign - it lasted for very long technically, but didn't go far because we couldn't get together to play very often - started in Saradush in Tethyr, and then we travelled through Calimshan, Amn, Western Heartlands and ended the campaign on oue way to Sembia. The party was also a rather colorful bunch - a TN half-elf wizard from Waterdeep, a TN human ranger from Luskan, a NE elf rogue from Chult and a TN elven cleric of Kossuth from Evereska.

deuxhero
2010-02-18, 04:13 PM
What to avoid?

The Sword Coast.

hamlet
2010-02-18, 04:45 PM
What to avoid?

The Sword Coast.

Why?

I rather liked the Sword Coast . . . and the Savage Frontier.

Ranis
2010-02-18, 04:48 PM
I was planning on keeping things very simple, because most of my players will have had very limited access to D&D in the past and they will moreso be focused on the overall experience than whether or not their characters are awesome, or even close to optimized. I plan on doing something fairly straightforward, having a plot arc cover 5 levels of play going from one realm to another while they follow a major questline, then going to the first for the big climax.

So nothing overly complex, but there are just SO MANY realms to choose from, I'm afraid that by the time I start writing material and familiarizing myself with one realm, I'll find one that I like better and wish I had chosen it instead.

Also, I can't seem to find in the Campaign Setting book what exactly the Zhentarim is. From what I can gather, they are a society of power-mongers that will do anything to gain ground over everyone else in Toril; in reading many of the Realms blurbs they seem to have a sour history with a lot of nations. Where in the book can I find them?

herrhauptmann
2010-02-18, 04:49 PM
At low levels, the best advice is to just ignore the existence of high level NPCs.
Because
A) FRCS was created before Epic Handbook, so the epic characters don't even work properly. Elminster has 3 levels in "epic" what class is that???
b)If you include the creations of Greenwood and Salvatore (I say don't. Especially for Salvatore), they will by rights steal the spotlight from the low level PCs. Even wulfgar, as poorly built as he is (average stats, 9th level barbarian), will overshadow a low level party. And that's just using his stats. Now try using Drizzt as he's portrayed in the books, and he'll quickly overshadow even an optimized level 15 party (see thread: Statting Drizzt Do'urden numbers 1-4).
C)Remember that the faith of Eilistraee was created by horny male nerds.
D)According to some authors, there are members of the Harpers lurking behind every corner, just waiting to jump out and shout "For those who harp!" so they can create a quick Deus ex Machina and die happy. Even among red wizards of thay. DON'T DO THIS. (Read the Shandril Shessair trilogy for an example) It will be even more annoying than getting overshadowed by Elminster and the 7 sisters.
E)Making your party members of an adventuring guild who get sent on missions, waterdeep and silverymoon are great locations for that. SOmething more militaristic, say stopping an invading army: the borders of any country that is neighbors to Thay or Zhentil Keep, or is in the Untamed North, is a good choice.
F) Political intrigue: Sembia, Thay, Cormyr are good choices. Thay would require a higher level party just cuz of all the Red Wizards.
G) Know how the different Gods and their followers interact. I have seen a player who worshiped Cyric try to gain access to a Zhent outpost, claiming "We're all on the side of Evil, let me in bro." Meanwhile he was told (By the DM) that the Zhents had in the last year, been rededicated to Bane after a period of Cyric worship. So Cyric was hated and his followers persecuted by any Zhent who didn't want to end up in front of an inquisition.

Morty
2010-02-18, 04:49 PM
Also, I can't seem to find in the Campaign Setting book what exactly the Zhentarim is. From what I can gather, they are a society of power-mongers that will do anything to gain ground over everyone else in Toril; in reading many of the Realms blurbs they seem to have a sour history with a lot of nations. Where in the book can I find them?

I'm away from the books right now, but I think that organizations such as Harpers and Zhentarim are described in the back of the book.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-18, 04:56 PM
Also, I can't seem to find in the Campaign Setting book what exactly the Zhentarim is. From what I can gather, they are a society of power-mongers that will do anything to gain ground over everyone else in Toril; in reading many of the Realms blurbs they seem to have a sour history with a lot of nations. Where in the book can I find them?

I don't think there's any one book dedicated to the Zhents.
But for other entries, look at Zhentil Keep, Zhentilar, Black Network, Manshoon, Semmemon, Fzoul Chembryl (sp?), and the Gods Bane and Cyric.

The Zhents have several factions. They are based out of Zhentil Keep, and depending on time period, are headed by Manshoon and/or Fzoul Chembryl. There is a spy agency which they use to observe their neighbors.
There is a military wing, which is used in direct conquests. Also the guards for regular Zhent caravans.
There is an offshoot of the spy agency, generally forms 'resistance' or 'terrorist' cells in other cities. Modus Operandi include assasination, theft, arson, blackmail, crime, etc.
There is also a strong religious element. Fzoul is the high priest of either Bane or Cyric depending on time period. And that part, almost sounds like a soap opera. :smallamused:

LibraryOgre
2010-02-18, 05:02 PM
Also, I can't seem to find in the Campaign Setting book what exactly the Zhentarim is. From what I can gather, they are a society of power-mongers that will do anything to gain ground over everyone else in Toril; in reading many of the Realms blurbs they seem to have a sour history with a lot of nations. Where in the book can I find them?

The Zhentarim are, IIRC, described in the back of the book with the other organizations. In brief, however, they're a group who tries to gain control of the Realms, working mostly through economic means. A lot of Zhentarim are traders who also serve as intelligence gatherers... they may not be actual SPIES, but they note trends and information and pass it along. The Zhents also have thieves and adventurers who serve to dig up ruins for artifacts, wizards who develop spells to help them, and priests (usually of Bane) who oversee the whole thing.

And, they also have an army of beholders.

Ranis
2010-02-18, 05:15 PM
And, they also have an army of beholders.

*double take*

They do what with the who now?! Where does it say that?

How?!

arguskos
2010-02-18, 05:16 PM
*double take*

They do what with the who now?! Where does it say that?

How?!
To be technical, I believe they have an army of Death Tyrants (undead beholders that Bane granted knowledge of to Fzoul Chembryl, his Chosen and the leader of the Black Network).

AslanCross
2010-02-18, 05:56 PM
The Zhentarim are described in brief in the FRCS book. There is a lot more information in detail in Lords of Darkness. It even has Scyllua Darkhope as the cover girl. Pretty awesome.

Lords of Darkness has the updated Zhentarim symbol (black dragon with the gold coin and the Scepter of the Tyrant's Eye motif), along with a sample Zhentarim base, etc.

I believe the most recent 3.x source has Fzoul as the high priest of Bane. In 4E he ascends to becoming the God of Being An Evil Minion as an exarch of Bane.

chiasaur11
2010-02-18, 06:06 PM
The Zhentarim are described in brief in the FRCS book. There is a lot more information in detail in Lords of Darkness. It even has Scyllua Darkhope as the cover girl. Pretty awesome.

Lords of Darkness has the updated Zhentarim symbol (black dragon with the gold coin and the Scepter of the Tyrant's Eye motif), along with a sample Zhentarim base, etc.

I believe the most recent 3.x source has Fzoul as the high priest of Bane. In 4E he ascends to becoming the God of Being An Evil Minion as an exarch of Bane.

A god of minions with one hit point would be a hoot and a half, thinking about it. I'm guessing that ain't the case, though.

deuxhero
2010-02-18, 06:24 PM
Why?

I rather liked the Sword Coast . . . and the Savage Frontier.

Hopelessly generic. I have no idea why you make a world of interesting locations and put medieval Europe in there. Campaign settings exist to AVOID having to do that.

arguskos
2010-02-18, 10:42 PM
Hopelessly generic. I have no idea why you make a world of interesting locations and put medieval Europe in there. Campaign settings exist to AVOID having to do that.
Eh, it's a decent default to use as a jumping off locale for expeditions to Chult, Icewind Dale, Calimshan, Maztica, Thay, Mulhorand, Anauroch, or any of the dozens of other great nations in the Realms. Basically, it's a baseline, someplace that's always easy to adventure in and is always gonna be friendly to up-and-coming adventurers, unlike the above realms, which are by and large highly hostile places.