Arcane Gestalt [3.5]

[Tao the Ninja]

What's a really powerful gestalt build for an arcane caster? No two-PrCs-at-once, but yes to dual advancing PrCs and doubling up on casting. I have most books other than Heroes of Horror and Player's Guide to Faerun. My current build is a fire elf Elf Paragon-Generalist (the elf racial substitution level)Domain Wizard[transmutation] 3, planning on eventually doing WizElfparagon3/WizRuathar 2/WizUltimatemagus 10/WizArchmage5. Is there a better build?

[Glimbur]

Wizard//Wu Jen? You're SAD on Int, and the spell lists aren't exactly the same. You're probably better off with Wizard//Warblade or Wizard//Factotum though, because you only have so many actions per combat so passive boosts are nicer than usual. Possibly splash Monk and take Kung-Fu Genius to get Int to AC.

[Salt_Crow]

If your DM allows you to have both sides of gestalt to stack for the same base class, then by all means do so. My DM's interpretation (and my interpretation too) is that the two sides of gestalt should be built as if it were two separate characters (save feats and skills) then combine them together.

[JoshuaZ]

Your best bet may be to do a specialist wizard on one side who goes for Rainbow Servant and Archmage. The other side should be warmage 20. The reason this works nicely is that the capstone of Rainbow Servant is that cleric spells enter your arcane class lists. The warmage knows all spells on its class list and casts them spontaneously. So this build gives you the ability to cast any cleric spell spontaneously. There are probably cheesier things to do but this is a fairly simple build with some very interesting abilities. Depending on the sort of character you want, you could also substitute dread necromancer for warmage. This actually works thematically very well since you then get a lot of nice necromancy spells off the cleric list.

[Tao the Ninja]

Your best bet may be to do a specialist wizard on one side who goes for Rainbow Servant and Archmage. The other side should be warmage 20. The reason this works nicely is that the capstone of Rainbow Servant is that cleric spells enter your arcane class lists. The warmage knows all spells on its class list and casts them spontaneously. So this build gives you the ability to cast any cleric spell spontaneously. There are probably cheesier things to do but this is a fairly simple build with some very interesting abilities. Depending on the sort of character you want, you could also substitute dread necromancer for warmage. This actually works thematically very well since you then get a lot of nice necromancy spells off the cleric list.

Rainbow Savant is CD, right? I'm looking for more of a generalist build, so do you need specialization for RS/AM? I like Domain Wizard, does that work?

[Wings of Peace]

Side 1: Beguiler 10/X

Side 2: Ardent 4/Subverted Psion 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Ur-Priest 2/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 4/Incantatrix 8 (For bonus meta magics mostly)/

Deity: Mystra (Ur-Priest does not actually ban worship)

Feats Worth Noting:

-Initiate of Mystra (Unless it has an alignment restriction and I've forgotten)

-Sword of the Arcane Order (Gives you access to wizard spells)

[JoshuaZ]

Rainbow Savant is CD, right? I'm looking for more of a generalist build, so do you need specialization for RS/AM? I like Domain Wizard, does that work?

Specialization is not necessary. It simply gives you more spells per a day and since you have so many evocation spells on the warmage side you don't lose anything by banning evocation and potentially one other school as a wizard. But nothing in the build requires it. I don't know enough about how Domain Wizard's work so I can't comment on how it would alter things. I suspect it would not substantially impact it.

[Tao the Ninja]

Okay, how about a 20-level build with Wiz, Wmg, UM, and RS?

[Greymane]

Side 1: Beguiler 10/X

Side 2: Ardent 4/Subverted Psion 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Ur-Priest 2/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 4/Incantatrix 8 (For bonus meta magics mostly)/

Deity: Mystra (Ur-Priest does not actually ban worship)

Feats Worth Noting:

-Initiate of Mystra (Unless it has an alignment restriction and I've forgotten)

-Sword of the Arcane Order (Gives you access to wizard spells)

Would you like some Gouda with your Limburger?:smalleek:

[nolispe]

I vote Wizard 20//Factotum 10/X, with FOI taken as many times as possible. Yay for 15+ actions in the suprise round!

[Draz74]

Gestalt with dual-progression PrCs allowed?!? Oooooh.


Okay, how about a 20-level build with Wiz, Wmg, UM, and RS?

Beguiler is a better spontaneous class for this than Warmage. Among other advantages, it's INT-based.

And yes, I was going to suggest a Wizard/Beguiler/Rainbow Servant/Ultimate Magus combo ... hopefully with at least 8 levels of Factotum wedged in there somewhere.

However, I can't figure out a way to fit in 20 levels of Wizard casting, 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, and 8 levels of Factotum without using further cheese (like early-entry tricks).

EDIT: I guess it's not all that hard if you don't rush to get the Factotum levels early on, and if you don't try to keep Beguiler at full caster level.
1) Wizard//Beguiler
2) Wizard//Factotum
3) Wizard//Factotum
4) Wizard//UMagus
5) Factotum//UMagus
6) Beguiler//Rainbow Servant (W)
7) Beguiler//Rainbow Servant (W)
8) Beguiler//Rainbow Servant (W)
9) Factotum//Rainbow Servant (B)
10) Factotum//Rainbow Servant (B)
11) Wizard//Rainbow Servant (B)
12) Wizard//Rainbow Servant (B)
13) Wizard//Rainbow Servant (B)
14) Wizard//Rainbow Servant (B)
15) Wizard//Rainbow Servant (B)
16) Factotum // UMagus
17) Wizard // UMagus
18) Factotum // UMagus
19) Factotum // UMagus
20) Wizard // Mindbender

Ends up as Wizard 18, Beguiler (with Cleric spells) 18, with Cunning Surge and Telepathy thrown in. I could have kept Wizard casting at full, but I really wanted to end up with enough Beguiler levels to access Miracle.

[Godskook]

I'd go some combination of Druid/Wizard that got early entry into Arcane Hierophant due to Gestalt's inherent ease of access to dual-progression classes.

Something like:
Druid 1//Wizard 1
Druid 2//Wizard 2
Druid 3//Wizard 3
Druid 4//Master Specialist 1
Druid 5//Master Specialist 2
Arcane Hierophant 1//Swordsage 1
Druid 6//Master Specialist 3
Druid 7//Master Specialist 4
Druid 8//Master Specialist 5
Druid 9//Master Specialist 6
Druid 10//Master Specialist 7
Arcane Hierophant 2//Swordsage 2
Arcane Hierophant 3//Swordsage 3
Arcane Hierophant 4//Swordsage 4
Arcane Hierophant 5//Swordsage 5
Arcane Hierophant 6//Swordsage 6
Arcane Hierophant 7//Swordsage 7
Arcane Hierophant 8//Swordsage 8
Arcane Hierophant 9//Swordsage 9
Arcane Hierophant 10//Swordsage 10

1.Make sure you dump your familiar to an ACF and get a new one by way of Obtain familiar. Otherwise, your familiar will lag a little.
2.You can probably afford a few less levels of Druid and PrC X in the later parts of the build, front load the AH levels and pick up something nice for the last 5 levels.

[absolmorph]

Wizard 10/Loremaster 3/Archmage 5/ X 2//Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Thaumaturgist 5/ X 2
Feats of note:
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spell Focus (Other)
Scribe Scroll
2 Metamagic or item creation feats; Heighten Spell and Quicken Spell would be nice. Get 'em as Wizard bonus feats.
Skill Focus (Knowledge (X))
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)

End result:
Wizard casting as a level 28 (at least) wizard. I'm not certain that this works, but it seems like it would.
Archivist casting as a level 18 (at least) archivist
SAD; Spell/day and spell DCs are determined off Int.

[Brendan]

This may be a bit weaker than the average cheese output, but it might be nice:
wizard/cleric 1-3 or so
mystic thruge/druid 4-14 or so
wizard/cleric 14-20

all core and fairly simple.

[absolmorph]

This may be a bit weaker than the average cheese output, but it might be nice:
wizard/cleric 1-3 or so
mystic thruge/druid 4-14 or so
wizard/cleric 14-20

all core and fairly simple.
Or, switch the side Mystic Theurge is on and don't stop taking wizard levels.
Simple, legal and gives you level CL 30//20. I'd call that a win//win build.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wizard 10/Loremaster 3/Archmage 5/ X 2//Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Thaumaturgist 5/ X 2
Feats of note:
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spell Focus (Other)
Scribe Scroll
2 Metamagic or item creation feats; Heighten Spell and Quicken Spell would be nice. Get 'em as Wizard bonus feats.
Skill Focus (Knowledge (X))
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)

End result:
Wizard casting as a level 28 (at least) wizard. I'm not certain that this works, but it seems like it would.
Archivist casting as a level 18 (at least) archivist
SAD; Spell/day and spell DCs are determined off Int.
I am pretty sure you would't stack CL gain for Theurge levels and spellcasting level, besides MT is a trap, I suggest you keep Archivist since the Dark Knowledge class feature is quite worthwhile. Also much more easier to have a DM to aprove

[sofawall]

Just a note about gestalt. Wizard gives you all the power you need. Psionics is nice to gestalt, because you can get a hilarious amount of action economy abuse with it. Same for Factotum.

Basically, Wizard/Wizard isn't massively more powerful than Wizard. Basically all you get is more spell slots. No expanded list, no metamagic tricks, none of that. All it really does is let you Incantatrix, Halruuan and Tainted Scholar all at once.

[absolmorph]

I am pretty sure you would't stack CL gain for Theurge levels and spellcasting level, besides MT is a trap, I suggest you keep Archivist since the Dark Knowledge class feature is quite worthwhile. Also much more easier to have a DM to aprove
Eh, you still get level 20 Wizard casting really early.
Of course, Wizard//Archivist 20 is pretty powerful, too, and entirely based on Int.

[JaronK]

You really want Factotum in there. You've already got plenty of spells as a Wizard or Archivist, so that's not the issue... you need actions. Factotum gives you exactly that, plus a host of other benefits. I'd probably do Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1//Archivist 1/Factotum 19 if I wanted serious power. Technically not arcane, but it does the same job, and you've got 20th level Archivist casting with 16th level Binding (and max level vestiges) combined with extra actions, any skill you need, Int to all sorts of fun stuff (including saves and AC when you need it), and tons of other tricks.

JaronK

[Draz74]

Wizard 3/Cerebremancer 10/IotSfV 7//Psion 3/Factotum 11/Psion +6?

[Philistine]

Eh, you still get level 20 Wizard casting really early.


No, Dusk Eclipse is correct. If you get the same class feature from both sides of the gestalt (in this case, Wizard CL advancement) it accrues at the rate of whichever side is faster. You don't advance CL at double rate.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wasn't there a build floating around with Wiz/Beholder Mage/UrPriest/MT/Dewomerkeeper somewhere? Throw Factorum onto the other side for more actions.

Have a nice day.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't there a build floating around with Wiz/Beholder Mage/UrPriest/MT/Dewomerkeeper somewhere? Throw Factorum onto the other side for more actions.

Have a nice day.

Maybe magic9mushroom build?... I'll look for a link

Edit: Found the build



Disclaimer: The only tricks in here I came up with myself were using Clarity of True Madness to get out of Tainted Scholar and using Contemplative to qualify for Dweomerkeeper, and I don't assert being first on those, just that I came up with them independently. However, I didn't see the tricks thrown together into a full build anywhere, so decided to make one.

1: Monk
2: Human Paragon
3: Beholder Mage
4: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
5: Human Paragon (Beholder Mage)
6: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
7: Tainted Scholar (Beholder Mage)
8: Ur-Priest
9: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
10: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
11: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
12: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
13: Ur-Priest
14: Mystic Theurge (Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage)
15: Contemplative (Ur-Priest)
16: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
17: Dweomerkeeper (Ur-Priest)
18: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
19: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)
20: Dweomerkeeper (Beholder Mage)

Feats of note: Assume Supernatural Ability x2 obtained through taint at level 2 (if ruled to be required to take Beholder Mage levels), Iron Will and Spell Focus obtained before level 8, Alternative Source Spell obtained through taint at level 8, one metamagic feat and one item creation feat obtained before level 15, Martial Study x2 as soon as possible to get Iron Heart Surge.

Abilities of note: 17 Int, then Wis, then Cha in pointbuy. Human Paragon 3rd and all level-based ability score increases add to Con or Wis.

Original race: Human.
Alignment: Lawful Evil.

Events of note: During 2nd level, she'll amass enough wealth for a Polymorph Any Object into a Beholder, and due to her 17+ Int it will be permanent (getting an Enlarge Person from a random apprentice wizard first). She takes Clarity of True Madness as her 2nd level Tainted Scholar secret, and uses it every time she subsequently gains a level on the Will save for the Tainted Scholar's Level Advancement feature. At some time prior to attaining 15th level, she Greater Planar Binds or Gates in a Pit Fiend and has a chat. She takes Magic as the bonus domain from Contemplative.

Capabilities of note: 9th level arcane spellcasting from 12th level onward, 9th level divine spellcasting from 16th level onward, tainted spellcasting applying to both from 6th level giving large amounts of spells per day and save DCs (not quantified because taint symptoms can affect ability scores), Beholder Mage's casting mechanic of one spell of each spell level as a free action each round, rebuke undead, supernatural spell 1/day from 19th level (once she gets this, she can dispel the PaO and recast it as a supernatural ability, preventing it from ever being dispelled), Iron Heart Surge (to smash Antimagic Fields unBeholderifying her).

Sources required:

Core (Monk, Mystic Theurge, Polymorph Any Object, Beholder)
Unearthed Arcana (Human Paragon)
Lords of Madness (Beholder Mage)
Heroes of Horror (Tainted Scholar)
Complete Divine (Ur-Priest, Contemplative, Dweomerkeeper)
Savage Species (Assume Supernatural Ability)
Dragon #325 (Alternative Source Spell)
Tome of Battle (Martial Study, Iron Heart Surge)



Anticipated Questions and Comments:

Q) Monk???

A) Firstly, it has a good Fort save, which is essential to getting into Ur-Priest. Secondly, it gives Wis to AC, which is nice given Beholder-shaped armour is rare and expensive. Thirdly, it's lulzy to have a supremely overpowered character like this start as a Monk.

Q) Human Paragon shouldn't work as a Beholder.

A) In Unearthed Arcana it states that paragon classes don't go away if you change race (you just can't become a paragon of your new race, and we're not trying to), and it doesn't say you can't gain more levels in them afterward. The first level of Human Paragon is gotten prior to becoming a Beholder. That said, you can substitute the first level of Human Paragon with any other class with Bluff as a class skill and the other two with straight Beholder Mage and it'll still work, just with smaller Hit Dice, one less feat, less skills and no +2 to an attribute.

Q) Why take Tainted Scholar before Ur-Priest rather than later?

A) Tainted Spellcasting is obscenely powerful, hence it makes the character more powerful through the midlevels. There's also MAD going on if you don't pick up Tainted Scholar before starting on Ur-Priest.

Q) Why not use Favored/Primary Contact to enter Tainted Scholar early?

A) Two reasons. First, that would make entry to Ur-Priest conditional on the use of fractional base save bonuses. Secondly, it's kinda preposterous for a frickin' BEHOLDER to remain part of a mages' guild, and I wanted the build to be reasonable.

Q) Why 2 levels of Tainted Scholar? You only need one.

A) Technically true, but Clarity of True Madness means you don't need a natural 20 on each of your Will saves to avoid taking another level in Tainted Scholar, and like I said above, I didn't want something that unlikely.

Q) You can't qualify for Mystic Theurge with 1 level of Ur-Priest.

A) Alternative Source Spell lets her cast any arcane spell as a divine spell and vice versa. She can cast up to 5th level arcane spells at this point.

Q) Contemplative as an Ur-Priest? WTF?

A) Nothing in there says you have to worship a god or be a cleric, and a Pit Fiend should certainly count as an "enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment". It's fair game.

Q) Ur-Priests don't have domains, so you can't get into Dweomerkeeper.

A) Contemplative gives you an extra domain, and Complete Divine spells out that nonclerics still get them.

Q) My DM won't let me play this! Help!

A) Sorry, no help there :smallbiggrin:.

[Tao the Ninja]

Actually, I'm going to keep it simple.

Wizard 15/Warmage 5//Warmage 5/Rainbow Servant 10/Ultimate Magus 5

Wizard casting 20, Warmage casting 19 w/ spontaneous cleric. Thanks for all of your advice.

[Tyndmyr]

I suggest Lil' Timmy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132452&page=2). Is legal by the critera you specify, I believe.

I do need to tweak him some, though. I've unaccountably left out loredrake AND the draconic rituals. And I believe I forgot about the monk/other class with good saves to qualify for ur-priest at 6. Fortunately, the one should more than balance out the other.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

OMNICASTER! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)

EDIT: As for use of UM in gestalt, I'd do something like Wizard 3//Beguiler 3 (with Practiced Spellcaster on Beguiler)) going into UM10//Factotum 9/Monk 1 with Kung-Fu Genius or its FR-specific version, leaving the remaining 7 levels for moar Beguiler and Wizard, either straight or PrCs.

If you stack the levels right, you could probably get away with double 9s, both based on Int. Use Factotum to surge spells, along with Rods of Quicken. You could also try to fit in a level of Spellthief for the joy that is Master Spellthief and giggle. As for what do on the wizard side? I'd specialize in something not evocation, go Focused Specialist, banning Illusion, Enchantment, and Evocation, letting Beguiler pick up the slack.

tl;dr: Warmage is what Ackbar is talking about.

[Tyndmyr]

Omnicaster fails his criteria of PrCs on both sides(it's also a standard gestalt rule, so this isn't uncommon). Hence lil' Timmy, for a similar effect at the price of a rather complicated build.

[Goonthegoof]

Best way to do things is get one of those prestige classes that look good, but only give you an advance in a spellcasting class every two levels. Take that, and take levels in wizard every level that your prestige class doesn't give you spellcasting. A great way to supplement that is to spend your first 5 levels on a caster and the other half of those 5 levels on some kind of intelligent undead template and then take evolved undead on every level that your prestige class gives you a spellcasting increase.

[deuxhero]

Wizard/wizard prcs 20//Factotum 8/warblade 12

Win D&D.

[Goonthegoof]

Screw warblade, take duelist for 10 free AC :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Screw warblade, take duelist for 10 free AC :smallbiggrin:

If you are relying on AC to defend you, then you have already screwed up somewhere. Warblade >>> Duelist.

[Goonthegoof]

All warblade gets you is int to various close quarters crap, same reasoning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

All warblade gets you is int to various close quarters crap, same reasoning.

Three words: Iron Heart Surge. Also, making a Concentration Check instead of a weak save, and avoiding death by SoL. Now, granted, it'd be better to go Swordsage, get stances to give you concealment (thus immune to sneak attack) and fun stuff, but Warblade is still solid.

[Tao the Ninja]

Wizard/wizard prcs 20//Factotum 8/warblade 12

Win D&D.

Oh, wait, this rocks. I'm going to go

Wiz5/Jpm10/Ajc5//Wbl10/Wiz2/Factotum8.

I figured out an order to put them in to get IL 20, BAB 20, CL 20, and Cunning Surge. My DM got pissed at me for casting Time Stop, Shapechange, and Chain Disintegrate at 8th level.

[Endarire]

WarbladeX for save swap maneuvers. Whee!

[PhoenixRivers]

Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / IotSV 7
Druid 3 / Arcane Hierophant 8 / Druid +2 / MoMF 7

There, By level 13, you'll be CL 21 in druid and Wizard, you'll get to CL 23 Druid, CL 28 Wizard, keep any extraordinary abilities of the forms you wildshape into, and you have IotSV abilities.

If you allow dual progression PrC's, and dual PRC advancement.

[Tao the Ninja]

Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / IotSV 7
Druid 3 / Arcane Hierophant 8 / Druid +2 / MoMF 7

There, By level 13, you'll be CL 21 in druid and Wizard, you'll get to CL 23 Druid, CL 28 Wizard, keep any extraordinary abilities of the forms you wildshape into, and you have IotSV abilities.

If you allow dual progression PrC's, and dual PRC advancement.

I can't take 2 PrC's at once, sorry.