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Shadowbane
2010-02-18, 08:17 PM
Are the Half-dragon, Half-celestial or Half-fiend templates worth the level adjustment? If not, what level adjustment are they actually worth? Working this out so I can give my players more options, thanks in advance!

mostlyharmful
2010-02-18, 08:31 PM
It depends what you're building and how fixed you are on a particular flavour, generally they suck for casters and the outsiders are terrible for most anything, dragon CAN be useful for high str builds but it all changes if you've got a burning backstory in your pocket.

Soranar
2010-02-18, 09:59 PM
Alright let's see

Half-dragon, LA+3

Screams melee (every bonus is melee oriented). So I'll compare it to a normal melee character (human fighter 20) vs the half-dragon type (fighter 17)

The Con bonus gives you +1 hitpoints per level so at level 20 (17)
you get 17 more hitpoints to compensate.

You also gain a die increase so add another hitpoint (on average) per level

so around 34 bonus hitpoints overall

EDIT: (just realized I made a mistake)

If you played a normal warrior (d10 hitpoints) with an average bonus (+2) you'd get 24 hitpoints overall (on average) so 10 less at least (most warriors would get more than that with better Con and hit dice).

Hitpoints, you gain a little over time and you start behind

BAB

+4 to hit overall (instead of +3 from class level) and you don't lose an iterative attack

BAB, you gain a little at first, but you lose feat access early on, even

skillpoints

you get way more skillpoints, normal fighter gets 2x+Int (say +2) x 20=80 instead you'd get 6x+Int (say +3) x17=153, nearly twice as much


skillpoints, you gain a lot over time and you start ahead but your maximum is lessened

Saves : you lose, that is normally inevitable

AC +4, Cha +2, Immunity to 1 element,sleep and paralysis, breath weapon and natural weapon, flight, all are full gains over normal class

Damage output, marginal gain (feats can compensate normally)

Conclusion: worth it for the right build. Anything other than a straight fighter type would gain less though (d12 hitpoint classes, classes with lots of skillpoints)

Worst picks : Probably barbarian despite the perceived synergy, any arcane casting class, Druid (wildshape gives you all the physical bonuses), ranger comes out about the same but is much simpler to play early on so I don't recommend it either.

Strong picks: Cleric (you still get level 9 spells, way more skills, and Cha helps your turn undead count), Paladin (every stat increased is used, bonus to Cha compensates the saves hit a little, not having access to great damage increase feats/class abilities also helps)

Melee oriented builds without the proper stats gain the most. Medium BAB classes with d10 or less hitpoints and x4 or less skillpoints. If that class can use Cha then all the better.

Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend LA +4

Both are inferior to half-dragon. Half-Dragon gives you better stat increases (+8 to a single stat is worth a lot more than +2 to 4 stats), the damage reduction will be bypassed by everything you face at that level, smites are more or less useless when you only get 1 per day (and even when you have more...) and the spellcasting is easily covered by a friend or an item.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-02-18, 10:43 PM
The short answer is no, LA is almost never worth it, even +1. Now, considering LA buy-off, things like Tiefling Gravetouched Ghoul, and half-fey become more manageable, but they still hurt.

For the most part, the Half-X in the MM just don't provide enough "umph" for the lose of three character levels: they simply don't provide for everything that you lose out on.

On the flip side, you have things like Lolth-touched and Feral, which more than make-up for the single level you lose, but these bad boys are almost strictly melee toys, so, generally, you should let them have nice things.

Shadowbane
2010-02-18, 11:18 PM
Awesome, thanks for the answers! Particularly the really detailed one!

Nate the Snake
2010-02-18, 11:21 PM
You also gain a die increase so add another hitpoint (on average) per level

The hit die increase only applies to racial hit dice, not to class levels.


you get way more skillpoints, normal fighter gets 2x+Int (say +2) x 20=80 instead you'd get 6x+Int (say +3) x17=153, nearly twice as much


Again, this only applies to racial hit dice. The fighter levels still only give 2+Int, not 6+Int.

I don't know how that would affect your assessment.

Shadowbane
2010-02-18, 11:34 PM
With the homebrewed rules for skills we use, it didn't even factor into mine.

Soranar
2010-02-18, 11:40 PM
The hit die increase only applies to racial hit dice, not to class levels.



Again, this only applies to racial hit dice. The fighter levels still only give 2+Int, not 6+Int.

I don't know how that would affect your assessment.

Nope. Half-Dragon has no Racial Hit Dice, the change applies directly to whatever you're playing (otherwise the up to d12 comment would make no sense).

Same case as Necropolitan which turns all your hit Dice into d12s.

Same goes for the skillpoints.

Salt_Crow
2010-02-19, 12:42 AM
Nope. Half-Dragon has no Racial Hit Dice, the change applies directly to whatever you're playing (otherwise the up to d12 comment would make no sense).

Same case as Necropolitan which turns all your hit Dice into d12s.

Same goes for the skillpoints.

From SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm):

HD

Hit Dice

Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD.

Skills

Skills

A half-dragon gains skill points as a dragon and has skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier) × (HD + 3). Do not include Hit Dice from class levels in this calculation—the half-dragon gains dragon skill points only for its racial Hit Dice, and gains the normal amount of skill points for its class levels. Treat skills from the base creature’s list as class skills, and other skills as cross-class.
Emphases mine.

Undead templates are probably the only exception that do change the class HD (still doesn't affect the skill points per level).

The_Snark
2010-02-19, 12:59 AM
Undead templates are probably the only exception that do change the class HD (still doesn't affect the skill points per level).

Even then, it's not a special exception for the whole type—just that undead templates usually (always?) use the following wording:


Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

... rather than singling out racial HD.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-19, 07:52 AM
I think Mineral Warrior is worth the LA.
If you are a melee dude, DR 8/Adamantine means even though you lost as levels worth of hps, you gain DR that lowers the damage by same amount or more (since every attack).

1/2 Dragon would be more worth it: were it +3 instead of +4.

vegetalss4
2010-02-19, 07:54 AM
Nope. Half-Dragon has no Racial Hit Dice, the change applies directly to whatever you're playing (otherwise the up to d12 comment would make no sense).


the up to d12 comment is in case you add the template to someting with racial hit dice.

Sahaar
2010-02-19, 07:55 AM
For a staight-up fighter, I'd say H-Dragon is worth it. STR 16? Awesome for melee! The extra HPs aren't bad, either. As I once told my friend, 'the only bad part is the LA.'

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-19, 12:23 PM
I happen to agree, though in a Monsterous PC campaign, its FAR more useful. I was in one wheren the DM said we must play a monsterous race with a template. I was a Rakshasa Vampire Sorcerer. But my buddy was Mr. Melee to say the least: a Half-Red Dragon Troll Lion Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker. Base Strength was somewhere near 45-50, which with a Greataxe, was unimaginably unreal...