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View Full Version : How do cleric liches protect themselves?



Frosty
2010-02-18, 08:42 PM
Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells? Unless the Lich can somehow Persist Greater Spell Immunity (not all of my NPC casters abuse DMM), Disintegrate will be a huge problem. Also my PCs love to use rods and Sudden Metamagic feats to maximize there damage spells like the Orb series or Ball Lightning, and the average HP for a level 15 lich is only around 100. Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

Vaynor
2010-02-18, 08:43 PM
I think there's a template that adds your Charisma modifier to your hit points instead of Constitution, I forget what it is though.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-18, 08:51 PM
dips into an initiator class for some diamond mind

Frosty
2010-02-18, 08:54 PM
You mean the counter that let's you sub a Concentration check for a Fort save? But it doesn't fit into the character backstory of the cleric.

Gorgondantess
2010-02-18, 08:55 PM
Well, you can take a feat to be able to use the maneuver once/encounter.

Riffington
2010-02-18, 09:11 PM
Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

Sounds dangerous!

Splendor
2010-02-18, 09:53 PM
Monster Manual
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
Undead Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits.
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
—Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

Now if it's a spell you still have to make a save against...
Have your Lich wear a modified Headband of Conscious Effort. Normally that item only works 1/day, but according to the DMG magical item creation rules for x5 cost it should function at will. So for 10,000gp you make Concentration checks instead of Fort Saves.

Otherwise
Ring of Counterspells disintegrate.

Great Fort feat adds +2

Protection from Spells grants +8 vs spells.

DMG allows you to make items that grant you "other" non resistance bonuses to saves (PG285) an example is the "stone of good luck" which grants a +1 luck bonus to saves. So a +5 luck bonus would cost 50,000gp and stack with resistance bonuses.

15 Lv Lich Cleric could have a 24 Fort save without having a con score.
15 Lv Wizard could have a 20 Fort save (22 w/rat familiar).

And this is with not having any multiclass Base Fort increases.

Frosty
2010-02-18, 09:58 PM
True but I don't want to make all the other saves sky-high. Also, I don't want to give the Lich *too* much treasure since the PCs will defeat said lich at some point in the campaign.

Hmm...I think I'll just convert to the Pathfinder version of undead for the lich. D8 hitdice, uses Charisma for Fort save and bonus HP. Solves a lot of problems with one stone.

Also, I was thinking of having those cleric servants cast Shield Other on the lich.

Pyro_Azer
2010-02-18, 09:59 PM
I think there's a template that adds your Charisma modifier to your hit points instead of Constitution, I forget what it is though.

Dry lich

Which incidentaly, you get for free from being na walker in the waste which is an absolutely awesome cleric PrC.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 10:11 PM
Yes, your physical body is potentially weak. In the case of the cleric it is clearly weaker than that for the wizard lich. That may very why wizards are more likely to become lichs (and also clerics might have less uncertainty or worries about their afterlives).

The nice thing about being a lich isn't your durability. It is your ability to regenerate. Yes, a disintegrate will be unpleasant. But I come back later unless you can find and destroy my phylactery. And I'm immortal. Seems like a good enough change.

There are a number of ways of making this better anyways. There's a feat in I think Libris Mortis which allows an undead to add their charisma bonus to their fort saves for example.

Frosty
2010-02-18, 10:15 PM
Still, I don't wanna make the *encounter* too easy. Remember, defeat = exp.

Apropos
2010-02-18, 10:18 PM
Why would you worry about that? Undead aren't affected by anything that requires a fortitude save. And even then, I think they're allowed to use their charisma modifier as a bonus to fortitude saves.

To protect his HP, the lich can cast darkness or invisibility or something.

Pandaren
2010-02-18, 10:18 PM
Also, I was thinking of having those cleric servants cast Shield Other on the lich.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

Cant' stop laughing...

Is that why you were asking?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 10:25 PM
Still, I don't wanna make the *encounter* too easy. Remember, defeat = exp.

Only in the metagame.


Why would you worry about that? Undead aren't affected by anything that requires a fortitude save. And even then, I think they're allowed to use their charisma modifier as a bonus to fortitude saves.


No. Undead are not affected by things which require a fortitude save unless it can effect an object. The exact wording in the SRD is that undead have "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).


While some undead get to add their charisma to all fortitude saves, lichs are not one of them. See the lich page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).

Frosty
2010-02-18, 10:29 PM
Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

Cant' stop laughing...

Is that why you were asking?

Why is it funny? The idea first came from this yes.

Nerocite
2010-02-18, 10:32 PM
While some undead get to add their charisma to all fortitude saves, lichs are not one of them. See the lich page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm).

I think you mean Unholy Toughness, where a monster gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

I don't know anything about Fort saves.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-18, 10:38 PM
I think you mean Unholy Toughness, where a monster gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

I don't know anything about Fort saves.

That's probably it.

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-18, 10:45 PM
You can also boost his HPs a small amount with False Life.

Ashiel
2010-02-18, 11:24 PM
Find a way to cast greater teleport. Bury your phylactery on the moon, or a moon somewhere in the remotest parts of your galaxy. If needed, planet hope a few times so you can explore new planetary systems.

Don't bring your phylactery when exploring. If you end up in a black hole, accidentally mistake a star for a planet, or find a planet with some sort of inhospitable climate (say oceans and atmospheres of sulfuric acid), try again when you reform on your own planet.

Eventually, once you've charted a clever hiding place on some random dirt clod out in the furthest reaches of space; stash your phylactery there, and go back to business as usual. When you eventually gain the ability to cast genesis, make your own plane, throw your phylactery in it, and forget about it. Not even gods can enter your own plane without your permission, so you're pretty much immortal.

:smallsmile:

ericgrau
2010-02-18, 11:38 PM
Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells? Unless the Lich can somehow Persist Greater Spell Immunity (not all of my NPC casters abuse DMM), Disintegrate will be a huge problem. Also my PCs love to use rods and Sudden Metamagic feats to maximize there damage spells like the Orb series or Ball Lightning, and the average HP for a level 15 lich is only around 100. Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

Liches are already immune to 2 energy types. Resist energy and protection from energy cover 2 more, leaving only one hole. That and your DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (who carries that as a main weapon?) means HP damage is not much of a problem for liches. Really disintegrate is the only problem, and for that you buy a 24,500 gp rod of greater extend for your greater spell immunity. As a cleric you can also heal more HP than you have with a harm.

As for boosting fort saves, I'd instead see about stopping the few spells that can still affect you if possible. If there's too many then ok, fine, boost the save.

Occasional Sage
2010-02-19, 01:41 AM
Find a way to cast greater teleport. Bury your phylactery on the moon, or a moon somewhere in the remotest parts of your galaxy. If needed, planet hope a few times so you can explore new planetary systems.


As a divine lich, why not just leave your phylactery with your deity? I'm guessing the lich will be beefy enough to be on great terms with whichever is it's Big Guy.



True but I don't want to make all the other saves sky-high. Also, I don't want to give the Lich *too* much treasure since the PCs will defeat said lich at some point in the campaign.

I'd assume that the lich has made most of it's own stuff. Build in a divine version of Instant Summons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/instantSummons.htm) that can circumvent the "not in somebody else's possession" problem and drop the summoning gem with your phylactery, or deliberately curse the item while making it to bestow two negative levels (which you're immune to) whenever it's equipped or used. Or both. :smallwink:

Heck if you don't want to up the spell level of Instant Summons to steal the item back, two negative levels would get just about anything chucked into the bag of "we'll try to sell it later thanks" which in my mind means it hasn't been claimed. It's free game for an angry immortal with the ear of a God to recover at will.



To protect his HP, the lich can cast darkness or invisibility or something.
Try Blacklight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/blacklight.htm).

kentma57
2010-02-19, 01:56 AM
Well. Very well.

Godskook
2010-02-19, 02:55 AM
How practical would miss-chance equipment be? Most of the stuff you're concerned with requires attack rolls. Try optimizing your lich's AC as a monk(Wear belt + enchant a common robe with a +5 deflection bonus) If you can't get a touch-AC of at least 30, you're just not trying.

Saurus33
2010-02-19, 03:00 AM
If you wanted complete immunity to disintegrate, you could have this lich carry a "Spellblade" dagger. From Player's Guide to Faerun, gives immunity to one single-target spell, chosen at time of creation, so long as the weapon is actually being held.

olentu
2010-02-19, 03:04 AM
If you wanted complete immunity to disintegrate, you could have this lich carry a "Spellblade" dagger. From Player's Guide to Faerun, gives immunity to one single-target spell, chosen at time of creation, so long as the weapon is actually being held.

I believe that disintigrate like most rays creates an effect and is not a targeted spell. I also recall that the spellblade enchantment only protects against targeted spells.

Ashiel
2010-02-19, 03:24 AM
I had a really weird idea but...

Maybe a heightened sanctuary spell, and just sit around summoning and using your commanded and animated undead legions to do your dirty work while you're healing them? Humorously, you could end up making it so anyone attacking you would have to make a pretty high will save; especially if your wisdom is buffed for being a lich.

Multiple castings of the spell would force multiple saving throws, as well. Then you could sit back casting stuff like summon undead III to call out huge red dragon skeletons, or summon monster I-IX, or just focus on healing your armies of wights, shadows, skeletons, zombies, and wraiths.

Just some ideas. :smallsmile:

magic9mushroom
2010-02-19, 03:25 AM
Disintegrate is easy. Greater Spell Immunity (Disintegrate). Of course, this assumes he's high enough level to get Greater Spell Immunity.

Apart from that, they're just as good at defending themselves as the living.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-19, 03:45 AM
Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells?YOU'RE A FULL CASTER!
http://knowyourmeme.com/i/126/original/you_re-doing-it-wrong.jpg

faceroll
2010-02-19, 03:57 AM
You can also boost his HPs a small amount with False Life.

As well as the slow trait; 1/2 move speed for +1 hp/level.

Greenish
2010-02-19, 03:57 AM
YOU'RE A FULL CASTER!
Yes, that is the problem.It's an NPC and supposed to be defeated by players.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-19, 07:34 AM

Now if it's a spell you still have to make a save against...
Have your Lich wear a modified Headband of Conscious Effort. Normally that item only works 1/day, but according to the DMG magical item creation rules for x5 cost it should function at will. So for 10,000gp you make Concentration checks instead of Fort Saves.


No, 5 x cost means 5/day not at will.

Cyclocone
2010-02-19, 07:51 AM
Excuse me sir, can I interest You in our latest model in undead empowering?

Yes? Excellent! You see, for the low price of only 25 gp, You, sir, can become the proud owner of one lichdom acieved while inside the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. At only 25 gp this is truly a steal!

Actual lichdom, ominous chanting and virgin sacrifice not included.

Otodetu
2010-02-19, 08:03 AM
Excuse me sir, can I interest You in our latest model in undead empowering?

Yes? Excellent! You see, for the low price of only 25 gp, You, sir, can become the proud owner of one lichdom acieved while inside the area of a Desecrate spell with an evil altar present. At only 25 gp this is truly a steal!

Actual lichdom, ominous chanting and virgin sacrifice not included.

But the effect end's if you leave the area, right?

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-19, 08:09 AM
But the effect end's if you leave the area, right?Actually, it doesn't.

Too bad you can't be created by a 20th-level Dread Necromancer with Corpsecrafter and all the undead-creating feats.

Volkov
2010-02-19, 08:10 AM
My answer: Crap tons of undead. You can never have enough skeletons.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-19, 07:55 PM
The whole thing where undead and constructs don't have Constitution scores is fairly silly. Obviously some are tougher than others -- they don't all have the same HP and Fort save -- but Constitution is arbitrarily ruled out as a means of modeling that. It's unbalancing to have a template make a creature's original hit die and Con score not matter any more. And there are undead like vampires and ghouls whose feeding on the living is their primary shtick, so the idea that undead don't have metabolisms doesn't make much sense anyway.

Jack_Simth
2010-02-19, 08:04 PM
Actually, it doesn't.

Too bad you can't be created by a 20th-level Dread Necromancer with Corpsecrafter and all the undead-creating feats.
If you are a cleric, turning yourself into a lich, couldn't you have been said to have created yourself (thus, using any Corpsecrafter feats you might have, pre-casting a Desecrate spell yourself, and so on)?

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-19, 11:30 PM
If you are a cleric, turning yourself into a lich, couldn't you have been said to have created yourself (thus, using any Corpsecrafter feats you might have, pre-casting a Desecrate spell yourself, and so on)?Smells like gouda to me! :smalltongue:

Jack_Simth
2010-02-20, 12:14 AM
Smells like gouda to me! :smalltongue:
Well, yes. But if it's not the caster becoming the lich that's making the lich, who is?

Then again, consider the feat investment.
You need:
Craft Wondrous Item (required to become a lich)
CorpseCrafter (+4 Strength... but it's Enhancement, so non-stacking; +2 HP/Hit die),
Deadly Chill (+1d6 cold damage with natural weapons)
Destruction Retribution (1/2 HD D6 damage on death)
Hardened Flesh (+2 Natural Armor)
Nimble Bones (+4 Initiative, +10 foot move)
Desecrate: +2 HP/HD (rest doesn't matter after the duration expires)

That's six feats to pull this off properly. A human going Lich has that at 12th... with no other feats. Still, makes for a rather tough Clerical lich, comparatively... unless, you know, the Lich used those feats on other, more useful things - like, say, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)... which can get you Divine Power and Righteous Might all day (to go with some easy ones).

TheCountAlucard
2010-02-20, 12:28 AM
...with no other feats....unless he takes flaws. Extend Spell he gets for free with the right Domain, Extra Turning he gets for free with the right Domain, and then take two flaws to get Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell.

tyckspoon
2010-02-20, 12:33 AM
That's six feats to pull this off properly. A human going Lich has that at 12th... with no other feats. Still, makes for a rather tough Clerical lich, comparatively... unless, you know, the Lich used those feats on other, more useful things - like, say, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)... which can get you Divine Power and Righteous Might all day (to go with some easy ones).

Destructive Retribution and Deadly Chill can be skipped, as the lich should have no plans to either have to try and kill things with a natural weapon attack or get killed (and if he wants to explode on death, he can find much, much more impressive ways to do it anyway.) Those two are minion feats.

Optimator
2010-02-20, 01:46 AM
If you are a cleric, turning yourself into a lich, couldn't you have been said to have created yourself (thus, using any Corpsecrafter feats you might have, pre-casting a Desecrate spell yourself, and so on)?

Liches totally make themselves. Feats like Corpsecrafter and Desecrate work.

Ponce
2010-02-20, 03:08 AM
Corpsecrafter only applies to undead you create with necromancy spells. No where does it say that a spell is cast to turn someone in to a Lich.

Get a Spellblade for Disintegrate. Energy resistance/immunity covers the rest. Beg and plead with your DM to take Unholy Toughness as a feat (for some reason, a lot of people seem to think this is ok, but maybe that is just my experience).

Beorn080
2010-02-20, 04:53 PM
I admit this is very cheesy, but IF you can make the phylactary an intelligent magic item, and IF you can get it feats, every time it "makes" a new body, those would be applied to it.

Splendor
2010-02-21, 01:13 AM
No, 5 x cost means 5/day not at will.

DMG table 7-33 pg 285
Special--------------Base Price Adjustment
Charges per day-----Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

If you normally want to use a item only 1/day you take the full cost and divide it by 5. Thus if a item is normally usable 1/day you should be able to times the cost by 5 to make it usable at will.

Frosty
2010-02-22, 06:18 PM
Corpsecrafter only applies to undead you create with necromancy spells. No where does it say that a spell is cast to turn someone in to a Lich.

Get a Spellblade for Disintegrate. Energy resistance/immunity covers the rest. Beg and plead with your DM to take Unholy Toughness as a feat (for some reason, a lot of people seem to think this is ok, but maybe that is just my experience).

I *am* the DM. I'm converting a former mentor of the PCs into a lich enemy, so feat choices have to make SENSE and be specifically cheesed-out.