[4e] Marking

[nepphi]

As we know, Defenders are based largely on their ability to mark and hinder targets. Since marks don't stack, it creates the question of marking priority - specifically how a party resolves the question of who marks what.

I'm sure normally it isn't a problem, but it can create an issue.

So what are some ways you all resolve this conflict, if indeed it's ever a bother? Do you prefer to do it ooc, or icly?

[AtopTheMountain]

I'm pretty sure that the newest mark supersedes all older ones, unless the power description says that it can't be superseded (like some paladin powers from Complete Divine, i think).

[nepphi]

I believe I already said that.

Given that we know that you can't stack marks, how do you resolve who gets to mark what? How do you arrange it so that you're not cancelling someone else's marks and possible combos they want to set up?

[AtopTheMountain]

Ohh... that's what you meant. Sorry.

It probably depends on several factors: Who marked first? Who's mark has the greatest effect? (e.g. IMO Warden < Fighter < Paladin < Swordmage) Can someone easily mark a different target? Who has a specific combo they want to set up? Does someone have an ability they can only use on a marked target?

[nepphi]

Do you prefer to discuss it OOC and just deal with it as it comes, or are you one to hash it out in-character?

[cupkeyk]

We discuss it out of game. Since my fighter can only mark creatures he engages and a pally can choose, we typically engage the same guy while he shoots his mark across to whoever is accosting our squishies.

[nepphi]

That of course leads up a tangental question, do you prefer to mark something you aren't engaging (such as paladins can do), or ones you -are- engaging and use powers that boost on marked targets?

[Kylarra]

That of course leads up a tangental question, do you prefer to mark something you aren't engaging (such as paladins can do), or ones you -are- engaging and use powers that boost on marked targets?It depends on the defender.

Swordmages and paladin tend to be best at marking something they're not engaging. Fighters and wardens tend to mark everything in their near vicinity.

[cupkeyk]

spreading damage around is never a good idea, while spreading marks around are. I don't know how our paladin is built(chaladin) but he always fights who i am fighting and throws his mark to a different creature(who is usually already attacking us anyway). Our paladin's secondary role is leader so dipping into the striker/controller roles are not in his resume.

[Delcan]

When we had two defenders in our group, we would have two different strategies, based on what kind of fight we were seeing. I play a middling-damage high-control fighter, and the other player played a high-damage meh-everything-else fighter.

Strategy 1: Cover all bases. Damage fighter would head out to see what she could mess up the most, and I headed out to find who was going to be aggravating. This way our marks stayed away from each other, for the most part.

Strategy 2: Multi-mark madness. Low-damage fighter and high-damage fighter choose a single aggravating target and take turns:
1. Provoking opportunity attack by doing something stupid or grabbing a quick advantage of spacing. If they swung, so did the other fighter.
2. Swinging and marking.

All of this was done very in-character. Our DM(s) started to get very familiar with situations when the two fighters pointed out a target and said "Let's have some fun."

This way, we could do horrific things to unintelligent or simply belligerent monsters who couldn't help but try to bring a fighter down, while unleashing more mark attacks than we knew what to do with. If they didn't swing, then we had their butts locked down tighter than the port-a-potties at a chili festival.

Remember, multiple marks aren't a handicap - they're a wonderful opportunity. :smallcool:

[valadil]

We rule that a new mark can override an existing one. But everyone asks permission before marking. Only one guy I've played with has been a **** about stealing marks or denying other people the opportunity to mark.

[Kurald Galain]

We rule that a new mark can override an existing one.
So does the PHB.

You can do some nasty tricks with dual marks. For instance,
(1) fighter marks bad guy
(2) ally runs by, provoking an OA
(3) either the bad guy doesn't dare to OA, or he gets whacked by the fighter. That's a lose/lose situation for him.
(4) swordmage overrides the mark, and runs away
(5) bad guy's turn, and he's again in a lose/lose situation.

[RebelRogue]

You can do some nasty tricks with dual marks. For instance,
(1) fighter marks bad guy
(2) ally runs by, provoking an OA
I had this player who played a halfling sorcerer that let the group's fighter mark an enemy after which he ran by trying to provoke an OA so the fighter could trigger the Challenge. And when I chose not to take the OA? He usually used a ranged sorcerer power while adjacent to the enemy to lure me to make an OA once more. I thought that was pretty clever for a twelve year old kid as far as tactics go!

It has little to do with multiple marks though... Sorry for being OT.

[Swordgleam]

My party usually ended up in a situation where the fighter would stand in the middle of combat marking everything he could reach, and the pally would mark one guy and then chase it all around the battlefield. But my party is probably a good example of the worst possible tactics in every situation.

[incubus5075]

Ohh... that's what you meant. Sorry.

It probably depends on several factors: Who marked first? Who's mark has the greatest effect? (e.g. IMO Warden < Fighter < Paladin < Swordmage) Can someone easily mark a different target? Who has a specific combo they want to set up? Does someone have an ability they can only use on a marked target?

Errrr what? Swordmage, defender is the greatest in my opinion. at lvl 11 my group's swordmage is blocking 19 pts of dmg....that is most if not all the dmg most creatures can dish out.

[DragonBaneDM]

Errrr what? Swordmage, defender is the greatest in my opinion. at lvl 11 my group's swordmage is blocking 19 pts of dmg....that is most if not all the dmg most creatures can dish out.

Thus why the greater than sign is pointing towards the swordmage, sir.

[Kurald Galain]

Warden < Fighter < Paladin < Swordmage
That assumes Divine Power in play; otherwise it would be Paladin << Warden < Fighter < Swordmage. I haven't read Martial Power 2 yet but I suspect it may move the fighter back up a few notches.

Incidentally, note how paladin and swordmage marks are a minor action, whereas fighter and warden marks are not. Around early paragon levels, minor actions become a precious commodity to many characters.

[DragonBaneDM]

Hm...What reason would the DM have to put Divine Power not in play, though?

[Sipex]

For other marks (non-defender marks) I find there's usually an etiquette

ie: Don't mark something the defender has already marked unless he goes right after you.

Of course, usually my party arranges it so whomever marks either goes immediately before the defenders or concentrates on marking OTHER enemies...like what is going after the squishies but isn't marked by the fighter.

[Kurald Galain]

Hm...What reason would the DM have to put Divine Power not in play, though?
Because some DMs demand that their game is PHB only, or perhaps PHB+FRPG only, or something like that. I have no idea how common this is, but I suspect that a significant amount of players do not buy all the books and neither want to pay a monthly subscription fee.

[DragonBaneDM]

I see your point.

[Dimers]

Here's another marking question for the Playground. A fighter marks everything he attacks, and it doesn't matter if the attack is melee or weapon-based. Does anyone have any insight into how effective it would be to use a hybrid or multiclass fighter to mark lots of enemies using conjurations and AoE spells?

[Kurald Galain]

Here's another marking question for the Playground. A fighter marks everything he attacks, and it doesn't matter if the attack is melee or weapon-based. Does anyone have any insight into how effective it would be to use a hybrid or multiclass fighter to mark lots of enemies using conjurations and AoE spells?
The combat challenge you can make in response to your mark is an immediate action. You get only one of those per turn, so this combo isn't so great.

[Indon]

The combat challenge you can make in response to your mark is an immediate action. You get only one of those per turn, so this combo isn't so great.

It is, however, a good way to potentially throw a lot of -3's around to attackers, making it a more controllery-flavored tactic.

[Krrth]

In our group, we usually talk about if (briefly) ooc. Usually we don't have a problem, although we have had one or two players who simply don't care and mark everything.

If it helps, the way it tends to work is that the Paladin marks something, my Swordmage marks the biggest damage dealer (and then fights something else), and the fighter ties up a few critters as well.

[Yakk]

Hybrid fighters only mark things they attack with fighter powers.

[AtwasAwamps]

Here's another marking question for the Playground. A fighter marks everything he attacks, and it doesn't matter if the attack is melee or weapon-based. Does anyone have any insight into how effective it would be to use a hybrid or multiclass fighter to mark lots of enemies using conjurations and AoE spells?

A fighter marks anything he makes an attack roll against. Thus, a multi-classed fighter with an AoE power or a half-elf with a dilettante AoE power still marks the targets that are attacked with that power as he would if he was smacking them with a fighter power.

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Hybrid fighters CANNOT do this. There is a specific clause in the way they work that states Hybrid Fighters only mark with Fighter Powers. Thus a multiclass fighter taking some AoE powers gets a bit of versatility with its marks that a hybrid would not.

[nepphi]

There's some truly glorious damage a good defender can do if they time their marks and powers right. Nothing approaching striker level, but I've had a few good stacks work out.

Such as a Justiciar mass-marking a squad of baddies with Arc of Vengeance, blowing an action point to attack one of them (weakening all adjacent to him), and then moving back to let the other defender play with some OAs.

It's been glimpsed at so far, but does anyone have any horror stories of people who wouldn't respect marking etiquette, and how you dealt with it?

[Sinfire Titan]

We discuss it out of game. Since my fighter can only mark creatures he engages and a pally can choose, we typically engage the same guy while he shoots his mark across to whoever is accosting our squishies.

I've always ruled that the Pally can mark anyone, without it overriding another character's mark. That's been how I read the ability since the book was printed.

[Shardan]

Truly, the tactics you use will differ between combats and between party make up and specific tactics.

Our party, generally we had 1 defender on the BBEG (or biggest threat) of the fight, and the other on crowd control. (we had an Eladrin cleric that was very good at going first and Minion checking so only legitimate threats were left in crowd control)

[Master_Rahl22]

The only games I've been in with multiple defenders also had 6-8 players in it. In that case, both defenders simply split up and each took care of a certain spot on the battlefield or certain enemies or whatever. We had one case where it would've been awesome for my Warden to move to a certain spot and override the Pally's mark on one of the enemies, just for the situation. OOC he told me that I really shouldn't override it, because of what he was going to do his next turn. He used some racial or CD or something that let him completely disappear for a turn, so everything he had marked just had to waste their turn or eat the attack penalty and auto-damage.

[Mando Knight]

That assumes Divine Power in play; otherwise it would be Paladin << Warden < Fighter < Swordmage.

Except against one specific target, if the group is at least level 11, and the Paladin is a Strength Paladin who went into the Champion of Order PP. Certain Justice is fantastic, especially against Elites or Solos. He just needs to hit once, then switch to a Javelin and stick next to the dazed, weakened, and marked opponent while throwing things at the other enemies.

Another option to take advantage of it is a Swordmage Champion of Order, marking with Aegis of Assault and then leaving the guy alone to die.

[BlckDv]

Here's another marking question for the Playground. A fighter marks everything he attacks, and it doesn't matter if the attack is melee or weapon-based. Does anyone have any insight into how effective it would be to use a hybrid or multiclass fighter to mark lots of enemies using conjurations and AoE spells?

Funny you should ask. One of my players submitted to me a Tempest Fighter MC Invoker with Paragon Multiclassing (level 11) two weeks ago.... first Paragon Multiclass I've ever had put across my desk. He wields a Quarterstaff as a dual weapon, has binding Invocation of Chains (Because nothing says "over here" like a close burst 10 mark everything) and the Invoker at-will that raises the Mark penalty to -4. Other Invoker powers are close blasts for more multimark, with the raise your defenses on close attacks Invoker feats.

In pure CharOp terms it may not be the best build, but he sure has fun being sticky, and the player having fun at the table is the ultimate gauge of "optimizing" in my book.

[AtwasAwamps]

Funny you should ask. One of my players submitted to me a Tempest Fighter MC Invoker with Paragon Multiclassing (level 11) two weeks ago.... first Paragon Multiclass I've ever had put across my desk. He wields a Quarterstaff as a dual weapon, has binding Invocation of Chains (Because nothing says "over here" like a close burst 10 mark everything) and the Invoker at-will that raises the Mark penalty to -4. Other Invoker powers are close blasts for more multimark, with the raise your defenses on close attacks Invoker feats.

In pure CharOp terms it may not be the best build, but he sure has fun being sticky, and the player having fun at the table is the ultimate gauge of "optimizing" in my book.

....

I..I can make Ghost Rider.