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SouthpawHare
2010-02-18, 09:57 PM
A question regarding dopplegangers and will saves...

It is said that Dopplegangers have the ability to use Detect Thoughts at will, turn it on and off as they wish, and that they gain a bonus to Disguise and Bluff while using it on people they are trying to bluff/disguise from. It also says that the target gets a will save to resist it. To me, this seems a bit contradictory.

As I understand, whenever someone is given a will save to negate an effect, they are supposed to be aware that something is trying to affect them. Not just out-of-game, but in-character as well. Even if they can not tell the exact effect, they are immediately aware upon making the save that they are being effected by a mental ability. Therefore, how is Detect Thoughts supposed to be used covertly? It seems like this ability was designed without this contradiction in mind, and that they are supposed to be able to detect any thoughts they want all the time without alerting people that they are doing so. However, I don't believe it works this way, and being effected by a sudden unknown mental spell-like ability would seem rather suspicious.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Admiral Squish
2010-02-18, 10:03 PM
I think that most will save spells are more active, whereas detect thoughts is more passive. You would mentally fight off a dominate person, but read thoughts doesn't actively push against your mind, just reads what it's broadcasting.

SouthpawHare
2010-02-18, 10:24 PM
I would think that it would be that way, in flavor... But then, when does the target "get" their save, if they don't know it's happening at all?

mummy162
2010-02-18, 10:29 PM
If you want to give PCs will saves against Detect Thoughts, just roll it behind your DM screen.

Scoot
2010-02-18, 10:30 PM
I'd say that's a will save the DM rolls in secret. If they fail, they remain unaware. If they make the save, they're alerted.

Yuki Akuma
2010-02-18, 10:32 PM
Yes, roll the saves secretly - but if they make the save, they should know, because that's how Will saves work.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-19, 06:29 AM
They won't notice anything if they fail their save. If they pass, they'll feel like something tried to penetrate their mind but won't know who or what. Therefore, successful dopplegangers are the ones who don't get caught.

Optimystik
2010-02-19, 07:30 AM
This is the "walk up to the guard and charm him" argument all over again.

I agree with Yuki that he will know something just tried to poke into his head. Whether he knows that that something came from you, however, is debatable and probably up to the DM.

Beelzebub1111
2010-02-19, 07:31 AM
Pass a note to the players who made their saves saying "You feel a twitch in the back of your mind" the doppleganger would realize that they failed and would need to make it seem like they were affected as well...like they should suddenly stop what they're doing to simulate a hold person spell.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-19, 07:21 PM
As I understand, whenever someone is given a will save to negate an effect, they are supposed to be aware that something is trying to affect them.
Only if they make the save.


Therefore, how is Detect Thoughts supposed to be used covertly?
The usual way that things are done covertly; by not letting people see you doing it. Don't look at the people whose minds you're scanning in an obvious way. (But do be aware of who's in the area of the effect, so you can know that people are saving against it; you're not automatically aware of that like with targeted spells, and can only tell because you see people whose thoughts you're not detecting.) If your thought detection fails, then don't approach those people for now, since they'll be suspicious. Go look for other people to manipulate.

Apparently, the DC for this ability goes up by 1 for every 2 levels that a doppelganger has, since it's just based on hit dice, rather than specifically on racial hit dice like poison DCs. So if you give a doppelganger character levels, it can maintain the relative efficacy of this ability against level-appropriate foes. (You'll probably want to boost its Charisma and give it the Ability Focus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus), too.) That's good to know.


I think that most will save spells are more active, whereas detect thoughts is more passive. You would mentally fight off a dominate person, but read thoughts doesn't actively push against your mind, just reads what it's broadcasting.
With all due respect, it seems rather absurd to suggest that creatures continually, naturally broadcast their thoughts and continually, naturally, subconsciously attempt to suppress this broadcast. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that the spell gives a Will save because it causes a mind to broadcast its thoughts when it would not normally do so?

Using that guideline, we can infer that creatures and/or objects naturally "broadcast" from their locations: their forms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateCreature.htm), whether they're under magical effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm), their alignments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm), their emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathy.htm), and whether they're living, undead, constructs, or objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm); all of this is "public" information that has to be actively hidden to be concealed. On the other hand, creatures do not naturally broadcast their thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectThoughts.htm) nor whether they're lying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLies.htm); these things are "private" information that has to be forcibly solicited to be perceived.


But then, when does the target "get" their save, if they don't know it's happening at all?
Well, you're only aware that you made a save if you pass it. Making the save lets you know that something happened, not vice versa.