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View Full Version : What's the most elegant piece of optimization you've ever seen?



faceroll
2010-02-19, 03:44 AM
For me, I'd have to say Saph's Horizon Tripper. It's all Core, non-caster, and does cool stuff before level 15. It doesn't require convoluted backstory, a mess of splatbooks, or questionable interpretation. Given the tools, it's a beautifully constructed build.

What builds or tricks do you find elegant? They don't have to be the best, or even your favorite, but should have some sense of making the impossible possible (in a meta-sense, not a caster-fap sense).

absolmorph
2010-02-19, 04:29 AM
Given a few levels, Bubs can raise most creatures. You should be able to guarantee a success by level 15.
Meaning that you don't need to worry about rolling poorly, you're guaranteed to be able to raise those battle titans.
At level 15 (with one level of Exemplar), you can get a Handle Animal modifier of +105 at the cost of 160500 gp, with one custom item. Oh, and you can take ten, giving you a guaranteed check of 115. You can now train any magical beast with up to 75 HD. The Tarrasque has 48 HD. Oh, and at level 16 you'll be able to guarantee training 3 HD creatures in a minute.
(18 Ranks, +11 Charisma, +30 Custom Item, +11 Motivate Charisma, +18 Item Familiar, +2 affiliation, +2 Animal Affinity, +3 Skill Focus, +4 Skill Artistry, +3 Circlet of Persuasion, +1 Uncivilized, +1 Flexible Mind, +1 Ioun Stone)

Yes, this is ridiculous. Yes, I calculated this entirely for my amusement. No, I didn't use all the stuff that boosts Handle Animal.

lord_khaine
2010-02-19, 04:37 AM
My personal favorit is the combination of psionoc powers that allows you to "save" your game at the start of the day, and then revert to that point in time if you die or something equaly nasty happens to you.

Book Wyrm
2010-02-19, 04:40 AM
The Scout 3/Ranger 17 Swift Ambusher build. Only two classes, both of which mix very well thematically and mechanically. Really only needs Dex and some Wisdom. Can become effective two weapon fighter or ranged combatant. The feat and properly chosen Favored Enemies eliminates the one weakness of Skirmish damage. The Dungeonscape ACF for the Ranger allows for continuation of the Scout's main skill monkey ability. Can be augmented and boosted by small changes like Dervish levels for a two weapon fighter, a level of Cleric and Travel Devotion, a level of Lion Totem Barbarian, or two levels of Swordsage; all of which still fit the character concept of the build.

faceroll
2010-02-19, 04:54 AM
My personal favorit is the combination of psionoc powers that allows you to "save" your game at the start of the day, and then revert to that point in time if you die or something equaly nasty happens to you.

That one is really neat. It's like one of those FF7 save crystals.


The Scout 3/Ranger 17 Swift Ambusher build. Only two classes, both of which mix very well thematically and mechanically. Really only needs Dex and some Wisdom. Can become effective two weapon fighter or ranged combatant. The feat and properly chosen Favored Enemies eliminates the one weakness of Skirmish damage. The Dungeonscape ACF for the Ranger allows for continuation of the Scout's main skill monkey ability. Can be augmented and boosted by small changes like Dervish levels for a two weapon fighter, a level of Cleric and Travel Devotion, a level of Lion Totem Barbarian, or two levels of Swordsage; all of which still fit the character concept of the build.

I've always wanted to make one of those, except using the 6th level casting variant ranger from DR, and the feat that gets you wizard spells. Definitely a very solid build, despite the poor "patch" nature that WotC implemented it with, imo. Circumvents most weaknesses without taking the campaign off the rails.

weenie
2010-02-19, 05:02 AM
If your DM lets you qualify for Daring Outlaw with the assasin's stance, then Swordsage/Swashbuckler is a pretty nice combo. With Shadow blade you get both Int and Dex to damage, and besides Con, those two are the only good stats you need. You also get lots of sneak attack, not as much as a straight rogue, but still quite a bit, so it is a great build for flanking. Quite a few skill points too!

sonofzeal
2010-02-19, 05:06 AM
The Mailman, the Omniscificer, and the guy who worked out how to build a fully functional Star Destroyer in D&D.

Tavar
2010-02-19, 05:09 AM
When you get down to it, the original pun-pun builds(the straight psion or wizard ones) are pretty elegant.

I'll have to agree on the Horizon Tripper, though. It's the best usable cheese I've seen in a long time. Though the sandwich or star destroyer builds would also be fun.


I'm actually going to disagree on the normal swift hunter. I've played it, and it gets old fast.

Edit; What is the mailman? I've heard it referenced, but never actually scene it.

Book Wyrm
2010-02-19, 05:18 AM
Two other builds I really like both use the bard class, which is almost unheard of.

First, Combining bard and either crusader or warblade with Song of the White Raven, especially if you put ranks in perform(oratory). Classic warlord/marshal character that is way more effective than the marshal class. Simplest is Bard 4 (or Bard 3/Marshal 1)/ Warblade or Crusader X.

Second, the Dragonfire Inspiration Bard. Straight up bard works, but if you combine in 2 levels of Seeker of the Song and as many levels of Sublime Chord you end up with 9 level casting and the ability to use Inspire Courage and DFI at the same time. Can cheese it out with BoED Words of Creation taking 3d4 non-lethal and doubling your Inspire Courage bonus or taking some Draconic feats and getting sonic DFI damage.

You can even combine the two: Silverbrow Human with Able Learner feat Bard 2/Crusader 8/Seeker of the Song 2/Crusader 8. Initiator level of 19, 4 uses of bardic music per day, cold damage DFI, and with some good feat and equipment selection good DFI and Inspire Courage bonuses that will last all fight.

Jayngfet
2010-02-19, 05:22 AM
I've always loved my Monk/Duskblade build personally. In both places you're spending all day training, concentrating, and contemplating on metaphysical things in order to channel the power of the universe through your hands. The monks Extra attack and the Duskblades Swift 1/day give you two extra attacks, and neither relies too heavily on armor at least initially. You really don't need any fancy weapons or armor or amazing materials to shine. You can add levels of cleric, paladin, fighter, or just about anything that requires training. It fits thematically in any group that isn't centered around outright chaos.

a typical hero
2010-02-19, 06:03 AM
...the Omniscificer, and the guy who worked out how to build a fully functional Star Destroyer in D&D.

:smallconfused:

Would you mind to elaborate, please?

mikej
2010-02-19, 06:07 AM
Hmm soo many gems

I second the Bard thingy. Even though I dislike Bards, the Bard/Warblade is one of my fav. Bard3/Warblade17, using Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of White Raven, and other IC boosting stuff.

Swift Hunter builds with the Travel Devotion + 1st lv dip into Cleric ( possible Nightsticks ) are nice too. Mystic Ranger is awesome. WS Ranger/MoMF is pretty good as well.

My absolute favourite is Fleshraker Dinosaur + Natural Bond shenanigans. It's soo good and I've done it.

Cyclocone
2010-02-19, 06:18 AM
The Archon of Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137260&).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-19, 06:27 AM
A Wizard-based Shadowcraft Mage build would be my favorite. Between ACFs, substitution levels, Master Specialist 4, Residual Magic, and Signature Spell, it's able to achieve an extreme level of both versatility and offensive power without really sacrificing anything at all. You can convert prepared spells to spontaneously cast most of two schools from the entire sorcerer/wizard spell list, at an inflated caster level and DC and from lower level slots than the spells themselves, and then from 0-level slots on every second cast. This allows you to prepare extremely situational spells for just in case you need that trump card, because it can be converted to any spell of those schools on the fly if you didn't need it after all. You can also make the bulk of your prepared spells focused on utility, buffs, and solving problems, then convert them to offensive spells as needed. Without even considering supercheese tricks like shadow miracles this is among the top three most powerful playable wizard builds at any given level, and in the hands of a skilled/creative player with an encyclopedic knowledge of spells it ends up being the most powerful during actual play.

Optimystik
2010-02-19, 07:21 AM
Edit; What is the mailman? I've heard it referenced, but never actually scene it.

It's a sorcerer build whose only job is to deliver the mail. (Specifically, heaping piles of direct damage.)

Here you go. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer)


My personal favorit is the combination of psionoc powers that allows you to "save" your game at the start of the day, and then revert to that point in time if you die or something equaly nasty happens to you.

That one I've heard of, but never actually seen myself. Do you have a link? I wonder if Hyperconscious could make it better.

My favorites are the Mystic Disciple (the Eldritch Disciple/Mystic Theurge build that gets 9ths and Dark Invocations without using Ur-Priest) and the Uncardent (Ardent/Psion Uncarnate that still gets 9th-level powers.)

Amphetryon
2010-02-19, 07:29 AM
I like this build by Nanshork on WotC. I like it even more because it's an example of convergent evolution...

Frostblood Half-Orc
Monk 1/ Half-Orc Paragon 3/ Stoneblessed 3/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Deepwarden 5/ Frostrager 5
Alignment: Any Lawful
Variants: Overwhelming Attack school

1 Monk - Great Fortitude, Improved Unarmed Strike(b), Power Attack(b), Endurance(b)
2 Half-Orc Paragon
3 Half-Orc Paragon - Extra Rage
4 Stoneblessed (Dwarf)
5 Stoneblessed (Dwarf)
6 Stoneblessed (Dwarf) - Superior Unarmed Strike
7 Fist of the Forest
8 Fist of the Forest
9 Fist of the Forest - Frozen Berserker
10 Frostrager - Track(b)
11 Deepwarden
12 Deepwarden - Hammer Fist
13 Frostrager
14 Frostrager
15 Frostrager - Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
16 Frostrager
17 Half-Orc Paragon
18 Deepwarden - Extra Rage
19 Deepwarden
20 Deepwarden

Other feats of interest: Steadfast Determination, Reckless Rage

Cyclocone
2010-02-19, 07:36 AM
That one I've heard of, but never actually seen myself. Do you have a link? I wonder if Hyperconscious could make it better.

Here you go. (http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/9f4686b3f6_0.34MB)

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 10:23 AM
Pally of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 2/Crusader 2/Ur-Priest 2/RKV 10 using Elder Evils for bonus feats.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-19, 10:53 AM
I've always liked the save game trick.

I'm also quite fond of "Focused Specialist Conjuror 1/Binder 1/ Master Specialist 3/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 8/Anima Mage 5" for BBEGs -- Not only is it fairly strong, it's also quite flavorful: A dark mage steals power from Cthuhlu (vestiges) and the gods themselves.

FishAreWet
2010-02-19, 10:57 AM
I know this is a lame answer but... Pun Pun. Not the original Manipulate From trick, but the expansion of it. Like how he gains infinite reach.

Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 1/Renevant Blade 5/ Frenzied Bezerker 10 is also a favorite.

Telonius
2010-02-19, 11:26 AM
:smallconfused:

Would you mind to elaborate, please?

Google-fu is failing me, but as I remember it somebody had abused Leadership and/or the "assist another" rules on crafting to bump up the bonus to absurd levels. They somehow were able to wave away the 1/3 initial cost of the materials. End result was the ability to build a Super Star Destroyer within a week.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-19, 11:28 AM
Google-fu is failing me, but as I remember it somebody had abused Leadership and/or the "assist another" rules on crafting to bump up the bonus to absurd levels. They somehow were able to wave away the 1/3 initial cost of the materials. End result was the ability to build a Super Star Destroyer within a week.

Yeah, search Living In a Flying Box for a living fortress build. Not exactly a star-destroyer, but close enough. The same concept can be applied to any large object, actually.

Doc Roc
2010-02-19, 11:45 AM
There's the good old The Big Guy Is With Me build...

9mm
2010-02-19, 11:48 AM
I... am a total sucker of true blue Fighter 20 optimiization, gattling tripper, Jack b. Quick, Mage lockdown.

Death Metal Bard is fun as well, as is some swift hunter tricks, and horizen tripper.

also Bubz the monster rancher.

Indon
2010-02-19, 11:49 AM
I haven't seen that many, but I'm a big fan of nothin-but-dip builds that manage to turn around and unite disparate 1-4 levels in various classes into a single theme.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-19, 12:04 PM
I like the high AC Cloistered Cleric. There's a nice little wrinkle in the rules that helps here.

1) Start with the right clothing.
Scholar’s Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus if you cast Magic Vestment:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13 already) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

Longcat
2010-02-19, 12:08 PM
Druid 20.

It's all there, all core, no fancy tricks. It does not require high ability scores, you're free to choose your feats (other than Natural Spell), and you can fluff it all you like.

Starscream
2010-02-19, 12:18 PM
If gestalt combinations are allowed, than gestalting with Monk is a surprisingly simple and elegant way to improve almost any class.

Anyone can benefit from three good saves, an AC bonus, enhanced speed, extra attacks per round, self-healing, and so forth.

It helps casters even more (as if they need it). The eventual lack of aging means you can acquire bonuses to your casting stats with no penalty, becoming an outsider opens up lots of new options for alter self and polymorph, and divine casters who use wisdom as their casting stat can have massive AC bonuses without even needing armor. Monk//Druid is especially potent, as you keep your Wis-To-AC even while Wild Shaped.

Basically the worst core class in the game is also one of the most complimentary. And while all of the goodies outlined above are nice, none are particularly broken or cheesy. It's a nice, flavorful power boost without breaking the game.

lsfreak
2010-02-19, 12:35 PM
Eldariel's bard-based arcane archer build.

Sinfire's already-posted debuffer build.

Bard3/Warblade 17 with standard melee/DFI combinations.

Jack B. Quick, even though it doesn't work as well if you follow FAQ.

LichPrinceAlim
2010-02-19, 12:36 PM
My favorites are the least obvious combinations.

I liked a build that used fighter and crusader with help from LoM and BoVD to literally trip anything within 70+ feet and get unreal AoOs against basically anything that exists within his reach. (It also has a Ghost Touch Spiked Chain that has one homebrew effect called Planetouch, which allows its wielder to hit targets in other planes)

My other was a build that gave Warforged the ability to become Souleaters. I even played a variant using Warblade over Fighter.

erikun
2010-02-19, 01:31 PM
Arcane Heirophant/Mystic Theurge - Rather obvious in retrospect, but it combines two 10/10 prestige classes (which have the problem of stopping after 10 levels) together to get full progression on both sides past level 20.

Ultimate Magus + Practiced Spellcaster - It takes the Ultimate Magus, normally a loss of 4 wizard caster levels, mostly up front, and turns it into a loss of just 2 caster levels, the second delayed until 14th level. Lost caster levels hurt, especially grouped together.

Thrawn183
2010-02-19, 01:34 PM
I'm a fan to the original work on multiclassing martial initiator classes. Granted a lot of that is reliant on the elegance of how those classes multiclass in the first place, but I love how well it works, and it's so simple!

Mongoose87
2010-02-19, 01:42 PM
I'm a fan to the original work on multiclassing martial initiator classes. Granted a lot of that is reliant on the elegance of how those classes multiclass in the first place, but I love how well it works, and it's so simple!

The Crusader x/Swordsage 1/Master of Nine 5 is pretty shiny.

Pandaren
2010-02-19, 02:02 PM
Um, a fairly easy one.


Bard + Evangelist-

Max ranks in Diplomacy; +2 with negotiator feat; +3 with skill focus; with a +6 synergy bonus by having 5 ranks in sensemotive, knowledge nobility, and bluff; Fast Talk ability (-5 but only takes full round action.) along with Skill Mastery Ability just means it's an automatic 5 base roll;

This pretty much means by 12th level your Diplonacy will be an automatic 31 + CHA

And using any type of magic item, say "Ring of Diplomacy" means 41 automatic, which equals any monster Helpful in 1 or 2 rounds.

gorfnab
2010-02-19, 03:11 PM
Warlock 4/ Binder 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10/ Hellfire Warlock 3
Interesting flavor with a build that just fits together nicely.

Human Paragon 3
2010-02-19, 03:55 PM
Uberchaging barbarian is about as elegant as it gets IMO.

Wings of Peace
2010-02-19, 05:22 PM
Monty :smallsmile:

Pluto
2010-02-19, 05:40 PM
These are rather low on the CO totem pole, but I find them to be incredibly elegant for various reasons:

Swordsage 2/Warlock 3/Chameleon 7/Master of Masks 8
(S1/W2/S1/W/C7/MoM8)
I like finishing with 10/10 Chameleon casting levels and the dual-focus. The floating feat works nicely with Martial Study and Swordsage levels to fill prerequisites. Master of Masks just feels right here.

Bard 9/Virtuoso 10/Sublime Chord 1
(B9/V1/SC2/V8)
Like a Bard, but more so in every way. I like the way that Inspire Greatness, the dead Virtuoso level and Sublime Chord's prerequisite skill ranks sync together. I like finishing the Virtuoso PrC (which, asthetic reasons aside, is a nifty little ability).

Abjurer 3/Master Abjurer 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7
(A3/MA6/Iot7V 7/MA4)
Completes both PrCs without level dips and with just enough Wizard levels for the Familiar to deliver touch spells. This is rare for the Iot7V. Also, MA's benefits and Iot7V's requirements jibe very nicely.

Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 6/Warmind 5:
(P4/S1/W1/S1/W4/S4)
Notable Feats: Serenity
5th level powers, sweeping strike. Uses Wisdom for pretty much everything, very elegant, IMO.

Gestalt:
Archivist 20//Warblade 6/Fighter 2/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10
(A//W3/F1/C1/W1/F1/C1/W4/EB10)
Notable Feats: Knowledge Devotion
The focus on Knowledge makes it feel cohesive. The level fiddling for 3rd level Warblade and Crusader stances feels very elegant.

Tokiko Mima
2010-02-19, 07:03 PM
I just like how Warlock and Pixie fit together. :smallsmile:

sonofzeal
2010-02-19, 07:22 PM
:smallconfused:

Would you mind to elaborate, please?

The Omnicificer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer). This was back when Pun-Pun ascended at level 5 (via Divine Minion), rather than the current Pazuzu ascension. Omnsicificer was designed as a rational counter, by being able to discover the ascension before it happens and hence, presumably, stop it. Very clever, very tight, very fun.



The Star Destroyer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=150.msg1246#msg1246). Just read it, it's worth it.

Runestar
2010-02-19, 11:18 PM
I recall a thread some time back at gleemax about a player asking for help fleshing out his new PC, who was the daughter of a werebear barbarian and succubus bard (both PCs from a previous campaign).

The end result was something along the lines of bard+barb, followed by a mix of ragemage, spellsword, sublime chord, bear warrior, topped off with eldritch knight9. There may have been 1 or 2 other pcs I missed out though.

It wasn't that strong (a druid20 probably still is stronger), but it fit his expectations and backstory to a perfect T. That was the scene which sold me on the stormwind fallacy.

IthilanorStPete
2010-02-20, 12:07 AM
From the Test of Spite: The Borg Cube. Mils' Love's Pain build.

tyckspoon
2010-02-20, 12:23 AM
The Omnicificer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer). This was back when Pun-Pun ascended at level 5 (via Divine Minion), rather than the current Pazuzu ascension. Omnsicificer was designed as a rational counter, by being able to discover the ascension before it happens and hence, presumably, stop it. Very clever, very tight, very fun.


All of LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks are like that (the Save Point and the psionic sandwich are also his work). Well worth looking up if you can find a good archive of them; the original work was destroyed in one of Wizard/Gleemax's multiple meltdowns.

BenTheJester
2010-02-20, 12:45 AM
Duskblade 13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil

Not much multiclass, and doesn't abuse the IotSV as much as a wizard could.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-20, 01:23 AM
I've always like Kurald Galain's Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) for sheer ridiculousness of powah. 9th level slots in arcane, divine, and psionics, plus decent ability in other routes like binding, incarnum, and UMD? Pretty classy. :smallbiggrin:

Akal Saris
2010-02-20, 01:25 AM
Here's some of the most elegant builds I've seen. I think Pluto and I are on the same page here as far as builds go - all of the ones that he posted look quite lovely to me really.

Abjurer 3/Master Abjurer 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7: one that came to mind immediately, Pluto already mentioned it though

Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Malconvoker 7: another simple build that I love

Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Arcane Archer 10: it's the only good arcane archer build I've seen, with BAB/CL 20 and lots of nifty tricks.

Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 with Daring Outlaw - the build I made for this is probably my favorite "elegant" build, it's one that combines poison, crossbow, and two-weapon fighting into a single sneaky swashbuckling drow character.

Scout 3/Ranger 17 with Swift Hunter (I'm playing this one at the moment)

Warblade 10/Eternal Champion 10

Monk 2/PsyWarr 18 with Tashlatora

Most of those above aren't that powerful, but I like their simplicity. The Star Destroyer thread, on the other hand, or most of LordofProcrastination's stuff, is generally pretty messy.

Sophismata
2010-02-20, 01:43 AM
Chuck.

No items. No preparation.

Doc Roc
2010-02-20, 01:50 AM
All of LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks are like that (the Save Point and the psionic sandwich are also his work). Well worth looking up if you can find a good archive of them; the original work was destroyed in one of Wizard/Gleemax's multiple meltdowns.

This is incorrect. Both the save point and the sandwich belong to the inimitable Tleilaxu_Ghola.

Monty technically does as well, in a sense, since he pioneered the temporal attacks that make Monty important, and offered the technology that brings him online.

tyckspoon
2010-02-20, 01:51 AM
This is incorrect. Both the save point and the sandwich belong to the inimitable Tleilaxu_Ghola.

Monty technically does as well, in a sense, since he pioneered the temporal attacks that make Monty important, and offered the technology that brings him online.

*facepalm* Right. I'll have to apologize to them if I should ever actually encounter them.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-20, 02:36 AM
I just like how Warlock and Pixie fit together. :smallsmile:
I'm not all that familiar with Warlock, but pixie Rogue is just great. Pretty much everything that four less levels of Rogue costs you Pixie either boosts back up or makes up for in some way. Lower skill ranks and BAB? High ability scores. Lower hit points and Fort saves? Flight, invisibility, Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance. Not as many Sneak Attack dice? Greater invisibility at will.

faceroll
2010-02-20, 04:44 AM
I just like how Warlock and Pixie fit together. :smallsmile:

That explains how they he got his fey pact.... :smalleek:


I've always like Kurald Galain's Omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177) for sheer ridiculousness of powah. 9th level slots in arcane, divine, and psionics, plus decent ability in other routes like binding, incarnum, and UMD? Pretty classy. :smallbiggrin:

I find that to be the opposite of an elegant build. But YMMV.

Gralamin
2010-02-20, 05:08 AM
All of LordofProcrastination's Dirty Tricks are like that (the Save Point and the psionic sandwich are also his work). Well worth looking up if you can find a good archive of them; the original work was destroyed in one of Wizard/Gleemax's multiple meltdowns.

I've found a copy Here (http://69.8.198.229/wotc_archive/index.php/t-737126).

In fact, If anyone wants to do a lot of 3.5 CO saving, Look at this (http://69.8.198.229/showthread.php?t=482636)

Edit: a Whois if the IP indicates it is owned by Wizards.com - Some secondary archive perhaps?

BobVosh
2010-02-20, 05:11 AM
Paladin/Dusk Blade/Mystic Theurge. It is admirably optimized to be one of the worst class combos possible. However it is a beautifully terrible build.

Scout/Fighter/Dervish is great.

Also the Beguiler/wizard into Ultimate Magus + Practiced Spellcaster works wonders.

faceroll
2010-02-20, 07:19 AM
Yeah, I think the Beguiler/Wizard/UM build IS really neat. It all fits together so well.

I think Beguiler's my favorite class.

BenTheJester
2010-02-20, 09:58 AM
Paladin/Dusk Blade/Mystic Theurge. It is admirably optimized to be one of the worst class combos possible. However it is a beautifully terrible build.

The MAD! IT BURNS!

Forrestfire
2010-02-20, 10:24 AM
I like this build that I figured out while reading Libris Mortis:

Bard 1/Cleric 2/Master of Shrouds X

I like how it's not really overly optimized, but will take out most things with the undead summoned because it's meant to be at a higher level. Also, bard for skill points and music.

Blas_de_Lezo
2010-02-20, 11:02 AM
One I build myself:

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Fighter 4/Dervish10

Or any combination or Rogue/Swasbuckler/going into dervish as soon as possible

SurlySeraph
2010-02-20, 02:36 PM
The King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866038/The_king_of_smack.) is quite elegant. It's powerful, it's fairly straightforward, and it doesn't need any outside help.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-20, 02:57 PM
The King of Smack (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866038/The_king_of_smack.) is quite elegant. It's powerful, it's fairly straightforward, and it doesn't need any outside help.

+1 to king of smack.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-20, 03:20 PM
When carried to its logical extremes? Practically nothing.


Uberchaging barbarian is about as elegant as it gets IMO.Not at the extremes. See my centaur charger in my build compendium. Much higher damage than any charger I have ever seen. Not elegant, though it does have some king-of-smack elements

A lot of T_G's stuff is awesome. It really pushes some boundaries. I don't find it elegant, but it doesn't have to be.

LOPs stuff was tenuous. I think my 999 does a better job of BM in both optimization and elegance, but he gets all the cred because he was the 1st.

Honestly, I'd say my newest creation: a 99HD dragon mount familiar companion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142554). Every level is optimal. It uses early entry tricks in a very straight-forward manner. Its results are powerful and follows quite nicely. This is for the maximal optimization tier however.

If not that level of optimization, the every TOB build looked pretty.

JaronK
2010-02-20, 05:36 PM
I actually really like the build Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1. Every part of it fits together absolutely perfectly and the result is awesome.

JaronK

Akal Saris
2010-02-20, 10:00 PM
Yep, good build JaronK. Does take a bit of adaptation for archivist though.

And Forrestfire, you're a man after my own heart. My own favorite master of shrouds build is actually Cloistered Cleric 2/Warlock 1/Master of Shrouds 1+ though :P

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-21, 01:08 AM
+1 to king of smack.

+1, except to the GOD of smack, the king of smack's big brother. Punch the ground for OVER 9000 damage.:smallbiggrin: (literally)

JaronK
2010-02-21, 01:33 AM
Yep, good build JaronK. Does take a bit of adaptation for archivist though.

It does, but the divine adaptation is listed in the Anima Mage entry, so that works. I just love the way those classes all fit together seamlessly... the fluff all fits (Archivists are lore keepers who seek hidden knowledge of magic and draw power from it, Binders seek hidden knowledge of forbidden ancient secrets and draw power from that, Anima Mage and Tenebrous Apostate blend the two, and Tainted Sorcerer uses forbidden magical power to increase their already potent abilities), the classes slot together like puzzle pieces (Tainted Sorcerer drains constitution and hitpoints, binding gives both back in abundance, Anima Mage and Tenebrous Apostate naturally flow off Binder and Archivist), and the end result is incredible (endless free metamagic, nearly all spells available).

JaronK

Lemmingboy
2010-02-25, 05:05 AM
Ranger 5 Fighter 2 Dread Commando 5 for level 12 total.

-Initiative bonus of +15-18 if you power your dex up. Used it with a Wood Elf (for the Ranger favoured class).

-Took Improved Weapon Familiarity (all racial exotic weapons are martial (I think)). Free spot and listens each round with Improved Reconnoitre (spelling?), meaning unlike others you can actually act on what you see without the need for two-man teams.

-Any party members nearby get +5 on their initiative rolls too. (Animal companions).

-Will admit to not being close to a perfect build due to not using some of the Dread Commando's abilities, in particular the requisite feats- stayed at range too much.

I designed this build for some PVP's a friend and I were doing- he always played magic with invisibility and I wanted to counter it in a mundane fashion.

Lemmingboy
2010-02-25, 05:10 AM
Plus, has anyone done that Frenzied Bezerker thing with Supreme power attack, Jump attack and a two hand weapon? Not sure if it's common or not- don't play them due to the fact that you can't doing a damn thing of your own volition.

TheMinxTail
2010-02-25, 10:09 AM
Hmm... haven't been at this thing for long, but I did make somehting myself with a dozen or so compilation .pdf's. Basically, it was a wizard who could, by fifth level, spontaneously cast any spell he knew. By twentieth, he could cast eleventh or TWELTH level magic by totally breaking features which lowered level increases of metamagic for Heighten Spell and others, use spell slots as opposed to increases for metamagic application (like a Battle Mage, see Battle Magic by MGP), a complete mastery of counterspelling by automatically putting in little action to cause opponent's spells to backfire and of course a fair selection of boosting metamagic for heavy hitters (disintigrate, fireball, etc.) - jsut something I worked on as a weekly project before I had even read Battle Magic. If I were a player I probably wouldn't allow something like that in my campaign world - if your LV20 Wizard can best a LV30 in single combat, you may have gone a bit to far.

Bassetking
2010-02-26, 12:47 AM
No love for my 1d2 Crusader?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-26, 05:48 AM
No love for my 1d2 Crusader?Though my post got ignored, I don't ignore other's. :smallsmile: I remember your build, just not well enough to consider its elegance. The WotC link is borked like everything else over there. Linky?

Heliomance
2010-02-26, 06:34 AM
Shameless self-plug (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3692.0)

Last Laugh
2010-02-26, 08:26 AM
I know that Inspiration bards have been mentioned, but I really like them
Dashing dogood.
Bard 8//dread pirate 7//xx
vest of legends and MW lute give you +3 inspire competence, +2 from dread pirate, +1(inspiration boost SpC.) and words of creation for +12 inspire courage.
And you even have 5 levels to mess around with. warchanter/seeker of the song gives you two songs at once.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-26, 11:40 AM
the chrono leggionary is awesome and I like the idea ver much plus it fits with the theme of the nomad and the ranger to .