PDA

View Full Version : 3.5, Bards from paragon upwards?



Coy
2010-02-19, 06:51 AM
While they may not be the most popular of class options, bards have a je ne sais quoi about them.

A fellow player of mine who has been playing a bard up till now (level 7). I was wondering if people could give me suggestions in terms of finding a 'route' that will help her find the role she wants to take in these more exciting levels to come.

But since i don't have alot of exp. with bards, i was wondering if anyone could contribute.

But more specifically, what prestige classes or character selections out there that allow for certain roles? (for example, sublime chord for a more spell power oriented bard, but i'm looking for other PrC's that could boost singing, combat, etc.)

Thanks in advance.

FirebirdFlying
2010-02-19, 07:22 AM
A few of the obviously bard-themed ones I could find (prolly ninja'ed):

Seeker of the Song, also from Complete Arcana, dumps spellcasting and the reflex save for more music abilities. Doesn't advance bardic music, I think, except for daily uses. Enterable after level 10.

Sublime Chord you know.

Virtuosos lose a caster level, BAB, and Ref for their virtuoso performances - a few other musical effects drawn from a different pool than bardic music. As far as I can tell, and depending on context, the performances don't seem that great for when you get them. Advances daily uses of bardic music as well as inspire courage. Enterable after level 7.

There's Troubadour of Stars from BoED, losing five caster levels and going to d6 hit dice for at will detect evil, a few extra music abilities, and the native outsider type at 10th level. Eh. Enterable after level 10 if you have the Cha to get a bonus 4th level spell.

Stormsinger from Frostburn, loses a couple skill points, BAB, hit dice for her Stormsongs - basically gust of wind, lightning bolt, control winds, control weather, storm of vengeance - and resistance to electricity. Advances daily uses of bardic music. Enterable after level 5.

Dragonsong Lyrist from Draconomicon, loses a couple skill points, hit points, and three caster levels (out of five) for song of strength, compulsion, flight, fear and healing. These do basically what it says on the box. Doesn't advance bardic music, either.

EDIT: There's also some homebrew on this site, if you're interested. And don't forget feats - dragonfire stuff is fun, and some people like Snowflake Wardance.

Optimystik
2010-02-19, 07:26 AM
If it's singing you want to boost, Virtuoso is your best bet.

A DFI bard can become a melee powerhouse.

If you go with Sublime Chord, consider adding on a more fun and flavorful PrC like Dracolexi - SC doesn't get a whole lot of love besides the spells.

Finally, the Divine Bard in the SRD is a nice option you can look into, and meshes with Evangelist like a glove. (That's more a roleplay build than a power one thoughl)

Tyger
2010-02-19, 07:30 AM
In a lot of cases, its not even about the PrC you chose, but rather about the build and gear you use. You want to be a melee powerhouse bard? Take the Snowflake Wardace feat to add your CHA to hit rolls. Throw in a pair of Slippers of Battledancing, and get your weapon(s) to be Crystal Echoblades. Now you are adding CHA to hit twice, your CHA to damage, as well as 1/2 your bard level to damage.

You want to buff the tar out of your allies for combat? Go with Dragonfire Inspiration to turn your Inspire Courage bonus into fire damage dice instead. Add in Song of the Heart feat, a Badge of Valour from the MiC, the Inspirational Boost spell and a Masterwork Mandolin, and your "jukebox" just added, at the 7th level you are sitting at, 5d6 fire damage to every attack you or your allies make.

Spells? You want spells, we got them for you. Now this route does usually require a PrC, and you've already named it, the Sublime Chord.

You might want to take a look at The Bard's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870498/The_Bards_Handbook) over on the Wizards forum for some great tips. There are other comparable ones out there as well.

This one is about optimizing your Inspire Courage (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869994/Bard_Inspire_Courage_Optimization) and there are many more just like it.

If the party sees your friend's bard only as a "jukebox" they may be missing out on some great opportunities to show them just how wrong they are. True, the bard doesn't have the flash of the Wizard or the Cleric, and isn't as individually powerful as any of the Tier One classes. But a bard can take 10 Commoners and turn them into a force for destruction - with his voice. That's not too shabby. Imagine what it can do with a party of semi-competent adventurers.

I am playing my first ever bard in a new 3.5 campaign, and I will never look back. My character has singlehandedly taken challenges that were supposed to be overwhelming, and turned them into cakewalks. And I just got Suggestion, so its about to get even better! :smallbiggrin:

Mark Hall said it better than I can, so here's his quote in a thread I started long, long ago about the Bard...


Those who are jealous of a bard's awesome quotient frequently dismiss them as "signing". Bards need not sing.

Bards can dance... and with Tumble and Improved Unarmed Strike, they are practicing Capoeria.

Bards can use the drums... and light maces + percussion skill + two-weapon fighting is a nasty-fun combination.

Bards can orate. Don't believe that's effective? Listen to the St. Crispin's Day speech (especially with a Ghost-sound provided orchestra rising the background) and don't get stirred.

Bards can do comedy. A bard who tells puns, inspiring his allies to hit people harder.

Bards can chant, and that's a freaky one. A bunch of dwarves, lead by their bard, each chanting in unison. "I wanna be a dwarven fighter/smashing orcs and other blighters."

Bards can use stringed instruments. Bards with high enough ranks in Fiddle automatically have a golden fiddle.1

More importantly, though, bards tell stories. Bards tell the stories of our adventures, they tell stories about their unending fidelity, and they tell stories about your fighters hygeine that have to be smelled to believe. What do beguilers do? It's right in the name: they lie. Beguilers lie like dogs, and cannot be trusted. They use the fact that Wizards, bereft of any remaining awesome (having spent it ALL on bards), were forced to give beguilers mechanical crutches to get around the fact that they lie and they smell funny. And carry diseases.

It is well known that bards are all fantastically endowed paragons of their gender, while beguilers are lying, disease-ridden deviates... and not even the fun kind of deviates. The kind of deviates that even make Blackguards go "That dude has something seriously wrong with him." And I'm not talking pansy blackguards. I'm talking the kind of blackguards who were paladins until they tasted their first baby and said "Yum. I think I'll eat more of these."

So play a bard. Because bards are awesome. And beguilers cheat at cards. ALL THE TIME.



1Golden fiddle not included. Offer void in certain Crystal Spheres. Consult your local overdeity for details.

KitTheOdd
2010-02-19, 10:06 AM
For added melee power look at the Warblade or Crusader. ToB classes are very dippable and Song of the White Raven allows you to start Inspire Courage as a swift rather than a standard action and also allows Crusader and Warblade levels stack with Bard for IC bonus.

I've got a Bard 4/Warblade 6/Jade Phoenix Mage 4 right now that is just tons of fun to play. We wades into battle chanting fight songs and then rips stuff up with his manuevers. He's not super optimized (JPM works better with Crusader or Swordsage), but tons of fun. And a Burning Blade enhanced full attack, especially with 2 crits, will ruin most peoples' day.

9mm
2010-02-19, 10:22 AM
War Chanter from complete warrior is also nice, you lose casting, but gain alot of very useful songs.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-19, 10:29 AM
If you want a martial bard, Song of the White Raven lets you stack your Crusader/Warblade levels with bard for determining your Inspire Courage ability IIRC. Paired with snowflake wardance, Inspire Courage optimization, and Dragonfire inspiration, it can make for a decent TWF Bard.

Pandaren
2010-02-19, 01:47 PM
Take evangelist class.

8 level = 11 ranks in Diplomacy, +3 with skill bonus feat, and +2 with negotiator feat, and if you put 5 ranks in bluff another +2 bonus, 5 ranks in sense motive for +2 synergy, and 5 ranks in knowledge nobility for another +2 synergy.

So, 2 feat slots and 26 skill points for a
Diplomacy = 22+ CHA

By the time you hit 5th level in this class

15 ranks + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + CHA
So- 26+CHA

And with the Fast Talk ability, only taking a full round action at -5 penalty. And with the Skill Mastery ability, take an automatic ten this means.

31+CHA Automatically. So Hostile automatically indifferent, and indifferent automatically helpful. Using magic items to increase bonus will also help. With say, an 18 CHA, this is Hostile automatically friendly, and anything better than hostile automatically helpful.

The convert the unfaithful ability is also handy. At 12 level, DC is 22+Cha, and it keeps going up no matter what class you take.

NEO|Phyte
2010-02-19, 01:52 PM
War Chanter from complete warrior is also nice, you lose casting, but gain alot of very useful songs.
Inspire Legion is boss, and War Chanter is even nice enough to throw in the ability to run two songs at once.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-19, 05:33 PM
Take evangelist class.

8 level = 11 ranks in Diplomacy, +3 with skill bonus feat, and +2 with negotiator feat, and if you put 5 ranks in bluff another +2 bonus, 5 ranks in sense motive for +2 synergy, and 5 ranks in knowledge nobility for another +2 synergy.

So, 2 feat slots and 26 skill points for a
Diplomacy = 22+ CHA

By the time you hit 5th level in this class

15 ranks + 3 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + CHA
So- 26+CHA

And with the Fast Talk ability, only taking a full round action at -5 penalty. And with the Skill Mastery ability, take an automatic ten this means.

31+CHA Automatically. So Hostile automatically indifferent, and indifferent automatically helpful. Using magic items to increase bonus will also help. With say, an 18 CHA, this is Hostile automatically friendly, and anything better than hostile automatically helpful.

The convert the unfaithful ability is also handy. At 12 level, DC is 22+Cha, and it keeps going up no matter what class you take.

You make a pumped-up diplomancer earlier than that IIRC. Fred. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20571349/Suggestions_on_an_Evil_Diplomancer&post_num=5#359813065)

Pluto
2010-02-19, 05:56 PM
Bards are great!

Straight Bard can be a lot of fun. It becomes very useful on its own with a Crystal Echoblade (MIC) and the PHB2's Bardic Knack variant (especially with the Jack of All Trades feat).
(To those who say it doesn't work by RAW, JoAT doesn't do anything by RAW. The intents behind both abilities seem clear and should synergize.)

But on top of the PrC's that have already been mentioned, there are a couple other fun ones:

Lyric Thaumaturge from Complete Mage progresses most of the Bard's abilities and grants a smattering of Wizard spells. It's kind of Like Sublime Chord, but less so.

Dirgesinger from Libris Mortis, though it doesn't progress spellcasting (meaning it's out, as far as CO is concerned), gives some very fun Necromancy songs related to debuffing and raising the undead (who get to keep the abilities they had while they were alive!)

I'm especially partial to Stormsinger (Frost) and Virtuoso (CAd).
Minmaxing tends to favor Sublime Chords, Bard/Clerics of Milil, Bard/Warblades and Bard/Crusaders.



Dragonsong Lyrist from Draconomicon, loses a couple skill points, hit points, and three caster levels (out of five) for song of strength, compulsion, flight, fear and healing. These do basically what it says on the box. Doesn't advance bardic music, either.
I was so happy until I remembered that class exists.
(Seriously--Lost CL, lost skills, lost BM progression, songs that replicate spells and a 20% failure chance on its music? :smallyuk:)

thorgrim29
2010-02-19, 08:12 PM
For a good bard, you might want to use nymph kissed, and have your first level be courtier (+4 to any cha check other then those used for combat)

Kantolin
2010-02-20, 03:19 AM
Another advantage to the pure bard is the improvisation spell, which becomes surprisingly potent as your bard levels continue.

And another neat feature of the warchanter (just to echo that it's cool for a melee bard)... you can take an army, and make the entire army fight as well as your party's 15th level fighter (plus inspire courage on top of that!)

Go grab an army of commoners, and have them enjoy their iterative attacks.

Plus, if you're fighting alongside something like a dragon... now everyone fights like a dragon...

I love warchanter. ^_^