Why isn't the Force Missile Mage full spellcasting?

[Jergmo]

Alright, so the original Force Missile Mage from Dragon Magazine doesn't give a spellcasting increase for the first level. But...why? :smallconfused:

Let's compare the Force Missile Mage with, say...Loremaster for the first five levels.

At first level, the FMM gets +1 magic missile and Magic Missile is automatically Stilled.
At second level, they can apply any energy type to their magic missile they choose and can cast Shield once per day as an immediate action.
At third level, magic missile gets a +2 to overcome spell resistance and Magic Missile can penetrate Shield with a caster level check.
At fourth level, they get to reflect magic missiles back at people. It's...pretty darn situational. It's a single spell.
At fifth level, they get another bonus missile to magic missile.

The Loremaster, meanwhile, receives...
Their first secret at 1st level, which can be used to gain a bonus feat. Any feat under the sun that they can qualify for.
The equivalent of bardic lore at second level. Eh.
Their second secret at 3rd level - forget Shield as an immediate action once per day, how about a second level spell slot?
A bonus language at 4th level. Eh.
And a third secret at fifth level - one of the +2 to a specific save ones would be nice.

Really...how is what the FMM gets so much more powerful compared to various splatbook PRCs and even the typical Core PRC that it needs to lose a spellcaster level? Is the FMM better than the Loremaster? Maybe, but their stuff is all situational.

[imperialspectre]

Blaster mages are given very few good PrC options, because for some reason WotC authors didn't feel that the weakest (but most traditional) kind of wizard build needed any help.

If you want to optimize Magic Missile, take Incantatrix and Halruaan Elder, put Fell Drain on the missiles, and stack every other metamagic you can put together.

[hamishspence]

Maybe the designers were being cautious to avoid cheese- perhaps overcautious.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Alright, so the original Force Missile Mage from Dragon Magazine doesn't give a spellcasting increase for the first level. But...why? :smallconfused:

Let's compare the Force Missile Mage with, say...Loremaster for the first five levels.

At first level, the FMM gets +1 magic missile and Magic Missile is automatically Stilled.
At second level, they can apply any energy type to their magic missile they choose and can cast Shield once per day as an immediate action.
At third level, magic missile gets a +2 to overcome spell resistance and Magic Missile can penetrate Shield with a caster level check.
At fourth level, they get to reflect magic missiles back at people. It's...pretty darn situational. It's a single spell.
At fifth level, they get another bonus missile to magic missile.

The Loremaster, meanwhile, receives...
Their first secret at 1st level, which can be used to gain a bonus feat. Any feat under the sun that they can qualify for.
The equivalent of bardic lore at second level. Eh.
Their second secret at 3rd level - forget Shield as an immediate action once per day, how about a second level spell slot?
A bonus language at 4th level. Eh.
And a third secret at fifth level - one of the +2 to a specific save ones would be nice.

Really...how is what the FMM gets so much more powerful compared to various splatbook PRCs and even the typical Core PRC that it needs to lose a spellcaster level? Is the FMM better than the Loremaster? Maybe, but their stuff is all situational.


becauses its super easy to exploit there situational stuff...

For example that +1 missles is another target for black lore of moil and born of three thunders.

As well as the ability to by pass shield alone is worth the lost spell caster level. It basicaly gets around the #1 way to stop magic missles.

[Jergmo]

Fair enough, but I dunno...it merely seems that compared to all the other stuff out there, it's not that bad.

[Lin Bayaseda]

The FMM is a one-trick pony - he does one thing, and he does it really well. Usually designers tend to underpower those things, under the reasonable assumption that a game dominated by one-trick-ponies isn't interesting. I personally don't think it's powerful enough to merit a missing casting level, but hey, can't be too careful. What if everyone actually wanted to play this class?

[faceroll]

Fair enough, but I dunno...it merely seems that compared to all the other stuff out there, it's not that bad.

IMO, all caster PrCs should lose at least one CL if they give you anything better than feats. The ones that don't are bad design. Incantatrix should be 1/2 or 3/5 casting, for instance.

[awa]

I agree its just one more way they made wizards and clerics overpowered. Most other types of character actually have to give something up when they take a prestige class but sorcerers and clerics and to a lesser extent wizards give up almost nothing when they take a full casting prestige class.

[ericgrau]

What are the pre-reqs for force missile mage? Loremaster is fairly pre-req heavy. So much that sorcerers really do give up a great deal to be one. And those force missile mage abilities are quite powerful at what they do. I mean, if you can't use them at all then why take the class even if it did give full spellcasting?

As for the whole casting PrCs thing, really PrCs in general tend to be more powerful than base classes. They all have prereqs that do add a cost even for casters, but except for Loremaster the benefits usually outweigh the costs.

[DragoonWraith]

IMO, all caster PrCs should lose at least one CL if they give you anything better than feats. The ones that don't are bad design. Incantatrix should be 1/2 or 3/5 casting, for instance.
What, on earth, do you think is worth 5 caster levels? There is no such thing. There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period. In fact, I'm not sure there's any 8/10 spellcasting progression PrC worth taking. There's only a handful of spellcasting PrCs that lose even one level that are worth taking.

Yes, full-casters are overpowered. Utilizing PrCs as stealth nerfs is terrible design.

Yes, full-casters often have little to lose. Making them lose everything that they have going for them (which is what spellcasting progression loss is) is still terrible design.

In both cases, in so far as these are problems, the base class needs to be fixed, not the PrCs.

As for not losing something being bad design, in most cases the entry pre-requisites are cost enough, combined with the opportunity cost of what you might be doing with those levels instead.

There are some cases (FMM very much not one of them) where greater costs might be appropriate. In those circumstances, unless the class features are obscene (Incantatrix, Iot7V, Shadowcraft Mage are the only ones coming to mind), even a single spellcaster level lost would be too much, however. In those circumstances, either additional banned schools, or losing spell slots a la Archmage, are much better choices.

So, yeah, I completely disagree with you, faceroll.

[Flickerdart]

Swiftblade is 6/10, and it's worth taking. I don't think there are any others.

[DementedFellow]

What, on earth, do you think is worth 5 caster levels? There is no such thing. There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period. In fact, I'm not sure there's any 8/10 spellcasting progression PrC worth taking. There's only a handful of spellcasting PrCs that lose even one level that are worth taking.


Walker in the Waste springs to mind. The hit to spellcasting progression is softened by the Dry Lich template being added for free. I would rather have 2 lost via this PrC than 4 via the usual lich template being added on. Granted you don't "lose" those levels, you just have to work harder to get to the next level.

[DragoonWraith]

Swiftblade is 6/10, and it's worth taking. I don't think there are any others.
Sorry, you're right; how could I forget the beloved Swiftblade? Though as I was writing it I was thinking to myself "There's probably a gish PrC that's worth it, but meh."

[Gametime]

What, on earth, do you think is worth 5 caster levels? There is no such thing. There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period. In fact, I'm not sure there's any 8/10 spellcasting progression PrC worth taking. There's only a handful of spellcasting PrCs that lose even one level that are worth taking.

Yes, full-casters are overpowered. Utilizing PrCs as stealth nerfs is terrible design.

Yes, full-casters often have little to lose. Making them lose everything that they have going for them (which is what spellcasting progression loss is) is still terrible design.

In both cases, in so far as these are problems, the base class needs to be fixed, not the PrCs.

As for not losing something being bad design, in most cases the entry pre-requisites are cost enough, combined with the opportunity cost of what you might be doing with those levels instead.

There are some cases (FMM very much not one of them) where greater costs might be appropriate. In those circumstances, unless the class features are obscene (Incantatrix, Iot7V, Shadowcraft Mage are the only ones coming to mind), even a single spellcaster level lost would be too much, however. In those circumstances, either additional banned schools, or losing spell slots a la Archmage, are much better choices.

So, yeah, I completely disagree with you, faceroll.

It's true that almost no abilities are worth losing even one spellcasting level for, from the perspective of "being as powerful as possible." On the other hand, there's a decent list of prestige classes that aren't as powerful as a pure, optimized caster would have been, but end up doing at least one thing well enough to justify it.

Malconvoker is the best example I can think of. You lose a caster level to specialize in a line of spells that start off decent and get progressively less impressive. A Malconvoker doesn't get any abilities that really make up for losing that one level - but a free Twin Spell, unlimited times per day, is pretty potent even when applied to the weak Summon Monster chain.

In other words, Malconvokers give something up, but they get something back. They're also really cool. :smalltongue:

More caster prestige classes should be like that, I think - still clearly worth taking, if they do what you want to do, but offering a power trade-off instead of a power jump.

[DragoonWraith]

Malconvoker is one of the very few PrCs worth losing a single casting level. They're one of my favorite PrCs ever. It might not be worth it strictly speaking but it's worth considering. They're fun and you don't feel like you're nerfing yourself for the privilege of doing something other than the boring Clr or Wiz 20.

But most? Yeah, they might be cool, but it's just not fun to be sitting there looking at the class, and realizing that "taking this is going to make me weaker than just not bothering."

[absolmorph]

What are the pre-reqs for force missile mage? Loremaster is fairly pre-req heavy. So much that sorcerers really do give up a great deal to be one. And those force missile mage abilities are quite powerful at what they do. I mean, if you can't use them at all then why take the class even if it did give full spellcasting?
If you can qualify for the prerequisites, you get class features.
As opposed to regular sorcerer levels, which give you... familiar progression.


It's true that almost no abilities are worth losing even one spellcasting level for, from the perspective of "being as powerful as possible." On the other hand, there's a decent list of prestige classes that aren't as powerful as a pure, optimized caster would have been, but end up doing at least one thing well enough to justify it.

Malconvoker is the best example I can think of. You lose a caster level to specialize in a line of spells that start off decent and get progressively less impressive. A Malconvoker doesn't get any abilities that really make up for losing that one level - but a free Twin Spell, unlimited times per day, is pretty potent even when applied to the weak Summon Monster chain.

In other words, Malconvokers give something up, but they get something back. They're also really cool. :smalltongue:

More caster prestige classes should be like that, I think - still clearly worth taking, if they do what you want to do, but offering a power trade-off instead of a power jump.
I see nothing unimpressive about being able to summon back-up casters or some meatshields whenever you want.
Summon a Fiendish Rhinoceros. Or fiendish Megaraptor. Or a Fiendish Dire Tiger. Or, heck, an Elder elemental.
How on earth are any of those unimpressive, AT ALL, especially given that any Evil creature summoned by a Malconvoker gets bonuses (and there are more of 'em, IIRC).

[Pluto]

There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period.If Incantatrix were 1/2 caster level, I think that would change.

[Eldariel]

I see nothing unimpressive about being able to summon back-up casters or some meatshields whenever you want.
Summon a Fiendish Rhinoceros. Or fiendish Megaraptor. Or a Fiendish Dire Tiger. Or, heck, an Elder elemental.
How on earth are any of those unimpressive, AT ALL, especially given that any Evil creature summoned by a Malconvoker gets bonuses (and there are more of 'em, IIRC).

Compared to CR appropriate encounters, standard Summons tend to be numerically too weak to be worth spending a round summoning. Now, pumped a bit and Malconvokered, they can become much more worthwhile especially as support casters (since you get two and all).

[DragoonWraith]

If Incantatrix were 1/2 caster level, I think that would change.
No, it wouldn't. Even metamagic shenanigans are not worth losing not only 9th but 8th level spells as well. Not in a million years, not without incredible cheese.

[Starbuck_II]

No, it wouldn't. Even metamagic shenanigans are not worth losing not only 9th but 8th level spells as well. Not in a million years, not without incredible cheese.

I thought Incantrix was Vulcan for cheese...

[Roderick_BR]

IMO, all caster PrCs should lose at least one CL if they give you anything better than feats. The ones that don't are bad design. Incantatrix should be 1/2 or 3/5 casting, for instance.
Fully agreed. Lose virtually nothing to gain tons of new abilities? Most PrCs are just messed up.

[DragoonWraith]

I thought Incantrix was Vulcan for cheese...
Eh, to me cheesy means doing some convoluted combination of things that was never intended. With Incantatrix, it's literally just how the class is. No combination beyond the obvious (Metamagic feats) is necessary.

[satorian]

Dracolexi are arguably worth it. As is dragon prophet.

[DragoonWraith]

Dracolexi are pretty cool. But worth a spellcasting level to a class that's already effectively lost one (by virtue of being spontaneous)? That I'm not so sure about.

But what's Dragon Prophet? Not familiar with that one.

[Ormagoden]

ummmmm war weaver

[ericgrau]

If you can qualify for the prerequisites, you get class features.
As opposed to regular sorcerer levels, which give you... familiar progression.

You pay way too much to get into loremaster as a sorcerer. A straight sorcerer really is better. Which is why I asked what the pre-reqs for force missile mage are. If they're substantial then ok, a caster level is a bit much to pay. If they're trivial, then you really gotta pay something. Maybe some other PrCs are way imbalanced and way better than not PrCing, but that's no justification.

[KillianHawkeye]

Force Missile Mage only requires 9 ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft (skills that spellcasters usually max anyway), Combat Casting (a single suboptimal feat), and the ability to cast magic missile at least once per day. The cost for its class features is the single level of lost spellcasting advancement.

It's pretty much a no-brainer for any mage whose favorite spell is magic missile.

[DragoonWraith]

ummmmm war weaver
War Weaver is another on my short list.


You pay way too much to get into loremaster as a sorcerer. A straight sorcerer really is better. Which is why I asked what the pre-reqs for force missile mage are. If they're substantial then ok, a caster level is a bit much to pay. If they're trivial, then you really gotta pay something. Maybe some other PrCs are way imbalanced and way better than not PrCing, but that's no justification.
This is exactly what I mean.


Force Missile Mage only requires 9 ranks in Concentration and Spellcraft (skills that spellcasters usually max anyway), Combat Casting (a single suboptimal feat), and the ability to cast magic missile at least once per day. The cost for its class features is the single level of lost spellcasting advancement.

It's pretty much a no-brainer for any mage whose favorite spell is magic missile.
Yes, but there's no reason to favor Magic Missile like that. It's a 1st level spell. One spellcaster level is worth massively more than the features of that class. If the class lost no spellcasting, it would cost a feat and five levels that might be in another class, to pump up Magic Missile. This is a perfectly reasonable trade. Add another feat if you really feel like it's necessary.

[ericgrau]

Level 14: Still empowered maximized magic missile, quickened empowered magic missile. 84 irresistable damage in a single round while grappled or otherwise impeded. It never misses, never gets saved against, hits incorporeal, hits just about anything, destroys mirror image spells, laughs at displacement, laughs at blur. Your 16 con enemy wizard on the other side of the battlefield with 2 layers of cover only has 77 HP. You win initiative, he dies, no save. And not just in contrived duels, but in crowded battlefields where he's hiding in the back.

You could get an empowered maximized scorching ray + quickened scorching ray does 135 fire damage that's very resistable (6 rays). And as much praise as touch attacks get you only have a 50-60% chance of hitting someone with cover and a reasonable touch AC. If they're in melee with an ally that's another -4. Out in the open your chances are better, but magic missile doesn't need that. You can aim for the guy in back. Or you could get 95 damage from a similar pair of fireballs with a save. And both are still fire.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, except you're talking about direct damage on a wizard. *shrug* I'll admit, that's better than I remembered FMM being. I was mostly responding to the "all PrCs should lose spellcasting levels!" thing. That's just not true, many do not earn their keep that way.

If there was greater granularity, I'd agree. But 1 level is just too much. The way Tome of Battle handles this is excellent. The way Psionics handles it is, at least, better than spellcasting, thanks to Practiced Manifester. But with spellcasting, losing a spellcasting level is only an option if you're talking about very powerful class features.

[ericgrau]

Magic missile isn't entirely a direct damage spell. It'd be pretty lousy if it was just by raw output. It really is a hybrid of direct damage and utility. On an open field with no obstacles between you and an immobile target, there are better damage spells. Probably better spells in general. But magic missile just plain hits regardless of circumstances. Against one target or spread out how you like. Other direct damage may be resisted, blocked, miss chanced, tanked, saved, etc., which is part of what makes it not as good as it might be. But with magic missile you pick your target(s), and it takes damage.

Mind you, the example I gave included a lost caster level. It's probably the peak of the build, when it's hard to metamagic magic missile any more without splatbooks, but the damage scales pretty well up on all levels until that point. And until level 20 if you add some splatbook metamagic. In round 1 of every combat, you take out the well hidden, fragile but dangerous strategic target. He's just dead.

[Runestar]

I think the reason is because we have all been spoiled by prcs which grant a ton of class features in addition to full spellcasting. Forgotten realms is arguably the biggest offender, though you can argue that is in line with its established lore of overpowered wizards trying to take over the world every other day. :smallconfused:

If you notice the trend of prcs in the XPH, no psionic prc ever grants full manifesting progression. And for good reason too. They would essentially invalidate the psion past lv5.

Which makes sense. The core wizard effectively has full spellcasting, and the closest thing it has to a class feature are bonus feats every 5th lv. This should be the baseline against which all other spellcasting prcs are gauged.

Common sense dictates that should a prc grant substantially more than that, some sort of penalty needs to be introduced to balance that out, typically in the form of delayed spellcasting progression (possibly 9/10 for the moderate prcs like master specialist, and maybe 8/10 for the more powerful ones, such as incantatrix).

Loremaster is possibly as balanced a full-spellcasting prc as it gets, IMO.

[Glimbur]

I like the Archmage model of paying for extra power by losing spell slots. It's not as bad as losing caster level, but it does sting. Requiring bad feats is also a method of making people pay for power, but I don't like it as much.

[Starbuck_II]

Level 14: Still empowered maximized magic missile, quickened empowered magic missile. 84 irresistable damage in a single round while grappled or otherwise impeded. It never misses, never gets saved against, hits incorporeal, hits just about anything, destroys mirror image spells, laughs at displacement, laughs at blur. Your 16 con enemy wizard on the other side of the battlefield with 2 layers of cover only has 77 HP. You win initiative, he dies, no save. And not just in contrived duels, but in crowded battlefields where he's hiding in the back.


Shadowcasters get improved Displacement: displacement but untargetable by spells. Plus, the necklace of Shield blocks MM damage (a cheap magic item)

[ericgrau]

Shadowcasters are an awfully specific counter. The brooch of shielding is an expendable item. It's pricey at the low levels where you actually expect magic missiles and later it takes up a precious magic item slot. Also unlikely to be seen. If you mean the spell shield then the force missile mage can overcome that at level 3. Of course there's a counter for everything, but this is something not often prepared for and with very little available to counter it.

[Gorbash]

I like the Archmage model of paying for extra power by losing spell slots. It's not as bad as losing caster level, but it does sting. Requiring bad feats is also a method of making people pay for power, but I don't like it as much.

To be fair, most classes require bad feats to qualify. Skill Focus is downright useless, but Spell Focuses aren't. Sure, there are better choices for feats, and it'd be better if you could choose whether to take Spell Focuses in two different schools or Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in one, but combined with your already high Int score, that +1 can sometimes make a tangible difference between succeeding and failing the save. Especially useful for Transmuters, since they tend to rely more on Save-or-X than other wizards.

Frankly, I consider worse waste of feats those three metamagic/item creation that Loremaster requires, but that's just because my style of play that doesn't involve heavy metamagic.

[Starbuck_II]

Frankly, I consider worse waste of feats those three metamagic/item creation that Loremaster requires, but that's just because my style of play that doesn't involve heavy metamagic.

Craft Wonderous is a given. But yeah, you have 2 more needed: Craft Arms/Armor if no one else is enhancing armor could be good.

Quicken is never bad idea.

[ericgrau]

Don't forget scribe scroll counts. And metamagic is pretty nice. Even if you don't want to do damage you can always empower some false lifes, rays of enfeeblements, etc. OTOH, crafting magic items is nice too. The divination spell requirements are what make the class downright brutal for a sorcerer, who can't simply buy a few scrolls and let those spells gather dust in an unused spellbook. The main issue for a wizard is that loremaster requires 4 feats which may be a pain if you want to enter it as early as level 8. At that point a non-human wizard only has 5 feats. The skill focus is a flat feat cost, though you can regain it from one level of loremaster. It would still be a net benefit for a wizard after level 1, except that the benefits given by the class are fairly minor. That's what keeps it a balanced PrC.

[Optimystik]

Shadowcasters are an awfully specific counter. The brooch of shielding is an expendable item. It's pricey at the low levels where you actually expect magic missiles and later it takes up a precious magic item slot. Also unlikely to be seen. If you mean the spell shield then the force missile mage can overcome that at level 3. Of course there's a counter for everything, but this is something not often prepared for and with very little available to counter it.

Here's a much less contrived counter - Ring of Counterspells. The problem with focusing your class around one spell is that people can count on you using it.

[ericgrau]

If they know you. Also single use, though you could stack on a brooch of shielding for a 2nd expended item and yet another precious magic item slot dedicated to defense. But, yeah, if they know you.

[Runestar]

Every strategy has a counter.

If every foe starts turning up equipped with rings of lesser counterspell, I think you have a bigger issue on your hands. :smallamused:


Level 14: Still empowered maximized magic missile, quickened empowered magic missile. 84 irresistable damage in a single round while grappled or otherwise impeded. It never misses, never gets saved against, hits incorporeal, hits just about anything, destroys mirror image spells, laughs at displacement, laughs at blur.

That's it? Foes at that stage typically have way more hp than that, and the damage is still vastly inferior to what a wizard could otherwise be accomplishing with the same resources.

[Mongoose87]

If they know you. Also single use, though you could stack on a brooch of shielding for a 2nd expended item and yet another precious magic item slot dedicated to defense. But, yeah, if they know you.

If you've got enough experience to take a few levels of a PRC, you've probably got a decent amount of notoriety.

[Optimystik]

If they know you.

It's what, a DC 15 Knowledge check to learn about a PrC? 20?


Also works only against the first casting, and there are two castings in round 1.

You can always counterspell the second - and any others, for that matter - the old-fashioned way.


Takes up a ring slot too.

If you're going up against a FMM, why wouldn't you protect yourself against their signature spell?

You don't even need that ring; plenty of others will work, like a Ring of BMP. None of FMM's bonuses actually increase his CL or resistance to being countered (unlike an Argent Savant). He gets a spell penetration-type boost vs. SR, but that's it. So even counterspelling normally will work fine.

[Runestar]

You can always counterspell the second - and any others, for that matter - the old-fashioned way.

When the wizard could be using that standard action to actually do something?

[ericgrau]

That's it? Foes at that stage typically have way more hp than that, and the damage is still vastly inferior to what a wizard could otherwise be accomplishing with the same resources.
But a 14th level wizard has less HP, as do certain otherwise troublesome and hard to affect monsters. That's the main point: you get to pick your target. Let the massive melee damage dealers handle the front line targets.

Fame: In the absence of TV even if you're King Arthur most monsters you meet still won't recognize your face... and aren't wizards.

Btw, found out the class can penetrate a brooch of shielding too with a DC 20 caster level check. So you're stuck with counterspells, which were ninja explained and only cover 1 of the two castings anyway.

Yeah, this is getting a bit contrived again. So, um, how about them better balanced PrC's like the loremaster and the ones that give up a caster level? Any more of those?

[Optimystik]

When the wizard could be using that standard action to actually do something?

Most wizards have familiars.

You could also have the Bard do it - once he's done singing, there's not much else for him to do.

[Radar]

That's it? Foes at that stage typically have way more hp than that, and the damage is still vastly inferior to what a wizard could otherwise be accomplishing with the same resources.
Well, that's without even trying. The main point is, that you ignore many defences (concealment, cover, high touch AC, saves) and affect incorporeal or ethereal creatures, so even if the damage is lower, it is worth it. If you DO try to optimise Magic Missile, then things get a lot more interesting. It's a prime candidate for any debuffing metamagic feats (Fell Drain comes to my mind; having a rod of Fell Weaken might be good too), since it can affect multiple selected targets without an error. After including the obvious Arcane Thesis and some more metamagic damage gets high enough to drop any reasonable target.
The only disadvantage of Magic Missile is SR:Yes.

Also: any wizard can be countered via counterspelling, so it's not the point here.

[Runestar]

Also: any wizard can be countered via counterspelling, so it's not the point here.

It is. My point is that counterspelling is a vastly inferior move to make, and tends to do more harm to the npc wizard than the party wizard being countered.

Said wizard could just as easily ready an action to smack the other wizard with a high-damage spell, forcing him to make a concentration check so difficult he will likely fail. So his spell is not only effectively countered, but he takes damage as well.

In addition, when the wizard readies an action to counterspell, he is not doing anything else. So the rest of the party can just close in and smack the daylights out of him. Plus, if your wizard wises up and takes out a wand to use or does something else, then the enemy wizard has just wasted a standard action achieving squat.

Counterspelling just doesn't work. :smallamused:

[Dhavaer]

Said wizard could just as easily ready an action to smack the other wizard with a high-damage spell, forcing him to make a concentration check so difficult he will likely fail. So his spell is not only effectively countered, but he takes damage as well.

:smallbiggrin:

Brings back happy memories of locking down a lich with a 6th level illusionist.

[Triaxx]

Blasters are more fun. They require strategy and tactics and not just 'spam spell, move to next encounter'.

Besides that, blasters are also party friendly.

SR:Yes doesn't really mean anything, especially when you can simply drop a Quickened, Assay Resistance. Followed by the missiles.

Anything that survives should be weakened enough for melee potent party members to gut it like a fish. Essentially, the only two things the FMM has to worry about, are other FMM's, and Tarrasque's.

The best way to balance out over-powered Prc's, that I've found, is to give the enemy the chance to use them as well. Usually with two Incantrix on the field, everyone else goes off for a smoke while they duke it out.

[faceroll]

What, on earth, do you think is worth 5 caster levels? There is no such thing. There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period. In fact, I'm not sure there's any 8/10 spellcasting progression PrC worth taking. There's only a handful of spellcasting PrCs that lose even one level that are worth taking.

Yes, full-casters are overpowered. Utilizing PrCs as stealth nerfs is terrible design.

Yes, full-casters often have little to lose. Making them lose everything that they have going for them (which is what spellcasting progression loss is) is still terrible design.

In both cases, in so far as these are problems, the base class needs to be fixed, not the PrCs.

As for not losing something being bad design, in most cases the entry pre-requisites are cost enough, combined with the opportunity cost of what you might be doing with those levels instead.

There are some cases (FMM very much not one of them) where greater costs might be appropriate. In those circumstances, unless the class features are obscene (Incantatrix, Iot7V, Shadowcraft Mage are the only ones coming to mind), even a single spellcaster level lost would be too much, however. In those circumstances, either additional banned schools, or losing spell slots a la Archmage, are much better choices.

So, yeah, I completely disagree with you, faceroll.

Incantatrix would still be worth taking if it gave 5/10 casting. The ability to persist 8th level spells is just that good. Being a superiorly invisible ghost that's immune to metal weapons all day long is frakken insane, not to mention the damage output on your low level spell slots. But rather than being a "well duh, you always take this prc", you actually have to consider between it and actual wizard levels.


I was mostly responding to the "all PrCs should lose spellcasting levels!" thing.

No one actually said that.


Here's a much less contrived counter - Ring of Counterspells. The problem with focusing your class around one spell is that people can count on you using it.

It stops one magic missile spell, but since it's twinned, quickened & repeated, it isn't going to stop the other 7 coming your way.

[Eloel]

It stops one magic missile spell, but since it's twinned, quickened & repeated, it isn't going to stop the other 7 coming your way.
A twinned & quickened & repeated Magic Missile is a 9th level spell...

(I mean, you DID take Arcane Thesis while focusing on a single spell, yes?)

[Runestar]

It stops one magic missile spell, but since it's twinned, quickened & repeated, it isn't going to stop the other 7 coming your way.

Aren't they all considered part of the original magic missile spell? IE: you counter one, you counter them all? So no twin+repeat to follow up...

[faceroll]

A twinned & quickened & repeated Magic Missile is a 9th level spell...

(I mean, you DID take Arcane Thesis while focusing on a single spell, yes?)

It's less than that with the appropriate metamagic reducers.


Aren't they all considered part of the original magic missile spell? IE: you counter one, you counter them all? So no twin+repeat to follow up...

Hmm, the repeated part might be, but the twinned and quickened parts aren't.

[Optimystik]

So use Spell Immunity (and GSI) then. They're still SR: Yes, unlike Orbs.

[Greenish]

You could also have the Bard do it - once he's done singing, there's not much else for him to do.If you're really having the bard to Counterspell or other such minor stuff, you're missing much of the bard's potential.

I mean, he shouldn't be interrupted while taking notes of your epic battle, or how else can he compose a great ballad of it later?

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, but there's no reason to favor Magic Missile like that.

I have to disagree with this statement. Magic missile is a classic, iconic spell. It's one of those things that made D&D what it is today. It's stylish and dependable. And because it's a level 1 spell, it's been used repeatedly over the lifetime of many mage characters, like a faithful companion.

Basically I guess what I'm saying is that if a wizard had a pet which was a spell, that spell would most likely be magic missile.

If that isn't a reason to make a Force Missile Mage, I don't know what is.

[magic9mushroom]

What, on earth, do you think is worth 5 caster levels? There is no such thing. There is no 1/2 spellcasting progression PrC that is worth taking, period. In fact, I'm not sure there's any 8/10 spellcasting progression PrC worth taking. There's only a handful of spellcasting PrCs that lose even one level that are worth taking.

If Tainted Scholar lost 2 caster levels and had Tainted Spellcasting as the capstone, I'm sure you'd agree it would still be worth taking. 1/2, it'd still be a reasonable choice.

But yes, barring abilities as stupendously powerful as Tainted Spellcasting or Shadow Illusion, there's very little that's worth a caster level, let alone 2.

EDIT: To all those people who yell about how Incantatrix "doesn't lose anything", it loses a WHOLE SCHOOL. For the same price you could go Focused Specialist and get a ton more spells/day. It's still extraordinarily powerful at what it does, but it does lose versatility.

[Emmerask]

IMO, all caster PrCs should lose at least one CL if they give you anything better than feats. The ones that don't are bad design. Incantatrix should be 1/2 or 3/5 casting, for instance.

I completely agree

[taltamir]

FMM is a sensible PrC, it gives you some neat thematic abilities, it sacrifices progression to do so.
Other PrCs are better because other PrCs are broken. They give you the world and then some and require no sacrifice.
A wizard or a sorcerer should ALWAYS PrC as fast as possible and ever take another level of their core class. If more PrCs were like FMM then there will be legitimate reasons to "choose" whether or not you PrC.


Level 14: Still empowered maximized magic missile, quickened empowered magic missile. 84 irresistable damage in a single round while grappled or otherwise impeded. It never misses, never gets saved against, hits incorporeal, hits just about anything, destroys mirror image spells, laughs at displacement, laughs at blur. Your 16 con enemy wizard on the other side of the battlefield with 2 layers of cover only has 77 HP. You win initiative, he dies, no save. And not just in contrived duels, but in crowded battlefields where he's hiding in the back.

You could get an empowered maximized scorching ray + quickened scorching ray does 135 fire damage that's very resistable (6 rays). And as much praise as touch attacks get you only have a 50-60% chance of hitting someone with cover and a reasonable touch AC. If they're in melee with an ally that's another -4. Out in the open your chances are better, but magic missile doesn't need that. You can aim for the guy in back. Or you could get 95 damage from a similar pair of fireballs with a save. And both are still fire.

a very nice analysis.

[faceroll]

EDIT: To all those people who yell about how Incantatrix "doesn't lose anything", it loses a WHOLE SCHOOL. For the same price you could go Focused Specialist and get a ton more spells/day. It's still extraordinarily powerful at what it does, but it does lose versatility.

Oh no, I lost enchantment or evocation, whatever should I do? It's not like there are other schools that virtually mimic everything those schools do.

Spell slots are a whole lot less important when instead of preparing 2x or 3x a spell to buff yourself multiple times in multiple battles, you cast all your buffs and make them last a very long time. You also do the same thing with the other casters in your party. Persistent wraithstrike is really ugly.

When every optimizer out there wets their pants to take all ten levels in a prestige class that shows up in the cheesiest builds, you can bet your butt that whatever the class loses, it's not enough.

[DragoonWraith]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Incantatrix is balanced. It's clearly not.

But losing a school is supposed to be a lot more meaningful than it actually is. This is because each of the schools is supposed to be invaluable, but several are not (though when you get to your third school, the choice does become much harder). Want to make Incantatrix a lot less appealing without changing the class any? Put (Teleportation) effects in Evocation, along with all of the Orb spells, put the (Healing) spells in Necromancy (or Evocation), put Mage Armor in Abjuration. Eliminate Mind Blank and the anti-compulsion bit of Protection from/Magic Circle against CEGL, and reduce general anti-Mind-Effecting abilities. Force Wizards to specialize without gaining extra spells per day, and in order to gain extra spells per day they have to do Focus Specialist (losing a third school and a spell slot per level per day in order to gain two spell slots per level per day that can only be used for the focused school). Now you're looking at Incantatrix, and you must be losing something you really don't want to lose at this point.

[faceroll]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Incantatrix is balanced. It's clearly not.

But losing a school is supposed to be a lot more meaningful than it actually is. This is because each of the schools is supposed to be invaluable, but several are not (though when you get to your third school, the choice does become much harder). Want to make Incantatrix a lot less appealing without changing the class any? Put (Teleportation) effects in Evocation, along with all of the Orb spells, put the (Healing) spells in Necromancy (or Evocation), put Mage Armor in Abjuration. Eliminate Mind Blank and the anti-compulsion bit of Protection from/Magic Circle against CEGL, and reduce general anti-Mind-Effecting abilities. Force Wizards to specialize without gaining extra spells per day, and in order to gain extra spells per day they have to do Focus Specialist (losing a third school and a spell slot per level per day in order to gain two spell slots per level per day that can only be used for the focused school). Now you're looking at Incantatrix, and you must be losing something you really don't want to lose at this point.

That's the ToS ruleset, and incantatrix is still banned. Free metamagic is just that good, dood.

[DragoonWraith]

I don't think it is the ToS ruleset, actually, because I'm pretty sure they don't force Wizards to specialize without any benefit, which is what I'd said.

But like I said, no one said the Incantatrix was balanced well. People said that Force Missile Mage isn't either, because it gives up more than it should have to. People also pointed out that Incantatrix does give up something. It may not be enough, it might not ever be enough, but it does.

[faceroll]

But like I said, no one said the Incantatrix was balanced well. People said that Force Missile Mage isn't either, because it gives up more than it should have to.

No, FMM gives up exactly what a caster prestige class SHOULD give up.

[deuxhero]

Frankly, I consider worse waste of feats those three metamagic/item creation that Loremaster requires, but that's just because my style of play that doesn't involve heavy metamagic.

What?
Scribe Scroll is free. That is 1.
You get a spell that has to be a metamagic or item creation (with one core exception) at level 5.

That is 2 of the 3 for free! That just leaves blowing one feat for skill focus (though you get it back) and another metamagic/item maker (sudden quicken is great for this one)

[faceroll]

(sudden quicken is great for this one)

But getting all the other sudden metamagic feats are a little meh.

[DragoonWraith]

No, FMM gives up exactly what a caster prestige class SHOULD give up.
I don't honestly remember the exact details of the class features, so I'm not really going to debate you on FMM specifically. Lots of caster PrCs would not be, or are not, worth taking if they lose even a single caster level.

[faceroll]

I don't honestly remember the exact details of the class features, so I'm not really going to debate you on FMM specifically. Lots of caster PrCs would not be, or are not, worth taking if they lose even a single caster level.

Ugh. You don't get it.
Whatever.

[deuxhero]

But getting all the other sudden metamagic feats are a little meh.

It doesn't have to be a sudden (you need a normal one for requirements). Something like say... heighten is reasonable (keep your favorite save or dies).

[DragoonWraith]

Ugh. You don't get it.
Whatever.
Correction: I disagree with you. But since you haven't actually made any argument other than the initial one I responded to, we can't have any sensible debate about it. Instead you just keep saying what you're saying, and I keep saying what I'm saying. I responded to you. Now it's your turn. Losing even a single caster level is worth far more than the class abilities of all but the most powerful PrCs. There are very few PrCs that lose one that are worth it, and very few that don't that wouldn't be wastes of time if they did.

Some PrCs are "freebies" and shouldn't be, but most are pretty well balanced by their prerequisites. In the case of those that aren't, there are alternatives to lost spellcaster levels that are far more balanced in the vast majority of cases.

[SaintRidley]

Just a curiosity, here. Recaster (from Races of Eberron) loses 1 caster level at the beginning as well. Where do we look at it as being "worth it" as compared to FMM?

[Eldariel]

Just a curiosity, here. Recaster (from Races of Eberron) loses 1 caster level at the beginning as well. Where do we look at it as being "worth it" as compared to FMM?

Recaster offers:
- Lots of free metamagic (two free Suddens, effective three free Quickens in Time mastery, free Silent)
- Archmage's best abilities 5 times per day, and then some (Space mastery).
- Two spells from any list to your class spell list. Two. Any. Spells. Any spells.

FMM offers:
- Slight efficiency improvements in one, normally slightly unimpressive spell.
-...that it.


I don't think it's really difficult to perceive which of them gains the better deal. Sudden Metamagic is normally not really worth picking due to having so few uses per day and the Quicken being so expensive prerequisite-wise, but getting multiples for free is nice.

[DragoonWraith]

OK, since people are asking, here is my "short list" of PrCs that lose spellcasting progression and are worth it. I don't claim that this is complete, though; I'm certainly not familiar with every PrC out there. Someone suggested Dracolexi, for example - it's a cool PrC, but I honestly am not familiar enough with it to say. And I'm pretty much not even considering setting-specific stuff since I don't know the vast majority of it. Tainted Scholar and its ilk are not included simply because they're stupidly broken.
Jade Phoenix Mage
Malconvoker
Recaster
Sand Shaper (for spontaneous spellcasters only)
Swiftblade (for gishes only, obviously)
War Weaver
Ultimate Magus (sort of qualifies)

And ones that don't lose spellcasting but would still be worth taking if they did:
Incantatrix
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Rainbow Servant (assuming it doesn't, but 6/10 is not good enough if it does)
Shadowcraft Mage

[SaintRidley]

Recaster offers:
- Lots of free metamagic (two free Suddens, effective three free Quickens in Time mastery, free Silent)
- Archmage's best abilities 5 times per day, and then some (Space mastery).
- Two spells from any list to your class spell list. Two. Any. Spells. Any spells.

FMM offers:
- Slight efficiency improvements in one, normally slightly unimpressive spell.
-...that it.


I don't think it's really difficult to perceive which of them gains the better deal. Sudden Metamagic is normally not really worth picking due to having so few uses per day and the Quicken being so expensive prerequisite-wise, but getting multiples for free is nice.

Right. I knew it was better, was just curious how much better people thought. I've always liked it, especially in combination with some Archmage (Spell Power) and Geometer.

[Gorbash]

What?
Scribe Scroll is free. That is 1.
You get a spell that has to be a metamagic or item creation (with one core exception) at level 5.

No, it doesn't. There are a lot of other feats in Complete Mage that can be taken as a Bonus Wizard feat. Alactritous Cogitation and Cloudy Conjuration, for example.

Not to mention Scribe Scroll can be traded away for Improved Initiative.

[magic9mushroom]

Oh no, I lost enchantment or evocation, whatever should I do? It's not like there are other schools that virtually mimic everything those schools do.

Spell slots are a whole lot less important when instead of preparing 2x or 3x a spell to buff yourself multiple times in multiple battles, you cast all your buffs and make them last a very long time. You also do the same thing with the other casters in your party. Persistent wraithstrike is really ugly.

When every optimizer out there wets their pants to take all ten levels in a prestige class that shows up in the cheesiest builds, you can bet your butt that whatever the class loses, it's not enough.

Look, I'm one of those optimisers. I know, and said, that it's stupendously powerful.

But it does lose a lot. For the same loss of one school, you could be a focused specialist instead of specialist. One extra lost school is pretty trivial if you're a generalist (evocation) but if you're already a specialist, you'll already have given up Evocation and Enchantment. You can't give up Abjuration or Divination, and giving up Conjuration or Transmutation is reeeeally suboptimal, so you're left having to give up Illusion or Necromancy. The former loses you the Shadow Evocation that makes Evocation so easy to give up in the first place, and loses you the other major school that targets Will saves (since you've already dropped Enchantment). Not good. The latter loses you one of the most effective spells to metamagic, Enervation, as well as a ton of other nasty debuffs and save-or-dies.

So basically, I knew everything you just said, and I stand by my statement that Incantatrix does lose a lot, because either you lose a non-crap school, or you give up specialising. It is worth it, certainly, and gives you a lot of power, but it does decrease the versatility that is a wizard's strongest attribute.

[GoC]

No, it wouldn't. Even metamagic shenanigans are not worth losing not only 9th but 8th level spells as well. Not in a million years, not without incredible cheese.

What if the Lightning Warrior was half caster progression but got Incantatrix abilities?

[DragoonWraith]

Doesn't the Lightning Warrior have 3 good saves, full BAB, and a d20 HD? It could have no class features and still be about as good as a Fighter. So that's a bit different.

[Starbuck_II]

But has no familiar and can't specialize: it will never be any good.

[DragoonWraith]

That joke is so tired. And I've only even been interested in D&D for less than a year.

[Myou]

That joke is so tired. And I've only even been interested in D&D for less than a year.

I've been saying the same thing. I only started playing a year ago, and had a 6 month gap in the middle of that. And I'm already sick of that joke. :smalltongue:

[Xenogears]

I've been saying the same thing. I only started playing a year ago, and had a 6 month gap in the middle of that. And I'm already sick of that joke. :smalltongue:

The Joke was never very funny....

The people in the thread it came from who thought it was serious and were frothing at the mouth as they made angry posts were quite amusing though...

[Thrawn183]

The Force Missile Mage is just about the best designed prestige class I can think of.

Edit: At least as far as prestige classes designed for casters go.

[GoC]

Doesn't the Lightning Warrior have 3 good saves, full BAB, and a d20 HD? It could have no class features and still be about as good as a Fighter. So that's a bit different.

What about something like this:
PWNAGE
Prereqs: 3rd level spells, Eschew Materials and the Quicken Spell feat
d4 hitdie
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Superb metamagic|Limitations

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Multispell bonus feat, +2 int/cha/wis|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Extra spells, Dispel Resistance|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Refreshed, +4 int/cha/wis|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Practiced, Mage-slayer Slayer|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Improved Multispell, +6 int/cha/wis|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Purely Mental|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Flexibility, +8 int/cha/wis|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Quick Thinker, Multispell bonus feat|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Not so fragile, +10 int/cha/wis|- [/table]

Limitations
You cannot cast 9th level spells while a member of this prestige class.

Suberb Metamagic
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster you get a number of levels of free metamagic equal to your level in PWNAGE per round. These can be used to reduce the level cost of any metamagic to a minimum of 1. Applying metamagic to spells no longer increases their casting time to a full-round action.
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you may reduce metamagic costs to a minimum of 1 when preparing spells but you may not cast spells in a round whose total "free" metamagic is greater than your level in PWNAGE.

Multispell bonus feat
You gain multispell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#multispell) as a bonus feat.

+X int/cha/wis
You choose whether this bonus will be a bonus to int, cha or wis when entering this class. It is an untyped bonus.

Extra spells
You gain 1 extra spell slot of every level you can cast. This increases to 2 at level 6 and 3 at level 9.

Dispel Resistance
You add your PWNAGE level to the DC of attempts to dispel spells cast by you.

Refreshed
Once per day you may replenish your spells/spell slots just as if you had rested for the day. If you are a prepared spellcaster you may change your spell selection as desired upon doing this.

Practiced
Once per day you may pick one spell you can cast. You gain that spell as an at will SLA for the next 24 hours. If the spell has an xp cost or a costly material component you must pay that price every time you use the SLA.

Mage-slayer Slayer
The Pierce Magical Protection, Pierce Magical Concealment and Mage Slayer feats do not work when used against you.
In addition, spells you cast can resist being suppressed by an antimagic field with a caster level check (DC=10+CL of antimagic field). If the spell has a duration longer than instantaneous then you may add the bonus you get from Dispel Resistance to the result of this check.

Improved Multispell
Once per round you may cast a quickened spell you have prepared as an immediate action. This counts against the number of quickened spells you can cast per round.

Purely Mental
All spells you cast are automatically silent and stilled.

Flexibility
If you are a spontaneous spellcaster then you gain one more spell known for each of the levels of spells you can cast (eg. a sorceror 6/PWNAGE 8 would gain 1 1st, 1 2nd and 1 3rd level spell known).
If you are a prepared spellcaster then you gain one extra spell slot per spell level. You may cast any spell you know from these extra spell slots even if you haven't prepared it.

Quick Thinker
All spells you cast are automatically quickened, for the price of one level of your Superb Metamagic ability instead of the usual four, whether you like it or not (this would decrease the number of spells you could cast in a round but you get another multispell at this level so it stays the same).

Not so fragile
You add your int/cha/wis bonus (depending on which you chose) as an enhancement bonus to all your other stats (str, con, dex, ect.).

9th level spells? Bah! Who needs 'em?:smallbiggrin:
It needs a bit of tweaking but I think this could actually be a viable class.:smalleek::smallconfused: