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View Full Version : Making a case for the Ninja.



FishAreWet
2010-02-20, 02:07 AM
It's not that bad!

First off: Open up Dragon 354. Yes, I know this is not a common one, but go open it up to page 87. Let's replace that ****ty invisibility class feature. Lets turn it into an (Ex) Obscuring Mist. That will eventually become poisonous. And will eventually become Solid Fog. Oh, and you ignore it. And it's a swift action. Or maybe Meld into Stone. That's good too but I'm ignoring it for now.

You now have a surefire way to deny somebody they're Dexterity. Yes, Uncanny Dodge screws this up(try to convince your DM to just give you Sneak Attack). But Undead! And stuff!

That's where the Ardent dip comes in. Magic Mantle + Able Leaner, you know have wands. You can also pick up a couple first level powers! Including Minor Creation, making poisons nice and simple. Great for your poisonous Solid Fog, right? And you are now psionically focused and can pick up [psionic] feats. But you're still not dealing enough damage!

That's where Craven + Shibia Protector come in. Adding character level + Wisdom to nearly all attacks, and adding Wisdom to attack, your offensive abilities just got a lot stronger. And pick up Ki Smite from Dragon 351. Add your Wisdom to attack and your full Ki pool to damage. But you still lack utility...

Swordsage dip! Yes, the class that 'replaces' the Ninja. Take a level of it! Get a Teleport and a silly throw and some fire abilities and 2d6 sneak attack. Just delay it in the build so you have a good IL when you pick maneuvers. And buy a ton of those Maneuver granting items. They're really good. [[and martial scrolls are straight out of Naruto]] Oh! And open up Dragon Magazine again! This time, 342. Notice that all of these Ki feats are all swift (Ex) actions that do not provoke. Yes, that means an (Ex) Hallucinatory Terrain. You can pick up a great Bull Rush, Freedom of Movement, Shatter, Knock, and Jutsu Focus. Which makes all Ki abilities act as if an extra Ki was spent in them. Then you pick up Enduring Ki from CSco, which allows ALL Ki Abilities to be spend extra Ki on... And you just effectively doubled your Ki pool! And swift action economy!



If the Ninja makes an Ardent dip and a Swordsage dip and Dragon Magazine material is allowed, it is a damn solid class that is nearly as SAD as a caster.


How many Ninja levels do I need?
10. Solid Fog is amazing. It's that simple. (It's not that simple. For some people, 2 is enough, but you have the issue of running out of Ki fast. There is also the Earth path to consider, I'm still working on that one)


Okay. I'm Ninja 10... you said something about Ardent and Swordsage dips? Then what?
Master Thrower 5 (Double amount of attacks and make them all touch attacks. You're not adding Str to damage anyways)
Paladin/PrC Paladin 2-4 (Take Serenity and everything becomes Wis based again)
Ur Priest 2 -> RNK 7 (Everything is a swift action for the poor Ninja. Get some more!)
Avenging Executioner 5 (Make things Shaken when you stab them, gain Sudden Strike against Shaken opponents. Check out the Fear Handbook for what to combine this with)
Archomancer 2 (Turn into a tiny spider 3/day! Or drop that ****ty Spider domain and turn into a tiny Scorpion and get full casting)[[also check the Adaptation. Sometimes you strike gold.]]
Blade Dancer or Ninja Spy from OA (Huge bonuses to acrobatic skills)
Cleric 1. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773.0) (It's the only handbook about a dip. And for a damn good reason)
If you took Able Leaner, try Knowledge Devotion. (The attack and damage boost is nice, especially with the high amount of attacks a ninja will put out)
Starved for feats? Yeah, me too. Buy Iron Will and Alertness. Get Point Blank Shot from a domain. Take TWF then buy iTWF from MiC.
Souknife 2 -> Soulbow 1 (Simple and strong way to get Wisdom to damage again)

Tiny house rules to consider for dealing with the Ninja
Allow Ki at Ninja level + Wisdom, instead of half. You run out just too easy.
Or make Ki per encounter.
Or allow a feat to regain it with 5 minutes of meditation.

And turn Sudden Strike into Sneak Attack. Most groups won't even notice the difference. If anything, do it for simplicities sake. The Ninja is one of the least Splat-booked base classes.

Either or both of those are small things that will avoid a lot of potential headaches for the Ninja

Mock up builds

Ninja 2/Ardent 1/Ninja +3/ Unarmed Swordsage 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Master Thrower 3/ Shibia Protector 1/ Master Thrower +2/ Ninja +5/Ardent +1
I've put the most work into this one. 14 attacks per round, 7 delivering Precision damage. ~500 damage per round with touch attacks. Capable of making own Poisons, 18 ki a day.

Ninja 8/Ur Priest 2/PrC Pally 2/ RNK 7/ XXX 1
Gets 9s and more swift actions per round. And Wisdom based Turn Undead.

Ninja 10/Soulknife 2/ Soulbow 1/ Shibia Protector 1/ XXX 6
Wisdom to damage twice and attack once. Always getting that Sudden Strike.

sonofzeal
2010-02-20, 02:11 AM
If the Ninja makes an Ardent dip and a Swordsage dip and Dragon Magazine material is allowed, it is a damn solid class
Errrrr...... that's not saying much. :smallconfused:

Looks like a good build though.

FishAreWet
2010-02-20, 02:35 AM
Errrrr...... that's not saying much. :smallconfused:

You're right. WotC gave it one extra book of course material. And that's CSco. Dragon Magazine might be rare but it contains more Ninja feats then CSco and CAdv combined. But I love the mechanics. So I tried to work them.

Ninja is considered a Tier 5, right? I contest that if Dragon Magazine is allowed, it's a strong tier 4. (Ex) Hallucinatory Terrain and Poisonous Solid Fog will help in almost any given situation. The damage potential is medium-strong, approaching 500 will low levels of optimization. Let's look at tier 5, where it is agreed to be placed it currently.


Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.
I think this might describe a Ninja 20 who never opens Dragon Magazine. The second you allow the variants in from Dragon 354 though, there is a clear jump to tier 4.


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
You really can do one this quite well. Solid Fog + Sudden Strike will shut down nearly any enemy. Up The Walls can handle a lot at low levels. The Ardent dip for UMD places the Ninja at least with the Rogue, who resides in this tier.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
But he doesn't hit this. Any situation involving multiple spread out enemies, or a low level undead/contruct heavy campaign, or anything against very high level spellcasters, he just can't keep up.

Proven_Paradox
2010-02-20, 02:37 AM
You can make a damned solid class out of Monk doing similar things. Making something good by making it almost something else doesn't work in most peoples' eyes. Also, any time you're using something from Dragon Magazine (that isn't in the Dragon Compendium especially) you're gambling on the DM allowing something that isn't usually allowed. Especially online. Perhaps if you're in a face-to-face game and can show the DM said Dragon Magazines, your chances get better.

It's a neat build and quite useful indeed, but it's based on some suppositions I don't think will happen that often.

I actually quite like the CAdv Ninja, but its primary problem is that it's just not a team player. The best way to use one in combat pretty much completely precludes your allies. Get one going solo that can reasonably fade back into the shadows though? Take the Crossbow Sniper feat, maximize your hide check, and shoot from cover. Sudden Strike applies if they're flat footed (and don't have Combat Reflexes of course). If they can't find you, they're flat footed. Snipe at them, hide, repeat over a prolonged battle. If you screw up and they spot you, you can turn invisible to get out of their grasp. That could get deadly. (Assuming no Touchsight and friends, of course. Though you might be able to defeat that with Darkstalker.)

FishAreWet
2010-02-20, 02:41 AM
You can make a damned solid class out of Monk doing similar things. Making something good by making it almost something else doesn't work in most peoples' eyes. Also, any time you're using something from Dragon Magazine (that isn't in the Dragon Compendium especially) you're gambling on the DM allowing something that isn't usually allowed. Especially online. Perhaps if you're in a face-to-face game and can show the DM said Dragon Magazines, your chances get better.

It's a neat build and quite useful indeed, but it's based on some suppositions I don't think will happen that often.

Allowance of material is always an issue, I give you that.

but taking 10 levels of the base class is hardly turning it into something else, is it?

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 02:48 AM
Fully agree with Zeal. It's not enough to make a good case for the Ninja, but it makes for a pretty solid build.

CA Ninja, as it stands, is not exactly a bad class. Sudden Strike has some troubles executing, but by higher levels you should expect better ways to get Invisibility. The ki powers are not that bad, except that they're TOO short; however, if you manage to get a tad further, you get both Ethereal Strike and ways to get to the Ethereal Plane for your troubles. You get more use of Wis than the Monk, albeit not of the same caliber as what the Cleric or the Psychic Warrior do. In fact, as it stands, CA Ninja is strictly better than the Monk, and only slightly worse than the Rogue because the former lacks UMD. In fact, it's slightly better than the Fighter!

The addition of Ki feats on Dragon Magazine is about the only thing they've thought for the Ninja, alongside Complete Scoundrel. Dragon Magazine isn't always considered a usable material on most games, so even if you can make an awesome Solid Poisonous Fog, it won't matter much if you can't have access to it, which is the most important thing. Out of the box, Ninja isn't bad, but it needs some work to make it better. Intuitive Attack or Weapon Finesse deal with making Strength less important, since Sudden Strike deals with most of the trouble; you still have some MAD issues, but not as severe as the Monk. The ki powers are weak because they last for too little, but they aren't bad; concealment and invisibility (which doesn't turn off after attacking, so it's a 1/round/daily use of ki Greater Invisibility which eventually turns into Ethereal Jaunt) are nice defensive measures. Granted, True Seeing and force effects still get you, but it's not as bad as, say, not having them. And True Seeing is only shared by clever wizards and most of the strongest fiends; by the time blindsight and tremorsense start screwing with your Invisibility, the ability to go AND strike from the ethereal plane become quite valuable. Swift action, even, so you can pretty much do a full attack and screw them over.

Now, I won't say the build is good, but it doesn't do much for the Ninja. You have to think what else is good for the Ninja, and act upon. A Ninja that can reliably do fear effects could go, say, Ninja X/spellcaster X/Dread Witch X/Ghost-Faced Killer X (or Avenging Executioner X) and take advantage of denying immunities to fear in order to cause cowering and from there overpowering the enemy. Or, you can take advantage of other classes; Shadow Sun Ninja isn't so bad (and you get advancement for maneuvers, which is doubly good), and if you get Cleric levels you might even get...Black Flame Zealot?

It all depends on what you can reliably do with a ninja, which is mostly being capable of doing mostly what the Rogue does, except with an unreliable version of Sneak Attack (which is a moot point since you'll be seeking Invisibility and flat-footed with Rogue anyways), less skill points and no UMD (which also means no Charisma dependence unless you really want to push it). If a Rogue can use it, think that a Ninja might use it too. If a Rogue needs a push because it reliably lacks invisibility and concealment, the Ninja will use it better. If the Ninja can get to a PrC that uses UMD, you can reliably outpace the Rogue (just...going a bit more MAD than usual). One build won't do much; several good builds will prove a lot more.

Pluto
2010-02-20, 02:56 AM
Now I want to play a sneaky character with a flatulence problem.

Optimystik
2010-02-20, 09:10 AM
(Assuming no Touchsight and friends, of course. Though you might be able to defeat that with Darkstalker.)

Darkstalker does nothing vs. either Touchsight or Mindsight.

Mind Blank may block Mindsight (talk to your DM) and anything that blocks LoE blocks Touchsight, so that Meld Into Stone move may come in handy here.

Runestar
2010-02-20, 09:17 AM
If by good, you mean splashing 2 lvs for ki invis, then yes, I agree with you that is pretty much what it is good for - a 2lv dip.

Still no incentive to play one all the way to lv 20. :smallconfused:

Gnaeus
2010-02-20, 02:12 PM
Ninja is definitely a tier 4 class....For you.

The tier system is built with the assumption that good optimization and play can raise any class a tier. This is especially true with dips (a fighter or paladin with ToB dips can hit tier 4, especially if optimized.) That really says less about ninja and more about your level and style of play. It really is that bad, you are just using optimization tricks a little better.

For comparison, your ninja build is as good as a normal unoptimized rogue, or maybe better, but a rogue using multiple splatbooks and dips, with good optimization can easily run at tier 3, outclassing your ki tricks with heavy use of umd.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 09:30 PM
If by good, you mean splashing 2 lvs for ki invis, then yes, I agree with you that is pretty much what it is good for - a 2lv dip.

Still no incentive to play one all the way to lv 20. :smallconfused:

That's a crude way to say you don't know much about the class. I could agree if it was the Monk, and I find incentive for 6 levels of Monk, but going with a really silly dip that can be beaten by nearly anything is...poor thought.

I'd say the best breaking point is once you get both the ability to turn ethereal (10th level). If you can find a way to maximize your use of Wis, you can do a really good build and take advantage of that. Going invisible is something you can do far more reliably with 3,500 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance) or less. Going ethereal is a tad harder, and not so easy to work with, given that you become incorporeal while ethereal, but you can't use OR get affected by Ghost Touch weapons (since those affect only incorporeal creatures, but not creatures within the Ethereal Plane). While at that, you get at least 5d6 of Sudden Strike (and means to use the ability reliably without the need of flanking) and your Wis to AC plus some extra AC. From there, you can go to another class and work something decent, or enter a PrC if you so desire.

Indeed, the Ninja is not the best of classes around there, but it's not the debacle that the Monk is, and it does far much more than a simple dip of two levels. Heck, the Monk's two level dip is far much more useful than the Ninja's two level dip, yet that doesn't mean the Ninja is far worse than the Monk because of that.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-20, 09:39 PM
That's a crude way to say you don't know much about the class. I could agree if it was the Monk, and I find incentive for 6 levels of Monk, but going with a really silly dip that can be beaten by nearly anything is...poor thought.

I'd say the best breaking point is once you get both the ability to turn ethereal (10th level). If you can find a way to maximize your use of Wis, you can do a really good build and take advantage of that. Going invisible is something you can do far more reliably with 3,500 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance) or less. Going ethereal is a tad harder, and not so easy to work with, given that you become incorporeal while ethereal, but you can't use OR get affected by Ghost Touch weapons (since those affect only incorporeal creatures, but not creatures within the Ethereal Plane). While at that, you get at least 5d6 of Sudden Strike (and means to use the ability reliably without the need of flanking) and your Wis to AC plus some extra AC. From there, you can go to another class and work something decent, or enter a PrC if you so desire.

Indeed, the Ninja is not the best of classes around there, but it's not the debacle that the Monk is, and it does far much more than a simple dip of two levels. Heck, the Monk's two level dip is far much more useful than the Ninja's two level dip, yet that doesn't mean the Ninja is far worse than the Monk because of that.

Or you can spend 2 feats to become Ethereal At Will at 12th level. And generate random encounters at will.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 09:59 PM
Or you can spend 2 feats to become Ethereal At Will at 12th level. And generate random encounters at will.

Mind sparing that tactic? Nothing seems to come to mind. Then again, you need to do something particularly useful in order to work something with that Ethereal ability at will.

Which reminds me...I completely forgot that you don't need Ghost Touch. Force weapon enhancement is by all means better.

P.S.: Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak) + Open Lesser Chakra? You still become material if you move, which...defeats the purpose of using the ability unless you never stop moving. Unless you wish to run away. Or cross a wall (which I believe is the best use for it).

It does make for a weird Spring Attack build with Force weapons, tho.

Tanaric
2010-02-20, 10:12 PM
Which reminds me...I completely forgot that you don't need Ghost Touch. Force weapon enhancement is by all means better.

Unless I'm missing something specific with the Force enhancement (which is possible, given that I'm not even sure where it's from), that shouldn't work to strike from the Ethereal. The only way I know to do that is with the Ethereal Reaver from CPsi.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 10:15 PM
Unless I'm missing something specific with the Force enhancement (which is possible, given that I'm not even sure where it's from), that shouldn't work to strike from the Ethereal. The only way I know to do that is with the Ethereal Reaver from CPsi.

True.

Then again, there's the Ninja's Ghost Strike...

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-20, 10:31 PM
Mind sparing that tactic? Nothing seems to come to mind. Then again, you need to do something particularly useful in order to work something with that Ethereal ability at will.

Which reminds me...I completely forgot that you don't need Ghost Touch. Force weapon enhancement is by all means better.

P.S.: Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak) + Open Lesser Chakra? You still become material if you move, which...defeats the purpose of using the ability unless you never stop moving. Unless you wish to run away. Or cross a wall (which I believe is the best use for it).

It does make for a weird Spring Attack build with Force weapons, tho.

Flyby Attack/Travel Devotion+Phase Cloak. Oh, and unless they can see onto the Ethereal Plane, you can make a Hide check when you reappear. It's actually very useful in spite of the restrictions.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 11:02 PM
Flyby Attack/Travel Devotion+Phase Cloak. Oh, and unless they can see onto the Ethereal Plane, you can make a Hide check when you reappear. It's actually very useful in spite of the restrictions.

Then that's three feats unless you are from an Incarnum class (which would justify Flyby Attack). That's still one attack, though, and it may not even work since Ethereal isn't exactly as Incorporeal. In fact, the one thing that I recalled could be used (Force weapons) can't be used to attack creatures from the Material Plane while Ethereal.

Travel Devotion is even less useful since you have to stop your movement to attack anyways, and once you stop, you reappear. Which is why I said that it makes for a weird Spring Attack/Flyby Attack build. You still need Ethereal Reaver to make the tactic useful, tho.

Ninja-etherealness is a tad odd, tho. It's a swift action (it does not consume any of your moves!), but it consumes one of your daily uses of Ki to work it out for one round, and it consumes your swift action. Ghost Strike is still pretty awesome, tho...even if it's a single attack. Which consumes ki. A single, ki-consuming attack that potentially ignores armor and potentially treats the creature as flat-footed, so it's pretty sure to hit. Snap Kick?

Tanaric
2010-02-20, 11:27 PM
True.

Then again, there's the Ninja's Ghost Strike...

*smacks forehead*

I had the feeling I was missing something incredibly obvious there. :smallredface:

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-20, 11:34 PM
*smacks forehead*

I had the feeling I was missing something incredibly obvious there. :smallredface:

Well...it's a Ninja class ability. You really intend to keep in on the dark? Seriously? You know...hidden? :smallbiggrin: