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View Full Version : [4e] Leader-less/healer-less party--Can we make it work?



opheliagonemad
2010-02-20, 11:55 AM
So, we are starting off a brand new 4e campaign this weekend, and it's looking like our player who was planning on playing a cleric may not be able to stay in the game because of scheduling trouble. Which, so far as I can tell, leaves us more or less without anyone who can do effective in-combat healing. Now, granted, our cleric was planning on building a warpriest type anyway, but still. This is our party makeup as it stands, if the cleric leaves:

Enna, half-elf wild magic sorcerer (my character)
Lolani, tropical themed dwarf druid
Kana, dwarf druid's invoker sister
Otzi the Gill, human fighter
Thorn, Shifter ranger

We are all level one. Now, the DM (my dear boyfriend) has given us some idea of the setting--fairly dark and cynical-it's definitely the dark ages, at least outside of very large settlements. The very large settlements are more civilized, but only just. It's the type of place where wars and disasters come fairly frequently, the type of place where the sorcerer has to be careful about not flaunting her magic in small villages because they'll burn her as a witch. The type of place where magic is rare enough that magic items are almost non-existent. So, in other words, not having someone who can magically heal wounds is consistent with the setting. But how do we handle this in game?

Our options, as we see it:
1) Build in a mechanic where someone trained in heal can stabilize a person to keep them from dying outright until they can be brought to a temple/witch doctor for healing.
2) Add in a healbot NPC.
3) Have a character pick up a multiclass that gives them some healing, if any of them can make it work with the character--ie, not my sorcerer who's supposed to run around talking to a rag doll/being very Ophelia-esque.
4) Rely on potions. See the general rarity of magic, and the fact that healing potions don't really do the job after a certain point.
5) Recruit a new player down the line or have someone re-write their character. We're all very much role-players more than roll-players, so that may be tough, and DM has developed the campaign threads around the characters we have given him.

So, denizens of the playground, what would you do?

Tequila Sunrise
2010-02-20, 12:19 PM
I'd ask the DM for a healbot NPC. Alternatively, kill stuff before you need to heal, but that requires a bit of opti-fu unless your DM goes easy on you.

the humanity
2010-02-20, 12:21 PM
screw with races? I homebrewed a type of fey to have cure minor wounds at will.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-20, 01:56 PM
I think your best options are to have a number of party members be trained in heal, not to be afraid to run from a tough fight or one going poorly (which may be part of the point of the setting) and otherwise fight smart (focus fire to take out enemies quicker, remember to use second wind, etc). Someone should take the brew potion ritual (most likely the invoker) so you can eventually make your own potions. I've found potions of regeneration to be simply amazing at keeping the party going when they're hurt, although it's still nice to have a real healer in the party.

AgentPaper
2010-02-20, 02:23 PM
If you're really worried, ask your DM to houserule that second wind is a move action instead of standard. Other than that, having a few people multiclass to a leader class, like cleric or warlord, should also help a lot. Honestly, you really don't need a leader that badly in 4E, especially with multiclassing. Remember that you can spend healing surges outside of combat even without a healer, since second wind is an encounter power. It's a bit less efficient, so you might need some surge-boosting feats and items to make up for that if you're running more than a few encounters a day, but other than that I don't see any really major problems.

greenknight
2010-02-20, 05:46 PM
Characters can already use the Heal skill to stabilize the dying (DC15), grant a saving throw (DC15) or activate another character's second wind (DC10). I recommend the Druid take the Combat Medic feat (PHB2) to make stabilizing the wounded a minor action.

Aside from that, your characters can take a Second Wind once per combat (and it's a minor action for a Dwarf). The Druid might also multiclass to Shaman using the Mending Spirit feat (Primal Power), to get Healing Spirit 1/Encounter.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-02-20, 08:17 PM
I played a Dwarf ES Warden in a leaderless party, and, well, I never needed a healer.

Thrawn183
2010-02-20, 08:24 PM
I played in a party that was 3 strikers and 1 defender that was built as much towards damage output as possible....we didn't need healing.

erikun
2010-02-20, 08:38 PM
The problem with healing isn't out of combat healing. Anyone resting for 5 minutes can spend healing surges to bring themselves up to full, even if unconcious. The problem is in combat healing.

If you're looking for a quick fix, simply allow each character to use their Second Wind twice an encounter, rather than once. Anyone with a decent Heal check can act as a leader by spending standard actions to allow other party members to spend surges for "free". It's not as efficient as an actual leader, but it does have the advantage that anyone can spend their surges, and anyone can use Heal checks.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-21, 07:55 AM
1) Build in a mechanic where someone trained in heal can stabilize a person
Stabilizing people isn't the problem. Heal checks are pretty easy. The problem is that without a leader, anyone who goes down in combat stays down, unless you spend potions and/or standard actions to get them back up.



3) Have a character pick up a multiclass that gives them some healing,
This is a very good idea. Multiclass feats are very good already, so if two or three characters take e.g. cleric or warlord multiclass that helps a lot.


4) Rely on potions. See the general rarity of magic, and the fact that healing potions don't really do the job after a certain point.
The problem with potions is mainly that using them on someone else is tricky.



If you're looking for a quick fix, simply allow each character to use their Second Wind twice an encounter, rather than once.
That wouldn't actually help. I don't recall seeing any non-dwarf use his second wind in the past year or so, because it's almost always bad idea tactically.

RebelRogue
2010-02-21, 01:27 PM
Sure, it's a disadvantage, but it's not a hopeless case either. With two dwarves in the party, they can take care of themselves to a degree (with second wind as a minor action) and the Invoker may or may not have some secondary leader abilities. Stock up on potions when you have the chance and be sure to deal with monsters quickly. Multiclassing into a leader class is a great idea too.

erikun
2010-02-21, 04:17 PM
That wouldn't actually help. I don't recall seeing any non-dwarf use his second wind in the past year or so, because it's almost always bad idea tactically.
It's a bad idea tactically compared to allowing a leader to heal, but it isn't a bad idea. I've had games where nobody used their second wind for months. I've had games where everyone in the party used their second wind, in multiple encounters. I've had game where I (the Druid) used a Heal check to activate the second wind of the Barbarian, because his damage and encounter-ending potential far exceeded mine.

"Bad idea tactically" is a relative term. If you can just delay until the leader/Paladin can heal you, then the second wind is a waste of resources. If the leader is out of heals, though, it is frequently better to stay standing rather than taking another 1[W] damage out of a single enemy.

Kurald Galain
2010-02-21, 04:28 PM
It's a bad idea tactically compared to allowing a leader to heal, but it isn't a bad idea.
Yes, but there's also the problem that second wind doesn't heal all that much. A monster attack deals about an equal amount of damage.

The best defense is a good offense in D&D.

ericgrau
2010-02-21, 07:47 PM
Still better than dying. If you were alone you'd only be delaying the inevitable, but you're not. What seems pointless would be using a 2nd wind when you're not about to die.

Still, I thought 4e was supposed to fix the need for a healer. No? It still seems like an interesting game that I may try if I ever get the chance, but this is about the twelfth thing that 4e doesn't actually fix.

greenknight
2010-02-21, 08:23 PM
Still, I thought 4e was supposed to fix the need for a healer. No? It still seems like an interesting game that I may try if I ever get the chance, but this is about the twelfth thing that 4e doesn't actually fix.

It's already been mentioned that characters can use their Second Wind in combat, and once they've had a short rest they can heal back to full hitpoints if they have enough healing surges. Those two things mean that healers aren't actually needed, but that doesn't mean that healers aren't useful.

And I still think Shaman multiclassing (Primal Power's Mending Spirit) is the way to go because it gives you healing 1/encounter, compared to the normal 1/day when you multiclass with a leader.

Yakk
2010-02-21, 08:44 PM
That is 1 feat "deep" in the shaman MC tree -- ie, you have to shaman MC, then burn another feat for that heal.

It is a great feat, and I find shaman MCing sort of fun (you get a spirit pet!)

I'd advise against changing the rules -- a party of 5 4e D&D characters can deal with the lack of healing. You might not be optimal, but you will be able to handle even level, and even up to L+3 encounters, with skill.


Enna, half-elf wild magic sorcerer (my character)
Lolani, tropical themed dwarf druid
Kana, dwarf druid's invoker sister
Otzi the Gill, human fighter
Thorn, Shifter ranger

That being said, bias towards granting yourself HP (and temporary HP) and the like.

The Shifter Ranger should be a Longtooth Shifter.
The Human Fighter should think about going Battlerager (18 str, 16 con at level 1, Brash Strike, Cleave, the at-will that Invigorates, use Chain and a Heavy Shield for 18 starting AC -- or just ignore the damage bonus, and go Scale and Heavy Shield for 19 starting AC).
The Dwarves should think about MCing shaman for the spirit companion, and at level 2 pick up the 1 healing spirit/encounter power (which is just really strong in general).
The sorcerer might want to think to pick up the new "Unarmed Defence" feat from PHB3 that grants a +2 feat bonus to AC when in cloth or no armor.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-21, 09:10 PM
The sorcerer might want to think to pick up the new "Unarmed Defence" feat from PHB3 that grants a +2 feat bonus to AC when in cloth or no armor.
Why Unarmed Defense over Leather Armor? :smallconfused:

rayne_dragon
2010-02-21, 09:18 PM
Why Unarmed Defense over Leather Armor? :smallconfused:

I seem to recall a number of usefull enchantments for casters being cloth only, so it may be better depending on how one plans to build their character.

Sir_Elderberry
2010-02-21, 09:33 PM
Saturday, I was at my local gaming store for an LFR game, walked up to the 1-4 table (I was late and they were about to start) and said "Look, I've got a 3 bard and a 2 sorcerer, which do you want?". They had a Paladin/Druid, a ranger, a ranger, a wizard who seemed fairly damaged focus, and me. I ended up bringing the sorcerer. I know LFR games are pretty easy, but we blew through this stuff. No combat lasted longer than three rounds, and the combat that did had ten enemies in it, and we missed a fair amount.

Moral of the story: You don't need to heal when the rest of the world is dead.

Way1and
2010-02-21, 09:51 PM
Just got back into D&D and still learning 4e... but I like it so far.

We just started out in a twisted version of Terry Brook's Four Lands. Our DM has ruled no divine magic whatsoever, so to compensate, anytime someone uses an action point, they gain back five HP.