[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests! [Archive] - Page 5

Gorgondantess

2010-07-22, 05:20 PM

Iron Golem
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG135.jpg
See the little guy? He's 8 feet tall.

HD: d10
{table=head]
Level|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Features
1|+0|+0|+0|+0|Iron Incarnate, Metal Bound
2|+1|+0|+0|+0|Indomitable, Str +1
3|+2| +1| +1| +1|Iron Plating, Upgrade, Str +1
4|+3| +1| +1| +1|Magic Resistance, Str +1
5|+3| +1| +1| +1|Wasting Breath, Str +1
6|+4| +2| +2| +2|Massive Build, Upgrade, Str +1
7|+5| +2| +2| +2|Greater Iron Plating, Indomitable Charge, Str +1
8|+6/+1| +2| +2| +2|Minor Magic Immunity, Str +1
9|+6/+1| +3| +3| +3|Growth, Upgrade, Str +1
10|+7/+2| +3| +3| +3|Lesser Magic Immunity, Str +1
11|+8/+3| +3| +3| +3|Lead Feet, Powerful Slam, Str +1
12|+9/+4|+4| +4| +4|Greater Magic Immunity, Upgrade, +1 Str
13|+9/+4|+4| +4| +4|Perfect Magic Immunity, Mirrored Iron, +1 Str[/table]
Class Skills (2+ Int Modifier): None.

Proficiencies: The Iron Golem is proficient with his natural weapons, and simple and martial weapons.

Iron Incarnate: The Iron Golem loses all racial modifiers and receives the Construct type (which grants darkvision 60'), medium size, 20 ft. land speed, and 2 natural slam attacks dealing 1d8+strength modifier damage.
In addition, the Iron Golem takes +50% damage from electricity damage.

The Iron Golem has all the characteristics of the construct type (which has been changed from the normal construct type, so it is highly advisable the below is read):

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, fatigue or exhaustion, or energy drain.
Cannot heal damage on its own, although it can be healed. Magical fire damage heals the iron golem 1 point of health per 3 damage it would normally do. An iron golem is otherwise immune to fire.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Never being alive to begin with, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. It can only be revived by a wish, limited wish, miracle, or by reconstructing the Iron Golem's body (requiring 1,000 pounds of iron- or the golem's previous body-, 2,500 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 16 weaponsmithing or armorsmithing check) and then a reincarnate spell, which will always put the golem's soul into the new effigy.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Lastly, the Iron Golem gains natural armor bonus equal to his strength modifier. This natural armor bonus increases by 1 when the golem's size increases.
The Golem also gains +1 HP per HD. This bonus increases to +2 at 8 HD, +3 at 12 HD, +4 at 16 HD, and +5 at 20 HD. The hp increases are retroactive.

Metal Bound: The Iron Golem's plating gives an armor bonus equal to 4+1/2 HD. This armor can be enchanted. It does not reduce movement speed, though it doesn't allow the golem to run and precludes wearing any other armor.

Ability Score Increases: The Iron Golem gains a +1 bonus to strength at all levels but 1st.

Indomitable: The Iron Golem gains a bonus to strength checks equal to his HD, and uses his strength score to determine balance and intimidate checks, as opposed to dexterity and charisma, respectively.

Iron Plating: The Iron Golem gains DR/adamantine equal to 1/2 HD.

Upgrade:
The golem continually tinkers with its own mechanics, and at 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, it gains one of the below upgrades. The golem may also spend a feat to instantly gain a new upgrade.
Wrist Razors:
Various retractable spikes, blades and appendages spring out from around and on the golem's hand: its slam attacks now deal piercing, slashing or bludgeoning damage, and are considered adamantine for the purposes of damage reduction.
All subsequent applications of this upgrade increases the damage dealt by the golem's slam attacks by one step, and increases their threat range to 19-20. This stacks with improved critical. A third application of this upgrade increases the damage dealt by an additional step and increases the critical multiplier to x3. A fourth and final step increases the golem's reach by 5 feet with his natural slam attacks, and increases the damage by an additional step.
While the spikes are extended, the golem's hand is considered full. It may retract and extend them as a free action.

Weapon Compartment:
The golem's arm becomes hollowed out, and a melee weapon the golem is proficient in or a javelin is stored inside: he may release it or retract it as a free action. The weapon cannot be disarmed. It is considered adamantine, and the golem does not have to pay for it, though he does have to pay for any enchantments on it (it can be enchanted normally).
In the case of the javelin, it is attached by a chain, and the golem can return it to his arm by taking a swift action. He cannot fire the javelin if his hand is full.
A second application of this upgrade allows him to store 2 weapons, one in either arm.

Grappling Hook:
The Golem gains a chain & hook attached to his palm and spooled in his arm, which he can launch up to a distance of 30 feet plus 5 per HD, as a ranged touch attack. If successful, the golem makes a grapple check as if he had the improved grapple feat. If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square (golem's choice), and the grapple goes on as normal.
An additional application of this upgrade allows the golem to deal an additional 1d8+strength modifier (or 2d6+str if large sized) constriction damage each turn of the grapple.

Wristbows:
The golem gains a heavy repeating crossbow suitable to his size, which he is considered proficient in, attached to his forearm. He may fire & reload this weapon one handed, as the crank is automatic, and it does not fill up his hand. The bows may be enchanted normally.
Additional applications of this upgrade improve the wristbow in one of the following ways, chosen when the upgrade is taken:

*Dual Wristbows: The Golem gains a wristbow on each arm. Any other upgrades apply to both wristbows.
*Steam Powered: The Golem powers the bow by steam heated by internal contraptions, rather than being spring loaded, and it uses bolts of solid iron, rather than wooden bolts: he adds his strength modifier to damage with the bows, and they are considered adamantine.
*Superheated: The steam heats the bolts to red-hot: he adds fire damage to attacks with the bolts equal to his HD. Requires Steam Powered.
*Quick Shot: Whenever the Golem succeeds on a slam attack with an arm that has an attached wristbow, he may fire the wristbow as a swift action against whatever he hit. The opponent is considered flat footed against this attack, and the threat range doubles. This does not stack with similar effects.
*Ballista(e): The wristbow does damage of a crossbow one size greater than normal. This may be taken multiple times, up to colossal.

Voicebox:
The golem's vocal systems become more advanced. He gains the effects of a continuous ghost sound ability (as an (ex)), and gains a bonus to bluff, diplomacy & intimidate checks equal to 1/2 his HD.

Chest Compartment:
The golem can open up his chest, and store things inside. At medium size, he can store 1 small object, 4 tiny objects, 16 diminutive objects, etc.- at large size, these sizes increase by one step. Finding the chest compartment requires a search check DC (10+1/2 HD+int mod), and opening it against the golem's will requires an opposed strength check against the golem.
An additional application of this upgrade makes the storage compartment an extradimensional space, ala a bag of holding of a type equal to 1/4 the golem's HD.

Perfect Hands:
The golem's slam attacks are considered either magic and the golem's alignment, or cold iron and silver. Two applications of this upgrade allow both.

Long Legs:
The Golem gains Run as a bonus feat, gets a bonus to jump checks equal to 1/2 his HD, and gains a +10' bonus to move speed.

Restorative Metals:
The golem has a natural healing rate as if he were living, and is healed by positive energy half of what a normal humanoid would be healed.

Magic Resistance: The Iron Golem gains SR equal to 11+HD.

Wasting Breath: As a free action once every minute during his turn, the iron golem may breath out a cloud of poisonous gas which fills a 10' cone in front of the golem, plus 5' for every 3 HD beyond 5, up to 35 at 20 HD. Any caught in the gas must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod) or take constitution damage equal to 1/2 the golem's HD.

Massive Build: The Iron Golem gains the powerful build ability, and his natural slam attacks now deal 1d12+strength modifier damage.

Greater Iron Plating: The Iron Golem's DR increases to equal his HD, as opposed to 1/2 HD.

Indomitable Charge: The Iron Golem, when making a charge attack against an enemy, may make an intimidation check as a free action against that enemy before hitting: if it succeeds, the enemy is stunned for one round. This is a fear effect.

Minor Magic Immunity: The Golem becomes immune to any 1st or 2nd level spell that allows SR. The golem may still allow beneficial spells to go through, such as those that deal fire damage.

Growth: The golem loses his powerful build ability, but gains large size. His natural slam attacks deal 2d8+strength modifier damage.
To reconstruct the iron golem's body now requires 5,000 pounds of iron- or the golem's previous body-, 10,000 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 20 weaponsmithing or armorsmithing check.

Lesser Magic Immunity: As Minor Magic Immunity, but 1st-4th level spells.

Lead Feet: The Golem, being made of denser stuff than most, automatically succeeds on any attempt to resist bull rush, overrun, grapple or trip attempts from creatures its size or smaller. If the Iron Golem would have to make a saving throw or skill check as a part of a move action against something that would hinder his movement (such as stepping through webs or keeping his balance on ice/grease) he may add his Str bonus to the roll, even if it already adds his strength bonus- in this case, the strength bonus simply doubles.

Powerful Slam: The Golem's slam damage increases to 2d10+1.5x strength modifier damage, and gains the effects of the awesome blow feat with his slams only. If he already has the awesome blow ability, the save DC increases by 2.

Greater Magic Immunity: As Minor Magic Immunity, but 1st-6th level spells.

Perfect Magic Immunity: As Minor Magic Immunity, but all spells 1st-9th level.

Mirrored Iron: The Golem is affected as if by a permanent spell turning: all spells with the golem specifically as a target are deflected back at the caster.

Changelog: Added another couple of strength bonuses, added upgrades, added strength-to-intimidate, took away penalties in metal bound.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-22, 06:35 PM

Being the longest and hardest to make of any monster class I've done, I'd greatly appreciate a good critiquing.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-22, 07:20 PM

Force Golem
http://pds5.egloos.com/pds/200707/24/31/d0046631_04073836.jpg

HD: d10
{table=head]
Level|
BAB|
Fort|
Ref|
Will|Features
1|+0|+0|+0|+0|Force Incarnate, Force Control, +1 Str, +1 Dex
2|+1|+0|+0|+0|Force Armor, Alloy Liquidity, +1 Str, +1 Cha
3|+2| +1| +1| +1|Magic Resistance, Quicksilver, +1 Str, +1 Dex
4|+3| +1| +1| +1|Powerful Construction, +1 Str, +1 Cha
[/table]
Class Skills (2+ Int Modifier): None

Proficiencies: The Force Golem is proficient with his natural weapons, and simple and martial weapons.

Force Incarnate: The Force Golem loses all racial modifiers and receives the Construct type (which grants darkvision 60'), medium size, 30 ft. land speed, and 2 natural slam attacks dealing 1d6+strength modifier damage. The Force Golem cannot wear armor.
In addition, the Force Golem takes +50% damage from force damage.

The Force Golem has all the characteristics of the construct type (which has been changed from the normal construct type, so it is highly advisable the below is read):

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, fatigue or exhaustion, or energy drain.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Magical sonic damage heals the iron golem 1 point of health per 3 damage it would normally do.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Never being alive to begin with, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. It can only be revived by a wish, limited wish, miracle, or by reconstructing the Force Golem's body (requiring 2,250 gp worth of specially treated alloys- or the golem's previous body-, 2,500 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 18 weaponsmithing or armorsmithing check) and then a reincarnate spell, which will always put the golem's soul into the new effigy.
Constructs does not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Force Control: At level 1st level, the Force Golem can choose one of the following abilities below, usable at will. Every class level thereafter the golem gains 1 more ability.
*Pulse: As a standard action, the Force Golem may launch a bolt of force at any target within 60' as a ranged touch attack, plus an additional 5 feet for each additional HD thereafter; if he hits, the golem makes an opposed strength check against the target, adding his own charisma modifier. If he succeeds, the opponent is flung 5 feet in a direction of the golem's choice, and is knocked prone. The distance of this ability increases by 5' at 6th level, and by another 5 every 3 levels thereafter, up to 30' at level 18. The golem may also choose the fling the target straight into the air, where they take appropriate falling damage. If the opponent's movement is stopped by a wall or barrier, they take 1d6 damage per 5' they would have normally gone.
*Reactive Force: Whenever an opponent attacks and misses the Force Golem in melee, the force golem may move the opponent 5 feet to an empty space in any direction as a free action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
*Force Burst: As a standard action, the golem may unleash a 30 ft. radius blast of force centered on itself. Any caught in the blast take 1d6 damage per 3 HD of the Force Golem (up to 6d6 at 18 HD) and are knocked prone. If the opponent succeeds on a reflex save (DC 10+1/2HD+cha mod) they take half damage and are not knocked prone.
*Force Slam: As a full round action, the golem slams into the enemy, channeling its force abilities: it deals normal slam damage plus charisma modifier; if he hits, he can make a free bull rush attempt, and add his charisma modifier to the strength check. If this succeeds, the opponent is knocked prone.
At 8 HD the golem can use this ability as a standard action, and at 13 HD as a part of a full round attack.

Lastly, the Force Golem gains natural armor bonus equal to his strength modifier.
The Golem also gains +1 HP per HD at 5 HD. This bonus increases to +2 at 10 HD, +3 at 15 HD, and +4 at 20 HD.

Ability Score Increases: The Force Golem gains +1 Strength at all levels, +1 Charisma at levels 2 & 4, and +1 Dexterity at levels 1 & 3, for a grand total of +4 strength, +2 dexterity, and +2 charisma.

Force Armor: The force golem adds his charisma modifier to AC as a deflection bonus. In addition, the Force Golem gains DR/adamantine equal to 1/2 HD.

Alloy Liquidity: The Force Golem gains a bonus to balance, climb, jump, and tumble checks equal to 1/2 its HD.

Magic Resistance: The Force Golem gains SR 13+HD.

Quicksilver: The Force Golem gains a bonus to reflex saves equal to its charisma modifier.

Powerful Construction: The force golem gains the powerful build ability, and his slam attacks deal 1d8+strength modifier damage.

Changelog/Comments:
Okay, so, I spread out force control over the levels, and removed the class skills and good reflex save but added alloy liquidity & Quicksilver (which pretty much makes up for it). I also gave it much, much higher ability scores. Sure, it doesn't get to wear armor... but it gets both strength charisma and dexterity to AC, and gains a +2 bonus to all 3 of them. It's sortof a battlefield control glasscannon type... a lot of immunities, some cool abilities, but low AC & HP.
The only problem I can see is that it's attribute dependent... but I can live with that.

Oslecamo

2010-07-23, 07:07 AM

Vrock added to the list.

AutonstheGreat1:Your earth elemental looks very good but I think it could use a couple of tweaks:
-Earth embrace ignore freedom of movement.
-Capstone SM keep increasing with HD so you can use SM IX at 20 HD or something like that. And in restropetective do it for the air elemental as well.

Volthawk:just hook horror levels. If it was HD it would say so.

Being the longest and hardest to make of any monster class I've done, I'd greatly appreciate a good critiquing.

Great take on the golems, but there's some things I disagree:
-Remove the no swim penalty. Even melee dudes in D&D have the right to bend physics, let alone arcane animated contructs.
-Remove the skill penalty. The iron golem's plate is suposed to be a literal second skin. And it already has few skill points and no class skills to represent his inaptitude at those fields.
-Wasting breath with a regular cooldown instead of per ecounter, wich is kinda of an abstract concept and should be limited to ToB stuff. I sugest 5 rounds like the binder strongest abilities.
-Like undeads all construcsts have poor BAB. Give it +1 Str at all levels to represent his physical prowess.

Otherwise, it kinda looks like a one trick pony since most of his abilities are defensive, so I would add the following:
-Intimidate using str.
-His massive plated body provides cover to smaller nearby allies.
-Ability to upgrade his fists to exotic materials.
-Ability to integrate weapons inside his body and draw them as a free action?
-Ability to hide stuff inside him (including medium or smaller sized humanoids)?
-Rocket punch? With his low low mobility he really needs some long range attack to deal with pesky flying orbwizards and mounted archers. Firing his fists would be cool and profitable. Retrieve them with an attached chain.

On the force golem:
-Constructs don't get good saves or class skills. No exception.
-It could use a couple more stat increases.
-Two first levels kinda empty. Make it unlock one force power per level instead of all at 3rd level.

Otherwise great job! The golems were a very tough challenge to begin with but you're tackling them quite well!:smallsmile:

I specially like the ressurection rebuild method, and I'm totally stealing the HP buff for my inevitable.:smalltongue:

AustontheGreat1

2010-07-23, 07:47 AM

Oslecamo

2010-07-23, 09:51 AM

OK, but I'm not sure what part makes it ignore that? What should I change to fix that?

Earth embrance completely envelops the target, so it should ignore freedom of movement. It's also necessary to keep that tactic viable as FoM comes online at 7th level.

I chose SM V for a reason, the idea was that it the elemental could summon elementals smaller and weaker than itself. I cut it short because V lets you summon one medium elemental or many small ones, but I suppose I will make it scale.

Well, an earth elemental 11/anyting 9 will certainly be stronger than the elder elemental summonable by summon monster IX

Draken

2010-07-23, 10:04 AM

Small recommendation based on personal opinion: Don't make an ability (grapple) viable by making another (Freedom of Movement) entirely useless. Have it so that anyone who has Freedom of Movement up has at least an extra bonus to resist the attacks, +4 is the usual bonus granted by immunity when an ability pierces that immunity.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-23, 11:57 AM

-Remove the no swim penalty. Even melee dudes in D&D have the right to bend physics, let alone arcane animated contructs.
Being made of solid iron? That's just silly. Remember that he has no need to breathe, and can just walk along the bottom.

-Remove the skill penalty. The iron golem's plate is suposed to be a literal second skin. And it already has few skill points and no class skills to represent his inaptitude at those fields.
Do you think it would be balanced to keep the armor, but get rid of the ACP?

-Wasting breath with a regular cooldown instead of per ecounter, wich is kinda of an abstract concept and should be limited to ToB stuff. I sugest 5 rounds like the binder strongest abilities.
See, I'm not a fan of that: besides, it cuts down on bookwork, not having to keep track of how many rounds it's been since you last used the ability.

-Like undeads all construcsts have poor BAB. Give it +1 Str at all levels to represent his physical prowess.
Uhh... no, they don't... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType):smallconfused:

Otherwise, it kinda looks like a one trick pony since most of his abilities are defensive, so I would add the following:
-Intimidate using str.

*facepalm*

-His massive plated body provides cover to smaller nearby allies.
Ooooh, neato.

-Ability to upgrade his fists to exotic materials.
-Ability to integrate weapons inside his body and draw them as a free action?
-Ability to hide stuff inside him (including medium or smaller sized humanoids)?
That's... interesting...:smalleek:

-Rocket punch? With his low low mobility he really needs some long range attack to deal with pesky flying orbwizards and mounted archers. Firing his fists would be cool and profitable. Retrieve them with an attached chain.
Now that's just silly... but I'll think of something along those lines.

On the force golem:
-Constructs don't get good saves or class skills. No exception.
Well, in the force golem entry in the MM, it clearly has good reflex saves and a few class skills... but, I suppose I can change that.
Still, I wanted something to represent that this is a sentient golem who's smarter than most people. And quicker. Oh, and stronger, of course.

-It could use a couple more stat increases.
Righto, boss.

-Two first levels kinda empty. Make it unlock one force power per level instead of all at 3rd level.
I donno... first level gives construct type, which is pretty much as good as undead, and 2nd gives cha-to-AC, which is just good.

Otherwise great job! The golems were a very tough challenge to begin with but you're tackling them quite well!:smallsmile:
Thanks!:smallsmile:

I specially like the ressurection rebuild method, and I'm totally stealing the HP buff for my inevitable.:smalltongue:
Heheh, yeah- it needed something that wouldn't give it +20 hp at first level. I mean, yikes. And it's just not fair to make players use a limited wish to revive it, when it's a freaking machine. We can rebuild him- we're freaking wizards.

Oslecamo

2010-07-23, 01:05 PM

Being made of solid iron? That's just silly. Remember that he has no need to breathe, and can just walk along the bottom.

Untill he reaches the bottom. Throw him into the sea and he'll take several rounds to reach the bottom and then he'll have to walk hours untill he finds the coast.

Again, MAGIC iron. A wizard did it. Not even the earth elemental has a penalty for swimming.

Do you think it would be balanced to keep the armor, but get rid of the ACP?

Certainly. Skillmonkeys deserve nice things.

See, I'm not a fan of that: besides, it cuts down on bookwork, not having to keep track of how many rounds it's been since you last used the ability.

And how do you define an ecounter? What it's in the middle of a war and enemies keep poping up? What if you suspect an invisible enemy is nearby and want to spray a room with gas? X turns cooldown is much more simple.

Uhh... no, they don't... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType):smallconfused:

I have no idea what you're talking about. I always said constructs have medium Bab. Even my inevitable had it before. Move along move along.:smallredface:

Now that's just silly... but I'll think of something along those lines.

A monster class that reaches such an high level needs to have some anti-air trick, either flying himself or some powerfull ranged attack.

Well, in the force golem entry in the MM, it clearly has good reflex saves and a few class skills... but, I suppose I can change that.
Still, I wanted something to represent that this is a sentient golem who's smarter than most people. And quicker. Oh, and stronger, of course.

Your iron golem is an awakened one, remember. And the inevitable is pretty smart, but doesn't get class skills as well.

As for quicker that's for what you have the cha to AC.

I consider the really good ref save a typo.

I donno... first level gives construct type, which is pretty much as good as undead,
It also makes healing a pain. The inevitable gets his chains at level 1. At least give him the force reactive at lv 1. It's not that strong of an ability by itself.

and 2nd gives cha-to-AC, which is just good.

Counter balanced by the fact you don't allow him to wear armor at all (even a wizard can get mythril chainshirt) and it's a MAD class needing str, dex and cha.

We can rebuild him- we're freaking wizards.

Stronger, faster...More buyoant! :smallwink:

Mystic Muse

2010-07-23, 01:05 PM

On the force golem:
-Constructs don't get good saves or class skills. No exception.

Maybe I'm reading the entry on constructs wrong but to me it sounds like mindless constructs don't get class skills. because otherwise they wouldn't get feats either.

Oslecamo

2010-07-23, 01:08 PM

Maybe I'm reading the entry on constructs wrong but to me it sounds like mindless constructs don't get class skills. because otherwise they wouldn't get feats either.

Mindless constructs don't get skill points at all.

Mystic Muse

2010-07-23, 01:10 PM

Mindless constructs don't get skill points at all.

Ah. Missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Draken

2010-07-23, 01:14 PM

You and your golems.

Current project: Anaxim.

Now that is turning out interestingly All the devinity mentions. I am thinking of adding an optional rule to play it as a living construct instead of a normal construct. It is something to think about for the other constructs here.

Mystic Muse

2010-07-23, 01:27 PM

Well, with only average BAB, No good saves, and no skill points, The Iron golem doesn't appeal to me after the first three levels.

MrLich

2010-07-23, 05:13 PM

Hey I'd like to see a Griffon if you get the time. I really like the work you've done so far.

The Tygre

2010-07-27, 09:36 AM

Hey! Just got an idea; how about a valkyrie class, like the ones from Tome of Martial Power?

Frog Dragon

2010-07-27, 11:50 AM

Mezzoloth
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9179/mezzoloth.jpg

HD: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Mezzoloth Body, Yugoloth Magic (Darkness), Fiendish Fury: Tear

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Yugoloth, Spell Resistance, Fiendish Fury: Harm, +1 Str

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Fiendish Fury: Curse, Produce Flame&Cause Fear, +1 Cha

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Fiendish Fury: Vigor, See Invisibility, +1 Str

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Fiendish Fury: Pounce, +1 Cha

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Fiendish Fury: Rejuvenation, Dispel Magic&Deeper Darkness, +1 Str[/table]

Proficiencies
The mezzoloth has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor.

Skill Points: 4+Int
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise , Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Mezzoloth Body
The Mezzoloth loses all previous racial and gains the outsider traits (Darkvision 60ft, no need to eat or sleep). It gains a natural armor bonus equal to it's con modifier, and two claw attacks that deal 1d4+str damage each. It also gains a land speed of 40ft per round.

Ability Bonuses
The Mezzoloth gains a +1 to Str at levels 2, 4 and 6 (Total +3). It also gains a bonus to Cha at levels 3 and 5 (Total +2).

Yugoloth Magic
At the levels in which a spell name is indicated above the Mezzoloth can use it a certain number of times per day as an SLA. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod. Caster level is equal to hit die.
1-Darkness 1/day per HD.
3-Produce Flame and Cause Fear 1/day per 4 HD.
4-See Invisibility 1/day per 2 HD.
6-Dispel Magic 1/day per 5 HD.
At its sixth Mezzoloth level, its Darkness SLA is upgraded to a Deeper Darkness ability, though it can still choose to use Darkness in place of it from the same pool of uses.
In addition, after the mezzoloth has gained the Dispel Magic spell-like ability, and gains its tenth hit die, it can cast Teleport and Cloudkill once per day per 5 HD. In addition, its dispel magic Spell-like ability is upgraded into Greater Dispel Magic.
At its fourteenth HD, it's Teleport SLA is upgraded into Greater Teleport.

Fiendish Fury
A mezzoloth is often angry. They eagerly await for the chance to sink their claws into anything capable of being hurt, as if from some sort of twisted hatred of all things. Indeed, a mezzoloth is defined by hate and anger, and they draw power from it.
At first level, a mezzoloth's anger cannot be quenched. The creature is a veritable bastion of hate and resentment, and due to this, its mind is hard to influence. The mezzoloth gains a +2 bonus to saving throws vs mind affecting abilities.
In addition, times per day equal to 1/2 HD+charisma modifier, the mezzoloth may use any of the abilities below. These abilities all share the same pool of uses, and are activated as a swift action.
Tear: The mezzoloth gains the ability to ignore any damage reduction until the end of its round.
Harm: The mezzoloth gains a bonus to damage equal to its hit dice for all attacks it makes and all damaging spells of spell like abilities it uses until the end of its round.
Curse: The next spell-like ability gained from mezzoloth levels used is granted a +2 bonus to the save DC.
Vigor: The mezzoloth gains a bonus equal to half its HD (max) to any physical ability score until the end of its round.
Pounce: The next charge attack the mezzoloth makes is a pounce, allowing the mezzoloth to make a full attack as a part of the charge.
Rejuvenation: The mezzoloth gains fast healing equal to its HD for a number of rounds equal to 1/3 its HD (round down).

Yugoloth
The Mezzoloth gains a bonus on saves against poison and resistance to acid equal to its HD, and resistance to fire, cold & electricity equal to half HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness, as well as telepathy out to 10' per HD.
It also gains the evil subtype, and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as evil aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Spell Resistance
The Mezzoloth gains SR equal to 11+HD.

Comments
Mezzoloth, Ala Manual of the Planes. Yugoloths needed more love. This was rather straightforward. I just dropped in the Mezzoloth abilities at suitable intervals and yeah. I did change the SLA:s around a bit and dropped the demon summoning, but otherwise this is mainly straight from the book. It has monklike defenses, but unlike the monk, it can attack quite well, and the spell-likes ensure it stays relevant. I think I nailed this down pretty well, but still. PEACH :smallsmile:

As of now, this has gone through rather heavy overhaul. I did the usual of basing half the abilities of a minor detail from the monster description. It no longer has so many SLA:s, and in general, it should be more unique now.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-27, 12:41 PM

BelGareth

2010-07-27, 12:55 PM

Okay... First. WAY too much str, dex and ability bonuses in general. Don't give a +4 in the start.
Also, however, overpowered the stat bonuses are, it only gets that and what it does get is mostly in the front. Also, skills are way too much. The bonus feats are just filler. You need to have more Leonally abilities, less ultrastats, less skills, less frontloading.
Also, three attacks at level one is too much. I've been rained down on this.

Okay, i put the stat bonuses as is per the MM, my thoughts were a PC equivalent Leonal should roughly be equal to or more powerful than a regular one(being out of the MM) Stat bonuses are just out of the box. I can see the three attacks and that's an easy fix, maybe giving only giving both claws at first (because how would a leonal NOT be able to attack with both) and bite later on. Skills are what an outsider is given per MM. Again balance issues with being compared to a regular leonal. They're not BONUS feats, those are just the rgeular ones. so i guess i can omit them.
not sure what frontloading is...
more leonally abilitys...what more can you have it has everything a regular Leonal has.... :(
Thanks for the remarks, but do you think you could give suggestions also instead of saying how everything sucks?

Mystic Muse

2010-07-27, 01:12 PM

Okay, i put the stat bonuses as is per the MM, my thoughts were a PC equivalent Leonal should roughly be equal to or more powerful than a regular one(being out of the MM) Stat bonuses are just out of the box. I can see the three attacks and that's an easy fix, maybe giving only giving both claws at first (because how would a leonal NOT be able to attack with both) and bite later on. Skills are what an outsider is given per MM. Again balance issues with being compared to a regular leonal. They're not BONUS feats, those are just the rgeular ones. so i guess i can omit them.
not sure what frontloading is...
more leonally abilitys...what more can you have it has everything a regular Leonal has.... :(
Thanks for the remarks, but do you think you could give suggestions also instead of saying how everything sucks?

Look at a few of the other monsters we've done first. My Pyroclastic dragon for example only gets +6 to Stength Constitution and Charisma over 18 levels. The other abilities they get mostly make up for it though. Getting 28 Strength, 24 Constitution and 12 Dexterity over 12 levels is a lot and they get other things.

Also, abilities generally work off of HD in this thread. One last criticism is that Polymorph and wall of force at will seem to be a bit much.

I'd give some suggestions but I'm pretty bad at coming up with abilities myself.:smallfrown:

Frog Dragon

2010-07-27, 01:15 PM

Okay, i put the stat bonuses as is per the MM, my thoughts were a PC equivalent Leonal should roughly be equal to or more powerful than a regular one(being out of the MM) Stat bonuses are just out of the box. I can see the three attacks and that's an easy fix, maybe giving only giving both claws at first (because how would a leonal NOT be able to attack with both) and bite later on. Skills are what an outsider is given per MM. Again balance issues with being compared to a regular leonal. They're not BONUS feats, those are just the rgeular ones. so i guess i can omit them.
not sure what frontloading is...
more leonally abilitys...what more can you have it has everything a regular Leonal has.... :(
Thanks for the remarks, but do you think you could give suggestions also instead of saying how everything sucks?
Well, it was a short line of critisism. But. Keep in mind that CR isn't automatically balanced as a PC. CR is the fighting potential (skills don't matter much there), but with PC:s it does. Two claws at level one are fine. You shouldn't just take saves bab and skills from outsider. That is pretty much always unbalanced (ya it's wotc, but wotc is usually unbalanced. Pun-Pun is RAW.)
Anyway, the ábility bonuses need to drop, as per the other monsters here as well as the skills. Maybe to 4+int or 2+int. I'd give it +1 str increases every even level (for a total of +6), and con three con increases, for a total of +3. Maybe a spread out + ones to the mental stats, so you get that too.
Maybe lower the BAB too.
Spread the guardinal traits around, don't give them all at level 1. And no +4 to str as a racial trait. It's wrong.
With that, you might not even need more abilities given that you have spell likes. But yeah, that's what I'd do. As is, this is very, very overpowered.
Edit: Frontloading means that you get too much stuff at levels 1-3.

Oslecamo

2010-07-27, 01:17 PM

Frog Dragon:Hmm, nice work but needs some tweaking.
-DR should be /good, not /magic and please make it half HD as usual.
-Make SLAs scale by level. Save DCs 10+1/2HD+stat as usual and extra uses as it increases HD beyond the class, dispel magic upgrades to greater dispel magic, ect. Remember, the abilities have to stay relevant all to lv20.
-First levels kinda empty. Some of the weaker SLAs at 1st and/or 2nd level wouldn't hurt anyone
-It needs teleport/greater teleport somewhere in there.
-Don't be afraid to give powerfull SLAs at lower levels than a wizard would get it as long as it isn't spammable. Cloudkill as the capstone would probably be fine.
-All good saves and full BAB should be reserved for monsters with some drawback like the phoenix who doesn't have hands. Cut one of the saves.
-It could use a few more stat bonus increases (con or cha).

Okay, i put the stat bonuses as is per the MM, my thoughts were a PC equivalent Leonal should roughly be equal to or more powerful than a regular one(being out of the MM) Stat bonuses are just out of the box.

This already has been discussed plenty of times but I guess it must be done once more. Players have LOTS of advantages over monsters already, mainly:
-PCs get point buy/roll stats, while monsters have a base of just 10 or 11 in everything.
-PCs get a lot more magic gear than monsters.
-PCs have the time to optimize their feats, flaws, skills, ect.
-PCs have a party of equally powerfull characters backing them up.
-Monsters are suposed to last a few rounds. Players are suposed to last an entire campaign.

So no, if you give a PC direct monster stats from the MM you end up with an way overpowered PC.

Thanks for the remarks, but do you think you could give suggestions also instead of saying how everything sucks?

Read the guidelines in the first post of the thread. Look at the other monsters already done. Make the abilities scale by level. Think a moment about balance.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-27, 01:40 PM

Sla's edited. Reflex dropped to poor. However, I don't think it needs more stuff at first level. It gets a respectable will save, natural armor, two claws and barbarian speed already. That is mainly why I didn't give it SLA:s until level three. I quite like it right now.
I would've given it more cha or con, but I can't figure out a way to put it in logically. Maybe +1 to Cha at level 4 and a +1 to Con at level 6?
I gave the sla's a boost, but I think Cloudkill should stay at level 9. It now gets Teleport and Greater Teleport as it advances, in addition to GDM.
I think the first level just seems empty. In reality it's giving you plently of bonuses.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-27, 07:23 PM

Ohkayyyy... I've added an upgrade mechanic to the Iron Golem, as well as taking away a few of the penalties. It's covered in the changelog.

Fixed the force golem too. A couple of abilities to pad the loss of skills & reflex saves, and better ability score bonuses should make it work well.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-29, 02:57 AM

HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+ 0|+ 2| +2 |Desert Body, Marruspawn
2|+2 |+ 0|+ 3| +3 |Marru Wizard-Lord, +1 Int
3|+ 3|+ 1|+3 | +3 |Howl of Healing, Expanded Mind +1
4|+ 4|+ 1|+ 4| + 4|Marru Tactician, +1 Int
5|+ 5|+ 1|+4 | +4 |Mighty Howl, Expanded Mind +2
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. The Marrutact’s class skills (and the key ability for each skills) are Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, & Spellcraft.

Proefeciencies:Simple weapons.

Features
Desert Body:At 1st level a Marrutact loses all racial bonus he had and gains monstruous humanoid traits (basically darkvision 60'). He is a medium monstruous humanoid with base speed 30.

A marrutact gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his wisdom modifier.

Marruspawn: The Marrutact gains regular Marruspawn features, which include resistance to dessication and a bonus to listen checks equal to its HD, resistance to fire equal to 1/2 its HD, and the discriminating hearing ability (ex):
A marruspawn can detect the presence of creatures within 30' simply by the sound of their breathing, heartbeat or movements. This only indicates its presence, not its location: it can take a move action to hone into the creature's direction, and can pinpoint the location of creatures within 5 feet of the marruspawn.

Ability increase:At 2nd & 4th level the Marrutact gains +1 to intelligence, for a total of +2. Also see the expanded mind ability, below.

Marru Wizard Lord: The Marrutact gains spellcasting as a wizard of its level-1, and SR of 11+HD.

Howl of Healing: As a free action once per day per 3 HD (up to 6 times per day at 18 HD) the marrutact may, no more than once per round, loose a regenerative howl that heals all allies within 30 feet a number equal to the charisma modifier (minimum 1) times the HD of the marrutact. Those within 10 feet heal an additional 1 hp per HD of the marrutact.

Expanded Mind: At 3rd level, the marrutact gains a +1 bonus to either charisma or wisdom. This bonus increases to +2 at level 5.

Marru Tactician: The Marrutact can combine his leadership skills and vast intellect, and put them to good use. A number of times per day equal to his wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), the marrutact may expend a move action to make a knowledge check against whatever he may be facing: local for monstrous humanoids, arcane for magical beasts and dragons, Architecture/Engineering for constructs, dungeoneering for aberrations & oozes, the planes for outsiders & elementals, nature for animals & fey, nobility & royalty for humanoids, and geography for giants. The DC of this knowledge check is 15. If he succeeds, all allies within 30 feet gain a +1 bonus to attacks against the creature (or creatures, if there are multiple creatures of the same race). This bonus increases by an additional 1 for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 8th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to saves against the creature's abilities, plus an additional one for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 11th level, the marrutact may instead grant +1d6 damage to attacks against the creature, plus an additional 1d6 for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 14th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to AC against the creature's attacks, plus an additional one for every 10 points he succeeds by.
Starting at 17th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to save DCs against the creature, plus an additional 1 for every 10 points he succeeds by.

Mighty Howl: When using his healing howl, all enemies caught in the radius must succeed on a will save (DC 10+1/2 HD+cha mod) or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to the marrutact's charisma modifier. If the enemy has less than 1/2 the HD the marrutact has, they are instead frightened for that duration.

Comments:
Whoo, anubis-wizards. This is a fun one. He's pretty much just your standard wizard, but with full BAB and better saves and skills, and then the healing howl and dark knowledge tactician ability that totally wasn't ripped off from another base class. In return, he loses a CL. I really just balanced this against the ethergaunt, and I'd say it's less powerful, so if the ethergaunt is good, this one's definitely good.
I wanted to include something on his high charisma and wisdom, so I just made him MAD and gave some bonuses- you can either focus on tactics and natural armor, or the howl. Wisdom's probably a better choice, but the healing howl can get good if you pump charisma, and it'll still be good with low charisma, just for stabilizations.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-29, 02:58 AM

Marrutact
http://www.gonadan.com/dnd/marrutact.jpg

HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+ 0|+ 2| +2 |Desert Body, Marruspawn
2|+2 |+ 0|+ 3| +3 |Marru Wizard-Lord, +1 Int
3|+ 3|+ 1|+3 | +3 |Howl of Healing, Expanded Mind +1
4|+ 4|+ 1|+ 4| + 4|Marru Tactician, +1 Int
5|+ 5|+ 1|+4 | +4 |Mighty Howl, Expanded Mind +2
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. The Marrutact’s class skills (and the key ability for each skills) are Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, & Spellcraft.

Proefeciencies:Simple weapons.

Features
Desert Body:At 1st level a Marrutact loses all racial bonus he had and gains monstruous humanoid traits (basically darkvision 60'). He is a medium monstruous humanoid with base speed 30.

A marrutact gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his wisdom modifier.

Marruspawn: The Marrutact gains regular Marruspawn features, which include resistance to dessication and a bonus to listen checks equal to its HD, resistance to fire equal to 1/2 its HD, and the discriminating hearing ability (ex):
A marruspawn can detect the presence of creatures within 30' simply by the sound of their breathing, heartbeat or movements. This only indicates its presence, not its location: it can take a move action to hone into the creature's direction, and can pinpoint the location of creatures within 5 feet of the marruspawn.

Ability increase:At 2nd & 4th level the Marrutact gains +1 to intelligence, for a total of +2. Also see the expanded mind ability, below.

Marru Wizard Lord: The Marrutact gains spellcasting as a wizard of its level-1, and SR of 11+HD.

Howl of Healing: As a free action once per day per 3 HD (up to 6 times per day at 18 HD) the marrutact may, no more than once per round, loose a regenerative howl that heals all allies within 30 feet a number equal to the charisma modifier (minimum 1) times the HD of the marrutact. Those within 10 feet heal an additional 1 hp per HD of the marrutact.

Expanded Mind: At 3rd level, the marrutact gains a +1 bonus to either charisma or wisdom. This bonus increases to +2 at level 5.

Marru Tactician: The Marrutact can combine his leadership skills and vast intellect, and put them to good use. A number of times per day equal to his wisdom modifier (minimum of 1), the marrutact may expend a move action to make a knowledge check against whatever he may be facing: local for monstrous humanoids, arcane for magical beasts and dragons, Architecture/Engineering for constructs, dungeoneering for aberrations & oozes, the planes for outsiders & elementals, nature for animals & fey, nobility & royalty for humanoids, and geography for giants. The DC of this knowledge check is 15. If he succeeds, all allies within 30 feet gain a +1 bonus to attacks against the creature (or creatures, if there are multiple creatures of the same race). This bonus increases by an additional 1 for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 8th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to saves against the creature's abilities, plus an additional one for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 11th level, the marrutact may instead grant +1d6 damage to attacks against the creature, plus an additional 1d6 for every 10 points the marrutact succeeds by.
Starting at 14th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to AC against the creature's attacks, plus an additional one for every 10 points he succeeds by.
Starting at 17th level, the marrutact may instead grant a +1 bonus to save DCs against the creature, plus an additional 1 for every 10 points he succeeds by.

Mighty Howl: When using his healing howl, all enemies caught in the radius must succeed on a will save (DC 10+1/2 HD+cha mod) or be shaken for a number of rounds equal to the marrutact's charisma modifier. If the enemy has less than 1/2 the HD the marrutact has, they are instead frightened for that duration.

Comments:
Whoo, anubis-wizards. This is a fun one. He's pretty much just your standard wizard, but with full BAB and better saves and skills, and then the healing howl and dark knowledge tactician ability that totally wasn't ripped off from another base class. In return, he loses a CL. I really just balanced this against the ethergaunt, and I'd say it's less powerful, so if the ethergaunt is good, this one's definitely good.
I wanted to include something on his high charisma and wisdom, so I just made him MAD and gave some bonuses- you can either focus on tactics and natural armor, or the howl. Wisdom's probably a better choice, but the healing howl can get good if you pump charisma, and it'll still be good with low charisma, just for stabilizations.

un_known

2010-07-29, 02:57 PM

Has anyone put forward a play version of the Gelatinous Cube? Or any of the various types of Oozes? Just a thought that would be interesting.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-29, 03:11 PM

@Un_Known: That's a job for a better man than me. Oozes are going to be hard.

@BelGareth: Well, since it seems nobody will critique your work, I will... though it is rather vexing that, in each picture, you chose to make the creature that I really, really don't like, as opposed to the creature that I really, really like (Ghaeles are, by far, the coolest celestials.)
...Anyways. >.>

*In general, we're trying to standardize things here: might want to look at other classes and do things the same way as everyone else. There should be a first level ability, say, for the leonal called "body of the lion" or something like that, where he "loses all previous racial traits, gains outsider type, move speed, etc."
Natural armor is usually tied to an ability score- usually constitution modifier.

*Your saves are highly nonstandard: make it either good saves, or poor saves.

*Try to put abilities in order of when they're acquired.

*Creatures usually gain DR or energy resistance equal to their HD/2, or equal to HD if it's really, really high DR or energy resistance. Solid numbers are boring, but DR 4 at level 20 is pretty much worthless. Hell, DR 10 at level 20 is pretty much worthless, unless it's DR 10/-.

*Dead levels suck. For the leonal, it needs something at level 10. Either spread out an ability, or give it a new ability. And a level where the only thing you get is +1 str is pretty boring as well. Also, in general, we like to give stats in increments of +1, as opposed to +2.

*SR is weak. It's generally granted at level 2.

*Try something fun! Is there an ability you think the leonal should have, but he doesn't have? Then give him one! It should help fill up that dead level.

Now, for the separate races:
Leonal:
*Include natural attacks into the racial abilities.

*Try basing things off of HD: make speed increase by 10 every 4 HD, rather than every 4 leonal levels. Here at improved monster classes, we like things that scale by HD.

*Why are you giving the leonal charisma? Generally, it's good to cut down on ability scores, except for the ones that define a race, or if it needs the ability scores to be competent. I'd give a higher con bonus, and cut out the charisma bonus. This is a bruiser, not a face.

Bralani:
*Scale, scale, scale! Make the SLA dailies based off of HD, and definitely scale the whirlwind blast.
*Suspend the SLAs a level, give the resistances/SR earlier.

It's a good start, and outsiders are nice for a first time as they have a lot of juicy abilities to work off of, but it needs a lot of cleaning up formatting and some variety. Add your own touch: look at my entomber, or vrock, or marrutact (which still needs critiquing, everyone!). Certainly look at Hyrudra's Harpy, which is really a great example of making a boring race interesting.
This is more for the leonal than the bralani: maybe, I donno, give it some lion-based abilities, like all lions treat them as friendly, or maybe even transforming into a lion for some scaling strength/dexterity bonuses.

Volthawk

2010-07-29, 03:13 PM

Natural armour's usually based off Con, not Str.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-29, 03:51 PM

Natural armour's usually based off Con, not Str.

...GODDAMMIT. I ALWAYS think it's strength. I DON'T KNOW WHY.:smalleek::smallfurious:

Lyndworm

2010-07-29, 04:06 PM

Undead and Constructs use Strength because they don't have a Constitution score. Is that maybe why you get mixed up?

Gorgondantess

2010-07-29, 09:13 PM

Undead and Constructs use Strength because they don't have a Constitution score. Is that maybe why you get mixed up?

No, no, I was doing that long before I did constructs...:smallsigh:

Hyudra

2010-07-30, 04:18 PM

Hyrudra's Harpy, which is really a great example of making a boring race interesting.

Aw, shucks. :smallsmile: (Even if you spelled my name wrong).

And I agree with the sentiments you listed.

In general, though I don't know that it's explicitly stated in the OP, we're trying to make every level of a given monster class worthwhile and interesting. Dead levels are to be avoided.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-30, 06:30 PM

Planetouched
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG209.jpg
HD: D8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+0|+0|+2 |Planar Body, Planetouched, Gifted
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, UMD.

Proefeciencies: Planetouched are proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armor, and no shields.

Features
Planar Body:At 1st level a Planetouched loses all racial bonuses it had and gains outsider traits, base speed 30 ft. and darkvision 60'.

Planetouched: The Planetouched are a varied lot- each is different, there being hundreds of possible ancestors. They choose 3 of the below abilities. Note that abilities cannot be taken more than once.

*A bonus to three skills equal to 1/2 the planetouched's HD.
*Two energy resistances (from acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic) equal to 1/2 the planetouched's HD.
*DR/material or alignment equal to 1/2 HD. This improves to DR/ material or DR/alignment (planetouched's choice) at 6 HD, and DR/material and alignment at 12 HD. (Note that materials allowed include cold iron, silver, or adamantium.)
*Good or Evil and Lawful or Chaotic subtypes. All attacks are imbued with the alignments for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and similar effects. Spells that have the chosen alignment as a subtype are cast at +1 Caster Level.
*An elemental subtype, including all bonuses and penalties as in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#subtypes), and all melee attacks deal additional elemental damage (acid for earth, cold for cold, fire for fire and electricity for air) equal to 1/2 HD, and all spells with the elemental subtype are cast at +1 CL. Those with water subtypes do not gain a damage bonus.
*Natural armor equal to the planetouched's con modifier, and two claws as natural attacks that deal 1d4+strength modifier damage.
*The Planetouched chooses any domain. He can cast any spell of a level no higher than 1/2 his HD from this domain once per day as an SLA, with a CL equal to his HD. Gaining more spells does not grant more uses, just more options for the single use. DCs are (10+1/2HD+Cha).
At 7 HD, the planetouched may cast the SLAs twice per day; at 15 HD, three times.

Gifted: The planetouched gains +1 to two attributes, or +2 to one attribute.

flabort

2010-07-30, 07:32 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-30, 07:47 PM

missing table tag in Planetouched.

Can the same abilities be selected twice? (Earth subtype x3, for example, to deal 1.5xHD acid damage with each attack) could be abuseable.

And although +1 to any two stats is not a bad or abuseable bonus, it's possibly a little much for a single level class.

I could be wrong about the last one, though.

No, they can't be selected twice. And the gnoll has +4 to strength: I think +2 to stats shouldn't be too bad.
I balanced this against the lesser aasimar: it gains +4 total to stats, a 3rd level spell as an SLA, 3 resistances at 5, and 2 +2 skill bonuses, as well as getting actual class features. This gets outsider type, some more versatility, and scales better, though it loses class features. I think it works.

flabort

2010-07-30, 08:24 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-30, 08:34 PM

Great work, then.
I can see myself playing a melee type with fire subtype, natural armor, and 2 claws. or if I got claws elsewhere, I'd get fire resistance. I'd probably take +2 con...

usefull, versitile, great class.
One last question:
Is there a way to increase uses of domain SLA? once per day isn't much, especially for elemental domains...

Personally, I like it as is. You have a large pool of spells to choose from, but it's only once per day: your versatility greatly increases when you can cast 2 a day.
But I suppose I can work it.

Also, thanks!:smallsmile:

Mystic Muse

2010-07-30, 10:56 PM

Next monster. Not complete but you guys helped me before and I figure you can again.
The Styx dragon Source, Draconomicon.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/azrael_nox/Fantasy%20Creatures/dragon-styx.jpg

class

{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+0 |+2 |Stygian Body, Styx adaptation,Arcane blood
2| +2| +3|+0 |+3 | Keen senses, Stygian Breath
3| +3| +3|+1| +3| Blindsense 60 feet, Strength +1, Constitution +1
4| +4| +4| +1|+4 | Styx Dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
5| +5| +4| +1| +4| Burrow, improved breath weapon, improved tail blades
6| +6| +5|+2 |+5 | Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
7| +7| +5| +2| +5|,Constrict, Improved grapple, diseased tail blades +1 strength, +1 Constitution
8| +8| +6| +2| +6| Growth, Styx dragon SLAs +1 Charisma
9| +9| +6|+3 |+6| improved grab +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
10| +10| +7|+3 |+7 | improved breath, Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
11| +11| +7| +3|+7 | Stygian Scales, Stygian influence.
12| +12| +8| +4|+8 | Frightful presence. Growth, +1 Strength, +1 Constitution,
13| +13| +8| +4| +8|+1 Charisma
14| +14 | +9| +4| +9|Stupefying breath, +1 strength +1 Constitution
15| +15 | +9| +5| +9| Disease ascension
16| +16 | +10| +5| +10| Styx dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
17| +17| +10| +5| +10| Stygian bite +1 Strength, +1 Constitution
18| +18| +11| +6| +11| +1 charisma
19 | +19| +11| +6| +11|Growth, +1 strength, +1 Constitution
20| +20| +12| +6| +12 |Disease perfection.
[/table]

4 Skill points+int per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills: Concentration, climb, jump, spot, listen, appraise, bluff, intimidate, Knowledge(any), spellcraft.

Proficiencies: a Styx dragon isn't proficient with any armor or weapons, besides his own natural weapons

Stygian Body: The Styx dragon loses all other racial bonuses, and gains Dragon traits, Bite 1d8 damage, 2 tail blades for 1d8 damage each, (They are secondary attacks and both are seperate attacks) a 40 foot base land speed which starts increasing by 10 every hit dice after its fourth and medium size. In addition, the Styx dragon gains a swim speed that remains equal to the base land speed (So at tenth level, both its land and swim speed will be 100 feet) The tail blades only add your strength modifier to damage until level 5 at which point it becomes 1 and a half strength modifier

The Styx dragon's arms are vestigial and cannot be used for any purpose.

The Styx dragon also gets a natural armor bonus equal to his Constitution modifier. Whenever the Styx dragon grows one size category, his natural armor increases by a further 1.

Styx Adaptation:Ex The Styx dragon has complete immunity to poisons and diseases, magic or mundane. In addition, the dragon can breathe in water, Is not hampered in combat by being in an aquatic environment, and is immune to the harmful effects of the river Styx and cannot be affected by the disease ascension or disease perfection abilities of other Styx dragons.

Arcane Blood: A Styx dragon receives spells known and spells per day as a bard of same level, but he casts as a sorcerer and takes his spells known from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

If it multiclasses as a bard it's spellcasting increases as a bard.
If it multiclasses as a sorcerer it counts as already having sorcerer casting depending on it's dragon level, as shown on the following table.

{table]Dragon level | Virtual sorcerer casting
1|-
2|1
3|2
4|3
5|4
6|5
7|6
8|6
9|7
10|8
11|8
12|9
13|10
14|10
15|11
16|12
17|12
18|13
[/table]

So for example a dragon 2 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as already having 1 level of sorcerer and gains the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 1 to 2, but not the spell slots and spell knowns from the 1st level of sorcerer He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

A dragon 18 who takes a level of sorcerer would count as having 14 levels of sorcerer(13+1) and gain the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gains when leveling from level 13 to 14, but not the spell slots and spell knowns that a sorcerer gets from level 1 to 13, He would get the familiar ability, but dragon levels wouldn't count for it.

His Caster level remains equal to his full HD when multi-classing to sorcerer

If a dragon takes a casting PRC, it may choose to advance his casting as that of a sorcerer So a dragon 10/loremaster 10 would cast as a 18th level sorcerer (he would still receive spell slots and spells knowns from a bard 10 from the first 10 dragon levels and then the spell slots and spell knowns from a sorcerer 11-18 for the loremaster levels)

Keen Senses:Ex At second level, the Styx dragon's senses become far stronger. The Styx dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet

Stygian Breath:Su At second level the Styx dragon gains a breath weapon. The breath weapon is a 60 foot line dealing 1d6 acid damage/HD, with a reflex save DC of 10+1/2 HD+Constitution modifier for half and takes 1d4 rounds to recharge. The line increases by 10 feet for every extra hit die the dragon gains. In addition, at 5th level the damaging effects of the line cling to enemies. The next round the acid deals half the damage it dealt the previous round. At tenth level it affects them again dealin one quarter the damage it originally dealt.

Styx dragon SLAs: At 2nd level the Styx dragon can cast curse water/bless water 1/day for each HD, At 6th level he can cast Stinking cloud and deeper darkness 1/day for every 2 HD, at 8th level he can cast contagion and control water 1/day for every 3 HD, at 10th he can cast hold monster mind fog and feeblemind 1/day for every 4 HD and at 16th he can cast Horrid wilting and summon monster 8 1/day for every 5 HD. These spells do not affect the dragon's alignment in any way.

Blindsense:Ex At third level the dragon gains Blindsense as the normal ability, range 60 feet.

Burrow At 5th level the Styx dragon gains a burrow speed equal to its base land speed.

Diseased Tail blades:Ex At seventh level anybody who is hit by the tail blades must succeed on a Fortitude save equal to the Dragon's breath weapon save or contract a disease of the player's choice. The player must choose once he gets this ability and the ability cannot be changed after this. There are several diseases on Page 292 of the dungeon master's guide or they can choose Stygian wasting from Draconomicon.

Improved grapple at 7th level the Styx dragon gains the improved grapple feat regardless of whether or not they meet the prerequisites.

Constrict.Ex At seventh level, after the Styx dragon makes a successful grapple check, it can make a constrict attack. The constrict attack deals twice the tail blade's damage as bludgeoning damage.

Growth:At 8th level the Dragon grows to large size. At 12th he grows to huge and at 19th he grows to gargantuan. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

Improved Grab:Ex At 9th level the Styx dragon gains the improved grab extraordinary ability. To use this ability a Styx dragon must hit an enemy that is at least one size category smaller than him with his tail blades attack. The dragon can immediately make a Grapple check and if it's successful can use it's constrict ability in the same turn.

Stygian scales:Ex At 11th level the Styx dragon gains DR/magic and good equal to half its total HD and SR equal to its total HD plus 11

Stygian influence: Ex After swimming through the river Styx for centuries the planes they swim through have affected the dragon's attacks. At 12th level The Dragon can now bypass any form of damage reduction that can be bypassed by any evil alignment as if their weapons were attuned to that alignment.

Frightful Presence:Ex at 12th level the dragon gains frightful presence. ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks or charges. Enemies within a radius of 30 feet × half the dragon's level are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Charisma modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.

Stupefying breath:Su At 14th level the dragon gains an additional breath weapon. The breath is a cone with a radius of 30 feet+5 feet per HD of the dragon and deals 1 intelligence damage for every 4 HD of the dragon. The damage can be halved with an appropriate fortitude save of DC10+Con Mod+Half its HD. The breath weapon recharges in 1d4 rounds.

disease ascension Su: At 15th level, the dragon can now bypass immunity to disease derived from class features (Such as the Paladin's divine health) and any ability not derived from a creature's type. However, Styx dragons cannot affect each other with this ability. In addition, the damage die for both Stygian wasting and devil chills increase by one die size.

Stygian bite At level 17 the Styx Dragon's bite is a weapon to be feared. The Dragon can now channel its Stupefying breath weapon into its bite attack to be used along with it. This still counts as a use of the breath weapon and you must wait 1d4 rounds before using the breath weapon in any way shape or form again. Channeling the breath weapon is a swift action.

Disease perfection Su: At 20th level, the Styx dragon's affinity for disease has reached it's peak. From this point on, the dragon's disease based abilities* affect even those normally immune to them. The dragon now bypasses any immunity derived from type, race, class, or anything else besides being a Styx dragon. Styx dragons are still immune to each other's diseases. In addition, anything that is not normally immune to disease receives no save and the saves on the disease are now equal to the save of the dragon's breath weapon.

*The abilities that disease ascension and perfection apply to are the dragon's tail blades, its SLAs, and any spells it can cast due to the class.

In addition to the features described herein, there are new feats to enhance the Styx dragon's disease based abilities. (Credit to Hyudra)

Extraordinary Disease [Monstrous]

Your disease works in a manner above and beyond that of other creatures of your type.
Prerequisite: A natural weapon that can transmit disease, 13 Con and 6HD, at least one of which must be a level in a monster class.
Benefit: Choose one of the following from the list to enhance your poison:
Pathogen: Each time the victim fails a save against the disease (including the initial save to find if the disease was contracted), the DC is increased by +2.
Rapid Onset: The Disease now has an incubation period of 1d3 rounds. This may be taken a second time, reducing the incubation period to 1d3-2 rounds.
Scourge: The victim must save against the disease twice as often (ie. from every 24 hours to every 12 hours). This option may be taken multiple times, halving the amount of time the victim must save each time it is taken. (from 24 to 12, 12 to 6, 6 to 3, and so on).
Fever: Once the poison enters the victim's system, the victim displays a rapidly progressing fever. From the point the victim fails the saving throw up until the time the disease is removed, the victim is Fatigued. Once the disease is incubated, the victim must make a fortitude save on any given hour or Exhausted, instead. (DC is 10 + ½ creature's HD + creature's Con)
Systemic Shock: When an opponent fails their save against disease, they are immediately sickened. Further, if the disease affects physical stats, the creature must make another fortitude save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds, and if the disease affects mental stats, the creature must make a will save or be confused for 2d3 rounds. The DC for both saves isis 10 + ½ creature's HD + creature's Con.
Once the disease has incubated, the victim must save or be nauseated/confused (again, as appropriate to the disease) on any given hour.
Miasma: After a disease has finished incubating, a contagious vapor begins leaking out of their nose and mouth to taint the air around them. The disease effectively becomes inhalation and contact based, transmitted with the victim themselves as the origin point. Any infections transmitted in this way have the traits of the original disease, but with only a 50% chance the new victim will also show signs of the miasma.
1d3 rounds after a victim afflicted with Miasma dies, the miasma begins consuming their body, filling all adjacent squares with the inhaled version of the disease.
Blight: The disease becomes potent enough to affect targets that are normally immune, as the individual elements in the disease produce byproducts that consume, occlude or taint even inanimate matter or energies. The Disease can now affect any creature that cannot produce the disease itself, including those creatures that are typically immune or that lack constitution scores. The effects of the poison are halved when affecting such opponents, rounding down. Diseases that would deal Con damage to creatures with no Con score deal Cha damage instead.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, choosing a different option each time (or choosing options that specifically allow multiple instances).

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 12:00 AM

Well, swim+burrow is almost as powerful as flight. The general rule of thumb is, if it doesn't have the class abilities to compare to a class of similar level, up the ability increases/framework: for example, I could see the styx dragon having good reflex saves, and even 6+int mod skill points.
Also, it eventually goes beyond a 20 CR creature: give it 20 class levels. Give it a final growth up to gargantuan. You also neglected to give it DR: magic or good starting at lower levels, upgraded to magic and good later on, equal to 1/2 HD, would be nice.
As for the stupefying gas, I'd say 1/2 HD would be nice... ooh, wait, it lets them have a fort save: in that case, make it intelligence damage equal to HD. Seems brutal, but let's look at a single wizard spell, ray of stupidity:
Levels 3-6: average 3.5 intelligence damage
Levels 7-10, can empower: average 5 intelligence damage
Levels 11+, can have an empowered ray of stupidity followed by a quickened: average 8.5 intelligence damage

As you can see, the wizard generally gets a few less damage than the dragon would, but this is balanced by the fact that the wizard uses a ranged touch attack, which is more powerful than a fort save, thus delivering it more reliably. The dragon can use it more, but the wizard has more versatility; the dragon does it in an area, but really, I wasn't pulling out all the shots, what with split ray, easy metamagic, possible incantatrix, and maybe it's a sorcerer and is pulling out greater arcane thesis/spellsurge. So, I think it works. In fact, it's much less powerful than a ray of stupidity wizard: the things it would turn into a vegetable (i.e. stuff with low intelligence) generally have good fort saves.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-31, 05:13 AM

Ooh, Styx Dragon. Gorgon said most that is to be said, but can you give it anything at level 18? It just looks so boring... :smallfrown:

Frog Dragon

2010-07-31, 06:11 AM

Who wants Yugoloth? :smallbiggrin:

Nycaloth
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1969/thisisyournycaloth.jpg

HD: d8

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Nycaloth Body, Wings: Glide, Yugoloth Magic (Darkness)

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Yugoloth, +1 Con, Cursed Wounds: Bleed

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Powerful Build, +1 Str

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Improved Grab, Invisibility, +1 Con, Cursed Wounds: Weaken

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Wings: Flight, +1 Str

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Growth, Deeper Darkness, Cursed Wounds: Drain, +1 Con

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Liftoff, +1 Str

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Greater Invisibility, Cursed Wounds: Stun, +1 Con

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Wings: True Flight +1 Str

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Multi-Armed, Teleport, Cursed Wounds: Savage, +1 Con[/table]

Proficiencies
The nycaloth has proficiency in all simple and martial weapons and light armor and medium armor.

Skill Points: 4+Int
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise , Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device

Nycaloth Body
The Nycaloth loses all previous racial and gains the outsider traits (Darkvision 60ft, no need to eat or sleep). It gains a natural armor bonus equal to it's con modifier, and two claw attacks that deal 1d4+str damage each. It also gains a land speed of 40ft per round.

Ability Bonuses
The Nycaloth gains a +1 to Str at levels 3, 5, 7 and 9 (Total +4). It also gains a bonus to Con at levels 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 (Total +5).

Wings
Glide: A nycaloth can use its wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Nycaloths glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a nycaloth's maneuverability improves, it can't hover while gliding. A nycaloth can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
Flight:When a nycaloth reaches its fifth nycaloth level, it gains a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. A nycaloth can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted.
A nycaloth can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). it can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The nycaloth is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a nycaloth can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, it can remain aloft for extended periods, even if it can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
True Flight: When the nycaloth gains its ninth nycaloth level, it can fly at a speed of 30ft+10ft per 3hd with good maneuverability with no other restrictions.

Yugoloth Magic
At the levels in which a spell name is indicated above the Ycaloth can use it a certain number of times per day as an SLA. Save DCs are 10+1/2HD+Cha mod. Caster level is equal to hit die.
1-Darkness 1/day per HD.
4-Invisibility 1/day per 4 HD
10-Teleport 1/day per 5HD
At its sixth Nycaloth level, its Darkness SLA is upgraded to a Deeper Darkness ability, though it can still choose to use Darkness in place of it from the same pool of uses.
At its eighth Nycaloth level, its Invisibility SLA is upgraded to a Greater Invisibility ability, though it can still choose to use Invisibility in place of it from the same pool of uses.
When the Nycaloth gains its fourteenth HD, its Teleport ability is upgraded to Greater Teleport

Yugoloth
The Nycaloth gains a bonus on saves against poison and resistance to acid equal to its HD, and resistance to fire, cold & electricity equal to half HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness, as well as telepathy out to 10' per HD.
It also gains the evil subtype, and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as evil aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Spell Resistance
The Nycaloth gains SR equal to 11+HD

Cursed Wounds
The Nycaloth is a vile, cruel creature, and its blows leave scars that may not be immediately apparent.
Any time the Nycaloth successfully damages a creature with a physical attack, it may expend a use of Cursed Wounds to inflict a condition on the target. The save DC:s for these abilities are 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier. These abilities are usable times per day equal to 1/2 HD+constitution modifier. The abilities all draw from the same pool of uses.
Bleed: The wound continues to bleed, and the target creature takes one point of damage per round until a DC 15 heal check is made to stop it, or a healing spell is cast upon the target. Every 3 HD after this ability is gained, the ability deals another point of damage per round. This ability grants no saving throw.
Weaken: The wound drains the strength from the victim. The target takes 2 points of strength damage, plus one point per 3 HD after this ability is gained. A successful fortitude save halves the strength damage.
Drain: The wound drains the victim's stamina. The target takes 2 points of constitution damage, plus one point per 3 HD after this ability is gained. A successful fortitude save halves the constitution damage.
Stun: The sheer brutality of the attack stops the target in his tracks, stunning him for one round if he fails his fortitude save.
Savage: The attack wholly trashes the opponent, leaving him stumbling for footing, no longer in a shape to fight. The target must make a fortitude save or be nauseated for a number of rounds equal to half the nycaloth's hit dice. It gets a new fortitude save each round to shake off the effect.

Powerful Build
At third level, the physical stature of nycaloths lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.
Whenever a nycaloth is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the nycaloth is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.
A nycaloth is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature�s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A nycaloth can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject�s size category.

Improved Grab
At level 4, if a nycaloth's claw attack hits a creature it may make a grapple attempt as a free action with no attacks of opportunity.

Growth
At level 6, the nycaloth becomes large (tall). Its powerful build continues to apply.

Liftoff
If the nycaloth gets a hold of a creature at least one size category smaller than itself with a grapple, it can fly while holding the grappled creature.

Multi-Armed
At 10th level, the nycaloth's extra arms become functional. This means they can take the multiweapon fighting feat. If they had two weapon fighting prior to gaining this ability, the two weapon fighting feat changes into multiweapon fighting. Also, they kill things with four arms. Great, no?

Comments
Now the Nycaloth. Again from the manual of the planes. At levels one and two, this is identical to the Mezzoloth, but after that, they start to differentiate. Most of what I did was just copypasta from various sources. It gets resistances and spell likes later than the Mezzoloth, but gains a bunch of extra abilities to compensate. This one also gets extra cha and con.

This has also been overhauled, for less SLA:s, more unique and fun stuff, and generally to be better as a monster class.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 12:22 PM

Planetouched

Not sure the individual choices are balanced against one another, though I like the implementation of options.

I'll make a list, as is my habit:
List of class skills is perhaps a touch too extensive, given the fairly mediocre number of skill points. I'd suggest cutting it down to 12 (I generally see classes have about 3x their skillpoint growth in options).
DR/Material is a little unspecific. A player could theoretically choose something like, say, DR/Uranium. Offer a list of choices, perhaps.
Claw attacks are a pretty weak choice. Perhaps couple them with the natural armor?
The elemental subtype is unclear, because the things you'd normally get for getting a subtype are kind of muddled by the class features. I might suggest doing as I did with the Mephits and being clear about what you get for choosing the individual subtypes.
The damage bonus that comes with the elemental subtype is also unclear. Is it applied to natural attacks only? Weapon damage? Ranged weapons? Wands? Eldritch Blasts? Evocation spells?
The first domain power is a little unclear. Is it just 1/day to use any one of the domain powers? 1/day for each?

I might consider adding an option for spellcasting planetouched, so they aren't a level behind the curve.

And it wouldn't hurt to offer options of good or evil subtypes.

I like it. With just a little tweaking and some of the less clear stuff cleaned up, I'd let a player use it, and I might even use it myself.

The Styx dragon

Sorry, I think I'm going to be more or less hands off when it comes to balancing this one. We're talking full BAB, two good saves, high mobility, three or more natural weapons and spellcasting as a bard. I can understand Oslecamo's stance that they're supposed to be on par with a swordsage as far as tiering and power, but I just can't wrap my head around how to balance them, since they've pretty much got no drawbacks and don't need to rely on party members for anything but damage soak.

Some general feedback:
If he's amphibious, he should probably have a swim speed.
Breath Weapon should be clearer that the stupefying gas is distinct from the acid line, a second breath weapon, not a bonus effect.
The order of ability is confusing. You list abilities it gets at second level after you've listed abilities it gets at third.
Fourth level, you note he gets wings on the table, but don't detail anything in the text.
Stupefying gas is pretty devastating as a regular tool in the hands of an adventurer, considering that even up to later levels, many threats you'll face will have low int. I'm sure there's better examples, but a CR12 purple worm will be defeated instantly by the breath.

To forestall the inevitable question, I'd recommend something along the lines of:
At tenth level, the Stygian Dragon can breath a fine mist bearing the mind fogging effects of the River Styx. The gas covers an area of [details], and afflicted foes take 1d6 damage to Int or Wis, whichever is higher. At 13 HD and every 3 HD after that, the damage increases by +2.
The dragon doesn't feel very distinct until very late in the game. The most interesting aspects (constrict, stupefying breath) don't come until late. I'd consider moving them, improved grab and stuff to earlier levels, and then adding more quality fluff later.

Nycaloth

Seems very underpowered at lower levels. First and second levels aren't interesting at all, and he doesn't offer much in tactical options. I'd suggest adding something interesting and thematic to spice it up and make people give fair consideration to a 1 or 2 level dip in Nycaloth.
Ability Bonuses: Just a nitpick, but convention thus far has the ability bonuses appear last on the table, as such:

[Class Feature 1], [Class Feature 2], Str+1
Another nitpick: It helps if you list the total ability bonuses for taking all levels in the class. (ie. At thirteenth level, the Nycaloth will have a total of...)
Can you explain why he gets the ability bonuses he does? Why does he need full BAB and +6 Str? Why the Cha bonuses?
Part of me wants to restrict powerful build to giants and giantkin, and extreme cases. I may be a little biased in that regard though.
You don't indicate a number of times a day for the SLAs.
Note: You did on the table, but not in the body of text. It's unclear whether the # of times a day specifies any SLA or each SLA.
Flying with grabbed enemies should specify that it works on enemies one size category smaller than the Nycaloth, alongside the weight limit, to prevent some weird stuff from happening.
As with the Stygian Dragon, the interesting and distinctive stuff about the Nycaloth doesn't show up until later. Namely, the wounding ability. Such could show up at an earlier level without breaking the game (say, 4-6ish). Multi-armed, similarly, is a neat and distinctive feature that could show up earlier, rather than compensating for differences from the Mezzo with high stat bonuses.
Don't know that I like that powerful build continues to apply after he grows in size.

Just making text distinct from the rest

If anyone requests, I can go over stuff that I haven't, yet, from the previous page or so. I don't want to offer what may be unwanted criticism, though, when it would involve a lot of work to review everything.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-31, 12:32 PM

Seems very underpowered at lower levels. First and second levels aren't interesting at all, and he doesn't offer much in tactical options. I'd suggest adding something interesting and thematic to spice it up and make people give fair consideration to a 1 or 2 level dip in Nycaloth.
Natural Armor, Claw Attacks, 40ft land speed, DR. Better than the barb and at low levels, the barb is competitive.
Ability Bonuses: Just a nitpick, but convention thus far has the ability bonuses appear last on the table, as such:

[Class Feature 1], [Class Feature 2], Str+1
Another nitpick: It helps if you list the total ability bonuses for taking all levels in the class. (ie. At thirteenth level, the Nycaloth will have a total of...)
Done.
Can you explain why he gets the ability bonuses he does? Why does he need full BAB and +6 Str? Why the Cha bonuses?
Felt appropriate. +6 isn't going to make or break anything. Cha because it helps the SLA:s and the Nycaloth has cha. Oscelamo actually recommended adding cha to my previous Yugoloth.
Part of me wants to restrict powerful build to giants and giantkin, and extreme cases. I may be a little biased in that regard though.
You don't indicate a number of times a day for the SLAs.
Note: You did on the table, but not in the body of text. It's unclear whether the # of times a day specifies any SLA or each SLA.
It's per Sla. Specified.
Flying with grabbed enemies should specify that it works on enemies one size category smaller than the Nycaloth, alongside the weight limit, to prevent some weird stuff from happening.
Done.
As with the Stygian Dragon, the interesting and distinctive stuff about the Nycaloth doesn't show up until later. Namely, the wounding ability. Such could show up at an earlier level without breaking the game (say, 4-6ish). Multi-armed, similarly, is a neat and distinctive feature that could show up earlier, rather than compensating for differences from the Mezzo with high stat bonuses.
Wounding to 5, Grab to 8. Multi Armed to 9, SR to 11. Better?
Don't know that I like that powerful build continues to apply after he grows in size.
The Nycaloth is described as fighting with a huge greataxe. I thought it was appropriate
Responses in blue.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 12:51 PM

Natural Armor, Claw Attacks, 40ft land speed, DR. Better than the barb and at low levels, the barb is competitive.

I disagree:
Natural Armor - Barb can wear medium armor, which mitigates this bonus, so you've probably got +2 over him if you've invested enough stats for 16 con.
Claw Attacks - 1d4+Str and 1d4+Str may not be better than 2d6+1.5*Str. The greatsword arguably works better with power attack, too.
40 foot move - the 1st level barb has this.
DR - 1 DR isn't a gamebreaker at low levels.

Add the fact that the barb has more skill points (enough for 2 more skills kept to maximum) and rage, which is really what makes him competitive. I would place good money on the 2nd level barb to win a fight vs. a 2nd level Nycaloth.

Wounding to 5, Grab to 8. Multi Armed to 9, SR to 11. Better?

Sounds better. It's apparently not edited into the creature, so I can't see the overall layout, but if it needs rebalancing, the extra arms could be restricted from using weapons until a higher level, as it's a pretty sizeable bonus. Look to the Marilith for something to balance against.

Felt appropriate. +6 isn't going to make or break anything. Cha because it helps the SLA:s and the Nycaloth has cha. Oscelamo actually recommended adding cha to my previous Yugoloth.

I dunno. The +6 scales up pretty dramatically when you figure he's making a number of attacks each round: +3 to hit (+15% chance to hit, basically) and a bonus to damage that depends what he's attacking with (Potentially +6 damage on each attack, which adds up). It feels unnecessary, as he's already got SLAs and he's quite a powerhouse with the multi-arms.

As a final note, it really helps if the ability descriptions in the body of text list what level the ability is gained at. It's a pain to keep referring to the table.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-31, 01:02 PM

I gave it medium armor proficiency. Now it just trumps the barb in defense. Keep in mind, Nycaloth can swing a greatsword too.

I added the levels into the text descriptions.

Multiple arms are achievable way before level 9. It's fine.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 01:10 PM

Not sure the individual choices are balanced against one another, though I like the implementation of options.
Yeah, that is a problem... but I was going more for flavor than mechanics with this one.

List of class skills is perhaps a touch too extensive, given the fairly mediocre number of skill points. I'd suggest cutting it down to 12 (I generally see classes have about 3x their skillpoint growth in options).

Planetouched are a versatile lot: I needed something that encompassed tieflings, aasimar, bladelings, anarchs, celadrin, every sort of gen, etc- so it has a big list of class skills. It's not game breaking.

DR/Material is a little unspecific. A player could theoretically choose something like, say, DR/Uranium. Offer a list of choices, perhaps.
Good point- specifying.

Claw attacks are a pretty weak choice. Perhaps couple them with the natural armor?
Righto.

The elemental subtype is unclear, because the things you'd normally get for getting a subtype are kind of muddled by the class features. I might suggest doing as I did with the Mephits and being clear about what you get for choosing the individual subtypes
The damage bonus that comes with the elemental subtype is also unclear. Is it applied to natural attacks only? Weapon damage? Ranged weapons? Wands? Eldritch Blasts? Evocation spells?
Okay, I've rehauled that one.

The first domain power is a little unclear. Is it just 1/day to use any one of the domain powers? 1/day for each?[/list]
Specified! 1/day to use any.

I might consider adding an option for spellcasting planetouched, so they aren't a level behind the curve.
Nahhh. +2 to your spellcasting stat, outsider type, a whole domain worth of spells (and you'll probably choose one where most of the spells aren't on your spell list), energy resistance and DR is worth losing one CL. Oh, and some good skill points and full BAB for one level.

And it wouldn't hurt to offer options of good or evil subtypes.
Ehehm:

*Any two alignment subtypes, and all attacks deal damage as the alignments. Spells cast with either alignment as a subtype are at +1 CL.
However, I'm not sure how to word this better... a little help would be appreciated.

I like it. With just a little tweaking and some of the less clear stuff cleaned up, I'd let a player use it, and I might even use it myself.
Thanks!:smallsmile:

Stupefying gas is pretty devastating as a regular tool in the hands of an adventurer, considering that even up to later levels, many threats you'll face will have low int. I'm sure there's better examples, but a CR12 purple worm will be defeated instantly by the breath.
Did you read my big comparison on ray of stupidity vs. stupefying breath? Stupefying breath offers a fort save. If Kyuubi didn't include that, he needs to. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have massive fort saves. Ray of stupidity, on the other hand, requires a touch attack. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have minuscule touch AC. A 3rd level wizard can defeat half the creatures in the MM in one round- it's sad, really.

If anyone requests, I can go over stuff that I haven't, yet, from the previous page or so. I don't want to offer what may be unwanted criticism, though, when it would involve a lot of work to review everything.
I've been begging people to go over my Marrutact for days!:smalleek:
And my golem updates, those too. Golems are hard...:smallfrown:

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 01:13 PM

Golems and plane touched added to the list. Excellent take on the last one in particular, the original tiefling and aasimar weren't that hot but the author's aproach allows you to make your own custom outsider easily, altough it can probably still use some tweaking.

Gorgondantess:The MarruSpawn looks very good as well...Except wis to nat armor. Con should always be used for natural armor unless it isn't available. Basic defense based on mental stats should be deflection(see gray jester and gloom), not nat armor.

The iron golem could also use something "special" as his capstone but your last upgrade made it enough playable in my opinion.

Kyuubi:You do love the dragons. Hmm, but you seem to be editing it because I don't see any gas ability. Well anyway it should definetely be 20 levels long. Lack of flight isn't that bad when it can swim, burrow and has bard spellcasting to get flight. Like an exotic dragon it will take work but it's a good challenge.

BelGareth:Well, it seems like you're still missing some basics. SLAs shouldn't be at will unless you have a really good reason. Dead levels are a no-no. It needs to remove the racial abilities of the original race. But you're geting there. I'll take polish those myself if I get some free time.

Responses in blue.

Go check out the pit fiend and balor. The early levels of the yugoloths have to keep up with that. Plus rule of fun. Just static numbers don't a good class make. Bigger levels look good tough.

+6 str over 13 levels however is fine even with the full BAB. Heck the pit fiend and Balor both get +10 over 20 levels.

Frog Dragon

2010-07-31, 01:20 PM

Looking at those, I'm going to look into my Yugoloths a bit more. I supercharged skills. They now have 6+int and an expanded skill list. I think they are at similar levels with the Balor now.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 01:44 PM

I gave it medium armor proficiency. Now it just trumps the barb in defense.

It's still very boring at early levels.

Keep in mind, Nycaloth can swing a greatsword too.

Right, but I was referring to claws, as far as the fact that they aren't much of a selling point.

However, I'm not sure how to word this better... a little help would be appreciated.

Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic subtype. All attacks are imbued with that alignment for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and similar effects. Spells that have the chosen alignment as a subtype are cast at +1 Caster Level.

Did you read my big comparison on ray of stupidity vs. stupefying breath? Stupefying breath offers a fort save. If Kyuubi didn't include that, he needs to. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have massive fort saves. Ray of stupidity, on the other hand, requires a touch attack. Creatures with minuscule intelligence tend to have minuscule touch AC. A 3rd level wizard can defeat half the creatures in the MM in one round- it's sad, really.

He didn't note the fort save.

And I wouldn't use any of the six 'Big 5' classes as a balancing point.

I personally like the notion of dealing a fair amount of int or wis damage to a group of creatures (and it is an AoE effect), as a non-damaging tool available at an earlier level. As the Wizard can compound his effects with metamagic, there are meta-breath feats available (One could make arguments for stuff like clinging breath, etc.).

I've been begging people to go over my Marrutact for days!
And my golem updates, those too. Golems are hard...

Alright.

Kyuubi:You do love the dragons. Hmm, but you seem to be editing it because I don't see any gas ability. Well anyway it should definetely be 20 levels long. Lack of flight isn't that bad when it can swim, burrow and has bard spellcasting to get flight. Like an exotic dragon it will take work but it's a good challenge.

Pretty sure he posted it as a work in progress.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 01:46 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 01:55 PM

It's still very boring at early levels.
I've gotta agree with that sentiment. >.>

Good, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic subtype. All attacks are imbued with that alignment for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and similar effects. Spells that have the chosen alignment as a subtype are cast at +1 Caster Level.
Much obliged!

He didn't note the fort save.

And I wouldn't use any of the six 'Big 5' classes as a balancing point.
Well, I don't like something called "OP" when a 2nd level spell can do what it does but better.
...But, yeah, he didn't note the fort save.

I personally like the notion of dealing a fair amount of int or wis damage to a group of creatures (and it is an AoE effect), as a non-damaging tool available at an earlier level. As the Wizard can compound his effects with metamagic, there are meta-breath feats available (One could make arguments for stuff like clinging breath, etc.).
DM: "You spray your breath at the big monster, dealing 5 wisdom damage!... So, his will save drops by two points. Joe the horribly underleveled wizard, what do you do?"
Joe: "I cast ray of enfeeblement. Now all of the creature's attacks hit 10% less often and do two less damage!"
Frontline fighter: "Thanks, horribly underleveled wizard!"
Styx dragon player: *beats head against desk for wasting his standard action*
If you allow a fort save for that, it gets even worse. I personally prefer keeping the intelligence damage equal to HD, and just giving it a fort save: anything seriously threatened by the attack turning them into a vegetable generally has a high fort save. Those with low fort saves generally have a high intelligence. Everyone's happy.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 02:02 PM

I liked the idea of the marrutact as something that's entirely mentally reliant. It doesn't make logical sense, but it makes thematic sense. I'd like to keep the wis to natural armor, if that's okay with you.

Well I went to check some of the older monsters and the succubbus has cha to nat armor so I guess it's fine.

However I must ask you why wis. It is an arcane caster after all. It should at least be based on Cha or Int.

Anyway, updated the mindflayer to have nat armor based on int or cha, wichever is higher, and increased it's Bab to medium since it seemed like it could use a boost.

Well, there's the perfect magic immunity: it's not a big boost in power, but it certainly makes the last level worth taking.

You must remember that levels should be increasing in power. Is the last level really worth taking compared to, let's say, dipping barbarian for pounce? Anything from ToB to get a bunch of maneuvers?

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 02:06 PM

Well I went to check some of the older monsters and the succubbus has cha to nat armor so I guess it's fine.

However I must ask you why wis. It is an arcane caster after all. It should at least be based on Cha or Int.
Because the marrutact in the MM had something like 18 or 19 wisdom, and I wanted to give that a use. I wanted to make it MAD as a balancing agent.

Anyway, updated the mindflayer to have nat armor based on int or cha, wichever is higher, and increased it's Bab to medium since it seemed like it could use a boost.
Wow, cool. It's almost worth taking now.:smalltongue:

You must remember that levels should be increasing in power. Is the last level really worth taking compared to, let's say, dipping barbarian for pounce? Anything from ToB to get a bunch of maneuvers?

Hmmm...
Yes. Yes, it is. You go from immunity to up to 6th level spells to immunity to all spells. Immunity to 6th level spells is, eh, nice, come endgame. Immunity to all spells is friggin amazing. And remember, this isn't a 20th level capstone, this is a 13th level capstone: barbarian and warblade can always be taken later.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 02:15 PM

Because the marrutact in the MM had something like 18 or 19 wisdom, and I wanted to give that a use. I wanted to make it MAD as a balancing agent.

Hmm well. Wizards aren't suposed to get that much AC anyway. Ok keep it wis based then.

Wow, cool. It's almost worth taking now.:smalltongue:

Yeah, the mindflayer seems kinda underpowered in restrospective now. Sugestions to make "it worth it"? Full BaB and str bonus so it can grapple properly? Or focus more on the spellcasting side? Allow it to grapple/cast at the same time?:smallsmile:

Hmmm...
Yes. Yes, it is. You go from immunity to up to 6th level spells to immunity to all spells that allow SR Immunity to 6th level spells is, eh, nice, come endgame. Immunity to all spells that allow SR is friggin amazinggood but not that impressive.

See that's the key part. It only protects you from SR:yes stuff.

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 02:26 PM

Yeah, the mindflayer seems kinda underpowered in restrospective now. Sugestions to make "it worth it"? Full BaB and str bonus so it can grapple properly? Or focus more on the spellcasting side? Allow it to grapple/cast at the same time?:smallsmile:
Personally, I hate it when people focus on the grappling/extracting side of the mindflayer. Mindflayers DO NOT run into battle and overpower people: mindflayers are manipulators. They use their charms and mental abilities to lure people close, and then go in for the kill... or at least stun them with their mind blast.
Also, psionic illithids are tenmillion times cooler than "buckets of SLA" illithids.
...Mind if I take a crack at it?:smallbiggrin:

See that's the key part. It only protects you from SR:yes stuff.
Which is most spells.

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

That opens up a whole can o' worms- most spells are SR: no for a reason. For example, would this work on a grease spell? If yes, how about a summoned monster? I understand stuff like orb of fire, but would it work on, say, a wall of thorns? Where do you draw the line?
What I think I'll do is keep the normal magic immunity... then have ranged touch attacks deflect back at the caster plus spell turning.:smallbiggrin:

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 02:27 PM

Iron Golem

Nitpick - I really prefer it when people list when the ability is earned, in the ability descriptions. Saves a lot of back & forth checking of the table.
List tag in the spoiler detailing construct traits is missing from the start.
"Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed." - as a PC, it's almost guaranteed to have an intelligence score. Is this needed?
The fire damage healing the golem is a little odd, since as far as I can tell, he doesn't gain immunity to it? So he takes 3 and heals 1? Putting an 'instead' in the text would clarify matters.
Minor nitpick - Indomitable is already an ability name for Stone Giant. I like the ability though.
Wrist Razors is unexciting as a class feature, the first time you get it.
In the text of Wrist Razors, you write "A subsequent applications" - making it unclear whether you meant 'all subsequent applications' or 'a subsequent application'.
Under Grappling Hook: "If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square" - what decides this?
More on Grappling Hook: I'm not sure I buy the constrict thing for the upgraded grappling hook. What if...
It extended range?
It let the golem pull down objects, walls or doors with a strength check?
Spiked chain for hurtiness?
Wristbow: Just a suggestion, but I like the mental image of a really big golem carrying a ballista around. An upgrade option to increase wristbow size, maybe?
Voicebox doesn't really sell me, as compared to expanded attack options. Bluff & Diplomacy bonuses don't really work either, on a character that's almost certainly not going to be the party's face.
Not sure I like wasting breath as a free action, as it's liable to confuse turn order and action order.

Speaking in terms of balance, I think it's mostly fair. I'm trying to figure out the armor bonus in my head and not entirely succeeding, leaving me to wonder if he's too durable considering the damage output he can put out.

Such would be fine if he had another drawback (like, he can't run), but I dunno. I just can't help but wonder if a steel golem of equivalent level wouldn't just kick a given Giant's (of any type's) rear.

Either way: Woo, Worker 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYndO0Cb4KY)!
http://i29.tinypic.com/25q7nlg.gif

But that however would make a great capstone. Give the iron golem "true" magic immunity at 13th level like it had in 3.0. Spells with SR:yes automatically fail and SR:no spells must now roll for SR as normal.

I dunno about that. Maybe as a "at 20 HD" (or 16, or something) bonus. As it stands, it covers a lot of weaknesses, and lead feet pretty much keeps the golem from being hampered. Anything else (Force cage) is up to the player to cover with WBL, ingenuity or reliance on teammates.

The ability works nicely as is. It forces casters to find workarounds.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 02:50 PM

Personally, I hate it when people focus on the grappling/extracting side of the mindflayer. Mindflayers DO NOT run into battle and overpower people: mindflayers are manipulators. They use their charms and mental abilities to lure people close, and then go in for the kill... or at least stun them with their mind blast.

But..Tentacles! They need some love!:smallfrown:

Altough yeah, the current mind flayer could use some more battlefield control. Perhaps more skill points. They're suposed to be pretty resourcesfull indeed.

Also, psionic illithids are tenmillion times cooler than "buckets of SLA" illithids.
...Mind if I take a crack at it?:smallbiggrin:

I do mind. The psionic illithid from PsiHB is ba-rroken as it is (excellent scores and casts psion of higher level than CR? Yeah right...).

For a balanced version you could just as well take one level of mind flayer and then put psion levels on top. There, psionic illithid done whitout need of a whole new class.

Which is most spells.

Doesn't mean spellcasters actualy take them. Every spellcaster will take care to include some SR:No spells under his belt. On the other hand no sane caster will take every blast evocation spell.

That opens up a whole can o' worms- most spells are SR: no for a reason. For example, would this work on a grease spell? If yes, how about a summoned monster? I understand stuff like orb of fire, but would it work on, say, a wall of thorns? Where do you draw the line?

Then we get "true" magic immunity like I said, where the golem tramples over magic obstacless and fake creatures shatter when they try to attack it.:smallcool:

What I think I'll do is keep the normal magic immunity... then have ranged touch attacks deflect back at the caster plus spell turning.:smallbiggrin:

Well that would work too.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 02:55 PM

Nitpick - I really prefer it when people list when the ability is earned, in the ability descriptions. Saves a lot of back & forth checking of the table.
List tag in the spoiler detailing construct traits is missing from the start.
"Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed." - as a PC, it's almost guaranteed to have an intelligence score. Is this needed?
The fire damage healing the golem is a little odd, since as far as I can tell, he doesn't gain immunity to it? So he takes 3 and heals 1? Putting an 'instead' in the text would clarify matters.
Minor nitpick - Indomitable is already an ability name for Stone Giant. I like the ability though.
Wrist Razors is unexciting as a class feature, the first time you get it.
In the text of Wrist Razors, you write "A subsequent applications" - making it unclear whether you meant 'all subsequent applications' or 'a subsequent application'.
Under Grappling Hook: "If successful, the foe is dragged into the Golem's square or the golem is dragged to the foe's square" - what decides this?
More on Grappling Hook: I'm not sure I buy the constrict thing for the upgraded grappling hook. What if...
It extended range?
It let the golem pull down objects, walls or doors with a strength check?
Spiked chain for hurtiness?
Wristbow: Just a suggestion, but I like the mental image of a really big golem carrying a ballista around. An upgrade option to increase wristbow size, maybe?
Voicebox doesn't really sell me, as compared to expanded attack options. Bluff & Diplomacy bonuses don't really work either, on a character that's almost certainly not going to be the party's face.
Not sure I like wasting breath as a free action, as it's liable to confuse turn order and action order.
Fixed, except for indomitable, grappling hook and voicebox: I happen to like those as is. Voicebox is mainly flavor.

Speaking in terms of balance, I think it's mostly fair. I'm trying to figure out the armor bonus in my head and not entirely succeeding, leaving me to wonder if he's too durable considering the damage output he can put out.
Okay. Let's say we have a character who put an 18 in strength, and all of their stat increases were put into strength. At level 10, an iron golem gains +9 AC from metal bound, and +9 from natural armor, for a total of +18. Meanwhile, a fire giant who put 18 into con would have +10 natural armor, and their full plate would be 1 AC less than the iron golem's metal bound. Meanwhile, their HP would be much, much higher, which balances out with the iron golem's immunities.

Such would be fine if he had another drawback (like, he can't run), but I dunno. I just can't help but wonder if a steel golem of equivalent level wouldn't just kick a given Giant's (of any type's) rear.
That's a good question... in the end, the giants can take more abuse, having better saves and HP, but the iron golem just won't take as much abuse, having their immunities and slightly higher AC, as well as DR. The giants are also a lot more versatile, and grow to larger sizes, while the iron golem... still has his immunities, which are pretty much going strong (I mean, come on, a good will save or suck will destroy the fire giant). I think in a head to head battle, the fire giant would win... but the iron golem is more powerful, in that it can actually go head to head with a caster.
I added in can't run as well, though: that's perfectly reasonable.

But..Tentacles! They need some love!:smallfrown: I love the tentacles. I adore the tentacles- just look at my avatar. I love the tentacles more than you can fathom.
I just don't use them. As an illithid, you should have better things to do than shove people to the ground and eat out their brains.

I do mind. The psionic illithid from PsiHB is ba-rroken as it is. Otherwise you could just as well take one level of mind flayer and then put psion levels on top. There, psionic illithid done whitout need of a whole new class.
You don't have to include the 9th level manifesting in the 8 CR creature... I'm more wanting to make it like an ethergaunt, but psionic. Would that be a problem?

Machiavellian

2010-07-31, 03:01 PM

I adore this!

There are a few monster Classes I'd want to see, If you have time:

Pit Fiends (Seriously? They have Astral Devas, but not Pit Fiends???)
Balors (see above)
Atopal (A seriously awesome epic monster that seems to be forgotten in everyone's mind...)
Beholder (With Mind Flayer already done, why was the Beholder left behind?)
Scorrow [Drow Scorpion thing akin to Drider] (Just awesome....)

Thanks in advance!

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 03:06 PM

Pit Fiends (Seriously? They have Astral Devas, but not Pit Fiends???)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7976670&postcount=80

Balors (see above)
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7967157&postcount=58

Atopal (A seriously awesome epic monster that seems to be forgotten in everyone's mind...)
It hasn't been forgotten, at all. Somebody's working on it. But, as you said, it's epic: it takes time.

Beholder (With Mind Flayer already done, why was the Beholder left behind?)
It wasn't:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8501338&postcount=416
Also because beholders are stupid and ugly and they cheat at cards, it should've not been made. And did I say they're stupid? Coz they're pretty damn stupid.

Scorrow [Drow Scorpion thing akin to Drider] (Just awesome....)
Never even heard of that... but this might work for you:http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8885793&postcount=839
Maybe you could just convince your DM to let you multiclass between scorpionfolk and drider.:smalltongue:

Come on, mate, we've made all but one of the creatures you're asking for.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 03:07 PM

Okay. Let's say we have a character who put an 18 in strength, and all of their stat increases were put into strength. At level 10, an iron golem gains +9 AC from metal bound, and +9 from natural armor, for a total of +18. Meanwhile, a fire giant who put 18 into con would have +10 natural armor, and their full plate would be 1 AC less than the iron golem's metal bound. Meanwhile, their HP would be much, much higher, which balances out with the iron golem's immunities.

Alright. Good interpretation.

I'll look at Force Golem at some point soon.

demidracolich

2010-07-31, 03:31 PM

For the styx dragon, in the beginning it still says it has claw attacks. A styx dragon does not get claw attacks, it has two tail blades that do damage as claws one size catergory bigger. Also copy paster error because it still has pyroclastic scales.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 03:33 PM

I think in a head to head battle, the fire giant would win... but the iron golem is more powerful, in that it can actually go head to head with a caster.

Not exactly. The giants have better tools to attack at range and are faster. The golem can shrug off most special attacks thrown at him, but he still needs to reach the fast flying wizard.

I love the tentacles. I adore the tentacles- just look at my avatar. I love the tentacles more than you can fathom.
I just don't use them. As an illithid, you should have better things to do than shove people to the ground and eat out their brains.

Several medias show the mindflayer going straight for the brains, using their psionic powers to back them up. They're suposed to love the gray matter, particularly of exotic/smart/creative/wise creatures. Lords of madness say a mind flayer needs one brain per month, but will gladly eat more if there's prey avaiable.

You don't have to include the 9th level manifesting in the 8 CR creature... I'm more wanting to make it like an ethergaunt, but psionic. Would that be a problem?

...Fine, if you like it so much, make the psionic mind flayer and I'll add it. You've done plenty of good work here so I'll trust you.

However I'll still be working on the original mind flayer since there needs to be love for hungry illithilds!

Machiavellian:Check the first page. There's two indexes of creatures already done here and their links, one by date of adition and the other by alphabetical order.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 03:37 PM

Not exactly. The giants have better tools to attack at range and are faster. The golem can shrug off most special attacks thrown at him, but he still needs to reach the fast flying wizard.
Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?

Several medias show the mindflayer going straight for the brains, using their psionic powers to back them up. They're suposed to love the gray matter, particularly of exotic/smart/creative/wise creatures. Lords of madness say a mind flayer needs one brain per month, but will gladly eat more if there's prey avaiable.
Well those medias are stupid. I'm not talking about whether the mindflayer goes for brains at all- they certainly do- I'm talking about how. They'd rather enslave the person than tackle them to the ground in order to get to the brain.

...Fine, if you like it so much, make the psionic mind flayer and I'll add it. You've done plenty of good work here so I'll trust you.

However I'll still be working on the original mind flayer since there needs to be love for hungry illithilds!
That works for me. I'll also include an ulitharid expansion.
So, I make the psionic illithid, you make the SLA illithid. The SLA illithid needs their brain-extracty-stuff to back them up, the psionic illithid doesn't. It's all good.:smallcool:

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 04:04 PM

Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?

Basic attack with 600 foot range. Bigger sizes also help makes him basically immune to several spells.

Well those medias are stupid. I'm not talking about whether the mindflayer goes for brains at all- they certainly do- I'm talking about how. They'd rather enslave the person than tackle them to the ground in order to get to the brain.

Nah, Lord of Madness states thaty they make raids just for feeding.

Speaking of wich, Mind flayer updated again, major changes are:
-A couple more class skills.
-Int and Cha bonus at all levels.
-Mental stats to attacks with tentacles.
-Charm person added to minor psionics.
-Ability to attack and cast/manifest at the same time.

Would apreciate comments about the above. In particularly if +8 to int and Cha is too much or not. The giants do get +1str and +1Cha in all levels.

That works for me. I'll also include an ulitharid expansion.

Ah, good catch, I'll do that one as a Prc.

So, I make the psionic illithid, you make the SLA illithid. The SLA illithid needs their brain-extracty-stuff to back them up, the psionic illithid doesn't. It's all good.:smallcool:

The SLA illithlid still gets:
-Plane Shift and astral projection at lv8.
-Stacking with wizard casting wich is superior to psionic manifesting.

So don't understimate the original mind flayer, his tentacles aren't his only tool. :smallamused:

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 04:11 PM

Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?

Setting giant rocks on fire and throwing them works. If the wizard's flying, all the better, since a higher level Fire Giant can Swat them out of the air, forcing them to keep to the ground.

Teleportation and invisibility can be covered with standard purchases, as your typical melee fighter will do.

It's still not the fairest of fights, but nobody except another major caster is going to reliably win against a major caster.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 04:52 PM

Ulitharid(prc)
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/lom_gallery/88147.jpg
Prerequisites

To become an Ulitharid a player must have taken at least 1 levels of the Mind Flayer class and have at least 11 ranks in concenration.

HD:d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Superior Body, Growth, Ultra Psionics, +1 Con, Alien Mind
2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3| Horror grasp, Psionic Genius, +1 Str
3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Alien Hide, Master Psionics, +1 Con
4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Deep Analysis, Supreme Psionics, +1 Str

[/table]

Skills:4+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level.The mind flayer’s class skills (and the key ability for each
skills) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Hide(Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Use Magic device (Cha) and Spot (Wis).

Proficiencies: An ulitharid gains no proficiencies

Features:

Superior body:Unlike other monster classes, the Ulitharid doesn't lose its racial ability modifiers. His telepathy range doubles.

Levels of Ulitharid also stack with caster/manifester classes like mindflayer levels did.

Growth: The Ulitharid grows one size category.

Ultra psionics: The Ulitharid can now use Dimension door as a SLA as a free action 1/day for each HD it has, but no more than once per turn.

In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 3 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier (wichever is higher).

Alien Mind:For each level of this prestige class the Ulitharid gains a permanent +1 to his Int or Cha scores.

Ability increase: the Ulitharid gains +1 Con at 1st and 3rd levels and +1 Str at 2nd and 4th levels of this class.

Horror Grasp: The Ulitharid now ignores freedom of movement effects when grappling with his tentacles and can grapple oponents of any size.

Psionic Genius:The Ulitharid can now use Mass Sugestion as a SLA 1/day for each 2HD it has.

In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 3 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).

Alien Hide:the Ulitharid gains a bonus to his nat armor equal to 1/3 his HD, stacking with the Mind Flayer class nat armor, and his total nat armor now applies to uncorporeal attacks as well.

Master Psionics: The Ulitharid can now use dominate monster as a SLA 1/day for each 3HD it has.

In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 4 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).

Deep Analyzis:Whenever a creature is damaged by the Ulitharid's tentacle attack it takes a -1 penalty to his saves against any following attack from that Ulitharid attack for 1 hour. Multiple tentacle attacks stack.

In adition, the Ulitharid can ignore mind-affecting immunity from any creature hit by his tentacle attacks, but those creatures still gain a +10 on saves against mind affecting effects from the Ulitharid. Penalty to saves from the despair ability applies tough.

Supreme Psionics:The Ulitharid can choose any two spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use each as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 6 HD it has. If a chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).

Comments:

The Ulitharid is the bigger, nastier cousin of the mind flayer. Bigger size makes grappling easier, and the ulitharid then can add spells and/or powers of his choice to his SLA reportoire. In adition he gains the ability to bypass freedom of movement and mind-affecting immunity and gets yet more rewards for puting his tentacles to work. And some extra AC.

If you liked the mind flayer class, then the Ulitharid offers a powerfull option to expand his powers.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 04:53 PM

Imp

http://i28.tinypic.com/2yxkw7n.jpg

HD:d6
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+0 |+ 2| +0| Body of Mischief, Poison Sting, Ominous Form
2|+ 2|+0 |+ 3| +0| Devil, Hell Skin, Dark Chicanery, Forked Tongue, Leathery Wings [/table]

Skills:6+int modifier per level, Class skills are Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge(any), Move Silently, Listen, Search, Sense motive, Spot, Use Magic Device.

Proficiencies: The Imp is proficient with its own natural weapons.

Features:

Body of Mischief: The Imp loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basicaly dark vision 60 foots). Imps are tiny outsiders with a base speed of 20 feet and a natural Sting attack that delivers 1d4+Str damage and an injected poison, as described below. The Imp gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus.

Poison Sting: Starting at first level, whenever an Imp that successfully strikes a foe with a sting attack, the struck foe must make a Fortitude save (DC is 10 + 1/2 Imp's HD + Imp's Con) or be poisoned. The initial damage is 1d4 Dex, with the secondary damage being 1d4 Dex.

The poison grows more virulent as the Imp increases in HD. At 2HD it increases to an initial damage of 1d4 dex, with secondary damage of 1d4+1 dex. At 4HD it increases to 1d4 dex with secondary damage of 2d4 dex.

Imps may change the poison they bear within their tails with a painful process: They must intentionally inject themselves with a poison. The poison must be deliverable through injury and involve ability damage. This process overrides their natural immunity and requires the Imp bear the full effects of the poison (no save permitted) to be successful. There is a 50% chance their bodies will take to the new poison and their sting attack will deliver the new poison thereafter. In the event of failure, the imp may elect to repeat the process with a fresh dose at any time.

Ominous Form: A first level imp can assume the form of creatures of ill omen, to better observe his quarry and to attack them in creative and frightening ways. Imps can assume an alternate form as a standard action once a day, with an additional daily use for every 2 HD it has, but these forms are restricted to Monstrous Spiders (Small or Medium), Ravens, Rats and Boars.

This ability continues to improve as the Imp gains HD:
At 6HD, the Imp can change form with enough skill that any equipment they bear is adapted to fit their new shape, as opposed to simply falling to the ground. Alternately, the Imp may elect to have equipment fade from view, while remaining on the Imp's person, to better hide its identity or to better manage equipment that their assumed form cannot bear (such as gloves on a raven).

At 12HD, the Imp can assume the form of a large Monstrous Spider or a Dire Boar.

At 18HD, the Imp can assume the form of a huge Monstrous Spider or a Dire Boar advanced to huge size with +6 Str and +6 Con.
Devil: At second level, the Imp becomes immune to poison and gains a resistance to fire equal to its HD, with resistance to acid and cold equal to half its HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness. Imps have telepathy out to 40 feet, which extends an additional 10 feet for each HD after the second.

Imps of second level gain the evil and lawful subtypes, and their natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawful aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Hell skin: The Imp gains DR/good equal to half its HD and SR=11+HD.

Dark Chicanery: Imps practice dark talents to better keep out of the path of vigilant paladins, to see those arcane diagrams that amateur diabolists inevitably use to keep them imprisoned and to find prime targets to lead astray. A second level Imp can use Detect Good and Detect Magic 1/hour for every HD it has, and Invisibility 1/day for every two HD it has.
The Imp's spell-like abilities continue to improve:

At 9HD, the Imp can spend two uses of its Invisibility ability to effectively cloak itself in Greater Invisibility.

At 15HD, the Imp is so capable with its Detect Good ability that it effectively has Blindsense 30' for the purposes of detecting good creatures. The detection effect persists indefinitely, as does Detect Magic.
Forked Tongue: Imps are often the go-to agents to the prime material plane, and strive to corrupt and manipulate novice summoners and callow mortals. To better facilitate this, Imps of second level or higher are under a constant Tongues effect, as an extraordinary ability, allowing them to speak any language they require.

An Imp of second level can use Suggestion as an SLA once a day, with an additional use for every five HD it has (DC = 10 + 1/2 Imp HD + Cha). However, when an Imp uses Suggestion or Diplomacy to influence a creature to perform an action that moves their alignment towards evil (or to further depths of evil, for those who already have the evil alignment), the Imp gains another use of Suggestion for the day. The number of bonus 'Suggestion' effects an Imp accumulates in a single day cannot exceed half the number of daily uses plus one. (An Imp that can use Suggestion 2/day could gain up to two bonus uses).

Leathery Wings: Imps of second level or higher can use their natural wings to transport themselves about the battlefield. The imp may fly (10' per HD to a maximum of 50', perfect maneuverability), but has the restriction of having to start and end its turns on solid ground to do so.

At fifth level, the Imp's wings are strong enough for it to stay aloft, and it loses the restriction.
Changelog:
August 1st, 2010:
Changed from d8 to d6 HD.
Removed Hide as a class skill
Poison sting changed from 1d4 initial and 2d4 secondary to be 1d4 secondary. Scales up quickly.
Moved the alternate form option out of Dark Chicanery. It's now named 'Ominous Form' and remains a first level option. The other spell-likes are second level options, now.
Alternate form is now 1/day + 1 use for every 2 HD. Invisibility is 1/day for every 2 HD.

Niezck

2010-07-31, 04:55 PM

@Oslecamo: Just a minor thing, since I'm far from able to PEACH with any sort of accuracy. You didn't say how often it can use Dominate Monster per day.

Mystic Muse

2010-07-31, 06:29 PM

So, should I give the Styx dragon the same growth rate as the red?

Yeah, there were a few copy paste errors. Sorry about those. I thought I proofread the thing better than that. Changing improved grab and such to lower levels now.

EDIT: Should I make the tail blades eventually give its enemies a stronger disease than stygian wasting? And did I overload 7th level a bit too much?

Edit 2: electric bugaloo: Do all dragons start out medium sized? I Ask because somebody requested the black dragon but they normally start out as tiny sized.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 07:39 PM

Edit 2: electric bugaloo: Do all dragons start out medium sized? I Ask because somebody requested the black dragon but they normally start out as tiny sized.

As a rule of convenience yes. Starting as tiny raises a lot of playing problems because a tiny creature works in a much diferent way than a medium or bigger one. So if you start at 1st level you can't invest in "brute" resources. Then you would need to put two growths on the first few levels, and then your "tiny" stuff that you invested so far to survive is now useless. Taking monster levels shouldn't invalidate older strategies.

Also, tiny by itself is a major advantage if used properly (+2 AC, +8 hide), and the dragon's first level is pretty overloaded as it is.

Speaking of wich, the Sygian dragon should grow at the following rate:

lv8-large
lv12-huge
lv19-Gargantuan.

Stygian wasting is fine since it's DC escales with the dragon and anyway diseases take their time to work so it isn't that usefull unless it's mummy rot.

And yes 7th level kinda overloaded. It should only grow to large at 8th level anyway.

As for the int damage breath I don't see any problem making it work lie the original monster. Fort saves are pretty high on most monsters and those with lower fort usually have excellent int. Just make sure you give it at higher levels of the class.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 07:44 PM

With your thoughts on tiny size, what's your take on my Imp, Oslecamo?

*.*.*.*

2010-07-31, 07:48 PM

Anyone mind doing the Golothoma(Elder evils Pg.118)?

Btw, love the topic people~

Mystic Muse

2010-07-31, 08:08 PM

I gave the Styx dragon an ability that I thought fit thematically (Called Stygian influence. I'm not sure where to put it though so I put it where Stygian scales is right now). I'll think of a few more later but right now I'm off to Iron man 2 (Never seen it)

I also edited the SLA entry to state that the SLAs don't effect the dragon's alignment. I'm not sure whether or not they normally do so I figured I should put it in to be safe.

If anybody has any good ideas for an ability feel free to mention it.

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 08:09 PM

With your thoughts on tiny size, what's your take on my Imp, Oslecamo?

Kinda still thinking about it. The 1st level may be too loaded. Tiny size is excellent for a skirmisher. That's why damn cats are so strong. 20 foot base speed kinda offsets that tough.

I notice you make the poison at will. I would sugest you to do it as the other poison creatures so far that have a limited amount of poison per day.

Alternate form on top of the rest on the 1st level is definetely too much with all of the above. But the 2nd level is kinda too loaded as well. DR, extra SLAs and flight. At least make it a limited number of transformations per day. Monstruous spider alone unlocks climbing and web.

Invisibility 1/hour at 1st level is definetely wrong. Stuff is very fragile at those levels, and pretty much nothing has defenses against invisibility. You can easily sneak around and backstab people at your leisure.

So overall:
-Reduce the HD since imps are kinda suposed to be fragile.
-Only one good save(see above).
-Move either the invisibility or alternate form to 2nd level. Make them per day, not per hour. Per hour abilities are specially abuseable at low levels.
-Remove the bonus to spellcasting.
-Tone down the poison.
-Save DCs of SLAs 10+1/2 HD+Stat so it scales properly.

Hyudra

2010-07-31, 08:58 PM

Oslecamo

2010-07-31, 09:34 PM

The trouble with imps is that being tiny, they have to enter an opponent's square to deliver poison. I considered that handicap, on top of the creature's particularly low damage, enough for the readily used poison and invisibility.

Invisibility on the original creature is at will, so 1/day seems particularly limiting.

As it stands, the imp can generally go invisible once per encounter, to get into melee against a particular foe (to enter their square), deliver poison where it's needed.

Tiny size+ 4 ranks in hide means it has +12 hide at 1st level before Dex modifier and competence item. They don't need invisibility to go unnoticed. Heck, they're tiny, they can hide in an ally's backpack!

Aproach unnoticed, get suprise round, move into the enemy square, they can't make Aoos because it's the suprise round, proceed to deliver poison. Invisibility for when the going gets tough.

Beyond that, most low level imps are going to use alternate form to get a shape more suitable for battle (boar).

Precisely. With your version they have no less than three quite powerfull strategies at 1st level. Spammable invisibility, tank-boar, and entangling spider. Something needs to go out.

At mid level, when it can go invisible multiple times per encounter, it nonetheless has to use an action to do so, which plays into the whole economy of actions & how that impacts game balance.

Action economy is nothing when compared to Action Reality.

Enemy: Hmm what?
Imp: Invisibility-backed SNEAK ATTACK!
Enemy: Ouch! I counter attack!
Imp:No, that was the suprise round. Now we actually roll iniative
Enemy: Hey wait...
Imp:Cool I won! Invisibility again sucker!
Enemy: Ok now I get to act...Wait I can't see you! I can't take any meaningfull actions!
Imp:SNEACK ATTACK from outside your counter-attack range sucker!
Enemy:The poison! It burns us!
Imp:Yes hahaha! While you run around trying to catch me, I buy time for the poison to strike again! Victory is mine!
Enemy: THE ACTION ECONOMY! IT DOES'T DO ANYTING!

Ahem, action economy rant aside, thing is that spammable invisibility is quite abuseable. It doesn't matter that your oponent can act if he doesn't know where you are.

Make both invisibility and alter self into 1/day abilities and the creature is totally gimped. You've got a melee combatant at early levels that's got maybe a total +5 to AC from size/natural armor & the bonus +2 to hit, but is provoking an attack of opportunity pretty much whenever it wants to attack, assuming the opponent has half a brain.

It doesn't matter if it has two brains. The imp has +12 hide minimum. It can sneak up on anything at those levels. Even a druid would have trouble seeing him coming.

If you have allies so much the better. Have the fighter move nearby the enemy. There, if he tries to move more than 5 foot away from you then he takes Aoo from the fighter.

It can't approach a fight in a straightforward manner, so it needs the ways to approach the fight laterally. As a result, it gets alternate forms and invisibility.

SKILLS! You gave him 6+int mod at 1st level!

The base saves & attack progression are taken straight from the Erinyes.

Well yes the Erinyes doesn't start tiny (wich again is an advantage, not an handicap. Large creatures outreach their oponents, tiny ones just sneak under their noses)

So unless I'm missing something, I can't make the changes you suggest in good conscience.

You're understimating tiny size a lot. That +8 bonus to hide means nobody will see him coming even whitout magic backup. And then it's a free +2 to AC and to hit. Lv 1 imp with 18 Dex and 14 Con and Weapon finesse has +16 Hide, 20 AC (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Nat, +2 leather armor wich you take no penalty for wearing even whitout proefeciency), and +7 to hit. Those are excellent combat statistics. Your oponent has to see you coming first, and then he "just" needs to hit your 20 AC. Even a raging water orc barbarian 1 has only +9 to hit.

Aran Banks

2010-07-31, 09:39 PM

that Imp class is an AWESOME 1-level dip for a rogue. And the way oslecamo puts it.. invisibilty should be more limited in use. Having it at level 1 or 2 is crazy as it is. Making it usable many times per day is even crazier.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-31, 11:28 PM

Oslecamo: On illithids... well, screw LoM. 3.5 was never good on the fluff angle anyways. Illithids are behind-the-scenes manipulators, dammit! My paradigm is the only paradigm!:smallfurious::smalltongue:

As for the updated illithid: +int at all levels is fine and dandy if you're not actually getting casting levels, but +cha at all levels seems a bit excessive.
Might want to make the SLAs PLAs instead: specifically, charm and dominate would work a lot better as X-like-abilities than charm person and dominate person.

For the ulitharid, drop some of the charisma bonuses and give it +2 strength/+2 constitution. They're dire illithids. Also, you didn't include the thing about the additional tentacles: an ulitharid has 6, not 4. Additionally, they're longer and stronger: might want to make them deal more damage die, have longer reach, etc.
Also: it's an advanced illithid. The pinnacle of illithid-y-ness. Greater illithids. I'd definitely make the prerequisite a full 8 levels in the illithid class- it seems rather pointless to have an ulitharid that's not a full illithid.

Hyudra: Invisibility, multiple times per day, at level one? Seems powerful. A caster needs a feat to maybe do invisibility once per day at level one. I'd delay that 'till level 2, at least.
Otherwise, I think it looks good.

Hyudra

2010-08-01, 12:58 AM

I was trying to read up on hide, anticipating the discussion of the +8 hide bonus, but couldn't find where in the SRD it talks about what Hide actually does. Lots on the modifiers and whatnot, and techniques you can use while hiding, but nothing on the general benefit. The last roguish character I played was a Factotum, a while back, and I didn't invest points in Hide. Beyond that was a Beguiler in a short lived campaign 2 years ago, and I used invisibility when I saw the need.

Alright, fair enough. I'm not sure I like how good a dip it is for rogues, but I'll make the changes you suggest tomorrow, or see if I can find workarounds.

Can you clarify on what you mean by: "Save DCs of SLAs 10+1/2 HD+Stat so it scales properly."?
Unless I'm having a total brain fart, none of the SLAs require Save DCs.

Oslecamo

2010-08-01, 06:52 AM

As for the updated illithid: +int at all levels is fine and dandy if you're not actually getting casting levels, but +cha at all levels seems a bit excessive.

Yeah I tought as much. Changed it to either +1 to int or Cha at each level.

Might want to make the SLAs PLAs instead: specifically, charm and dominate would work a lot better as X-like-abilities than charm person and dominate person.

No they wouldn't. PLAs work in a much more complex manner than SLAs. Plus psionic charm person demands concentration wich kinda sucks at 2nd level when the mind flayer gets it.

For the ulitharid, drop some of the charisma bonuses and give it +2 strength/+2 constitution. They're dire illithids.

Stronger, faster...Ok, I get it. But so I change it so it gets either int or cha boost each level.

Also, you didn't include the thing about the additional tentacles: an ulitharid has 6, not 4.

Done ages ago. The mind flayer class keeps growing tentacles with extra HD so at level 12 it should have 6 whetever he took the prc or not. Funny how people keep missing that detail.:smallsigh:

Additionally, they're longer and stronger: might
want to make them deal more damage die, have longer reach, etc.

Size increase at 1st level. Natural weapons automatically deal more damage and have more reach.

Also: it's an advanced illithid. The pinnacle of illithid-y-ness. Greater illithids. I'd definitely make the prerequisite a full 8 levels in the illithid class- it seems rather pointless to have an ulitharid that's not a full illithid.

Why not? I want to make mind flayer 1/caster 7/ulitharid 4 a viable build. There's more than one path to absolute power for the mind flayers!:smalltongue:

Hyudra:Ok I'll admit that the hide rules could've been better written but basically hide works as a nonmagical invisibility. If you suceed they can't see you but you can see them. You just need some kind of cover/concealment to do it. Actualy all that invisibility does is give you a +30 bonus to hide and remove the need for cover/concealment.

Also, I sugest you read your class again to find the SLA that demands a save.:smallwink:

Trodon

2010-08-01, 12:43 PM

I have a question, does the Ulitharid's Alien Hide stack with the Mind Flayer's natural armor bonus equal to his Int or Cha modifier, wichever is higher?

Oslecamo

2010-08-01, 01:20 PM

I have a question, does the Ulitharid's Alien Hide stack with the Mind Flayer's natural armor bonus equal to his Int or Cha modifier, wichever is higher?

Yes, added a note to make it clear.

Hyudra

2010-08-01, 01:32 PM

Touched up the Imp.

Oslecamo

2010-08-01, 03:31 PM

Someone put a lot of questions on a PM and I'll put them here:

1) Put Gloom Dagger at level 1, no reason to make every level 1 Gloom buy a dagger for a level. If the point of the race is that they have a dagger that is part of them and kills things, let them have it.

Every monsters have lots of abilities. I can't put them all on the 1st level. And the gloom dagger is suposed to be a secondary ability, while quitiscience is a primary.

Just don't be cheap and burn 1 GP for a dagger. Or get a club/quarterstaff for free.

2) Maybe add some way to have the Gloom be able to TWF with his dagger if he has the feats.

The gloom isn't suposed to be a TWFer. I'm honestly sick of all the " Rogues always dual wield daggers!" thingy. What happened to the assassins who kill just with one weapon? The gloom picture clearly shows one dagger. If you want another burn the resources for it.

3) Not that he has the feats or anything, since he needs Weapon Finesse, and the TWFing tree is terrible. You could give him Weapon Finesse on his dagger for free to.

You get true strike SLA at 2nd level to help you hit stuff.

4) Honestly, the Rogue class needs it too, but you could give the Gloom some way of getting SA, that would be great, since like the Rogue, his only option is to beg the Wizard for a grease, since he can't actually get anyone flat footed ever.

Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight. Flanking. Geting SA conditions is quite easy. The true problem is all the stuff immune to it, and the gloom class takes care of it.

Obviously all those things at once might make him slightly more powerful than a Rogue, but a Rogue is by no means very powerful in the first place.

It is already stronger than a basic rogue. Full sneak attack progression, medium Bab, 8 skill points per level, +5 Dex over 20 levels, +4 Int over 20 levels, several powerfull SLAs, extra actions, terror and other goodies. The only thing the rogue can do better is detect traps and evade area blasts.

Especially at 1-2, he's just a Whisper Gnome Rogue but worse, moving Gloom Blade down to one, giving him weapon finesse on it, would be a start, since if played by the rules, the Whisper Gnome Rogue can't do that until level 3 (or until he can get a feycraft X, but whatever).

It is an outsider not an humanoid. That alone makes him immune to a lot of nasty low level stuff out there and opens several doors later. A lot of people miss that.

As for weapon finesse it would be plain unfair for the gloom to get it when the other "rogues" need to wait untill lv 3 to get it.

That was just one class, I also had a more general complaint:

All your monsters do something stupid at level 1.

If someone plays a Mindflayer, or a beholder, or a medusa, it's because they want to do those things. Stun people, eye ray people, stone people.

But instead, all three of those monsters (and I get a general impression, lots of other ones, but I didn't pay as much attention to others) are just things that make attack actions with natural weapons at level 1. Which is not at all the point of the class.

And if I want to play a necromancer that animes his oponent's corpses I need to wait untill lv 5 minimum. The dread necromancer class can only do it at lv 7.

Some things just shouldn't be available at 1st level. Gaze attaks and auto-scaling area save or die are some of those.

The Beholder at least gets to once a day sleep a single person if he hits the touch attack and they fail the save, but even still, playing a Beholder at level 1, you could plausibly go 2-3 days without ever putting anyone to sleep.

I think you should modify those classes, to be doing the things they are supposed to. Like Maybe the Mindflayer can lock down one person in a battle of wills, where he stuns one person, but has to maintain concentration (and they have to fail a will save, and maybe they get more saves to get out).

Or the Medusa Glare can just entangle people at level 1, but fluff it as them feeling heavy.

That sort of thing.

You seem to be missing one of the main bases of this project.

All monster abilities should feel usefull for all 20 levels.

Lock down one person by sacrificing your turn with save every turn allowed? That's plainly weak. And not that mind-flayerish at all. The mind flayer may as well bludgeon his oponent to death with his tentacles.

Entangling gaze on the other hand would probably be too powerfull. Spammable entangle is quite powerfull at 1st level and the main thing that makes the dragonfire adept an actualy good class.

So no. Designing low level abilities just for 1st level isn't worth the effort. The mind flayer gets telepathy and tentacles.
The beholder gets to ignore difficult terrain and other floor obstacles.
The medusa gets poison and martial weapon proefeciency.

This isn't 4e where you start with all the tricks and then get upgraded versions of them. You start as a lowly "infant" bein that can only do some limited stuff and then learn to use your more special abilities as you level up, and get all the reportoire when the class ends.

Hyudra:Much better. I'll add it to the list now.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-01, 04:00 PM

Yeah I tought as much. Changed it to either +1 to int or Cha at each level.
...That is fantastic.

Done ages ago. The mind flayer class keeps growing tentacles with extra HD so at level 12 it should have 6 whetever he took the prc or not. Funny how people keep missing that detail.:smallsigh:
The ulitharid gains tentacles above and beyond what a mindflayer would.

Size increase at 1st level. Natural weapons automatically deal more damage and have more reach.
I want you to look at the picture of the ulitharid. See how he has six tentacles? And see how 2 of said tentacles are about 3x as long as the other tentacles?

Why not? I want to make mind flayer 1/caster 7/ulitharid 4 a viable build. There's more than one path to absolute power for the mind flayers!:smalltongue:
My point is, why the hell are you taking levels in ulitharid when you could be taking levels of mindflayer? The point of an ulitharid is that it has everything a mindflayer has, but more. It's like a black ethergaunt as opposed to a blue ethergaunt.

But, y'know what? It's your class. I personally feel strongly about mindflayers, because they're my favorite monster race, and I happen to look at them in a specific, rather unique way. So when I make my psionic mindflayer, I'll do things my way, and you'll have things your way, and everybody's happy!:smalltongue:

Oslecamo

2010-08-01, 04:16 PM

The ulitharid gains tentacles above and beyond what a mindflayer would.

Yes. They deal more damage and have more reach and grapple better than those of a normal mind flayer.

I want you to look at the picture of the ulitharid. See how he has six tentacles? And see how 2 of said tentacles are about 3x as long as the other tentacles?

He's cheating you. He can actualy extend all his tentacles to that lenght!:smalltongue:

On a more serious note, nothing on the original monster sugests it has two tentacles stronger than normal.

On an even more serious note, a dagger has as much reach as a greatsword.

My point is, why the hell are you taking levels in ulitharid when you could be taking levels of mindflayer? The point of an ulitharid is that it has everything a mindflayer has, but more. It's like a black ethergaunt as opposed to a blue ethergaunt.

Well, since you need 11 ranks in concentration to enter Ulitharid, you need to take something untill you can start taking Ulitharid levels.

But, y'know what? It's your class. I personally feel strongly about mindflayers, because they're my favorite monster race, and I happen to look at them in a specific, rather unique way. So when I make my psionic mindflayer, I'll do things my way, and you'll have things your way, and everybody's happy!:smalltongue:

No I'm not.:smallannoyed:
I created this thread to share and critique ideas. I want people to review my works as much as I review others. Even if your view of the Mind Flayer differs of that of D&D, I would greatly apreciate if you consider my mind flayer/ulitharid worth taking whitout being broken and if they look like they would be fun to play. Forget the fluff for a moment if needed, and tell me if this tentacle/psionic monster would be worthy of a campaign.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-01, 05:42 PM

Forget the fluff for a moment if needed, and tell me if this tentacle/psionic monster would be worthy of a campaign.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in my last statement: the only reason I'm not liking your ulitharid is the fluff. Otherwise, it's fine.:smallredface:

Malakar

2010-08-01, 05:50 PM

Every monsters have lots of abilities. I can't put them all on the 1st level. And the gloom dagger is suposed to be a secondary ability, while quitiscience is a primary.

His primary ability is to not make noise? That's an incredibly bad character that I would never want to play.

Party: Oh look a Dragon.
Gloom: I very quietly watch everyone else die.

His primary ability is to hit things with his dagger.

Just don't be cheap and burn 1 GP for a dagger. Or get a club/quarterstaff for free.

It's not about being cheap, it's about not having something thematically appropriate to the monster. It makes no sense for a creature with a dagger made of his soul to buy a regular dagger for one level and one level only, and have to run around with a dagger not made of his soul.

You get true strike SLA at 2nd level to help you hit stuff.

So you are only allowed to hit things once a day per HD and only every other round on a Dex based class that makes damage from hitting things multiple times? Oh I mean sure, at level 5 you get to hit things once per round, and level 10 you finally get to hit things more than once a round.

Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight. Flanking. Geting SA conditions is quite easy. The true problem is all the stuff immune to it, and the gloom class takes care of it.

Those... don't actually work. I mean, I suppose since you are already limiting him to hitting once every other round, he can actually flank, unlike a rogue who actually hits people at least once a round. But Hide in Plain Sight comes after you could buy a ring of blink, and the Hide skill only works if you have concealment, which you can't if you are adjacent to someone.

It is already stronger than a basic rogue. Full sneak attack progression, medium Bab, 8 skill points per level, +5 Dex over 20 levels, +4 Int over 20 levels, several powerfull SLAs, extra actions, terror and other goodies. The only thing the rogue can do better is detect traps and evade area blasts.

So it's a Rogue that is more powerful at levels 10 plus in exchange for being weaker at levels 10 minus.

Some things just shouldn't be available at 1st level. Gaze attaks and auto-scaling area save or die are some of those.

Except that you can in fact make less powerful versions of those things. And when the thing you want to do is "Be a Mindflayer" it makes no sense to make a level 1 Mindflayer with no mind powers who doesn't do what mind flayers do. I mean, you might as well write "A level 1-5 Mindflayer has the Barbarian class, and then at level 6 turns into a real Minflayer and trades out those levels for something actually mindflayerish." Because a Mindflayer who can't use his mind to overpower you is not a Mindflayer at all.

You seem to be missing one of the main bases of this project.

All monster abilities should feel usefull for all 20 levels.

Lock down one person by sacrificing your turn with save every turn allowed? That's plainly weak. And not that mind-flayerish at all. The mind flayer may as well bludgeon his oponent to death with his tentacles.

Actually, the ability would beat all humanoids because it makes them drop their weapon. And you could just as easily make the ability not save every round, but have a two round duration, or any number of other things.

It's more mind flayerish to stun thing with your mind than to attack people with tentacles, because Mindflayers don't even do that. They only use their tentacles in a grapple to extract, and on helpless prey.

Entangling gaze on the other hand would probably be too powerfull. Spammable entangle is quite powerfull at 1st level and the main thing that makes the dragonfire adept an actualy good class.

I think being single target would be a hefty limit. Much worse than a DFA.

So no. Designing low level abilities just for 1st level isn't worth the effort. The mind flayer gets telepathy and tentacles.
The beholder gets to ignore difficult terrain and other floor obstacles.
The medusa gets poison and martial weapon proefeciency.

Right, it's not worth letting level 1 monsters be in any way similar to the actual monster, you'd sooner just tell everyone who wants to play a specific monster from level 1 "No, play something else for a few levels because I don't care enough to bother letting people play Medusas at level 1." But you care enough to make leveled classes? That makes no sense.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-01, 05:57 PM

It's more mind flayerish to stun thing with your mind than to attack people with tentacles, because Mindflayers don't even do that. They only use their tentacles in a grapple to extract, and on helpless prey.

That's what I've been trying to say!

Otherwise, though, I really don't see your problem. Just take friggin' weapon finesse as a gloom. And hide/flanking does happen to work to make sneak attack. It sortof says so in the SRD. Every sneak attack I have ever made has been from either hide, flanking or invisibility... And, really, it's more powerful in every way than a rogue.

Right, it's not worth letting level 1 monsters be in any way similar to the actual monster, you'd sooner just tell everyone who wants to play a specific monster from level 1 "No, play something else for a few levels because I don't care enough to bother letting people play Medusas at level 1." But you care enough to make leveled classes? That makes no sense.

Really? What's your problem? You seem to be pissed off at not just the individual classes, but by how Oslecamo is doing things. Most people are happy with it: if it's not broken, don't fix it. If you don't like the goddamn classes, then don't use the goddamn classes, or do what I'm doing and make your own.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-01, 08:41 PM

Can somebody review the "Disease perfection" ability on the Styx dragon? I don't know whether or not its an appropriate power level.

demidracolich

2010-08-01, 09:12 PM

Um, you accidently put it into the saves section instead of the class features section.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-01, 09:14 PM

:smallsigh: Thanks for pointing that out.

Malakar

2010-08-01, 09:17 PM

Really? What's your problem? You seem to be pissed off at not just the individual classes, but by how Oslecamo is doing things. Most people are happy with it: if it's not broken, don't fix it. If you don't like the goddamn classes, then don't use the goddamn classes, or do what I'm doing and make your own.

I am pissed off about the way several classes follow a "No you can't have anything the monster has until you reach half the CR of the monster" style thing, where you can't stun people until level 4, and you can't eye beam multiple people until you are level 6. But mostly I just don't like that like half of all caster monsters are just "you attack with natural weapons" as if that were in any way castery, or what someone who wants to play a beholder/mindflayer/whatever wants from a class of the same.

But as for making my own, he's already made some of them, so if I make a straight up mindflayer who actually stuns people at all levels, he's not going to link it on his little box, and people aren't going to use it, look it over, or have it allowed in games, because it doesn't carry his name and authority.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-01, 09:19 PM

But as for making my own, he's already made some of them, so if I make a straight up mindflayer who actually stuns people at all levels, he's not going to link it on his little box, and people aren't going to use it, look it over, or have it allowed in games, because it doesn't carry his name and authority.

You could just use your own thread if you don't agree. Heck, a lot of people don't allow homebrew period so him having made it doesn't mean they'll automatically allow it. Even if somebody does allow homebrew, it doesn't mean they'll allow his.

Malakar

2010-08-01, 10:21 PM

You could just use your own thread if you don't agree. Heck, a lot of people don't allow homebrew period so him having made it doesn't mean they'll automatically allow it. Even if somebody does allow homebrew, it doesn't mean they'll allow his.

I'm not saying it's a universal. But some people do allow some homebrew. And of those people, more people are going to accept it because it's on his list of Monster classes than if it isn't, unless Fax wrote it, in which case same thing.

Specific posters here apparently have reputations of at least quality X, because of the homebrew accepting games, they pre clear some posters work, and accept things more readily from them.

So it behooves me to encourage this poster to change some aspects and thus have it be accepted by a wider audience than to make it myself and have it accepted by myself.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-01, 11:58 PM

I wasn't aware that Oslecamo was a well known homebrew poster.

Ignoring that for a moment however, I still think you should do it by yourself rather than try to convince him to change every single class he's done so far. As soon as I believe I've got a good grasp of the mechanics I'll be leaving this thread to do my own and try and get up a reputation.

However, if that happens, I will link back to here and mention that the other people in this thread are extremely helpful, they have some very good homebrew of their own, and I couldn't have done it without their help.:smallsmile:

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:10 AM

Kyuubi: Disease perfection... huh... well, it's a little underwhelming for a 20th level capstone. My iron golem gets permanent spell turning and complete immunity to all SR: yes spells, and that's at 13th level.
Then again, it's nice to have, and other 20th level capstones are rather underwhelming, so it should be fine. Certainly not unbalanced.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 01:16 AM

Well, I couldn't really think of anything both disease or lower planes based and so good you want to go to twenty just so you can have it. If you have any ideas I'm willing to hear them.

I also changed the swim speed to be equal to hit dice as per other the other dragons fly speeds. I figure it should get a scaling speed as well. Although, swim doesn't come up a lot in the games I'm in so it may have consequences I can't foresee.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:19 AM

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 01:23 AM

Hmmm... how about you include the caveat that if said creature is not immune to disease, they don't get a save? That should work well.

Aha! Thank you.

Hmm. I think it might need one other thing for level 17. Maybe improved DC for disease based affects?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:31 AM

Aha! Thank you.

Hmm. I think it might need one other thing for level 17. Maybe improved DC for disease based affects?

Hmmm... perhaps...
A theme on the styx dragon seems to be mental ability score damage... perhaps you could channel that through melee attacks? It's something. The bite, I suppose, as the tail's already supplying it: save or be affected as if by a feeblemind? Something like that.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 01:43 AM

Hmmm... perhaps...
A theme on the styx dragon seems to be mental ability score damage... perhaps you could channel that through melee attacks? It's something. The bite, I suppose, as the tail's already supplying it: save or be affected as if by a feeblemind? Something like that.

Hmm. I'm not sure. On the one hand Feeblemind is pretty powerful. On the other, it's an enchantment, compulsion, and a mind affecting spell so I don't know. I'll look at the various penalty/damage spells though and get back to you.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:45 AM

Hmm. I'm not sure. On the one hand Feeblemind is pretty powerful. On the other, it's an enchantment, compulsion, and a mind affecting spell so I don't know. I'll look at the various penalty/damage spells though and get back to you.

Well, I'm really just brainstorming here. Just ideas to get you going: in the end, it's your class.:smallsmile:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 01:52 AM

Well, I'm really just brainstorming here. Just ideas to get you going: in the end, it's your class.:smallsmile:

Yes, and thank you for the help. Right now it's between feeblemind and Eyebite. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eyebite.htm) Feeblemind makes more sense thematically though. Plus, I still need to get the other breath weapon done which will make it a deadly combo on the opponents that are vulnerable.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 02:04 AM

Yes, and thank you for the help. Right now it's between feeblemind and Eyebite. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/eyebite.htm) Feeblemind makes more sense thematically though. Plus, I still need to get the other breath weapon done which will make it a deadly combo on the opponents that are vulnerable.

Might just want to put a low daily cap on the ability- topping out at 3 a day or something like that, if you're going the feeblemind route (which is certainly much more thematically appropriate). In fact, you might even want to let there be a choice between the two.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 02:13 AM

Might just want to put a low daily cap on the ability- topping out at 3 a day or something like that, if you're going the feeblemind route (which is certainly much more thematically appropriate). In fact, you might even want to let there be a choice between the two.

Made there be a choice between the two, added the Stupefying breath, and capped it at 3/day like you suggested. Although I'm not sure the eyebite ability is strong enough to warrant 3/day since it would only affect the creature bitten. Any ideas? And yes, I know the 3/day on eyebite wasn't your suggestion.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 02:17 AM

Made there be a choice between the two, added the Stupefying breath, and capped it at 3/day like you suggested. Although I'm not sure the eyebite ability is strong enough to warrant 3/day since it would only affect the creature bitten. Any ideas? And yes, I know the 3/day on eyebite wasn't your suggestion.

Hmmm...
Well, first of all, an easy fix would be to let them choose between feeblemind & eyebite every time they bite an enemy. Or, make eyebite at will, feeblemind 3/day. Or, better yet, just let it channel its breath weapon with a bite attack, which would be even more thematically appropriate (god why didn't I say that earlier?)

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 02:19 AM

Hmmm...
Well, first of all, an easy fix would be to let them choose between feeblemind & eyebite every time they bite an enemy. Or, make eyebite at will, feeblemind 3/day. Or, better yet, just let it channel its breath weapon with a bite attack, which would be even more thematically appropriate (god why didn't I say that earlier?)

I have two theories.
1.you have insomnia like me (Go ahead and read the breath weapon entry.:smalltongue:)
2. You're distracted by other things and aren't putting all your focus into this.

EDIT: Okay, I think it works well as a class now and is worth taking to level 20. Thanks for the help!:smallbiggrin:

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 02:27 AM

I have two theories.
1.you have insomnia like me (Go ahead and read the breath weapon entry.:smalltongue:)
2. You're distracted by other things and aren't putting all your focus into this.

EDIT: Okay, I think it works well as a class now and is worth taking to level 20. Thanks for the help!:smallbiggrin:

...No, no, number one, certainly. Was that there before?
Honestly, though... please... for the good of everyone... clean it up, will you? You have abilities on the table that aren't in the class.:smalleek::smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 02:28 AM

...No, no, number one, certainly. Was that there before?
Honestly, though... please... for the good of everyone... clean it up, will you? You have abilities on the table that aren't in the class.:smalleek::smalltongue:

Really? Okay.:smallsigh:

I hate being awake at 3:30. It messes with everything.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 02:34 AM

Really? Okay.:smallsigh:

I hate being awake at 3:30. It messes with everything.

3:30... you live on the... east coast of america? I'm guessing somewhere around the big apple?:smallbiggrin:
It's 12:30 here in Californey. I've still got at least another hour or four of activity, though certainly none of it will be entirely lucid.:smalltongue:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 02:35 AM

3:30... you live on the... east coast of america? I'm guessing somewhere around the big apple?:smallbiggrin:
It's 12:30 here in Californey. I've still got at least another hour or four of activity, though certainly none of it will be entirely lucid.:smalltongue:

Nope. I live in Little old boring Indiana.Okay, it's not that boring. We have Gencon for example.

EDIT: Okay. I think I've got the class cleaned up.

edit 2: Okay, question on the tail blades. Would that be two seperate attacks each of which get +1 and 1/2 strength bonus as normal?

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 05:37 AM

I am pissed off about the way several classes follow a "No you can't have anything the monster has until you reach half the CR of the monster" style thing, where you can't stun people until level 4, and you can't eye beam multiple people until you are level 6. But mostly I just don't like that like half of all caster monsters are just "you attack with natural weapons" as if that were in any way castery, or what someone who wants to play a beholder/mindflayer/whatever wants from a class of the same.

Ok, let's say I want to play an undead-rising necromancer.

Best bet I need to be a cleric lv5. The dread necromancer needs 7 levels before he gets animate dead.

Wanna play a transmuting wizard? Well you won't be actualy transmuting anything untill lv 3 at best.

Want to play a mounted rider? Either you're a puny halfling and get a dog mount or again wait untill you can afford a large mount.

Why? Because those are powerfull stuff that are not suited for lv1 play.

The necromancer will be your average cleric untill lv5 and the transmuter will be your average wizard untill lv3.

The mind flayer on the other hand can talk in your mind at lv1 (combined with bluff/intimidate if needed), charm person at lv2 and finally mind blast at lv 3. In my opinion this shows well his increasing mastery of his mental powers.

I'm not saying it's a universal. But some people do allow some homebrew. And of those people, more people are going to accept it because it's on his list of Monster classes than if it isn't, unless Fax wrote it, in which case same thing.

Specific posters here apparently have reputations of at least quality X, because of the homebrew accepting games, they pre clear some posters work, and accept things more readily from them.

And you know why? Because those posters worked hard for that reputation. The mind flayer and medusa you complain so much about were of my first works here and received several good reviews.

So it behooves me to encourage this poster to change some aspects and thus have it be accepted by a wider audience than to make it myself and have it accepted by myself.

You know, you did notice that Gorgondatress said he'll do a full-psionics mind flayer and I'll review it for adding to the list right?

So if you think you can do a better job give it a try. If I like it then it will be added. If I don't like it you're free to go start your own thread and work hard as I did building up your own reputation.

Now if you excuse me I'm off to review Kyuubi's newest dragon.

Frog Dragon

2010-08-02, 05:55 AM

Also, about that list. You missed my Yugoloths in there. If they still need an edit, I'll go do it. After that, I'll get doing the other yugoloths. In the manual of the planes, there's still Canoloth and Ultroloth I haven't touched on. Fiend Folio and the MM:s probably have some too.
Hmm, there's Piscoloth and Skeroloth in the Fiend Folio.
Edit: Marraenoloth, Arcanaloth and Yagnoloth found in MMII In MMIII they just updated the Manual of the planes yugoloths.
In MMIV we have Corruptor of Fate, Voor and Dreadful Lasher. Weird disconnect from the other "loth" names. And there are no yugoloths in MMV. Still have 10 yugoloths to do. :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 06:04 AM

EDIT: Okay. I think I've got the class cleaned up.

At first glance:
-Specify that the improved grab only works with tail blade attacks.
-The disease special abilities, altough flavourfull, aren't that usefull as diseases are very slow acting. I would add some extra custom abilities to allow the dragon to speed up the disease's effects.
-Last levels kinda empty. See above and below for sugestions, or just add a few more ability scores.
-You don't specify they can breathe underwater. They're also suposed to be aquatic creatures so they shouldn't take penalties in underwater combat.
-The original Styx dragon has two DRs, one /magic and the other /good. I would sugest to combine it in DR/magic and good equal to half HD.
-Since they can't fly boosts to the land speed over the progression would be nice since the other dragons eventually are flying at 200 foot speed.
-The stygian breath could probably scale up a little faster like 1 int damage per 4 HD, even per 3HD or per 2HD if we want to make it really powerfull. 3 int damage on 15th level doesn't really scare anybody. 7 Int damage may look a lot but most 14th level stuff out there has 10 or more int so they'll be able to shrugg off one breath at least and very few monsters have int-related abilities so they combat ability won't be reduced. Heck, the silver dragon gets save or die breath at 5th level.

In alternative, 1 Int damage per 4 HD or 3 HD, but deals half damage on sucessfull save.

edit 2: Okay, question on the tail blades. Would that be two seperate attacks each of which get +1 and 1/2 strength bonus as normal?

Yeah good question. The sty dragon does get a lot less attacks than other dragons but two attacks for +1 and 1/2 at 1st level seems kinda overkill. Make it start as just +1 Str and then make it increase to +1 and 1/2 at some higher level.

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 06:17 AM

Also, about that list. You missed my Yugoloths in there. If they still need an edit, I'll go do it.

No they're good enough now, I just forgot to add them due to all other stuff. Thanks for reminding me.

After that, I'll get doing the other yugoloths. In the manual of the planes, there's still Canoloth and Ultroloth I haven't touched on. Fiend Folio and the MM:s probably have some too.
Hmm, there's Piscoloth and Skeroloth in the Fiend Folio.

I look forward to them. It's really great each one of you wants to tackle your favorite monster "families" since I prefer to do the more unique stuff.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Buffed up battle of minds ability of the Mind Flayer to allow it to use intimidate to demoralize oponents at range and adding his int modifier on top of Cha, now that I noticed that you can only demoralize oponents whitin your melee reach.

Malakar

2010-08-02, 10:51 AM

Ok, let's say I want to play an undead-rising necromancer.

Best bet I need to be a cleric lv5. The dread necromancer needs 7 levels before he gets animate dead.

Or you can be a Wizard who gets a skeleton instead of familiar and uses Summon Undead from level 1, and then use Command Undead, and take a disciple to get Animate at level 5. And then you can be doing the same thing from level 1, but be doing it less well.

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 11:28 AM

Or you can be a Wizard who gets a skeleton instead of familiar and uses Summon Undead from level 1, and then use Command Undead, and take a disciple to get Animate at level 5. And then you can be doing the same thing from level 1, but be doing it less well.

In that first example the skeleton is pretty weak and the wizard has no way to easily heal it after it gets banged up in battle. And it costs 100 GP so good luck actualy starting with it.:smalltongue:

Command undead only comes online at lv3, and then you need to actualy find those undead.:smallamused:

Summon undead at lv 1 lasts 1 round. An horrible use of your precious few spell slots.:smallcool:

A disciple? Since when do wizards get disciples as a class feature? You could take leadership at lv6 but anyone can do that.:smallwink:

BelGareth

2010-08-02, 12:23 PM

Gorgondantess thanks for your positive critiquing:
I tried to fix everything you pointed out and based most abilities off the Balor and angel (reducing things where necessary)

Here is my attempt, please feel free to PEACH and/or annihilate my attempt :)

Leonal
Favored Class: Ranger
Hit Die: D10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|speed

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|
Leonal Body, Lay on hands, Speak with animals |
+0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|
+1 Str, Celestial , Detect thoughts |
+0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|
Heavens Blessings, Natural Attacks, fireball |
+0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1 Str, cure critical wounds, Speed, pounce |
+10

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+2 Con, Lesser Protective aura |
+10

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+1 Str, Remove disease, Roar |
+10

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2 Dex, Neutralize Poison, Greater protective aura, Rake |
+10

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+1 Str, Hold Monster, Improved Grab |
+20

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+2 Cha, Wall of force |
+20

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+1 Str |
+20

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|
Heal |
+20

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|
+1 Str, Lion form |
+30
[/table]

Skill points at 1st: (4 + INT Modifier) x 4
Skill points at Each additional level: 4 + INT Modifier
Skills: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(any), Listen, Move silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival.
The Leonal gains +1 Str at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12
The Leonal gains +2 Con at 5th level
The Leonal gains +2 Dex at 7th level
The Leonal gains +2 Cha at 9th level
Leonal body: The Leonal loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits. It's a medium sized outsider with base 40 feet and two natural claw attacks (1d6 + Str). He also gains a racial bonus equal to ½HD to Move silently and Hide skills. A Leonal also gets +1 Nat armor equal to its Con modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As outsider proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A Leonal is not proficient with any kind of armor.
Lay on Hands: Beginning at 1st level a Leonal can heal himself a number of hit points per day equal to the Leonal’s HD X Cha modifier. This ability is identical to the Paladins Lay on hands ability.
Celestial: Gain resistance to electricity and a bonus to saves versus pertrification equal to its HD. A bonus on saves against poison equal to half his HD, and resistance to sonic and cold equal to half his HD, Also gains the good subtype.
Natural Attacks: A Leonal gains 1 bite attack (1D8 + ½ str) at 3rd. Any natural attacks the Leonal has are considered good aligned for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Heavens Blessings: A Leonal gains DR/silver and evil equal to half its HD and SR equal to 11+HD.
Leonal SLA’s: When a spell appears in the entry, the Leonal can use it as a SLA a certain number of times per day depending on its HD. Saves are 10 + ½HD + Cha mod. Caster level is equal to HD. Some of those spells are always active and although they can be dispelled the Leonal can recreate them in his own turn as a free action. The Leonal can also turn those abilities off out of his own will and reactivate them as a free action when needed (only on his own turn).
Speak with animals: 1/day/HD as a free action that does not require sound.
Detect Thoughts: 1/day/HD
Fireball: 1/day/3HD
Cure Critical wounds: 1/day/3HD
Lesser Protective aura: Always active, as magic circle against evil (double strength), but affects all within 20 feet of the Leonal.
Remove disease: 1/day/5HD
Neutralize Poison: 1/day/5HD
Greater protective aura: Always active, as minor glove of invulnerability, but affects all allies within 20 feet of the Leonal.
Hold Monster: 1/day/2HD
Wall of force: 1/day/5HD
Heal: 1/day/5HD
Speed: A Leonal’s speed increases at 4th and every 4 levels after by 10ft (cumulatively for a total of )
Pounce: A Leonal of 4th level gains the ability to Pounce on its target, A Leonal can make a full attack when charging including 2 rakes (if any).
Roar: At 6th Level a Leonal is Capable of Roaring with the wrath of the heavens, this roar is a 60ft cone and duplicates the Holy word spell, he can use it 1/day/4 Levels and it deals an extra 1D6 sonic damage per 5HD. DC = 18 + CHA modifier. Caster level equals HD.
Rake: At 6th a Leonal can make a Rake attack on a successful grapple (or two on a pounce). Rakes are at the Leonal’s highest attack and deal 1D8 + Str.
Improved Grab: At 8th a Leonal gains the Improved Grab ability, when he successfully hits with his bite attack he can make a grapple attempt as a free action. If successful it establishes a hold and can rake.
Lion Form: A Leonal can change as the druid wildshape ability but only into medium and large cats. The amount of times per day is the same as a druid of the same level, all SLA’s work in this alternate form. A Leonal can never assume a form other than a cat (for example from Prc’s).

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 12:33 PM

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 12:37 PM

Much better work now BelGareth! I would just sugest a few more adjustments:
-In the leonal body you say "+1 Nat armor equal to it's Con modifier". Do you mean just "nat armor equal to Con modifier" or "Nat Armor equal to 1+Con modifier"? Clear it up a bit please.
-The roar ability is by far the stronger ability of the class while Lion form could come earlier. They should be swapped in the progression.
-No +2 at one stat in a single level. Spread them over the progression on the form of multiple +1.
-10th level still kinda empty. I would sugest you take a look at the hound archon who can also transform into dogs but I added the ability to transform into huge, gargantuan and colossal dogs by expending extra uses.

Otherwise good job, you're geting the hang of it!:smallsmile:

BelGareth

2010-08-02, 01:07 PM

Awesome, i will see what i can do with the 10th level (and yes i agree)
Clear up the nat armor (it was 'nat armor equal to Con modifier')
And swap those abilities, The roar is more powerful...

Frog Dragon

2010-08-02, 01:16 PM

*coughs*
*raises hand*...
Can I do the ultroloth & marraenoloth?:smallredface:
Go ahead. You'll probably do a better job with them than I would. I think I'll try the Arcanaloth next.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:21 PM

Go ahead. You'll probably do a better job with them than I would. I think I'll try the Arcanaloth next.

Awesome. Ever since I saw Diterlizzi's rendition of the Marraenoloth, I was in love. And ultroloths are just cool.:smallcool:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 01:57 PM

At first glance:[quote]
-Specify that the improved grab only works with tail blade attacks. Nice catch. I'll edit that now.

-The disease special abilities, altough flavourfull, aren't that usefull as diseases are very slow acting. I would add some extra custom abilities to allow the dragon to speed up the disease's effects.
-Last levels kinda empty. See above and below for sugestions, or just add a few more ability scores.
Not sure what to do here. *Puts thinking music on*

-You don't specify they can breathe underwater. They're also suposed to be aquatic creatures so they shouldn't take penalties in underwater combat.

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll fix it.

-The original Styx dragon has two DRs, one /magic and the other /good. I would sugest to combine it in DR/magic and good equal to half HD. Okay. Is there any particular reason this applies to the styx dragon and not the Pyroclastic?

-Since they can't fly boosts to the land speed over the progression would be nice since the other dragons eventually are flying at 200 foot speed. Mechanically I guess that makes more sense but thematically it seems to me that the swim speed should reign supreme. Maybe have the swim speed be equal to the land speed? Or is that too much?

-The stygian breath could probably scale up a little faster like 1 int damage per 4 HD, even per 3HD or per 2HD if we want to make it really powerfull. 3 int damage on 15th level doesn't really scare anybody. 7 Int damage may look a lot but most 14th level stuff out there has 10 or more int so they'll be able to shrugg off one breath at least and very few monsters have int-related abilities so they combat ability won't be reduced. Heck, the silver dragon gets save or die breath at 5th level

In alternative, 1 Int damage per 4 HD or 3 HD, but deals half damage on sucessfull save. Okay, which would you suggest?

Yeah good question. The sty dragon does get a lot less attacks than other dragons but two attacks for +1 and 1/2 at 1st level seems kinda overkill. Make it start as just +1 Str and then make it increase to +1 and 1/2 at some higher level.
Okay. Sounds fine.

BelGareth

2010-08-02, 02:00 PM

Okay so here is the updated Leonal also the Bralani is updated.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG142.jpg
LEONAL

Leonal
Favored Class: Ranger
Hit Die: D10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|speed

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|
Leonal Body, Lay on hands, Speak with animals |
+0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|
+1 Str, Celestial , Detect thoughts |
+0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+1 Con, Heavens Blessings, Natural Attacks, fireball |
+0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1 Str, cure critical wounds, Speed, pounce |
+10

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+1 Con, Lesser Protective aura |
+10

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+1 Str, Remove disease, Lion Form |
+10

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+1 Dex, Neutralize Poison, Greater protective aura, Rake |
+10

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+1 Str, Hold Monster, Improved Grab |
+20

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|
+1 Cha, +1 Dex, Wall of force |
+20

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+1 Str, Huge Lion form |
+20

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+1 Cha, Heal |
+20

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|
+1 Str, Roar |
+30
[/table]

Skill points at 1st: (4 + INT Modifier) x 4
Skill points at Each additional level: 4 + INT Modifier

Skills: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge(any), Listen, Move silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival.

The Leonal gains +1 Str at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

The Leonal gains +1 Con at 3rd and 5th level

The Leonal gains +1 Dex at 7th and 9th level

The Leonal gains +1 Cha at 9th and 11th level

Leonal body: The Leonal loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits. It's a medium sized outsider with base 40 feet and two natural claw attacks (1d6 + Str). He also gains a racial bonus equal to ½HD to Move silently and Hide skills. A Leonal also gets a Nat armor bonus equal to its Con modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As outsider proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A Leonal is not proficient with any kind of armor.

Lay on Hands: Beginning at 1st level a Leonal can heal himself a number of hit points per day equal to the Leonal’s HD X Cha modifier. This ability is identical to the Paladins Lay on hands ability.

Celestial: Gain resistance to electricity and a bonus to saves versus petrification equal to its HD. A bonus on saves against poison equal to half his HD, and resistance to sonic and cold equal to half his HD, Also gains the good subtype.

Natural Attacks: A Leonal gains 1 bite attack (1D8 + ½ str) at 3rd. Any natural attacks the Leonal has are considered good aligned for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Heavens Blessings: A Leonal gains DR/silver and evil equal to half its HD and SR equal to 11+HD.

Leonal SLA’s: When a spell appears in the entry, the Leonal can use it as a SLA a certain number of times per day depending on its HD. Saves are 10 + ½HD + Cha mod. Caster level is equal to HD. Some of those spells are always active and although they can be dispelled the Leonal can recreate them in his own turn as a free action. The Leonal can also turn those abilities off out of his own will and reactivate them as a free action when needed (only on his own turn).

Speak with animals: 1/day/HD as a free action that does not require sound.
Detect Thoughts: 1/day/HD
Fireball: 1/day/3HD
Cure Critical wounds: 1/day/3HD
Lesser Protective aura: Always active, as magic circle against evil (double strength), but affects all within 20 feet of the Leonal.
Remove disease: 1/day/5HD
Neutralize Poison: 1/day/5HD
Greater protective aura: Always active, as minor globe of invulnerability, but affects all allies within 20 feet of the Leonal.
Hold Monster: 1/day/2HD
Wall of force: 1/day/5HD
Heal: 1/day/5HD

Speed: A Leonal’s speed increases at 4th and every 4 levels after by 10ft (cumulatively for a total of +30)

Pounce: A Leonal of 4th level gains the ability to Pounce on its target, A Leonal can make a full attack when charging including 2 rakes (if any).

Lion Form: A Leonal can change as the druid wildshape ability but only into medium and large cats. The amount of times per day is the same as a druid of the same level, all SLA’s work in this alternate form. A Leonal can never assume a form other than a cat (for example from Prc’s). At 10th a Leonal can change into increasingly larger forms utilizing his lion form, for additional uses of Lion form the Leonal uses it can increase the size category as follows.
1 use: medium or large.
(10th Level) 4 uses: Huge
(14th Level) 5 uses: Gargantuan
(18th Level) 6 uses: Collosal

Rake: At 6th a Leonal can make a Rake attack on a successful grapple (or two on a pounce). Rakes are at the Leonal’s highest attack and deal 1D8 + Str.

Improved Grab: At 8th a Leonal gains the Improved Grab ability, when he successfully hits with his bite attack he can make a grapple attempt as a free action. If successful it establishes a hold and can rake.

Roar: At 12th Level a Leonal is Capable of Roaring with the wrath of the heavens, this roar is a 60ft cone and duplicates the Holy word spell, he can use it 1/day/4 Levels and it deals an extra 1D6 sonic damage per 5HD. DC = 10 + ½ HD + CHA modifier. Caster level equals HD.

Comments

1. I changed the Nat armor to reflect "Natural armor bonus equal to Con
modifier.
2. Swapped Roar and Lion Form
3. Enhanced LionForm at 10th to allow for size alterations like you suggested, it is inline with the druid wildshape and therefore the levels were a little different.
4. And spread the stat bonuses out.
I tried my best to keep it very Liony, I think the fast movement and druid like wildshape let that happen alot, and balance things with the other abilities.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG94.jpg
BRALANI

Bralani
Favored Class: Ranger
Hit Die:D6
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+1 Con, Bralani body, Blur, Wind wall

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|
+1 Dex, Eladrin, Gust of Wind

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+1 Cha, Heavens Blessings, Mirror image

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|
+1 Con and Str, Tongues, charm person

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|
+1 Dex, Alternate form, whirlwind blast, Lightning Bolt

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|
+1 cha and Str, Cure serious wounds, Holy power[/table]
Skill points at 1st: (6 + INT Modifier) x 4
Skill points at Each additional level: 6 + INT Modifier
Skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move silently, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble, Use Rope.
The Bralani gains +1 Con at 1st and 4th level
The Bralani gains +1 Dex at 2ndand 5th level
The Bralani gains +1 Cha at 3rd and 6thlevel
The Bralani gains +1 Str at 4th and 6th level
Bralani body: The Bralani loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits. It's a medium sized outsider with base 40 feet and one slam attack (1d8 + Str). A Bralani also gets a Natural armor bonus equal to its Con modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As outsider proficient with all simple and martial weapons. A Bralani is not proficient with any kind of armor.
Eladrin: Gain resistance to electricity and a bonus to saves versus petrification equal to its HD. Resistance to fire and cold equal to half his HD. Also gains the good and chaotic subtype, and weapons wielded are considered Chaotic and good for purposes of bypassing DR.
Heavens Blessings: A Bralani gains DR/cold iron and evil equal to half its HD and SR equal to 11+HD.
Bralani SLA’s: When a spell appears in the entry, the Bralani can use it as a SLA a certain number of times per day depending on its HD. Saves are 10 + ½HD + Cha mod. Caster level is equal to HD. Some of those spells are always active and although they can be dispelled the Bralani can recreate them in his own turn as a free action. The Bralani can also turn those abilities off out of his own will and reactivate them as a free action when needed (only on his own turn).
Blur: 1/day/HD
Wind Wall: 1/day/2HD
Gust of Wind: 1/day/2HD
Mirror Image: 1/day/2HD
Charm Person: 1/day/HD, improves to Charm Monster at 8th level
Tongues: As the spell but always active
Lightning Bolt: 1/day/2HD
Cure Serious wounds: 1/day/4HD
Alternate Form(Su): At 5th level Bralani can shift between his humanoid and whirlwind form as a standard action. While in whirlwind form the Bralani can fly at 40ft (perfect), use whirlwind blast, slam attacks and use spell like abilities. He can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/day/3HD. The fly speed improves by 20ft every 5 levels (for 100ft at 20th)
Whirlwind Blast: 2D6 + 1D6/4 Levels, 20 + 5ft/2HD ft line (Ref DC 10 + ½ HD + Con), A Bralani can use this a number of times equal to 1/day/2HD.
Holy power: As a swift action 1/day/1HD, the Bralani can give the Holy property to any weapon it wields for 1 round. At 20HD, this ability is active all the time.

Comments

I made the Alternate form enhance over time with HD and Whirlwind blast increases in effectiveness like a true spell.
Was trying to go with a cleric/rogue feel.

Now onto the Ghaele...

Frog Dragon

2010-08-02, 02:11 PM

Arcanaloth
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9379/200pxarcanaloth.jpg
Looks surprisingly undemonic...

HD: d6
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Arcanaloth Body, Yugoloth Magic 1/day, +1 Int

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Scholar of Gehenna, Guarded Mind

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+1|
+3|Fiendish Magic, +1 Int

4th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+4|Yugoloth Magic 2/day, +1 Cha

5th|
+2|
+4|
+1|
+4|Fiendish Flight, +1 Int

6th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+5|Yugoloth Resistance

7th|
+3|
+5|
+2|
+5| Yugoloth Magic 3/day, +1 Int

8th|
+4|
+6|
+2|
+6|Poison, Bite, +1 Cha

9th|
+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Arcanaloth Hide, +1 Int

10th|
+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Yugoloth Magic 4/day

11th|
+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Spell Resistance, +1 Int

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+4|
+8|Eyes of Gehenna, +1 Cha

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+4|
+8|Yugoloth Magic 5/day, +1 Int

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+4|
+9|Poisonous Magic

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+5|
+9|+1 Int

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+5|
+10|Yugoloth Magic 6/day, +1 Cha

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+5|
+10|Mage of Gehenna, +1 Int[/table]
Skill Points per level: 4+Int
Class Skills: Bluff, Decipher Script, Intimidate, Speak Language, Knowledge: Any, Spellcraft, Sense Motive, Craft, Profession, Diplomacy

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: All simple weapons, no armor.

Arcanaloth Body
The Arcanaloth loses all previous racial and gains the outsider traits (Darkvision 60ft, no need to eat or sleep). It also gains a land speed of 30ft per round. It also gains two claw attacks that deal damage equal to 1d4+str bonus. In addition, it gains a natural armor bonus equal to it's constitution modifier

Fiendish Magic
At third level the Arcanaloth casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of it's arcanaloth level-2. This casting stacks with further sorcerer levels or other levels that advance sorcerer casting. In addition, the arcanaloth may, at his option, base his sorcerer casting on Int instead of Cha.

Ability Bonuses
At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17, the Arcanaloth gains a +1 bonus to it's intelligence score (Total +9). At levels 4, 8, 12 and 16 the Arcanaloth gains a +1 bonus to it's charisma score (Total +4).

Guarded Mind
At level 2 the Arcanaloth is immune to mind effecting spells and abilities.

Fiendish Flight
At level 5 the arcanaloth gains fly speed equal to twice it's base landspeed at poor maneuverability. Further increases to landspeed also increase this fly speed.

Scholar of Gehenna
At level 2 the arcanaloth can read, speak and write any language. Ever.

Eyes of Gehenna
The arcanaloth is a scholar. A keeper of records. An he is fiendishly good at it.
At level 12, the arcanaloth adds the following spells to his spell list. Arcane Eye, Locate Creature, Scrying and Prying Eyes. If the arcanaloth already has any of these spells in his spell list, he may instead add any other divination spell to his spell list in place of the one he already has.

Poisonous Magic
At level 14, When casting any targetted spell the arcanaloth may also choose to deliver his claw poison to the target, assuming the spell hits. The save against the poison is made seperately.

Yugoloth Magic
The indicated times per day, The Arcanaloth may cast any spell on this on this list as a spell like ability at CL equal to it's HD (DC's charisma based). This means the uses are per sla.
At level 1: Darkness, Magic Missile, Detect Magic
At Level 4: Telekinesis, Invisiblity, Major Image
At Level 7: Fear, Polymorph, Arcane Sight
At level 10: Greater Invisibility, Hallucinatory Terrain
At level 13: Greater Arcane Sight, Legend Lore
At level 16: Discern Location, Scintillating Pattern
At level 19: Shapechange

Poison
At level 8 the arcanaloth's claw attacks are poisonous, dealing 1 point of str damage as primary and secondary damage. DC is 1/2 HD+Con modifier.
At level 12, the poison deals 1d4 str damage as both primary and secondary.
At level 15, 1d6.
at 18th Hd, 1d8.

Bite
At level 8 the Arcanaloth gains a bite attack that deals damage equal to 1d6+str bonus

Arcanaloth Hide
At ninth level the Arcanaloth gains Damage Reduction/Good equal to half it's HD.

Yugoloth Resistance
At level 6, the Arcanaloth gains immunity to Acid and Poison and resistance to Cold, Fire and Electricity equal to it's HD.

Spell Resistance
At level 11, the Arcanaloth gains spell resistance equal to 11+HD.

Mage Of Gehenna
The arcanaloth gains a +2 bonus to the caster level of his sorcerer spellcasting and his spell like abilities.

Comments
This one was kind of tricky, since I had to balance between the spellcasting power and giving Arcanalothy abilities. At levels one and two, it's slightly stronger than the sorcerer, but then starts to weaken in comparison. Essentially, it's a full caster, though if you follow the progression to the end, you do lose out on level 9 spells. I felt this was necessary to keep the balance with the demonic abilities. I gave it the option to use int for it's casting to maintain the scholarly feel, but yeah. Here is the arcanaloth.
Changes: Heavy changes were made. The casting was changed to level-2 and the class frontloaded a bit more to compensate. I took the abilities down and now it gets SLA:s at level 1. I pulled a few abilities out of a hat to make the last levels less dead, but here it is. The new and (hopefully) improved Arcanaloth.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 02:42 PM

Just at a glance, there's really no reason to give wisdom increases, and very little reason to give charisma increases. Excessive stat adjustments are a no-no. I'd increase the total intelligence adjustment to +8 (+1 every even level) then probably +2 charisma.
You also give SR a little late, and for some reason, don't give any natural armor...

Frog Dragon

2010-08-02, 02:48 PM

I dropped the wis, added more int, and lowered the cha to +3. The cha is mainly for the SLA:s.
I'm not giving natural armor for one reason. It'd be excessive. Casting, DR, Resistances, Flight, SLA:s, SR, stat boosts. I'd be quite leery of adding even more stuff. The natural armor isn't really that appropriate me thinks. It doesn't look like something that should have it, and the "fiendish protection" thing is handled by the DR already.

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 04:24 PM

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll fix it. Okay. Is there any particular reason this applies to the styx dragon and not the Pyroclastic?

Because I missed that the Pyroclastic had two DRs as well.

Mechanically I guess that makes more sense but thematically it seems to me that the swim speed should reign supreme. Maybe have the swim speed be equal to the land speed? Or is that too much?

Swim speed double of land speed sounds good. The styx dragon should reign supreme on water.

Okay, which would you suggest?

Personally speaking, 1 Int damage per 3 HD and dealing half rounded down on a sucessfull save. Again most things won't drop having their Int dropped untill it reaches 0. And wizards have something to be afraid.

BelGareth:Please put the monster names in bold. Also on the bralani:
-It gets somewhat too few uses of some SLAs. Charm person, blur and lighting bolt could get double the uses they have now. Also make the charm person upgrade to charm monster at some higher HD.
-No problem in making the whirlwind form fly speed start at perfect maneuverability.
-Allow holy blessing to be used with any weapon. It's suposed to work on bows after all.
-Why does it gain Con and not Str? The class has space for some more ability increases (see below).
-4th level kinda empty. Tongues isn't that usefull of an ability.

Otherwise good job as well on the Bralani, take care of those and I'll add both to the list!

Frog Dragon:You're right that the last levels don't offer much. I personally have the philosohy that each level should be stronger than the before, or at least equal. Levels 9, 12, 13 and 16 are however clearly weaker than other levels. This however is also one of those cases where the original monster isn't that strong. Besides the shapechange the arcanoloth isn't really worth CR 17. Some sugestions:

-Like the Rakasha make it casts as a sorceror of level -2. Yes it ends with sorceror casting 15 but at least now gives a good reason to take all levels.
-Put the minor SLAs and poisoned claws at the first two levels.
-Put back the natural armor, and give it the SR earlier.
-Overall get creative. This is one of those monsters that could really use a buff from the original. Perhaps allow it to deliver his claw poison with spells?

Mystic Muse

2010-08-02, 04:38 PM

Swim speed double of land speed sounds good. The styx dragon should reign supreme on water.

Double? That seems like a lot if the land speed is going to scale with HD.

Oslecamo

2010-08-02, 04:41 PM

Double? That seems like a lot if the land speed is going to scale with HD.

Hmm, the Styx dragon seems to have land speed equal to it's base speed. Could swear it was double. Make it the same then.

ori_natic

2010-08-03, 01:53 AM

Could I get an awakened legendary wolf?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-03, 01:54 AM

Could I get an awakened legendary wolf?

We don't do templated creatures: templates, sure, creatures, sure, but making the class by combining the two just doesn't work.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-03, 01:59 AM

We don't do templated creatures: templates, sure, creatures, sure, but making the class by combining the two just doesn't work.

To be fair, we do have an awakened skeleton so I can see why he'd ask.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-03, 02:01 AM

To be fair, we do have an awakened skeleton so I can see why he'd ask.

...Huh. Well, good point.:smallredface:
Still, I don't think we'll be doing an awakened legendary wolf... unless someone else really wants to.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-03, 02:25 AM

...Huh. Well, good point.:smallredface:.

That's what I'm here for. Pointing things out people missed and wasting time on devil may cry 4.

I really want to make the devil bringer.....

BelGareth

2010-08-03, 12:13 PM

BelGareth:*Please put the monster names in bold.
Done

-It gets somewhat too few uses of some SLAs. Charm person, blur and lighting bolt could get double the uses they have now. Also make the charm person upgrade to charm monster at some higher HD.
Doubled the use for the ones mentioned.

-No problem in making the whirlwind form fly speed start at perfect maneuverability.
Removed the maneuver increase and started it at perfect.

-Allow holy blessing to be used with any weapon. It's supposed to work on bows after all.
Done

-Why does it gain Con and not Str? The class has space for some more ability increases (see below).
Added a +1 Str bonus on 4th and 6th levels

-4th level kinda empty. Tongues isn't that useful of an ability.
Moved Charm Person to 4th and mirror Image to 3rd. And charm person improves to Charm Monster at 8th. (as a sorcerer as same level)

Dralnu

2010-08-03, 02:26 PM

May I request the Nimblewright from MM2? I've always wanted to play as one.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-03, 05:38 PM

May I request the Nimblewright from MM2? I've always wanted to play as one.

Hmm. I might try this out once I'm done with the Styx dragon unless Gorgondantess wants to try it out. He's done a few other constructs so far.

So, two things.

1. I made some changes to Styx dragon. It gets Devil chills on its tail blades at 13th level and the saves on the disease are equal to the dragon's breath weapon now.
2. Is our goal to just stat out every official Wotc monster ever?

Oslecamo

2010-08-03, 05:47 PM

1. I made some changes to Styx dragon. It gets Devil chills on its tail blades at 13th level and the saves on the disease are equal to the dragon's breath weapon now.

Hmm, what's exactly the reasoning behind devil chills? It's suposed to be a devil-only disease after all.

2. Is our goal to just stat out every official Wotc monster ever?

Yes. One of the reasons I created this thread was to satisfy my ocasional homebrewing urges. I never had any hope of actualy doing the hundreds of oficial D&D monsters out there by myself so it would always keep me busy, but with you and the others helping it's now a realistic (altough still distant) goal.

We currently have more than 80 monsters done. I don't see any reason to stop while there's inspiration and more monsters to convert.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-03, 06:18 PM

Bleah- MM2? 3.0 unupdated crap.:smallyuk:
I'll give it a looksee, later. Away from books right now, though.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-03, 06:50 PM

Hmm, what's exactly the reasoning behind devil chills? It's suposed to be a devil-only disease after all.
.

Only disease I saw in the DMG related to the nine hells. Stygian wasting oddly isn't in there despite it saying so in the Draconomicon.

I just figured I should increase it's disease related attacks a bit.

Edit: forgot to address this.
Bleah- MM2? 3.0 unupdated crap.:smallyuk:
I'll give it a looksee, later. Away from books right now, though.

If you don't want to I'm willing to.

Vauron

2010-08-03, 10:21 PM

Its not pointing to the list of diseases, its actually pointing to the rules for diseases.

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-03, 11:04 PM

Here's my latest work

Sahuagin
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/crafty-cultist/sahuagin.jpg
Sahuagin Hunter
HD:d10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Blood frenzy, Sea born, Body of the deep, Speak with sharks, Rake, Aquaticic superiority, +1str, +1int
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Tidal sense, Hunter Instict, +1str, +1dex[/table]
Skills: 4+ int mod. A Sahuagin's class skills are Handle Animal, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Spot and Survival.
Proficiencies: a Sahuagin is proficient with all simple wepons as well as nets and tridents.
features:
Body of the deep: The Sahuagin loses all other racial bonuses, and gains monstrous humanoid traits, a base speed of 30 feet, a swim speed of 60ft, two claw attacks and one bite attack dealing 1d4 damage each. He also gains a natural armor bonus equal to his own Con modifier.

Sea born: a Sahuagin can only survive out of water for a number of hours equal to Half his constitution score. In addition, a sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude Save or become Fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

Speak with Sharks: a sahuagin can comunicate telepathically with sharks at a range of 150ft. Sharks will not attack a sahuagin unless provoked and the sahuagin gains a +2 bonus on handle animal checks to train sharks, with an additional +1 bonus for every 4HD

Rake: If it is grappling or fighting underwater, a sahuagin gains two rake attacks that deal 1d4+1/2 str mod in damage

Blood frenzy: A sahuagin that takes damage in combat can fly into a rage on its next turn as a free action, gaining a +2 bonus to strength and constitution and taking a -2 penalty to AC until it or its opponent are dead. This ability is useable once per day at first level with an additional use per 4HD. If the sahuagin gains the barbarian rage ability, the bonuses and penalties granted by rage stack with those granted by blood frenzy

Aquatic superiority: a sahuagin fighting in water deep enough to swim in gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 20ft by which their swim speed exceeds that of their opponent.

Tidal Sense: At second level, a sahuagin learns to read the flow of water, gaining a +2 bonus on hide, listen, move silently and spot with an additional +1 bonus per 4hd, as well as blindsense 30ft, while underwater.

Hunter instict: A second level sahuagin learns gains gains a favoured enemy, as the ranger ability, but with a +3 bonus if the chosen creature type is humanoid. If the sahuagin takes levels in ranger, they stack add their sahuagin level for purposes of the favoured enemy bonus, and the increased bonus for choosing a humanoid racial enemy applies to later choices.

Sahuagin Preist
HD:d6
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Sea born, Body of the deep, Rake, Speak with sharks, Sea preistess, +1wis, +1int
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Tidal sense, Tidal pulse, +1str, +1wis[/table]
Skills: 2+ int mod. A Sahuagin's class skills are Concentration, Listen, Knowledge(arcana, religion), Profession, Spellcraft, Spot and Survival.
Proficiencies: a Sahuagin is proficient with all simple wepons as well as nets and tridents.
features:
Body of the deep: The Sahuagin loses all other racial bonuses, and gains monstrous humanoid traits, a base speed of 30 feet, a swim speed of 60ft, two claw attacks and one bite attack dealing 1d4 damage each. He also gains a natural armor bonus equal to her own Con modifier.

Sea born: a Sahuagin can only survive out of water for a number of hours equal to half her constitution score. In addition, a sahuagin fully immersed in fresh water must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude Save or become Fatigued. Even on a success, it must repeat the save attempt every 10 minutes it remains immersed.

Speak with Sharks: a sahuagin can comunicate telepathically with sharks at a range of 150ft. Sharks will not attack a sahuagin unless provoked and the sahuagin gains a +4 bonus on handle animal checks to train sharks.

Rake: If it is grappling or fighting underwater, a sahuagin gains two rake attacks that deal 1d4+1/2 str mod in damage

Sea preistess: A sahuagin can cast spells as a cleric of their sahuagin level, Including domains.

Tidal Sense: At second level, a sahuagin learns to read the flow of water, gaining a +2 bonus on hide, listen, move silently and spot with an additional +1 bonus for every 4hd, as well as blindsense 30ft, while underwater.

Tidal Pulse: A second level sahuagin can sacrifice a prepared spell slot to produce an underwater pulse. This pulse can take the form of a 5ft/caster level cone or a 10ft/caster level line. Anything within the area takes 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage per level of the spell slot sacrificed.

Racial feat
Sahuagin mutant
Prerequisites: Con 13+, HD8+
benefit: you gain an extra set of arms. these additional arms allow for two additional claw attacks or can be used to hold wepons.

Notes
Since the role a sahuagin plays within their culture is determined by gender, I thought the class(es) should reflect that. Male sahuagin are skilled hunters and warriors and female sahuagin are healers and religious leaders

Mystic Muse

2010-08-04, 02:16 AM

I have to say, I kind of feel like the planar dragons are a bit overloaded compared to their MM counterparts. In the Draconomicon they get SLAs but they don't get any spellcasting. Should I give them a bunch of SLAs but make it so the players have to choose between the spellcasting and SLAs or are they really not as powerful as they seem to me?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 02:18 AM

Mystic Muse

2010-08-04, 02:26 AM

Well, I donno about your other dragons... but the styx dragon can't fly. That's plenty balancing, in my book.

True, but look at the pyroclastic.

Oh, and I only have one other dragon. For now. I'm looking at the rust and Radiant dragons next (The black dragon is a bit out of my element.)

Volthawk

2010-08-04, 03:42 AM

Bleah- MM2? 3.0 unupdated crap.:smallyuk:
I'll give it a looksee, later. Away from books right now, though.

Well, there is an update available. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)

Frog Dragon

2010-08-04, 06:27 AM

I gave the arcanaloth a heavy overhaul.

AustontheGreat1

2010-08-04, 09:21 AM

GRIFFON

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eo_griffon_med.jpg

Class

GRIFFON

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Griffon Body, Scent, +1 Dex, +1 Str

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Talons, +1 Dex, +1 Str

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Pounce, Vigil, +1 Dex, +1 Str

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Wings, Growth, +1 Str[/table]

Class Skills: (4 + Int. Mod.) x4 at first level. The Griffons class skills are Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, and Spot.

Class Features

Proficiencies: Griffons are proficient only with their own natural weapons. They are not proficient with any armor.

Griffon Body: At first level, the Griffon loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and becomes a magical beast with the following traits.

• Medium Size.
• 40ft. base land speed.
• One natural bite attack, dealing 1d6 + Str. Mod.
• Dark Vision 60ft.
• Low-light Vision
• Griffons are four legged creatures and do not possess hands or limbs capable of fine manipulation. Therefore, Griffons cannot wield weapons or manipulate objects.
• Griffons cannot speak but they can understand common and an additional number of languages of their choosing for ever point of intelligence modifier.

Additionally, the Griffon recieves a bonus to its AC equal to its constitution score in the form of a natural armor bonus.

Scent (Ex): At second level, the Griffon gains the scent ability.

Ability Increases: A griffon receives a permanent increase to its strength score at each Griffon level as well as a permanent increase to its dexterity score at levels one, two, and three. At 4th level, assuming the griffon has taken all 4 levels available, the increases total at +4 Strength and +3 Dexterity.

Talons (Ex): At second level, the Griffon gains 2 claw attacks which deal 1d4 + strength modifier damage each. Additionally, when grappling, the Griffon drag the sharp talons across the flesh of the opponent. A Griffon has 2 rake attacks which deal 1d6 + Strength modifier damage each.

Vigil (Ex): Griffons have extremely keen eyesight and hearing. At 3rd level, a Griffon receives a racial bonus to spot and listen checks equal to ½ its HD.

Pounce (Ex): Griffons are lighting quick and ferocious. At 3rd level, whenever a griffon makes a charge, he may follow with a full attack.

Wings (Ex): At 4th level, a Griffon’s wings have developed fully and the Griffon may now fly at a speed of 40ft. with average maneuverability. The speed at which a Griffon can fly increases by 10ft. for every 3 HD the Griffon possesses, excluding the first three.

Growth: At 4th level, a Griffon’s size increases by one category.

Stuff
Another attempt at one of the classic monsters. Lets see how bad I messed up.

MrLich

2010-08-04, 10:21 AM

Well I think the Griffon looks pretty good but I have a hard time telling balance. I greatly appreciate your efforts, thanks for giving it a shot.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 12:34 PM

GRIFFON

You didn't list HD size.
I don't know that a high # of skill points is appropriate. Being that Griffons are more of a dumb beast, it might be more appropriate to de-emphasize skills and emphasize stats more.
Balance, Climb and Move Silently kind of stand out on the skill list. Balance is nigh useless (The Griffon gets sizeable bonuses vs. trip for being four legged & later, being large, and later on it flies, anyways), Climb is questionable (I can't envision a Griffon scaling a cliff) and Move Silently is not so fitting (If you want to emulate a great cat, it might be better to have hide but not move silently, so it is encouraged to lay in wait).
Indeed, in 'Griffon Body', I'd make a special note that it is four legged.
And give it natural armor. No armor proficiency + no natural armor is pretty crippling for a melee beast.
Scent description is overlong. It's a core ability like regeneration, so the class doesn't need an involved description any more than the troll does. 'Generally within 30 feet' is kind of strange too. Set hard limit.
Stat bonuses could stand to be bigger. Remember, the Griffon is unable to speak or use tools, so it has to do a great deal with what it has. (It can't use command word magic items, weapons, etc). The Griffon gets a lot of abilities that melee characters like, so this balances it out. I'd say definitely a bit more in the way of stats, but don't go overboard.
Grace is really out of place. Neither of the skill bonuses are terribly useful, and in truth, I'm not so sure what the intention is with the 'running start' thing.
Flight comes 1 level too early. It's exceedingly powerful at third level. The standard is for it to show up at fourth-fifth.
Growth arguably shows up a bit too early. If we're acknowledging that the griffon is rather limited by lack of hands and speech, it can debatably get away with this.
I would argue Vigil and Pounce should show up earlier. Grace could maybe be reworked. Flight should show up later.
I'd also attach the Rake attacks to the acquisition of claw attacks, not pounce. Also, note that the Griffon's Rake is not an additional attack (or two additional attacks), but a bonus when grappling. It's a minor bonus that the Griffon could earn at second level, when it gets claws.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 03:01 PM

Creature of Legend
Prestige/Template Monster Class
Monster Manual II
http://i35.tinypic.com/2b4kf7.jpg

Prerequisites:
To become a Creature of Legend, a creature must fulfill the following requirements:
4 or more HD.
At least one level in a monster class.
Any creature type but humanoid (Monstrous humanoid is ok), undead, construct, ooze or swarm.
Must have defeated an opponent of a CR greater than one's own HD in single combat, without the intervention of allies.

The DM is encouraged to use his or her own discretion in interpreting whether the potential Creature of Legend had 'assistance'. In general, one or two borrowed pieces of equipment or any spells/effects that would last for a week or longer (such as a persisted magic fang) are not considered assistance, nor is having allies keep lesser minions of your opponent at bay. Conversely, examples such as allies actively contributing with short term buffs before the battle, flanking, adding debuffs to the opponent, controlling the battlefield or helping to damage the opponent would be considered interference and would void the possibility of that encounter allowing entry to this class.

HD: D8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0*|+0*|+0*| Body of Legend, Fabled Strength, Fabled Power
2nd|+1|+0*|+0*|+0*| Legendary Strength, Legendary Power
[/table]
Skill Points 4+Int per level
Class Skill Skills: As Base Creature

Proficiencies: Creatures of Legend do not gain any new proficiencies.

Body of Legend: Unlike other monster classes, the creature's original racial traits are retained. The Creature of Legend gains Outsider traits, if it did not already have them, with the augmented subtype if necessary. Their native plane is the plane they call home.

Fabled Strength: Creatures of Legend are touched by a great power, removing many of their minor imperfections and creating some aesthetic changes (it might grow decorative horns, patterns on its hide, scales or skin, glowing eyes). There is no mechanical benefit to these aesthetic changes.

A creature of legend has an added +1 Natural AC (this stacks) for every two HD they have, and good save progression for the saving throw of the player's choice.

Further, for every 3HD the creature has in total, pick one material: the creature's natural attacks are considered to be forged of any and all of the listed materials for the purposes of bypassing DR. Alternately, the player may elect to be able to deal standard damage to incorporeal opponents with their natural attacks, or take a +1 bonus on attack rolls.

For every 5HD the creature has, pick one of the four alignments (Good, Evil, Law, Chaos): the creature's attacks (note: not just natural attacks) are considered to be of that alignment for the purposes of bypassing DR and other defenses.

Fabled Power: Creatures of Legend are blessed with an increasing number of special qualities, as the powers that be take more notice of them. With the first level in this class, the creature may select one of these powers. This choice is made once and requires a limited wish, miracle or true wish to change:
Enhanced power for each of the creature's special attacks and spell like abilities, increasing the DCs by +1, +1 for every 8HD of the creature.
Fast Healing equal to 1/2 the creature's HD.
Greater damage for each of the creature's natural attacks, causing them to deliver damage as if they were increased in step by one size category.
Immunities to two of the following: acid, electricity, fire, cold, poison or polymorphing. You may take this ability a second time, choosing 2 additional things from the list.
Immunity to Mind Affecting effects.
Reflective hide, causing the creature to be affected by a continuous effect not dissimilar to the spell 'Spell Turning'. At the beginning of each encounter, a DM should roll 1d3 and consult the table below, following the appropriate column for your d3 result and current HD:
{table]HD|1 (on 1d3)|2 (on 1d3)|3 (on 1d3)

5-6|
0|
1|
2
7-8|
1|
2|
3
9-10|
2|
3|
4
11-12|
3|
4|
5
13-14|
4|
5|
6
15-16|
5|
6|
7
17-18|
6|
7|
8
19-20|
7|
8|
9
[/table]
This is determines the efficacy of the effect for the duration of the encounter, and the result should be kept private from the player. The reflectiveness of the hide doesn't decrease as the creature absorbs spells as it does with Spell Turning. The effect works only on spells that have you as a target, and reflects them back on the caster. In the event of spells that are of a higher level than whatever value you obtained at the beginning of the encounter, the damage is divided appropriately between you and your opponent. Similarly, if you are targeted by an effect that doesn't deal damage, roll a 1d100 to determine whether it affects you or your opponents, with the values above in mind. (ie. If you had a 6 and your opponent cast an 8th level spell at you, you'd reflect 6/8 (or 3/4, 75%) of the effects back at the caster.)
Alternately, pick two of the following:
Increased damage for each of your natural attacks, as listed above, but only if you have & can obtain 2 or less such attacks. If you gain more natural attacks at a later date, the other choice made her becomes void. (ie. If you have 2 claw attacks and pick this option + flight, you lose flight if & when you gained a bite attack.)
DR/material, with the material being iron, silver or adamantium, equal to 1/2 the Creature's HD. If a Creature already has DR from other sources, increase it by +5.
SR equal to 11+HD. If a Creature already has SR from other sources, increase it by +5.
All seeing, allowing the creature to see invisible foes and see in even magical darkness. Increase the range of the creature's vision by 50%.
The creature grows a pair of wings, giving it flight equal to 150% of its base land speed at average maneuverability. If the creature already has wings, it grows an additional, matching pair, giving them additional flight speed of +10' per 5HD, one step of increased maneuverability and their choice of one of the following feats: Hover or Wingover (SRD) or Aerial Reflexes, Aerial Superiority, Born Flyer, Diving Charge, Flyby Attack, Improved Flight or Winged Warrior (Races of the Wild).

Legendary Strength: At second level, the Creature of Legend is enhanced by the power that thrums through them. Any DR becomes DR/-, they gain +10' to each mode of movement available to them, and the Creature of Legend's statistics are increased: The CoL gets +4 to its lowest ability score (Or +2 to two ability scores tied for last place) and the player's choice of +1 to three different attributes or +2 to a single attribute.

Legendary Power: A second level Creature of Legend is truly awe inspiring, and bards will tell tales of how it has abilities not seen in others of its kind. The player may select one additional Fabled Power as listed above and one Legendary Power chosen from the list below (This choice is permanent, but may be altered with a limited wish, miracle, wish):
Breath Weapon - The Creature of Legend can exhale a terrible breath weapon, scouring flesh from their foes. The breath weapon is a cone extending 30 feet in front of the Creature, delivering 1d6 damage/HD, with a reflex save (DC 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Con bonus). The Creature may choose one of the following damage types (Fire, Lightning, Acid, Cold) or select a rarer damage type (Sound, Force) with the damage reduced to 1d4/HD. Once the choice of damage type is made, it is permanent. Once the breath weapon is used, the Creature of Legend must wait 1d4 rounds to use it again.

Advancement: The range of this attack increases by 5' for every two HD of the creature and the Creature of Legend may select one metabreath feat for every 8HD it has.
Frightful Presence - When the Creature of Legend makes a loud sound (roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form), it inspires terror in all creatures within 20' that have a CR lower than it's own HD. Each potentially affected opponent must make a Will save (DC is 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Cha bonus) or become shaken. A foe that fails by 4 or more is Frightened, and a creature that fails by 8 or more is Panicked. If a creature fails multiple subsequent saves, their condition worsens by a minimum of one step. Once a foe has successfully saved against the effect they are immune for the remainder of the day.

Advancement: The range increases by 10' for every five HD of the Creature. At 12HD, the creature's roar vibrates with raw power. Treat this as a standard action, with the radius and DC listed above. Foes in the area must make a save as normal, but foes who would normally be immune by virtue of being mindless must make an initiative roll to oppose the check or take no actions that turn, as their senses are overwhelmed by the sheer presence of their foe. Once a foe has been affected by this, they cannot be affected again that encounter.
Poison - Venom seeps and pools down from between the Creature of Legend's teeth in a caustic drool. If it does not already have a bite attack, it gains one dealing 1d4+½ Str damage, with the attack damage scaling upwards or downwards for every size category the creature is larger or smaller than medium. The creature delivers a poison with any successful bites. The poison is Injury based and deals 1d6 Str damage in initial and secondary damage. The DC is equal to 10 + ½ CoL's HD + CoL's Con bonus. In the event that the creature already has a way of delivering another kind of poison via. natural attack, they may add this poison to that natural attack instead.

Advancement: For every 4HD after 4th, the venoms of the Creature of Legend becomes that much more terrible. Pick one of the following:
The save DC increases by +2
The poison inflicts +2 Str damage as part of the initial and secondary effects.
The poison is corrosive and reduces opponents' AC by 1d4 on a successful attack with your bite. To undo the effect, the armor must be repaired (for removable armor) or healed like ability damage (for natural armor).
The bite damage is considered to be vile damage and 1/3rd of the Str is ability drain, instead (round up). Choosing this option multiple times adds +1d4 vile damage to the bite and makes an added one third of the Str into ability drain.
The poison inflicts a negative level as secondary damage.
The poison is so potent it will even affect creatures that would normally be immune, sapping whatever kinds of energy sustain the creature, even negative or magical energies. Golems, undead and creatures that are normally immune to poison are affected. Such creatures take half the ability damage they normally would.
The poison persists in the victim's system for long durations, acting much like a disease. After the secondary damage, the victim must make another saving throw every minute. Failure means they take ability damage again. Two successful saves against the poison (including initial and secondary damage) means the victim has successfully shaken off the poison's effect.
Raging Blood - When the Creature of Legend is damaged by a piercing or slashing weapon, elementally infused blood splashes onto its opponents in a 5' cone, dealing 1d4 elemental damage (Fire, Cold, Electric or Acid - this choice is made once and applies thereafter.

In addition, the storm of energy surging through the Creature of Legend makes it nigh unstoppable. The Creature of Legend gains one Raging Blood Surge that it may expend to bypass the effects of a failed save or to bypass an obstacle (such as a force cage, a pit, or a cliff). When this ability is triggered, requiring a standard action, the Creature of Legend enters a rage, shaking off the spell or ability effect or using a demonstration of elemental strength to tear past the offending obstacle (leaping up a cliff or across a pit, bashing through a force wall), as part of the action. Alternately, it may use the Raging Blood Surge to continue fighting after falling to negative hitpoints, which allows it to continue fighting until it reaches a number of negative hitpoints equal to three times its Con score. When the Raging Blood Surge ends, which occurs after 1 minute or at the creature's whim, the Creature of Legend returns to 1 hitpoint and becomes fatigued. The Raging Blood Surge is made available again when the Creature of Legend either defeats an opponent (or a collection of opponents) of equal or greater CR than itself or when it returns to maximum hitpoints. As such, it is possible for the creature to regain and use multiple surges in a single encounter.

Advancement: The ability does another 1d4 elemental damage for every 3HD the Creature of Legend has. The cone increases in size by 5' for every 10HD the Creature of Legend has.
Spells - Provided it does not already have divine casting or divine caster advancement from another source, the Creature of Legend can now spontaneously cast divine spells, with the ability to cast each spell known once a day. For spells known, the Creature of Legend must pick two domains, and can access any spell of a level that's no more than 1/2 it's HD. (A level 6 creature could cast up to level 3 spells).

Should the creature take levels in a divine spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Creature of Legend levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day. This does not apply retroactively; An 8th level Creature of Legend acquiring one level of cleric would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 8th level cleric to 9th level cleric, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st to 8th level cleric.

Comments
My design intent in the CoL was finding a way to advance some of the existing monsters so they retained their status as 'monsters' and so the core monsters kept their natural vulnerabilities or qualities, while allowing room for them to be more viable.

The Fabled Strength and Legendary Strength abilities are primarily ways to shore up weaknesses vs. higher level encounters, giving creatures with various holes in their design (ie. a less than stellar DR/Magic) to shore up those holes. Similarly, creatures who only have natural attacks and the inability to wield weapons (Say, the Griffon, above) can now affect higher level enemies with more obscure DRs.

I wanted the stat bonuses to feel 'legendary', so I tried to make them big without allowing the player to stack any one stat. As is, you get a sizeable bonus to your dump stat (which is largely thematic, as the creature becomes more perfect, losing weaknesses as they become something truly awesome) and either a fair spread out bonus or a smaller, focused bonus.

Changelog
August 4th, 2010:
Slight clarifications in the class entry 'defeat a stronger foe' prerequisite.
Added the option of being able to strike incorporeal opponents or just gaining a + to attack rolls, in Fabled Strength.
Changed the bonus to DCs to 1 + 1 per 8HD. Made it so it doesn't affect spells.
Removed fear from the list of possible immunities.
Changed SR to 16+HD
Changed some of the Legendary Powers to make them more versatile and tempting. Breath Weapon now grants some metabreath feats to scale up a little more later on. Poison now offers some choices that let you do vile damage, ability drain, more damage, raise DCs, bestow negative levels, melt armor or affect foes who are normally immune to poison. Terrifying presence now has utility against mindless foes and raging blood scales up fairly dramatically.
The Spells option of the Legendary Powers is altered to be 1/2 HD rather than Current HD-3.
Second batch of changes, August 4th, 2010:
SR changed back to 11+HD, and merged with DR. Now offers stacking benefits with other sources, just in case.
Immunity to mind affecting effects is now a standalone ability pick.
Some of the weaker choices are now part of a 2 for 1 package deal on the list. This includes improved natural attack size, but only if you have 2 or less natural attacks.
Poison now progresses more swiftly, from every 6HD to every 4HD after 4th.
Raging Blood now offers a more active ability, the Raging Blood Surge, which lets the creature tear past many obstacles or ignore failed saving throws, so it can keep on fighting.
Spellcasting changed to Oslecamo's suggested domain method.
Third batch of changes, August 4th, 2010:
Broke DR and SR apart again. Sigh. They're now choices in the 2 for 1 deals.
August 10th, 2010:
Updated the poison progression and tidied it up.
August 15th, 2010:
Edited to specify the armor bonus is natural and what their native plane is.
October 10th, 2010:
Reduced the Raging Blood elemental damage from 2d4 per 3HD to 1d4 per 3HD.
Revised the spellcasting ability from the ability to cast per day as a sorcerer, with spells known from three domain lists (to casting each spell once a day, from 2 domain lists).
October 11th, 2010:
Reworded a bit in the spellcasting ability, so it's a little clearer.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 03:21 PM

I like the creature of legend... but it's a bit off. Let's see why!:smallbiggrin:
*Body of legend: What happens if you're a construct? Or an undead? You suddenly change to outsider? That's a bit... iffy, in my book.
*Fabled strength: so, for the materials, what do you choose at 12 HD once you've already chosen cold iron, silver, and adamantium? Byeshk? What do you choose after that?
*Fabled Power: Okay, let's go blow by blow here.
-Define "partial action". I know D&D like the back of my hand, and I've never heard that term.
-Enchanced power is a bit too powerful, as far as I'm concerned. As a caster, this would be a fantastic 1 level dip, for +5 to DCs by 20 HD. WOW. That's FANTASTIC. Trust me, pumping DCs can get really scary, really quick.
-Immunities: Why put fear there if you're going to put mind-affecting? I believe fear is considered mind-affecting. And, hell, mind-affecting trumps everything else on that list.
*Reflective Hide: Scale it. I'd say spell levels equal to HD: so, at 5 HD, you have 5 spell levels. That's fine, isn't it? But getting a 7 spell level spell turning at 20 isn't so amazing.
Also: SR? Really? Pretty much all the other options trump SR.

*Legendary Strength: +4 to lowest ability score... huh. I don't like it: that can either be really useless or really useful. I'd make that an "or" choice.

*Legendary Power: It's sad that some of these abilities are worse than fables power. Spells is pretty much the only really good choice: poison is meh (and mostly useless by level 20), frightful presence and breath weapon are pretty good, but still not that valuable, and raging blood is going to be potent at level 5, and useless at level 20 (scale it!). I mean, come on, 17th level cleric casting by level 20? This is a ridiculously good choice for your last 2 levels just because of that. I'd put the cleric casting at 1/2 HD (yes, 1/2 HD, that's still pretty damn useful), and let them key it off of any mental ability score.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 04:55 PM

I like the creature of legend... but it's a bit off. Let's see why!:smallbiggrin:

Woo.

*Body of legend: What happens if you're a construct? Or an undead? You suddenly change to outsider? That's a bit... iffy, in my book.

The augmented type doesn't cover that?

I'll just specify disallowed types.

*Fabled strength: so, for the materials, what do you choose at 12 HD once you've already chosen cold iron, silver, and adamantium? Byeshk? What do you choose after that?

Hrm. I just figured you'd take more obscure materials as you saw fit. I'll add another option.

*Fabled Power: Okay, let's go blow by blow here.

For the record, I'm aware that many choices are subpar, but I was trying to be faithful to the options provided by the original template. If you have suggestions as to where a given entry can be rebalanced, I'm open to changing them.

-Define "partial action". I know D&D like the back of my hand, and I've never heard that term.

Taken verbatim from the entry. I'm familiar with the intention of the wording, but I'll clarify.

-Enchanced power is a bit too powerful, as far as I'm concerned. As a caster, this would be a fantastic 1 level dip, for +5 to DCs by 20 HD. WOW. That's FANTASTIC. Trust me, pumping DCs can get really scary, really quick.

I agree. The text in the original template was just a flat +4. Which would be scary at level 5. I wrote it up as listed as just a thought exercise on how I'd rebalance it, and then moved on without really thinking about it. I'll reduce its effect and stop it from applying to spells. That way, it emphasizes the monster using its own natural abilities.

-Immunities: Why put fear there if you're going to put mind-affecting? I believe fear is considered mind-affecting. And, hell, mind-affecting trumps everything else on that list.

Was in the original template, which I copied from. One wouldn't take it, except in the most bizarre situations, but I'll remove it to help idiot-proof the class.

*Reflective Hide: Scale it. I'd say spell levels equal to HD: so, at 5 HD, you have 5 spell levels. That's fine, isn't it? But getting a 7 spell level spell turning at 20 isn't so amazing.

Hrm. I think that's too good. It basically winds up being a better SR, since you've got the potential to turn back spells on unwitting foes.

Also: SR? Really? Pretty much all the other options trump SR.

*Shrug* Was one of the template options. Didn't see any reason not to include it. What about SR 16+HD?

Legendary Strength: +4 to lowest ability score... huh. I don't like it: that can either be really useless or really useful. I'd make that an "or" choice.

My original plan was a flat charisma bonus, to represent how the creature is just that awesome and how it has such presence. But I didn't want a huge bonus to cha based creatures. In general, it's just a bonus where most people wouldn't make the investment, amending one's greatest flaws. I feel it's fitting with the class concept, and will only make a notable difference for the most MAD classes.

*Legendary Power: It's sad that some of these abilities are worse than fables power. Spells is pretty much the only really good choice: poison is meh (and mostly useless by level 20), frightful presence and breath weapon are pretty good, but still not that valuable, and raging blood is going to be potent at level 5, and useless at level 20 (scale it!). I mean, come on, 17th level cleric casting by level 20? This is a ridiculously good choice for your last 2 levels just because of that. I'd put the cleric casting at 1/2 HD (yes, 1/2 HD, that's still pretty damn useful), and let them key it off of any mental ability score.

I'll buff some of the existing powers and take your suggestion of 1/2 HD casting.

Changes made, with the above noted. Changelog at the bottom of the post. Thanks for the feedback.

Oslecamo

2010-08-04, 05:11 PM

Frog Dragon:Very good overall of the arcanoloth but 15th level kinda empty.

Crafty Cultist:Ok, an interesting take...But why the extra set of arms? Also scaling bonus please. And allow the male to choose what kind of thing it likes to hunt like a proper ranger.

AustontheGreat1:Good job there! However I think it could have a good fort save. And 2nd level looks kinda empty so I would put an +1 to Dex there.

Hyudra:Excellent original take on the Monster of Legend, but as Gorgondantess pointed out the abilities are too dispar.

At first level extra partial action is made of win. At second level cleric casting trumps everything else. Some sugestions:

-DR and SR as a single choice, and stacking with already existing DR and SR in some way.
-Mind affecting is worth at least two of the other immunities.
-All seeing, flight, fast healing and greater damage just too weak by themselves, could probably be condensed into a single one with some tweaks.
-Instead of "cast as cleric" I would do "Cast as sorceror but chooses one-three domains and can only cast spells from those domains with his slots". Casts as cleric of half level just doesn't seem that atractive to me as you can't hope to bypass SR and your buffs will be easily dispelled.
-Poison kinda weak. Could be condesned with frightfull presence.
-Raging blood just weak. Should be combined with breath weapon.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 05:25 PM

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 05:25 PM

Hyudra:Excellent original take on the Monster of Legend, but as Gorgondantess pointed out the abilities are too dispar.

They're disparate because of flaws in the original class as written. MMII was not the best written WotC material around. I'll continue updating stuff so the individual features are worthwhile choices unto themselves.

-DR and SR as a single choice, and stacking with already existing DR and SR in some way.

Alright.

-Mind affecting is worth at least two of the other immunities.

I'll change that.

-All seeing, flight, fast healing and greater damage just too weak by themselves, could probably be condensed into a single one with some tweaks.

I've got an idea for that.

-Instead of "cast as cleric" I would do "Cast as sorceror but chooses one-three domains and can only cast spells from those domains with his slots". Casts as cleric of half level just doesn't seem that atractive to me as you can't hope to bypass SR and your buffs will be easily dispelled.

I'll work with it.

-Poison kinda weak. Could be condesned with frightfull presence.

Just for clarification - is this in keeping with the updates to poison I recently made? (the various upgrades?)

-Raging blood just weak. Should be combined with breath weapon.

Again, this is in keeping with the changes I made to how it advances? Would really rather not condense it. I'll see what I can do to tweak it.

Oslecamo

2010-08-04, 05:33 PM

They're disparate because of flaws in the original class as written. MMII was not the best written WotC material around. I'll continue updating stuff so the individual features are worthwhile choices unto themselves.

Just for clarification - is this in keeping with the updates to poison I recently made? (the various upgrades?)

Hmm, very good job with that poison upgrades. I would just sugest you get the upgrades a little faster, like every 4 HD. Kyuubi, perhaps you could add some of this stuff to your Styx dragon?

Again, this is in keeping with the changes I made to how it advances? Would really rather not condense it. I'll see what I can do to tweak it.

The problem with the blood it's that it's a reactive ability that isn't even assured to work every ecounter. It would be great for dealing with melee minions, but otherwise there's plenty of monsters that won't be fazed by it, because they're either dealing bludgeoding damage or attacking you with spells/SLAs or sniping you from afar or are just resistant/immune to the element in question.

To make it a worthwile choice it should trigger on a bigger variety of situations and perhaps even be useable in an offensive way (thus combining it with breath weapon).

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 06:00 PM

Ohhh.... oh, my. That quickening is ridonkulously good. I honestly wouldn't take anything else, no matter what I'm playing. Beg beefy attacker? Lets you make a move action before you full attack. Caster? 2 spells in one turn FTW. Skirmisher? Move action, attack, move action. It's like spring attack on crack. Change it to something like... +10' speed, and +1 attack on a full attack action. Then maybe cut it into two abilities, where one does the above, and the other one grants an additional swift/immediate action every round.

Yeah. Maybe works for a boss monster a DM wants to upgrade with the template, but it's pretty bugnuts crazy when you let loose with it. For the record, though, it did specify attacks, not just any standard action, so it wouldn't work with spellcasting.

I'm too lazy to try and make it workable, so I've deleted it.

...

Changes made:
SR changed back to 11+HD, and merged with DR. Now offers stacking benefits with other sources, just in case.
Immunity to mind affecting effects is now a standalone ability pick.
Some of the weaker choices are now part of a 2 for 1 package deal on the list. This includes improved natural attack size, but only if you have 2 or less natural attacks.
Poison now progresses more swiftly, from every 6HD to every 4HD after 4th.
Raging Blood now offers a more active option in addition to the dangerous blood: the Raging Blood Surge, which lets the creature tear past many obstacles or ignore failed saving throws, or ignore the effects of unconsciousness so it can keep on fighting. It's refresh conditions can allow it to be used multiple times per encounter, so it's a good option if you really want to stay in the fight.
Spellcasting changed to Oslecamo's suggested domain method.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 06:05 PM

Move the DR and SR into the second abilities (from which you can choose 2). That way there's actually some versatility there.:smalltongue:

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 06:06 PM

Done.

10x Done.

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-04, 07:47 PM

Crafty Cultist:Ok, an interesting take...But why the extra set of arms? Also scaling bonus please. And allow the male to choose what kind of thing it likes to hunt like a proper ranger.
[B]

Sahuagin mutants grow extra arms, would making it dependent on an ability score be more appropriate?(extra set of arms at 16 con for example) bonuses now scale and the male can choose a favoured enemy(but gains better bonuses if the choice is human)

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 07:58 PM

I meant to put the DR & SR into the "choose 2" area, but split them apart: both of them are more powerful than any other ability.

Also... y'know, most of these creatures already have DR. Might want to have it add a certain amount to that.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 08:06 PM

Sahuagin mutants grow extra arms, would making it dependent on an ability score be more appropriate?(extra set of arms at 16 con for example) bonuses now scale and the male can choose a favoured enemy(but gains better bonuses if the choice is human)

Humans are already a pretty great choice for favored enemies (most campaigns, you mostly fight humans). I wouldn't offer better bonuses.

Plus, my favorite interpretation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/A_World_at_War#Borderlands_of_the_Sahuagin:_Sore_W inners) of Sahaugin doesn't have humans as their most hated enemy, really.

I meant to put the DR & SR into the "choose 2" area, but split them apart: both of them are more powerful than any other ability.

Alright. Suggestion implemented.

Also... y'know, most of these creatures already have DR. Might want to have it add a certain amount to that.

It already does. +5 to DR or SR if you already have it.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 09:26 PM

Wyvern
http://i34.tinypic.com/2qknh3q.jpg

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+2|+2|+0| Wyvern Body, Sting, +1 Dex
2nd|+1|+3|+3|+0| Leathery Wings, Weave, +1 Str, +1 Con
3rd|+2|+3|+3|+0| Lashing Tail, Scent, +1 Dex
4th|+3|+4|+4|+0| Flight, Talons, +1 Str, +1 Con
5th|+3|+4|+4|+0| Growth, Tail Slam, +1 Dex
6th|+4|+5|+5|+0| Legendary Venom, Wing Beat, +1 Str, +1 Con
[/table]
Skill Points 2+Int per level
Class Skill Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Proficiencies: The Wyvern is proficient only with its own natural attacks.

Wyvern Body: The Wyvern loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Dragon traits, giving it Darkvision 60', low light vision and immunity to magical sleep and paralysis effects. Wyverns are initially medium sized creatures with 20' land movement and both a 1d10+Str damage Bite and a Sting that deals 1d4+Str damage alongside an injury based poison (See below). Either the Sting or the Bite can be the Wyvern's primary weapon at a given point in time, but both can't be the primary weapon at the same time (So whichever attack mode isn't chosen as primary suffers the standard -5 penalty on attack rolls). The Wyvern has wings, but isn't initially able to fly. Wyverns have a racial bonus to Spot equal to ½ their HD and Natural Armor equal to their Con.

Wyverns are distinct from their greater dragon cousins in that they lack foretalons and their hindtalons do not have the necessary dexterity to wield objects, effectively rendering them incapable of performing fine manipulation (such as holding items, using a doorknob or performing somatic gestures). Wyverns can speak Draconic, with other languages possible via. intelligence bonus, as normal, but usually don’t bother with anything more elaborate than a loud hiss or a deep-throated growl much like that of a bull alligator.

Attribute Bonus: The Wyvern gains +1 to Dexterity at every odd numbered level in the class. With even numbered levels, the Wyvern gains +1 Str and +1 Con, for a total bonus of +3 Str, +3 Dex and +3 Con at sixth level.

Sting: The Wyvern is best known in adventuring circles for its poisonous sting: a fully grown Wyvern can fell an elephant with but a single dose. With each successful sting attack, the Wyvern injects an injury based poison. The poison allows a fortitude save, with a DC of 10 + ½ the Wyvern's HD + its Con bonus. The poison is initially weak, dealing 1d4 Con damage as both the initial and secondary effects, but increases in strength as the Wyvern gains HD, shown on the table below:

{table=head]HD|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage
3|1d4 Con|1d6 Con
6|1d6 Con|1d6 Con
9|1d6 Con|1d8 Con
12|1d8 Con|2d6 Con
15|2d6 Con|2d6 Con
18|2d6 Con|3d6 Con[/table]

Leathery Wings: Wyverns of second level or higher can use their natural wings to transport themselves about the battlefield. The Wyvern may fly (15' per HD to a maximum of 60', poor maneuverability), but has the restriction of having to start and end its turns on solid ground to do so.

Weave: Second level Wyverns are eager hunters of larger prey. When fighting such opponents, or wary of smaller pray, they instinctively feint and hop about on their powerful legs, allowing them to quickly shift to more advantageous locations. Weave lets a Wyvern make 10' steps where they would normally be able to make 5' steps, with the caveat that they cannot make attacks of opportunity until the start of their next turn and they must be on the ground.

At 8HD, the Wyvern can make attacks of opportunity even after a 10' step.

At 14HD, Wyverns can make 15' foot steps, but again, cannot make attacks of opportunity afterward.

At 20HD, the restriction on attacks of opportunity are again lifted.

Lashing Tail: The third level Wyvern is now more adept at using its tail to strike at nearby foes. The Wyvern's tail attack can now be used to strike at foes up to 10' away. Should the Wyvern increase in size by way of spells or levels in this class, the range increases by 5' per size category. The Wyvern suffers no penalty for attacking adjacent foes.

Scent: A third level Wyvern is a natural hunter, and can use its sense of smell to track prey. It has Scent with a range of 30'.

Flight: The fourth level Wyvern can fly without the restriction of having to touch ground at any point during its turn. Wyverns fly at a speed of 60', with poor maneuverability. The Wyvern gains the feat Flyby Attack.

Talons: Wyverns of fourth level or higher have two Talon attacks, usable only while airborne, that deliver 2d4+Str damage each. In addition, Wyverns have Improved Grab, allowing them to start a grapple check if they successfully strike an opponent with both talons during a flyby attack. Grabbed foes are carried aloft by the Wyvern, encumbrance allowing. Dropping them is a free action.

Growth: A fifth level Wyvern grows to large size. Its reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but it doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

Tail Slam: A Wyvern of fifth level or higher can use its tail to strike the ground, sending up plumes of debris. This is a standard action and affects a target square within 15' of the Wyvern. Dust, leaves, snow or other debris fills the target square and all adjacent squares, blocking line of sight and offering partial concealment. If the Tail Slam is performed as part of flight, the dust is kicked up in a cone extending 15', plus 5' for every 10' the Wyvern has moved that turn (maximum +30').

Opponents caught in the area of effect must make a fortitude save or be sickened for 1d3-1 rounds and make a reflex save or be blinded for 1d3-1 rounds. In the event of a '0' for the duration (ie. a rolled one), the effect only persists until the beginning of the target's next turn. The DC for both saves is 10+½ Wyvern's HD + Wyvern's Strength bonus, but opponents in squares adjacent to the target square get a +2 on both saves.

Legendary Venom: The venom of a fully grown Wyvern is something to be feared. At sixth level the Wyvern's poison is enhanced in a manner of the player's choice, chosen from the list below. The Wyvern may enhance their poison again at 12HD and 18HD.
The save DC increases by +2
The poison inflicts +2 Con damage as part of the initial and secondary effects.
The poison is corrosive and reduces opponents' AC by 1d4 on a successful attack with your natural weapon. To undo the effect, the armor must be repaired (for removable armor) or healed like ability damage (for natural armor).
The sting damage is considered to be vile damage and 1/3rd of the ability damage is Con drain, instead (round up). Choosing this option multiple times adds +1d4 vile damage to the sting and makes an added one third of the Con damage into ability drain.
The poison inflicts a negative level as secondary damage.
The poison is so potent it will even affect creatures that would normally be immune, sapping whatever kinds of energy sustain the creature, even negative or magical energies. Golems, undead and creatures that are normally immune to poison are affected. If you would affect a creature without a Con score, the poison deals Str damage instead. Such creatures take half the ability damage they normally would.
The poison persists in the victim's system for long durations, acting much like a disease. After the secondary damage, the victim must make another saving throw every minute. Failure means they take Con damage again. Two successful saves against the poison (including initial and secondary damage) means the victim has successfully shaken off the poison's effect.

Wing Beat: During a full attack, a sixth level Wyvern can deliver two wing attacks for 1d8+½ Str damage each.
Comments
I had a picture I liked in one of my art collection folders and I'd just written up some progressive poison abilities, so I thought I'd do the Wyvern.

The benefit here is that with the Monster Hunter games, there's a wealth of material to draw from regarding Wyverns. It was because of online videos of these Wyverns in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WALi1nmONc) that I easily came up with Weave and Tail Slam as ability concepts.

The issue with the Wyvern was that aside from poison (which I didn't want to frontload too much) and brutal physical capabilities, it wasn't particularly excellent or distinctive at anything. In the end, I gave the Wyvern her ability to just completely dish it out in melee, I de-emphasized poison (In my initial draft, it dealt 2d6 initial & secondary damage at 6HD) and gave it reach with its tail, which isn't in the original monster but again, makes more sense when you see a theoretical wyvern fight.

With that in mind, I wanted something that made the Wyvern stand out a little as a melee monster. Weave is that. With the potential to deliver 4+ attacks (bite, tail, wing, wing) on a full attack at 6th level, Weave makes the Wyvern a distinct threat, though it still retains general vulnerabilities and doesn't have a huge AC for a melee fighter. The attack of opportunity drawback is largely there to prevent abuse, though at those levels where the Wyvern loses that drawback, we can assume opponents have a workaround.

Skill wise, it doesn't offer much (Wyverns are described as somewhat stupid), but it can hide and move silently, which couples well with Tail Slam's ability to block line of sight.Changelog
August 9th, 2010:
Changed the 'you can now poison undead/constructs' to deal Str damage to those with no Con score.
August 10th, 2010:
Updated poison and tidied it up.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 10:10 PM

Hmm... the Wyvern... what's wrong with it...
Oh, I see. Nothing! I like it.:smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-04, 10:47 PM

Hmm... the Wyvern... what's wrong with it...
Oh, I see. Nothing! I like it.:smallbiggrin:

Actually, On the table it says Terrible venom and in the ability list it's called Legendary venom.

Other than that, it looks fine.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 10:53 PM

Good catch, Kyuub.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-04, 10:54 PM

Good catch, Kyuub.

Glad to be of service.

Now I'm off to look at magic items.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 11:08 PM

Reptilians
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4b3KmxlYPy0/SdDVfOYgzgI/AAAAAAAAAGo/n0Ifcp53DzA/s400/Lizardfolk+2.bmp
HD:d10
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+ 2|+ 0| +0 |Reptilian Body, Species, +2 Con.
[/table]
Skills: 4+int modifier, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Swim.

Proefeciencies:Simple weapons, light armor, light and heavy shields.

Features
Reptilian Body:At 1st level a Reptilian loses all racial bonus it had and gains monstrous humanoid traits, with the reptilian subtype. He's medium sized with darkvision 60', 2 natural claw attacks dealing 1d4+str modifier damage each as primary natural attacks, and one bite attack dealing 1d4+str modifier damage as a secondary natural attack.
In addition, a Reptilian gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his constitution bonus.

Species:
Reptilian is simply a blanket term to cover many races: at 1st level, the Reptilian chooses its specific race from the choices below.
Lizardfolk: A lizardfolk gains +2 strength, 30 ft. swim speed, the hold breath ability, and a bonus to hide checks in swamps, lagoons, and other marshy areas, as well as while submerged in water, equal to 1/2 his HD. In addition, he gains Hide in Plain Sight while in murky water (essentially any water that isn't totally clear).
Poison Dusk: The Poison Dusk Reptilian gains +2 dexterity, the slight build ability, and a bonus to hide checks equal to 1/2 HD. When hiding, he may take a full round action to double this number.
Blackscale: The Blackscale Reptilian gains +2 strength and may wield weapons one step larger than its size without penalty.
Troglodyte: The Troglodyte gains an additional +2 constitution, a bonus to hide checks in rocky or subterranean areas equal to 1/2 HD, and the stench (ex) ability: As a free action no more than once per 10 minutes, the troglodyte can release a foul smelling musk from his hide. All living creatures but troglodytes within 30' must succeed on a DC (10+1/2 HD+con mod) fort save or be sickened for a number of rounds equal to the troglodyte's HD. If the opponent fails their save by 5 or more, they are instead nauseated for this duration.

Ability Score Increase: The Reptilian gains +2 con, in addition to its ability score bonus from Species.

Woo. Reptilians. Another 1 level class, I balanced this one against the gnoll: I think it holds up okay.:smallsmile:

Mystic Muse

2010-08-04, 11:17 PM

I like the reptilians. Blackscales are actually playable now, and the normal version isn't nearly as bad anymore. Plus Troglodytes are good now.

I approve.

The only possible balance issue I can see is the Poison dusk getting a rather big hide modifier for a first level character.

Hyudra

2010-08-04, 11:18 PM

I wonder if Lizardfolk isn't disadvantaged compared to the poison dusk lizardfolk.

Both get a stat bonus.
Poison Dusk gets a hide bonus of X at all times, and a pretty damn useful special ability.
Lizardfolk get a conditional hide bonus of X in niche situations, and a niche ability.

Barring an aquatic campaign, is there really a compelling reason to use Lizardfolk over poison dusk?

Also, it seems just a little out of place that the reptilian's natural attacks are claw primary (½ str) and bite secondary (Full str bonus). What I've read on natural weapons suggests the bite would be their primary weapon.

And darn, I had Troglodyte as one of the classes I have half written up (Alongside Cloud Giant revision, Bugbear, Kuo-Toa and one template concept).

Gorgondantess

2010-08-04, 11:20 PM

The only possible balance issue I can see is the Poison dusk getting a rather big hide modifier for a first level character.

Less than a kobold: that's just their schtick, hiding.

My only concern is that blackscale will be taken every time over a standard lizardfolk. Yes, wielding large weapons is that much better than a myriad of flavorful abilities.:smallsigh:

@Hyudra: You take lizardfolk if you want damage, or the swim speed. Poison dusk are powerful, but you don't take it if you want a melee type.

And, well, pretty much every reptilian has the claw as their primary natural attack. It's silly, but I'm willing to keep that: claws are cooler, anyways.:smalltongue:

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 12:34 AM

Kuo-Toa
http://i36.tinypic.com/33fb0on.jpg

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2| Kuo-Toa Body, Slime, +2 Dex/Wis/Con
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3| Fish Eye, Gibbering Worship, +2 Dex/Wis/Con
[/table]
Skill Points 6+Int per level
Class Skill: Climb, Craft (Any), Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Nature, Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device.

Proficiencies: Kuo Toans are proficient with simple and martial weapons and shields, but not tower shields.

Kuo-Toa Body: The Kuo-Toa loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Monstrous Humanoid traits (including Darkvision 60'), with the aquatic subtype. Kuo-Toa are medium sized creatures with 20' land movement and a 50' swim speed. Kuo Toans are amphibious and can survive indefinitely on land. They have a racial bonus to Escape Artist equal to ½ their HD, a racial bonus to Spot equal to ¼ their HD, and Natural Armor equal to their Con bonus.

Kuo-Toans speak Kuo-Toan, Undercommon and Aquan, and can speak additional languages with high Int scores, as normal.

Ability Score Increase: The Kuo-Toan gets its choice of +2 Dex, +2 Con or +2 Wis at 1st level. Whatever it chooses at first level, it can't make the same choice when it takes the second level in the class.

Slime: Kuo-Toans exude a slime from their pores. This allows them to take 10 on escape artist checks even in dangerous situations, provided they are not making the check against a living foe (as in a grapple). Should a Kuo-Toa take a second level in this class, they may take 20.

The slime has a number of minor practical applications, and can be changed into a strong binding agent. The DC for all Slime-relevant saves is 10 + ½ the Kuo-Toan's HD + the Kuo-Toan's Con. They may accumulate enough slime to make one such item a day, plus one additional item for every 4HD they have.
With at least 12g in ingredients, a Kuo-Toa can use their slime to produce an object with the qualities of a tanglefoot bag.
With 20g in components, the Kuo-Toan can make an adhesive that can be applied to a shield, forcing opponents who roll under the Kuo-Toan's flatfooted AC to make a reflex save or be disarmed with their weapon stuck to the shield. Alternately, adhesive can be spread over a 20' area by hand, at which point opponents who walk into it become entangled.
With 600g in components, the Kuo-Toan can produce a nonmagical glue that acts much like sovereign glue, though glued objects can come apart with a strength check in 3d6 days, with a -2 to the DC for every day thereafter
In place of gold, the Kuo-Toan can make a survival check, a knowledge nature check or a knowledge dungeoneering check and spend 1d4+1 hours searching to gather the components. It may not take 20. The DC for the search is 15, and for each point the Kuo-Toa gets over 15, it may collect 10g in components. These components have no value outside of the creation of these items, and no merchants are liable to buy either the components or the created items.

Fish Eye: Kuo-Toa can see invisible and ethereal foes, but only if the foes are actively moving.

Gibbering Worship: Kuo-Toa are a dying race, and cling desperately to the hope that their mad and incomprehensible gods will return them to their place of glory. Even those Kuo-Toa who reject their culture tend to gravitate towards religion.

Pick two of the domains from the list below. The Kuo-Toa has the spells per day of a sorcerer with a number of levels equal to the Kuo-Toa's HD. The Kuo-Toa may cast any spells from the domain with a spell level equal to or less than its HD as SLAs. The Kuo-Toa does get the domain benefits from the domains it selects:
Cavern (FR p62)
Darkness (FR p62)
Decay (Eb p105)
Evil (SRD)
Madness (CDiv p139, Eb p107)
Slime (PGF p91)
Suffering (PGF p91)
Water (SRD)
Watery Death (PGF p92)
Wrath (BoED p97)
Should the Kuo-Toa take levels in a divine spellcasting class, it may elect to have its Monster Class & Kuo-Toa levels stack for the purposes of determining CL and spells per day. This does not apply retroactively; An 2nd level Kuo-Toa acquiring one level of cleric would gain the spells per day it would have gained going from 2nd level cleric to 3rd level cleric, but wouldn't retroactively gain the spell options of a 1st level cleric.Comments
I wanted to tweak these guys some more, but I figured it'd be better to post it earlier than to risk someone else beating me to the punch. I think I might return to them at a later date to try and emphasize the Mythos aspect of them (There's the undertone of despair to their culture, they're lurking in dark underwater caves and sunken kingdoms, they worship primeval gods with unpronounceable names and they're fish people, which makes me think innsmouth.) When I return to them, I want to figure out a way to encourage Kuo-Toa players to hang out in damp, murky areas and stick to the dark, without actively penalizing them, and to just build on that flavor I mentioned, above.

Anyways, I think they're pretty playable. They get some utility with their slime, and some with their spells. The second level in the class is more to do with the 'whip' described in the monster manual, than anything else, so just take the 1st level if you want a Kuo-Toa rogue and 2nd level if you want the cleric-ish whip.
Changelog
None yet.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-05, 01:13 AM

Two things.
1. You say skills again after "Class skills"
2. The Natural armor of the Kuo-toa says it's equal to their Con

Well, I'm bored and can't decide on a feat for my character so have a (Possibly poorly done) Gargoyle.

http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af146/Theburningfields/Decorated%20images/the-Gargoyle.jpg

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+2| Gargoyle Body, +1 Con,
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+3| Stone form, +1 Con
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+3| Stone Shell, +1 Con
4th|+4|+1|+4|+4| Stone Wings, +1 Con
[/table]
Skill points 2+int modifier per level.
Class skills: Hide, Listen, Spot

Gargoyle Body: The Gargoyle loses all other racial bonuses and acquires monstrous humanoid traits (Basically, darkvision 60 feet) and the earth subtype. Gargoyles are medium sized creatures with a 40 foot base land speed. In addition, the gargoyle gains 2 primary claw attacks and a secondary bite attack for 1d4+Str mod and 1d6+1/2 Str mod respectively.

In addition, the Gargoyle gains a natural armor bonus equal to his Constitution modifier.

StoneformEx. At second level the Gargoyle becomes more adept at concealing itself. The Gargoyle can Transform into natural stone to blend in with its surrounding . An observer must succeed on a spot check with a DC equal to 10+HD to determine the stone is actually a gargoyle.

Stone shell: At Third level the Gargoyle gains DR/Magic equal to half its HD and it can now bypass DR/Magic with its natural attacks. In addition it gains a gore attack as a secondary attack for 1d6+1/2 Str mod.

Stone wings: At 4th level the Gargoyle gains a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. The speed does not increase.

The Player can instead choose to gain the aquatic subtype at first level and a swim speed at 4th level for aquatic campaigns.

Edit: some last minute changes.

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 01:29 AM

The trouble I perceive with the gargoyle is that it's terribly passive. It doesn't get to do anything except, what, full attack, standard attack? Maybe a maneuver here or there?

Its skills are very minimalist, all things considered, and it could stand to have an expanded list & more skill points.

At second level, on the table, you have a +1 but nothing after it. (+1 +1 Con)

Freeze needs a better name (It's misleading), and could stand to have the gargoyle emulate natural rock, rather than have the "suspend your disbelief" nature of them appearing like a statue in plain sight where foes are looking for it & having people be fooled (or, alternately, having it be utterly useless).

It's terribly underpowered, and needs something of a buff. As it stands, it doesn't even scale.

Frog Dragon

2010-08-05, 01:31 AM

Frog Dragon:Very good overall of the arcanoloth but 15th level kinda empty.
I basically ran out of ideas there and thought one abilityless level wasn't going to kill the monster.

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 01:53 AM

Dead levels make Flumphs cry. Don't make Flumphs cry.

Think flavor. What does the Arcanaloth do in the lower planes? They're scribes, record keepers, merchants and businessmen. Sometimes they are governors (reaching into earlier editions there). Key elements there are manipulation, knowledge, words and more words.

Just brainstorming, what if you gave him the ability to corrupt words? Like, he can touch a written work and change it so it spreads misinformation, misleads or outright lies. Whatever he wants. It might be keyed off of forgery, but the basic idea would be that it would let the Arcanaloth turn scrolls, spellbooks and symbols to his own purposes. As a touch attack against a spellcaster, he could corrupt their spellbook. With a bluff check, he might even do it without their knowledge.

What would this do? Maybe a suggestion effect, or a geas, or something like making a set number of spells have unintended effects until the wizard/archivist figures out what's what. In simpler terms, it would work like a curse spell. If you feel the Arcanaloth is viable as a class (and I can't pass verdict here, it's a mess as written, and I can't interpret it), then it's a thematic ability that works as an adventure seed (If the Arcanaloth is a player, using the ability on the big bad is a story element. If he's a monster you're throwing at the group, well, it's just lulzy.)

Frog Dragon

2010-08-05, 02:05 AM

Well, basically, it's a sorcerer at -2 casting, better HD, saves and a ton of class features.

Oslecamo

2010-08-05, 05:16 AM

Hyudra:Fantastic job with the new raging blood! Just one thing still bugging me, why doesn't the reflective hide scale? It's good when it starts but when you reach high level and the oponent starts flinging 9th level spells you're not even assured to block one.

The wyvern however looks perfect as it is, gonna add it to the list.

The Kuo-Toa is a more exotic take but still I can't find problems with it now so gonna add it as well. You're on a roll again there!:smallbiggrin:

Crafty Cultist:That's just the mutants. Make a prc for it if you want.

Also I'm reminded of another important purpose on this project. We don't want to pidgeon-hole roles to the race too much. What if somebody wants to play a male Sahuagin spellcaster or female Sahuagin warrior? Please make it like the gnoll, divide the monster in two "paths" and let the player choose what he wants to be. PCs are suposed to be exceptional inidividuals after all and shouldn't be tied down by tradition. And again human hate isn't that particularly usefull in a campaign.

Gorgondantess:Good stuff with the reptilians but the poisondusk's hide ability needs some clarifying. If you use a fullround action how long does it last? Can you still hide when you do it?

Kyuubi:Gargoyle whitout proefeciencies. Also like Hyudra said could use some custom special ability. Or bonus feats. Also a couple more skill points wouldn't hurt.

Frog Dragon:Speaking of class features that poison could use some scaling.

Frog Dragon

2010-08-05, 05:38 AM

Frog Dragon:Speaking of class features that poison could use some scaling.
Done. Flying half-badger unicorns taste good sprinkled with a little salt.

Volthawk

2010-08-05, 06:56 AM

Alright, I'll try the Awakened Legendary Wolf. Probably will need a lot of changes, though.

Awakened Legendary Wolf

HD:d8
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1 | +1 | +2|+2|+2 |Wolf body, Scent, Track, +1 Str, +1 Dex
2| +2| +3|+3|+3 |Trip, Primal Speed, Pack Hunter, +1 Con
3| +3| +3|+3| +3|Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, +1 Str, +1 Dex
4| +4| +4| +4|+4 |Primal Strength, +1 Wis, +1 Con
5| +5| +4| +4| +4|Master Tripper, Woodland Stride, +1 Str, +1 Dex
6| +6| +5|+5|+5 |Tracking Expertise, Primal Toughness, +1 Con, +1 Wis
7| +7| +5| +5| +5|Swift Tracker, Pack Alpha, +1 Str, +1 Dex
[/TABLE]
Skill points: 4+Int mod, x4 first level
Class Skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim

Proficiencies: An awakened legendary wolf is only proficient with it's natural weapons.

Features
Wolf Body: At 1st level, the awakened legendary wolf loses all other racial bonus and gets magical beast traits (Darkvision 60ft and low-light vision). It’s a medium magical beast with a base speed of 30ft. The awakened legendary wolf has a bite attack, dealing 1d8+1.5xStr modifier. The awakened legendary wolf gets a Nat armor bonus equal to its Con modifier. The awakened legendary wolf is four legged, and lacks fine manipulation. It gains bonuses to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot equal to a quarter of it's HD.

Ability score increases: At each odd level of the class, the awakened legendary wolf gains +1 to Str and Dex. On every odd level, the awakened legendary wolf gains +1 Con. On the 4th and 6th level of the class, the awakened legendary wolf gains +1 to Wis. So at 7th level, the awakened legendary wolf would have a total of +4 Str and Dex, +3 Con, and +2 Wis.

Track: At first level, the awakened legendary wolf gains Track as a bonus feat.

Scent: At first level, the awakened legendary wolf gains the scent extra ordinary ability.

Pack Hunter: At second level, the awakened legendary wolf gains extra benefit from flanking. It gains an extra +1 bonus from flanking, with the bonus increasing by one for every 6HD it has.

Primal Speed: The awakened legendary wolf's land speed increases by 5ft for every HD from this level.

Trip: An awakened legendary wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the awakened legendary wolf.

Uncanny Dodge: An awakened legendary wolf can react to danger before it's senses would normally allow it to do so. It retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if it is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, it still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If an awakened legendary wolf already has uncanny dodge from a different class it automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. If an awakened legendary wolf already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the awakened legendary wolf automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the awakened legendary wolf.

Evasion: An awakened legendary wolf can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If it makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the awakened legendary wolf is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless awakened legendary wolf does not gain the benefit of evasion.

If an awakened legendary wolf already has evasion from a different class it automatically gains improved evasion instead.

Primal Strength: The awakened legendary wolf gains Powerful Build, and it's bite attack now deals 2d6 base damage.

Master Tripper: The awakened legendary wolf gains Improved Trip if it already has not obtained it. If it has already obtained it, the awakened legendary wolf can gain another feat it qualifies for. The strength bonus increases by 1 for every 3HD the awakened legendary wolf has, and the attack gained by a successful trip has a bonus to attack and damage equal to a third of the awakened legendary wolf's HD.

Woodland Stride:An awakened legendary wolf may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at it's normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.

However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect it.

Tracking Expertise: The awakened legendary wolf gains a bonus to Survival checks equal to a third of it's HD.

Primal Toughness: The awakened legendary wolf gains DR/- equal to quarter it's HD.

Swift Tracker:An awakened legendary wolf can move at it's normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. It takes only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Pack Alpha: The awakened legendary wolf's bonus from Pack Hunter is also given to all allies in 30ft.

Comments

Yeah, the legendary wolf is really just the wolf, just bigger, so I had to think of extra features to add in. I decided to add some ranger-style abilities (OK, I stole some), as I though that fit the wolf, with the tracking and similar skills focused, and also played a bit more on the 'incredible animal' part.

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 11:27 AM

Hyudra:Fantastic job with the new raging blood! Just one thing still bugging me, why doesn't the reflective hide scale? It's good when it starts but when you reach high level and the oponent starts flinging 9th level spells you're not even assured to block one.

Suggestions? I DM and play fairly regularly, but quite frankly, I didn't even know what spell turning was until I came upon the entry in the Creature of Legend (MMII). Though, truth be told, I stay away from campaigns of 14-20th level as a general rule, so I'd have little reason to run into it.

As such, I don't have a point of reference to work from. The way both you and GorgonDantess speak, it sounds like Spell Turning should be blocking everything. My own interpretation, reading it, (especially recognizing it's a 24/7 thing for the Creature of Legend), is that it should only have a chance to block stuff, and would then reflect partial blasts/effects.

Change the number so the average reflection level is 1/2 HD -2?

The wyvern however looks perfect as it is, gonna add it to the list.

I'm really happy with how the Wyvern came together. I could see myself playing one, and I think it offers enough that I could see someone giving serious consideration to a Wyvern cohort.

The Kuo-Toa is a more exotic take but still I can't find problems with it now so gonna add it as well. You're on a roll again there!:smallbiggrin:

I half another half dozen monsters that are partially written up. Yesterday was mostly just me pushing myself to get 'em done.

Awakened Legendary Wolf

Really, really helps if people list what level a given ability is required in the ability descriptions:

Skill Name: At fourth level, the creature [flavor], allowing it to [skill description].
I would specify that they're four legged.
I would also specify that they lack fine manipulation (Even a smart wolf wouldn't be able to open a doorknob without a large number of tries.)
The racial skill bonuses are too good. You're talking epic level uses of pretty much everything on its skill list at higher levels.
For Pack Hunter, consider giving it better flank bonuses. If it gives/gets a +3 from flank at low levels, and this scales upward (maybe to +5 at high levels), I think it would be more fitting.
Beast Hunter is pretty ridiculous. (+3 to attack, damage, AC, and again, pretty much everything on your skill list?) And a little too niche.
For improved trip, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and the like, what if I've already got those at low levels when it's time to get that class feature?
The animal companions are both a little too numerous and a little too fragile. At 20th level you'll have 4 wolves on the battlefield, each with 8HD (~55hp), 20AC, and their attack options are limited to +8 bites delivering 1d6+3 damage. Meaning they probably won't land any hits, they'll die really really fast (Enemies have like a 75% chance to hit them, since many enemies will have +25 to hit) and it'll just bog down the combat.

Just making the next blurb separate from the above

What are people's thoughts on animals? If the ultimate goal is to have monster classes for all the monster manual entries, how do we approach the lions, tigers and bears?

I would argue that on their own, they don't offer enough to make up for the crippling loss of fine manipulation & speech.

So, just brainstorming, I'd perhaps suggest a scenario where some of the animals would be half classes. As such, you'd have something like:

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0| Lion Body, Pounce
2nd|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Insert Template}
3rd|+0|+0|+0|+0| Leonine Roar, Scent
4th|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Insert Template}
5th|+0|+0|+0|+0| Improved Grab, Rake[/table]

And the template would basically mesh with it:

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0| Awakened (Can speak, change type to augmented, magical beast)
2nd|+0|+0|+0|+0| Kinship
3rd|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Base creature}
4th|+0|+0|+0|+0| Talents
5th|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Base creature}[/table]

or alternately (to show how something else would mesh):

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+0| Dire
2nd|+0|+0|+0|+0| Spurs
3rd|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Base creature}
4th|+0|+0|+0|+0| Growth
5th|+0|+0|+0|+0| {Base creature}[/table]

Or you could have this as a kind of semi-gestalt option while leaving the base animal written up if people so wish.

TLDR: taking a half-race-half-template option would basically be like multiclassing, alternating template & animal levels, but declaring the gestalt would basically offer some essential enhancements from level 1, at the cost of delaying some of the features of your chosen animal.

Oslecamo

2010-08-05, 11:46 AM

Suggestions? I DM and play fairly regularly, but quite frankly, I didn't even know what spell turning was until I came upon the entry in the Creature of Legend (MMII). Though, truth be told, I stay away from campaigns of 14-20th level as a general rule, so I'd have little reason to run into it.

As such, I don't have a point of reference to work from. The way both you and GorgonDantess speak, it sounds like Spell Turning should be blocking everything. My own interpretation, reading it, (especially recognizing it's a 24/7 thing for the Creature of Legend), is that it should only have a chance to block stuff, and would then reflect partial blasts/effects.

You seem to be misreading spell turning. Every time a spell is blocked the effect gets weaker. So if you roll a 5 and get a result of 9, and then you're targeted by a 9th level spell, it is blocked and your spell turning is expended. If you're targeted by a 4th level spell and then a 5th same deal.

If you want it to have a chance of blocking stuff but that chance stays the same despite of how many spells are thrown at you then you'll have to specify it.

Change the number so the average reflection level is 1/2 HD -2?

If you implement the above yes it would be a good idea.

I half another half dozen onsters that are partially written up. Yesterday was mostly just me pushing myself to get 'em done.

I also got the tarrasque and some others in the works, but SC II is stealing most of my time for a week.:smalltongue:

Or you could have this as a kind of semi-gestalt option while leaving the base animal written up if people so wish.

I'm afraid I didn't really get that idea.

TLDR: taking a half-race-half-template option would basically be like multiclassing, alternating template & animal levels, but declaring the gestalt would basically offer some essential enhancements from level 1, at the cost of delaying some of the features of your chosen animal.

No. All animals/mindless here are already awakened because they have an int of 8 at worst. Int 2 or worst stuff can't be player characters at all by the rules.

The ideal plan would be to condense them all in a single class:

First levels:normal animal
Midle levels:dire version
High levels: legendary/special version

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-05, 11:55 AM

Gender details removed; now its just a choice between hunter and preist. the mutants only have an extra set of arms, so a racial feat seemed more appropriate than a prestige class

Volthawk

2010-08-05, 12:00 PM

Really, really helps if people list what level a given ability is required in the ability descriptions:

Skill Name: At fourth level, the creature [flavor], allowing it to [skill description].
I would specify that they're four legged.
I would also specify that they lack fine manipulation (Even a smart wolf wouldn't be able to open a doorknob without a large number of tries.)
The racial skill bonuses are too good. You're talking epic level uses of pretty much everything on its skill list at higher levels.
For Pack Hunter, consider giving it better flank bonuses. If it gives/gets a +3 from flank at low levels, and this scales upward (maybe to +5 at high levels), I think it would be more fitting.
Beast Hunter is pretty ridiculous. (+3 to attack, damage, AC, and again, pretty much everything on your skill list?) And a little too niche.
For improved trip, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and the like, what if I've already got those at low levels when it's time to get that class feature?
The animal companions are both a little too numerous and a little too fragile. At 20th level you'll have 4 wolves on the battlefield, each with 8HD (~55hp), 20AC, and their attack options are limited to +8 bites delivering 1d6+3 damage. Meaning they probably won't land any hits, they'll die really really fast (Enemies have like a 75% chance to hit them, since many enemies will have +25 to hit) and it'll just bog down the combat.

Alright, then:

- Done.

- Done.

- Done.

- Decreased the bonuses to quarter HD, and got rid of survival, instead making Tracking Expertise give the bonus, at third HD.

- That does make more sense. Done.

- Got rid of it.

- Well, evasion I just took from the ranger (both it and the rogue says nothing about when you have both). I said it improves to Improved Evasion, though. Uncanny Dodge upgrades, and I'll add in the bit about levels stacking. As for Improved Trip, I just said you could pick another feat.

- Well, the companions were just a last minute extra, meant to help Pack Hunter. Now it's changed, I'll get rid.

Yeah, some of the features may be a bit off. I had to come up with pretty much all of them, and some were just there because I was running out of better ideas. Any other ideas for features to add/replace what's there would be appreciated.

Mystic Muse

2010-08-05, 12:20 PM

Kyuubi:Gargoyle whitout proefeciencies. Also like Hyudra said could use some custom special ability. Or bonus feats. Also a couple more skill points wouldn't hurt..

Thanks for pointing out proficiencies. The skill points are just what the SRD said to do.

Could somebody help with the custom special ability? I can't think of anything.

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 12:29 PM

The skill points are just what the SRD said to do.

We don't do skill points by the SRD. Generally, we scale it depending on the monster and the expected role of said monster.

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-05, 12:29 PM

Thanks for pointing out proficiencies. The skill points are just what the SRD said to do.

Could somebody help with the custom special ability? I can't think of anything.

I picture gargoyles as swooping down from above at their enemies; maybe a bonus when charging from above an opponent?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-05, 01:37 PM

@Oslecamo: It's pretty simple: you only need to make one hide check to "hide", no matter how long you're hiding, right? So, you take a full round action to increase the bonus on that hide check. It's not like it goes away or anything.

Okay, am I the only one who sees the ridiculous amount of ability score bonuses on the awakened legendary wolf? That's +24 to ability scores! Over 7 levels! If you need to give more than +2 to a ability scores every level to make it balanced, you're doing something wrong. I'd change it to an even mix of strength, dexterity & constitution bonuses (like +str & con 1st level, then +con and dex, then +dex & str, then +str & con again, etc) then on, say, 3rd and 6th level give +1 wisdom.

Volthawk

2010-08-05, 01:55 PM

Trodon

2010-08-05, 01:58 PM

Could I request that someone makes a Megaraptor class... Pretty please? :smallbiggrin:

Gorgondantess

2010-08-05, 01:58 PM

How about gaining Str and Dex on odd levels, Con on even levels, and Wis on 4th and 6th level?

The MMII Legendary wolf has 25 Str, 28 Dex and 21 Con, I was just trying to show that, but balancing these don't seem to be my strong point...

Generally, we're here to give cool abilities, not high ability scores. See, likewise, the vrock has 24 con, but you don't see me giving it +2 con a level, do you? Or even +1 con a level. Forget the MM. The MM is stupid. And ugly. And cheats at cards. What do you think the legendary wolf should have?
That would work perfectly, by the way.

Volthawk

2010-08-05, 02:10 PM

Generally, we're here to give cool abilities, not high ability scores. See, likewise, the vrock has 24 con, but you don't see me giving it +2 con a level, do you? Or even +1 con a level. Forget the MM. The MM is stupid. And ugly. And cheats at cards. What do you think the legendary wolf should have?
That would work perfectly, by the way.

Cool. Apart from that, any other problems?

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 03:43 PM

It's wordy, but I wrote up a new reflective hide with a table and everything.

Edge

2010-08-05, 03:52 PM

Right, since no one took up my bulette request that I made a while back, I have determined that I shall do it myself! :smalltongue:

However, I would appreciate it if someone could lay out all the guidelines/rules for these monster classes (the things like natural armour = Con bonus, unless Con -) so I don't screw it up horribly.

imp_fireball

2010-08-05, 05:53 PM

but declaring the gestalt would basically offer some essential enhancements from level 1, at the cost of delaying some of the features of your chosen animal.

Sounds a lot like bloodlines.

EDIT: Would be a lot easier to implement then rearranging every class just for the animal.

Hyudra

2010-08-05, 05:56 PM

As a general tip, it's easier to do the formatting thing if you just quote an existing post and make changes as appropriate.
The first level always opens with [Monster] Body - which details the base features of the race. Size, land speed, natural attacks.
It's not explicitly stated, but the max level in the class should be = to the creature's CR. (ie. 8CR creature = 8 levels in the class).
De-emphasize high stats, emphasize flavor.
Don't use the type/subtype standards to derive skill points. Eyeball it and decide whether a creature should be a skill monkey or not. You're not forced to use the skills in the monster entry, but it's a good starting point and works in many cases.
Undead & Constructs get no class skills.
No dead levels!
Each level should have something interesting to offer.
Abilities should scale. This means abilities that you pick up should get better and thus remain viable as you gain levels/stats/whatever.
Advanced movement modes (ie. Flight, levitation) tend to trivialize low level encounters. Such come at ~5th level. Sometimes 4th for creatures built around flight (typically those with poor base land speeds).
Growth (change in size categories) comes no earlier than 3rd level (and even then, 3rd level only when you're really forced to go that route, as with Ogre, a 3 CR/level class). Generally aim for around 4th-6th level.
If a creature is more of a 'caster', then we use Oslecamo's method of having the SLAs segue into caster levels. This means a, say, Dragon9 that takes a level of sorcerer can get the CL/spells known/spells per day that a sorcerer would get for going from 9th level to 10th, but wouldn't get the level 1-9 stuff. A little weird, but it works well.

A few notes on the Bulette: It's a dumb beast, with no fine manipulation (ie. it doesn't have the manual dexterity to use a doorknob, hold a sword) and IIRC, it can't speak. This is fairly crippling to a PC (especially insofar that it prevents much roleplaying), which gives you a little more leeway as far as upping its power.

Volthawk

2010-08-06, 03:36 AM

A few notes on the Bulette: It's a dumb beast, with no fine manipulation (ie. it doesn't have the manual dexterity to use a doorknob, hold a sword) and IIRC, it can't speak. This is fairly crippling to a PC (especially insofar that it prevents much roleplaying), which gives you a little more leeway as far as upping its power.

Yeah, dumb as in 2 intelligence, so animal intelligence. And I don't think there's a way to awaken magical beasts....

Edge

2010-08-06, 03:38 AM

Yeah, dumb as in 2 intelligence, so animal intelligence. And I don't think there's a way to awaken magical beasts....

Eh, a wizard did it somehow. It's odd, I have no real desire to play a bulette, but after seeing its 4e artwork from the MM, I've got an urge to make it playable.

Hyudra

2010-08-06, 11:32 AM

When I think of Bulettes, I think of these guys:

Ukanlos:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100606095837/monsterhunter/images/7/7b/774175_m1_display.jpg
Vid: Ukanlos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRCaUXZKdDU&feature=player_embedded). Sorry about the music, couldn't find a similar vid with better music, but it does show how it fights pretty well.

and Akantor:
http://i34.tinypic.com/3029yiv.jpg
Vid: Akantor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD0UtAIpNJc&feature=player_embedded)

Both from Monster Hunter: Freedom Unite. They're classified as Wyverns, but Monster Hunter is weird like that. Ukanlos in particular is, aesthetically, very close to the D&D Bulette. Both fight as I imagine a Bulette would, with a few other tricks that come from being adapted to their environment (Ukanlos uses his bladed chin to shovel snow at his opponents, Akantor has a sorta-breath-weapon).

And I totally know what you mean, Edge, about how one piece of art can inspire you to do a monster. That's been the case for more than a few monsters, for me.

At the very least, having the monster written up allows better scaling for mounts or cohorts, or options if a story takes a weird turn (Say, a player Magic Jars a Bulette, and then can't exit, and DM decides to be lenient/creative).

Oslecamo

2010-08-06, 11:59 AM

That's the spirit Hyudra! Don't be afraid to let your imagination run wild as long as the abilities aren't auto-win buttons!:smallbiggrin:

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-06, 11:29 PM

Here's my latest

The Hell Hound
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/crafty-cultist/HellHound_of_the_Night_by_ZephyrUltima.jpg
HD:d10
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Body of cerberus, Scent, +1 str, +1 dex
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Flaming maw, Abyssal breath, Shadow affinity, +1 str, +1 con
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Trip, Savage, Hellish Howl, +1 dex, +1 con[/table]
Skills: 2+ int mod. A Hell hound's class skills are Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival

Proficiencies: a Hell hound is proficient in its natural wepons

features:

Body of cerberus: A Hell hound loses all racial abilities and gains outsider traits. It is a medium sized outsider with a speed of 40ft and a bite attack that deals 1d8+1.5x strength bonus in damage. They are immune to fire but take 50% more damage from cold. The hell hound has four legs that give it a +4 bonus against trip and bull rush checks. Their paws aren't capable of fine manipulation. Hell hounds do not speak but can understand languages.

In addition, the hell hound gains natural armour equal to its constitution bonus

Scent: A hell hound gains the scent ability and adds it's level to survival checks to track by scent

Flaming maw: A second level hell hound deals 1d6 points of fire damage whenever it makes a bite attack. For every six HD beyond two the hell hound gains the fire damage increases by 1d6, to a maximum of 4d6 at 20hd

Abyssal breath: At second level, a hell hound can breath fire once every 2d4 rounds. The area is a cone with a range of 5ft per level, and it deals 1d6 fire damage per level with a reflex save(DC10+1/2HD+ Constitution modifier) for half damage.

Shadow affinity: a second level Hell hound gains a bonus equal to half its HD to hide and move silently checks.

Trip: A third level Hell hound can make a trip attempt as a free action when it hits with its bite attack. the hell hound gains a bonus on its strength check to trip equal to 1/4 its HD

Savage: When a third level hell hound drops an opponent in melee(usually by reducing it to negative hit points or tripping it) the hell hound can tear into the downed enemy, dealing the same damage as its bite attack, including fire damage.

Hellish howl: A third level hell hound can make a terrifying howl that can be heard in an area of the hell hound's choice, up to 100ft per HD. Any creature within the area with fewer HD than the hell hound is forced to make a will save(DC10+1/2HD+ charisma modifier) or be shaken for 10 minutes per HD of the hell hound. Animals that fail their saves are panicked instead. Any creature that succeeds its saving throw against this ability is immune to the hell hound's howl for 24 hours.

comments
I see the hell hound as an abyssal hunting dog, and gave it the trip and savage abilities to help it bring down game for its masters. I also added the hellish howl ability, because a demonic attack dog can never be to scary

Hyudra

2010-08-06, 11:31 PM

Displacer Beast
http://i37.tinypic.com/ici9hg.jpg

HD: D8

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will |Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+0| Displacer Beast Body, Displacement, +1 Dex
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0| Umbral Feint, Dissonance Shroud, +1 Str, +1 Con
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1| Lash and Rasp, Evasion, +1 Cha
4th|+4|+1|+4|+1| Growth, Facade, +1 Str, +1 Con
[/table]
Skill Points 4+Int per level
Class Skill Skills: Bluff, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Proficiencies: The Displacer Beast is proficient only with its own natural attacks.

Displacer Beast Body: The Displacer Beast loses all other racial bonuses, and acquires Magical Beast traits, giving it Darkvision 60' and low light vision. Displacer Beasts are initially six-legged, medium sized creatures with 40' land movement, a 1d6+½ Str damage bite attack as a secondary natural weapon, and two tentacle attacks that deal 1d4+Str damage each, as their primary natural weapons. Tentacles are reach weapons, and Displacer Beasts can use them to attack opponents 10' away, but suffer a -4 penalty to attack opponents within 5' of them. Displacer Beasts have Natural Armor equal to their Con.

Displacer Beasts do not have the necessary digits to wield weapons, aim wands or manage inventory (such as searching a bag for potions, strapping themselves into armor). Their tentacles do afford them some general manual dexterity, however, and a Displacer Beast can manage such simple tasks as using a doorknob, opening a chest or holding (but not wielding or aiming) an object. Displacer Beasts can speak Common, with other languages possible via. intelligence bonus, as normal.

Attribute Bonus: The Displacer Beast gains +1 to Dexterity at first level, +1 Cha at third level and +1 Str and Con at second and third levels, for a total bonus of +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Dex and +1 Cha at fourth level.

Displacement: The Displacer Beast has the ability to bend light around itself, causing phantom images of itself or parts of itself to fill the area in its immediate vicinity, while simultaneously using flickers of invisibility and transparency to cast doubt on its real location. Opponents who battle the Beast will see movements in the corner of their eye that the Beast isn't really making, and quickly lose track of the foe.

In game terms, Displacement ensures that any melee or ranged attacks (including ranged touch attacks) directed at the Displacer Beast have a 15% miss chance. This chance increases as the Displacer Beast takes levels in the class, with second level offering an added 10%, third level offering 15%, and fourth level offering 10%, for a total of 50% miss chance.

This miss chance continues to increase as the Displacer Beast gains HD. Every two levels gained outside of the Displacer Beast class offer a bonus % to the miss chance, equal to the number of levels the Displacer Beast has in this class. Should the Displacer Beast take another level in this class thereafter, the benefit applies retroactively. ie. A 3rd level Displacer Beast with 6 levels in rogue would have 15+10+15=40% miss chance from the three Displacer Beast levels and a 3x3= 9% miss chance bonus from the levels in other classes. If it then took the final level of Displacer Beast, it would have a total of 50% from the Displacer Beast levels and 3x4=12% from the rogue levels.

True Seeing allows someone to identify the Displacer Beast's true location, but See Invisibility does not. When the Displacer Beast reaches 10HD, it retains half the benefit of Displacement and related abilities even when opponents have True Seeing. Abilities either offer half the benefit (Dissonance Shroud, Facade, Displacement) or just have only a 50% chance to work as normal (Umbral Feint).

Umbral Feint: A second level Displacer Beast can, once per minute, focus the phantom images of its Displacement ability in a particular direction as a swift action. To the unwary eye, this appears much as though the Displacer Beast were suddenly lunging in a particular direction. This ability extends in a line reaching 5' for every 2HD of the Displacer Beast. If this effect passes through any squares threatened by an enemy that is willing and able to make an attack of opportunity against the Displacer Beast, the enemy will do so. Further, any enemies that are using defensive moves/stances that are triggered by approaching enemies (such as preparing a spear to intercept a charge) or who have readied actions against the Displacer Beast will perform the actions against the phantom images, unless they pass a spot check (DC is 10+½ Displacer Beast's HD + Displacer Beast's Cha bonus). Magical effects and traps are generally not triggered by the Umbral Feint, but may be if they are driven or activated by a sentient intelligence (such as a magical effect being manually controlled by a Djinn, or a kobold ready to set off a rockslide trap against the first creature that comes through a tunnel).

Dissonance Shroud: A Displacer Beast proves hard to target with spells. A second level Displacer Beast expands on the protections afforded by Displacement, which already protects against touch spells, to shroud it against single target, non-touch spells. A Displacer Beast gains a bonus to saves against such spells equal to its Cha, so long as the spellcaster cannot pierce the Displacer Beast's Displacement (ie. with True Seeing).

Lash and Rasp: A third level Displacer Beast is more adept with its tentacles, and can strategically impair their opponents by raking vulnerable areas with the myriad barbed hooks that cover the ends of each tentacle. The Displacer Beast now has an extended critical threat range (19-20) with its tentacle attacks. Further, when a Displacer Beast threatens a critical on an opponent they strike with their tentacle, they may rasp the opponent with their barbed hooks to deal one point of ability damage. This point of ability damage, affecting any attribute excepting Int or Wis, is delivered without a save if the Displacer Beast confirms the critical. If the Displacer Beast does not confirm, however, opponents get a Fortitude Save to fend off the ability damage, with a DC of 10 + ½ Displacer Beast's HD + Displacer Beast's Dex bonus.

If the Displacer Beast takes levels in Rogue, and delivers a sneak attack with its tentacles, it may elect to rasp the opponent rather than emphasizing damage. It can trade away 1d6 sneak attack damage for one instance of ability damage. If it can deliver 3d6 or more sneak attack damage, it may trade away up to one third of the 1d6 die for multiple instances of the rasp effect. Displacer Beast levels now stack with levels in Rogue for the purposes of sneak attack progression, but not other class features. Should the Displacer Beast take levels in another scoundrel class (such as Scout, Ninja, and other classes that get situational damage bonuses as a core class feature), it may elect to take advantage of this class feature in the same manner as the Rogue.

At 8HD, the damage increases to 1d3 ability damage to the statistic of choice (again, Int or Wis excepted). At 13HD, this increases to 1d4. At 18HD, this advances to 1d6.

Evasion: A Displacer Beast of third level or higher has Evasion as a class feature. If it makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Displacer Beast is wearing no armor, or if is wearing light armor and is proficient in said armor. Helpless Displacer Beasts do not gain the benefit of Evasion. Should the Displacer Beast gain Evasion from another source, it improves to Improved Evasion.

Growth: A fourth level Displacer Beast grows to large size. Its reach, grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but it doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties. It may now reach up to 15' with its tentacles.

The rare Displacer Beast grows to become a Pack Lord. When a Displacer Beast reaches 12HD, it advances to Huge size, gaining a 20' reach with its tentacles and a 10' reach with its bite. Again, its grapple modifiers, natural attack damage and skills change accordingly, but it doesn't gain any ability score bonuses or penalties.

Facade: At Displacer Beast of fourth level or above that finds itself in dire straits will instinctively overcharge its own Displacement ability to hide itself in a morass of shadowy images. As a free action, the Displacer Beast may employ the Facade ability, representing the Displacer Beast's need to protect itself from danger. The Displacement effect is enhanced by 25%. This benefit is cumulative (rounding up), not additive, so a base displacement of 50% would become 63%. Further, the Displacer Beast effectively casts a mirror image effect on itself, with its HD counting as caster levels for the purpose of the spell. Should the Displacer Beast take a move, standard or full-round action, the effect (including the mirror images) immediately end.

This is largely a defensive ability, however, and a Displacer Beast that employs it will find that it has overtaxed its ability and loses the benefit of Displacement, Umbral Feint and Dissonance Shroud for 2d4 rounds after the effect ends. That said, the fact that this is an instinctive ability means that it can be activated even if the Displacer Beast is helpless, crippled by a condition, confused or caught in a spell effect. Only charm spells that bias the Displacer Beast's perceptions, petrifaction and death will prevent it from being able to activate this ability.Comments
Another classic D&D monster for the list: the Displacer Beast.

So, I emphasized the signature ability with some features that generally work off the concept, and let it scale up to 80% at 20th level. Beyond that, I built it like a rogue. You lose the skill monkey-ness for some larger HD, stat bonuses and defensive abilities. You've got about a little under a 10% chance to deliver ability damage on attacks, and reach weapons to do it with.

You won't dish it out like a rogue does, unless you're prepared to full attack, but you've got that much more staying power.

I opted to let it scale with rogue, scout and other classes to give it a little more elbow room as far as advancement outside of the class. Displacer Beast Scouts make a fair amount of sense, logically.

Given how the class is put together, I get the impression it may not pass muster in one shot like the Wyvern did; holes in the design and stuff being deceptively powerful or underpowered given circumstances. Feedback is welcome.Changelog
2:00am on Saturday, August 7th:
Changed the scaling so it doesn't give the displacer beast 116% or whatever Displacement chance. Now counts every two levels in other classes for scaling purposes. (To 82% at 20th level).
6:08pm on Saturday, August 7th:
Let the Displacer Beast retain some Displacement when fighting opponents with True Seeing.

Hyudra

2010-08-06, 11:50 PM

The Hell Hound

Flaming Maw needs to scale. +1d6 damage is lame at 20th level.
Helps if you bold or italicize the ability names in the body of text, to help make individual entries stand out.
Re: shadow Affinity, I'm not sure I like the trend of creatures getting a lot of 'equal to half their level' to skills. It's coming up a lot, recently, and could stand to be cut down to maybe 1 skill per monster. In general, it should apply only when the monster entry details a racial bonus to a skill.
The bonus to the strength check is probably unnecessary in Trip. It already scales with higher strength, which you get with more levels.
Savage probably scales too well with improved trip. You attack, get a free trip attempt with a +4 bonus, then two free attacks on the tripped enemy? 'Dropping an enemy in melee' is also kind of vague.
Hellish Howl kind of scales badly with levels. By this, I mean that when you're 20th level, you howl, and your howl extends a third of a mile, or two thirds of a kilometer. You then affect everything in the dungeon (also announcing your presence), and every enemy on the other side of the dungeon either fails their save (and you don't reach them before it expires) or makes their save and is immune later, when it's actually time to fight.

Allow the Hell Hound to reduce the area of effect if they wish, as I did with Harpy.
You should specify if it can talk or use fine manipulation (IIRC, it can do neither), and that it has four legs (which matters when being tripped).

Gorgondantess

2010-08-07, 12:37 AM

50+(4x16)=114. So, at 20th level, the displacer beast gets 114% miss chance. Was this intentional?

Hyudra

2010-08-07, 01:18 AM

No, that's me being terrible at math when writing up classes at 2am.

Edit: Issue addressed, just fixing up the example given... and there.

Now scales with every 2 levels in classes that aren't Displacer Beast. Max of 82%; 100% if you activate Facade.

Crafty Cultist

2010-08-07, 02:04 AM

Flaming Maw needs to scale. +1d6 damage is lame at 20th level.
Helps if you bold or italicize the ability names in the body of text, to help make individual entries stand out.
Re: shadow Affinity, I'm not sure I like the trend of creatures getting a lot of 'equal to half their level' to skills. It's coming up a lot, recently, and could stand to be cut down to maybe 1 skill per monster. In general, it should apply only when the monster entry details a racial bonus to a skill.
The bonus to the strength check is probably unnecessary in Trip. It already scales with higher strength, which you get with more levels.
Savage probably scales too well with improved trip. You attack, get a free trip attempt with a +4 bonus, then two free attacks on the tripped enemy? 'Dropping an enemy in melee' is also kind of vague.
Hellish Howl kind of scales badly with levels. By this, I mean that when you're 20th level, you howl, and your howl extends a third of a mile, or two thirds of a kilometer. You then affect everything in the dungeon (also announcing your presence), and every enemy on the other side of the dungeon either fails their save (and you don't reach them before it expires) or makes their save and is immune later, when it's actually time to fight.

Allow the Hell Hound to reduce the area of effect if they wish, as I did with Harpy.
You should specify if it can talk or use fine manipulation (IIRC, it can do neither), and that it has four legs (which matters when being tripped).

Hellish maw now scales up to 4d6
Ability names bolded
The hell hound does have a racial bonus to hide and move silently. I felt the bonus helped with the stalking aspect of their hunter nature
as for savage and trip, the hell hound isn't capable of fine manipulation, so its a little restricting. I though it should be good at what it does(bringing down its enemies and tearing them to pieces
I've given them the ability limit the range of their howl, but the max range is still the same and the duration has increased. The full range might not be to appropriate for dungeon crawls but it will induce dread in the people of an unfortunate village
Ive specified about their speech and motor functions

Volthawk

2010-08-07, 08:13 AM

So, any other problems with the wolf?

GenKumon

2010-08-07, 11:18 AM

I would like to make a request...the lowly Krenshar! Yes, yes, I know...no hands, no talking makes RPing a...challenge, to say the least. But that's half the fun. Besides, it's a big fuzzy skull-headed kitty/hyena. What's not to love about it? Really been wanting to try playing one, but the +2 LA seems a bit much, considering it's downsides. So, I give it to you folks. Thanks in advance.

Volthawk

2010-08-07, 12:51 PM

Well, I felt like making another class, and the Lantern Archon caught my eye.
---------------

Lantern Archon

http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderRPG/PZO1112-PreviewMonster5.jpg

HD:d6
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+0 |+ 2| +0| Body of Light, Light Ray, Lesser Guide
2|+ 2|+0 |+ 3| +0| Archon, Holy Warding, Aura of Menace, Greater Guide
[/table]

Skills:4+int modifier per level, Class skills are Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Heal, Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot

Proficiencies: The Lantern Archon is proficient with its light rays.

Features:

Body of Light: The Lantern Archon loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basicaly dark vision 60 ft), as well as low-light vision. Lantern Archons are tiny outsiders. Lantern Archons have no land speed but have a fly speed of 20ft, increasing by 5ft per HD. They also glow, giving light as brightly as a torch. Only their destruction can extinguish the glow, though they can try to hide it with a DC 15 Disguise check. Success means that no light is given out by the archon for 1 hour per HD. The Lantern Archon gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. Lantern Archons lack fine manipulation, and cannot wield equipment. It also lacks the Hide bonus from it's size, unless it hides its light.

Light Ray: The Lantern Archon's method of attack are it's light rays. The Lantern Archon starts with one ray, but gains one more for every 5HD ti possesses. The rays have a range of 20ft, increasing by 5ft for every HD the Lantern Archon possesses. The rays start out dealing 1d6 damage, increasing by 1d6 for every 3HD the Archon possesses. The light rays also overcome all DR, and count as natural weapons.

Lesser Guide: The Lantern archon can use aid, continual flame, detect evil and [1]Mage Hand[/i] as SLAs, DC=10+1/2HD+Cha mod. Unless the lantern archon uses the 50Gp of ruby dust, his continual flames just last 1 minute per CL instead of being permanent. If it multiclasses into cleric it can count its lantern archon levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a lantern archon 2 who took 1 level of cleric could choose to have CL 4, get 1 2nd level spell slot. She wouldn't get the spell slots of a cleric 2 however. She would get the turn undead ability, but lantern archon levels wouldn't count for it.

Archon: At second level, the Lantern Archon becomes immune to petrification and gains a resistance to electricity equal to its HD, and a bonus to saves against poison equal to half it's HD. They also gain the good and lawful subtype.

Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds archons that fight or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of an archon must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC is 10+HD+Cha mod. Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the archon that generated the aura. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same archon’s aura for 24 hours.

Holy Warding (Su): At second level, the Lantern Archon gains DR/good and magic equal to half it's HD. It is also permanently affected by a Protection from Evil effect, which upgrades to a Magic Circle against Evil effect at 4HD. This effect is centered on the lantern archon.

Greater Guide: The lantern archon can use teleport as a SLA 1/day for each 4HD it has. At 13th level, this ability upgrades to greater teleport. It can also use tongues on itself as a SLA 1/day for each HD it has.

Comments

Well, I took cues from the hound archon for the archon abilities. I made the light rays progress slower than Eldritch Blast, and gave out extra rays as extra iterative attacks became available. I made the magic circle only become that strong at 4HD, as that's when the Hound Archon gains it.